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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Stealth3si on January 26, 2010, 11:32:59 pm
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The popular imagination paints 'heaven' as some sort of place with clouds and blues and odd lights. But we confess merely that we believe in the Resurrection, that there is continuity between what the present is and what the future will be. It will be "better" -- redeemed, matured, and so on -- but there is no reason to think that there won't be Best Buy and San Diego, CA in the Resurrection. There's no reason to think we won't have guitars and houses and cheeseburgers.
Heaven is not the hope of the Christian. It is not our final destination. It is not what we should be striving towards. The Resurrection is the hope of the Christian and a renewed and redeemed earth is our final destination. I highly recommend anyone who is interested to read NT Wright's Surprised by Hope on this subject.
I think that today's Christianity focuses too heavily on "going to Heaven" when you die, and not enough on the true hope of our faith, the Resurrection, which Jesus Christ initiated 2,000 years ago. True "Heaven" is the perfect, eternal state described above in Revelation 21-22, not floating about on a cloud playing a harp. 'Heaven' comes to an Earth-reborn and all is set to rights - sin and death are destroyed forever. This is our true hope!
I don't know what state a Christian is in from death until the Resurrection; I don't think the scriptures are particularly clear on that. A lot of the text is taken out of context to describe the intermediate state, when actually it applies only to the eternal Resurrected state. My best guess is that the saints (physically deceased Christians) are somehow conscious and with Christ in some way. They may have some kind of heavenly body (their true body is raised at the Resurrection) or they may exist in some spiritual form, who knows?
Or they may simply be "asleep" until the Resurrection, as the Jews and early Christians understood it. By the writing of Revelation though (62 or 90AD, depending on if you are a partial-preterist or not) , the thought seems to have advanced to the point where the departed saints have a consciousness - in the vision John mentions the saints crying out, having white robes, etc. It may be metaphorical or it may be literal, though. After all, it's a "vision" not necessarily a photograph, as they say. An "impression" or an artist's rendition of an actual event, not a journalistically/scientifically accurate depiction.
Even if it's the former (consciousness and some kind of physical state), I believe the saints will still comprehend that the intermediate state is just that - intermediate. The true hope is the Resurrection, and while the departed saints aren't sinful anymore in their current state, they aren't whole yet either because all has not been put to rights yet. I believe that if the departed saints in the intermediate state are conscious, that they are able to see what is going on "down here", are able to worship and converse with Jesus and inquire as to the goings-on "down below", but they still don't have the full knowledge of what's going to happen next. The veil has been lifted, they don't live in the same cloud we do, but they are not all-knowing. The "portals" to perceive what's happening "down here" may come and go, or they may be constant, who knows. I've always wondered (if this notion is accurate) if my Christian ancestors (or anyone, for that matter), can "look down" and see me going to the bathroom, or farting when no one is around, or hear what I'm thinking at any given moment...or helping a stranger when no one else notices. I wonder how much they are shown, if anything. If they are even conscious.
The nearest analogy I can think of is someone who goes through a pitch-black maze successfully, then taken to a back room and allowed to watch through night-vision cameras another person attempt the same maze. They have a different view on things, but they can't intervene or communicate with the person, and they can't determine or predict the outcome. But they can discuss the maze with the Designer and inquire about why there is darkness, why it was made so difficult, etc.
In any case, the intermediate state between death for a Christian, and the final Resurrection will (if we are conscious for it) be infinitely better than life "on Earth", but still nothing compared to the future glory. Of that we can be sure.
If anyone has read Randy Alcorn's novels, I think he has a pretty biblical and sound grasp on all this, especially what the intermediate state is probably like. Take with a grain of salt - he's coming from a specific theological background (as we all are), and of course there are literary liberties taken, but on the whole it at least changed my perception of the state we as Christians are in when we pass and await the Resurrection.
