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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: walksalone11 on August 23, 2010, 09:00:22 pm
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Fallout of Hate Is Spreading Across America from 9/11 Site
By Joshua Holland
Scientists building the first atomic bomb at Los Alamos referred to the coordinates where a test device was detonated as “point zero.” When the horror of nuclear warfare was unleashed on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the term “Ground Zero” entered our lexicon. The expression has come to mean the epicenter of a catastrophic event, be it a nuclear detonation, a disease epidemic or an earthquake. It is the point from which damage spreads, whether it’s radioactive fallout or a deadly contagion.
That the site of the World Trade Center has come to be known as Ground Zero illustrates how the American public has come to fetishize the attacks of 9/11. It’s not an apt analog for the physical destruction that resulted from the attacks on the World Trade Center. But it is an appropriate metaphor for the virulent and socially acceptable bigotry against Muslim Americans that has radiated out from Ground Zero and spread across the United States.
One thing is clear: the feverish discourse about Muslims’ role in American society is not about the proposal to build an Islamic community center a couple of blocks from the World Trade Center site. Park 51, as it’s being called, merely let an ugly genie out of the bottle. The dark stain of Islamophobia had spread far and wide long before the controversy erupted.
In May, a man walked into the Jacksonville Islamic Center in Northeast Florida during evening prayers and detonated a pipebomb. Fortunately, there were no injuries. (If the man had been Muslim and the House of worship a Christian church, the incident would have garnered wall-to-wall coverage, but while the story got plenty of local press it was ignored by CBS News, Fox, CNN and MSNBC.)
It was the most serious of a series of incidents in which mosques far from the supposedly hallowed earth of Ground Zero have been targeted. A mosque in Miami, Florida, was sprayed with gunfire last year. Mosques have been vandalized or set aflame in Brownstown, Michigan; Nashville, Tennessee; Arlington, Texas (where the mosque was first vandalized and then later targeted by arsonists); Taylor, South Carolina; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Eugene, Oregon; Cape Girardeau, Missouri; Tempe, Arizona; and in both Northern and Southern California. A mosque in a suburb of Chicago has been vandalized four times in recent years.
In May, an Arab man was brutally beaten in broad daylight in New York by four young men. According to the victim’s nephew, "They used the bad word. 'The mother bleeping Muslim, go back to your country.' They started beating him and after that he don't know what happened.” A Muslim woman in Chicago was assaulted by another woman who took offense at her headscarf. A Muslim teacher in Florida was sent a white powdery substance in the mail. In San Diego, a man in his 50s became so incensed by the sight of an American of Afghan descent praying that he assaulted him after screaming, “You idiot, you mother f**ker, go back to where you came from."
The perpetrators of these hate crimes are clearly unhinged, but they’re not operating in a vacuum. They’re being whipped into a frenzy by cynical fearmongers on the Right. Writing for Tablet magazine, Daniel Luban astutely calls the dark spread of Islamophobia, “the new Anti-Semitism.”
Many of the tropes of classic anti-Semitism have been revived and given new force on the American right. Once again jingoistic politicians and commentators posit a religious conspiracy breeding within Western society, pledging allegiance to an alien power, conspiring with allies at the highest levels of government to overturn the existing order. Because the propagators of these conspiracy theories are not anti-Semitic but militantly pro-Israel, and because their targets are not Jews but Muslims, the ADL and other Jewish groups have had little to say about them. But since the election of President Barack Obama, this Islamophobic discourse has rapidly intensified.
In Tennessee, an elected official, Lieutenant Governor Ron Ramsey, suggested that Muslims shouldn’t be accorded the freedom of religion guaranteed by the First Amendment. “Now, you could even argue whether being a Muslim is actually a religion, or is it a nationality, way of life, cult whatever you want to call it," he said. Eric Cantor, R-Virginia, the House’s second-ranking Republican, said of the Ground Zero controversy, “America's built on the rights of free expression, the rights to practice your faith, but come on.” (Reporter Eric Kleefeld wrote that Cantor was invoking the "’come on’ exception to America's freedom of religion.”)
An Oklahoma lawmaker is pushing a ballot measure “that would prohibit courts from considering international or sharia law when deciding cases.” He said it was a "preemptive strike" against "liberal judges" who want to "undermine those founding principles" of America. Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich compared the organizers of the Park 51 project in downtown Manhattan (including the imam who was sent by none other than George W. Bush to represent the United States in its outreach to the Muslim world) with the Nazis. The American Family Association’s Bryan Fischer, a prominent figure within the religious Right, argued that “permits should not be granted to build even one more mosque in the United States of America” because “each Islamic mosque is dedicated to the overthrow of the American government.” Just weeks after the mosque bombing in Florida, right-wing talk-radio host Michael Berry told his audience, “If you do build a mosque, I hope somebody blows it up. … I hope the mosque isn’t built, and if it is, I hope it’s blown up. And I mean that.” He added: “It’s right-wing radicals like me that are going to keep this country safe for you and everyone else.”
The results of these incessant smears are predictable. According to a poll commissioned by Time magazine, one in three Americans believes that Muslims should be barred from running for president; a similar number said they’d oppose the construction of a mosque in their own neighborhood, and almost three in 10 said Muslims shouldn’t be allowed to serve on the Supreme Court.
According to the New York Times, “Opposition to new mosques has become almost commonplace.” During a public hearing with Muslim leaders to discuss a proposed mosque on Staten Island, miles from Manhattan, “the tenor of the inquiry became so fraught that the meeting eventually collapsed in shouting around 11pm, prompting the police and security guards to ask everyone to leave.” The Times’ account of what happened before the cops broke up the fracas is telling. “The meeting’s single moment of hushed silence” came when a Marine who had served two tours in Afghanistan working as a mediator with local tribes took the microphone.
After the sustained standing ovation that followed his introduction, he turned to the Muslims on the panel: “My question to you is, will you work to form a cohesive bond with the people of this community?” The men said yes.
Then he turned to the crowd. “And will you work to form a cohesive bond with these people — your new neighbors?”
The crowd erupted in boos. “No!” someone shouted.
It’s ugly, and it can only get worse as Republicans seek to “nationalize” the issue in time for the midterm elections. (According to The Hill, John Cornyn, R-Texas, the chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee “believes the mosque set to be built near Ground Zero in New York City will be a campaign issue this fall.”) Right-wingers have started referring to the Park 51 project as “the Obamosque.” They see fear and loathing of Islam as a potent social issue in an era when overtly racist messages invite a political backlash and gay-bashing is gaining less traction among voters. And with prominent Democrats like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada caving in to the hateful rhetoric, bigotry against American Muslims is becoming an acceptable and bipartisan affair.
It’s an extraordinarily dangerous game, not only for the American Muslim community but for U.S. national security as well. Ali Soufan, a former FBI agent who has interrogated several dangerous terrorists, wrote this week that “when demagogues appear to be equating Islam with terrorism” it reinforces “the message that radicalizers are selling: That the war is against Islam, and Muslims are not welcome in America.” He added: “from a national security perspective, our leaders need to understand that no one is likely to be happier with the opposition to building a mosque than Osama Bin Laden. His next video script has just written itself.”
Fortunately, the hysteria over the Islamic center in downtown Manhattan has produced no fatal attacks to date. But as the rhetoric continues to get hotter, good people -- those who embrace American values of pluralism and religious liberty -- need to stand up to the hate and confront these views before we have a body count on our hands, not after.
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Thank you for posting this.
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This is an amazing post.
"from a national security perspective, our leaders need to understand that no one is likely to be happier with the opposition to building a mosque than Osama Bin Laden. His next video script has just written itself.”
Exactly. Everyone touts 9/11 and how the world is against us, but what we need to realize is that our actions as a country just add fuel to that anti-American fire.
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This is an amazing post.
"from a national security perspective, our leaders need to understand that no one is likely to be happier with the opposition to building a mosque than Osama Bin Laden. His next video script has just written itself.”
Exactly. Everyone touts 9/11 and how the world is against us, but what we need to realize is that our actions as a country just add fuel to that anti-American fire.
That is so true!!
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copy/paste
Nobody cares, troll.
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
Of course it's only Republicans that oppose this right? WRONG.
Should America have rolled over and let Al Qaeda continue to attack and bring the war to our land?
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
Of course it's only Republicans that oppose this right? WRONG.
Should America have rolled over and let Al Qaeda continue to attack and bring the war to our land?
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
Consider the strawman beaten.
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OMG DID U HERE THAT THE MUSLIMS R GONNA USE TEH MOSK AS A PLACE TO BUILD BOMBS??? ITS TROO I JUST HERD IT ON FOX NEWS
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
Of course it's only Republicans that oppose this right? WRONG.
Should America have rolled over and let Al Qaeda continue to attack and bring the war to our land?
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
Consider the strawman beaten.
In no way did I make the issue into something it's not, you just simply don't want to have to answer any questions you can't answer. In no way was my post built on lies or misrepresentations. Maybe you should find something useful to say instead of wasting space trying to offend people. You're not going to offend me, just because you disagree with me in no way makes me wrong. If you can't defend your position then expect to lose the argument. Period.
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
It is natural for Americans to fear terrorism...hate the sin, not the sinner, right? It wasn't Islam that brought down the towers; it was a whack job named Osama bin Laden...who (I am no way insinuating that this is your opinion, but the misconception runs rampant in this country) is being sheltered by Afghanistan, not Iraq. http://www.gwjokes.com/cartoons/clearlink.php
The more this country "fears Muslims" the more we add fuel to the fire of hatred toward our country, and the more we "prove" what they already know, i.e. we want to destroy Islam. Al-Qaeda ideologues envision a complete break from the foreign influences in Muslim countries, and the creation of a new Islamic caliphate. Reported beliefs include that a Christian-Jewish alliance is conspiring to destroy Islam,[11] which is largely embodied in the U.S.-Israel alliance, and that the killing of bystanders and civilians is religiously justified in jihad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
Is this because he is Muslim? If he was any other religion, would this worry be as valid?
Of course it's only Republicans that oppose this right? WRONG.
Of course, it is not only Republicans that oppose this...but they are the most vocal in their opposition. I think it is vital to start the healing process in this country to do something of this sort. Of course, if the decision were mine, we would have in place a religious/historical/multi-cultural center that was dedicated to educating about ALL religions and any historical inaccuracies (such as the way we gloss over what happened to the indigenous in this country when it was settled) because this is the land of the free, but to be truly free, you must know your history.
Should America have rolled over and let Al Qaeda continue to attack and bring the war to our land?
I view this as extreme. We have a right to defend ourselves and to search out the ones that attacked us...but...the ones that attacked us were militant extremists...not all Muslims.
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
Here is the link for the Cordoba Initiative and Park 51. On there you will find statements in favor of the Community Center (note...it isn't Just.A.Mosque) and videos regarding it. http://www.cordobainitiative.org/
Anti-Muslim sentiment is rampant in this country. If Park 51 isn't a good place to start that healing process, then I am not sure what is going to happen in this country...at this rate, we are just inviting al Qaeda to attack again.
Feds investigate fire at site of future Tennessee mosque
A fire at the future site of a mosque in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, is under investigation but "you can reasonably make the assumption" that it was arson, an FBI spokesman told CNN Sunday. "The evidence is being analyzed to see what the origin of the fire was," Keith Moses, an assistant special agent with the FBI in Nashville, told CNN Sunday. "We have to follow the facts." The fire, which struck early Saturday morning at the future site of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, is under investigation by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the Rutherford County Sheriff's Office. The fire consumed an earth mover and damaged three other vehicles, according to Camie Ayash, a spokesperson for the mosque. Ayash said that the Mufreesboro Fire Department told her that the vehicles had been doused with an accelerant.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/29/feds-investigate-fire-at-site-of-future-tennessee-mosque/
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
Of course it's only Republicans that oppose this right? WRONG.
Should America have rolled over and let Al Qaeda continue to attack and bring the war to our land?
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
Consider the strawman beaten.
In no way did I make the issue into something it's not, you just simply don't want to have to answer any questions you can't answer. In no way was my post built on lies or misrepresentations. Maybe you should find something useful to say instead of wasting space trying to offend people. You're not going to offend me, just because you disagree with me in no way makes me wrong. If you can't defend your position then expect to lose the argument. Period.
In actuality, the space that it takes to post and store a reply on this one out of thousands of topics on this site, out of the millions of message boards on the world-wide interwebs, it is comparatively very small. Think less than 1/10 of a MegaByte or so.
So if it's my "wasting space" that you are concerned about, I urge you to find something better to be E-angry with.
I believe Carl Champly is allready all over that whole Wasted Spaces thing on DIY... 8)
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
if you consider the terrorists in the same category as your normal muslim, then every christian should be imprisoned for being a murderer, because Tim McVeigh and the KKK are christians. Which... by association... means the Pope, is actually the Emperor of the Sith, who is bent on galactic domination.
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
if you consider the terrorists in the same category as your normal muslim, then every christian should be imprisoned for being a murderer, because Tim McVeigh and the KKK are christians. Which... by association... means the Pope, is actually the Emperor of the Sith, who is bent on galactic domination.
LOL...I love Star Wars references.
But, hey...much anti-Semitism stems from the belief that it was the Jews who killed Jesus. So, I'm a de facto killer, too, I guess. I hope no one here is afraid of me and wishes my temple burned to the ground... ;)
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
if you consider the terrorists in the same category as your normal muslim, then every christian should be imprisoned for being a murderer, because Tim McVeigh and the KKK are christians. Which... by association... means the Pope, is actually the Emperor of the Sith, who is bent on galactic domination.
LOL...I love Star Wars references.
But, hey...much anti-Semitism stems from the belief that it was the Jews who killed Jesus. So, I'm a de facto killer, too, I guess. I hope no one here is afraid of me and wishes my temple burned to the ground... ;)
Wasn't Jebus 'sposed to have been Jewish, as well?
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
if you consider the terrorists in the same category as your normal muslim, then every christian should be imprisoned for being a murderer, because Tim McVeigh and the KKK are christians. Which... by association... means the Pope, is actually the Emperor of the Sith, who is bent on galactic domination.
LOL...I love Star Wars references.
But, hey...much anti-Semitism stems from the belief that it was the Jews who killed Jesus. So, I'm a de facto killer, too, I guess. I hope no one here is afraid of me and wishes my temple burned to the ground... ;)
Wasn't Jebus 'sposed to have been Jewish, as well?
Yes, he was a Jewish carpenter.
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
if you consider the terrorists in the same category as your normal muslim, then every christian should be imprisoned for being a murderer, because Tim McVeigh and the KKK are christians. Which... by association... means the Pope, is actually the Emperor of the Sith, who is bent on galactic domination.
LOL...I love Star Wars references.
But, hey...much anti-Semitism stems from the belief that it was the Jews who killed Jesus. So, I'm a de facto killer, too, I guess. I hope no one here is afraid of me and wishes my temple burned to the ground... ;)
Wasn't Jebus 'sposed to have been Jewish, as well?
Yes, he was a Jewish carpenter.
apparently not a good one. there is no word ever about him building anything phenomenal. Good thing that savior thing worked out for him. lol
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The fallout of hate has been here long before the proposed mosque near Ground Zero. You can see it everywhere, even in the posts in this forum. I hope someday we can have discussions and debates at all levels - politically, socially, whatever - where people can be civil to one another and not need to have the last word by resorting to put-downs and profanity and hurting other people.
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
Of course it's only Republicans that oppose this right? WRONG.
Should America have rolled over and let Al Qaeda continue to attack and bring the war to our land?
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
Consider the strawman beaten.
In no way did I make the issue into something it's not, you just simply don't want to have to answer any questions you can't answer. In no way was my post built on lies or misrepresentations. Maybe you should find something useful to say instead of wasting space trying to offend people. You're not going to offend me, just because you disagree with me in no way makes me wrong. If you can't defend your position then expect to lose the argument. Period.
In actuality, the space that it takes to post and store a reply on this one out of thousands of topics on this site, out of the millions of message boards on the world-wide interwebs, it is comparatively very small. Think less than 1/10 of a MegaByte or so.
So if it's my "wasting space" that you are concerned about, I urge you to find something better to be E-angry with.
I believe Carl Champly is allready all over that whole Wasted Spaces thing on DIY... 8)
If I was "E-angry" you would know, but if you can't give an intelligent response I'd rather not have to see that you responded at all, waste of time.
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
if you consider the terrorists in the same category as your normal muslim, then every christian should be imprisoned for being a murderer, because Tim McVeigh and the KKK are christians. Which... by association... means the Pope, is actually the Emperor of the Sith, who is bent on galactic domination.
In no way am I saying every Muslim is evil and an Islamic extremist, just that we are only human. And that Rauf has a past history of feeling "hate" from America and his intentions should be investigated.
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
It is natural for Americans to fear terrorism...hate the sin, not the sinner, right? It wasn't Islam that brought down the towers; it was a whack job named Osama bin Laden...who (I am no way insinuating that this is your opinion, but the misconception runs rampant in this country) is being sheltered by Afghanistan, not Iraq. http://www.gwjokes.com/cartoons/clearlink.php
The more this country "fears Muslims" the more we add fuel to the fire of hatred toward our country, and the more we "prove" what they already know, i.e. we want to destroy Islam. Al-Qaeda ideologues envision a complete break from the foreign influences in Muslim countries, and the creation of a new Islamic caliphate. Reported beliefs include that a Christian-Jewish alliance is conspiring to destroy Islam,[11] which is largely embodied in the U.S.-Israel alliance, and that the killing of bystanders and civilians is religiously justified in jihad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
Is this because he is Muslim? If he was any other religion, would this worry be as valid?
Of course it's only Republicans that oppose this right? WRONG.
Of course, it is not only Republicans that oppose this...but they are the most vocal in their opposition. I think it is vital to start the healing process in this country to do something of this sort. Of course, if the decision were mine, we would have in place a religious/historical/multi-cultural center that was dedicated to educating about ALL religions and any historical inaccuracies (such as the way we gloss over what happened to the indigenous in this country when it was settled) because this is the land of the free, but to be truly free, you must know your history.
Should America have rolled over and let Al Qaeda continue to attack and bring the war to our land?
I view this as extreme. We have a right to defend ourselves and to search out the ones that attacked us...but...the ones that attacked us were militant extremists...not all Muslims.
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
Here is the link for the Cordoba Initiative and Park 51. On there you will find statements in favor of the Community Center (note...it isn't Just.A.Mosque) and videos regarding it. http://www.cordobainitiative.org/
Anti-Muslim sentiment is rampant in this country. If Park 51 isn't a good place to start that healing process, then I am not sure what is going to happen in this country...at this rate, we are just inviting al Qaeda to attack again.
Feds investigate fire at site of future Tennessee mosque
A fire at the future site of a mosque in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, is under investigation but "you can reasonably make the assumption" that it was arson, an FBI spokesman told CNN Sunday. "The evidence is being analyzed to see what the origin of the fire was," Keith Moses, an assistant special agent with the FBI in Nashville, told CNN Sunday. "We have to follow the facts." The fire, which struck early Saturday morning at the future site of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, is under investigation by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and the Rutherford County Sheriff's Office. The fire consumed an earth mover and damaged three other vehicles, according to Camie Ayash, a spokesperson for the mosque. Ayash said that the Mufreesboro Fire Department told her that the vehicles had been doused with an accelerant.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/29/feds-investigate-fire-at-site-of-future-tennessee-mosque/
I absolutely do not think that every muslim is evil and has plans to terrorize our country, just think that a Muslim center so close to a place attacked by muslims is going to make people nervous, that's common sense.
We don't deserve to know who Rauf is because he's Muslim, but because he and his family have a history of making Anti-American remarks. It doesn't help that he comes from a religion that has a history of a FEW, not all, but a FEW extremists who have attacked our country. We remember the FEW because it is recent and still effects lives today. What's more is that it is so near to the site that it happened, to remind those families of those victims...It's a bit disrespectful. It just seems that it is causing unnecessary nervousness and hurt.
I made the statement about not rolling over and letting Al Qaeda not walk all over us in regard to a post before...And I must add that we still haven't found them all, so there IS still reason to be worried and to have high security...what is there IS an attack coming from that mosque...then Al Qaeda will be laughing in our faces and the war we are already in will go on for longer and longer.
I'll ask again.
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
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We are not talking about some peaceful religion here........... Islam has passed it's self off as some peaceful gathering, and they have nothing to do with their extreme brothers. I beg to differ. Have you read the Koran? I mean really read it? There's another book that goes with it, but for the life of me, I can remember what it's called. Can someone help me out here? If your not Muslim, your an infidel, and worthy of death. Even their own people. They think nothing of putting their own people to death for not following Islam, and becoming Muslim. That's you and me folks, we are the infidel, no matter what we do, or don't believe. Mackenzie brought up some very good points. This is NOT a fallout of hate, it's a careful investigation of why and what. This is a careful scrutiny why they want that exact location to build their center. Surely they know the wound that is still raw for the families who lost loved ones in the 9/11 disaster. Why would they ignore the intense feelings of loss that is still prevalent with the American people? When were these plans even created? Was it before 9/11? There's a lot to question than just "oh, this is a fallout of hate". Not so.
Do you know that this teaching of the Koran is taught in the schools from the time children can speak? So we have a whole next generation of this coming up. No one here has seen our flag being burned by Muslims, or Amreican hate slogans being chanted in their festivals and gatherings?
When we travel into a foreign country, we are asked all sorts of questions. When I was in China, I was ALWAYS stopped by the Communist Police, and asked for my Passport. Asked why was I there? Who did I know? Where was I staying? Even when I went to cash a big Hong Kong bill into smaller increments, I was asked the same questions over and over. This was in the Bank of America building no less. Did I get all mad and say "they just hate Americans, that's why they are doing this"? No, I was in their country, they had every right to know what I was doing there.
Any time you go to a foreign land. Everybody goes through Immigration and is asked why and what your going to their country for. You better answer them, because they can bar you from entering. Since 9/11, believe me, it's gotten a lot stricter to enter ANY country. EVERYBODY is on high alert. Not just the United States. We are not the only one who have suffered terrorist attacks. Coming from China during Ramadan (Muslim month of fasting), there were Muslims boarding the plane. We were stuck on the Tarmac for over an hour as people disembarked, because they were not going to fly with them. That sounds extreme, but you had to see these people's attitude and how they "pushed" themselves and glared at everybody. Some sneered like they were thumbing their noses at us. They WANTED us to fear them. We stayed on the plane because we were not afraid of them. This flight took 14 hours. We were all together a long time. If you had been there and observed the behavior, you might want some investigation done too. No, I don't hate them, but I'd like my Nation to be a bit cautious in why they're in such a rush to build near ground zero? Has anybody else here been in that close proximity to observe their disrespect for anyone? Sure, they're going to tone it down while they're in the US, but observe them on their own soil. Or even in Israel where they think Israel is actually theirs. You might have a different opinion and want some investigation done also.
All that is being asked is....please investigate this a bit further, and is it possible that someone behind this couple pulling the strings? Where is the funding coming from? Why is this couple screaming that Americans hate them? Maybe to garner sympathy? Why haven't the other churches destroyed in the vicinity not been given permission to rebuild, but this Mosque is being pushed through? These are all viable questions that have no hate to them. Just questions.
Now before you judge me about where I stand. Not all Arabs or Arab people are Muslims. I met very nice people in Israel that were Arabs, Jordan also. The nicest people. There was an Arab cab driver that toured me and my friend all over Bethlehem, and then when the borders closed at night (we had no idea it would happen), got us back to Jerusalem safe and sound to our house through some back roads. It's not the race, it's the religion, and the extreme teaching of destroying anyone that's not Muslim. They have no value for human life....none. How about brain washing the youth into suicide bombing? No hate, just some questions.
You need to view it ASAP as it's been taken down once.
www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=109277652456420&ref=mf
WARNING DO NOT LET YOUR CHILDREN WATCH THIS OR HAVE THEM IN THE ROOM. IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE IN ANY WAY, DO NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO!!
I wanted to post this earlier, but knew it was time consuming. Please....this is not a hate post. Just some questions, and to show you some proof to back up what is common knowledge in other countries.
To my Christian friends....do you know that the word "Islam" means peace and safety? If you know your Word, you will make the connection.
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Is it not natural for Americans to fear Muslims after we watched them destroy two huge towers and countless lives on national television?
Should we not get to know, for our own safety and security, who Rauf is and what his intentions are?
Of course it's only Republicans that oppose this right? WRONG.
Should America have rolled over and let Al Qaeda continue to attack and bring the war to our land?
Why is it that when it comes to anything considered a "minority" any question about anything they do is considered racism? It's crap. There's so much more reverse racism in this country than anything else. There's been places of worship DESTROYED in 9/11 that haven't been rebuilt. Why not? And why the urgency to put up the mosque?
Consider the strawman beaten.
In no way did I make the issue into something it's not, you just simply don't want to have to answer any questions you can't answer. In no way was my post built on lies or misrepresentations. Maybe you should find something useful to say instead of wasting space trying to offend people. You're not going to offend me, just because you disagree with me in no way makes me wrong. If you can't defend your position then expect to lose the argument. Period.
In actuality, the space that it takes to post and store a reply on this one out of thousands of topics on this site, out of the millions of message boards on the world-wide interwebs, it is comparatively very small. Think less than 1/10 of a MegaByte or so.
So if it's my "wasting space" that you are concerned about, I urge you to find something better to be E-angry with.
I believe Carl Champly is allready all over that whole Wasted Spaces thing on DIY... 8)
If I was "E-angry" you would know, but if you can't give an intelligent response I'd rather not have to see that you responded at all, waste of time.
Fine.....you win for two reasons.
1. Intelligent response is not within my programming; much like humanity or the Turing Test.
2. And anybody that can't give intelligent response and disagrees is in fact, a waste of time.
:icon_rr:
lol-fro
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To my Christian friends....do you know that the word "Islam" means peace and safety? If you know your Word, you will make the connection.
That is not correct, but is a common mistake. The word Salam is a noun and means peace. Islam is an Arabic verb, not a noun, and means submission, surrendering, and obeying in order to achieve Salam or 'peace'.
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To my Christian friends....do you know that the word "Islam" means peace and safety? If you know your Word, you will make the connection.
That is not correct, but is a common mistake. The word Salam is a noun and means peace. Islam is an Arabic verb, not a noun, and means submission, surrendering, and obeying in order to achieve Salam or 'peace'.
Definition:
wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_Islam_and_Muslim_the_same
Answer
The word "Islam" comes from an Arabic root word meaning "peace", "safety". "Islam" means "peace and security through submission to God." In Arabic, you convert a general noun to a personal noun by preceding it with "M", so a Muslim (M+Islam) is a person who has found peace and security through submission to God.
The religion is Islam. The person who believes in Islam is Muslim.
ANSWER:
The followers of Islam are called Muslims. For example who follow christianity are called Christian and who follows Buddhism are called Buddhists.
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from Wikipedia...
Park51, originally named Cordoba House, is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center and mosque in Lower Manhattan. The facility's design includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare area, bookstore, culinary school, art studio, food court, September 11 memorial, and prayer space that could accommodate 1,000–2,000 people. The center would replace an existing 1850s Italianate-style building that was damaged in the September 11 attacks, located two blocks (about 600 feet, or 180 meters) from the former World Trade Center site, although it would not be visible from the future memorial.
In July 2009, the real estate company and developer Soho Properties, led by Sharif El-Gamal, purchased the building, initially planning to build a condominium complex at the site. In partnership with Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf's Cordoba Initiative, the owners instead decided to pursue the idea of an Islamic community center to be headed by Rauf.
Plans to build Cordoba House were noted in December 2009, at a location that was already in use for Muslim worship. The plans were reviewed by the local community board in May 2010, at which time they attracted some national media attention. The project's organizers state that it is intended to be "a platform for multi-faith dialogue. It will strive to promote inter-community peace, tolerance and understanding locally in New York City, nationally in America, and globally," and have stated that it is modeled on the noted Manhattan Jewish community and cultural center, the 92nd Street Y. The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews. The proposal triggered an intense nationwide controversy, with opponents of the project objecting to its proximity to the site of the September 11 attacks, its scale, sources of funding, or expressing concern that the project's name was intended as a reference to the Islamic conquest of the Christian city of Córdoba, Spain. Supporters have appealed to the First Amendment as well as the opportunity for Muslims to demonstrate peaceful Islamic values and for Americans to reassert their commitment to tolerance and diversity.
Protests were initially sparked by a campaign launched by bloggers Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, critics of Islam and founders of the group Stop Islamization of America. Controversial postings on Geller's blog "Atlas Shrugs" have included a number of false claims, including that Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan (who is Jewish) supports *bleep* ideology (accompanied by a fake picture of her in a *bleep* uniform), a video suggesting that Muslims have sex with goats, a doctored photo showing President Obama urinating on an American flag and false claims that Obama's mother was involved in pornography and that Obama "was involved with a crack *bleep* in his youth". Geller has also used her site to accuse President Obama of anti-Semitism and doing the bidding of "Islamic overlords," while posting an essay suggesting, without any evidence, that the President is the "love child" of Malcolm X.
Before Geller's campaign, response to the Park51 project was not pronounced, and even conservative commentators provided largely positive coverage. But the project quickly attracted national attention, with local politicians including New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and former Mayor Rudolph Guiliani voicing their opinions for and against alongside national figures such as President Barack Obama, former Vice-Presidential candidate Sarah Palin, and former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich. Polling has demonstrated that a majority of both Americans and New York State and New York City residents oppose the construction of the building near Ground Zero, while a majority of Manhattan residents support the project. Prominent supporters and opponents of the project can be found among the families of the 9/11 victims, the domestic and international Muslim community, and local and national politicians, making it a divisive political campaign issue in the 2010 midterm elections.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51
Just a little food for thought. A majority of Manhattan residents support the project...hmm...
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To my Christian friends....do you know that the word "Islam" means peace and safety? If you know your Word, you will make the connection.
That is not correct, but is a common mistake. The word Salam is a noun and means peace. Islam is an Arabic verb, not a noun, and means submission, surrendering, and obeying in order to achieve Salam or 'peace'.
Definition:
wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_Islam_and_Muslim_the_same
Annella...it says it comes from an Arabic root word meaning peace. Islam...Salam...the two words sound similar.
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wiki answers is not the best place to find accurate info. What I posted was from a Muslim's page, so would tend to think it was more accurate, but will not argue with you about it. I have seen the Islam=peace so many times and it is always refuted by Muslims themselves, but what do I know.
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wiki answers is not the best place to find accurate info. What I posted was from a Muslim's page, so would tend to think it was more accurate, but will not argue with you about it. I have seen the Islam=peace so many times and it is always refuted by Muslims themselves, but what do I know.
I use wiki alot and have found them to be pretty accurate. I'll ask my Muslim neighbor. What Muslim page are you referring to?
Manhattan is only a part of New York, and New York is just one city in the Nation. A lot of people died on 9/11 that were not native New Yorkers. I'm curious, did you watch the vid? I don't put to much stock in polls, as they have a tendency to become manipulated. Hmmmm
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Here is one of about 10 I went to, just to double check myself, before posting that. As I said, I have heard it used many times in that way over the years. I have also studied the Hindu and Muslim practices and beliefs for my own education because I wanted to know. Here is the easiest to understand, most clearly written:
http://tinyurl.com/25ntbc4
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Here is one of about 10 I went to, just to double check myself, before posting that. As I said, I have heard it used many times in that way over the years. I have also studied the Hindu and Muslim practices and beliefs for my own education because I wanted to know. Here is the easiest to understand, most clearly written:
http://tinyurl.com/25ntbc4
So actually it encumbers peace, is what I'm reading. Or a part of the "step" process. I guess you could get the meaning peace and safety out of it. Since according to the Muslim page, it means so many things apparently. Is it possible to give me the other 9 your referring to (Muslim Pages). Only because I take everything and evaluate it all. Everything I've researched has the words Peace and Security or Safety.
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Everything I've researched has the words Peace and Security or Safety.
That is because those are things which will be achieved by following the actions laid out by 'Islam'. If you want to know more, I would suggest doing your own research. I didn't post that to get into semantics and turning a word's meaning and classification around. Islam is a verb with various roots and Salam (peace) is a noun which will be a result of it. If you have never actually studied anything about the beliefs of Muslims, you can't just jump into figuring one word out. If you are a Muslim, you practice Islam, an integral core of the belief.
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Everything I've researched has the words Peace and Security or Safety.
That is because those are things which will be achieved by following the actions laid out by 'Islam'. If you want to know more, I would suggest doing your own research. I didn't post that to get into semantics and turning a word's meaning and classification around. Islam is a verb with various roots and Salam (peace) is a noun which will be a result of it. If you have never actually studied anything about the beliefs of Muslims, you can't just jump into figuring one word out. If you are a Muslim, you practice Islam, an integral core of the belief.
If you read my post I've done a bit of study and read the Koran. I had no intention of asking you for semantics and turning a word's meaning and classification around. Please ignore my request for extra pages, I thought they were websites that you could post. If you look back to the original post, it was you who questioned My turning of a word's meaning and classification around. Have a good day.
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Wow, I guess I should just let misinformation stand in the Forums? Annella, if you have in fact read the Qu'ran, then you would know this and that blows me away. I don't know where all the high and mightiness came from, but you didn't argue or question what amyrouse said about it. I'm sorry if I am not going to sit down and transcribe words from books or unzip a couple files just to find you 'more proof'. If you disagree with it, fine, but why the attitude?
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Wow, I guess I should just let misinformation stand in the Forums? Annella, if you have in fact read the Qu'ran, then you would know this and that blows me away. I don't know where all the high and mightiness came from, but you didn't argue or question what amyrouse said about it. I'm sorry if I am not going to sit down and transcribe words from books or unzip a couple files just to find you 'more proof'. If you disagree with it, fine, but why the attitude?
You misunderstand and are reading attitude when there is none..... If anyone has attitude, who is putting labels like "High and Mighty"? I have always been under the impression (after studying) that Islam meant peace. This is not uncommon to have it defined this way. Actually we were both right, as there are many meanings....... Also, the Koran can be spelled many different ways:
Quran, Koran, Qur'an, Coran, or al-Qur'an.
I had no intention of having you "unzip" files or find me proof anywhere. ALL I asked was the other references you were referring to. That's all. Again, I thought they were websites you had handy. I would no more ask anyone to do my own research or study. That's ludicrous. All you have to do is read my posts to know that.
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It has nothing to do with Americans hating Muslims. The 9-11 bombings were an attack on America, and the mosque builders know that they are insulting America as a nation by building the mosque at ground zero. why don't the Japanese build a Japanese cultural center on Pearl Harbor? the real scary thing that is spreading across America is a tolerance of anything anti-American, which can only lead to the downfall of our country. People need to put true patriotism ahead of political correctness, and false tolerance. Why don't the Muslims have some tolerance for Americans and their feelings?
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It has nothing to do with Americans hating Muslims. The 9-11 bombings were an attack on America, and the mosque builders know that they are insulting America as a nation by building the mosque at ground zero. why don't the Japanese build a Japanese cultural center on Pearl Harbor? the real scary thing that is spreading across America is a tolerance of anything anti-American, which can only lead to the downfall of our country. People need to put true patriotism ahead of political correctness, and false tolerance. Why don't the Muslims have some tolerance for Americans and their feelings?
Very well put.
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It has nothing to do with Americans hating Muslims. The 9-11 bombings were an attack on America, and the mosque builders know that they are insulting America as a nation by building the mosque at ground zero. why don't the Japanese build a Japanese cultural center on Pearl Harbor? the real scary thing that is spreading across America is a tolerance of anything anti-American, which can only lead to the downfall of our country. People need to put true patriotism ahead of political correctness, and false tolerance. Why don't the Muslims have some tolerance for Americans and their feelings?