As for "hell," fascinatingly enough, I don't think it being a place, condition or both (more than most dilemmas offer!) are even remotely close to telling the whole story. Even stranger, I don't think "neither" would really do the trick either. If I had to attempt to consolidate the entire idea into one descriptive word, it might be an " 'un'place " by which I mean something similar to what C. S. Lewis meant when he named the antagonist in Perelandra the "unman". Whereas Weston became the Unman after everything that could be identified as human was summarily taken away, I think hell is sort of analagous to an "unplace" insofar as anything typically associated with "somewhere"--life, activity, people, surroundings, etc--is almost entirely absent. Hell is described in Scripture as being very nebulously located, as being the "outer darkness" (some "place" that is just "out there" where no one cares to look), as being associated with death and the grave ("places" no living, moving, acting soul knows anything about), etc. A place is where something is, but hell is defined by being apart, or rather, it can't be defined so much by where it is as much as it can by where it isn't. In that sense, it is very much unlike our concept of a location or a place, where we can give you directions or coordinates or some other method for finding it. Hell, however, we can only "locate" by giving a sense of general direction, "out there" in the darkness, "down there" in the grave, etc... and it's always associated with these kinds of ideas that typically connote ambiguity, hiddenness, unidentifiability, etc..
If it makes sense to talk about spiritual "places," dimensions in the spiritual realm seem to exist based on descriptions. There seem to be all four dimensions present in the spiritual realm in all recorded accounts of them. In fact existence in the spiritual realm implies that there be some form of dimensionality. Whether spiritual is something other than physical, yet with spatial dimensions (+ time) being mentioned, I really don't know all the answers, but to say the spiritual world exists is to say it has existence on a fundamental level. For it to exist, there must be dimensions in which it exists. In recorded visions and prophecies and such it seems to operate much in the same way the physical realm operates. It seems to me like its an almost separate set of dimensions with definite relationship to each other. Almost as if it is a realm in the physical that we cannot normally interact with.
Still, I find it hard to comprehend the spiritual world in any kind of literal, physical framework, of the sort which would have such things as dimensions and directions. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really think that the archangel Michael was literally running the gauntlet through Persia on his way to Daniel, in the Frank Peretti sense, was he? Is heaven really "up", or hell really "down", or is that simply a symbolic understanding of where we are in the scheme of things...
Making sense of the Biblical imagery used for heaven and hell, then, in a "not-quite-literal" sense, heaven is the place characterized by perfection, beauty, wholeness, joy, healing, life, justice and peace (shalom!). It's symbolic. It's where everything that is wrong down here is gone, and everything that is right is even more right. And Hell, then, is the outer darkness. It is where every dim little light that shines in this fallen world is absent. Where even hope for the future is gone. Where we are tormented with that loss, that hopelessness, that never-ending guilt, in a way that "eternal flame" only scratches the surface of. It is being gone from the rest of Creation in every meaningful way.
By the way, an interesting book on the subject of hell and judgment is Brian McLaren's The Last Word, and the Word After That, which is the third book in the "New Kind of Christian" trilogy.
Just as one of the characters in the book, I would challenge us all to study not only the doctrine of hell over the history of the church, but also the history of the doctrine of hell over the history of the church, and indeed the history of hell (or the afterlife, judgment, etc.) over the course of human history, from the Babylonians to the Greeks to the Romans to the Jews and so on. It was really interesting to see how our understanding (as humans and as Christians) has evolved over the centuries and millenia.
A lot of our conceptions about what hell is like, I'm afraid, are more informed by Dante's Inferno and pop culture than by the historical, social, and religious contexts the scriptures were written and compiled in. In other words, I'm afraid a lot of the time we apply our 21st -century understandings and "baggage" when it comes to hell (or any other topic for that matter) to the first-century context and wonder why it doesn't fit.
To sum up, as I heard Tim Keller say recently, "I think that the 'hellfire and brimstone' imagery is certainly metaphorical. The reality is undoubtedly much, much worse".
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Awesome man I just want to thank you for having the guts to talk about faith and religion and for being prepared to accept scrutiny. Good job man.
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You're welcome and thank you! ;D
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I already have seen some of the junk that I don't ever want to see again. We have a choice folks, it is now or never, we can accept what the Lord has done for us, or meet our fait. We are all sinners and have to know that, there is only one way, and Jesus paid the price for us. If you don't believe that, your destiny is sealed.
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i know heaven is real and if you live your life right you would go there and for others who continue to do wrong they will go otherwise.
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I do not believe that there is a heaven. Death will be emotionless. You will exist one second and the next you will not. There is nothing after that.
I think that many people want to believe in an afterlife because the thought that they will cease to exist is too frightening. Also, they can use heaven as a reward for doing good and hell as punishment. But if someone is only doing good to get a reward, are they actually doing good? In my opinion, no. That is like donating money to charity because you are forced to. Yes - it helps others. But their intentions are misplaced.
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Eh, these are the type of things I'd rather not think about. There is too much going on in present life, to think of what the afterlife is all about.
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I think Heaven IS "HEAVEN" and Hell IS "HELL". I think it's a shame that many people put so much thought and planning into their lives on earth (college educations, financial planning, life insurance and wills, etc.) yet fail to put much thought into their eternal destination and neglect to plan for their eternity. Earth and it's "things" are all TEMPORARY. "Eternity" IS ETERNITY. If one planned for their eternity with as much regard as they plan their earthly lives...what a great thing! :angel11:
i totally agree,,, i now i personally really never thought about it much but after my mom passed away, it changed my whole mind set..
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This depiction of Hell as a place that non-Christians go to be punished for all eternity was invented by the Catholic Church to scare people into believing in their religion, much the same way as Mohammed threatened punishment by sword. "Eternal damnation" is in no way referenced in the bible as anything other than a separation from God, Sheol in Hebrew.
Show me scripture that says differently and I'll show you that it does not. Christians should make a stronger effort to understand their spiritual teachings rather than just relying on popularized doctrine.
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This depiction of Hell as a place that non-Christians go to be punished for all eternity was invented by the Catholic Church to scare people into believing in their religion
If you're saying the idea of God pouring out extra punishment in a place called hell is total misinterpretation, then I can easily show you this is bogus.
much the same way as Mohammed threatened punishment by sword.
Non-sequitor.
"Eternal damnation" is in no way referenced in the bible as anything other than a separation from God
Do you have any scriptural basis for hell being "eternal separation from God"?
God's presence will be very real to those who are in hell, for He will be pouring out His wrath on those who reside there for all eternity.
Sheol in Hebrew.
Sheol isn't hell, it is the deep place where the dead go to sleep. The whole heaven/hell thing hadn't really been revealed (although David seemed to have some understanding of a resurrection) as our options so that is how death was viewed in Hebrew culture.
Besides, hell isn't being apart from God in terms of literal presence, but in terms of relationship. There is no favorable presence of God there, but His wrath is present, and that is what makes it so horrible.
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A figment of someones creative mind!
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This depiction of Hell as a place that non-Christians go to be punished for all eternity was invented by the Catholic Church to scare people into believing in their religion
If you're saying the idea of God pouring out extra punishment in a place called hell is total misinterpretation, then I can easily show you this is bogus.
Extra punishment, besides oblivion? Yes, show me how this is "bogus" so I can educate you.
"Eternal damnation" is in no way referenced in the bible as anything other than a separation from God
Do you have any scriptural basis for hell being "eternal separation from God"?
Quite a lot, actually. I made it my main point of focus when I first split off from Christianity to begin my true spiritual journey. I'll be more than happy to share once my notes are in front of me. I think you'll see I take nothing out of context, so have no fear.
God's presence will be very real to those who are in hell, for He will be pouring out His wrath on those who reside there for all eternity.
Oh I'm gonna have to disabuse you of that notion.
Sheol isn't hell, it is the deep place where the dead go to sleep.
Sheol is the only word used in the bible to reference Hell or the afterlife as anything other than a burning lake of fire.
Please don't come in here and claim that Jesus' mentions of "Hell" (Gehenna) was intended as anything other than a metaphor, but even that metaphor was accurate enough. Non-Christians will burn, surely, but not indefinitely. That's just absurd. To believe as much is to believe in a God that would burn the children He loves, not just to end them but to torturethem for all eternity! What kind of God is this that you expect the masses to follow? If we're to compare the love of the Father to an actual biological father only infinitely more profound, then how can you claim with a straight face that this Father would subject us to such a punishment rather than just end it with mercy? If your son left your home and never spoke to you again, would you wish this type of agony on him as a means of eternal punishment? The God spoken of by Jesus Christ would not allow as much, and frankly, you do him a disservice by attempting to plant that notion into other people's minds.
I can back everything I said here with scripture. In fact it would be a pleasure.
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The answer is in the Bible. Read it and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
~ John 8:32 ~ & ~ John 14:6 ~
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It's the first Black Sabbath album featuring Ronnie James Dio on vocals. Quite good.
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I think Heaven good, Hell Bad, kapish?javascript:void(0);
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This depiction of Hell as a place that non-Christians go to be punished for all eternity was invented by the Catholic Church to scare people into believing in their religion
If you're saying the idea of God pouring out extra punishment in a place called hell is total misinterpretation, then I can easily show you this is bogus.