Lets build churches on Reservations. Let's build American Cultural centers in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
We are not immune. We seem to believe, as a country, that we do nothing wrong, and that needs to stop. I am not saying that we deserved what happened on 9/11, but we aren't doing anything to change this misconception that we are Muslim haters. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
When the bombings happened in OK City in 95, we were shocked to find out that Tim McVeigh was a white Christian who served this country. The rumors running rampant before McVeigh was found was that it was Arabs behind the incident (and many conspiracy theorists are still promoting this idea).
In all honesty, we did worse to the Japanese in WWII than they did to us. We are supposed to be a beacon in civilization, but it took an attack to get us into the war in WWII while innocent people were being rallied up and put into concentration camps. Once we entered the war, we condemned the Germans for the camps, yet we gathered the Japanese-Americans and put them in camps, and then in August of 1945 launched what I feel is one of the worst terrorist attacks in history on the country of Japan. Yet, we're sorry and all is forgiven, right? We're doing the same thing to Muslims/Arabs (hey, they all look the same to us) today.
The ends justifies the means, right? Thats what Osama says.
I don't see Islam as anti-American. I see Fred Phelps as anti-American. I see Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda as anti-American. If Osama wanted to build a mosque 50 miles from ground zero, I'd be first in line to protest. This project is about healing, not about Muslims rubbing our faces in 9/11. I don't see anyone going on national tv saying "NaNaNaNa BooBoo stick your head in doodoo..." No one is getting the one-up on anyone else. The people in Manhattan are ready to start the healing process. Its time for the rest of the country to follow suit.
And, cheese and crackers, has anyone went to the link for the Cordoba Initiative and actually read about the project?
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We are not talking about some peaceful religion here........... Islam has passed it's self off as some peaceful gathering, and they have nothing to do with their extreme brothers. I beg to differ. Have you read the Koran? I mean really read it? There's another book that goes with it, but for the life of me, I can remember what it's called. Can someone help me out here? If your not Muslim, your an infidel, and worthy of death. Even their own people. They think nothing of putting their own people to death for not following Islam, and becoming Muslim. That's you and me folks, we are the infidel, no matter what we do, or don't believe. Mackenzie brought up some very good points. This is NOT a fallout of hate, it's a careful investigation of why and what. This is a careful scrutiny why they want that exact location to build their center. Surely they know the wound that is still raw for the families who lost loved ones in the 9/11 disaster. Why would they ignore the intense feelings of loss that is still prevalent with the American people? When were these plans even created? Was it before 9/11? There's a lot to question than just "oh, this is a fallout of hate". Not so.
Do you know that this teaching of the Koran is taught in the schools from the time children can speak? So we have a whole next generation of this coming up. No one here has seen our flag being burned by Muslims, or Amreican hate slogans being chanted in their festivals and gatherings?
When we travel into a foreign country, we are asked all sorts of questions. When I was in China, I was ALWAYS stopped by the Communist Police, and asked for my Passport. Asked why was I there? Who did I know? Where was I staying? Even when I went to cash a big Hong Kong bill into smaller increments, I was asked the same questions over and over. This was in the Bank of America building no less. Did I get all mad and say "they just hate Americans, that's why they are doing this"? No, I was in their country, they had every right to know what I was doing there.
Any time you go to a foreign land. Everybody goes through Immigration and is asked why and what your going to their country for. You better answer them, because they can bar you from entering. Since 9/11, believe me, it's gotten a lot stricter to enter ANY country. EVERYBODY is on high alert. Not just the United States. We are not the only one who have suffered terrorist attacks. Coming from China during Ramadan (Muslim month of fasting), there were Muslims boarding the plane. We were stuck on the Tarmac for over an hour as people disembarked, because they were not going to fly with them. That sounds extreme, but you had to see these people's attitude and how they "pushed" themselves and glared at everybody. Some sneered like they were thumbing their noses at us. They WANTED us to fear them. We stayed on the plane because we were not afraid of them. This flight took 14 hours. We were all together a long time. If you had been there and observed the behavior, you might want some investigation done too. No, I don't hate them, but I'd like my Nation to be a bit cautious in why they're in such a rush to build near ground zero? Has anybody else here been in that close proximity to observe their disrespect for anyone? Sure, they're going to tone it down while they're in the US, but observe them on their own soil. Or even in Israel where they think Israel is actually theirs. You might have a different opinion and want some investigation done also.
All that is being asked is....please investigate this a bit further, and is it possible that someone behind this couple pulling the strings? Where is the funding coming from? Why is this couple screaming that Americans hate them? Maybe to garner sympathy? Why haven't the other churches destroyed in the vicinity not been given permission to rebuild, but this Mosque is being pushed through? These are all viable questions that have no hate to them. Just questions.
Now before you judge me about where I stand. Not all Arabs or Arab people are Muslims. I met very nice people in Israel that were Arabs, Jordan also. The nicest people. There was an Arab cab driver that toured me and my friend all over Bethlehem, and then when the borders closed at night (we had no idea it would happen), got us back to Jerusalem safe and sound to our house through some back roads. It's not the race, it's the religion, and the extreme teaching of destroying anyone that's not Muslim. They have no value for human life....none. How about brain washing the youth into suicide bombing? No hate, just some questions.
You need to view it ASAP as it's been taken down once.
www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=109277652456420&ref=mf
WARNING DO NOT LET YOUR CHILDREN WATCH THIS OR HAVE THEM IN THE ROOM. IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE IN ANY WAY, DO NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO!!
I wanted to post this earlier, but knew it was time consuming. Please....this is not a hate post. Just some questions, and to show you some proof to back up what is common knowledge in other countries.
To my Christian friends....do you know that the word "Islam" means peace and safety? If you know your Word, you will make the connection.
I understand what you are saying here and plan to address some of it as soon as you and your friend addresses the couple of questions I ask of you. You said you wouldnt discuss the bible with me and I am fine with that and I have never asked you anything about the bible. The Doctrine of discovery is not in the bible nor is the idea of Manifest Destiny so I see the only reason you would refuse to state your thoughts on them is perhaps that you are concerned that they will be taken as intolerant or violently superioristic.
You description here sounds very familiar and strikes very close to home with me because millions of my relations were slaughtered simply because they refused to assimilate into the christian religion.
You say you are trying to verify my claims and I certainly commend you for that and I assure you that verifying it will be very easy.I do hope and respectfully request from you that after verifying them you will utilize your position in the church to speak out on these terrible issues and help us to stop these things from ever happening to another.
Please don't just follow the precedence your colleagues have set by either attempting to further cloud the truth and trying to find some way of justifying the atrocities.
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I don't see Islam as anti-American.
My dad is a former muslim. I grew up around Islamic people.....Islam is very anti-American. Muslims are fork tongued and full of hatred for Americans Christians and Jews. They say Jesus (peace be upon him) and then say he went to hell for saying he was God!
My dad peed on and burned our bibles, he spanked us for singing Jesus loves me (but he always "peace be upon him" after saying Jesus! And he laughed at the news on the morning of September 11. He isn't an extremist. He wasn't even a practicing and devout muslim since he came to the United States. But this is what was bred in him from the time he was young. He was taught in his Islamic school that the Holocaust was a myth, he was taught that Jews are infidels and pigs, he was taught that Americans deserve to die.
He has told me this, this is from a muslim!
I'm sorry but the toutings of Islam as peaceful is a big fat lie, I lived around it my whole life.
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Sherna, I know it took a lot of courage for you to post this. Even though you shared this with me personally, it was only your right to reveal this.....no one else's. Since you have honey, I commend you. It's not easy putting yourself, and your upbringing out there for all to see.
May God richly bless you "little chicken".
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Sherna, I know it took a lot of courage for you to post this. Even though you shared this with me personally, it was only your right to reveal this.....no one else's. Since you have honey, I commend you. It's not easy putting yourself, and your upbringing out there for all to see.
May God richly bless you "little chicken".
:)
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Walksalone, I don't know who you are referring to as me and my friend. It might be Mackenzie as we were the ones you were making ugly sexual innuendos about.
I respectfully decline to get into ANY debate with you about ANYTHING. I can't speak for Mackenzie. Please don't take this as I'm superior. It's a choice I've made for myself.
As far as researching your allegations about your people. That's put on the back burner for awhile. If and when I pick it up again, if I find you indeed have a defense, I will say so. However, I did address that my Christian movement has nothing to do with the Mother church or whatever branches off of her did. Again....not all Christians are killers, or have blood on their hands in past history. Again, as I've said before, we can trace our roots and the foundation of my church to the book of Acts. As far as your reference to my collegues, I have no idea what collegues you are talking about. We are NOT a branch off the Mother Church.
As far as clouding any issue, I'm not infallible, but I try to speak the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
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It has nothing to do with Americans hating Muslims. The 9-11 bombings were an attack on America, and the mosque builders know that they are insulting America as a nation by building the mosque at ground zero. why don't the Japanese build a Japanese cultural center on Pearl Harbor? the real scary thing that is spreading across America is a tolerance of anything anti-American, which can only lead to the downfall of our country. People need to put true patriotism ahead of political correctness, and false tolerance. Why don't the Muslims have some tolerance for Americans and their feelings?
Very well put! Seems like common sense to me.
It has gotten very out of hand that anything a minority does is ok no matter what and anything Americans do is likely to offend a minority in some way.
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I have to study and don't have time to get into a lengthy debate, but I have something I'd like to say.
Obviously Islam is NOT a super peaceful religion, based on how they treat America. Maybe it's meant to be and is when it is practiced how they meant for it to be practiced, but isn't. No, all Muslims do not hate America. Do many? YES. Is it their fault, not always. Many of them have had it bred into them since they were young. There is evidence of MINNIE AND MICKEY MOUSE cartoons that teach them that America is evil and to hate Americans etc. I AM NOT SAYING EVERY MUSLIM IS LIKE THAT. I am well aware that many of you will twist my words into that, that's fine. It's becoming increasingly clear a REAL debate is not possible at this forum. THIS IS AMERICA. Just because Muslims are a minority doesn't mean they can do no wrong. Every American that disagrees with Islam is not wrong. LAND OF THE FREE. We don't HAVE to agree with Islam, we don't HAVE to roll over and let them disrespect the victims of 9/11, it's a DEMOCRACY we have a say in it. Use your common sense and quit overthinking basic knowledge. Some things in this world ARE black and white. There is no reason to build that mosque that close to ground zero. Absolutely none. It's offensive and will only cause problems. Even if it isn't wrong, it's obvious it will cause problems, so why stir it up. Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head.
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I have to study and don't have time to get into a lengthy debate, but I have something I'd like to say.
Obviously Islam is NOT a super peaceful religion, based on how they treat America. Maybe it's meant to be and is when it is practiced how they meant for it to be practiced, but isn't. No, all Muslims do not hate America. Do many? YES. Is it their fault, not always. Many of them have had it bred into them since they were young. There is evidence of MINNIE AND MICKEY MOUSE cartoons that teach them that America is evil and to hate Americans etc. I AM NOT SAYING EVERY MUSLIM IS LIKE THAT. I am well aware that many of you will twist my words into that, that's fine. It's becoming increasingly clear a REAL debate is not possible at this forum. THIS IS AMERICA. Just because Muslims are a minority doesn't mean they can do no wrong. Every American that disagrees with Islam is not wrong. LAND OF THE FREE. We don't HAVE to agree with Islam, we don't HAVE to roll over and let them disrespect the victims of 9/11, it's a DEMOCRACY we have a say in it. Use your common sense and quit overthinking basic knowledge. Some things in this world ARE black and white. There is no reason to build that mosque that close to ground zero. Absolutely none. It's offensive and will only cause problems. Even if it isn't wrong, it's obvious it will cause problems, so why stir it up. Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head.
Mackenzie, you put in the best answer yet, and took only 1/4 of what I posted...lol You and Sherna have the best intellect of any 2 women I've ever met. I'm thankful we have younger God fearing women that will stand up for what they believe and are not afraid to claim it. Sherna's post above made me cry. I know what it took for her to pull the cover off her life for all to see, knowing how some would view it. Both of you girls have made me proud today. Your Mothers would be proud. If my son was not married, and Sherna single, I'd send him after one of you....lol
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
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I have to study and don't have time to get into a lengthy debate, but I have something I'd like to say.
Obviously Islam is NOT a super peaceful religion, based on how they treat America. Maybe it's meant to be and is when it is practiced how they meant for it to be practiced, but isn't. No, all Muslims do not hate America. Do many? YES. Is it their fault, not always. Many of them have had it bred into them since they were young. There is evidence of MINNIE AND MICKEY MOUSE cartoons that teach them that America is evil and to hate Americans etc. I AM NOT SAYING EVERY MUSLIM IS LIKE THAT. I am well aware that many of you will twist my words into that, that's fine. It's becoming increasingly clear a REAL debate is not possible at this forum. THIS IS AMERICA. Just because Muslims are a minority doesn't mean they can do no wrong. Every American that disagrees with Islam is not wrong. LAND OF THE FREE. We don't HAVE to agree with Islam, we don't HAVE to roll over and let them disrespect the victims of 9/11, it's a DEMOCRACY we have a say in it. Use your common sense and quit overthinking basic knowledge. Some things in this world ARE black and white. There is no reason to build that mosque that close to ground zero. Absolutely none. It's offensive and will only cause problems. Even if it isn't wrong, it's obvious it will cause problems, so why stir it up. Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head.
Mackenzie, you put in the best answer yet, and took only 1/4 of what I posted...lol You and Sherna have the best intellect of any 2 women I've ever met. I'm thankful we have younger God fearing women that will stand up for what they believe and are not afraid to claim it. Sherna's post above made me cry. I know what it took for her to pull the cover off her life for all to see, knowing how some would view it. Both of you girls have made me proud today. Your Mothers would be proud. If my son was not married, and Sherna single, I'd send him after one of you....lol
That means a lot! =]]
It just seems to me that some thing should be common sense.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
I do believe people are going to be put in jeopardy either way. Either some ignorant person will bomb the Cultural Center, or it won't be built and another attack by al-Qaeda will be imminent. I'm not the one being naive here.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
I heard it would be visable. It's going to high enough to be seen from ground zero. At least some of it.
Amy if people want to hide their head in the sand. That's up to them. We are after all.....Americans, and have free choice. The proof of this religion and how blood thirsty it is, and how it teaches to hate and destroy the infidels (anyone who is not Muslim) is also forced upon their own children, it's out there for all to see. You turning this around to the "hate" mentality again, when that has been addressed in every post as not a factor, shows you actually have no argument. Undeniable proof has been posted, but still you think it's about anti-Muslim, or that's the only thing you can post as any kind of recourse up against undenieble truth.
You know what? Mackenzie said it best. There is no debate here, because no matter what insurmountable evidence to the contrary, doesn't matter to you. The video I posted is what these people are like. Killing, raping, stoning individuals is natural entertainment in their eyes.....everybody turns out like a festival. I've been in their countries and seen how they treat even members of their own households. Don't even get me started on the women.
Israel is the smartest nation on earth because they aren't fooled! They've seen it firsthand and experienced the destruction by Muslim hands for centuries. We come down on Israel, because they won't take any guff from the Muslims. Do you realize that El Al (Israeli Airlines), has never had a terrorist attack? Israel had air marshalls before we even thought about it. They knew what these people were capable of.
It's not about anti-Muslim. It's about blindly opening up the door to forces, that once the floodgates are opened, we're not going to have a ghost of a chance to shut them. You think this is about hating Muslims? Your so wrong.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
I heard it would be visable. It's going to high enough to be seen from ground zero. At least some of it.
Amy if people want to hide their head in the sand. That's up to them. We are after all.....Americans, and have free choice. The proof of this religion and how blood thirsty it is, and how it teaches to hate and destroy the infidels (anyone who is not Muslim) is also forced upon their own children, it's out there for all to see. You turning this around to the "hate" mentality again, when that has been addressed in every post as not a factor, shows you actually have no argument. Undeniable proof has been posted, but still you think it's about anti-Muslim, or that's the only thing you can post as any kind of recourse up against undenieble truth.
You know what? Mackenzie said it best. There is no debate here, because no matter what insurmountable evidence to the contrary, doesn't matter to you. The video I posted is what these people are like. Killing, raping, stoning individuals is natural entertainment in their eyes.....everybody turns out like a festival. I've been in their countries and seen how they treat even members of their own households. Don't even get me started on the women.
Israel is the smartest nation on earth because they aren't fooled! They've seen it firsthand and experienced the destruction by Muslim hands for centuries. We come down on Israel, because they won't take any guff from the Muslims. Do you realize that El Al (Israeli Airlines), has never had a terrorist attack? Israel had air marshalls before we even thought about it. They knew what these people were capable of.
It's not about anti-Muslim. It's about blindly opening up the door to forces, that once the floodgates are opened, we're not going to have a ghost of a chance to shut them. You think this is about hating Muslims? Your so wrong.
You don't seem to be really reading my responses. *The perception is anti-Muslim, and there is much anti-Muslim sentiment in this country. To ignore that is to be blind. *I cited a source in one of my responses saying the Cultural Center cannot be seen from the memorial. There are so many things I have seen as wrong with this entire thread and I'm getting tired of it. You're asking everyone to open their eyes? Try opening yours. I'm going to stop posting right now to keep myself from saying something I will regret later.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
I do believe people are going to be put in jeopardy either way. Either some ignorant person will bomb the Cultural Center, or it won't be built and another attack by al-Qaeda will be imminent. I'm not the one being naive here.
Oh, so we deserved the attack from al-Qaeda before? Your not even making sense. So we should just hand over the keys to the ammo room (symbolic), to pacify them so another attack won't be imminent? Do you actually think anything we do, right or wrong will change their religious prime objective?
Here's a question. Do you think you can change my religious prime objective? Can you do anything to make me not believe the Bible?
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Oh, so we deserved the attack from al-Qaeda before? Your not even making sense. So we should just hand over the keys to the ammo room (symbolic), to pacify them so another attack won't be imminent? Do you actually think anything we do, right or wrong will change their religious prime objective?
That is a low blow.
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Oh, so we deserved the attack from al-Qaeda before? Your not even making sense. So we should just hand over the keys to the ammo room (symbolic), to pacify them so another attack won't be imminent? Do you actually think anything we do, right or wrong will change their religious prime objective?
That is a low blow.
It really wasn't meant to be. I'm trying to put it in the best possible way so you can see what is actually being said. No matter what we do....right....wrong....otherwise.....they will still adhere to their religion of no one is worthy to live unless they are Muslim or convert to Islam. We as Christians have been told we are brain washed because we believe the Word of God. However, we are not taught to kill everyone who is not Christian.
The Muslim religion does, and that's just one thing. There's a whole lot of rules and regs. they live by that actually demeans a lot of family values and women in particular.
I'm not making this personal Amy, but it seems you think I am. Not so. You know what, I will say this, I wish I was 100% wrong in this. I really do.
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Oh, so we deserved the attack from al-Qaeda before? Your not even making sense. So we should just hand over the keys to the ammo room (symbolic), to pacify them so another attack won't be imminent? Do you actually think anything we do, right or wrong will change their religious prime objective?
That is a low blow.
It really wasn't meant to be. I'm trying to put it in the best possible way so you can see what is actually being said. No matter what we do....right....wrong....otherwise.....they will still adhere to their religion of no one is worthy to live unless they are Muslim or convert to Islam. We as Christians have been told we are brain washed because we believe the Word of God. However, we are not taught to kill everyone who is not Christian.
The Muslim religion does, and that's just one thing. There's a whole lot of rules and regs. they live by that actually demeans a lot of family values and women in particular.
I'm not making this personal Amy, but it seems you think I am. Not so. You know what, I will say this, I wish I was 100% wrong in this. I really do.
You're trying to tell me what I'm saying. You aren't reading my words...my words never said that we deserved this attack. No one deserves attack. But we are adding fuel to the fire. I've said this same thing multiple times.
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Oh, so we deserved the attack from al-Qaeda before? Your not even making sense. So we should just hand over the keys to the ammo room (symbolic), to pacify them so another attack won't be imminent? Do you actually think anything we do, right or wrong will change their religious prime objective?
That is a low blow.
It really wasn't meant to be. I'm trying to put it in the best possible way so you can see what is actually being said. No matter what we do....right....wrong....otherwise.....they will still adhere to their religion of no one is worthy to live unless they are Muslim or convert to Islam. We as Christians have been told we are brain washed because we believe the Word of God. However, we are not taught to kill everyone who is not Christian.
The Muslim religion does, and that's just one thing. There's a whole lot of rules and regs. they live by that actually demeans a lot of family values and women in particular.
I'm not making this personal Amy, but it seems you think I am. Not so. You know what, I will say this, I wish I was 100% wrong in this. I really do.
You're trying to tell me what I'm saying. You aren't reading my words...my words never said that we deserved this attack. No one deserves attack. But we are adding fuel to the fire. I've said this same thing multiple times.
No, I never said you said we deserved the attack, and I don't like my words being twisted around either. It doesn't matter to these people what kind of fuel is added to the fire.....they already have their agenda. NOTHING will deter them from it. If we are peaceful to them, or if we roll out the tanks. They are so brain washed, nothing will change them. Our peacefulness is weakness to them.
Did you understand Shernas post? Her father had been in the US for years, and when 9/11 happened, he laughed. Because that inbred brain washing was still there. After living years and years as an American. There were some things she didn't say, and it's not my right to divulge it out of respect to her as my friend, but she lived this stuff. She's very much aware of how single minded they are to obtain their religious objective.
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No matter what we do....right....wrong....otherwise.....they will still adhere to their religion of no one is worthy to live unless they are Muslim or convert to Islam. We as Christians have been told we are brain washed because we believe the Word of God. However, we are not taught to kill everyone who is not Christian.
The Muslim religion does, and that's just one thing.
Talk about painting a huge generalization of an entire religion and it's people. I don't know all that Sherna lived through, but to equate her father (who was perhaps Kafir) with every single follower of the faith is ridiculous. You are stating the Muslim religion teaches the killing of anyone who is not a Christian Muslim? You got this from one person's experience? Let me turn that around and say that Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church represent the thinking and teachings of all Christians." Make any sense? No, of course not because it is ridiculous. As ridiculous as saying walksalone is living by the credo of kill all the white men."
I am in NO way downplaying the events of 9/11 and I am in NO way questioning or downplaying whatever Sherna lived through, but surely as a follower of another religion, you can see how inflammatory those remarks are. Xenophobia rears it's head....
Edited to put correct word in.
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No matter what we do....right....wrong....otherwise.....they will still adhere to their religion of no one is worthy to live unless they are Muslim or convert to Islam. We as Christians have been told we are brain washed because we believe the Word of God. However, we are not taught to kill everyone who is not Christian.
The Muslim religion does, and that's just one thing.
Talk about painting a huge generalization of an entire religion and it's people. I don't know all that Sherna lived through, but to equate her father (who was perhaps Kafir) with every single follower of the faith is ridiculous. You are stating the Muslim religion teaches the killing of anyone who is not a Christian? You got this from one person's experience? Let me turn that around and say that Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church represent the thinking and teachings of all Christians." Make any sense? No, of course not because it is ridiculous. As ridiculous as saying walksalone is living by the credo of kill all the white men."
I am in NO way downplaying the events of 9/11 and I am in NO way questioning or downplaying whatever Sherna lived through, but surely as a follower of another religion, you can see how inflammatory those remarks are. Xenophobia rears it's head....
I did not state that the Muslim religion teaches the killing of anyone who is not a Christian. I have no idea why you would post something like that.......Whoa! Read my post and don't take it out of context. We as Christians do not teach to kill everyone who is not Christian. Unlike the Muslims teach that everyone that is not Muslim is an infidel, and worthy of death. Got it?
There is no way to debate this. I've given you first hand experience, proof in video form, you of all people to claim to have read the Koran know that we are considered infidels if we are not Muslim, and are worthy of death. There's nothing else to say. I wasted enough time. As far as accusing me of inflammatory remarks and insinuating my character with Xenophobia rears it's head, tells me that your just here for the insults.
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I edited my above post after seeing I had put Christian instead of Muslim. I will give you that one, Annella, because I made the mistake. However, I still do not agree with all you posted and it is not a disagreement with you in order to insult. I feel it is in fact a broad generalization. You are using the 'Koran' and the word "infidel" out of context. No where in the Koran is the word infidel and words written within it as to killing non-Muslims were written at a time of war. Granted, it is those words which are used to 'justify' and spur on hatred with many and especially within al-Queda.
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I edited my above post after seeing I had put Christian instead of Muslim. I will give you that one, Annella, because I made the mistake. However, I still do not agree with all you posted and it is not a disagreement with you in order to insult. I feel it is in fact a broad generalization. You are using the 'Koran' and the word "infidel" out of context. No where in the Koran is the word infidel and words written within it as to killing non-Muslims were written at a time of war. Granted, it is those words which are used to 'justify' and spur on hatred with many and especially within al-Queda.
War has already been declared (holy jihad), against the infidels of the world. There is some question of when and where, but we can be assured after 9/11, we have it declared on us. It's said it was declared over a thousand years ago. We do know they declared Holy War on Israel. Since we are Israel's main supportive ally, we may have just incurred the wrath of Allah (guilty by association).
By killing an infidel (which is a command to all Muslims), they are assured of a place in heaven. Definition of an infidel (word is "kafir") is a non-believer.
"Kill those who join other gods ith Allah wherever you find them; besiege them, seize them, lay in wait for them with every kind of ambush...."(Sura 9:5).
"When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them...."(Sura 47:4).
"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden...."(Sura 9:29).
"Say to the infidels: If they desist, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's...."(Sura 8:39).
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That is exactly what I was talking about when I said the words were used at a time of war during the 7th and 8th centuries. I myself was going to use the 'misused' Surah from the Qu'ran because that is what people always point to as 'proof', but then thought no.
Kill the Infidels, Surah 9:5
This article is about the oft-quoted, or rather misquoted, Surah 9:5 verse of the Quran, which is claimed to call upon "all" Muslims to kill "all" non-Muslims or the so-called "Infidels".
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Muslims are often questioned, "Did not Muhammad call on all Muslims to kill the infidels?" The answer is absolutely not!
Then, we are asked another question: "Why then does the Quran say, "fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them?" (9:5).
There are two interrelated answers to that question. The first is historical. The second is related to the nature of the Quran itself.
more if anyone cares to read: http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/jihad/kill_the_infidels.asp
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The words delivered to Muslims also came from the angel Gabriel, sound familiar? Other holy books read with the Quran are parallel to the christian Bible in many ways also. They are the records which most Muslims believe were dictated by God to various islamic prophets. They are the Tawrat (Torah), the Zabur (commonly the Psalms), the Injil (commonly the Gospel), and the Quran.
All I am trying to say is that just like some groups can justify their violent actions by saying "It's in the Bible." Or using what is written in the Bible in a literal sense in todays' world, which is no longer applicable in many cases, so do extremist groups within the Muslim world use their Holy Books.
We all know that man is infamous for using things, to fit his agenda, in a way that is totally opposite of the original intent/purpose. There is evidence of this throughout all of history and throughout all of the world.
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Well, I certainly didn't make up my posts, and we are in a Holy War, right along with Israel. Why do they burn our flag and Israel's flag together in all their gatherings?
Everything aside. You have to ask yourself.....why are they so adamant about building so close to a site that they know will only pour salt in the wounds of those who lost loved ones in the 9/11 tragedy? I think we're leaving them out altogether. Why are they pushing this? Could it be that they look on this as some kind of coup? There's somthing else going on here, and we're being made to "look" intolerant, when all we want to do is give those who are still grieving, time to grieve, without doing it in the shadow of the symbol of what they had, and still have to endure.
Amyrouse was talking about how they took a poll in Manhattan and the majority of the people were for it. Well, polls can be manipulated and I don't take much stock in them one way or another, because I've seen Gov't and politicians abuse the "poll" theory. I wonder how many they polled actually "lost" loved ones in the tradgedy. It's easy for you and I to say whatever, but our father, husband, sister, brother, mother, etc., did not die there, at the hands of Muslim terrorists.
These are Americans, and we don't even have the decency to back up our own. Well, I don't agree they should build it. I believe they have ulterior motives, but by the time we find that out, It will be too late.
I'm done, and need to get on with some business at hand.
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Everything aside. You have to ask yourself.....why are they so adamant about building so close to a site that they know will only pour salt in the wounds of those who lost loved ones in the 9/11 tragedy?
This isn't "terrorist HQ" being built. It's a mosque community-center and anyone can enter of any faith. The reason political officials are backing it up is because it's a test to show we shouldn't be as xenophobic as we look. Muslims are the 'current trend' of enemies looked at by Americans as were the Spanish, Germans, Japanese, and Russians, etc in the past. Chinese will probably be next. As far as the 9/11 victims- many aren't supporting it but some are. Atleast the last time I read an article on it.
Why are they pushing this? Could it be that they look on this as some kind of coup? There's somthing else going on here, and we're being made to "look" intolerant, when all we want to do is give those who are still grieving, time to grieve, without doing it in the shadow of the symbol of what they had, and still have to endure.
This is well put, but ultimately we have to stand by our laws. Once you change anything with the foundation, you see a lot of others topple over. And before you know it, we've got '1984' on our hands!
Amyrouse was talking about how they took a poll in Manhattan and the majority of the people were for it. Well, polls can be manipulated and I don't take much stock in them one way or another, because I've seen Gov't and politicians abuse the "poll" theory.
I agree. I've seen separate polls and they're all of different results in this matter. We need a country-wide consensus on this with a list of facts but I highly doubt that will happen.
These are Americans, and we don't even have the decency to back up our own. Well, I don't agree they should build it. I believe they have ulterior motives, but by the time we find that out, It will be too late.
Hey, it's a risk. I'm sure they're risking it getting burned down by christian extremists or some other group/individual. But imo I think it shouldn't be built either because I think any organized religion is an insult to the mind. But since this isn't really my type of battle, I'm standing with our countries laws.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
I do believe people are going to be put in jeopardy either way. Either some ignorant person will bomb the Cultural Center, or it won't be built and another attack by al-Qaeda will be imminent. I'm not the one being naive here.
Haha how would NOT building it invite an attack?
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It is absolutely IGNORANT for anyone to claim that Muslims don't believe people who don't believe how they believe don't deserve to be here. THAT IS PART OF THEIR RELIGION. If they are so peaceful, then where were the peaceful ones during 9/11 apologizing or taking a stand against those abusing their religion? They weren't because THEY ARE RAISED TO HATE AMERICANS. American Muslims raised here may not be bred that way, but that's how they ae bred there. THERE'S NO GETTING AROUND IT. They teach them Americans are evil like we learn the alphabet. Yes, from that early of an age. It's sad but true. I wish I remembered to save a great e-mail I got where a Muslim LEADER was speaking at an event where a few leaders of other religions were as well. The Christian one point black asked him, so our God teaches us to love those who don't follow our religion and your allah teaches you to persecute them? And he flat out answered yes. THAT IS NOT OKAY. Inviting an attack is letting Muslims do whatever the heck they want just because we don't want to step on their toes. Since they care so much about stepping on ours. If they did they wouldn't even propose the ludicrous idea to build a mosque by ground zero. Absolutely unnecessary controversy. There is NO REASON that mosque has to be built there and it's only going to stir up more crap, start more feuds, and end in another attack. BUT AS LONG AS AMERICANS ARE GETTING ATTACKED IT'S OKAY RIGHT? BECAUSE ITS NOT MUSLIMS?
WROOOOONG.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
I do believe people are going to be put in jeopardy either way. Either some ignorant person will bomb the Cultural Center, or it won't be built and another attack by al-Qaeda will be imminent. I'm not the one being naive here.
Haha how would NOT building it invite an attack?
Really? You honestly can't see it? Your vision is so singular...
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
I do believe people are going to be put in jeopardy either way. Either some ignorant person will bomb the Cultural Center, or it won't be built and another attack by al-Qaeda will be imminent. I'm not the one being naive here.
Haha how would NOT building it invite an attack?
Really? You honestly can't see it? Your vision is so singular...
You're right, everyone who doesn't agree with you has such a singular view on things. Ignorance.
You think Al Qaeda will take it as us having hard feelings over 9/11 and get mad and do it again. Right. They're gonna be really mad that we're upset they tore down our towers. Obviously we have no reason to be upset. If we'd just see the big picture we'd realize they mean well, right?
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It is absolutely IGNORANT for anyone to claim that Muslims don't believe people who don't believe how they believe don't deserve to be here. THAT IS PART OF THEIR RELIGION. If they are so peaceful, then where were the peaceful ones during 9/11 apologizing or taking a stand against those abusing their religion? They weren't because THEY ARE RAISED TO HATE AMERICANS. American Muslims raised here may not be bred that way, but that's how they ae bred there. THERE'S NO GETTING AROUND IT. They teach them Americans are evil like we learn the alphabet. Yes, from that early of an age. It's sad but true. I wish I remembered to save a great e-mail I got where a Muslim LEADER was speaking at an event where a few leaders of other religions were as well. The Christian one point black asked him, so our God teaches us to love those who don't follow our religion and your allah teaches you to persecute them? And he flat out answered yes. THAT IS NOT OKAY. Inviting an attack is letting Muslims do whatever the heck they want just because we don't want to step on their toes. Since they care so much about stepping on ours. If they did they wouldn't even propose the ludicrous idea to build a mosque by ground zero. Absolutely unnecessary controversy. There is NO REASON that mosque has to be built there and it's only going to stir up more crap, start more feuds, and end in another attack. BUT AS LONG AS AMERICANS ARE GETTING ATTACKED IT'S OKAY RIGHT? BECAUSE ITS NOT MUSLIMS?
WROOOOONG.
Gald to see you on here Mackenzie. I've been kind of preoccupied today
It's amazing to me with all the eveidence out there, that we are still alseep at the wheel. Do you realize that just in California alone, 60-75% of private banks and financial institutions are owned by rich Arabs. Most have their ties to the Muslim religion. Not to mention all the other mom and pop business's they've taken over like conveinence stores, ect. I know for a fact that for the last 25+ years, they have been buying up land here in California by countless acres. Very little is developed, most of it is just sitting there like waiting for something. They won't sell it under any circumstance even to make a profit. I left California (My native state) for Alaska and lived away for 16 years. When I came back, Muslims had come in and bought up hugh neighborhoods, built Mosques, and pretty much kept everybody out unless you were affiliated with Islam. Before you label me racist, you have to ask yourself if this is just random "settling in", or is there something else going on?
I just watched a video on a friends site on FaceBook, that someone had smuggled out of a hugh gathering of Muslims. When I learn how to get it over to you...I will. The Muslim speaker (had a Title of some kind, but can't think of it now), was talking about the "debate" over Arizona's changing immigration laws. He said it would not be hard to cross that border with just 4 lbs of Anthrax that would kill 330,000 people. He said, we can kill right up to the White House lawn. I'm sure a lot of you have read the controversy that it's just not hispanics crossing over, but muslims, by the hundreds, every week. Now before my Hispanic/Latin friends take offence to this, I feel you have every right to try and better your life (legally), but your peaceful, and love the United States. Anybody has a right to come to the US, and try to make a better life for them and their families. Infiltration, on the other hand is another thing all together.
Here's a vid trailer to the movie "Obsession", I'll try to get the other one up later, about Arizona Borders.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF4A8Nz-QBU&p=69794DBA90A094EC&playnext=1&index=28
I'm just trying to inject that maybe...just maybe, we need to be a bit more cautious what's going on right under our noses.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
I do believe people are going to be put in jeopardy either way. Either some ignorant person will bomb the Cultural Center, or it won't be built and another attack by al-Qaeda will be imminent. I'm not the one being naive here.
Haha how would NOT building it invite an attack?
Really? You honestly can't see it? Your vision is so singular...
You're right, everyone who doesn't agree with you has such a singular view on things. Ignorance.
You think Al Qaeda will take it as us having hard feelings over 9/11 and get mad and do it again. Right. They're gonna be really mad that we're upset they tore down our towers. Obviously we have no reason to be upset. If we'd just see the big picture we'd realize they mean well, right?
Let's say, a dog bites you while your back was turned? You turn around and face the dog, scold him, hoping he won't do it again. You turn back around, and he bites you again. Not only that, he bites all your neighbors (world) when they're not looking numerous times, and somehow blames YOU for his bad behaivor, and claims you make him sleep outside. The dog demands part of your house, and takes actions to oust you from your own house. So, in order to keep the dog happy, you move and give him part of the house, hoping that through your kindness, the dog may learn peace and kindness. The dog just isn't happy with your house now, he want's all the houses, and want's to turn their inhabitants into dogs like himself. When he meets resistance to his plan, he simply kills his resistance....no questions asked.
Now you know how Israel feels.............
Get ready, because we've been introduced to that dog, and he's already bit us really hard once (9/11), and you've already scolded him once...............
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Everything aside. You have to ask yourself.....why are they so adamant about building so close to a site that they know will only pour salt in the wounds of those who lost loved ones in the 9/11 tragedy?
This isn't "terrorist HQ" being built. It's a mosque community-center and anyone can enter of any faith. The reason political officials are backing it up is because it's a test to show we shouldn't be as xenophobic as we look. Muslims are the 'current trend' of enemies looked at by Americans as were the Spanish, Germans, Japanese, and Russians, etc in the past. Chinese will probably be next. As far as the 9/11 victims- many aren't supporting it but some are. Atleast the last time I read an article on it.
Why are they pushing this? Could it be that they look on this as some kind of coup? There's somthing else going on here, and we're being made to "look" intolerant, when all we want to do is give those who are still grieving, time to grieve, without doing it in the shadow of the symbol of what they had, and still have to endure.
This is well put, but ultimately we have to stand by our laws. Once you change anything with the foundation, you see a lot of others topple over. And before you know it, we've got '1984' on our hands!
Amyrouse was talking about how they took a poll in Manhattan and the majority of the people were for it. Well, polls can be manipulated and I don't take much stock in them one way or another, because I've seen Gov't and politicians abuse the "poll" theory.
I agree. I've seen separate polls and they're all of different results in this matter. We need a country-wide consensus on this with a list of facts but I highly doubt that will happen.
These are Americans, and we don't even have the decency to back up our own. Well, I don't agree they should build it. I believe they have ulterior motives, but by the time we find that out, It will be too late.
Hey, it's a risk. I'm sure they're risking it getting burned down by christian extremists or some other group/individual. But imo I think it shouldn't be built either because I think any organized religion is an insult to the mind. But since this isn't really my type of battle, I'm standing with our countries laws.
This isn't terrorist HQ being built? No one said it was. You still have to question the motivation of their choice of site, and their disregard for the sensitivity of the overall situation. However, there will be ample space to "house" just about anyone they want to. As far as people who lost loved ones in 9/11, only 5 has voiced approval, which was "pumped" up by the media. No one else is willing to give a comment, or they are on the "no" side. If it's built, I'm sure it will be monitored by our Gov't with a eagle eye (pun intended).
Yes, we have to stand by our laws, and the now fragile fabric of the foundation that this nation was founded on. However, anyone who is in the military, or any Government position dealing with national security takes an oath to protect this land against enemies, both foreign and domestic (I took it, and meant it). THIS IS OUR COUNTRY'S LAWS! That includes anyone who could come on US soil and kill Americans indiscriminately. Oh, wait....they've already done that.
This isn't really your type of battle, but your still arguing about it? Your lukewarm interest is overwhelming.
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I guess some people have forgotten the Christians who were bombing abortion clinics in the 80's or the so-called Christians saying lovely things like "God hates fags" and "thank God for dead soldiers." Any religion can be twisted and used to further someone's hateful agenda. Anyone basically saying "well their religion is bad, but my religion is fine" needs a reality check. Do I think building a mosque there is a good idea? No. I think it will lead to more violence. I also think everyone is far too concerned with what is going to be built on or near that site. You can put a memorial park there, a mosque, a church, or rebuild the towers to be even taller than before. It won't bring the people who lost their lives that day back from the dead. It won't undo the horror we witnessed. It changes nothing.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
I do believe people are going to be put in jeopardy either way. Either some ignorant person will bomb the Cultural Center, or it won't be built and another attack by al-Qaeda will be imminent. I'm not the one being naive here.
Haha how would NOT building it invite an attack?
Really? You honestly can't see it? Your vision is so singular...
You're right, everyone who doesn't agree with you has such a singular view on things. Ignorance.
You think Al Qaeda will take it as us having hard feelings over 9/11 and get mad and do it again. Right. They're gonna be really mad that we're upset they tore down our towers. Obviously we have no reason to be upset. If we'd just see the big picture we'd realize they mean well, right?
I don't have an issue with people who don't agree with me. I just take issue with those who don't attempt to see the other side.
Of course we have hard feelings over 9/11! That isn't the issue here. The issue is that al-Qaeda runs on the assumption that Americans are anti-Muslim and that we are out to take down their religion. Now, here is an opportunity to build a cultural center, and we're freaking out because part of that cultural center is a place of worship for Muslims. Other houses of worship for Muslims have already been attacked and burned to the ground by Americans. We're pro-Israel, and every time something happens on American soil, our first conclusion is that Arabs/Muslims were behind it. Do the math. You say the issue isn't anti-Muslim for you. OK, I'll bite. How does it appear, then? Tell me how bin Laden isn't going to jump on this outcry against the cultural center as a mosque and if the place isn't built, how he's just going to sit back and say "oh, good for them. They stood up to us because we hurt their country."
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It is absolutely IGNORANT for anyone to claim that Muslims don't believe people who don't believe how they believe don't deserve to be here. THAT IS PART OF THEIR RELIGION. If they are so peaceful, then where were the peaceful ones during 9/11 apologizing or taking a stand against those abusing their religion? They weren't because THEY ARE RAISED TO HATE AMERICANS. American Muslims raised here may not be bred that way, but that's how they ae bred there. THERE'S NO GETTING AROUND IT. They teach them Americans are evil like we learn the alphabet. Yes, from that early of an age. It's sad but true. I wish I remembered to save a great e-mail I got where a Muslim LEADER was speaking at an event where a few leaders of other religions were as well. The Christian one point black asked him, so our God teaches us to love those who don't follow our religion and your allah teaches you to persecute them? And he flat out answered yes. THAT IS NOT OKAY. Inviting an attack is letting Muslims do whatever the heck they want just because we don't want to step on their toes. Since they care so much about stepping on ours. If they did they wouldn't even propose the ludicrous idea to build a mosque by ground zero. Absolutely unnecessary controversy. There is NO REASON that mosque has to be built there and it's only going to stir up more crap, start more feuds, and end in another attack. BUT AS LONG AS AMERICANS ARE GETTING ATTACKED IT'S OKAY RIGHT? BECAUSE ITS NOT MUSLIMS?
WROOOOONG.
I am coming from much the same place as amyrouse in her saying: ”I don’t have an issue with people who don’t agree with me. I just take issue with those who don’t attempt to see the other side.” I have not decided if the mosque/community center in NYC should be built or not. As Falconer said, it’s not my call. However, when I see paragraphs such as your’s that exude ‘Islamophobia’, I have to speak up.
How can you possibly make a statement that says, in part, “then where were the peaceful ones during 9/11 apologizing or taking a stand against those abusing their religion?” You know this, for a fact, there were none apologizing or taking a stand against this? You lived this directly and have personal experience to back it up? How old were you when 9/11 happened - 10 years old? You were living in Texas and I highly doubt you can say you were working with any Muslims in New York, Washington, or Philadelphia. How much exposure did you actually have to Muslims or their families on that day. Heck, how much do you even have today? Passionate statements are great, but not when they are born of ignorance, and that one is.
If you are aware of them, do you believe that all the large mosques and prayer centers that went up in large cities across the country after 9/11 should have been stopped from being constructed? Do you believe the Pentagon Prayer Center built in 2002 not 100 yards from where Flight 77 slammed into the building should never have been built? After all, it is used by Muslim Pentagon workers for their daily prayer. Speaking of the Pentagon and military personnel, do you realize that in the US Army alone there are 1,977 active duty Muslims, almost 500 National Guardsmen, and just over 600 Muslim Army Reservists? Perhaps we should boot them out - how could they be on our side, just because they serve for us? Yes, before it is said, I know about the Fort Hood shootings by a Muslim psychiatrist.
Do you know that an estimated 300 Muslim Americans also died that day? I am NOT referring to anyone on the planes in charge or participating in this, but will include the Muslim passengers on those planes. Along with Muslims who worked in the Twin Towers in varying capacities, as Emergency Responders on the scene, taxi drivers, restaurant workers, etc. They lost their lives and their families lost loved ones that day. Do you NOT think THEY mourned? It does NOT make up for what happened, but MANY Muslims who had nothing to do with that day were attacked, maimed, and killed. Did/do they deserve that? Not in my opinion.
At the time of 9/11, I was working in one of the largest, most respected hospitals in this country and I still am. On that day, and for months after, I saw Muslim doctors, nurses, techs, administrators - every job performed in a hospital, crying like babies over what had occurred. Most walked with their heads down in shame. There was, after all, NO way to get away from it because it was everywhere in our daily lives for every one of us who live in this country. You have no idea the shame and remorse that was felt and voiced by these people. Some took time off because they could not handle being there and being looked at by certain people, including patients. Brilliant doctors actually handed over any cases and surgeries they could for awhile because they felt no one would want to even be touched by them. Ours was not the only hospital to go through this either. I can speak only from my experience, but I am quite sure there were workers across the board in almost every job and every workplace in America who went through much the same thing.
There is a lot more I could say about this, but that’s enough for now - my heart is pounding just writing this.
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It is absolutely IGNORANT for anyone to claim that Muslims don't believe people who don't believe how they believe don't deserve to be here. THAT IS PART OF THEIR RELIGION. If they are so peaceful, then where were the peaceful ones during 9/11 apologizing or taking a stand against those abusing their religion? They weren't because THEY ARE RAISED TO HATE AMERICANS. American Muslims raised here may not be bred that way, but that's how they ae bred there. THERE'S NO GETTING AROUND IT. They teach them Americans are evil like we learn the alphabet. Yes, from that early of an age. It's sad but true. I wish I remembered to save a great e-mail I got where a Muslim LEADER was speaking at an event where a few leaders of other religions were as well. The Christian one point black asked him, so our God teaches us to love those who don't follow our religion and your allah teaches you to persecute them? And he flat out answered yes. THAT IS NOT OKAY. Inviting an attack is letting Muslims do whatever the heck they want just because we don't want to step on their toes. Since they care so much about stepping on ours. If they did they wouldn't even propose the ludicrous idea to build a mosque by ground zero. Absolutely unnecessary controversy. There is NO REASON that mosque has to be built there and it's only going to stir up more crap, start more feuds, and end in another attack. BUT AS LONG AS AMERICANS ARE GETTING ATTACKED IT'S OKAY RIGHT? BECAUSE ITS NOT MUSLIMS?
WROOOOONG.
I am coming from much the same place as amyrouse in her saying: ”I don’t have an issue with people who don’t agree with me. I just take issue with those who don’t attempt to see the other side.” I have not decided if the mosque/community center in NYC should be built or not. As Falconer said, it’s not my call. However, when I see paragraphs such as your’s that exude ‘Islamophobia’, I have to speak up.
How can you possibly make a statement that says, in part, “then where were the peaceful ones during 9/11 apologizing or taking a stand against those abusing their religion?” You know this, for a fact, there were none apologizing or taking a stand against this? You lived this directly and have personal experience to back it up? How old were you when 9/11 happened - 10 years old? You were living in Texas and I highly doubt you can say you were working with any Muslims in New York, Washington, or Philadelphia. How much exposure did you actually have to Muslims or their families on that day. Heck, how much do you even have today? Passionate statements are great, but not when they are born of ignorance, and that one is.
If you are aware of them, do you believe that all the large mosques and prayer centers that went up in large cities across the country after 9/11 should have been stopped from being constructed? Do you believe the Pentagon Prayer Center built in 2002 not 100 yards from where Flight 77 slammed into the building should never have been built? After all, it is used by Muslim Pentagon workers for their daily prayer. Speaking of the Pentagon and military personnel, do you realize that in the US Army alone there are 1,977 active duty Muslims, almost 500 National Guardsmen, and just over 600 Muslim Army Reservists? Perhaps we should boot them out - how could they be on our side, just because they serve for us? Yes, before it is said, I know about the Fort Hood shootings by a Muslim psychiatrist.
Do you know that an estimated 300 Muslim Americans also died that day? I am NOT referring to anyone on the planes in charge or participating in this, but will include the Muslim passengers on those planes. Along with Muslims who worked in the Twin Towers in varying capacities, as Emergency Responders on the scene, taxi drivers, restaurant workers, etc. They lost their lives and their families lost loved ones that day. Do you NOT think THEY mourned? It does NOT make up for what happened, but MANY Muslims who had nothing to do with that day were attacked, maimed, and killed. Did/do they deserve that? Not in my opinion.
At the time of 9/11, I was working in one of the largest, most respected hospitals in this country and I still am. On that day, and for months after, I saw Muslim doctors, nurses, techs, administrators - every job performed in a hospital, crying like babies over what had occurred. Most walked with their heads down in shame. There was, after all, NO way to get away from it because it was everywhere in our daily lives for every one of us who live in this country. You have no idea the shame and remorse that was felt and voiced by these people. Some took time off because they could not handle being there and being looked at by certain people, including patients. Brilliant doctors actually handed over any cases and surgeries they could for awhile because they felt no one would want to even be touched by them. Ours was not the only hospital to go through this either. I can speak only from my experience, but I am quite sure there were workers across the board in almost every job and every workplace in America who went through much the same thing.
There is a lot more I could say about this, but that’s enough for now - my heart is pounding just writing this.
Jordandog, you are jumping on a bandwagon and what has been posted is apples and oranges. I knew that some things were going to be taken as anti-Arab. No....I'm anti- Terrorist. It's been noted a couple times that this is a go nowhere debate.....I'm going to have to agree.
There were plenty of Muslims over here cheering while the twin towers burned. A friend of mine was in a 7-11, which is owned by a Muslim, there were a lot of his friends cheering while they watched the TV mounted in the store. It was a party atmosphere. No, not every Arab American was cheering, and on that day I'm sure a lot of them hung their head, because of their own race and what had happened.
I've presented some facts that should be extremely disturbing to us, but they are being lost with accusation of using the "racist" card. There is no other movement in the world that chants "Death to the Americans" in their religious gatherings. My church does not take their flag and burn it in the middle of our church parking lot. In fact, I've seen no "hate" against them stated (contrary to the Title of this thread). Just a listing of facts.
I simply love my country and my God. IMO, I see a pattern developing with this religion, and the absolute hate they have for us. It breeds hate and brain washes their children to carry on to the next generation. I've mentioned before that I've been in these countries and seen it first hand.....but that's not even believed.
Well, I've presented some undeniable proof of what's behind the curtain. This kind of got off subject, so I'll pull it back. NO, I'm in the section that does not want that Mosque built where they propose to build it. they can call it a cultural center, nursery, whatever. I, for one believe we're being duped, not just with this present agenda, but in whole. So that's my stand. You don't have to agree with me or I with you.
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I guess some people have forgotten the Christians who were bombing abortion clinics in the 80's or the so-called Christians saying lovely things like "God hates fags" and "thank God for dead soldiers." Any religion can be twisted and used to further someone's hateful agenda. Anyone basically saying "well their religion is bad, but my religion is fine" needs a reality check. Do I think building a mosque there is a good idea? No. I think it will lead to more violence. I also think everyone is far too concerned with what is going to be built on or near that site. You can put a memorial park there, a mosque, a church, or rebuild the towers to be even taller than before. It won't bring the people who lost their lives that day back from the dead. It won't undo the horror we witnessed. It changes nothing.
No nothing will undo the horror we witnessed, or bring back the families loved ones. However, does pouring salt in the wounds that are barely healed help either? I know a couple that lost their little girl of 5 months old. Some of the things people have told them are: "oh, your young, you can have more kids", "she's in a better place, at least she was young when she went", and "Thank God he took her young, you didn't have to lose her when she was older....it's actually a blessing", "It's a blessing God took her, she was so sick". Do you think that made this couple feel better, or was it a tad insensitive? Even though there was some truth to the statements. I didn't lose anyone in 9/11, and you probably haven't either. Who are we to say that this isn't bringing afresh what happened that day or it feels like a slap in the face to them?
You think building the Mosque there will lead to more violence? I agree. Okay, so why are they so adamant to build there then? Surely they must know how sensitive an issue it is to the American people, but "full steam ahead"!! Or maybe when the violence does come, they can appear to be the victim instead. They're already trying to appear the victim now. Also, what prompted the Muslims terorrists to resort to bomb the towers in the first place? Out of retaliation to us? NO, it was without provocation. Why, because of a religion that defies anyone who isn't Muslim, and must be killed, because we are infidels, according to their Koran (their bible). Have you even read the Koran? Have you even investigated at all what their religion is all about? The ignorance of your post above already tells me you have not. Have you watched any of the videos that were posted?
Do you realize that in Arab countries, if they are not followerd of the Islam faith, they are put to death? No other religion is permitted. It's not allowed, Only Allah can be worshipped.
There are lovely people who have come over here just to make a better life for their families. Unfortunately, they are the minority. On the flip side, those who bomb abortions clinics, hate fags, and are glad for dead soldiers are in the minority also.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
I do believe people are going to be put in jeopardy either way. Either some ignorant person will bomb the Cultural Center, or it won't be built and another attack by al-Qaeda will be imminent. I'm not the one being naive here.
Haha how would NOT building it invite an attack?
Really? You honestly can't see it? Your vision is so singular...
You're right, everyone who doesn't agree with you has such a singular view on things. Ignorance.
You think Al Qaeda will take it as us having hard feelings over 9/11 and get mad and do it again. Right. They're gonna be really mad that we're upset they tore down our towers. Obviously we have no reason to be upset. If we'd just see the big picture we'd realize they mean well, right?
Let's say, a dog bites you while your back was turned? You turn around and face the dog, scold him, hoping he won't do it again. You turn back around, and he bites you again. Not only that, he bites all your neighbors (world) when they're not looking numerous times, and somehow blames YOU for his bad behaivor, and claims you make him sleep outside. The dog demands part of your house, and takes actions to oust you from your own house. So, in order to keep the dog happy, you move and give him part of the house, hoping that through your kindness, the dog may learn peace and kindness. The dog just isn't happy with your house now, he want's all the houses, and want's to turn their inhabitants into dogs like himself. When he meets resistance to his plan, he simply kills his resistance....no questions asked.
Now you know how Israel feels.............
Get ready, because we've been introduced to that dog, and he's already bit us really hard once (1492), and you've already scolded him once...............
Yup, sounds very familiar.
I fixed your date by the way.
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Well Jordandog just about owned everyone spreading fear around this thread (Anella and Mackenzie)
This isn't terrorist HQ being built? No one said it was. You still have to question the motivation of their choice of site, and their disregard for the sensitivity of the overall situation. However, there will be ample space to "house" just about anyone they want to.
When I came back, Muslims had come in and bought up hugh neighborhoods, built Mosques, and pretty much kept everybody out unless you were affiliated with Islam. Before you label me racist, you have to ask yourself if this is just random "settling in", or is there something else going on?
Yes, we have to stand by our laws, and the now fragile fabric of the foundation that this nation was founded on. However, anyone who is in the military, or any Government position dealing with national security takes an oath to protect this land against enemies, both foreign and domestic (I took it, and meant it). THIS IS OUR COUNTRY'S LAWS! That includes anyone who could come on US soil and kill Americans indiscriminately. Oh, wait....they've already done that.
There were plenty of Muslims over here cheering while the twin towers burned. A friend of mine was in a 7-11, which is owned by a Muslim, there were a lot of his friends cheering while they watched the TV mounted in the store. It was a party atmosphere.
Do you realize that in Arab countries, if they are not followerd of the Islam faith, they are put to death? No other religion is permitted. It's not allowed, Only Allah can be worshipped
Fear mongering.
No, not every Arab American was cheering, and on that day I'm sure a lot of them hung their head, because of their own race and what had happened
I was in my HS physics class when the planes hit and the dude infront of me (pale white--probably Irish) started clapping as it showed it on the tv. Fortunately another kid infront of him turned around and said "A ton of people just died and you're clapping!? What the *bleep* is wrong with you!?" That shut him up immediatly since the kid in front said it really loud. The teacher didn't even respond to what was going on. Again this all stems from ignorance. Did those muslims in the 7-11 know who crashed the planes? Ultimately these individuals are just stupid assholes (be it with a religion or without) and nothing more. I spit at their lack of empathy because you don't just see this quality in muslims. You see it everywhere.
I simply love my country and my God. IMO, I see a pattern developing with this religion, and the absolute hate they have for us. It breeds hate and brain washes their children to carry on to the next generation. I've mentioned before that I've been in these countries and seen it first hand.....but that's not even believed.
This sounds vaguely familiar to some other major religion I know of. Anyway, I'm just going to requote part of the OP--
It’s an extraordinarily dangerous game, not only for the American Muslim community but for U.S. national security as well. Ali Soufan, a former FBI agent who has interrogated several dangerous terrorists, wrote this week that “when demagogues appear to be equating Islam with terrorism” it reinforces “the message that radicalizers are selling: That the war is against Islam, and Muslims are not welcome in America.” He added: “from a national security perspective, our leaders need to understand that no one is likely to be happier with the opposition to building a mosque than Osama Bin Laden. His next video script has just written itself.”
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Annella,
I was replying to someone else's post, not your's, but it seems you felt a need to answer for her. I am not "jumping on a bandwagon". I addressed direct and unedited comments made by that poster and hardly feel that "what has been posted is apples and oranges" if that was directed at my post.
Do you realize that in Arab countries, if they are not followerd of the Islam faith, they are put to death? No other religion is permitted. It's not allowed, Only Allah can be worshipped.
I have no idea where you got that from, but there are Arab Christians in Arab nations throughout the Middle East and parts of Africa. Large numbers of Arab Christians are found in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iraq, Jordan, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. While they may be/feel persecuted and may be in dangerous situations at various times, I don't know of any area where they are "put to death". The way you stated that it sounds as if it is an 'automatic' thing happening. There are also a large number of Arab Jews and those of other faiths in Arab countries also.
edited to add: I don't know if you are aware of this, I highly doubt it, but a Muslim male is permitted to marry a Christian. Females are required to stay within the faith.
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I don't appreciate my post taken, copied, and then changed to fit what you want it to say. That is rude and absolutely unacceptable. Walksalone.... Somehow I don't think Admin. would think this acceptable. Write your own posts to vent your own personal vendetta. Copying my posts, and then altering them is not acceptable.
I'm out.
To those who will read the date in my post of being 1492 was changed from the original post of 9/11, by Walksalone. The date is 9/11, and should be viewed as such.
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...he just pointed out the hipocrisy...
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...he just pointed out the hipocrisy...
He can do it in HIS own post, without altering mine. If you want to "quote" my post verbatim, that's acceptable, and then add your comment below it, that's what the option is for. There is no option on the FC Forum to do what he did.
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Annella,
I was replying to someone else's post, not your's, but it seems you felt a need to answer for her. I am not "jumping on a bandwagon". I addressed direct and unedited comments made by that poster and hardly feel that "what has been posted is apples and oranges" if that was directed at my post.
Do you realize that in Arab countries, if they are not followerd of the Islam faith, they are put to death? No other religion is permitted. It's not allowed, Only Allah can be worshipped.
I have no idea where you got that from, but there are Arab Christians in Arab nations throughout the Middle East and parts of Africa. Large numbers of Arab Christians are found in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iraq, Jordan, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. While they may be/feel persecuted and may be in dangerous situations at various times, I don't know of any area where they are "put to death". The way you stated that it sounds as if it is an 'automatic' thing happening. There are also a large number of Arab Jews and those of other faiths in Arab countries also.
edited to add: I don't know if you are aware of this, I highly doubt it, but a Muslim male is permitted to marry a Christian. Females are required to stay within the faith.
There are most certainly Arab Christians, but in a lot of places they have to worship underground. Without going into detail.....I happen to know this for a fact. It all depends where you are. The countries you mentioned have some freedom of religion. Especially Syria who rides the fence and can't decide who's side it's on. However, there are parts or provinces of a couple of the countries you metioned that the Muslim religion is strictly enforced and the worship of Allah is only permitted. Sometimes it comes down to an area no bigger than a small town. Beheadings and stonings happen because the Mosque elders take rule somewhere and implement their own version of ther Koran.
I could go into much more detail, but knowing this is a public forum, I won't say anymore that might put my Arab Christian Brothers and Sisters in danger.
I did not mean to say everywhere, but there is enough cohersion to force some Christians underground. I'm being vague for a reason. The borders always change too. I've been to the West Bank numerous times, and every time I cross over, the border has moved forward a little or back....it's kind of funny really. Bethlehem now is under complete Arab rule. Some churches (like the Church of the Nativity) is still open for tours, but no services are permitted. or they weren't when I was there. Almost every Jew or Christian has moved out, or been pushed out. Because there are Holy sites (Rebekka's Tomb) in Bethlehem, there was a coup for the Arabs to take it over. I couldn't get anywhere near the Tomb as it was Arab controlled and forbidden to view. Bethlehem is actually kind of a ghost town now with very little populace.
The security wall they have up now, built around Jerusalem, leaves Bethlehem outside it. Pictures of the wall don't show you how massive and intimidating it is in real life. It's somehting to behold. Jerusalem and Bethlehem are only a short ways from each other.....maybe 3 miles.
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The conversation is heated, and things are being lost on both sides. I haven't ignored what you've posted, Annella. I do find the examples that you have provided as blood curdling; however, I can't believe that all Muslims are this way. Jordandog has made a post to this effect. I agree that the planned site for the Cultural Center is insensitive; however, I don't feel that the site should be denied based solely on religion. I understand that the posters in this thread are not all necessarily anti-Muslim; however, the arguments given have the appearance of being anti-Muslim...especially to outsiders.
I do not believe that the Cultural Center will invite an attack from al-Qaeda. The attacks I see occurring should the Center be built are from Americans who are anti-Muslim...and there are some out there. I agree with Falconer02 and the writer of the article that denying the site will be a declaration of open season from al-Qaeda. This alone is not my only motivation for thinking the Center should be built, but it is one very powerful one.
I believe that this is a sad situation. I, however, am not moved from my opinion that it would be wrong to deny the Cordoba Initiative the site for the Cultural Center. :peace:
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The conversation is heated, and things are being lost on both sides. I haven't ignored what you've posted, Annella. I do find the examples that you have provided as blood curdling; however, I can't believe that all Muslims are this way. Jordandog has made a post to this effect. I agree that the planned site for the Cultural Center is insensitive; however, I don't feel that the site should be denied based solely on religion. I understand that the posters in this thread are not all necessarily anti-Muslim; however, the arguments given have the appearance of being anti-Muslim...especially to outsiders.
I do not believe that the Cultural Center will invite an attack from al-Qaeda. The attacks I see occurring should the Center be built are from Americans who are anti-Muslim...and there are some out there. I agree with Falconer02 and the writer of the article that denying the site will be a declaration of open season from al-Qaeda. This alone is not my only motivation for thinking the Center should be built, but it is one very powerful one.
I believe that this is a sad situation. I, however, am not moved from my opinion that it would be wrong to deny the Cordoba Initiative the site for the Cultural Center. :peace:
The conversation is not heated, but I see I'm the only one posting on the no side. No wait, Mackenzie is there also, she can't be on a lot as she had to prep for college.
Could it be that they are pushing this so hard, so they will incite anger in the American people, then when anger takes it's course and someone does something, they have an excuse for recourse of action on their part.............
Another question: Do we roll over and give them what they want because it will be viewed (by them) as an act of rebuff against them, so they have another reason for retaliation? Kind of like a kid throwing a fit, and wanting candy, but getting it refused?
May I remind you that the attacks on the twin towers incited no provocation on our part whatsoever.......none!!
These are just questions...........
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I personally do not believe that the Mosque should be built there at Ground Zero, and IF it is, I believe that families of the victims of 9/11 will blow it up.....I say more power to them!!!
All things that are legal ARE NOT RIGHT!!
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He can do it in HIS own post, without altering mine.
It was funnier his way though! lol I'm just kiddin' ya
The attacks on the twin towers incited no provocation on our part whatsoever.......none!!
The presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, was the supposed reason behind the 9/11 attacks. There's a loooooooooong history of provocation between us and them.
Do we roll over and give them what they want because it will be viewed (by them) as an act of refusal against them, so they have another reason for retaliation? Kind of like a kid throwing a fit, and wanting candy but getting it refused?
I wouldn't say "roll over" because that implies submission. Again, we're granting them the right to do this because of our foundation of laws. Call it being taken advantage of if you want, but remember you're part of a organized religion that rubs politics in similar fashions too.
I personally do not believe that the Mosque should be built there at Ground Zero, and IF it is, I believe that families of the victims of 9/11 will blow it up.....I say more power to them!!!
Wow. That would be a *bleep* move. Talk about hypocrisy and immature vengeance.
All things that are legal ARE NOT RIGHT!!
Then go burn it down yourself, vigilante.
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edited to add: I don't know if you are aware of this, I highly doubt it, but a Muslim male is permitted to marry a Christian. Females are required to stay within the faith.
Well thank you for insulting my intelligence, but yes, I know Arab men can marry Christians.
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Never did I say every Muslim is evil.
You can claim Muslims from the middle east aren't raised to hate Americans, but you'll be wrong.
I don't like terrorists.
I'm not anti-Muslims, but anti-terrorists.
Never did I say no Muslims died in 9/11.
My age at the time of the attacks is totally irrelevant and I resent you claiming you know more because you're older, try getting a more intelligent argument if you think that is at ALL relevant. I remember the day perfectly and understood even then what was going on. And don't think I've done no research on it since then. What state I'm from is also irrelevant, consider they're all in America, so I'm an AMERICAN. Although I'm SO SO SO glad to be from Texas.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are narrowminded. Grow up. Not everyone is going to agree with you in life. It doesn't mean they didn't consider your viewpoint. Everyone that considers your viewpoint isn't going to back down from what they believe and say my goodness you're right how could I have been so wrong?
I read the posts on here when I have time, if I didn't want to give your viewpoint a chance
1st- I wouldn't waste my time reading it
2nd- I wouldn't bother to do any research about what you say
and 3rd- I wouldn't have a valid argument, and if you claim I don't you are simply being petty and rude because I know for a fact I am not as unintelligent as some of you would like to have it seem
---just a few things to think about
If these people weren't a minority it wouldn't be such a big deal. If white Christians tore down the towers there is no way a Christian church of white people would be put up beside groud zero. In America we have a tendency to try to make up for how our ancestors may have mistreated people of other races by giving EVERY OTHER race and religion free reign to walk all over us. It is absolutely ridiculous. At some point we have to be a little more cautious and watch out for our safety.
I don't like terrorists. I don't like terrorists. I don't like terrorists. Does that mean I think all Muslims are evil and should be gone from America. Absolutely not. I would love, however, for America to look out for the safety of its own people for once instead of trying to please everyone else.
Who is Rauf? How does he feel about American's attitudes towards Muslims? What are his intentions? WHERE IS THE FUNDING COMING FROM?
Oh, and saying I want all the Muslims to be gone from the army was a useless statement considering I said nothing of the sort and have shown multiple times I an NOT anti-Muslim.
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He can do it in HIS own post, without altering mine.
It was funnier his way though! lol I'm just kiddin' ya
The attacks on the twin towers incited no provocation on our part whatsoever.......none!!
The presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, was the supposed reason behind the 9/11 attacks. There's a loooooooooong history of provocation between us and them.
Do we roll over and give them what they want because it will be viewed (by them) as an act of refusal against them, so they have another reason for retaliation? Kind of like a kid throwing a fit, and wanting candy but getting it refused?
I wouldn't say "roll over" because that implies submission. Again, we're granting them the right to do this because of our foundation of laws. Call it being taken advantage of if you want, but remember you're part of a organized religion that rubs politics in similar fashions too.
Yes, I know we were there, but we were also protecting the innocents. We went in with UN approval. There's a long history with them with almost everyone Falconer. Terrorist attacks just haven't hit us, they've struck everywhere. We haven't half incurred their wrath like the Israelis have though. Because we have backed Israel, we have incurred more than a lot of other nations.
If they do get permission, they will be watched, and that is a given. I know enough about the inner workings of our Nation's security to be assured of that.
Rubs politics in a similar fashion??? Uh, I didn't get that, but not important. You mean the Conservative vote? it's called Democracy.
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If they do get permission, they will be watched, and that is a given. I know enough about the inner workings of our Nation's security to be assured of that
Well yeah! I think anyone that even has a vague concept of this topic knows that.
Rubs politics in a similar fashion??? Uh, I didn't get that, but not important. You mean the Conservative vote? it's called Democracy.
Well if that's not an overgeneralization being put in my mouth, I don't know what is! I'm talking about when either the officials use christianity as a voting tool or when christians just try to scoot separation of church and state off the table. I'm referring to this type of crap among hundreds of other things that come and go-- http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/07/louisiana_parish_will_legally.php
Walksalone has also posted many threads lately on christians pushing things onto politics both past and present. If interested, I suggest you take a look.
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If they do get permission, they will be watched, and that is a given. I know enough about the inner workings of our Nation's security to be assured of that
Well duh!
Rubs politics in a similar fashion??? Uh, I didn't get that, but not important. You mean the Conservative vote? it's called Democracy.
Well if that's not an overgeneralization being put in my mouth, I don't know what is! I'm referring to this type of crap among hundreds of other things that come and go-- http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/07/louisiana_parish_will_legally.php
Walksalone has also posted many threads lately on christians pushing things onto politics both past and present. I suggest you take a look.
Thanks for the insult, did you really think that was necessary?
In case you missed it, after Walksalone made the sexual innuendos to me and Mackenzie, and then insulted me over and over again, I've made the choice to not post to his threads after this one, or to answer his posts, if I can possibly help it. It's a choice I've made for myself. However, I'm still getting documents in the mail that will be filed in the appropriate file as they are received about his allegations.
As far as reading all the Christians vs. his people, I've posted in length about it, so you probably haven't read those posts. In fact, this is it for me. I'll hand it over to Mackenzie it she wants it. Otherwise I'm done on this thread.
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Haha that was quite hilarious though, and the thread was locked before I got a response.
HOW is SurveyMack10 a manly screen name, HOW can you decide that I apparenly must be homosexual because of it, HOW is it that weird of a screen name considering my name's Mackenzie haha.
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Haha that was quite hilarious though, and the thread was locked before I got a response.
HOW is SurveyMack10 a manly screen name, HOW can you decide that I apparenly must be homosexual because of it, HOW is it that weird of a screen name considering my name's Mackenzie haha.
Sigh, yeah I know. I gave the Trophy back to it's rightful owner. Hey, I'll be back on in a little while, I'm printing out some pages here and it's a big job.
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The conversation is not heated, but I see I'm the only one posting on the no side. No wait, Mackenzie is there also, she can't be on a lot as she had to prep for college.
For quite a period there, I was the only one posting on the "not no" side; it comes and goes. I see the conversation as very heated, considering how the posts have gone.
Could it be that they are pushing this so hard, so they will incite anger in the American people, then when anger takes it's course and someone does something, they have an excuse for recourse of action on their part.............
That would be a George W. Bush move...you know, instead of invading Afghanistan after 9/11, to quickly redirect the attention to Iraq...but that's another topic...
The American people are already angry, and the only pushing I see are by the ones who are the most vocal about being against it. This is in no way directed at you, Annella. I have seen lies and miscommunications thrown all over the place. Against it? Completely fine...just don't make up something to garner support. http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/
Another question: Do we roll over and give them what they want because it will be viewed (by them) as an act of rebuff against them, so they have another reason for retaliation? Kind of like a kid throwing a fit, and wanting candy, but getting it refused?
You are taking what I said out of context. I may have worded it wrong. I was trying to be fair in what I was posting. It won't happen again.
May I remind you that the attacks on the twin towers incited no provocation on our part whatsoever.......none!!
From our vantage point, this is correct. However, what about from the other side? There is a long history there of things that Americans have done to incite anger on their behalf. I have already mentioned a few examples, such as the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing until it was discovered Tim McVeigh was behind it.
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I guess some people have forgotten the Christians who were bombing abortion clinics in the 80's or the so-called Christians saying lovely things like "God hates fags" and "thank God for dead soldiers." Any religion can be twisted and used to further someone's hateful agenda. Anyone basically saying "well their religion is bad, but my religion is fine" needs a reality check. Do I think building a mosque there is a good idea? No. I think it will lead to more violence. I also think everyone is far too concerned with what is going to be built on or near that site. You can put a memorial park there, a mosque, a church, or rebuild the towers to be even taller than before. It won't bring the people who lost their lives that day back from the dead. It won't undo the horror we witnessed. It changes nothing.
No nothing will undo the horror we witnessed, or bring back the families loved ones. However, does pouring salt in the wounds that are barely healed help either? I know a couple that lost their little girl of 5 months old. Some of the things people have told them are: "oh, your young, you can have more kids", "she's in a better place, at least she was young when she went", and "Thank God he took her young, you didn't have to lose her when she was older....it's actually a blessing", "It's a blessing God took her, she was so sick". Do you think that made this couple feel better, or was it a tad insensitive? Even though there was some truth to the statements. I didn't lose anyone in 9/11, and you probably haven't either. Who are we to say that this isn't bringing afresh what happened that day or it feels like a slap in the face to them?
You think building the Mosque there will lead to more violence? I agree. Okay, so why are they so adamant to build there then? Surely they must know how sensitive an issue it is to the American people, but "full steam ahead"!! Or maybe when the violence does come, they can appear to be the victim instead. They're already trying to appear the victim now. Also, what prompted the Muslims terorrists to resort to bomb the towers in the first place? Out of retaliation to us? NO, it was without provocation. Why, because of a religion that defies anyone who isn't Muslim, and must be killed, because we are infidels, according to their Koran (their bible). Have you even read the Koran? Have you even investigated at all what their religion is all about? The ignorance of your post above already tells me you have not. Have you watched any of the videos that were posted?
Do you realize that in Arab countries, if they are not followerd of the Islam faith, they are put to death? No other religion is permitted. It's not allowed, Only Allah can be worshipped.
There are lovely people who have come over here just to make a better life for their families. Unfortunately, they are the minority. On the flip side, those who bomb abortions clinics, hate fags, and are glad for dead soldiers are in the minority also.
It's ultimately for the people of NYC to decide. In my eyes that place will forever be cursed and nothing good will come from building anything there. It's my personal view and nothing more. You on the other hand are acting like you speak for the victims and their families. I'm from NYC. Where are you from? I was living 50 or so miles outside of the city when this happened. I still remember not being able to contact my father to find out if he was OK. I still remember driving over the Tappan Zee Bridge and seeing the city I grew up in covered in smoke, wondering what was going to happen next. Don't talk to me like you know me. As far as good Muslims being the minority, what are the exact statistics on that? Or on evil Christians for that matter? The actions of some radicals of their religion and you say that's the majority, but radicals of your belief system are the minority. That's awful convenient. Yes, the Koran has violence in it and some controversial statements. Kinda like the Bible in that respect. People have used and are still using the Bible as an excuse for hateful acts. As far as the attack being unprovoked, in their eyes it wasn't. We're forever sticking our noses in conflicts involving their people. You say I'm ignorant? Please. This sort of hypocrisy and fear mongering reminds me why I abandoned religion in the first place.
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@SurveyMack10:
If you are going to reply to people, it just might be a good idea to have what they actually said in front of you before replying. For the record, I do not 'like' terrorists myself. You said you 'hate' them, but we do agree on that part. I am only taking time to reply back to the glaringly incorrect things you put in your reply to my post about your's.
Never did I say every Muslim is evil.
Please point out where I said that you did say this. You can't because I didn't, so what is your point in saying it?
You can claim Muslims from the middle east aren't raised to hate Americans, but you'll be wrong.
Again, where did I make a claim such as this? I didn't, so another moot point/reply to my post.
Never did I say no Muslims died in 9/11.
Did I in fact say that you did? No, what I said and did was ask you a question about this ie:
Do you know that an estimated 300 Muslim Americans also died that day? I am NOT referring to anyone on the planes in charge or participating in this, but will include the Muslim passengers on those planes. Along with Muslims who worked in the Twin Towers in varying capacities, as Emergency Responders on the scene, taxi drivers, restaurant workers, etc. They lost their lives and their families lost loved ones that day. Do you NOT think THEY mourned? It does NOT make up for what happened, but MANY Muslims who had nothing to do with that day were attacked, maimed, and killed. Did/do they deserve that? Not in my opinion.
My age at the time of the attacks is totally irrelevant and I resent you claiming you know more because you're older, try getting a more intelligent argument if you think that is at ALL relevant. I remember the day perfectly and understood even then what was going on. And don't think I've done no research on it since then.
I feel you replying in the way you did makes your age very relevant. I never said I know more because I am older. If you really want to equate the experience and view of a 10 year old to the experience and view of a 44 year old on that day and tell me they are the same, no, not gonna fly. I would love to have you find one person on here who would say they are the same. You say "try getting a more intelligent argument if you think that is at ALL relevant."? Please. Do NOT say you "understood even then what was going on" - you knew planes had crashed, you knew buildings had been blown apart, you knew people died, but DO NOT say you understood why, understood the long standing distrust between groups of people, understood all the political ramifications, etc. Not at the age of 10, I do not buy that. So you have done research, good, but what is your point in that? I have done research on Pearl Harbor, every war America has been involved in, and a lot of other things political, but I would NEVER purport to anyone that I knew exactly what was going on in the Vietnam War just because I was alive during it and have "done research on it".
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are narrowminded. Grow up.
Where did I EVER say anyone who disagreed with me was 'narrowminded'? I would never bother talking to anyone if we all agreed on everything. As for this:"Grow up." Ahh, that shows right there what a child you are. A rude one at that.
Oh, and saying I want all the Muslims to be gone from the army was a useless statement considering I said nothing of the sort and have shown multiple times I an NOT anti-Muslim.
Here we go yet again with the old 'putting words in someone's mouth'. What I did say is this:
Speaking of the Pentagon and military personnel, do you realize that in the US Army alone there are 1,977 active duty Muslims, almost 500 National Guardsmen, and just over 600 Muslim Army Reservists? Perhaps we should boot them out - how could they be on our side, just because they serve for us?
Now, unless I am mistaken, that was a statement followed by a question, yes? Please show me where I said you stated "I want all Muslims to be gone from the army"? And you say that MY statement was useless?
Again, I never mind anyone disagreeing with me, but if you do, please get the facts and what I actually said straight.
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I guess some people have forgotten the Christians who were bombing abortion clinics in the 80's or the so-called Christians saying lovely things like "God hates fags" and "thank God for dead soldiers." Any religion can be twisted and used to further someone's hateful agenda. Anyone basically saying "well their religion is bad, but my religion is fine" needs a reality check. Do I think building a mosque there is a good idea? No. I think it will lead to more violence. I also think everyone is far too concerned with what is going to be built on or near that site. You can put a memorial park there, a mosque, a church, or rebuild the towers to be even taller than before. It won't bring the people who lost their lives that day back from the dead. It won't undo the horror we witnessed. It changes nothing.
No nothing will undo the horror we witnessed, or bring back the families loved ones. However, does pouring salt in the wounds that are barely healed help either? I know a couple that lost their little girl of 5 months old. Some of the things people have told them are: "oh, your young, you can have more kids", "she's in a better place, at least she was young when she went", and "Thank God he took her young, you didn't have to lose her when she was older....it's actually a blessing", "It's a blessing God took her, she was so sick". Do you think that made this couple feel better, or was it a tad insensitive? Even though there was some truth to the statements. I didn't lose anyone in 9/11, and you probably haven't either. Who are we to say that this isn't bringing afresh what happened that day or it feels like a slap in the face to them?
You think building the Mosque there will lead to more violence? I agree. Okay, so why are they so adamant to build there then? Surely they must know how sensitive an issue it is to the American people, but "full steam ahead"!! Or maybe when the violence does come, they can appear to be the victim instead. They're already trying to appear the victim now. Also, what prompted the Muslims terorrists to resort to bomb the towers in the first place? Out of retaliation to us? NO, it was without provocation. Why, because of a religion that defies anyone who isn't Muslim, and must be killed, because we are infidels, according to their Koran (their bible). Have you even read the Koran? Have you even investigated at all what their religion is all about? The ignorance of your post above already tells me you have not. Have you watched any of the videos that were posted?
Do you realize that in Arab countries, if they are not followerd of the Islam faith, they are put to death? No other religion is permitted. It's not allowed, Only Allah can be worshipped.
There are lovely people who have come over here just to make a better life for their families. Unfortunately, they are the minority. On the flip side, those who bomb abortions clinics, hate fags, and are glad for dead soldiers are in the minority also.
It's ultimately for the people of NYC to decide. In my eyes that place will forever be cursed and nothing good will come from building anything there. It's my personal view and nothing more. You on the other hand are acting like you speak for the victims and their families. I'm from NYC. Where are you from? I was living 50 or so miles outside of the city when this happened. I still remember not being able to contact my father to find out if he was OK. I still remember driving over the Tappan Zee Bridge and seeing the city I grew up in covered in smoke, wondering what was going to happen next. Don't talk to me like you know me. As far as good Muslims being the minority, what are the exact statistics on that? Or on evil Christians for that matter? The actions of some radicals of their religion and you say that's the majority, but radicals of your belief system are the minority. That's awful convenient. Yes, the Koran has violence in it and some controversial statements. Kinda like the Bible in that respect. People have used and are still using the Bible as an excuse for hateful acts. As far as the attack being unprovoked, in their eyes it wasn't. We're forever sticking our noses in conflicts involving their people. You say I'm ignorant? Please. This sort of hypocrisy and fear mongering reminds me why I abandoned religion in the first place.
I said I wouldn't post anymore in this thread unless I had to. Well I have to. I have to apologize for putting the word ignorance in my above post, and actually aiming at you (which was not done intentionally). That was not right and I apologize. I'm usually very careful about saying anything like that. You most certainly are not ignorant, nor is anybody. What I should have posted was misinformed. For awhile there I was posting so fast, and that slipped by the mental censor. It seemed like you had not watched the videos I had posted. Obviously they didn't make that much of an impact anyhow, if people watched them or not.
However, you have your own reasons and arguments, and they are just as important as someone who is against this. Your entitled to your opionion. This is still America, and we still have free speech. I don't want to post in this thread anymore (nothing to do with you), so if you'll forgive me. I'm moving on. I've come to the opinion that this is one of those divided stances and that's just how it is, and this is a no win situation on either side.
No, I wasn't there in NY. I'll give you that. I do however travel to these Arab/Muslim countries, and see some things first hand that would make your hair curl by it's self. Seen their hatred for anything American. Are they all like that....nope. Like I said in a previous post, I've met some Arab people that were not Muslim, and they are so sweet. Some times it's just where you are, and where the border happens to be that day. Now I know that sounds off, but you almost have to be there to understand what I mean.
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@SurveyMack10:
If you are going to reply to people, it just might be a good idea to have what they actually said in front of you before replying. For the record, I do not 'like' terrorists myself. You said you 'hate' them, but we do agree on that part. I am only taking time to reply back to the glaringly incorrect things you put in your reply to my post about your's.
Never did I say every Muslim is evil.
Please point out where I said that you did say this. You can't because I didn't, so what is your point in saying it?
You can claim Muslims from the middle east aren't raised to hate Americans, but you'll be wrong.
Again, where did I make a claim such as this? I didn't, so another moot point/reply to my post.
Never did I say no Muslims died in 9/11.
Did I in fact say that you did? No, what I said and did was ask you a question about this ie:
Do you know that an estimated 300 Muslim Americans also died that day? I am NOT referring to anyone on the planes in charge or participating in this, but will include the Muslim passengers on those planes. Along with Muslims who worked in the Twin Towers in varying capacities, as Emergency Responders on the scene, taxi drivers, restaurant workers, etc. They lost their lives and their families lost loved ones that day. Do you NOT think THEY mourned? It does NOT make up for what happened, but MANY Muslims who had nothing to do with that day were attacked, maimed, and killed. Did/do they deserve that? Not in my opinion.
My age at the time of the attacks is totally irrelevant and I resent you claiming you know more because you're older, try getting a more intelligent argument if you think that is at ALL relevant. I remember the day perfectly and understood even then what was going on. And don't think I've done no research on it since then.
I feel you replying in the way you did makes your age very relevant. I never said I know more because I am older. If you really want to equate the experience and view of a 10 year old to the experience and view of a 44 year old on that day and tell me they are the same, no, not gonna fly. I would love to have you find one person on here who would say they are the same. You say "try getting a more intelligent argument if you think that is at ALL relevant."? Please. Do NOT say you "understood even then what was going on" - you knew planes had crashed, you knew buildings had been blown apart, you knew people died, but DO NOT say you understood why, understood the long standing distrust between groups of people, understood all the political ramifications, etc. Not at the age of 10, I do not buy that. So you have done research, good, but what is your point in that? I have done research on Pearl Harbor, every war America has been involved in, and a lot of other things political, but I would NEVER purport to anyone that I knew exactly what was going on in the Vietnam War just because I was alive during it and have "done research on it".
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are narrowminded. Grow up.
Where did I EVER say anyone who disagreed with me was 'narrowminded'? I would never bother talking to anyone if we all agreed on everything. As for this:"Grow up." Ahh, that shows right there what a child you are. A rude one at that.
Oh, and saying I want all the Muslims to be gone from the army was a useless statement considering I said nothing of the sort and have shown multiple times I an NOT anti-Muslim.
Here we go yet again with the old 'putting words in someone's mouth'. What I did say is this:
Speaking of the Pentagon and military personnel, do you realize that in the US Army alone there are 1,977 active duty Muslims, almost 500 National Guardsmen, and just over 600 Muslim Army Reservists? Perhaps we should boot them out - how could they be on our side, just because they serve for us?
Now, unless I am mistaken, that was a statement followed by a question, yes? Please show me where I said you stated "I want all Muslims to be gone from the army"? And you say that MY statement was useless?
Again, I never mind anyone disagreeing with me, but if you do, please get the facts and what I actually said straight.
When did I say I posted this to you and directly in response you what you said?
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@SurveyMack10:
If you are going to reply to people, it just might be a good idea to have what they actually said in front of you before replying. For the record, I do not 'like' terrorists myself. You said you 'hate' them, but we do agree on that part. I am only taking time to reply back to the glaringly incorrect things you put in your reply to my post about your's.
Never did I say every Muslim is evil.
Please point out where I said that you did say this. You can't because I didn't, so what is your point in saying it?
You can claim Muslims from the middle east aren't raised to hate Americans, but you'll be wrong.
Again, where did I make a claim such as this? I didn't, so another moot point/reply to my post.
Never did I say no Muslims died in 9/11.
Did I in fact say that you did? No, what I said and did was ask you a question about this ie:
Do you know that an estimated 300 Muslim Americans also died that day? I am NOT referring to anyone on the planes in charge or participating in this, but will include the Muslim passengers on those planes. Along with Muslims who worked in the Twin Towers in varying capacities, as Emergency Responders on the scene, taxi drivers, restaurant workers, etc. They lost their lives and their families lost loved ones that day. Do you NOT think THEY mourned? It does NOT make up for what happened, but MANY Muslims who had nothing to do with that day were attacked, maimed, and killed. Did/do they deserve that? Not in my opinion.
My age at the time of the attacks is totally irrelevant and I resent you claiming you know more because you're older, try getting a more intelligent argument if you think that is at ALL relevant. I remember the day perfectly and understood even then what was going on. And don't think I've done no research on it since then.
I feel you replying in the way you did makes your age very relevant. I never said I know more because I am older. If you really want to equate the experience and view of a 10 year old to the experience and view of a 44 year old on that day and tell me they are the same, no, not gonna fly. I would love to have you find one person on here who would say they are the same. You say "try getting a more intelligent argument if you think that is at ALL relevant."? Please. Do NOT say you "understood even then what was going on" - you knew planes had crashed, you knew buildings had been blown apart, you knew people died, but DO NOT say you understood why, understood the long standing distrust between groups of people, understood all the political ramifications, etc. Not at the age of 10, I do not buy that. So you have done research, good, but what is your point in that? I have done research on Pearl Harbor, every war America has been involved in, and a lot of other things political, but I would NEVER purport to anyone that I knew exactly what was going on in the Vietnam War just because I was alive during it and have "done research on it".
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are narrowminded. Grow up.
Where did I EVER say anyone who disagreed with me was 'narrowminded'? I would never bother talking to anyone if we all agreed on everything. As for this:"Grow up." Ahh, that shows right there what a child you are. A rude one at that.
Oh, and saying I want all the Muslims to be gone from the army was a useless statement considering I said nothing of the sort and have shown multiple times I an NOT anti-Muslim.
Here we go yet again with the old 'putting words in someone's mouth'. What I did say is this:
Speaking of the Pentagon and military personnel, do you realize that in the US Army alone there are 1,977 active duty Muslims, almost 500 National Guardsmen, and just over 600 Muslim Army Reservists? Perhaps we should boot them out - how could they be on our side, just because they serve for us?
Now, unless I am mistaken, that was a statement followed by a question, yes? Please show me where I said you stated "I want all Muslims to be gone from the army"? And you say that MY statement was useless?
Again, I never mind anyone disagreeing with me, but if you do, please get the facts and what I actually said straight.
I AM NOW REPLYING TO YOU AND ONLY YOU- notice how I quoted you this time. Last time I did not, I was addressing multiple posts in one because I have class going on and didn't have time to quote each and every person and respond to what everyone said. Furthermore, I have the right to post things that aren't relevant to your posts. Even though I know you may not agree considering I am only 19, I do have my own thoughts. I knew far more when it happened than "planes crashed into a tower and people died." I am privileged enough to come from a school that educated us on what was really going on in the world as well as the basic history facts taught at every school. The part about growing up OBVIOUSLY wasn't directed towards you considering you arent the one that called me narrowminded. Me saying grow up in no way makes me immature. I find it immature for someone to say that someone disagreeing with them simply does so because they have a wrong narrowminded point of view when it's actually because THEY JUST BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY. If I post something that has nothing to do with what you said, it's fair to assume it wasn't addressed to you. Sorry that you have to be petty and address issues of how I posted something rather than what I posted about. Im trying to do schoolwork and this at the same time, sorry if I mess up a detail on here, I assumed we'd be focussing on the issues. If you think I'm rude it's probably because upon posting on here only a couple times I was immediately talked down to for being a Christian. Later then I post factual information about this mosque only to be told I'm too you to know and just must have a small mind. Sorry if I got riled up and came off as offensive, but then again you can't hear my town and I didn't use rude words like has been done to me many many times on here. Also, I know plenty of old people who are totally ignorant, so go right ahead and believe knowledge only comes from people of a certain age but that is hilarious even to think about.
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The conversation is not heated, but I see I'm the only one posting on the no side. No wait, Mackenzie is there also, she can't be on a lot as she had to prep for college.
For quite a period there, I was the only one posting on the "not no" side; it comes and goes. I see the conversation as very heated, considering how the posts have gone.
Could it be that they are pushing this so hard, so they will incite anger in the American people, then when anger takes it's course and someone does something, they have an excuse for recourse of action on their part.............
That would be a George W. Bush move...you know, instead of invading Afghanistan after 9/11, to quickly redirect the attention to Iraq...but that's another topic...
The American people are already angry, and the only pushing I see are by the ones who are the most vocal about being against it. This is in no way directed at you, Annella. I have seen lies and miscommunications thrown all over the place. Against it? Completely fine...just don't make up something to garner support. http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/
Another question: Do we roll over and give them what they want because it will be viewed (by them) as an act of rebuff against them, so they have another reason for retaliation? Kind of like a kid throwing a fit, and wanting candy, but getting it refused?
You are taking what I said out of context. I may have worded it wrong. I was trying to be fair in what I was posting. It won't happen again.
May I remind you that the attacks on the twin towers incited no provocation on our part whatsoever.......none!!
From our vantage point, this is correct. However, what about from the other side? There is a long history there of things that Americans have done to incite anger on their behalf. I have already mentioned a few examples, such as the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing until it was discovered Tim McVeigh was behind it.
GO GEORGE W. BUSH!
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What people fail to realize 911 was the act of radical muslims and the news strives to incite others by reporting on only the sensational aspects of most things. It would be a matter of being sensitive to the feelings of those who lost loved ones to choose another site. It would not be admitting they had a part in this but should show that they are peacable with all and have compassion for their feelings
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Thanks for the insult, did you really think that was necessary?
In case you missed it, after Walksalone made the sexual innuendos to me and Mackenzie, and then insulted me over and over again, I've made the choice to not post to his threads after this one, or to answer his posts, if I can possibly help it. It's a choice I've made for myself. However, I'm still getting documents in the mail that will be filed in the appropriate file as they are received about his allegations.
As far as reading all the Christians vs. his people, I've posted in length about it, so you probably haven't read those posts. In fact, this is it for me. I'll hand it over to Mackenzie it she wants it. Otherwise I'm done on this thread.
I didn't insult you. You keep taking the most general comments and turning them into something larger aimed against you to garner support. Very frail. Btw I edited my comment about 30 seconds after posting it-- you just saw it before I hit post so whateva. But seeing how you're gone from this thread, ah well.
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Well I'm not muslim but I do agree that groups of people should never be targeted just because someone else did something wrong. Just because one does it doesn't mean they are all the same. Everyone has to be looked at individually and not as a group. It was senseless, heinous act that should've never occured but it did and all we can do is move on. There's nothing we can do to bring those people back no matter how much we tried. A lot of innocent people lost their lives that day. I remember it as if it were yesterday. I remember crying and thinking my aunt was still in the building but she made it out. Thank God. What I did do was hate the actions that those people made, but I've never hated an entire group of people because of it. It's just a shame that the people who did it are dead as well and they can't be punished for what they had done.
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Thanks for the insult, did you really think that was necessary?
In case you missed it, after Walksalone made the sexual innuendos to me and Mackenzie, and then insulted me over and over again, I've made the choice to not post to his threads after this one, or to answer his posts, if I can possibly help it. It's a choice I've made for myself. However, I'm still getting documents in the mail that will be filed in the appropriate file as they are received about his allegations.
As far as reading all the Christians vs. his people, I've posted in length about it, so you probably haven't read those posts. In fact, this is it for me. I'll hand it over to Mackenzie it she wants it. Otherwise I'm done on this thread.
I didn't insult you. You keep taking the most general comments and turning them into something larger aimed against you to garner support. Very frail. Btw I edited my comment about 30 seconds after posting it-- you just saw it before I hit post so whateva. But seeing how you're gone from this thread, ah well.
Okay, I'm going to answer this because your are completely wrong and twisting things around.
You did insult me at first.....Ok you changed it. I didn't see it until you mentioned it......just now.
As far as garnering support for myself. That's ludicrious. If you don't know anything about me by now, I don't need to garner anything. I can stick up for myself just fine.
It's a personal choice I made to block a distinct, pointed harassment, pointed at my person, with lewd innuendos, and disparaging remarks. Anyone can go back, and read the thread, and make up their own mind. Play it down all you want. It doesn't fly. I know you stick together, and that's okay. However, the posts speak for themselves.....and the fact that he's still at it. with his latest thread, kinda makes this moot.
The thing your not grasping here is.......these are boundaries I'VE set. I don't need your approval or disapproval to set them.
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SurveyMack:
Sorry that you have to be petty and address issues of how I posted something rather than what I posted about.
You had more than enough things posted about exact things in my post to you, so how was I to know you were NOT addressing just me? That is NOT being 'petty', no need again to even say that. I am getting very tired of all the 'general remarks' being made around here. Then they are turned around so as to appear as if they were NOT said or said in a 'different way'. If you know anything about debating, discussing, or posting in forums you should know that is NOT the way to to it and have any kind of productive outcome. It all becomes one huge jumble.
I have never replied to any of your posts before this thread, just went and looked at my own posts to make sure. That means I am NOT one of those who has bashed you OR your christianity, but am constantly referred to as 'part of a group, a band, a follower', by Annella. I even got this remark from her in the thread that was locked:"Your taking words and using them against Christian, just like you've always done." That is a bunch of BS right there. So, if you have a bias against or a problem with ME because of how you were initially treated, you best look at who did it, because it wasn't me.
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I guess some people have forgotten the Christians who were bombing abortion clinics in the 80's or the so-called Christians saying lovely things like "God hates fags" and "thank God for dead soldiers." Any religion can be twisted and used to further someone's hateful agenda. Anyone basically saying "well their religion is bad, but my religion is fine" needs a reality check. Do I think building a mosque there is a good idea? No. I think it will lead to more violence. I also think everyone is far too concerned with what is going to be built on or near that site. You can put a memorial park there, a mosque, a church, or rebuild the towers to be even taller than before. It won't bring the people who lost their lives that day back from the dead. It won't undo the horror we witnessed. It changes nothing.
No nothing will undo the horror we witnessed, or bring back the families loved ones. However, does pouring salt in the wounds that are barely healed help either? I know a couple that lost their little girl of 5 months old. Some of the things people have told them are: "oh, your young, you can have more kids", "she's in a better place, at least she was young when she went", and "Thank God he took her young, you didn't have to lose her when she was older....it's actually a blessing", "It's a blessing God took her, she was so sick". Do you think that made this couple feel better, or was it a tad insensitive? Even though there was some truth to the statements. I didn't lose anyone in 9/11, and you probably haven't either. Who are we to say that this isn't bringing afresh what happened that day or it feels like a slap in the face to them?
You think building the Mosque there will lead to more violence? I agree. Okay, so why are they so adamant to build there then? Surely they must know how sensitive an issue it is to the American people, but "full steam ahead"!! Or maybe when the violence does come, they can appear to be the victim instead. They're already trying to appear the victim now. Also, what prompted the Muslims terorrists to resort to bomb the towers in the first place? Out of retaliation to us? NO, it was without provocation. Why, because of a religion that defies anyone who isn't Muslim, and must be killed, because we are infidels, according to their Koran (their bible). Have you even read the Koran? Have you even investigated at all what their religion is all about? The ignorance of your post above already tells me you have not. Have you watched any of the videos that were posted?
Do you realize that in Arab countries, if they are not followerd of the Islam faith, they are put to death? No other religion is permitted. It's not allowed, Only Allah can be worshipped.
There are lovely people who have come over here just to make a better life for their families. Unfortunately, they are the minority. On the flip side, those who bomb abortions clinics, hate fags, and are glad for dead soldiers are in the minority also.
It's ultimately for the people of NYC to decide. In my eyes that place will forever be cursed and nothing good will come from building anything there. It's my personal view and nothing more. You on the other hand are acting like you speak for the victims and their families. I'm from NYC. Where are you from? I was living 50 or so miles outside of the city when this happened. I still remember not being able to contact my father to find out if he was OK. I still remember driving over the Tappan Zee Bridge and seeing the city I grew up in covered in smoke, wondering what was going to happen next. Don't talk to me like you know me. As far as good Muslims being the minority, what are the exact statistics on that? Or on evil Christians for that matter? The actions of some radicals of their religion and you say that's the majority, but radicals of your belief system are the minority. That's awful convenient. Yes, the Koran has violence in it and some controversial statements. Kinda like the Bible in that respect. People have used and are still using the Bible as an excuse for hateful acts. As far as the attack being unprovoked, in their eyes it wasn't. We're forever sticking our noses in conflicts involving their people. You say I'm ignorant? Please. This sort of hypocrisy and fear mongering reminds me why I abandoned religion in the first place.
I said I wouldn't post anymore in this thread unless I had to. Well I have to. I have to apologize for putting the word ignorance in my above post, and actually aiming at you (which was not done intentionally). That was not right and I apologize. I'm usually very careful about saying anything like that. You most certainly are not ignorant, nor is anybody. What I should have posted was misinformed. For awhile there I was posting so fast, and that slipped by the mental censor. It seemed like you had not watched the videos I had posted. Obviously they didn't make that much of an impact anyhow, if people watched them or not.
However, you have your own reasons and arguments, and they are just as important as someone who is against this. Your entitled to your opionion. This is still America, and we still have free speech. I don't want to post in this thread anymore (nothing to do with you), so if you'll forgive me. I'm moving on. I've come to the opinion that this is one of those divided stances and that's just how it is, and this is a no win situation on either side.
No, I wasn't there in NY. I'll give you that. I do however travel to these Arab/Muslim countries, and see some things first hand that would make your hair curl by it's self. Seen their hatred for anything American. Are they all like that....nope. Like I said in a previous post, I've met some Arab people that were not Muslim, and they are so sweet. Some times it's just where you are, and where the border happens to be that day. Now I know that sounds off, but you almost have to be there to understand what I mean.
Fair enough, Annella. Apology accepted.
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Okay, I'm going to answer this because your are completely wrong and twisting things around. You did insult me at first.....Ok you changed it. I didn't see it until you mentioned it......just now.
It was never an insult in the first place. I just changed it because it sounded stupid.
As far as garnering support for myself. That's ludicrious. If you don't know anything about me by now, I don't need to garner anything.
You were fear mongering earlier though. I took it as this because that's the usual case of it.
I know you stick together, and that's okay. However, the posts speak for themselves.....and the fact that he's still at it. with his latest thread, kinda makes this moot.
Alright I can probably play the naive card here because I don't know the whole story of what's going on. Just keep in mind this all originated from me laughing at the date change of that one post pointing out the hypocrisy. As far as I can remember, that's all.
The thing your not grasping here is.......these are boundaries I'VE set. I don't need your approval or disapproval to set them.
You're talking to someone who argues with christians all the time...trust me...I know! lolololololol
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I have never replied to any of your posts before this thread, just went and looked at my own posts to make sure. That means I am NOT one of those who has bashed you OR your christianity, but am constantly referred to as 'part of a group, a band, a follower', by Annella. I even got this remark from her in the thread that was locked:"Your taking words and using them against Christian, just like you've always done." That is a bunch of BS right there. So, if you have a bias against or a problem with ME because of how you were initially treated, you best look at who did it, because it wasn't me.
Quote from: SurveyMack10 on Today at 01:03:14 pm
Quote from: Annella on Today at 12:49:16 am
Quote from: SurveyMack10 on September 01, 2010, 10:34:52 pm
wow, great title. pfft.
At least spell my name correctly in the Title......it's two n's.......
just goes to show how too many people on this forum are more worried about talking down to others than addressing the issues
Maybe I am reading or taking this the wrong way here, but you quoted Annella and then made the statement with "more worried about talking down to others than addressing the issues". I am interpreting that as directed at Annella. Am I correct, because if I am, I find that one very interesting!
Jordandog: Well, I'm on my way to the airport, and seeing if the Laptop is working, and I see a couple posts here with my name in it you posted, on different threads. Obviously you have a problem with me about something, but your not actually posting me....your posting others. Your indirectly addressing me, without actually addressing me.
So lets get it out on the table and discuss it shall we? I've got another hour and half in the car till we get there, so air your grievance. I see you posted one on a thread that I won't post on, and another on a thread I'm trying not to post on, but until we get this settled, let's use this one for now. Let's begin....I'll let you go first.
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What people fail to realize 911 was the act of radical muslims and the news strives to incite others by reporting on only the sensational aspects of most things. It would be a matter of being sensitive to the feelings of those who lost loved ones to choose another site. It would not be admitting they had a part in this but should show that they are peacable with all and have compassion for their feelings
I totally agree.
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SurveyMack:
Sorry that you have to be petty and address issues of how I posted something rather than what I posted about.
You had more than enough things posted about exact things in my post to you, so how was I to know you were NOT addressing just me? That is NOT being 'petty', no need again to even say that. I am getting very tired of all the 'general remarks' being made around here. Then they are turned around so as to appear as if they were NOT said or said in a 'different way'. If you know anything about debating, discussing, or posting in forums you should know that is NOT the way to to it and have any kind of productive outcome. It all becomes one huge jumble.
I have never replied to any of your posts before this thread, just went and looked at my own posts to make sure. That means I am NOT one of those who has bashed you OR your christianity, but am constantly referred to as 'part of a group, a band, a follower', by Annella. I even got this remark from her in the thread that was locked:"Your taking words and using them against Christian, just like you've always done." That is a bunch of BS right there. So, if you have a bias against or a problem with ME because of how you were initially treated, you best look at who did it, because it wasn't me.
If I am addressing you I will quote your post- like I did just now.
And I never said you were the one that did any of that, just said that the build-up of that is what gets me riled and probably why I come off as hostile. It just gets old that instead of addressing the issue at hand people resort to personal attacks.
Also, I do know how debate works. I'm not new to it.
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Hey Girlfriend (Mackenzie). Your right, I won't post on the other thread. The only reason I'm posting on this one is that my posts are already on it. Thanks for your post on the other one. I'm not stupid and see what's going on. I know your post was taken and twisted around. I'm going to address that. I seem to be the topic of conversation, and I'm not even around. I keep looking for the Paparazzi. Surely someone getting this much cover is famous.
I'm on my way out of the country and will be for awhile. The Laptop so far is working great. I should be able to post from where I'll be.....we'll see. I'll be in touch.
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Hey Girlfriend (Mackenzie). Your right, I won't post on the other thread. The only reason I'm posting on this one is that my posts are already on it. Thanks for your post on the other one. I'm not stupid and see what's going on. I know your post was taken and twisted around. I'm going to address that. I seem to be the topic of conversation, and I'm not even around. I keep looking for the Paparazzi. Surely someone getting this much cover is famous.
I'm on my way out of the country and will be for awhile. The Laptop so far is working great. I should be able to post from where I'll be.....we'll see. I'll be in touch.
I don't even understand how my post could have been construed as being against you, but on this forum anything can happen! It is all way out of hand and the issues aren't even being addressed anymore..sad.
I hope you have a great trip and will try to get on and put in my 2 cents in between homework haha.
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Thank you for posting this.
There is too much hate going around this old country: We all have the same color blood in our bodies. what's up about that?
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Annella, I already posted what upsets me, from the locked thread that was a part of your reply to me there. The other thing I said pulled in here by you from the thread of walksalone? I said I found it 'interesting' that Mackenzie wrote what she did. Why? Because it was posted with a quote from you about spelling your name correctly and she mentioned the talking down to others and not addressing the issue. Maybe you do NOT find that strange, but considering you 2 are friends, I thought it odd because you have not addressed walksalone's thread, so it appeared as if she was saying what she did to you, period. I don't know why that is such a big deal, it was just a comment and not meant to incite. That in itself is ridiculous. You have said why you haven't posted, but that's between you and him.
I have made very few posts in the lengthy threads re anything Christian for a couple months now. They have gotten to a point of being a circular argument/discussion between sherna and queen for the most part and neither side is going to convince the other. I actually stopped reading them. I have said plenty to marieelissa, but if you consider that awful because she is a Christian on a given day, well, that is how you feel. I don't include her in the group of well thought out posters on here, so I do not really care.
Therein 'lies the rub' as they say. Whether I am asking questions about the bible or religion and you are answering or I make a post without being derogatory in it, it seems that somehow it usually gets turned around and you are once again putting me in a certain 'group'. If you look back at the locked thread, where I took my quote from, you will see what I am saying - in part ie :"Your taking words and using them against Christian, just like you've always done." I DO NOT always do that. You have done it many times and it comes at me out of the clear blue. Why is it I can say things to amyrouse, sherna, sheryl, other 'religious' people and I do not get a backlash? If THEY disagree with me it is never posted in the same manner that you do. I won't deny your expertise on the bible, it's there. But you are not an expert on everything out there that is talked about in these forums. NO ONE is. It seems as if one minute you are calm and collected and the next you're making accusations, generalizations, and angry at anyone who doesn't agree with you 100%. I just don't work that way. I am NOT SAYING you do this ONLY to me. I have seen it happen with others and from their replies, they appear to be bewildered by it also.
I don't expect to be agreed with by everyone, but I do know about a few things. I just can't help wondering when you are 'nice' one minute and the next minute I feel like I can hear you seething at me because I am not in your 'christian family'. Defend your friends, I don't care about that, but I don't find it okay to put others in a bad light just to do it. I am not a doormat either. It's hard to explain, but that's the best I can do right now. I am already late for work, typed this out way too fast and I am sure I will see something I wish I had left out or put in, but I have GOT to go.
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Hey Girlfriend (Mackenzie). Your right, I won't post on the other thread. The only reason I'm posting on this one is that my posts are already on it. Thanks for your post on the other one. I'm not stupid and see what's going on. I know your post was taken and twisted around. I'm going to address that. I seem to be the topic of conversation, and I'm not even around. I keep looking for the Paparazzi. Surely someone getting this much cover is famous.
I'm on my way out of the country and will be for awhile. The Laptop so far is working great. I should be able to post from where I'll be.....we'll see. I'll be in touch.
I don't even understand how my post could have been construed as being against you, but on this forum anything can happen! It is all way out of hand and the issues aren't even being addressed anymore..sad.
I hope you have a great trip and will try to get on and put in my 2 cents in between homework haha.
Like I said, I'm smarter than that. I saw the message behind it. Don't worry, I have pretty strong resolve. I'll have jet lag for 4-5 days, as it hits me pretty hard. I'll check in as much as possible. You hit them books brainiac...lol
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They have gotten to a point of being a circular argument/discussion between sherna and queen for the most part and neither side is going to convince the other. I actually stopped reading them.
Have I been boring you jordan? LOL
As fas as this back and forth with Annella. I am seeing two intelligent people that happen to disagree on things and there is misunderstanding in tone. I can't speak for either person about what their intention is but maybe there could be a truce called? Neither of you hates each other, and there seems to be a mutual respect where intelligence is concerned. I for one don't like to see such discord.
Warning cheesy comment ahead....
Can't we all just get along? lol
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Annella, I already posted what upsets me, from the locked thread that was a part of your reply to me there. The other thing I said pulled in here by you from the thread of walksalone? I said I found it 'interesting' that Mackenzie wrote what she did. Why? Because it was posted with a quote from you about spelling your name correctly and she mentioned the talking down to others and not addressing the issue. Maybe you do NOT find that strange, but considering you 2 are friends, I thought it odd because you have not addressed walksalone's thread, so it appeared as if she was saying what she did to you, period. I don't know why that is such a big deal, it was just a comment and not meant to incite. That in itself is ridiculous. You have said why you haven't posted, but that's between you and him.
I have made very few posts in the lengthy threads re anything Christian for a couple months now. They have gotten to a point of being a circular argument/discussion between sherna and queen for the most part and neither side is going to convince the other. I actually stopped reading them. I have said plenty to marieelissa, but if you consider that awful because she is a Christian on a given day, well, that is how you feel. I don't include her in the group of well thought out posters on here, so I do not really care.
Therein 'lies the rub' as they say. Whether I am asking questions about the bible or religion and you are answering or I make a post without being derogatory in it, it seems that somehow it usually gets turned around and you are once again putting me in a certain 'group'. If you look back at the locked thread, where I took my quote from, you will see what I am saying - in part ie :"Your taking words and using them against Christian, just like you've always done." I DO NOT always do that. You have done it many times and it comes at me out of the clear blue. Why is it I can say things to amyrouse, sherna, sheryl, other 'religious' people and I do not get a backlash? If THEY disagree with me it is never posted in the same manner that you do. I won't deny your expertise on the bible, it's there. But you are not an expert on everything out there that is talked about in these forums. NO ONE is. It seems as if one minute you are calm and collected and the next you're making accusations, generalizations, and angry at anyone who doesn't agree with you 100%. I just don't work that way. I am NOT SAYING you do this ONLY to me. I have seen it happen with others and from their replies, they appear to be bewildered by it also.
I don't expect to be agreed with by everyone, but I do know about a few things. I just can't help wondering when you are 'nice' one minute and the next minute I feel like I can hear you seething at me because I am not in your 'christian family'. Defend your friends, I don't care about that, but I don't find it okay to put others in a bad light just to do it. I am not a doormat either. It's hard to explain, but that's the best I can do right now. I am already late for work, typed this out way too fast and I am sure I will see something I wish I had left out or put in, but I have GOT to go.
I assumed it was obvious that my comment about talking down to other was about walksalone calling annella out in the title of a thread-- I have not addressed it on the other thread. I simply meant that when the TITLE of the thread, the first thing anyone sees, is already being used to tear down others it is probably not a thread that is going to solve anything or even be about the issues.
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I was cheering when it happend, I on that day thought it was going to trigger a whole bunch of events that would lead to the return of Christ. :thumbsup:
cheering at the death of others is not a good thing
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It is just a building...It isn't like the ones behind the attack are putting up the building.
i have trouble following what you believe, you contradict yourself quite a lot
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I believe it is just a building and that the terrorists are not building it.
Well if Rauf can defend his and his wife statements about Americans that will help prove that there is no terrorist initiative behind it. However, either way I find it highly disrespectful
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Annella, I already posted what upsets me, from the locked thread that was a part of your reply to me there. The other thing I said pulled in here by you from the thread of walksalone? I said I found it 'interesting' that Mackenzie wrote what she did. Why? Because it was posted with a quote from you about spelling your name correctly and she mentioned the talking down to others and not addressing the issue. Maybe you do NOT find that strange, but considering you 2 are friends, I thought it odd because you have not addressed walksalone's thread, so it appeared as if she was saying what she did to you, period. I don't know why that is such a big deal, it was just a comment and not meant to incite. That in itself is ridiculous. You have said why you haven't posted, but that's between you and him.
I have made very few posts in the lengthy threads re anything Christian for a couple months now. They have gotten to a point of being a circular argument/discussion between sherna and queen for the most part and neither side is going to convince the other. I actually stopped reading them. I have said plenty to marieelissa, but if you consider that awful because she is a Christian on a given day, well, that is how you feel. I don't include her in the group of well thought out posters on here, so I do not really care. You took it out of context.
Therein 'lies the rub' as they say. Whether I am asking questions about the bible or religion and you are answering or I make a post without being derogatory in it, it seems that somehow it usually gets turned around and you are once again putting me in a certain 'group'. If you look back at the locked thread, where I took my quote from, you will see what I am saying - in part ie :"Your taking words and using them against Christian, just like you've always done." I DO NOT always do that. You have done it many times and it comes at me out of the clear blue. Why is it I can say things to amyrouse, sherna, sheryl, other 'religious' people and I do not get a backlash? If THEY disagree with me it is never posted in the same manner that you do. I won't deny your expertise on the bible, it's there. But you are not an expert on everything out there that is talked about in these forums. NO ONE is. It seems as if one minute you are calm and collected and the next you're making accusations, generalizations, and angry at anyone who doesn't agree with you 100%. I just don't work that way. I am NOT SAYING you do this ONLY to me. I have seen it happen with others and from their replies, they appear to be bewildered by it also.
I don't expect to be agreed with by everyone, but I do know about a few things. I just can't help wondering when you are 'nice' one minute and the next minute I feel like I can hear you seething at me because I am not in your 'christian family'. Defend your friends, I don't care about that, but I don't find it okay to put others in a bad light just to do it. I am not a doormat either. It's hard to explain, but that's the best I can do right now. I am already late for work, typed this out way too fast and I am sure I will see something I wish I had left out or put in, but I have GOT to go.
Your right, I will not post in Walkalone threads anymore.....it's my personal choice. My boundaries. That... is a good example of personal attack without provocation.....moving on.
Because we are FRIENDS, (Mackenzie and I) you should have known she wasn't referring to that at all. I feel you took that for an opportunity to twist her words at me. If you have some beef against me, say it to me. She felt bad, and posted me about not referring to me that way. I'm not stupid. You accuse me of taking it out of context, when in actuallity, you took it out of context, and twisted it. You say no....nothing can be further from the truth...........
As far as putting you in a group, I said it one time....not constantly like your accusing me of. You accuse me of doing it many times.....where? However, it's no "revelation" who the Christians, Athiests, Agnostics, or just those who want to jump on the bandwagon, are. Sherna put it pretty well when she said, it's not Christians, vs. Non Christians. True, there's more being represented than mentioned.
Now your judging my character. Nice one minute and then seething the next? Can you actually see that or maybe I'm answering the qestions in the same way they were presented. If I offend anyone, I'm quick to apologize when I'm wrong, or found to be wrong. Some of your accusations have no merit or they are your own personal feelings. I do not fling accusations, generalizations, and angry at anyone who doesn't agree with me 100%.....cheap shot. That is not true. The subject of the Muslim Mosque got very "heated". On both sides.....I might add.
Your making some very accusatory "flings" at my character, and I'm going to call you on it. I've never made negative responses about your character. You made reference to my "high and mighty attitude". I've never called people names said their remarks were inflammatory, like you've said to me. Everybody has a right to post their convictions, whether it be Chirstian or not. The very things your accusing me of, your guilty of them.
Not all Christians are cookie cutter robots. If I'm being attaked in a post without any provocation, or my brothers or sisters, it's going to get addressed. It's unprovoked. Not just you, but anyone who thinks they can say anything about the Lord I love, and the people that follow him. Oh I'm not just saying anything like a normal "razzying", but a real pointed attack, will not slide by. Sherna posts how she wants to, Sheryl posts how she wants to, etc. Everybody is different and everybody has a different way of expressing themselves. Don't try to separate Sherna, Sheryl, Amyrouse, ect., like we are different people. We are all in the same family, and love the same Lord. We are different in our personalities and postings, but there is no separation between us and there is no discord among us, so don't imply one.
Yes, I remember that long post about how you saw things changing in the Forum, how there were more and more Chirstians coming on and on and on......I'll go get it for the next post. What you were really saying is that you didn't like the change of the Christians defending their Faith, and more of them felt more comfortable posting. You went into great detail about it. Well, things change, and I've gotten emails from people on this forum who are glad to be able to join in again to where before they felt left out. I remember you started out with "what happened to turning the other cheek". That's the REAL problem here isn't it? You don't like Christians to stand up and lift up a standard when they are attacked. We are called hypocritical, but none of us have made disparaging remarks or damaging references to you about Atheism or whatever. However, it seems to be open season on Christians 24/7, and now when someone says....hey, wait a minute, then it's time to pull out the "turn the other cheek" and start judging us with it.
I never once said I knew it all. Man I wish! I get very fervent sometimes on a subject......so does everybody else. Never would I be angry because someone was not in my Christian family. That's absurd, I've devoted my life to taking this gospel to the lost. You've made a lot of negative accusations here about my character, and claims that I've done this and that. Those acussations are unfounded, or it's how you perceive it.
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My dad told me, the majority of people that worked in the World Trade Center are (were) Muslim...and thought is was ironic that they would kill their own people.
Please post a shred of evidence proving that.
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Annella, I think if anyone heard your voice on the phone they could never think badly of you! :)
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Annella, I think if anyone heard your voice on the phone they could never think badly of you! :)
Awwww... Thank you sweetie! :heart:
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My dad told me, the majority of people that worked in the World Trade Center are (were) Muslim...and thought is was ironic that they would kill their own people.
Please post a shred of evidence proving that.
Mack...before you waste much of your time...you really aren't going to get anywhere arguing with Marie. Really, many of us, including Annella, have tried talking to her. She just enjoys the attention, I guess. :dontknow:
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Annella,
Don't waste your time pulling posts from another thread in order to continue this. You were quite clear in how you feel and I don't need to read any more, thanks, but no thanks. If you want to do it for your own sake or so that others can see it and rally up, that's your perogative. I won't be responding to any more about this, so the ball is in your court. May the force be with you.
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Annella,
Don't waste your time pulling posts from another thread in order to continue this. You were quite clear in how you feel and I don't need to read any more, thanks, but no thanks. If you want to do it for your own sake or so that others can see it and rally up, that's your perogative. I won't be responding to any more about this, so the ball is in your court. May the force be with you.
Nope, not necessary, and others can read and form their own opinions. Actually, I don't have to "rally" anything. Have a good day, and God Bless you.
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My dad told me, the majority of people that worked in the World Trade Center are (were) Muslim...and thought is was ironic that they would kill their own people.
Please post a shred of evidence proving that.
Mack...before you waste much of your time...you really aren't going to get anywhere arguing with Marie. Really, many of us, including Annella, have tried talking to her. She just enjoys the attention, I guess. :dontknow:
Thanks for the warning, I see she has no intention of proving anything she says even when she is asked for proof so I suppose it's pointless.
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My dad told me, the majority of people that worked in the World Trade Center are (were) Muslim...and thought is was ironic that they would kill their own people.
Please post a shred of evidence proving that.
I don't need to prove it...you prove it wasn't true...and I will continue to know what I know.
So your proof is "your dad said so." Attaway to pull the facts. Know what you know, ignorance is bliss I suppose.
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My dad told me, the majority of people that worked in the World Trade Center are (were) Muslim...and thought is was ironic that they would kill their own people.
Please post a shred of evidence proving that.
Mack...before you waste much of your time...you really aren't going to get anywhere arguing with Marie. Really, many of us, including Annella, have tried talking to her. She just enjoys the attention, I guess. :dontknow:
Of course you won't get anywhere with me because I will not change my beliefs.
There is a difference between fact and belief. Read up on Mitochondrial Eve, yet, Marie?
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My dad told me, the majority of people that worked in the World Trade Center are (were) Muslim...and thought is was ironic that they would kill their own people.
Please post a shred of evidence proving that.
Mack...before you waste much of your time...you really aren't going to get anywhere arguing with Marie. Really, many of us, including Annella, have tried talking to her. She just enjoys the attention, I guess. :dontknow:
Of course you won't get anywhere with me because I will not change my beliefs.
There is a difference between fact and belief. Read up on Mitochondrial Eve, yet, Marie?
Read up on the fact that we are DUST?
Marieelissa, what in the world does your last post have to do with this subject ???
As far as the other stats....I'm not buying it. Oh, I don't doubt there were some Muslims that got in the way of their Muslim brothers blowing them to bits. They probably reasoned it out that they were sending them to paradise where the virgins were waiting. They seem to have no problem with strapping on a belt of C-4 and getting on a bus and obliberating themselves and everyone else there. I've never heard of any one of them taking an attendance roll if there were other Muslims on that bus or not.
There have been videos presented to the media, where Israeli soldiers have murdered men, women, and children, and you can see them all laying in a pile....supposedly dead. Then the next set of videos come up at some Muslim rally, and there are some of the same people in that one, and some are even wearing the same clothes from the "dead" one. I mean.....I believe in the resurrection, but man................. Someone should inform them there are costume changes between takes.
They have been caught more than once "staging" an attack, and then video taping the victims (uh actors).
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"Not all Muslims are terrorists," Bethea said. "Muslims died on 9/11, as well.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-07-mosque-ground-zero_N.htm
By my reckoning, 23 Muslims were killed in the 9/11 attacks, about 3/4 of one percent of the total victims. The Pew Muslim American study estimated that Muslims constituted 0.6 percent of the American adult population. So the percentage of 9/11 victims who were Muslims is very similar to the percentage of Americans who are Muslims. And Omar Shahin was off by a factor of 50.
http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/allposts/in-memorium-muslims-who-died-inside-the-wtc-on-911
So you agree that there was about 23 muslims that died in the attack? THREE FOURTHS OF ONE PERCENT OF THE TOTAL VICTIMS?
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My dad told me, the majority of people that worked in the World Trade Center are (were) Muslim...and thought is was ironic that they would kill their own people.
Please post a shred of evidence proving that.
Mack...before you waste much of your time...you really aren't going to get anywhere arguing with Marie. Really, many of us, including Annella, have tried talking to her. She just enjoys the attention, I guess. :dontknow:
Of course you won't get anywhere with me because I will not change my beliefs.
There is a difference between fact and belief. Read up on Mitochondrial Eve, yet, Marie?
Read up on the fact that we are DUST?
Marieelissa, what in the world does your last post have to do with this subject ???
As far as the other stats....I'm not buying it. Oh, I don't doubt there were some Muslims that got in the way of their Muslim brothers blowing them to bits. They probably reasoned it out that they were sending them to paradise where the virgins were waiting. They seem to have no problem with strapping on a belt of C-4 and getting on a bus and obliberating themselves and everyone else there. I've never heard of any one of them taking an attendance roll if there were other Muslims on that bus or not.
There have been videos presented to the media, where Israeli soldiers have murdered men, women, and children, and you can see them all laying in a pile....supposedly dead. Then the next set of videos come up at some Muslim rally, and there are some of the same people in that one, and some are even wearing the same clothes from the "dead" one. I mean.....I believe in the resurrection, but man................. Someone should inform them there are costume changes between takes.
They have been caught more than once "staging" an attack, and then video taping the victims (uh actors).
I was goading her, Annella. She keeps claiming that Mitochondrial Eve and Biblical Eve are the same, despite many posts with links informing her otherwise. I got annoyed, and I pushed. I try to avoid it, but I'm not perfect.
I'm sorry for pushing you, Marie, no matter how ill informed you are, and no matter how much you ignore the pleas to do your research and post fact instead of your version of truth. Free will and internet and all that...you're more than within your right to post your :bs:
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wow, this thread is in left field lol
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My dad told me, the majority of people that worked in the World Trade Center are (were) Muslim...and thought is was ironic that they would kill their own people.
Please post a shred of evidence proving that.
Mack...before you waste much of your time...you really aren't going to get anywhere arguing with Marie. Really, many of us, including Annella, have tried talking to her. She just enjoys the attention, I guess. :dontknow:
Of course you won't get anywhere with me because I will not change my beliefs.
There is a difference between fact and belief. Read up on Mitochondrial Eve, yet, Marie?
Read up on the fact that we are DUST?
Marieelissa, what in the world does your last post have to do with this subject ???
As far as the other stats....I'm not buying it. Oh, I don't doubt there were some Muslims that got in the way of their Muslim brothers blowing them to bits. They probably reasoned it out that they were sending them to paradise where the virgins were waiting. They seem to have no problem with strapping on a belt of C-4 and getting on a bus and obliberating themselves and everyone else there. I've never heard of any one of them taking an attendance roll if there were other Muslims on that bus or not.
There have been videos presented to the media, where Israeli soldiers have murdered men, women, and children, and you can see them all laying in a pile....supposedly dead. Then the next set of videos come up at some Muslim rally, and there are some of the same people in that one, and some are even wearing the same clothes from the "dead" one. I mean.....I believe in the resurrection, but man................. Someone should inform them there are costume changes between takes.
They have been caught more than once "staging" an attack, and then video taping the victims (uh actors).
I was goading her, Annella. She keeps claiming that Mitochondrial Eve and Biblical Eve are the same, despite many posts with links informing her otherwise. I got annoyed, and I pushed. I try to avoid it, but I'm not perfect.
I'm sorry for pushing you, Marie, no matter how ill informed you are, and no matter how much you ignore the pleas to do your research and post fact instead of your version of truth. Free will and internet and all that...you're more than within your right to post your :bs:
Ahhh......
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I have to apologize to the atheists and agnostics now...I am sorry, I realize it isn't just you guys, now I am getting it from "believers" :peace:
No response for my last post to you?
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I have to apologize to the atheists and agnostics now...I am sorry, I realize it isn't just you guys, now I am getting it from "believers" :peace:
No response for my last post to you?
I guess my dad was wrong...
You posted proof AGAINST your claim haha.
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But my original stance is the same...They are not building it on Ground Zero! What no one can build a mosque in NEW YORK CITY now!
A couple blocks away where it can be seem from ground zero, a bit disrespectful and will cause unnecessary controversy.
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But my original stance is the same...They are not building it on Ground Zero! What no one can build a mosque in NEW YORK CITY now!
A couple blocks away where it can be seem from ground zero, a bit disrespectful and will cause unnecessary controversy.
Gotta love America....FREEDOM!
Yup, unlimited freedom for the minorities that is.
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I have to apologize to the atheists and agnostics now...I am sorry, I realize it isn't just you guys, now I am getting it from "believers" :peace:
No response for my last post to you?
I guess my dad was wrong...
You posted proof AGAINST your claim haha.
Hardy Har har...I asked "isn't it true, that the majority of people who died on 9/11 muslim?" GUESS NOT.
Actually you said the majority of people that died on 9/11 were muslim, and it must be true because your dad said so.
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In america you have freedom to practice religion...get over it, a mosque is like a church or place of worship to them.
Lose the attitiude.
Until you can make a series of posts that are relevant and make sense to those reading it don't talk down to me. I've watched you repeatedly on many different threads make totally illogical statements that often don't even apply to the subject. Then you proceed to be rude and hateful to others and insult their intelligence. Half the time I feel my intelligence is insulted just corresponding with you. You said one thing then proved the opposite? Don't talk down to me because you post things on here before researching or even thinking through what you believe. You say no one can change what you believe, but you yourself are confused about it. You've claimed to be baptist. Then you claimed to not be Christian but you do believe in our God. Then you claimed to be psychic. Work on you then talk to me because I can't figure out what you're trying to say if you can't even figure it out.
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Muslims in America are obviously for their country...America is building a mosque, probably because of what the damn terrorists did. I wonder if like say a Jewish country attacked us, if Jewish people would get together and build whatever their place of worship is...
You just said you supported the mosque? But now in this post it seems you're against it.
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People are mean in this world...it is survival of the FITTEST...you can't cry over the wrongdoing.
I don't care...they can build a mosque, who cares? If you believe in God, then what is a building? It is worldy...you shouldn't be THAT concerned.
I could care less what God they believe in. Go read my posts from earlier in the thread before you post a bunch of crap. It's disrespectful and will stir up UNNECESSARY CONTROVERSY.
You seem to know everything. Do you know who Rauf is? Do you know his stance on Americans and how they feel about muslims? What about his wives? Where is the funding for this mosque coming from?
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I hope they do build it 8)
Oh I remember in march of 2000 being in NYC in a cop car looking for my grandmother because we got seperated and I had a thought in my head that urged me to get out of the cop car after the cops pointed out the world trade center and tell everyone that passed by that it was going to burn down...I thought I was just thinking crazy and ignored it...but damn it did burn down.
It is sorta like Final Destination without death coming to get the survivors.
So you're saying a cop told you it was going to burn down? WOW. I'm guessing you're one of those conspiracy theory people???
oh, and that post didn't make sense.
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In america you have freedom to practice religion...get over it, a mosque is like a church or place of worship to them.
Lose the attitiude.
Until you can make a series of posts that are relevant and make sense to those reading it don't talk down to me. I've watched you repeatedly on many different threads make totally illogical statements that often don't even apply to the subject. Then you proceed to be rude and hateful to others and insult their intelligence. Half the time I feel my intelligence is insulted just corresponding with you. You said one thing then proved the opposite? Don't talk down to me because you post things on here before researching or even thinking through what you believe. You say no one can change what you believe, but you yourself are confused about it. You've claimed to be baptist. Then you claimed to not be Christian but you do believe in our God. Then you claimed to be psychic. Work on you then talk to me because I can't figure out what you're trying to say if you can't even figure it out.
I don't like you.
I couldn't care less. I think you're unstable and unsure of things, you continuously contradict yourself and waste other's time.
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Muslims in America are obviously for their country...America is building a mosque, probably because of what the damn terrorists did. I wonder if like say a Jewish country attacked us, if Jewish people would get together and build whatever their place of worship is...
You just said you supported the mosque? But now in this post it seems you're against it.
People in America are building the mosque...not people from another country.
Then answer my questions about Rauf? Or do you even know who he is?
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People are mean in this world...it is survival of the FITTEST...you can't cry over the wrongdoing.
I don't care...they can build a mosque, who cares? If you believe in God, then what is a building? It is worldy...you shouldn't be THAT concerned.
I could care less what God they believe in. Go read my posts from earlier in the thread before you post a bunch of crap. It's disrespectful and will stir up UNNECESSARY CONTROVERSY.
You seem to know everything. Do you know who Rauf is? Do you know his stance on Americans and how they feel about muslims? What about his wives? Where is the funding for this mosque coming from?
No...Cause I don't care...is he an american citizen? Oh yeah I guess in america people can purchase land even if they are not citizens.
Right, because you choose ignorance over knowledge. Don't enter a debate if you're not willing to do the least bit of research on the subject at hand.
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In america you have freedom to practice religion...get over it, a mosque is like a church or place of worship to them.
Lose the attitiude.
Until you can make a series of posts that are relevant and make sense to those reading it don't talk down to me. I've watched you repeatedly on many different threads make totally illogical statements that often don't even apply to the subject. Then you proceed to be rude and hateful to others and insult their intelligence. Half the time I feel my intelligence is insulted just corresponding with you. You said one thing then proved the opposite? Don't talk down to me because you post things on here before researching or even thinking through what you believe. You say no one can change what you believe, but you yourself are confused about it. You've claimed to be baptist. Then you claimed to not be Christian but you do believe in our God. Then you claimed to be psychic. Work on you then talk to me because I can't figure out what you're trying to say if you can't even figure it out.
I don't like you.
I couldn't care less. I think you're unstable and unsure of things, you continuously contradict yourself and waste other's time.
So
Thanks for the productive response.
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Born in Kuwait in 1948, Feisal Abdul Rauf is the Imam of Masjid al-Farah, a New York City mosque. He holds a bachelor's degree in physics from Columbia University. His father was the late Muhammad Abdul Rauf (1917-2004).
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2462
In 1990 Feisal Abdul Rauf opened al-Farah Mosque in lower Manhattan. Seven years later, he established the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA), a New-York based nonprofit organization which has been run by Rauf's wife, Daisy Khan, since 2005.
Rauf is a permanent trustee of an Islamic Cultural Center (ICC) which his father founded in New York City. Until September 28, 2001 -- seventeen days after 9/11 -- the ICC employed Imam Sheik Muhammad Gemeaha, who later would say that “only the Jews” could have perpetrated the 9/11 attacks; that if Americans only knew about this Jewish culpability, “they would have done to Jews what Hitler did”; and that Jews “disseminate corruption in the land” and spread “heresy, homosexuality, alcoholism, and drugs.” Gemeaha’s successor at the ICC, Omar Saleem Abu-Namous, said there was no “conclusive evidence” proving that Muslims were responsible for 9/11.
In a 60 Minutes interview that aired on September 30, 2001, Rauf said that the 9/11 attacks were part of a larger Islamic “reaction against the U.S. government politically, where we [the U.S.] espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and [yet] where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.” "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened," Rauf elaborated, "but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." Rauf further stated that “because we [Americans] have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world,” it could be said that “n fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”
On another occasion, Rauf took up this theme again: "We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims. You may remember that the US-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children."
Rauf has clearly suggested that terrorism is an understandable, even if unjustified, response to American actions in Iraq, Israel, and elsewhere in the Middle East:
"How do you tell people whose homes have been destroyed, whose lives have been destroyed, that this does not justify your actions of terrorism. It's hard. Yes, it is true that it does not justify the acts of bombing innocent civilians, that does not solve the problem, but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of U.S. support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?"
Rauf has praised Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, a Muslim scholar who supports Palestinian suicide bombings, as "a very, very well known Islamic jurist, highly regarded all over the Muslim world." He has also expressed respect for the late Egyptian cleric Muhammad Tantawi (who likewise endorsed suicide bombings) and Egypt's Chief Mufti, Sheikh Ali Gomaa (who has endorsed Hezbollah and defended Islam's use of the death penalty for apostasy).
Rauf, who has been entrusted with the task of conducting post-9/11 sensitivity training for the FBI, contends that Muslims have been unfairly targeted by law-enforcement authorities in recent years. "There's no doubt we've been profiled since 9/11," he said in 2005. "The Patriot Act has kind of made Muslims -- there's a sense of 'guilty till proven innocent' rather than the other way around."
In the summer of 2002, Rauf began lecturing on Islam at the 750-acre campus of Chautauqua Institution, located in western New York State. Around that time, he also befriended Karen Armstrong, who later wrote the foreword for Rauf's 2008 book, What's Right with Islam Is What's Right with America.
Journalist Andrew McCarthy has revealed that What's Right with Islam was originally published in 2004 in Malaysia, under a different title: A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11. What's Right with Islam was a “special, non-commercial edition” of the book and was produced after the original, with Feisal’s cooperation, by the Islamic Society of North America and the International Institute of Islamic Thought. Both of those organizations are American tentacles of the Muslim Brotherhood. McCarthy explains the meaning of the term dawa, from the book's title:
"Dawa, whether done from the rubble of the World Trade Center or elsewhere, is the missionary work by which Islam is spread.... [D]awa is proselytism... "The purpose of dawa, like the purpose of jihad, is to implement, spread, and defend sharia. Scholar Robert Spencer incisively refers to dawa practices as 'stealth jihad,' the advancement of the sharia agenda through means other than violence and agents other than terrorists. These include extortion, cultivation of sympathizers in the media and the universities, exploitation of our legal system and tradition of religious liberty, infiltration of our political system, and fundraising. This is why Yusuf Qaradawi, the spiritual leader of the Muslim Brotherhood and the world’s most influential Islamic cleric, boldly promises that Islam will 'conquer America' and 'conquer Europe' through dawa."
Rauf's book suggests that the “American Constitution and system of governance uphold the core principles of Islamic law” (i.e., sharia). The author concludes, therefore, that the “American political structure is sharia-compliant.” In December 2007 Rauf promoted the book at a Malaysia gathering of Hizb ut Tahrir, an organization that seeks to impose sharia on the United States and other countries worldwide.
Rauf depicts jihad as the Islamic world's defensive reaction to Western provocations, rather than as a seminal Islamic tradition of aggression that long predated any Muslim interactions with the West. In March 2004 the Sydney Morning Herald quoted Rauf as saying: “The Islamic method of waging war is not to kill innocent civilians. But it was Christians in World War II who bombed civilians in Dresden and Hiroshima, neither of which were military targets.” In one particularly significant passage, the Herald article stated: “Imam Feisal ... said there could be little progress [in American-Islamic relations] until the U.S. acknowledged backing dictators and the U.S. President gave an 'America Culpa' speech to the Muslim world.”
In a June 2005 interview, Rauf was asked whether non-Muslims should be troubled by the Qur'an's assertion that people from other religious traditions should be mistreated, subjugated, or killed. Rauf replied that “many of these verses were revealed in certain contexts where the Prophet [Muhammad] and his followers were not allowed to practice their religion,” and thus “permission was granted to the Muslims to fight those who fought them for that reason.” “The vast history of Islam through the 14 centuries of history,” Rauf added, “has proven that except for certain moments in history, the predominant attitude of Muslims toward non-Muslims, especially to Jews and Christians, was one of friendship, was one of engagement.” In 2009, Rauf took up this theme again, writing: “Religious freedom is at the core of Islam.”
Rauf believes that Muslim charities have been subject to undue scrutiny since 9/11. In 2005 an interviewer asked him to comment on the fact that “some Islamic charities are being investigated for terrorist ties.” Rauf replied: “We believe that a certain portion of every [Islamic] charity has been legitimate. To say that you have connections with terrorism is a very gray area. It's like the accusation that Saddam Hussein had links to Osama bin Laden. Well, America had links to Osama bin Laden – does that mean that America is a terrorist country or has ties to terrorism? It's that type of logic.”
In 2008 Rauf revisited the question of whether sharia could be effectively incorporated into Western legal and political systems. He hailed Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams for the “forward thinking” that had led Williams to advocate on behalf of “plural jurisdiction,” which would permit Muslim enclaves in Britain to be governed by a separate set of laws consistent with sharia. In March 2009, Rauf said that “Islamic law and American democratic principles have many things in common,” and he claimed that sharia's endorsement of “political justice” and “economic justice … for the weak and impoverished” is a creed that “sounds suspiciously like the Declaration of Independence.”
Rauf contends that authentic Islam is highly respectful of women's rights and freedoms. In a 2009 piece he penned for the Huffington Post, Rauf stated: “The Prophet Muhammad has been known as the first feminist. … Gender equality is an intrinsic part of Islamic belief.” In response to suggestions that Islam could benefit from a movement to purge the faith of unsavory elements such as its treatment of women, Rauf has said flatly: "Islam does not need a reformation."
In a 2009 interview, Rauf endorsed the 1979 Iranian revolution which established an theocratic Islamic state.
In a May 7, 2010 sermon he delivered in New York City, Rauf seemed to suggest that the perpetrators of 9/11 may not actually have been Muslims. “Some people say it was Muslims who attacked [the U.S.] on 9/11,” he said, before drifting into another topic.
In a June 2010 interview with newsman Aaron Klein on New York's WABC Radio, Rauf was asked whether he agreed with the State Department's designation of Hamas as a terrorist organization. Rauf replied:
"I'm not a politician. I try to avoid the issues. The issue of terrorism is a very complex question.... I'm a bridge builder. I define my work as a bridge builder. I do not want to be placed, nor do I accept to be placed in a position of being put in a position where I am the target of one side or another."
In recent years, Rauf and ASMA have pursued a project known as the Cordoba Initiative, whose mission is to recapture an “atmosphere of interfaith tolerance and respect” in “Muslim-West relations.” Funded by numerous countries that are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, this Initiative aims to build a 13-story, $100 million mosque/Islamic Center just 600 feet from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan. The proposed name of the structure -- "Cordoba House" -- implies conquest. Indeed, the first Cordoba mosque was built upon the ruins of a Christian church in the Spanish city of Cordoba after the Muslim conquest of Christian Spain in the 8th century AD.
In August 2010, the State Department announced that it would be sending Rauf on a taxpayer-funded trip (costing $16,000) through the Middle East to foster "greater understanding" about Islam and Muslim life in the United States. This was Rauf's fourth U.S.-sponsored trip to the region. The first two took place in 2007 (during the Bush administration), and the third was in early 2010. State Department spokesman Darby Holladay stated that while Rauf "has been advised not to engage in fund-raising activity" during his August 2010 trip, the Department had "no information" regarding the specifics of Rauf's activities while traveling.
Rauf had previously said that he would seek funds from overseas to finance the $100 million mosque project but offered no specifics. A spokesman for the project refused to say whether Rauf would accept money from Iran.
In addition to his work with ASMA, the New York-based Rauf teaches Islam and Sufism at the Center for Religious Inquiry at St. Bartholomew's Church. He also is a member of the World Economic Forum Council of 100 Leaders (Islamic West dialogue); sits on the board of trustees of the Islamic Center of New York; and serves as an adviser to the Interfaith Center of New York.
Moreover, Rauf is a key member in the Malaysian-based Perdana Global Peace Organization, the single biggest donor ($366,000 as of June 2010) to the Free Gaza Movement.
Okay you copy pasted it, now read it.
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Allright smartalec. You can copy paste I gotcha, you didn't read a word of it considering you posed it 2 seconds after I asked you to prove it. You are beyond immature haha. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time.
It's scary that some people get to vote.
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Allright smartalec. You can copy paste I gotcha, you didn't read a word of it considering you posed it 2 seconds after I asked you to prove it. You are beyond immature haha. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time.
It's scary that some people get to vote.
And you call yourself a Christian?
Don't start insulting my religion, especially when you don't even know WHAT you call yourself. In no way did I go against my religion in my last post. Being a Christian doesn't mean I have to let you talk down to me. Furthermore, Christians aren't perfect and don't claim to be.
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Allright smartalec. You can copy paste I gotcha, you didn't read a word of it considering you posed it 2 seconds after I asked you to prove it. You are beyond immature haha. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time.
It's scary that some people get to vote.
And you call yourself a Christian?
Don't start insulting my religion, especially when you don't even know WHAT you call yourself. In no way did I go against my religion in my last post. Being a Christian doesn't mean I have to let you talk down to me. Furthermore, Christians aren't perfect and don't claim to be.
You are rude and maybe one day you will see it.
Cool.
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I don't need to have a religion to believe in God.
Cool.
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It has nothing to do with Americans hating Muslims. The 9-11 bombings were an attack on America, and the mosque builders know that they are insulting America as a nation by building the mosque at ground zero. why don't the Japanese build a Japanese cultural center on Pearl Harbor? the real scary thing that is spreading across America is a tolerance of anything anti-American, which can only lead to the downfall of our country. People need to put true patriotism ahead of political correctness, and false tolerance. Why don't the Muslims have some tolerance for Americans and their feelings?
Because the muslims are americans.
Cool!!
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Marieelissa, do you even go back and read what you post? I mean really...some of it is just "out there". It doesn't make sense at all.
Before you start calling Mackenzie rude, and insulting her, go back (if you can, they're probably deleted) and recall the names you've called people, etc. You mock her Christianity because she called you on your copy/paste postings, and your unrelenting stance that she actually asked you to read what you yourself had posted? You have caught flack on other posts from doing the same thing. You say your a Christian also on numerous posts, but don't display any Christian attributes for more than 10 minutes.
Yes, I know you have problems. Maybe you should turn the computer off for a few hours a day and take a walk or something. It would do you good. You claim to be a Christian, then turn around and mock someone who actually knows what she believes. However, I believe your one very mixed up young lady who needs some very special help.
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Quote from Mareelissa:
It is freedom of religion...do you really want to argue where they build their place of worship or whatever?
:cat: Actually, yes I do. It would be one thing to worship in their way. But, when they want to quietly infringe our rights by building more and more of these places of worship and schools because they are planning to slowly take over as the main religion, I draw the line. I don't trust them.
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Quote from Mareelissa:
It is freedom of religion...do you really want to argue where they build their place of worship or whatever?
:cat: Actually, yes I do. It would be one thing to worship in their way. But, when they want to quietly infringe our rights by building more and more of these places of worship and schools because they are planning to slowly take over as the main religion, I draw the line. I don't trust them.
When are you going to realize...they are american citizens?
So was son of Sam and Charles Manson, but that doesn't mean they had the best intentions toward people.
I agree with you jcribb, there's to much "taking over" that I find uncomfortable. Just sayin..........
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Marieelissa, do you even go back and read what you post? I mean really...some of it is just "out there". It doesn't make sense at all.
Before you start calling Mackenzie rude, and insulting her, go back (if you can, they're probably deleted) and recall the names you've called people, etc. You mock her Christianity because she called you on your copy/paste postings, and your unrelenting stance that she actually asked you to read what you yourself had posted? You have caught flack on other posts from doing the same thing. You say your a Christian also on numerous posts, but don't display any Christian attributes for more than 10 minutes.
Yes, I know you have problems. Maybe you should turn the computer off for a few hours a day and take a walk or something. It would do you good. You claim to be a Christian, then turn around and mock someone who actually knows what she believes. However, I believe your one very mixed up young lady who needs some very special help.
You're pissing me off!
Meaning.......what? You need to settle down and go cool off. Stop calling people retard, that's childish and juvenile.
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Quote from Mareelissa:
It is freedom of religion...do you really want to argue where they build their place of worship or whatever?
:cat: Actually, yes I do. It would be one thing to worship in their way. But, when they want to quietly infringe our rights by building more and more of these places of worship and schools because they are planning to slowly take over as the main religion, I draw the line. I don't trust them.
When are you going to realize...they are american citizens?
So was son of Sam and Charles Manson, but that doesn't mean they had the best intentions toward people.
I agree with you jcribb, there's to much "taking over" that I find uncomfortable. Just sayin..........
:cat: exactly my point!
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I have no problem with a Mosque being built.
As a New Yorker, NO WAY >>> NOT ANYWHERE NEAR GROUND ZERO!!!!!!! :angry7: :angry7: :angry7: :angry7:
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I have to apologize to the atheists and agnostics now...I am sorry, I realize it isn't just you guys, now I am getting it from "believers" :peace:
You get called out on your :bs: by anyone with a brain, be it atheist, agnostic, or "believer". Maybe you should take your own advice. It only takes so long for someone to get tired of it...I was rude, and there is no reason for rudeness, so I apologize for my rudeness. I just think you should really take a look at what you've been doing on these forums. No one takes you seriously. You claim you're a good person...prove it. We're the same age...I have apologized, and I will most likely find a need to apologize again...but it takes maturity to take responsibility for your actions. I have yet to see you do this.
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I have to apologize to the atheists and agnostics now...I am sorry, I realize it isn't just you guys, now I am getting it from "believers" :peace:
You get called out on your :bs: by anyone with a brain, be it atheist, agnostic, or "believer". Maybe you should take your own advice. It only takes so long for someone to get tired of it...I was rude, and there is no reason for rudeness, so I apologize for my rudeness. I just think you should really take a look at what you've been doing on these forums. No one takes you seriously. You claim you're a good person...prove it. We're the same age...I have apologized, and I will most likely find a need to apologize again...but it takes maturity to take responsibility for your actions. I have yet to see you do this.
Nail on the head!
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PEOPLE! STOP RESPONDING TO THE TROLL. YOU ARE FALLING FOR THE THREAD DERAILING TRAP SHE ALWAYS CAUSES. FOCUS ON THE ISSUE.
Actually, yes I do. It would be one thing to worship in their way. But, when they want to quietly infringe our rights by building more and more of these places of worship and schools because they are planning to slowly take over as the main religion, I draw the line. I don't trust them.
Couldn't you say the same about Christian(s)( extremists) though? I mean I already see churches every couple of blocks...everywhere I go. I see these people in the gov't and on the news constantly. Obviously less violent but always pushing their views into peoples lives. The only difference here is Christians have practically succeeded in doing this already. In the past atleast.
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Let's invite another attack, by all means. I mean come on it's American lives that are being lost not Muslims so it's not as big of a deal, WRONG. Use your head
Building the mosque two blocks away where it won't even be visible from the memorial is inviting another attack? Lets take a look at the responses here...
Al-Qaeda thinks that Americans are anti-Muslim...but this huge national outcry against the CULTURAL CENTER (honestly, if anyone had gone to the website, they would know this) isn't adding fuel to that fire. I guess it is okay for the entire nation to be crying out "no mosque! no mosque!" and it has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. And I guess the cabbie that was shot because he was Arab did something to ask for it. And I suppose the mosque/cultural center in Tennessee (remember that article I posted...yeah) has nothing to do with being anti-Muslim. Americans are perfectly pro-Muslim, and love every single one.
I tend to disagree...I think the more the public cries out, the more bin Laden smiles to himself thinking "they are just giving me material here. WTG, USA!" And more fuel to that anti-American fire as well. Religious tolerence...pssht...as long as their religion matches mine.
Well if Christians had brought down the towers I dang sure wouldn't supports a Christian church being built there either. It's disrespectful. You're being extremely naive if you think it won't cause problems and put people's safety in jeopardy.
You know they were not originally going to attack the towers but nuclear plants? That is what you should be afraid of! A nuclear war...the only reason Muslims didn't is because of fear it would get out of hand.
They didn't because WE HAVE THE NUKES. haha.
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It is absolutely IGNORANT for anyone to claim that Muslims don't believe people who don't believe how they believe don't deserve to be here. THAT IS PART OF THEIR RELIGION. If they are so peaceful, then where were the peaceful ones during 9/11 apologizing or taking a stand against those abusing their religion? They weren't because THEY ARE RAISED TO HATE AMERICANS. American Muslims raised here may not be bred that way, but that's how they ae bred there. THERE'S NO GETTING AROUND IT. They teach them Americans are evil like we learn the alphabet. Yes, from that early of an age. It's sad but true. I wish I remembered to save a great e-mail I got where a Muslim LEADER was speaking at an event where a few leaders of other religions were as well. The Christian one point black asked him, so our God teaches us to love those who don't follow our religion and your allah teaches you to persecute them? And he flat out answered yes. THAT IS NOT OKAY. Inviting an attack is letting Muslims do whatever the heck they want just because we don't want to step on their toes. Since they care so much about stepping on ours. If they did they wouldn't even propose the ludicrous idea to build a mosque by ground zero. Absolutely unnecessary controversy. There is NO REASON that mosque has to be built there and it's only going to stir up more crap, start more feuds, and end in another attack. BUT AS LONG AS AMERICANS ARE GETTING ATTACKED IT'S OKAY RIGHT? BECAUSE ITS NOT MUSLIMS?
WROOOOONG.
It is freedom of religion...do you really want to argue where they build their place of worship or whatever?
Actually i'm not argueing anything with you because you're mostly full of nonsense.
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I hope they do build it 8)
Oh I remember in march of 2000 being in NYC in a cop car looking for my grandmother because we got seperated and I had a thought in my head that urged me to get out of the cop car after the cops pointed out the world trade center and tell everyone that passed by that it was going to burn down...I thought I was just thinking crazy and ignored it...but damn it did burn down.
It is sorta like Final Destination without death coming to get the survivors.
So you're saying a cop told you it was going to burn down? WOW. I'm guessing you're one of those conspiracy theory people???
oh, and that post didn't make sense.
Cause you are a retard...I am psychic!! CAN YOU READ?
First of all, you called me rude THEN resorted to calling me names haha.
And good luck with your psychic abilities.
I will say a prayer for your wellbeing tonight because I feel you honestly need help.
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Would you be offended if a Pizza Hut was built there? What about a Clothes store? What about a Salon? Ok what about a Baptist, Catholic or any other church besides Muslim?
Well Pizza Hut didn't tear down the towers.
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Quote from Mareelissa:
It is freedom of religion...do you really want to argue where they build their place of worship or whatever?
:cat: Actually, yes I do. It would be one thing to worship in their way. But, when they want to quietly infringe our rights by building more and more of these places of worship and schools because they are planning to slowly take over as the main religion, I draw the line. I don't trust them.
I agree, it would be different if there weren't so many acts of violence...but either way I just feel it's EXTREMELY dsirespectful. As long as it's been, 9/11 is STILL with us and people are still hurting.
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There should be no problem with them building it there. If a person does not like it then they can go a different direction so they don't need to look at it.
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There should be no problem with them building it there. If a person does not like it then they can go a different direction so they don't need to look at it.
Um, obviously you didn't lose anybody in 9/11. It would be insensitive to build near the place where so many died at the hands of the Muslim terrorists.
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There should be no problem with them building it there. If a person does not like it then they can go a different direction so they don't need to look at it.
Um, obviously you didn't lose anybody in 9/11. It would be insensitive to build near the place where so many died at the hands of the Muslim terrorists.
But the point is the muslims that want to build it are not the terrorists. Why do you make people suffer for what others have done just because they are the same religion?
There are a lot of things going on in the Muslim world that the average American knows nothing about. Sure, there are nice Muslim Americans, and they are not part of what's going on underneath. You would think that if these Muslims wanting to put the mosque there were sensitive to the issue at hand, they would understand and not continue with putting it there in that spot.
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He had already put up a mosque in manhatten pre 9/11, maybe there is no space to build over there and they take what becomes available?
NOT
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copy/paste
Nobody cares, troll.
Haaaaaahaaaaaahaaaaa!!!!!! Thank you Falconer02, you made my come back into the lion's den uplifting & fun!!!!!! :wave:
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In america you have freedom to practice religion...get over it, a mosque is like a church or place of worship to them.
Lose the attitiude.
Until you can make a series of posts that are relevant and make sense to those reading it don't talk down to me. I've watched you repeatedly on many different threads make totally illogical statements that often don't even apply to the subject. Then you proceed to be rude and hateful to others and insult their intelligence. Half the time I feel my intelligence is insulted just corresponding with you. You said one thing then proved the opposite? Don't talk down to me because you post things on here before researching or even thinking through what you believe. You say no one can change what you believe, but you yourself are confused about it. You've claimed to be baptist. Then you claimed to not be Christian but you do believe in our God. Then you claimed to be psychic. Work on you then talk to me because I can't figure out what you're trying to say if you can't even figure it out.
I don't like you.
I couldn't care less. I think you're unstable and unsure of things, you continuously contradict yourself and waste other's time.
So
Thanks for the productive response.
SurveyMack10, Give up on this one. In another link, I suggested happy pills to help her focus but refused. There is no hope!!!! :BangHead:
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I hope they do build it 8)
Oh I remember in march of 2000 being in NYC in a cop car looking for my grandmother because we got seperated and I had a thought in my head that urged me to get out of the cop car after the cops pointed out the world trade center and tell everyone that passed by that it was going to burn down...I thought I was just thinking crazy and ignored it...but damn it did burn down.
It is sorta like Final Destination without death coming to get the survivors.
So you're saying a cop told you it was going to burn down? WOW. I'm guessing you're one of those conspiracy theory people???
oh, and that post didn't make sense.
Cause you are a retard...I am psychic!! CAN YOU READ?
More like Psychotic!!!! Your responses sound like a misbehaving child having a screaming fit. Hello, we are suppose to be adults here in this forum. If you are under age, you need to get off!!!!
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There should be no problem with them building it there. If a person does not like it then they can go a different direction so they don't need to look at it.
Um, obviously you didn't lose anybody in 9/11. It would be insensitive to build near the place where so many died at the hands of the Muslim terrorists.
But the point is the muslims that want to build it are not the terrorists. Why do you make people suffer for what others have done just because they are the same religion?
Good point, Marie. Couple that with the fact that this isn't just a mosque, but a Cultural Center. This debate has gotten circular, though.
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This is a post from a friend on facebook on this issue-
The United States of America is the only country with a constitution allowing for the free exercise of religion without giving favor to any specific one. Jerusalem Law states that " The Holy Places shall be protected from desecration and any other violation and from anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings towards those places." If the US government were to protect any religiously affiliated building, there would be an uproar, even though technically there shouldn't be. It's a double standard to say that we should have freedom of religion for Christianity and then at the same time call for the denial of rights of another religion because you're afraid or too sensitive of it.
People today seem to think that all Muslims today are terrorists and that anything to do with Islam MUST BE a terrorist plot to take down 'Merica. This is the same kind of fear mongering that led to the red scare in the 50's. Truth is the conservative view point suggests that if you believe what the founding fathers wrote in the constitution was meant to be set in stone and that there is little room for a "living translation" and individual interpretation, then why is the right wing trying to interpret the first amendment in such a way that suits them based on circumstance.
If you truly love the country you live in, you would allow for the constitutional rights of it's citizens to be upheld, if for nothing else because we live in the only country that allows people this freedom. By denying the right to build this we take away the main thing that separates the US from other countries. No other country has a law like the first amendment, and if you think that a group of citizens should be denied their rights, then you are negating the very reason we're fighting against terrorist regimes in the first place. By not letting the community center be built, you have effectively undermined the entire reason the US is fighting extremist regimes. It would literally be more beneficial to groups like Al Queada if the building of this community center is denied.
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Thank you for sharing that with us, Falconer. It has some of the same points I wanted to bring up, just one being what was said re the double standard/freedom of religion, but declined to do so. They also voiced what amyrouse first said (I think she was the first) as far as building the center being more beneficial than not building it. Again, thanks for putting it up. Sometimes it is good to see what 'everyday' people, not politicians or heads of things with vested interest, and who are not a part of FC have to say about hot topics. ;)
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Hey, no prob. You know what the funny thing about his post was? It was a response to his mom who was pulling every fear-induced argument against it that has been presented in this thread.
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Thank you for sharing that with us, Falconer. It has some of the same points I wanted to bring up, just one being what was said re the double standard/freedom of religion, but declined to do so. They also voiced what amyrouse first said (I think she was the first) as far as building the center being more beneficial than not building it. Again, thanks for putting it up. Sometimes it is good to see what 'everyday' people, not politicians or heads of things with vested interest, and who are not a part of FC have to say about hot topics. ;)
Aww...thank you, jordandog. Its a relief to know that there are people who are reading my posts... :D
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There should be no problem with them building it there. If a person does not like it then they can go a different direction so they don't need to look at it.
Um, obviously you didn't lose anybody in 9/11. It would be insensitive to build near the place where so many died at the hands of the Muslim terrorists.
But the point is the muslims that want to build it are not the terrorists. Why do you make people suffer for what others have done just because they are the same religion?
When you can intelligently answer one of my questiona about Rauf ou can claim he isn't a terrorist.
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There should be no problem with them building it there. If a person does not like it then they can go a different direction so they don't need to look at it.
Um, obviously you didn't lose anybody in 9/11. It would be insensitive to build near the place where so many died at the hands of the Muslim terrorists.
But the point is the muslims that want to build it are not the terrorists. Why do you make people suffer for what others have done just because they are the same religion?
There are a lot of things going on in the Muslim world that the average American knows nothing about. Sure, there are nice Muslim Americans, and they are not part of what's going on underneath. You would think that if these Muslims wanting to put the mosque there were sensitive to the issue at hand, they would understand and not continue with putting it there in that spot.
So well put.
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He had already put up a mosque in manhatten pre 9/11, maybe there is no space to build over there and they take what becomes available?
prove it.
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This is a post from a friend on facebook on this issue-
The United States of America is the only country with a constitution allowing for the free exercise of religion without giving favor to any specific one. Jerusalem Law states that " The Holy Places shall be protected from desecration and any other violation and from anything likely to violate the freedom of access of the members of the different religions to the places sacred to them or their feelings towards those places." If the US government were to protect any religiously affiliated building, there would be an uproar, even though technically there shouldn't be. It's a double standard to say that we should have freedom of religion for Christianity and then at the same time call for the denial of rights of another religion because you're afraid or too sensitive of it.
People today seem to think that all Muslims today are terrorists and that anything to do with Islam MUST BE a terrorist plot to take down 'Merica. This is the same kind of fear mongering that led to the red scare in the 50's. Truth is the conservative view point suggests that if you believe what the founding fathers wrote in the constitution was meant to be set in stone and that there is little room for a "living translation" and individual interpretation, then why is the right wing trying to interpret the first amendment in such a way that suits them based on circumstance.
If you truly love the country you live in, you would allow for the constitutional rights of it's citizens to be upheld, if for nothing else because we live in the only country that allows people this freedom. By denying the right to build this we take away the main thing that separates the US from other countries. No other country has a law like the first amendment, and if you think that a group of citizens should be denied their rights, then you are negating the very reason we're fighting against terrorist regimes in the first place. By not letting the community center be built, you have effectively undermined the entire reason the US is fighting extremist regimes. It would literally be more beneficial to groups like Al Queada if the building of this community center is denied.
I just feel that there should be a point where minorities have some consideration for people who are hurting...We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities, but when it comes to freedom for "regular ol' Americans" it's a bit more limited. A Muslim can stand up in the media and claim a Christian is against their religion and blah blah blah, but if a Christian did the same it would be considered prejudice. If a black man stands up in the news and says white people are being racist towards him then he win and the white man is wrong, if vice versa occurs then the black man still wins and the white man being a victim of reverse racism will be dsiregarded. When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT. It's only gonna offend the people that lost their lives or their loved ones that day, and hell a lot of them are "regular ol'" Americans anyway...
I agree with a lot that you said, I just think there should be a point where people start being thankful for their freedom and stop taking advantage of it. Obama is gonna let them do whatever they want anyway.
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I just feel that there should be a point where minorities have some consideration for people who are hurting...We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities, but when it comes to freedom for "regular ol' Americans" it's a bit more limited. A Muslim can stand up in the media and claim a Christian is against their religion and blah blah blah, but if a Christian did the same it would be considered prejudice. If a black man stands up in the news and says white people are being racist towards him then he win and the white man is wrong, if vice versa occurs then the black man still wins and the white man being a victim of reverse racism will be dsiregarded. When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT. It's only gonna offend the people that lost their lives or their loved ones that day, and hell a lot of them are "regular ol'" Americans anyway...
I agree with a lot that you said, I just think there should be a point where people start being thankful for their freedom and stop taking advantage of it. Obama is gonna let them do whatever they want anyway.
You have brought up the subject of minorities and their [seemingly] unlimited freedom several times in this thread. To say "We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities" is painting a pretty broad stroke don't you think? Can you honestly say ALWAYS and back it up because there are many times when 'minorites' have had very little freedom in as far as laws, housing, basic rights, and many other areas of life we take for granted. This is evidenced just by looking at how this country was formed and how it is TODAY also.
When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT.
What church are you talking about here?
I am working today, so I won't be back on until later tonight to see any reply.
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:cat: I agree that there should be the freedom of religion, albeit, some in these forums try to make "faith in Jesus" a myth and not acknowlege our "religion." The concern I have is that the goal of certain muslims is to slowly advance the world and take over as the main religion. These are things that have been openly printed in the papers from different countries (U.S., England, and Switzerland, incl.) They are taking advantage of our "freedom of religion" and know that because of that backing there's nothing anyone can do about it. They are also, on a steady basis, building muslim schools and teaching their way and beliefs. They should be backing the U.S. school education since they are supposedly citizens of the U.S.
These are concerns that really bother me.
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:cat: I agree that there should be the freedom of religion, albeit, some in these forums try to make "faith in Jesus" a myth and not acknowlege our "religion." The concern I have is that the goal of certain muslims is to slowly advance the world and take over as the main religion. These are things that have been openly printed in the papers from different countries (U.S., England, and Switzerland, incl.) They are taking advantage of our "freedom of religion" and know that because of that backing there's nothing anyone can do about it. They are also, on a steady basis, building muslim schools and teaching their way and beliefs. They should be backing the U.S. school education since they are supposedly citizens of the U.S.
These are concerns that really bother me.
I was really concerned with "No Child Left Behind" and with the idea of school vouchers for students to attend whatever school their parents wish. Religious and parochial schools are available to those that can pay, not government sponsored, right?
And any religion with a call to convert will do the same thing...try to spread.
This is not me saying anything negative about Christianity itself, but pointing out the arguments that will inevitably be made toward your post.
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:cat: I agree that there should be the freedom of religion, albeit, some in these forums try to make "faith in Jesus" a myth and not acknowlege our "religion." The concern I have is that the goal of certain muslims is to slowly advance the world and take over as the main religion. These are things that have been openly printed in the papers from different countries (U.S., England, and Switzerland, incl.) They are taking advantage of our "freedom of religion" and know that because of that backing there's nothing anyone can do about it. They are also, on a steady basis, building muslim schools and teaching their way and beliefs. They should be backing the U.S. school education since they are supposedly citizens of the U.S.
These are concerns that really bother me.
I was really concerned with "No Child Left Behind" and with the idea of school vouchers for students to attend whatever school their parents wish. Religious and parochial schools are available to those that can pay, not government sponsored, right?
And any religion with a call to convert will do the same thing...try to spread.
This is not me saying anything negative about Christianity itself, but pointing out the arguments that will inevitably be made toward your post.
I believe what she is pointing out, is just not the schools. They are buying up businesses and property at an alarming rate. I myself have been concerned with how much they own in California alone. Also, most property they've bought up just sits there. Most of it has increased in value, but hardly nothing is being sold for profit. Like it's waiting for something.
That surplus of oil money has made it easy for them to come over, buy and build whatever they want. Because we have free enterprise, not much is checked when large parcels of land, etc. are being bought. I know our Mexican neighbors have come over and bought land, built houses, started businesses. How come we are not concerned with them? Because they have not made terrorist threats or acts against the United States. They actually love being here, and reaping the rewards of living here.
One of the teachings of the Koran, during a Holy War (of which has already been declared), is to go into other lands, dominate, and CONVERT the inhabitants of that land to Islam. If anyone refuses, they are put to death (I've already posted this above). We are not the only country they are doing this with......check out France right now. They are trying desperately not to become a country overrun by Muslims. They are basically taking over.
I've been accused of fear mongering above. All I'm trying to do is make us all think about what we're opening up our door to, and how fast it's being pushed open. I've said this all above, so no matter how many times I say it, it doesn't matter. Americans are overcompensating for the fact that they have been made to look intolerable to other races. This is so far from the truth. However, this "racist" card is being used most effectively by the Muslim community.
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I have no problem with a Mosque being built.
As a New Yorker, NO WAY >>> NOT ANYWHERE NEAR GROUND ZERO!!!!!!! :angry7: :angry7: :angry7: :angry7:
We Are Speaking About Here & Now........Which Is "POST 9/11"
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:cat: I agree that there should be the freedom of religion, albeit, some in these forums try to make "faith in Jesus" a myth and not acknowlege our "religion." The concern I have is that the goal of certain muslims is to slowly advance the world and take over as the main religion. These are things that have been openly printed in the papers from different countries (U.S., England, and Switzerland, incl.) They are taking advantage of our "freedom of religion" and know that because of that backing there's nothing anyone can do about it. They are also, on a steady basis, building muslim schools and teaching their way and beliefs. They should be backing the U.S. school education since they are supposedly citizens of the U.S.
These are concerns that really bother me.
I was really concerned with "No Child Left Behind" and with the idea of school vouchers for students to attend whatever school their parents wish. Religious and parochial schools are available to those that can pay, not government sponsored, right?
And any religion with a call to convert will do the same thing...try to spread.
This is not me saying anything negative about Christianity itself, but pointing out the arguments that will inevitably be made toward your post.
I believe what she is pointing out, is just not the schools. They are buying up businesses and property at an alarming rate. I myself have been concerned with how much they own in California alone. Also, most property they've bought up just sits there. Most of it has increased in value, but hardly nothing is being sold for profit. Like it's waiting for something.
That surplus of oil money has made it easy for them to come over, buy and build whatever they want. Because we have free enterprise, not much is checked when large parcels of land, etc. are being bought. I know our Mexican neighbors have come over and bought land, built houses, started businesses. How come we are not concerned with them? Because they have not made terrorist threats or acts against the United States. They actually love being here, and reaping the rewards of living here.
One of the teachings of the Koran, during a Holy War (of which has already been declared), is to go into other lands, dominate, and CONVERT the inhabitants of that land to Islam. If anyone refuses, they are put to death (I've already posted this above). We are not the only country they are doing this with......check out France right now. They are trying desperately not to become a country overrun by Muslims. They are basically taking over.
I've been accused of fear mongering above. All I'm trying to do is make us all think about what we're opening up our door to, and how fast it's being pushed open. I've said this all above, so no matter how many times I say it, it doesn't matter. Americans are overcompensating for the fact that they have been made to look intolerable to other races. This is so far from the truth. However, this "racist" card is being used most effectively by the Muslim community.
Thank you, Annella. You really helped to clarify what I meant in my post.
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I have no problem with a Mosque being built.
As a New Yorker, NO WAY >>> NOT ANYWHERE NEAR GROUND ZERO!!!!!!! :angry7: :angry7: :angry7: :angry7:
We Are Speaking About Here & Now........Which Is "POST 9/11"
Thank you for standing your ground on this!!!!!!! I agree!
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If you deny them the right to build this building then freedom of religion will topple over and what's next?
Marie, would you please take the time to actually read through these posts and see what they are saying in depth? You are not making sense when you don't respond to what they are actually saying. I have really tried backing you up and giving you benefit of the doubt when a lot of people spar with you back and forth. But it aggravates me when you don't read the actual posts and respond off the wall. Thank you!!!!!!
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It is unconstitutional! I could understand if they wanted to build on Ground Zero but that is not the case.
Hm. Thought it was freedom of religion to build it wherever they wanted? That's what you said before.
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He had already put up a mosque in manhatten pre 9/11, maybe there is no space to build over there and they take what becomes available?
prove it.
In 1990 Feisal Abdul Rauf opened al-Farah Mosque in lower Manhattan. Seven years later, he established the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA), a New-York based nonprofit organization which has been run by Rauf's wife, Daisy Khan, since 2005.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2462
I meant prove there is no space.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jhx_2TqffE
Check this out re: Muslims/Obama
This just came out today.
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I just feel that there should be a point where minorities have some consideration for people who are hurting...We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities, but when it comes to freedom for "regular ol' Americans" it's a bit more limited. A Muslim can stand up in the media and claim a Christian is against their religion and blah blah blah, but if a Christian did the same it would be considered prejudice. If a black man stands up in the news and says white people are being racist towards him then he win and the white man is wrong, if vice versa occurs then the black man still wins and the white man being a victim of reverse racism will be dsiregarded. When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT. It's only gonna offend the people that lost their lives or their loved ones that day, and hell a lot of them are "regular ol'" Americans anyway...
I agree with a lot that you said, I just think there should be a point where people start being thankful for their freedom and stop taking advantage of it. Obama is gonna let them do whatever they want anyway.
You have brought up the subject of minorities and their [seemingly] unlimited freedom several times in this thread. To say "We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities" is painting a pretty broad stroke don't you think? Can you honestly say ALWAYS and back it up because there are many times when 'minorites' have had very little freedom in as far as laws, housing, basic rights, and many other areas of life we take for granted. This is evidenced just by looking at how this country was formed and how it is TODAY also.
When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT.
What church are you talking about here?
I am working today, so I won't be back on until later tonight to see any reply.
There was a Greek Orthodox church destroyed in 9/11 that wasn't allowed to be rebuilt, unless I am totally misinformed in which case I apologize.
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I just feel that there should be a point where minorities have some consideration for people who are hurting...We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities, but when it comes to freedom for "regular ol' Americans" it's a bit more limited. A Muslim can stand up in the media and claim a Christian is against their religion and blah blah blah, but if a Christian did the same it would be considered prejudice. If a black man stands up in the news and says white people are being racist towards him then he win and the white man is wrong, if vice versa occurs then the black man still wins and the white man being a victim of reverse racism will be dsiregarded. When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT. It's only gonna offend the people that lost their lives or their loved ones that day, and hell a lot of them are "regular ol'" Americans anyway...
I agree with a lot that you said, I just think there should be a point where people start being thankful for their freedom and stop taking advantage of it. Obama is gonna let them do whatever they want anyway.
You have brought up the subject of minorities and their [seemingly] unlimited freedom several times in this thread. To say "We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities" is painting a pretty broad stroke don't you think? Can you honestly say ALWAYS and back it up because there are many times when 'minorites' have had very little freedom in as far as laws, housing, basic rights, and many other areas of life we take for granted. This is evidenced just by looking at how this country was formed and how it is TODAY also.
When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT.
What church are you talking about here?
I am working today, so I won't be back on until later tonight to see any reply.
There was a Greek Orthodox church destroyed in 9/11 that wasn't allowed to be rebuilt, unless I am totally misinformed in which case I apologize.
Minorities have every opportunity that everyone does. In fact, some rules have been bent for them to get better opportunities for college entrance and jobs too. The only time minorities are not getting the same opportunities, are when they are trying to do it illegally. If you live in the US, you must be a citizen, or have citizenship papers.
If your trying to refer back to the slave trade......that's been abolished. You want Mackenzie to "prove" her stance that minorities are being treated fairly. You say they haven't in laws, housing, basic rights, etc. We have laws in place just for the minorities. Where are they being mistreated? Where don't they have the same basic rights that we do?
In other countries minorities are still being discriminated against. Turkey is a great offender. Canada, our top neighbor unfortunately has a problem with certain minorities. The US has done much, and still is doing much to make sure minorities have every opportunity, like any American.
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I just feel that there should be a point where minorities have some consideration for people who are hurting...We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities, but when it comes to freedom for "regular ol' Americans" it's a bit more limited. A Muslim can stand up in the media and claim a Christian is against their religion and blah blah blah, but if a Christian did the same it would be considered prejudice. If a black man stands up in the news and says white people are being racist towards him then he win and the white man is wrong, if vice versa occurs then the black man still wins and the white man being a victim of reverse racism will be dsiregarded. When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT. It's only gonna offend the people that lost their lives or their loved ones that day, and hell a lot of them are "regular ol'" Americans anyway...
I agree with a lot that you said, I just think there should be a point where people start being thankful for their freedom and stop taking advantage of it. Obama is gonna let them do whatever they want anyway.
You have brought up the subject of minorities and their [seemingly] unlimited freedom several times in this thread. To say "We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities" is painting a pretty broad stroke don't you think? Can you honestly say ALWAYS and back it up because there are many times when 'minorites' have had very little freedom in as far as laws, housing, basic rights, and many other areas of life we take for granted. This is evidenced just by looking at how this country was formed and how it is TODAY also.
When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT.
What church are you talking about here?
I am working today, so I won't be back on until later tonight to see any reply.
There was a Greek Orthodox church destroyed in 9/11 that wasn't allowed to be rebuilt, unless I am totally misinformed in which case I apologize.
Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church.
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I just feel that there should be a point where minorities have some consideration for people who are hurting...We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities, but when it comes to freedom for "regular ol' Americans" it's a bit more limited. A Muslim can stand up in the media and claim a Christian is against their religion and blah blah blah, but if a Christian did the same it would be considered prejudice. If a black man stands up in the news and says white people are being racist towards him then he win and the white man is wrong, if vice versa occurs then the black man still wins and the white man being a victim of reverse racism will be dsiregarded. When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT. It's only gonna offend the people that lost their lives or their loved ones that day, and hell a lot of them are "regular ol'" Americans anyway...
I agree with a lot that you said, I just think there should be a point where people start being thankful for their freedom and stop taking advantage of it. Obama is gonna let them do whatever they want anyway.
You have brought up the subject of minorities and their [seemingly] unlimited freedom several times in this thread. To say "We ALWAYS have freedom for minorities" is painting a pretty broad stroke don't you think? Can you honestly say ALWAYS and back it up because there are many times when 'minorites' have had very little freedom in as far as laws, housing, basic rights, and many other areas of life we take for granted. This is evidenced just by looking at how this country was formed and how it is TODAY also.
When a "regular ol'" church wanted to be rebuilt after 9/11 it wasn't ok, but a mosque HAVE AT IT.
What church are you talking about here?
I am working today, so I won't be back on until later tonight to see any reply.
There was a Greek Orthodox church destroyed in 9/11 that wasn't allowed to be rebuilt, unless I am totally misinformed in which case I apologize.
Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church.
I am pulling my own post from the same topic that Falconer had started, some of us replied, and then everyone basically 'switched over' to this thread about it. Here is that post with some additional info:
August 24, 2010
Some want Ground Zero church rebuilt
Supporters of a Greek Orthodox church destroyed on Sept. 11 say officials willing to speak out about a planned community center and mosque near ground zero have been silent on efforts to get the church rebuilt, the Associated Press reports.
But the World Trade Center site's owner says a deal to help rebuild St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was offered and rejected, after years of negotiations, over money and other issues.
Though the projects are not related, supporters — including George Pataki, New York's governor at the time of the Sept. 11 attacks — have questioned why public officials have not addressed St. Nicholas' future while they lead a debate on whether and where the Islamic cultural center should be built.
"What about us? Why have they forgotten or abandoned their commitment to us?" asked Father Alex Karloutsos, assistant to the archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. "When I see them raising issues about the mosque and not thinking about the church that was destroyed, it does bother us."
The section that I bolded, about the owners of the parcel of land, is referring to the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey — the agency that owns ground zero. There is also this, which is apparently being refuted by the Greek Orthodox leaders:
"The agency said the church stopped negotiating after rejecting an offer in 2008 of $20 million in financing, plus up to an additional $40 million to cover costs related to the construction of a parking lot underneath the church.
Port Authority officials said the church wanted final approval on the design of the parking lot and the potential for an additional $20 million in public money. The agency said it made a final offer in 2009 that was rejected.
"St. Nicholas Church continues to retain the right to build on its original location," the agency said in a statement Monday. It said work could begin in 2013 if the church helped finance it."
That AP release is from the Baltimore Sun and the rest of the article can be found by scrolling down.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/faith/politics/
I labored through 'Labor Day' (on less than 4 hours sleep since my last shift) and am crawling into bed right now before my head hits the keyboard, so I will be back tomorrow.
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Supporters of a Greek Orthodox church destroyed on Sept. 11 say officials willing to speak out about a planned community center and mosque near ground zero have been silent on efforts to get the church rebuilt, the Associated Press reports.
But the World Trade Center site's owner says a deal to help rebuild St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church was offered and rejected, after years of negotiations, over money and other issues.
Though the projects are not related, supporters — including George Pataki, New York's governor at the time of the Sept. 11 attacks — have questioned why public officials have not addressed St. Nicholas' future while they lead a debate on whether and where the Islamic cultural center should be built.
"What about us? Why have they forgotten or abandoned their commitment to us?" asked Father Alex Karloutsos, assistant to the archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. "When I see them raising issues about the mosque and not thinking about the church that was destroyed, it does bother us."
In an effort to deal with the furor over the planned location of the Islamic center, Gov. David Paterson has suggested that state land farther away from ground zero be used. He was scheduled to meet with New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan on Tuesday to discuss the Park51 project, which is planned for two blocks north of the 16-acre World Trade Center site.
"Rather than focus his attention on the mosque, Gov. Paterson should step in right away to ensure that the state of New York and the Port Authority uphold the agreement with the Greek Orthodox church so this project can go forward without further delay," state Sen. Dean Skelos said Monday.
Paterson declined to comment on the issue.
The 300-member congregation lost its 90-year-old parish just south of the World Trade Center when the twin towers collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, leaving only a handful of artifacts that were removed from the rubble, including a small bell and cross, a crucifix and wax candles that had not melted.
Leaders of the church and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey — the agency that owns ground zero — have spent years negotiating a deal that would let the church rebuild on land a bit farther south than the 1,200-square-foot lot it sat on, in exchange for financial help to rebuild it.
The agency said the church stopped negotiating after rejecting an offer in 2008 of $20 million in financing, plus up to an additional $40 million to cover costs related to the construction of a parking lot underneath the church.
Port Authority officials said the church wanted final approval on the design of the parking lot and the potential for an additional $20 million in public money. The agency said it made a final offer in 2009 that was rejected.
"St. Nicholas Church continues to retain the right to build on its original location," the agency said in a statement Monday. It said work could begin in 2013 if the church helped finance it.
Karloutsos, the archbishop's assistant, denied that any offer had been rejected, instead saying that Port Authority pulled the deal and has since ignored the church's attempts at dialogue. "This is about the Port Authority reneging on a promise," he said.
Pataki, who as governor promised that St. Nicholas would be rebuilt after the 2001 attacks, said Monday that the Port Authority needed to reach out to church officials.
"It's just wrong that the rebuilding of St. Nicholas Church, which was there, which was part of the master plan ... has basically been ignored," he said.
George Demos, a Long Island Republican congressional candidate seeking to unseat Rep. Tim Bishop, said he wrote President Barack Obama a letter lobbying for the church.
"All of our political leadership seems intent on assisting the mosque, at the same time they have taken no steps to make sure St. Nicholas is rebuilt," he said.
Both Demos and Pataki are opposed to building an Islamic center and mosque at a building two blocks north of the World Trade Center site. The uproar over the proposed $100 million center has become a national campaign issue and led hundreds to rally in front of ground zero over the weekend.
Critics of the project say it's an affront to the memories of the more than 2,700 people killed at ground zero on Sept. 11 to locate the center so close to the site. Proponents say accepting the center respects religious freedom and tolerance.
So I'm wondering what is what? Is it being denied or not? This article says both. I'm going to be running out of my gogo, so I'm out.
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How about we do away with the Christian Religion and stop them from putting up churches because all it does is teach people that if someone doesn't believe in "their" God they go to HELL and they are evil people.
How about because it teaches them to shun gay people and hate them and protest and BOMB abortion clinics.
They also bother people with this Devil stuff and torment young children saying the Devil is real..
DO YOU HONESTLY THINK YOUR RELIGION IS ANY BETTER?
If I were you I'd just discontinue my use of the forum. I'm not saying you don't have the right to, I'm just saying you contradict yourself constantly until you have a terrible reputation and no one wants to read anything you say. I've read other threads of you claiming to be a Christian, then you bash them haha. That's fine it's your opinion, but earlier you claimed to believe the opposite.
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Life is so screwed up because people are so screwed up...it's like whatever, I have bigger issues to worry about than some mosque... :peace:
THEN DON'T COME TO A THREAD THAT IS HERE SOLELY TO DISCUSS THE BUILDING OF A MOSQUE.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jhx_2TqffE
Check this out re: Muslims/Obama
This just came out today.
Absolutely terrifying. Great post thanks for sharing!
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To my Christian friends....do you know that the word "Islam" means peace and safety? If you know your Word, you will make the connection.
That is not correct, but is a common mistake. The word Salam is a noun and means peace. Islam is an Arabic verb, not a noun, and means submission, surrendering, and obeying in order to achieve Salam or 'peace'.
The words/meanings seem so contradictory. When I see women raised to submit to the men. (cover up from head toe)I don't see that as peace more like mastery over the weaker sex. The male counter parts are allowed to go out whoring but if a woman get's raped; She is blamed & shot to death by her own family member. They call it honor killings. You don't hear about the rapist being put to justice. The Brother that shot his sister to death get's a few days in prison. So, the only people in Islam that are really submitting,surrendering, obeying in order to achieve Salam/peace are the women. Women=Islam=Salam=RIP. We *bleep* about r problems here in the US but I thank my lucky stars that I am an American. Sorry, I needed to vent. :peace:
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To my Christian friends....do you know that the word "Islam" means peace and safety? If you know your Word, you will make the connection.
That is not correct, but is a common mistake. The word Salam is a noun and means peace. Islam is an Arabic verb, not a noun, and means submission, surrendering, and obeying in order to achieve Salam or 'peace'.
The words/meanings seem so contradictory. When I see women raised to submit to the men. (cover up from head toe)I don't see that as peace more like mastery over the weaker sex. The male counter parts are allowed to go out whoring but if a woman get's raped; She is blamed & shot to death by her own family member. They call it honor killings. You don't hear about the rapist being put to justice. The Brother that shot his sister to death get's a few days in prison. So, the only people in Islam that are really submitting,surrendering, obeying in order to achieve Salam/peace are the women. Women=Islam=Salam=RIP. We *bleep* about r problems here in the US but I thank my lucky stars that I am an American. Sorry, I needed to vent. :peace:
So true.
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I hope they do build it 8)
Oh I remember in march of 2000 being in NYC in a cop car looking for my grandmother because we got seperated and I had a thought in my head that urged me to get out of the cop car after the cops pointed out the world trade center and tell everyone that passed by that it was going to burn down...I thought I was just thinking crazy and ignored it...but damn it did burn down.
It is sorta like Final Destination without death coming to get the survivors.
So you're saying a cop told you it was going to burn down? WOW. I'm guessing you're one of those conspiracy theory people???
oh, and that post didn't make sense.
Cause you are a retard...I am psychic!! CAN YOU READ?
More like Psychotic!!!! Your responses sound like a misbehaving child having a screaming fit. Hello, we are suppose to be adults here in this forum. If you are under age, you need to get off!!!!
No, 13 years old can be on here. Not everyone has to be an adult.
I don't think so. 13 is not old enough to reason with difficult adult subjects such as what this forum is about. You can't even do surveys unless you are 18yrs old. Check out the rules please. You are barely a preteen & too young to discuss these types of issues. Don't try to grow up so fast. Youth will gone fast enough. Just enjoy being a kid.
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http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/rudizenon/muslim_women_women_09.jpg
Why even bother............
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@tantricia44:
I don't think so. 13 is not old enough to reason with difficult adult subjects such as what this forum is about. You can't even do surveys unless you are 18yrs old. Check out the rules please. You are barely a preteen & too young to discuss these types of issues. Don't try to grow up so fast. Youth will gone fast enough. Just enjoy being a kid.
Maybe I misunderstood this and you were not talking to marieelissa about HER age, but she is 28 years old, not 13. If you were just reiterating the TOS, my bad, but it sounds as if you think SHE is that young.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jhx_2TqffE
Check this out re: Muslims/Obama
This just came out today.
I am surprised that anyone would buy into this right wing propaganda. I watched the video and heard names I am familiar with, especially that of Ahmed Aboul Gheit, the Egyptian Foreign Minister. He makes NO effort whatsoever, and never has, to hide his absolute and unrelenting hatred of the Jewish State of Israel and the Jewish people. While Obama DID meet with him in January of 2009, there is absolutely no confirmation that the words supposedly heard on Nile TV were in fact said. I have stated before I am NOT a supporter of Obama, but when things like this video start riling up the masses again someone has to speak up about it.
PP Simmons, the video 'host' has tons of videos out there and no one knows who it actually is, but their agenda is quite clear. The only purpose behind their videos is to further political conspiracy theory on just about every person and subject imagineable. They also make blatant use of mixing sound bites, photoshopping things, and basically preying on the feelings of strongly aligned christian groups.
Does it not occur to anyone that there is a reason these stories do NOT appear anywhere else ie in major news groups publications and TV broadcasts? There are many purveyors of the news that detest Obama and would do anything they could to show some really great 'dirt' on him. Yet, they do not pick up these types of stories and put them out for all to see? Seems pretty strange to me.
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They are sure taking their time rebuilding the 9/11 site.
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He had already put up a mosque in manhatten pre 9/11, maybe there is no space to build over there and they take what becomes available?
Actually the state of NY offered them another location on state owned land and they rejected the offer because they want it in that spot. This sparks the question why? why must it be in that very spot? After what happened on 9/11 I think building this "Cultural Center" in this location is very insensitive to those that lost loved ones its not "just a building". In my opinion this has never been about religion or rights its about control and one group using our constitution to get what they want despite if its morally right or wrong. I find it interesting that there are Muslims that are against the building of the "Cultural Center" but non-Muslim's that are for it are crying hate and prejudice when people feel it should not be built. Are the Muslims that are against it being built prejudice as well? Or just anyone that's not of the Muslim faith? My point is hate is a vicious cycle and sadly there will probably always be hate and prejudice in our world. But allowing construction of said building in that general area will only fuel the fire of hatred and pour salt in the healing wounds of those that lost loved ones on that horrible day.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jhx_2TqffE
Check this out re: Muslims/Obama
This just came out today.
I am surprised that anyone would buy into this right wing propaganda. I watched the video and heard names I am familiar with, especially that of Ahmed Aboul Gheit, the Egyptian Foreign Minister. He makes NO effort whatsoever, and never has, to hide his absolute and unrelenting hatred of the Jewish State of Israel and the Jewish people. While Obama DID meet with him in January of 2009, there is absolutely no confirmation that the words supposedly heard on Nile TV were in fact said. I have stated before I am NOT a supporter of Obama, but when things like this video start riling up the masses again someone has to speak up about it.
PP Simmons, the video 'host' has tons of videos out there and no one knows who it actually is, but their agenda is quite clear. The only purpose behind their videos is to further political conspiracy theory on just about every person and subject imagineable. They also make blatant use of mixing sound bites, photoshopping things, and basically preying on the feelings of strongly aligned christian groups.
Does it not occur to anyone that there is a reason these stories do NOT appear anywhere else ie in major news groups publications and TV broadcasts? There are many purveyors of the news that detest Obama and would do anything they could to show some really great 'dirt' on him. Yet, they do not pick up these types of stories and put them out for all to see? Seems pretty strange to me.
Most of the media is so behind Obama, they refuse to show anything wrong with him, that's why. That's what is also strange. If it was Bush, or anyone else like Bush, they would be digging up the dirt and putting it out there. I'm just seeing the overall picture of what's unfolding for the future of the U.S., and it's a shame that many people can't see that. This is truly a serious situation.
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He had already put up a mosque in manhatten pre 9/11, maybe there is no space to build over there and they take what becomes available?
Actually the state of NY offered them another location on state owned land and they rejected the offer because they want it in that spot. This sparks the question why? why must it be in that very spot? After what happened on 9/11 I think building this "Cultural Center" in this location is very insensitive to those that lost loved ones its not "just a building". In my opinion this has never been about religion or rights its about control and one group using our constitution to get what they want despite if its morally right or wrong. I find it interesting that there are Muslims that are against the building of the "Cultural Center" but non-Muslim's that are for it are crying hate and prejudice when people feel it should not be built. Are the Muslims that are against it being built prejudice as well? Or just anyone that's not of the Muslim faith? My point is hate is a vicious cycle and sadly there will probably always be hate and prejudice in our world. But allowing construction of said building in that general area will only fuel the fire of hatred and pour salt in the healing wounds of those that lost loved ones on that horrible day.
It is just a Freedom of religion for American Citizens, if they want to make a national religion then they should, until then, muslims have every right to have mosques built, wherever they want.
This isn't about being insensitive...it is about what is in the first amendment...sure some people will take advantage of their rights, who doesn't? I don't see why religious people even care! Don't you believe your loved ones went to heaven?
Marie, once again, please take the time to read what she is actually writing about. Yes, there is the freedom, but no, not to take advantage and try to take over behind the scenes.
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He had already put up a mosque in manhatten pre 9/11, maybe there is no space to build over there and they take what becomes available?
Actually the state of NY offered them another location on state owned land and they rejected the offer because they want it in that spot. This sparks the question why? why must it be in that very spot? After what happened on 9/11 I think building this "Cultural Center" in this location is very insensitive to those that lost loved ones its not "just a building". In my opinion this has never been about religion or rights its about control and one group using our constitution to get what they want despite if its morally right or wrong. I find it interesting that there are Muslims that are against the building of the "Cultural Center" but non-Muslim's that are for it are crying hate and prejudice when people feel it should not be built. Are the Muslims that are against it being built prejudice as well? Or just anyone that's not of the Muslim faith? My point is hate is a vicious cycle and sadly there will probably always be hate and prejudice in our world. But allowing construction of said building in that general area will only fuel the fire of hatred and pour salt in the healing wounds of those that lost loved ones on that horrible day.
It is just a Freedom of religion for American Citizens, if they want to make a national religion then they should, until then, muslims have every right to have mosques built, wherever they want.
This isn't about being insensitive...it is about what is in the first amendment...sure some people will take advantage of their rights, who doesn't? I don't see why religious people even care! Don't you believe your loved ones went to heaven?
You obviously again failed to read what I was saying or you just don't care that others have different opinions than yourself. I clearly stated I think its insensitive as do many others religious and the non religious even Muslims. Do the people that feel this way believe the innocent people that lost their lives went to heaven? That would depend on what each individual believes in. Have you ever even read the constitution before you go spouting off what it entails? I know I have and never have I seen the words the right to have "buildings built" Its just a building remember? those were your own words if its just a building then it should have been OK to respect those that died and moved the location elsewhere when they were offered the option. When are you going to realize its not just a building and there is a reason it must be built there? Call me a conspiracy theorist if you like it wont bother me in the least. I don't necessarily believe this but I prefer to not be naive when it comes to anyone's motives. In other words I question the motives for needing this Cultural center in that exact spot. It also puzzles me why any minority would want so badly to stir the pot of hatred rather than just try to get along with the majority and live peacefully.
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Most of the media is so behind Obama, they refuse to show anything wrong with him, that's why. That's what is also strange. If it was Bush, or anyone else like Bush, they would be digging up the dirt and putting it out there. I'm just seeing the overall picture of what's unfolding for the future of the U.S., and it's a shame that many people can't see that. This is truly a serious situation.
I've seen plenty of dirt on Obama in the media. Especially after the oil spill. And it's not limited to Fox News either! Who would have known!?
Oh and Alyia72-- don't respond to Marie. She's the forum troll. I'm trying to save you a headache; don't waste your time like most of us have with her. She's crazy and not worth it.
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Most of the media is so behind Obama, they refuse to show anything wrong with him, that's why. That's what is also strange. If it was Bush, or anyone else like Bush, they would be digging up the dirt and putting it out there. I'm just seeing the overall picture of what's unfolding for the future of the U.S., and it's a shame that many people can't see that. This is truly a serious situation.
I've seen plenty of dirt on Obama in the media. Especially after the oil spill. And it's not limited to Fox News either! Who would have known!?
Oh and Alyia72-- don't respond to Marie. She's the forum troll. I'm trying to save you a headache-- don't waste your time like most of us have with her. She's crazy not worth it.
I gathered as much when she said she cheered on 9/11 which irritates me just to retype it. Its obvious discussion with her was going nowhere and until she can contribute to an intelligent discussion or even accept that others have different views on subjects I don't plan to discuss it any further. We are all entitled to our opinions and I have no hard feelings that she obviously either disagrees or doesn't want to see the whole picture as others may see it. The same goes for anyone else that may disagree on any given subject, everyone has different morals and beliefs the trick to debating is to be able to accept that and move on.
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He had already put up a mosque in manhatten pre 9/11, maybe there is no space to build over there and they take what becomes available?
Actually the state of NY offered them another location on state owned land and they rejected the offer because they want it in that spot. This sparks the question why? why must it be in that very spot? After what happened on 9/11 I think building this "Cultural Center" in this location is very insensitive to those that lost loved ones its not "just a building". In my opinion this has never been about religion or rights its about control and one group using our constitution to get what they want despite if its morally right or wrong. I find it interesting that there are Muslims that are against the building of the "Cultural Center" but non-Muslim's that are for it are crying hate and prejudice when people feel it should not be built. Are the Muslims that are against it being built prejudice as well? Or just anyone that's not of the Muslim faith? My point is hate is a vicious cycle and sadly there will probably always be hate and prejudice in our world. But allowing construction of said building in that general area will only fuel the fire of hatred and pour salt in the healing wounds of those that lost loved ones on that horrible day.
It is just a Freedom of religion for American Citizens, if they want to make a national religion then they should, until then, muslims have every right to have mosques built, wherever they want.
This isn't about being insensitive...it is about what is in the first amendment...sure some people will take advantage of their rights, who doesn't? I don't see why religious people even care! Don't you believe your loved ones went to heaven?
you totally disregarded everything she said
She clearly stated IT'S NOT ABOUT RELIGION...there are muslims that are against it as well...
and what does her loved ones going to heaven have to do with ANYTHING
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If I were you I'd just discontinue my use of the forum. I'm not saying you don't have the right to, I'm just saying you contradict yourself constantly until you have a terrible reputation and no one wants to read anything you say. I've read other threads of you claiming to be a Christian, then you bash them haha. That's fine it's your opinion, but earlier you claimed to believe the opposite.
I can argue both sides, I can see both sides of an issue, I would make an excellent Lawyer.
Actually lawyers are highly intelligent, so I don't think so.
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Life is so screwed up because people are so screwed up...it's like whatever, I have bigger issues to worry about than some mosque... :peace:
THEN DON'T COME TO A THREAD THAT IS HERE SOLELY TO DISCUSS THE BUILDING OF A MOSQUE.
Oh I can talk about it but outside the forum I could care less.
If you don't care about it quit wasting your time, and more importantly ours.
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Most of the media is so behind Obama, they refuse to show anything wrong with him, that's why. That's what is also strange. If it was Bush, or anyone else like Bush, they would be digging up the dirt and putting it out there. I'm just seeing the overall picture of what's unfolding for the future of the U.S., and it's a shame that many people can't see that. This is truly a serious situation.
I've seen plenty of dirt on Obama in the media. Especially after the oil spill. And it's not limited to Fox News either! Who would have known!?
Oh and Alyia72-- don't respond to Marie. She's the forum troll. I'm trying to save you a headache-- don't waste your time like most of us have with her. She's crazy not worth it.
I gathered as much when she said she cheered on 9/11 which irritates me just to retype it. Its obvious discussion with her was going nowhere and until she can contribute to an intelligent discussion or even accept that others have different views on subjects I don't plan to discuss it any further. We are all entitled to our opinions and I have no hard feelings that she obviously either disagrees or doesn't want to see the whole picture as others may see it. The same goes for anyone else that may disagree on any given subject, everyone has different morals and beliefs the trick to debating is to be able to accept that and move on.
I agree- It's not even frustrating that she disagrees. It is however frustrating that she disagrees half the time then will quickly change and claim to support the other time...not only does she not read what others say before she responds but I don't even think she thinks her response through. What's worse is I waste my time responding haha.
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Most of the media is so behind Obama, they refuse to show anything wrong with him, that's why. That's what is also strange. If it was Bush, or anyone else like Bush, they would be digging up the dirt and putting it out there. I'm just seeing the overall picture of what's unfolding for the future of the U.S., and it's a shame that many people can't see that. This is truly a serious situation.
I've seen plenty of dirt on Obama in the media. Especially after the oil spill. And it's not limited to Fox News either! Who would have known!?
Falconer, you know, you are absolutely right. Maybe the media has begun to wake up a bit about him. It's supposed to be news fairly, anyway, isn't it? Thank you for making me delve more into this!. :thumbsup:
P.S. I just noticed you've reached your 1000th post and beyond!! That's super!
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Most of the media is so behind Obama, they refuse to show anything wrong with him, that's why. That's what is also strange. If it was Bush, or anyone else like Bush, they would be digging up the dirt and putting it out there. I'm just seeing the overall picture of what's unfolding for the future of the U.S., and it's a shame that many people can't see that. This is truly a serious situation.
I've seen plenty of dirt on Obama in the media. Especially after the oil spill. And it's not limited to Fox News either! Who would have known!?
Falconer, you know, you are absolutely right. Maybe the media has begun to wake up a bit about him. It's supposed to be news fairly, anyway, isn't it? Thank you for making me delve more into this!. :thumbsup:
P.S. I just noticed you've reached your 1000th post and beyond!! That's super!
It's about time they wake up and expose him unamerican ideals for what they are, unamerican, and quit tiptoeing around him just because him becoming president is controversial.
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If I were you I'd just discontinue my use of the forum. I'm not saying you don't have the right to, I'm just saying you contradict yourself constantly until you have a terrible reputation and no one wants to read anything you say. I've read other threads of you claiming to be a Christian, then you bash them haha. That's fine it's your opinion, but earlier you claimed to believe the opposite.
I can argue both sides, I can see both sides of an issue, I would make an excellent Lawyer.
Actually lawyers are highly intelligent, so I don't think so.
I was trying to think of something equally as mean to say back but I will turn the other cheek...
Cool.
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There are some bad christians on this forum...they make God look bad!!! :angel12:
wow. you honestly have zero reputation on this forum because of posts like these. that was judgement in itself, at least others on this forum don't try to claim to be anything but human while you hold yourself above us with your psychic abilities.
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I don't care, you are rude and uncouth along with some others!! I am human but I am pyschic but that doesn't make me better than anyone, of course I will hold myself higher than all other people. I would never talk down to myself or say mean things to myself.
Shutup, troll. Go back to Professor X or something.
wow. you honestly have zero reputation on this forum because of posts like these. that was judgement in itself, at least others on this forum don't try to claim to be anything but human while you hold yourself above us with your psychic abilities.
Hey Survey-- Like I told Alyia earlier, don't bother arguing with this village idiot. She derails threads with unnecessary drama. Your best bet is to just hit "ignore" under her name like I just did and don't take that off. You have no idea how many people I've told this to in the past. I'm just trying to save you a headache.
Falconer, you know, you are absolutely right. Maybe the media has begun to wake up a bit about him. It's supposed to be news fairly, anyway, isn't it? Thank you for making me delve more into this!. P.S. I just noticed you've reached your 1000th post and beyond!! That's super!
Hey thanks for pointing that out, man! I didn't even notice! And yeah, Obama is getting negative publicity and his approval rating is slowly going down. I don't agree with him on many things, but from what I've heard, he wants to actually start pulling out of the middle east very soon so I predict his rating will go up a bit. If this is true, I imagine this will happen around election time ::) But, as Teddy Roosevelt said, it's completely american to criticize you president; standing by without questioning is treasonous.
...And my innernats is down so I can't post much for a while.
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It's about time they wake up and expose him unamerican ideals for what they are, unamerican, and quit tiptoeing around him just because him becoming president is controversial.
Ehh...I can kind of agree with you here. A lot of people voted for him for superficial reasons. But if you're referring to things such as healthcare reform as being unamerican, my hands are tied. A lot of people point to it being socialist, which I can see, but something really needed to be done about it. I've learned this from experience (700$ to talk to a doctor for 5 minutes? wtf!?). Desperate times call for desperate measures! I really hope this isn't a permanent thing for this country; I think the smart approach would to have it take full effect, which in turn will force the insurance companies to lower their prices and customer-background standards, and then slowly remove the reform once there's good competition between those companies. Of course this is just speculation but hey, it could work.
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Wow this was a very informative and insightful post. Thanks for posting ~ I would have to agree that the world is taking a terrible turn. :sad1:
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This project is being moved to another location after a Florida Pastor threatened to burn Korans on 9/11.
No, that is not correct. This is from one hour ago:
The Guardian2010-09-09
ANTONIO GONZALEZ Associated Press Writer= GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — A Florida imam says that no deal has been reached to move the site of a mosque at the site of ground zero in exchange for a Florida minister to call off plans to burn Qurans. Imam Muhammad Musri tells The Associated Press that what he offered was a meeting among the Rev. Terry Jones, the New York imam planning the Islamic center and himself to talk about the mosque location. Musri is president of the Islamic Society of Central Florida. He says he told Jones that he does not believe the mosque should not be there and would do everything in his power to make sure it is moved
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I don't think so. 13 is not old enough to reason with difficult adult subjects such as what this forum is about. You can't even do surveys unless you are 18yrs old. Check out the rules please. You are barely a preteen & too young to discuss these types of issues. Don't try to grow up so fast. Youth will gone fast enough. Just enjoy being a kid.
Maybe you should read the terms of service :P
i.Users must be 18 years or older OR 13 years or older with parental permission. A user under 18 certifies that a parent has given permission by registering and agreeing to these terms.
http://www.fusioncash.net/tos.php
How do we know that you actually got adult permission? Anyway, I still think you're too young for this link.
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@tantricia44:
I don't think so. 13 is not old enough to reason with difficult adult subjects such as what this forum is about. You can't even do surveys unless you are 18yrs old. Check out the rules please. You are barely a preteen & too young to discuss these types of issues. Don't try to grow up so fast. Youth will gone fast enough. Just enjoy being a kid.
Maybe I misunderstood this and you were not talking to marieelissa about HER age, but she is 28 years old, not 13. If you were just reiterating the TOS, my bad, but it sounds as if you think SHE is that young.
It doesn't matter how old she is. She has a mind of child. Look at her what she says. I feel like, I'm conversing with my 5year old niece!
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Most of the media is so behind Obama, they refuse to show anything wrong with him, that's why. That's what is also strange. If it was Bush, or anyone else like Bush, they would be digging up the dirt and putting it out there. I'm just seeing the overall picture of what's unfolding for the future of the U.S., and it's a shame that many people can't see that. This is truly a serious situation.
I've seen plenty of dirt on Obama in the media. Especially after the oil spill. And it's not limited to Fox News either! Who would have known!?
Oh and Alyia72-- don't respond to Marie. She's the forum troll. I'm trying to save you a headache; don't waste your time like most of us have with her. She's crazy and not worth it.
I agree with falconer02. She has a mental age of a 13 year old. Not mature yet for such serious discussions.
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It's about time they wake up and expose him unamerican ideals for what they are, unamerican, and quit tiptoeing around him just because him becoming president is controversial.
Ehh...I can kind of agree with you here. A lot of people voted for him for superficial reasons. But if you're referring to things such as healthcare reform as being unamerican, my hands are tied. A lot of people point to it being socialist, which I can see, but something really needed to be done about it. I've learned this from experience (700$ to talk to a doctor for 5 minutes? wtf!?). Desperate times call for desperate measures! I really hope this isn't a permanent thing for this country; I think the smart approach would to have it take full effect, which in turn will force the insurance companies to lower their prices and customer-background standards, and then slowly remove the reform once there's good competition between those companies. Of course this is just speculation but hey, it could work.
How is Obama unamerican?Whether or not you voted for him,nobody can turn around what others have done to america decades & decades ago in a year or2. What r you talking about tip toeing around him? The media has been dumping on him since he became president! Everyone has negative opinions on what he's doing but everytime he try's to fix something, everyone &/or republicans are bitching about it! What do you want from him? It seems like he has to be better than all the other president's be4 him. Why, b/c he's nether black nor white? Why does he have to be perfect when all others had dark secrets in their closets during their presidency? If your bitching about what he has or has not done shut up because I don't see you contributing in the solutions. We are just a bunch of spoiled brat Americans that r crying b/c Daddy didn't get us what we wanted yet. Quit belly aching,get off your asses & support your president. Even if you didn't vote for he, he is still your president. :peace:
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There are some bad christians on this forum...they make God look bad!!! :angel12:
wow. you honestly have zero reputation on this forum because of posts like these. that was judgement in itself, at least others on this forum don't try to claim to be anything but human while you hold yourself above us with your psychic abilities.
I don't care, you are rude and uncouth along with some others!! I am human but I am pyschic but that doesn't make me better than anyone, of course I will hold myself higher than all other people. I would never talk down to myself or say mean things to myself.
Does it take a psychic to realize that you just contradicted yourself? "that doesn't make me better than anyone...of course I hold myself higher than all other people" Read through what you say before you post it, it'll save you a lotta embarrassment.
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It's about time they wake up and expose him unamerican ideals for what they are, unamerican, and quit tiptoeing around him just because him becoming president is controversial.
Ehh...I can kind of agree with you here. A lot of people voted for him for superficial reasons. But if you're referring to things such as healthcare reform as being unamerican, my hands are tied. A lot of people point to it being socialist, which I can see, but something really needed to be done about it. I've learned this from experience (700$ to talk to a doctor for 5 minutes? wtf!?). Desperate times call for desperate measures! I really hope this isn't a permanent thing for this country; I think the smart approach would to have it take full effect, which in turn will force the insurance companies to lower their prices and customer-background standards, and then slowly remove the reform once there's good competition between those companies. Of course this is just speculation but hey, it could work.
I'm not saying there didn't need to be a change...but his idea is a socialist one. Also, IDK why we would model our healthcare reform after plans of countries that come HERE because theirs doesn't work...
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It's about time they wake up and expose him unamerican ideals for what they are, unamerican, and quit tiptoeing around him just because him becoming president is controversial.
Ehh...I can kind of agree with you here. A lot of people voted for him for superficial reasons. But if you're referring to things such as healthcare reform as being unamerican, my hands are tied. A lot of people point to it being socialist, which I can see, but something really needed to be done about it. I've learned this from experience (700$ to talk to a doctor for 5 minutes? wtf!?). Desperate times call for desperate measures! I really hope this isn't a permanent thing for this country; I think the smart approach would to have it take full effect, which in turn will force the insurance companies to lower their prices and customer-background standards, and then slowly remove the reform once there's good competition between those companies. Of course this is just speculation but hey, it could work.
How is Obama unamerican?Whether or not you voted for him,nobody can turn around what others have done to america decades & decades ago in a year or2. What r you talking about tip toeing around him? The media has been dumping on him since he became president! Everyone has negative opinions on what he's doing but everytime he try's to fix something, everyone &/or republicans are bitching about it! What do you want from him? It seems like he has to be better than all the other president's be4 him. Why, b/c he's nether black nor white? Why does he have to be perfect when all others had dark secrets in their closets during their presidency? If your bitching about what he has or has not done shut up because I don't see you contributing in the solutions. We are just a bunch of spoiled brat Americans that r crying b/c Daddy didn't get us what we wanted yet. Quit belly aching,get off your asses & support your president. Even if you didn't vote for he, he is still your president. :peace:
1st of all, lose the attitude. If you don't like my opinion you can address it in an adult manner.
2nd of all, I don't support almost all of his policies. I couldn't care less what race he is. In fact, he's not even fully black. People just make a big deal about it because he appears to be fully black. Don't try and make my come off as being shallow in my political beliefs when that is certainly not the case.
3rd, if Bush or any other President hadn't produced a birth certificate, had terrorist ties, or even had a fraction of the shady past Obama does it would be ALL OVER the news. The media hated on Bush so much, but Obama comes into office while we are in trillions of dollars of debt(not his fault) and begins SPENDING MORE MONEY. I disagree with that.
4th, many of his policies reflect socialism. Redistribution of wealth, he supports it. That is absurd and ABSOLUTELY unamerican. I don't think the government should be bailing out so many businesses either, because once they give money(that we don't have) to those businesses they get a say in how the business is ran(money is power), and that is another aspect of socialism.
5th, I never said he had to be perfect, I simply don't agree with him. I guess since I don't agree with you I should "shut up" though right? nice tough with the shut up by the way, really made you seem to have a valid point to make (sarcasm)
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It's about time they wake up and expose him unamerican ideals for what they are, unamerican, and quit tiptoeing around him just because him becoming president is controversial.
Ehh...I can kind of agree with you here. A lot of people voted for him for superficial reasons. But if you're referring to things such as healthcare reform as being unamerican, my hands are tied. A lot of people point to it being socialist, which I can see, but something really needed to be done about it. I've learned this from experience (700$ to talk to a doctor for 5 minutes? wtf!?). Desperate times call for desperate measures! I really hope this isn't a permanent thing for this country; I think the smart approach would to have it take full effect, which in turn will force the insurance companies to lower their prices and customer-background standards, and then slowly remove the reform once there's good competition between those companies. Of course this is just speculation but hey, it could work.
How is Obama unamerican?Whether or not you voted for him,nobody can turn around what others have done to america decades & decades ago in a year or2. What r you talking about tip toeing around him? The media has been dumping on him since he became president! Everyone has negative opinions on what he's doing but everytime he try's to fix something, everyone &/or republicans are bitching about it! What do you want from him? It seems like he has to be better than all the other president's be4 him. Why, b/c he's nether black nor white? Why does he have to be perfect when all others had dark secrets in their closets during their presidency? If your bitching about what he has or has not done shut up because I don't see you contributing in the solutions. We are just a bunch of spoiled brat Americans that r crying b/c Daddy didn't get us what we wanted yet. Quit belly aching,get off your asses & support your president. Even if you didn't vote for he, he is still your president. :peace:
1st of all, lose the attitude. If you don't like my opinion you can address it in an adult manner.
2nd of all, I don't support almost all of his policies. I couldn't care less what race he is. In fact, he's not even fully black. People just make a big deal about it because he appears to be fully black. Don't try and make my come off as being shallow in my political beliefs when that is certainly not the case.
3rd, if Bush or any other President hadn't produced a birth certificate, had terrorist ties, or even had a fraction of the shady past Obama does it would be ALL OVER the news. The media hated on Bush so much, but Obama comes into office while we are in trillions of dollars of debt(not his fault) and begins SPENDING MORE MONEY. I disagree with that.
4th, many of his policies reflect socialism. Redistribution of wealth, he supports it. That is absurd and ABSOLUTELY unamerican. I don't think the government should be bailing out so many businesses either, because once they give money(that we don't have) to those businesses they get a say in how the business is ran(money is power), and that is another aspect of socialism.
5th, I never said he had to be perfect, I simply don't agree with him. I guess since I don't agree with you I should "shut up" though right? nice tough with the shut up by the way, really made you seem to have a valid point to make (sarcasm)
1. What do you care about my attitude? You don't know me & that's the way I express myself. 2. If you are not seeing both sides of the coin, then yes your politics is shallow. 3. enlighten me, what shady past does obama have? Look into your history books at all the crooked things past presidents had gotten away with & obama would look like an angelic alter boy. 4. America was looking so good economically until Bush#2 came into office. Bush is part of the reason why we are in that trillion dollar debt. He took us into a war that we didn't need to be in & obama is just sweeping up the mess. Bush Allowed tax breaks to his rich friends & supporters. Obama had to spend more money to a) get the wall street back in the black & b) continue to fund a war that he didn't agree with in the first place. c) Also, had to use monies for other issues like the oil spill. I understand that you don't want wall street to get any monies to save the banks but you don't understand that if they all went out, everything would have been frozen. Money makes the world go round & we would have been in a depression! Obama may be the president but he has to deal with other states of government that usually block all of his ideas. A lot of the stuff he had done was not because he wanted it, it because of the agreement from all state of government. In short, he's had to compromise what he really wanted to happen & thus it always seem to come out short. 5. You've got to be totally nuts if you're saying obama is a socialist. He is totally opposite to that description. Again, one of his policies was to cut the tax breaks to the rich & give the middle class & the poor a change. The problem is that Obama has Republicans opposing every effort for this change. The republicans don't want change they just want to gain more seats in the house so that they can take over again. But remember every time a republican takes office the economy crashes due to their greed to be richer & keep the middle class & poor in the bottom. Take a look in your history & you'll see the the cyclic up & down cycles of the economy & I bet you that When a republican is in the white house the economy is in shits-ville. Usually destroying the good economy the previous president had up held. 6. No, to me it seems like they expect more from him than any of the other presidents before him. Like he has to be perfect to be accepted & I don't think it's right or fair. 7. I wasn't directly speaking to you alone to shut up! I was referring to all that want to *bleep* about what the president is doing or not doing but sit & do nothing to help solve problems. 8. This issue is not black & white & straight forward. There are a lot of gray areas & that's what makes it difficult for the president to get what policies you want to come true. His hands are usually tied due to disagreements between houses. If he had his way, we wouldn't call him president, we'd call him king & we would get what we want w/no barriers. Oh ya, if you're getting your news from Fox, I urge you to stop. That's the brainwashing station!!!!
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I don't think so. 13 is not old enough to reason with difficult adult subjects such as what this forum is about. You can't even do surveys unless you are 18yrs old. Check out the rules please. You are barely a preteen & too young to discuss these types of issues. Don't try to grow up so fast. Youth will gone fast enough. Just enjoy being a kid.
Maybe you should read the terms of service :P
i.Users must be 18 years or older OR 13 years or older with parental permission. A user under 18 certifies that a parent has given permission by registering and agreeing to these terms.
http://www.fusioncash.net/tos.php
How do we know that you actually got adult permission? Anyway, I still think you're too young for this link.
I don't give a what about what you think...How do you know I didn't get adult permission? Get back to your room until you can play nice.
Elttil lrig eht lived si retfa uoy!!!!
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Heyyyy now let's all play nice! This is just an argument after all. No need to get too personal!
I'm not saying there didn't need to be a change...but his idea is a socialist one. Also, IDK why we would model our healthcare reform after plans of countries that come HERE because theirs doesn't work...
I agree that it is socialist in nature but I wouldn't label him as all-out socialist just because of one contraversial issue. And yeah! I admit that this plan could damage us even more! The only thing I'm saying is that something needed to be done, and given that the republicans idea to give every person a 5,000$ deductable would be pointless in my eyes because just talking to a doctor for less than 5 minutes at an ER costs over 700$. Imagine what a surgery would cost for an uninsured person. Not to get too personal, but this is a major reason I haven't had surgery on my shoulder because I dislocated it and shredded the cartalidge ring.
As far as other countries healthcare goes, which ones are you referring to? I would speculate that a majority of uninsured people order their meds from Canada since they're a lot cheaper. Im on a small dosage of lamictal and it costs OVER 500$ for a 2 months supply from any pharmacy around me. If I order it from Canada, it's between 1-200$. So all that I'm saying is that our current system is completely broken. I'm curious of your own insight though-- if there is a better plan, what do you think it would be? What do you think that would work? I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything; I don't know of any other viable plan myself.
How is Obama unamerican?
Pretty much because of my first sentence responding to Macks post.
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Just because he is our president doesn't mean I have to like him or support his policies. I don't like where he appears to be leading our country, be it socialist, or otherwise. And since I vote in these elections, I have the right to complain, support, like, or not like. Also, just because any person is our president doesn't mean that he/she is the right one for this country. If we were to go socialist, are you saying you will still support him just because he is our president? NOT ME!!!!!
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The people that go on and on about intelligence are usually the stupid ones!!
We are only stupid for playing your childish game and continuing this ridiculous banter back and forth. Some of us actually tried to include you in an adult conversation and then became frustrated when you couldn't respond back in an adult manner. If your so much more intelligent then be the bigger person and walk away from the discussion and end the childish argument, most of us are here to discuss an issue not call each other stupid. As for your statement that your needs are more important than a strangers. I hope that someday it doesn't take a tragedy for you to realize that a good majority of Americans in general don't feel that way. For example the Hero's in 9/11 that risked their lives and even gave their lives to try to save there fellow Americans no matter what faith they were of. Those are true American's people that set aside there needs to do good for others regardless of the possible outcome.
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The people that go on and on about intelligence are usually the stupid ones!!
For example the Hero's in 9/11 that risked their lives and even gave their lives to try to save there fellow Americans no matter what faith they were of. Those are true American's people that set aside there needs to do good for others regardless of the possible outcome.
They were just doing their job
Actually there were quite a few citizens that volunteered to help in the rescue efforts.
Most americans don't care about the needs of a stranger, do you open your home to homeless people, do you drive a new car instead of a old beat up used one? Do you have all the latest and greatest...exactly, you could care less, what other people need...this is america we want to be rich and have it all.
Who are you to speak for most Americans? Like I said I hope it doesn't take a tragic event for you to realize how good people really can be. Do I open my home to homeless people? If we had a homeless problem where I live I would help as much as I could. Do I drive a new car instead of an old one? What on earth does that have anything to do with helping people? But actually no I drive a used car. Do I have the latest and greatest...? No I am not one to sport material things. I do for my family before myself. And no not everyone wants to be rich and have it all you have a very deluded sense of what America is about. Are there selfish people in America that want it all sure there are.. But would the majority of those people have a heart and help out in the time of need yes. Just last month there was a horrific accident here in Ohio involving a semi truck who ran off the road to avoid hitting another vehicle that cut him off. He ran straight into a steel beam which held up an overpass. Sliced his semi cab right in two which in turn set fire to his truck. There was an article in our local paper about the people driving by that stopped in the middle of a highway and ran across a busy highway and into the flames to get him out. He later died but he died knowing that people care. Would I myself have been one of those people had I been driving by you bet I would. How about all the people that helped out during Katrina? People volunteer all the time because the majority have compassion for those in need. That's the kind of people I am talking about. If you want to live your life believing that people are evil and selfish good for you but I feel sorry for you. What God would condone that?
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You don't have to spam to make your point..your just proving the people that call you childish right. I am not going to continue this pointless conversation with you anymore. I was merely trying to help you understand that just because the few people you know are selfish and you have learned that's the only way to get what you want in life isn't the way most people live their lives. Your obviously very young and naive and refuse to take other peoples comments for what they are worth. But I can promise you if I was driving down the road and seen you in a wreck and needed help, despite your arrogance on the forums here I would still help you. Someday you will mature and realize that there are indeed good people in this country. Or continue to believe that everyone is selfish and only out for themselves its up to you. Just remember there are men and women risking there lives every day for you and all of us. So don't be so quick to judge everyone as a whole based on the few selfish people you personally know. Have a nice fulfilled life in your little deluded world I have nothing more to say to you.
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I want NO part of the current [totally] off topic back and forth going on here, but was reading the latest posts and saw this:
People go to the military because if they didn't they would be drafted...or you would sit in jail...how messed up is that?
Just so you know, marieelissa, there has not been a military draft here since 1973 and it then became an all-volunteer military force. Males still have to register with the Selective Service between the ages of 18 and 25 so that a draft can be resumed immediately if needed. So all the men and women who are military and/or fighting are doing it by their choice. That's your 'fact of the day' - have to learn something new, right?
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PEOPLE! Stop feeding the troll! You have all already wasted a few pages of this thread by arguing with her. Listen, and understand. Internet trolls are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear! And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!!!
Just because he is our president doesn't mean I have to like him or support his policies. I don't like where he appears to be leading our country, be it socialist, or otherwise. And since I vote in these elections, I have the right to complain, support, like, or not like. Also, just because any person is our president doesn't mean that he/she is the right one for this country. If we were to go socialist, are you saying you will still support him just because he is our president? NOT ME!!!!!
Ah! Here we are--
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/195/496388786_596c38252f.jpg?v=0)
I think it's way too early to have a statement like "I don't like where he appears to be leading our country" when our current economic problem is disasterous and is going to take decades to fix. But you're absolutely right that it's pissing people off. And he's pissed off about the mess it is too. If you have a few mins, check out this article I read earlier- http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama I think it explains it on both sides decently. But keep in mind Bush's tax cuts for the rich are still in effect and will be up soon; we're still 'haunted' by a lot of the GOP's mess. Simply put, neither side is gonna be superman and rescue us quick and efficiently.
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PEOPLE! Stop feeding the troll! You have all already wasted a few pages of this thread by arguing with her. Listen, and understand. Internet trolls are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear! And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!!!
Just because he is our president doesn't mean I have to like him or support his policies. I don't like where he appears to be leading our country, be it socialist, or otherwise. And since I vote in these elections, I have the right to complain, support, like, or not like. Also, just because any person is our president doesn't mean that he/she is the right one for this country. If we were to go socialist, are you saying you will still support him just because he is our president? NOT ME!!!!!
Ah! Here we are--
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/195/496388786_596c38252f.jpg?v=0)
I think it's way too early to have a statement like "I don't like where he appears to be leading our country" when our current economic problem is disasterous and is going to take decades to fix. But you're absolutely right that it's pissing people off. And he's pissed off about the mess it is too. If you have a few mins, check out this article I read earlier- http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama I think it explains it on both sides decently. But keep in mind Bush's tax cuts for the rich are still in effect and will be up soon; we're still 'haunted' by a lot of the GOP's mess. Simply put, neither side is gonna be superman and rescue us quick and efficiently.
That's why I said "appears." Thanks for the Teddy Roosevelt quote - at least I know I'm within my rights to question what our current president is doing. Thanks for the article - very interesting.
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It's about time they wake up and expose him unamerican ideals for what they are, unamerican, and quit tiptoeing around him just because him becoming president is controversial.
Ehh...I can kind of agree with you here. A lot of people voted for him for superficial reasons. But if you're referring to things such as healthcare reform as being unamerican, my hands are tied. A lot of people point to it being socialist, which I can see, but something really needed to be done about it. I've learned this from experience (700$ to talk to a doctor for 5 minutes? wtf!?). Desperate times call for desperate measures! I really hope this isn't a permanent thing for this country; I think the smart approach would to have it take full effect, which in turn will force the insurance companies to lower their prices and customer-background standards, and then slowly remove the reform once there's good competition between those companies. Of course this is just speculation but hey, it could work.
How is Obama unamerican?Whether or not you voted for him,nobody can turn around what others have done to america decades & decades ago in a year or2. What r you talking about tip toeing around him? The media has been dumping on him since he became president! Everyone has negative opinions on what he's doing but everytime he try's to fix something, everyone &/or republicans are bitching about it! What do you want from him? It seems like he has to be better than all the other president's be4 him. Why, b/c he's nether black nor white? Why does he have to be perfect when all others had dark secrets in their closets during their presidency? If your bitching about what he has or has not done shut up because I don't see you contributing in the solutions. We are just a bunch of spoiled brat Americans that r crying b/c Daddy didn't get us what we wanted yet. Quit belly aching,get off your asses & support your president. Even if you didn't vote for he, he is still your president. :peace:
1st of all, lose the attitude. If you don't like my opinion you can address it in an adult manner.
2nd of all, I don't support almost all of his policies. I couldn't care less what race he is. In fact, he's not even fully black. People just make a big deal about it because he appears to be fully black. Don't try and make my come off as being shallow in my political beliefs when that is certainly not the case.
3rd, if Bush or any other President hadn't produced a birth certificate, had terrorist ties, or even had a fraction of the shady past Obama does it would be ALL OVER the news. The media hated on Bush so much, but Obama comes into office while we are in trillions of dollars of debt(not his fault) and begins SPENDING MORE MONEY. I disagree with that.
4th, many of his policies reflect socialism. Redistribution of wealth, he supports it. That is absurd and ABSOLUTELY unamerican. I don't think the government should be bailing out so many businesses either, because once they give money(that we don't have) to those businesses they get a say in how the business is ran(money is power), and that is another aspect of socialism.
5th, I never said he had to be perfect, I simply don't agree with him. I guess since I don't agree with you I should "shut up" though right? nice tough with the shut up by the way, really made you seem to have a valid point to make (sarcasm)
1. What do you care about my attitude? You don't know me & that's the way I express myself. 2. If you are not seeing both sides of the coin, then yes your politics is shallow. 3. enlighten me, what shady past does obama have? Look into your history books at all the crooked things past presidents had gotten away with & obama would look like an angelic alter boy. 4. America was looking so good economically until Bush#2 came into office. Bush is part of the reason why we are in that trillion dollar debt. He took us into a war that we didn't need to be in & obama is just sweeping up the mess. Bush Allowed tax breaks to his rich friends & supporters. Obama had to spend more money to a) get the wall street back in the black & b) continue to fund a war that he didn't agree with in the first place. c) Also, had to use monies for other issues like the oil spill. I understand that you don't want wall street to get any monies to save the banks but you don't understand that if they all went out, everything would have been frozen. Money makes the world go round & we would have been in a depression! Obama may be the president but he has to deal with other states of government that usually block all of his ideas. A lot of the stuff he had done was not because he wanted it, it because of the agreement from all state of government. In short, he's had to compromise what he really wanted to happen & thus it always seem to come out short. 5. You've got to be totally nuts if you're saying obama is a socialist. He is totally opposite to that description. Again, one of his policies was to cut the tax breaks to the rich & give the middle class & the poor a change. The problem is that Obama has Republicans opposing every effort for this change. The republicans don't want change they just want to gain more seats in the house so that they can take over again. But remember every time a republican takes office the economy crashes due to their greed to be richer & keep the middle class & poor in the bottom. Take a look in your history & you'll see the the cyclic up & down cycles of the economy & I bet you that When a republican is in the white house the economy is in shits-ville. Usually destroying the good economy the previous president had up held. 6. No, to me it seems like they expect more from him than any of the other presidents before him. Like he has to be perfect to be accepted & I don't think it's right or fair. 7. I wasn't directly speaking to you alone to shut up! I was referring to all that want to *bleep* about what the president is doing or not doing but sit & do nothing to help solve problems. 8. This issue is not black & white & straight forward. There are a lot of gray areas & that's what makes it difficult for the president to get what policies you want to come true. His hands are usually tied due to disagreements between houses. If he had his way, we wouldn't call him president, we'd call him king & we would get what we want w/no barriers. Oh ya, if you're getting your news from Fox, I urge you to stop. That's the brainwashing station!!!!
So everything wrong in America is Republican's fault...that's logical. There so point in me argueing with someone so anti-republican because we will NEVER agree, I suppose you think CNN is much more informed than Fox right? And getting news fro only media outlets will always provide a biased view anyway...anyway, Bush provided tax cuts for more than just the rich...It's a common trend that Democrats raise taxes...and Obama's policies are ABSOLUTELY NOT opposite of socialist policies...what do you think redistribution of wealth is? && I care about your attitude because a debate is ruined when one person gets mad and starts spewing off at the other, the world won't end it two people disagree.
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Heyyyy now let's all play nice! This is just an argument after all. No need to get too personal!
I'm not saying there didn't need to be a change...but his idea is a socialist one. Also, IDK why we would model our healthcare reform after plans of countries that come HERE because theirs doesn't work...
I agree that it is socialist in nature but I wouldn't label him as all-out socialist just because of one contraversial issue. And yeah! I admit that this plan could damage us even more! The only thing I'm saying is that something needed to be done, and given that the republicans idea to give every person a 5,000$ deductable would be pointless in my eyes because just talking to a doctor for less than 5 minutes at an ER costs over 700$. Imagine what a surgery would cost for an uninsured person. Not to get too personal, but this is a major reason I haven't had surgery on my shoulder because I dislocated it and shredded the cartalidge ring.
As far as other countries healthcare goes, which ones are you referring to? I would speculate that a majority of uninsured people order their meds from Canada since they're a lot cheaper. Im on a small dosage of lamictal and it costs OVER 500$ for a 2 months supply from any pharmacy around me. If I order it from Canada, it's between 1-200$. So all that I'm saying is that our current system is completely broken. I'm curious of your own insight though-- if there is a better plan, what do you think it would be? What do you think that would work? I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything; I don't know of any other viable plan myself.
How is Obama unamerican?
Pretty much because of my first sentence responding to Macks post.
I agree that something needed to be done...I'm just not for government being so involved in everything and deciding who gets what and a lot of this plan has a ton of government control. I didn't mean to make it sound like he is an all-out socialist, but I do feel that he has many policies leading that way, not just the healthcare reform. For instance, his support of redistribution of wealth. Also, in bailing out so many companies the government gets a say in their business choices(socialism). Anyway, even if he is not ALL socialism he is too much for my liking.
Another thing that really ticks me off about the healthcare reform is that all illegal immigrants get their healthcare paid for, I can't fathom how that is even close to fair. More than that though I find it RIDICULOUS that our government thinks they can decide the salary of doctors. In doing this there will be little to no incentive for people to choose that career, especially considering how expensive medical school is and how much debt they have to pay off, which is one of the reasons they have higher salaries.
I also feel like one of the reasons that our healthcare is so expensive is because we have some of the most capable physicians as well as the most advanced medical techniques, which is why people from all other nations come here, even thought they usually are wealthy.
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I don't think so. 13 is not old enough to reason with difficult adult subjects such as what this forum is about. You can't even do surveys unless you are 18yrs old. Check out the rules please. You are barely a preteen & too young to discuss these types of issues. Don't try to grow up so fast. Youth will gone fast enough. Just enjoy being a kid.
Maybe you should read the terms of service :P
i.Users must be 18 years or older OR 13 years or older with parental permission. A user under 18 certifies that a parent has given permission by registering and agreeing to these terms.
http://www.fusioncash.net/tos.php
How do we know that you actually got adult permission? Anyway, I still think you're too young for this link.
I don't give a what about what you think...How do you know I didn't get adult permission? Get back to your room until you can play nice.
Elttil lrig eht lived si retfa uoy!!!!
little girl the devil is after you... ::)
ukcf ouy
It would be wise if someone banned you from this forum.
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It would be wise if someone banned you from this forum.
It would be wise if you back up off me and leave me alone. ;)
Why should I be banned? because that is what it says: Elttil lrig eht lived si retfa uoy!!!!
little girl the devil is after you!!!! typed backwards
And I get banned for pointing out what the chick wrote to me? That seems unfair.
Leave me alone, it is the christian thing to do... :peace:
actually I was addressing your little word scramble to her, and just your total inability to participate in an adult discussion
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It would be wise if someone banned you from this forum.
It would be wise if you back up off me and leave me alone. ;)
Why should I be banned? because that is what it says: Elttil lrig eht lived si retfa uoy!!!!
little girl the devil is after you!!!! typed backwards
And I get banned for pointing out what the chick wrote to me? That seems unfair.
Leave me alone, it is the christian thing to do... :peace:
actually I was addressing your little word scramble to her, and just your total inability to participate in an adult discussion
As long as there is something to discuss, I will do just fine but it seems people would rather fight.
You contributed nothing to the discussion about the mosque...don't kid yourself.
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You contributed nothing to the discussion about the mosque...don't kid yourself.
Yes my opinions are a contribution whether you agree with them or not.
They would be a contribution if they were relevant to the topic, however mostly you have been spouting off about things that are nowhere near anything to do with the mosque.
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You contributed nothing to the discussion about the mosque...don't kid yourself.
Yes my opinions are a contribution whether you agree with them or not.
They would be a contribution if they were relevant to the topic, however mostly you have been spouting off about things that are nowhere near anything to do with the mosque.
That is just how the conversation went.
Every single thread you post on ends up that way, why is that?
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You contributed nothing to the discussion about the mosque...don't kid yourself.
Yes my opinions are a contribution whether you agree with them or not.
They would be a contribution if they were relevant to the topic, however mostly you have been spouting off about things that are nowhere near anything to do with the mosque.
That is just how the conversation went.
Every single thread you post on ends up that way, why is that?
Because people don't agree with me
That is absolutely not why. We all disagree with each other on these threads, but we can have civil debates about it. You on the other hand get on here and waste people's time with ramblings. I suggest you think your responses through and try to have a real debate every so often, it's healthy to hear both sides of an issue instead of senselessly rambling.
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You contributed nothing to the discussion about the mosque...don't kid yourself.
Yes my opinions are a contribution whether you agree with them or not.
They would be a contribution if they were relevant to the topic, however mostly you have been spouting off about things that are nowhere near anything to do with the mosque.
That is just how the conversation went.
Every single thread you post on ends up that way, why is that?
Because people don't agree with me
That is absolutely not why. We all disagree with each other on these threads, but we can have civil debates about it. You on the other hand get on here and waste people's time with ramblings. I suggest you think your responses through and try to have a real debate every so often, it's healthy to hear both sides of an issue instead of senselessly rambling.
It makes sense...
how is this response relevant to what i said?
more senseless rambling.
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You contributed nothing to the discussion about the mosque...don't kid yourself.
Yes my opinions are a contribution whether you agree with them or not.
They would be a contribution if they were relevant to the topic, however mostly you have been spouting off about things that are nowhere near anything to do with the mosque.
That is just how the conversation went.
Every single thread you post on ends up that way, why is that?
Because people don't agree with me
That is absolutely not why. We all disagree with each other on these threads, but we can have civil debates about it. You on the other hand get on here and waste people's time with ramblings. I suggest you think your responses through and try to have a real debate every so often, it's healthy to hear both sides of an issue instead of senselessly rambling.
It makes sense...
how is this response relevant to what i said?
more senseless rambling.
Makes sense to me...what is funny though, is I understand everyone on this forum yet no one understands me...why is that?
This is the 1st thing you've said that is actually logical.
&& I'll tell you why. It's because our responses are thought through and made with logical reasoning, while yours are usually senseless babbling that are often not even relevant to the subject.
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This is the 1st thing you've said that is actually logical.
&& I'll tell you why. It's because our responses are thought through and made with logical reasoning, while yours are usually senseless babbling that are often not even relevant to the subject.
Hard to be rational when people can't have a discussion without attacking someone. There is no debate or discussion, it is just personal attacks, and it angers me.
Then stop personally attacking people.
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This is the 1st thing you've said that is actually logical.
&& I'll tell you why. It's because our responses are thought through and made with logical reasoning, while yours are usually senseless babbling that are often not even relevant to the subject.
Hard to be rational when people can't have a discussion without attacking someone. There is no debate or discussion, it is just personal attacks, and it angers me.
Then stop personally attacking people.
I don't attack first you know.
false.
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false.
True it is not false.
cool.
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Posted by marieelissa:Makes sense to me...what is funny though, is I understand everyone on this forum yet no one understands me...why is that?
Posted by marieelissa:
Because people don't agree with me.
:cat: Marie, There are several people who have understood you, and/or at least tried. They have also agreed/tried to agree with you. Yet you never give them a "thank you" or credit for that. Why? It seems you would just rather argue or "see" something in what they say to pick it apart defensively. I, Annella, SurveyMack, and others are among these who have tried to talk to you or back you up when it's gotten bad.
There are times when you nail those posts down with very good ideas/debates, while at other times you seem in another world, totally not with the thread going on (that's when things start getting weird.) At least give people credit where credit is due when they do get along with you and agree with you. Before I knew this forum well enough, I backed you up a lot. Now I pretty much know the way it really is, and it just gets confusing enough that I don't even get involved half the time when you go off in left field.
That said, I really enjoy this forum, getting to know people, debating others, and just plain speaking my mind! :wave:
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(http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn213/Spicerack1/blank_facepalm_224.gif)
People...please...for the last time...don't talk to marie. You keep wasting your time. You've wasted yet another full page of posts arguing with her mentally-challenged nonsense. You must learn discipline!
I'll get back to my replies on this thread later.
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jcribb16,
I think there is one name you ought to cross off your list of people who have tried to help. She did it for the proverbial 'hot minute', but since then and hundreds of posts later, it seems to have turned into a ridiculous back and forth which is going nowhere. This thread is great example of it and I see it all over the place again. We have ALL had our rally at her, I claim NO innocence on my part, but I have also stopped doing it as of a few weeks ago. It seems to be more important than some topics lately that I thought were going well and we were actually having good discussions about them. I still don't understand why entire chunks of 10-15+ replies have to keep getting quoted over and over and over?
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Thank you, jordandog, I agree... I just couldn't seem to help myself, but I have gotten better. I promise I will improve!!!! :thumbsup:
P.S. Perfect picture/point!!!!!
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You know, I haven't really been here that long but it has been very interesting to see how many people come in and stick up for marie and then quickly learn how she operates.
marie, no one can say you are boring, that's for sure! ;)
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You know, I haven't really been here that long but it has been very interesting to see how many people come in and stick up for marie and then quickly learn how she operates.
marie, no one can say you are boring, that's for sure! ;)
OK I am going to have to dis-agree with you on this one.
This has went way past the entertaining stage til now....yeah, I'm pretty bored with her disruptions on these discussions.
She claims she only posts for the 3 dollar per month bonus......well I will personally send her, not 3 bucks a month, but rather 3 bucks a week if she will just stop, who wants to match me?
Of course we all know that the "I only post for the bonus" comment was total horse *bleep*, but I stand by my offer.
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I just put her on ignore for a week and took a break from her LOL
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I just put her on ignore for a week and took a break from her LOL
I have got her on ignore, however when others quote her over and over I have to scroll thru pages of her still......guess I'll have to add everyone that responds to her to my ignore list......course she might be lonely there all by herself, guess they can keep her company since they like chatting it up with her so much ;0)
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jcribb16,
I think there is one name you ought to cross off your list of people who have tried to help. She did it for the proverbial 'hot minute', but since then and hundreds of posts later, it seems to have turned into a ridiculous back and forth which is going nowhere. This thread is great example of it and I see it all over the place again. We have ALL had our rally at her, I claim NO innocence on my part, but I have also stopped doing it as of a few weeks ago. It seems to be more important than some topics lately that I thought were going well and we were actually having good discussions about them. I still don't understand why entire chunks of 10-15+ replies have to keep getting quoted over and over and over?
This may be about me? Idk, but only in the past couple of days have I fed into it, the reason being that it irritates me that I have backed her on a thread only to hear her a few weeks later TOTALLY contradict what she was so wholeheartedly supporting before. It throws me off and I cannot fathom how she comprehends things, and after trying to talk with her she resorting to pettiness, and I too did too much of that. I just feel someone needs to tell her she isn't making sense and no one can have a real conversation with her when she constantly contradicts. I imagine I'm not the 1st one who has gotten sucked in, but I feel if I call her out IMMEDIATELY others who dont know her wont back her on things she doesnt even back herself.
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You know, I haven't really been here that long but it has been very interesting to see how many people come in and stick up for marie and then quickly learn how she operates.
marie, no one can say you are boring, that's for sure! ;)
Exactly what happened to me.
I am just utterly frustrated, I've seen her say
I'm a Baptist Christian through and through don't you dare bash my religion...
then say I'm not sure if there is a God...
The military are people who just don't wanna get drafted IDK why they even do what they do...
The military are heroes...
A mosque is freedom of religion...
*bleep* and sex stores should be banned...
All of this is so contradictory to I cannot even make sense of it.
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You know, I haven't really been here that long but it has been very interesting to see how many people come in and stick up for marie and then quickly learn how she operates.
marie, no one can say you are boring, that's for sure! ;)
OK I am going to have to dis-agree with you on this one.
This has went way past the entertaining stage til now....yeah, I'm pretty bored with her disruptions on these discussions.
She claims she only posts for the 3 dollar per month bonus......well I will personally send her, not 3 bucks a month, but rather 3 bucks a week if she will just stop, who wants to match me?
Of course we all know that the "I only post for the bonus" comment was total horse *bleep*, but I stand by my offer.
I'll match that haha.
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but I feel if I call her out IMMEDIATELY others who dont know her wont back her on things she doesnt even back herself.
You would think this would work but when new people come in and see you calling her out and don't know the whole story, it just makes you look like you're picking on her. People were calling her a troll and, it seemed, antagonizing her to a point, when I first came in.
I stuck up for her, I defended her. I noticed she contradicted herself and I called her on it and then she attacked me a few times and the posts got wackier and more nonsensical. I thought others were just being mean to her but they were just already aware of her patterns and were already tired of the nonsense lol.
Best thing to do is take what she says with a grain of salt. :)
Making the effort to call her out on anything is wasted. ;)
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but I feel if I call her out IMMEDIATELY others who dont know her wont back her on things she doesnt even back herself.
You would think this would work but when new people come in and see you calling her out and don't know the whole story, it just makes you look like you're picking on her. People were calling her a troll and, it seemed, antagonizing her to a point, when I first came in.
I stuck up for her, I defended her. I noticed she contradicted herself and I called her on it and then she attacked me a few times and the posts got wackier and more nonsensical. I thought others were just being mean to her but they were just already aware of her patterns and were already tired of the nonsense lol.
Best thing to do is take what she says with a grain of salt. :)
Making the effort to call her out on anything is wasted. ;)
Haha that basically described my situation as well! Except I'm not ready to let her off the hook for the bull that she says, but I should just drop it.
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That's why I said "appears." Thanks for the Teddy Roosevelt quote - at least I know I'm within my rights to question what our current president is doing. Thanks for the article - very interesting.
Np, d00d.
I agree that something needed to be done...I'm just not for government being so involved in everything and deciding who gets what and a lot of this plan has a ton of government control. I didn't mean to make it sound like he is an all-out socialist, but I do feel that he has many policies leading that way, not just the healthcare reform. For instance, his support of redistribution of wealth. Also, in bailing out so many companies the government gets a say in their business choices(socialism). Anyway, even if he is not ALL socialism he is too much for my liking.
Completely understandable. But there's a variable missing here of better alternative as to what's currently being served. This may sound like I'm slanted towards democrats (...I really don't want to be looked as that way...), but I did not see any viable idea with the GOP.
Another thing that really ticks me off about the healthcare reform is that all illegal immigrants get their healthcare paid for, I can't fathom how that is even close to fair.
What do you know of this? I haven't heard much of this, but if this is true, that's completely insane. BUT at the same time don't they do this already? I mean ER's have to help people in need. I'm not an illegal, but I haven't paid anything for my last visit and I don't plan to unless they mark it down immensily. I just grabbed an article online for quick reference- http://ohmygov.com/blogs/general_news/archive/2009/03/13/debunking-myths-about-health-insurance-for-illegal-immigrants.aspx
I also feel like one of the reasons that our healthcare is so expensive is because we have some of the most capable physicians as well as the most advanced medical techniques, which is why people from all other nations come here, even thought they usually are wealthy.
Next time I talk to a doctor, I gotta remember to ask what they think about the current situation.
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You know, I haven't really been here that long but it has been very interesting to see how many people come in and stick up for marie and then quickly learn how she operates.
marie, no one can say you are boring, that's for sure! ;)
OK I am going to have to dis-agree with you on this one.
This has went way past the entertaining stage til now....yeah, I'm pretty bored with her disruptions on these discussions.
She claims she only posts for the 3 dollar per month bonus......well I will personally send her, not 3 bucks a month, but rather 3 bucks a week if she will just stop, who wants to match me?
Of course we all know that the "I only post for the bonus" comment was total horse *bleep*, but I stand by my offer.
I'll match that haha.
Well, Daddy Mack.....our 3 bucks a week is obviously going to stay in our own pockets.
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LOL it's Momma Mack! ;)
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LOL it's Momma Mack! ;)
....wanna fight about it??? ;0)
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I'm a Baptist Christian through and through don't you dare bash my religion...
then say I'm not sure if there is a God...
You know there is a difference between what you know and what you believe right?
Do you believe in life and you're alive or do you know?
A mosque is freedom of religion...
*bleep* and sex stores should be banned...
Is the mosque bad in God's eyes...NOPE.
You have claimed to KNOW God and that you personally chat with him through your psychic abilities, and don't say you haven't
and whether or not God agrees with the mosque is not a part of this discussion, not that you can speak for Him anyway
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Adam and Eve have passed on this fatal tendency to all their descendants. This flaw in man is 'human nature' or what the bible calls 'the flesh', or 'the carnal mind'.
It can lead to many different results: "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkeness, orgies, and things like these. I will warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". (Galatians 5v19-21).
once again youve managed to post something that has no relevance to the conversation. attaway keep it up. wouldnt want your reputation to become credible.
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Adam and Eve have passed on this fatal tendency to all their descendants. This flaw in man is 'human nature' or what the bible calls 'the flesh', or 'the carnal mind'.
It can lead to many different results: "Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkeness, orgies, and things like these. I will warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God". (Galatians 5v19-21).
once again youve managed to post something that has no relevance to the conversation. attaway keep it up. wouldnt want your reputation to become credible.
You are a bad christian and you are making God angry... :angry7:
allrighty. I'll stay tuned for the 2nd round of judgement.
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ya no one had posted on here in like 2 days, quit egging it on child.
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ya no one had posted on here in like 2 days, quit egging it on child.
So...you just posted...if you don't want to keep the topic going, then don't post.
cool.
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ya no one had posted on here in like 2 days, quit egging it on child.
So...you just posted...if you don't want to keep the topic going, then don't post.
cool.
You are just a stupid girl...you try to get me mad and then just reply with cool...Grow up.
will do.