Extra punishment, besides oblivion? Yes, show me how this is "bogus" so I can educate you.
A preface like this makes you come across a bit condescending, don't you think?
"Eternal damnation" is in no way referenced in the bible as anything other than a separation from God
Do you have any scriptural basis for hell being "eternal separation from God"?
Quite a lot, actually.
Basis?
Sounds like anti-scriptural rubbish to me, since there is no verse to indicate hell is eternal separation from God. There are places where they are being described as cast out into outer darkness, but nowhere does this imply a separation from God, as parables never regard the person being cast away from as God. He is cast in a different role in each parable. Indeed, God as host of a wedding supper will be far from them, but that never implies a separation from God. To do so would be to force a parable far beyond its point. Similar language does not indicate one to one correspondence. Parables are not 1 to 1, they are analogy, and only in certain points is their point applicable.
I made it my main point of focus when I first split off from Christianity to begin my true spiritual journey.
If you're purporting to have biblical evidence to suggest God is not in Hell, then I would say it's a myth someone invented, as there are a few passages of scripture that would need to be taken into consideration before one could say, "Hell is eternal separation from God." Like...
Psalm 139:7-8
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
Jeremiah 23:24
24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD. "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the Lord.
Proverbs 15:3
3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, Watching the evil and the good.
1 Kings 8:27
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built! [Solomon speaking in reference to the Lord's temple]
There are other verses, but the basic premise is this: if I believe that God's presence is not limited, isn't God in hell? If God is "omnipresent", isn't He present in a place of His own creation: hell? If we think about it from a logical standpoint, why give the reprobate, who hate God and want nothing to do with him, what they want. God will be ever present in Hell as he pours out his wrath on the condemned. Yes, God is in hell, pouring His wrath upon the reprobate. We have to be careful about viewing God as some mist, able to inhabit areas spatially, like we are. God is above our concepts of space and time. As there aren't a whole lot of places that an omnipresent god isn't.
The only argument that I think might be able to be made here is the age-old statement, "God cannot be in the presence of sin." Almost as if God is allergic to it or something. I could see that God cannot sin, nor can He tempt others.(James 1:13) I think rather, it should be said that sin cannot be in the presence of God, at least not without consequences.
I'll be more than happy to share once my notes are in front of me.
If your notes talk about the Christian salvation and faith, then I'd rather hear how you'd answer these:
1. Why do you not need God (in terms of salvation)?
2. What was the purpose of creating the Earth?
3. What is faith?
I think you'll see I take nothing out of context, so have no fear.
I'm afraid I think I'll have to take your context *bleep* grano salis.
God's presence will be very real to those who are in hell, for He will be pouring out His wrath on those who reside there for all eternity.
Oh I'm gonna have to disabuse you of that notion.
Sheol isn't hell, it is the deep place where the dead go to sleep.
Sheol is the only word used in the bible to reference Hell or the afterlife as anything other than a burning lake of fire.
To a certain degree, I don't disagree.
'Hell' in this context is sheol/hades, the abode of the dead.
Acts 2:31
he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. [referring to Psalm 16]
Romans 10:7
or " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Therefore it says,
"When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men."
9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) [Referring to Psalm 68]
And therefore:
Revelation 1:17-18
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
However, Sheol is not the same as hell in a strict sense. Hell is normatively used to describe the lake of fire which is a place that is described as a place of eternal punishment and not annihilation. The Bible, and especially the NT, teaches that hell, the lake of fire, is a place of eternal punishment. We may not know what that punishment is completely, but Scripture teaches that it is eternal punishment. Any other concept of hell is heresy.
Please don't come in here and claim that Jesus' mentions of "Hell" (Gehenna) was intended as anything other than a metaphor, but even that metaphor was accurate enough.
Are you aware that hell was one of the primary topics of Jesus? Christ talks about it quite a lot and not just by metaphor. He gives a lot of specific statements about hell.
Non-Christians will burn, surely, but not indefinitely. That's just absurd.
I'd love to see you support this statement, which is contrary to 2000 years of church history.
There are people I've heard of who come in and try to put a spin on the scriptures, water it down or change what God says, "They'll probably go to hell for a few thousand years and then once they'll pay their debt and then they'll be free" or "God talks about hell but it's sort of a myth because he wants to scare people into being right. 'Scared Straight.'" or "God talks tough like he's really going to punish people but when it really comes down to it he's gonna say, 'aw com'on. I can't send anybody to hell. Let's all go to heaven.'"
Well, I don't think that's true. Satan, all his demonic creatures and the beast and the false prophets are going to go the lake of fire forever and ever and man who has not received the one way of salvation.
To believe as much is to believe in a God that would burn the children He loves, not just to end them but to torturethem for all eternity! What kind of God is this that you expect the masses to follow?
Non-sequitor. It is not those who are God's sons (children), who suffer torment eternally, it is those who are not sons. God, the Father, does not torture any of His sons.
If we're to compare the love of the Father to an actual biological father only infinitely more profound, then how can you claim with a straight face that this Father would subject us to such a punishment rather than just end it with mercy? If your son left your home and never spoke to you again, would you wish this type of agony on him as a means of eternal punishment?
Strawman. God punishes, or rather, chastises or disciplines, His children, but He does not send them into eternal torment. Those who face eternal torment are those who are not the sons of God.
The God spoken of by Jesus Christ would not allow as much, and frankly, you do him a disservice by attempting to plant that notion into other people's minds.
Ad hominen, and frankly, this is false accusation.
I can back everything I said here with scripture. In fact it would be a pleasure.
You just used a lot of words to say nothing. Do you believe in annihilationism?
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You should really talk to my mom about this stuff, she has some interesting theories. Anyways, the only reason people think "heaven" = "clouds" is because the heavens (space) is up, and in between the heavens and where we stand is clouds. I don't believe that Heaven is on Clouds, as the Bible says "Streets of Gold" not "Streets made of clouds". This is a theory that my mom had. God is not a being, he is a consciousness, that exists in an indefinite form. In this sense, it kind of makes sense, as how the Bible says he made us in his image, he means spiritual image, not physical image. The Bible also mentions how someone in heaven could see someone in hell, saying that they are close together. My mom believes, that Heaven exists on earth, in a spiritual form, and Hell exists below earth (or inside earth). That I don't believe myself. I can't tell you where Heaven nor Hell are, but I do believe that they are in the universe, as "the universe contains everything". On top of that, angels and humans/human spirits are two different things. Angels existed before humans did, with God, whereas humans existed on earth. I don't believe that after death, we can necessarily see people on earth, or do anything about it, as angels can. The same goes for those who go to Hell.
(times like these, I hate having a limited attention span)
Anyways, since I lost my train of thought, that's pretty much what I believe. I believe that Heaven and Hell exist side-by-side, if they aren't in the same, and that those who die don't become angels, as angels were in heaven already. I believe that demons, or fallen angels as some might say (as they sided with Satan) can exist on earth, and do harm to people. I don't believe in a place called purgatory, as there is nothing of this said in the bible. I DO believe that Christ will return to the world shortly.
For those who are Christian, or those that are interested about Christianity, or those who just feel like watching it
I recommend a Title called "Time Changers" It's about a Christian man from the time of 1890 is 'transported' in time, and is able to see the world as it is now. When he returns he tells his friend who sent him forward in time about how it was described in revelations of the end of times.
Anyways, if you want to know more about it, you can check into it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Changer
It was an interesting movie, and I liked it, and thought you would be interested in it, too.
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Hell being "in the earth" is an urban legend. The crust of the earth has never even been broken through, not even at the big hole, the Kimberly Mine in South Africa. The mantle is many times thicker than the crust.
And, theories litter the world of Christianity but what does Scripture say? Are the theories you just presented grounded in a more biblical matter or denote a pattern within scripture?
Also, your description of God is Gnosticism. Not Christianity.
As for "Time Changer," I'd seen it when the DVD came out. I liked it too, for a Christian film. www.christiancinema.com (http://www.christiancinema.com) is a great place to get movies for the "Christian-minded" person. They distribute movies but they are also the company responsible for Mercy Streets, The Moment After, Lay It Down, Time Changer as well as several others.
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I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A HELL. You will just not have the chance to meet with GOd, and as far as Heaven goes, I believe you get the greatest gift of all and that is meeting god and having all your dreams come true!!! :angel11: :angel11: :)
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That looks like an incoherent view of an afterlife.
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All I know is I want to go to HEAVEN - Heard great things about Heaven - I get to meet Jesus :D :notworthy:
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I think "heaven" is a state of mind...and "hell" is my ex...
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I don't think they exist at all.
:peace: