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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: carty1 on February 15, 2012, 06:54:56 pm
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If it wasn't for God we wouldn't be here. I was really sick and God has healed me so God is always real and never FAKE. :notworthy:
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I was really sick and God has healed me so God is always real and never FAKE.
What's your story?
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I think we were all created like Dr. Manhattan from the movie The Watchmen! YEAHHH!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
CHECK IT!!!!
http://youtu.be/KK0TmNx2cSw
Just kidding, but it would be cool, though!! :dontknow:
....carry on!
lol
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If it wasn't for God we wouldn't be here. I was really sick and God has healed me so God is always real and never FAKE. :notworthy:
What's your story?
At this point, I'm listening and awaiting a response ...
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Falcon do me a favor, if/when you get that response (leave it alone please) they have their belief and you have yours so just leave it at that...you dont have to start picking apart all of what they have to say when it comes to God....I believe God has helped me threw alot myself and that's all you need to know......I dont want to hear from you that there is "NO GOD" because in my heart there is and there is NOTHING you can say to change my mind or ANYONES mind for that matter who believes in GOD!!
So unless you are looking to start ANOTHER fued on here, pssssst let he/she say what they want without any critizisem from you :wave:..............and for the record I know I spelt some words wrong but as I said before i'm NOT the best speller ok so dont even go there........hmmmm now your responce will be interesting :).....i'm waiting hahaha.......but do me a favor if you do respond? keep it simple (ya i'm on the simple side)...I hate when you use words that I NEVER heard of before lol
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Falcon do me a favor, if/when you get that response (leave it alone please)
I respectfully decline the request; this is the _Debate_ + Discussion forum. If the poster did not wish debate and discussion, they would not have posted their reply here, (established risk warning and all).
they have their belief and you have yours so just leave it at that...
They entered D+D at their own risk, as did you and I. If they wish to post concerning their beliefs in D+D, some D+D should be expected. Not expecting such is largely an unreasonable expectation.
you dont have to start picking apart all of what they have to say when it comes to God....
Conversely, you don't have to make such an unreasonable request in the debate & discussion forum. It isn't entitled the 'no dissenting opinions' forum.
I believe God has helped me threw alot myself and that's all you need to know......
While you are free to hold any irrational beliefs desired, once you put them out here in a public forum known as "Debate+Discussion", they are open to debate+discussion. If you do not desire debate & discussion of your 'faith/beliefs', the simplest solution would be to avoid putting them on D+D.
I dont want to hear from you that there is "NO GOD" because in my heart there is ...
If you do not wish to "hear" challenges to your blind faith, don't read them. If you'd been paying attention, you'd already know that I haven't asserted that "there is no god"; I've repeatedly challenged those who do assert that there is to provide substantive evidence to support their claim. That's how it works; the burden of proof is on the claimaint, (what's in your heart does not constitute evidence).
and there is NOTHING you can say to change my mind or ANYONES mind for that matter who believes in GOD!!
This only indicates that your mind is closed by blind faith. How strong is such a 'faith' that cannot withstand even minimal challenge?
So unless you are looking to start ANOTHER fued on here, pssssst let he/she say what they want without any critizisem from you :wave:
Again, I will respectfully decline your offer of censorship and continue to challenge empty proclaimations.
..............and for the record I know I spelt some words wrong but as I said before i'm NOT the best speller ok so dont even go there........hmmmm now your responce will be interesting :).....i'm waiting hahaha.......but do me a favor if you do respond? keep it simple (ya i'm on the simple side)...I hate when you use words that I NEVER heard of before lol
While I may occassionally point out a mispelled word for the humor value, I'm not an English teacher, (and besides, I mispell on occassion due to a mild case of dyslexia). As for my response; it is what it is.
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Well Falcon I guess you told me, are you happy now lol....you are one that I would be in a love/hate relationship because at times I would love to hate you but then again hate to NOT love you hahaha.............Ok carry on ya gonna do what ya gonna do anyways but THAT was just my thoughts so there razzzzzz
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Falcon do me a favor, if/when you get that response (leave it alone please) they have their belief and you have yours so just leave it at that...you dont have to start picking apart all of what they have to say when it comes to God....I believe God has helped me threw alot myself and that's all you need to know......I dont want to hear from you that there is "NO GOD" because in my heart there is and there is NOTHING you can say to change my mind or ANYONES mind for that matter who believes in GOD!!
So unless you are looking to start ANOTHER fued on here, pssssst let he/she say what they want without any critizisem from you :wave:..............and for the record I know I spelt some words wrong but as I said before i'm NOT the best speller ok so dont even go there........hmmmm now your responce will be interesting :).....i'm waiting hahaha.......but do me a favor if you do respond? keep it simple (ya i'm on the simple side)...I hate when you use words that I NEVER heard of before lol
It is all an opinion.. and in his there is no god,and there is nothing you can say that will make him change his mind or someone elses that doesnt believe in god.. you do not have to have the same beliefs. however everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. "I for one am glad to still be able to express my opinion on here without censorship."
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Falcon do me a favor, if/when you get that response (leave it alone please) they have their belief and you have yours so just leave it at that...you dont have to start picking apart all of what they have to say when it comes to God....I believe God has helped me threw alot myself and that's all you need to know......I dont want to hear from you that there is "NO GOD" because in my heart there is and there is NOTHING you can say to change my mind or ANYONES mind for that matter who believes in GOD!!
So unless you are looking to start ANOTHER fued on here, pssssst let he/she say what they want without any critizisem from you :wave:..............and for the record I know I spelt some words wrong but as I said before i'm NOT the best speller ok so dont even go there........hmmmm now your responce will be interesting :).....i'm waiting hahaha.......but do me a favor if you do respond? keep it simple (ya i'm on the simple side)...I hate when you use words that I NEVER heard of before lol
It is all an opinion.. and in his there is no god,and there is nothing you can say that will make him change his mind or someone elses that doesnt believe in god.. you do not have to have the same beliefs. however everyone is entitled to thier own opinion. "I for one am glad to still be able to express my opinion on here without censorship."
Hi, I so agree, I just didnt want to start another fued...and yes I know all about everyone having an opinion and we're all intitled to one, but why does it have to turn into something ugly? not saying that THIS will but when it comes to "A GOD" it's bound to...I like peace...so they say then stay off here right..well have MY opions too ya know wheather they make sense or not haha...just my opinion :)
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Well Falcon I guess you told me, are you happy now lol....
I am currently functioning within nominal operating parameters, thanks.
you are one that I would be in a love/hate relationship because at times I would love to hate you but then again hate to NOT love you hahaha.......
For some reason, I'm nearly certain my gf would object to that. (in her own special way).
......Ok carry on ya gonna do what ya gonna do anyways but THAT was just my thoughts so there razzzzzz
I will, thanks. I take it that, from your previous comments, you have no intention of supporting the claims in your beliefs?
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It is all an opinion..
There is, however, a qualitive difference in a foundationless opinion and challenging such foundationless opinions.
and in his there is no god
As mentioned to "cateyes1", I've asserted no such thing while continuing to request supporting evidence when it is claimed. Thusfar, no one has provided any substantive evidence which supports such beliefs. Have you got any to present?
and there is nothing you can say that will make him change his mind or someone elses that doesnt believe in god..
This is incorrect; should someone present credible evidence to support a claim for the existence of a 'deity', I will examine such evidence as objectively as possible, (that is, within the parameters of reason, not 'faith').
"I for one am glad to still be able to express my opinion on here without censorship."
I concur, notwithstanding a few attempts to censor dissenting views.
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why does it have to turn into something ugly? not saying that THIS will but when it comes to "A GOD" it's bound to...
Were I to speculate, (based upon a large number of previous responses in this regard), it may be due to an unwillingness to examine 'blind faith' too closely. Whether is is because it doesn't bear close examination or, related to some unspecified fear(s) is not conclusive.
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I will, thanks. I take it that, from your previous comments, you have no intention of supporting the claims in your beliefs?
Falcon I am not one to argue over "one's beliefs" I just know that in MY heart there is a GOD for the simple fact that ALL that I have been threw I prayed to GOD to keep me strong (so here I am sill here) chugging along, didnt commit sucide like allot do, and I know that for a fact by the way when things get rough. and I contribute my strength to my prayers to GOD yes there I said it GOD. no need to argue the fact nor the feel that I have to support my beliefs, you believ for what ever reason that there isnt a God and I believe that there IS that enough for me ;D sorry if I refuse to fuel you up about a debate but thats my story and i'm sticking to it :wave:
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why does it have to turn into something ugly? not saying that THIS will but when it comes to "A GOD" it's bound to...
Were I to speculate, (based upon a large number of previous responses in this regard), it may be due to an unwillingness to examine 'blind faith' too closely. Whether is is because it doesn't bear close examination or, related to some unspecified fear(s) is not conclusive.
I hate when you do this Falcon, i've asked you time and time again to keep things simple yet you ramble on with these words or rather the way you put words together UGH lol .............here it is only 7:30 here in Beantown and I already have a headache just reading you :sad1:
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If it wasn't for God we wouldn't be here. I was really sick and God has healed me so God is always real and never FAKE. :notworthy:
Well I'm sure we are all glad you are feeling better :angel12:
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Falcon I am not one to argue over "one's beliefs"
And yet, here you are, arguing for your beliefs.
I just know that in MY heart there is a GOD for the simple fact that ALL that I have been threw I prayed to GOD to keep me strong
This is what was meant by arguing for your beliefs and by false attributions. Choosing to attribute something to a vague deity without any evidence to suppor such an attribution is what makes it a false one. Comforting or not, the only basis for it is 'faith', (which itself, has no basis).
(so here I am sill here) chugging along, didnt commit sucide like allot do, and I know that for a fact by the way when things get rough. and I contribute my strength to my prayers to GOD yes there I said it GOD. no need to argue the fact ...
As previously mentioned, it isn't a "fact" - it's a belief, (the two are far from equivalent).
nor the feel that I have to support my beliefs ...
True, there's no need to support blind faith because that would remove the 'blind' aspect of it.
you believ for what ever reason that there isnt a God and I believe that there IS that enough for me ;D sorry if I refuse to fuel you up about a debate but thats my story and i'm sticking to it :wave:
One of the best ways to avoid providing fuel for a debate is to stop putting reply-logs on the fire. Otherwise, someone's bound to bring marshmallows.
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I hate when you do this Falcon, i've asked you time and time again to keep things simple yet you ramble on with these words or rather the way you put words together UGH lol .............here it is only 7:30 here in Beantown and I already have a headache just reading you :sad1:
It boils down to fear(s). That, and forlorn hope.
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falcon falcon falcon, ok I get it, no matter what I say you're going to tear it apart piece by piece, you have an answer for EVERYTHING.........oh and I loooooove marshmellos hahahaha :thumbsup:
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I hate when you do this Falcon, i've asked you time and time again to keep things simple yet you ramble on with these words or rather the way you put words together UGH lol .............here it is only 7:30 here in Beantown and I already have a headache just reading you :sad1:
It boils down to fear(s). That, and forlorn hope.
forlone hope? where is a dictionary when I need one UGH....i'm going to stay clear of you from now on
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falcon falcon falcon, ok I get it, no matter what I say you're going to tear it apart piece by piece, you have an answer for EVERYTHING.........oh and I loooooove marshmellos hahahaha :thumbsup:
Welcome to D+D. Don't let your marshmallows catch fire.
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falcon falcon falcon, ok I get it, no matter what I say you're going to tear it apart piece by piece, you have an answer for EVERYTHING.........oh and I loooooove marshmellos hahahaha :thumbsup:
Welcome to D+D. Don't let your marshmallows catch fire.
The heck, I wont let my marshmellos catch fire, I dont like burnt marshmellos :P
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forlone hope? where is a dictionary when I need one [?]
"Noun: An arduous or nearly hopeless undertaking." <-- one aspect
UGH....i'm going to stay clear of you from now on
Thanks for the memories.
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forlone hope? where is a dictionary when I need one [?]
"Noun: An arduous or nearly hopeless undertaking." <-- one aspect
UGH....i'm going to stay clear of you from now on
Thanks for the memories.
ANYTIME HAHAHAHA
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If it wasn't for God we wouldn't be here. I was really sick and God has healed me so God is always real and never FAKE. :notworthy:
If it wasn't for a million different things, you wouldn't be here. Like if your mom claimed to have a "headache" on the day you were conceived. Ba dum, psh!
What about the billions of people across time who god HASN'T healed? What makes you special, hmm?
Congrats on your body doing it's job and repairing what needed to be repaired. It's happened to me before, too. Give credit where credit is due.
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If it wasn't for a million different things, you wouldn't be here. Like if your mom claimed to have a "headache" on the day you were conceived. Ba dum, psh!
And not one of those million of things can be accurately attributed to any 'deity', (specious beliefs notwithstanding).
What about the billions of people across time who god HASN'T healed?
Those would be the 'infidels', (or people who go to doctors and give that a spin on the wheel of chance)?
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What about the billions of people across time that God hasn't healed?
*How many of them even heard of God and prayed for healing?
*How many of them had faith in Him to believe for their healing?
*How many of them had addictions to things that would harm their health and it didn't stop them until they had a terminal diagnosis (and even then, THAT doesn't stop many). God can certainly heal a terminal diagnosis but usually when someone has indulged in a health-harming addiction...there are consequences for partaking, it goes along with the "laws of the universe". (Sickness can also be a consequence for something else someone did wrong...it doesn't just have to be a consequence of addictions.)
*There are believers that have prayed for the salvation of loved ones and then they died from a serious illness. Their loved ones accepted God into their lives shortly after because of the witness that their dearly departed was to them. While these deceased may have prayed for healing when they were alive...ultimately they wanted their loved ones to find God and by His plan, they did.
*How many of them just expected that a prayer to God would be a "quick fix" rather than try to do something for themselves? (Example: the busy carpenter who owns his own construction business. He knows he's having problems but rather than go see a doctor, he prays and keeps working. He dies from prostate cancer a short time later because he put off going to the doctor for too long.)
*Noone gets out of this life alive, everyone is going to die from something. Sickness & death wasn't part of God's original plan. What sense would it really make for God to heal everyone just to have them die again from something else later?
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"What about the billions of people across time that God hasn't healed?"
*How many of them even heard of God and prayed for healing?
That's irrelavent since at least some of them purportly had others 'praying for healing' and they died anyway.
*How many of them had faith in Him to believe for their healing?
No wonder the question of 'faith' was in the "Payments" section of FC; such 'payment' is apparently implicit.
*How many of them had addictions to things that would harm their health and it didn't stop them until they had a terminal diagnosis (and even then, THAT doesn't stop many). God can certainly heal a terminal diagnosis but usually when someone has indulged in a health-harming addiction...there are consequences for partaking, it goes along with the "laws of the universe". (Sickness can also be a consequence for something else someone did wrong...it doesn't just have to be a consequence of addictions.)
What happened to your contention about making unreasonably unrealistic 'prayer requests'?
*There are believers that have prayed for the salvation of loved ones and then they died from a serious illness.
This would appear to indicate that the 'prayers for healing' failed.
*How many of them just expected that a prayer to God would be a "quick fix" rather than try to do something for themselves? (Example: the busy carpenter who owns his own construction business. He knows he's having problems but rather than go see a doctor, he prays and keeps working. He dies from prostate cancer a short time later because he put off going to the doctor for too long.)
Yet, going to the doctor would mean a potential medical solution, (rather than one which could be attributed to 'prayer'). Whereas neither procedure is necessarily a "quick fix", the example presents a false dichotomy nonetheless.
*Noone gets out of this life alive, everyone is going to die from something. Sickness & death wasn't part of God's original plan.
There is no evidence of such a "plan", (references to the 'bible' are not examples factual evidence).
What sense would it really make for God to heal everyone just to have them die again from something else later?
Why bother 'praying for healing' at all in that case?
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That's irrelavent since at least some of them purportly had others 'praying for healing' and they died anyway.
God doesn't infringe on other's "free will", so if that person didn't actually pray for healing themselves then...
No wonder the question of 'faith' was in the "Payments" section of FC; such 'payment' is apparently implicit.
WHY should God heal anyone that doesn't have faith in Him? Satan can heal too, why didn't he heal the billions of people across time?? What happened to your contention about making unreasonably unrealistic 'prayer requests'?
It still stands. Examples: A Believer that wants a house but has no money has every right as a Believer to pray for a house, to find the house they want and to verbally claim it and expect God to deliver the "goods" if it's His Will. -VS- A believer that is married decides to diovorce their spouse and marry their spouse's best friend instead. A few short years later, that person has terminal cancer. According to the Bible, the reason for the divorce was not "valid". It could very well be that that sickness was a result of disobedience to God. They can pray for healing but in their hearts...they know they disobeyed and that always comes with a price to pay.
[/quote]*There are believers that have prayed for the salvation of loved ones and then they died from a serious illness.
This would appear to indicate that the 'prayers for healing' failed.
The prayers for healing failed but their prayers for anothers salvation was answered and ultimately, that would be what mattered most to the deceased anyway.
Yet, going to the doctor would mean a potential medical solution, (rather than one which could be attributed to 'prayer'). Whereas neither procedure is necessarily a "quick fix", the example presents a false dichotomy nonetheless.
I know a guy that did just that, he was too busy to go to the doctor until it was too late. His family was praying for him and when he died, his son now hates God for not healing him. God gave that man a brain and several warning signs, he should have gone to the doctor. God doesn't stop anyone from doing something stupid. He isn't obligated to heal them if they do.
Why bother 'praying for healing' at all in that case?
Because sickness/afflictions happen that aren't in God's plan. Sickness/afflictions happen that is the result of satan trying to keep a person in bondage. That can be healed.
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That's irrelavent since at least some of them purportly had others 'praying for healing' and they died anyway.
God doesn't infringe on other's "free will", so if that person didn't actually pray for healing themselves then...
... then, others 'praying' to "heal" someone else would be ineffectual.
No wonder the question of 'faith' was in the "Payments" section of FC; such 'payment' is apparently implicit.
WHY should God heal anyone that doesn't have faith in Him?
It couldn't be that such a "god" is purportedly 'kind' enough to do so without such 'payment' but, apparently not.
Satan can heal too, why didn't he heal the billions of people across time??
As a ventured guess; because "satan" isn't purportedly a 'kind' fellow. If you are getting at an implied 'depends on who is worshipped' premise, the same contention applies in that there isn't any accurate way to attribute any such "healing" to "satan" or "god".
What happened to your contention about making unreasonably unrealistic 'prayer requests'?
It still stands. It could very well be that that sickness was a result of disobedience to God.
"It could well be ... " is a speculative attribution without substanstive basis.
*There are believers that have prayed for the salvation of loved ones and then they died from a serious illness.
This would appear to indicate that the 'prayers for healing' failed.
The prayers for healing failed but their prayers for anothers salvation was answered and ultimately, that would be what mattered most to the deceased anyway.
On the contrary, there's not a shred of evidence to support a contention that such "salvation prayers" wre answered. How would you know?
Yet, going to the doctor would mean a potential medical solution, (rather than one which could be attributed to 'prayer'). Whereas neither procedure is necessarily a "quick fix", the example presents a false dichotomy nonetheless.
I know a guy that did just that, he was too busy to go to the doctor until it was too late. His family was praying for him and when he died, his son now hates God for not healing him. God gave that man a brain and several warning signs, he should have gone to the doctor. God doesn't stop anyone from doing something stupid. He isn't obligated to heal them if they do.
Firstly, there is no evidence to support the contentions that "god gave that man a brain and several warning signs". These contentions have the form of an unfounded belief since people are nominally born with brains, sans any direct attribution to a 'creator', (other than a person's parents). Secondly, doing something stupid or wise is up to the free-willed person and not some externally-posited 'deity'.
Why bother 'praying for healing' at all in that case?
Because sickness/afflictions happen that aren't in God's plan.
Unless you happen to have an unabridged copy of such a "plan", this is an unfounded belief, (and if you do have such a copy, can you fax it to me for perusal?)
Sickness/afflictions happen that is the result of satan trying to keep a person in bondage.
By now, you can probably guess that such a belief constitutes an unfounded claim, (lacks evidentiary basis and relies instead upon 'faith'). It is however, curious that such is considered to be "bondage" to "satan" while the same "bondage" concept must then apply to worshipping "god".
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... then, others 'praying' to "heal" someone else would be ineffectual.
...it would depend on what the afflicted one's will was, and the condition of their heart toward God and their level of faith.
It couldn't be that such a "god" is purportedly 'kind' enough to do so without such 'payment' but, apparently not.
Again, WHY should He? He's under no obligation whatsoever. He gave his only Son to be nailed to a cross for everyone, I would think that should be more than enough and it's not even appreciated by most...so why should He have to keep doing anything more?
As a ventured guess; because "satan" isn't purportedly a 'kind' fellow. If you are getting at an implied 'depends on who is worshipped' premise, the same contention applies in that there isn't any accurate way to attribute any such "healing" to "satan" or "god".
Oh, but there is. Anyone that brags/advertises about themselves having "healing powers" and that it's a "gift from God" typically either has a mental affliction or satan is working through them. How do I know? Because Believers that have healing capabilities give God all the glory and the praise-- they don't brag about themselves "being able to heal".
"It could well be ... " is a speculative attribution without substanstive basis.
I chose those words because when it comes to prayer---everyone has a different opinion. There's no "black & white" answer when it comes to "why was Mary healed and Krissy wasn't"? Only God knows...the only thing anyone else can do is "speculate".
On the contrary, there's not a shred of evidence to support a contention that such "salvation prayers" wre answered. How would you know?
I would know because it happened in my family. My aunt had a weak heart. She had three sons that had been brought up in church and all three of them were a heart-break for her. One was a drug-addict, one was in trouble all the time with the police and the third was an alcoholic. She had told us she was praying for those boys' (teenagers) salvation. She loved them and that's all she wanted was for them to re-find the Lord. She died in an abulance on the way to the hospital, it was sudden and
unexpected because even though she had a weak heart...noone thought she'd die so young. The youngest son right away started back to church and got into a program to help him get off the drugs. Within two years, the middle son starting going to a church and re-dedicated his life to the Lord. It took almost twelve years for the oldest son to go back to God, he still had a few years there where he really battled the alcohol. All three boys have said they knew she had been praying for them, they had heard her many nights praying for hours...and they wanted to see her again someday in Heaven. I know her and would think that if she were asked if she would rather come back to earth or let the boys keep their salvation, she would chose to stay in Heaven. A "healing" of a weak heart only lasts a lifetime, a salvation of her sons will last an eternity.
Firstly, there is no evidence to support the contentions that "god gave that man a brain and several warning signs". These contentions have the form of an unfounded belief since people are nominally born with brains, sans any direct attribution to a 'creator', (other than a person's parents). Secondly, doing something stupid or wise is up to the free-willed person and not some externally-posited 'deity'.
Yes, I should have known that the moment I forgot to mention that the guy could have gotten his "brain & warning signs"' from his parents, it would be pointed out. Considering how his brain "worked", yes...he probably did get that from his parents. It was his "free will" to ignore all the warning signs...God isn't going to stop anyone from making a mistake. There are consequences for being stupid. His is called "R.I.P".
Unless you happen to have an unabridged copy of such a "plan", this is an unfounded belief, (and if you do have such a copy, can you fax it to me for perusal?)
I'll refer you to Genesis and you can show me where it says that anyone or any living thing had sickness, illness, death, afflictions before Eve & Adam screwed things up. (*Also note that in the description of Heaven, the Bible says there will be NO sickness implying that any sickness does not come from God.)
By now, you can probably guess that such a belief constitutes an unfounded claim, (lacks evidentiary basis and relies instead upon 'faith'). It is however, curious that such is considered to be "bondage" to "satan" while the same "bondage" concept must then apply to worshipping "god".
lacks "evidentiary basis and relies instead upon faith"?? Huh? I don't have to use faith, I wouldn't even have to be a Believer to see that the alcoholic is in bondage, the "druggie" is in bondage, the glutton, the prostitutes, the mentally ill. the child predators/molestors, serial killers, etc. are in bondage and it sure isn't to God. God can heal people of these things. People do not get into "bondage" with these things because they were following God. Bondage to satan is just that and he won't give up any soul he's claimed as his easily. Bondage to God? No..."He whom the Son sets free---is free indeed". (John 8:36)
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[falcon9] ... then, others 'praying' to "heal" someone else would be ineffectual.
...it would depend on what the afflicted one's will was, and the condition of their heart toward God and their level of faith.
Not if they were unconscious and unaware that they were being 'prayed for'. Be that as it may, the parameters you've mentioned are too vague to assert as conditions.
[falcon9]It couldn't be that such a "god" is purportedly 'kind' enough to do so without such 'payment' but, apparently not.
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Again, WHY should He? He's under no obligation whatsoever.
Not even as a purportly 'kind and loving god', huh? Okay, then "he" would be equally under no obligation even if 'prayed to', therefore, such attempts at 'invocations' are entreaties/wish-making which are indistinguishable from not 'praying' in lack of results.
He gave his only Son to be nailed to a cross for everyone ...
This concept of 'redeeming sacrifice' is an irrational tenet of 'faith' and has no tenable meaning. It gets ascribed all sorts of religious meaning which boil down to a 'ransom of one for many', (and that itself only makes 'sense' to believers - for all others, it is devoid of reason).
Anyone that brags/advertises about themselves having "healing powers" and that it's a "gift from God" typically either has a mental affliction or satan is working through them. How do I know? Because Believers that have healing capabilities give God all the glory and the praise-- they don't brag about themselves "being able to heal".
This is merely placing the 'credit' for "healing" upon a false attribution.
Only God knows...the only thing anyone else can do is "speculate".
Thank you for concurring that the assertions made were speculative. I dissented with such speculations because they lack an evidentiary basis.
[falcon] On the contrary, there's not a shred of evidence to support a contention that such "salvation prayers" wre answered. How would you know?
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I would know because it happened in my family. My aunt had a weak heart. She had three sons that had been brought up in church and all three of them were a heart-break for her. One was a drug-addict, one was in trouble all the time with the police and the third was an alcoholic. She had told us she was praying for those boys' (teenagers) salvation. She loved them and that's all she wanted was for them to re-find the Lord. She died in an abulance on the way to the hospital, it was sudden and
unexpected because even though she had a weak heart...noone thought she'd die so young. The youngest son right away started back to church and got into a program to help him get off the drugs. Within two years, the middle son starting going to a church and re-dedicated his life to the Lord. It took almost twelve years for the oldest son to go back to God, he still had a few years there where he really battled the alcohol. All three boys have said they knew she had been praying for them, they had heard her many nights praying for hours...and they wanted to see her again someday in Heaven. I know her and would think that if she were asked if she would rather come back to earth or let the boys keep their salvation, she would chose to stay in Heaven.
In the example given, such reactions could have been more easily ascribed to 'grief' than to "salvations". Either attribution is speculative and neither can be accurately attributed as described. Doing so is making a 'faith-based' judgement call which, for those who do not believe such things, is unnecessary.
Firstly, there is no evidence to support the contentions that "god gave that man a brain and several warning signs". These contentions have the form of an unfounded belief since people are nominally born with brains, sans any direct attribution to a 'creator', (other than a person's parents). Secondly, doing something stupid or wise is up to the free-willed person and not some externally-posited 'deity'.
Yes, I should have known that the moment I forgot to mention that the guy could have gotten his "brain & warning signs"' from his parents, it would be pointed out. Considering how his brain "worked", yes...he probably did get that from his parents. It was his "free will" to ignore all the warning signs...God isn't going to stop anyone from making a mistake. There are consequences for being stupid. His is called "R.I.P".
As mentioned, doing something stupid or wise is up to the free-willed person and not some externally-posited 'deity', (for which evidence supporting such a claim is entirely lacking).
I'll refer you to Genesis ...
No thank you, the source of the reference is too dubious, vague and does not contain the individual "plan" you alluded to.
lacks "evidentiary basis and relies instead upon faith"?? Huh?
That's what can often happen when too much context is snipped in reply. That context was your assertion that illness/disease was caused by "satan", (if you would like the exact quotes, "It could very well be that that sickness was a result of disobedience to God" and "Sickness/afflictions happen that is the result of satan trying to keep a person in bondage").
I don't have to use faith, I wouldn't even have to be a Believer to see that the alcoholic is in bondage, the "druggie" is in bondage, the glutton, the prostitutes, the mentally ill. the child predators/molestors, serial killers, etc. are in bondage and it sure isn't to God.
No, it is to those 'vices'/habits and these can neither be attributed to "god" or "satan". This was was point about lacking evidentiary basis to support such claims.
God can heal people of these things.
That's a speculative claim which lacks evidence.
People do not get into "bondage" with these things because they were following God. Bondage to satan is just that and he won't give up any soul he's claimed as his easily.
There is no evidence that such afflications constitute "bondage to satan"; this being a spurious contention which, (again), lacks supportive evidence.
Bondage to God? No ...
Yes, according to your previous comments regarding "... the condition of their heart toward God and their level of faith ... ", such can be accurately termed as "bondage". {dubious source reference omitted for reasons given within this reply}
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yes falcon9, I "speculate" alot. You'd be surprised what one can learn about God from watching Him work in other's lives. You are so quick to judge and dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your line of thinking with any excuse at all...even if the excuse doesn't make much sense. Your quote:
(and that itself only makes 'sense' to believers - for all others, it is devoid of reason).
It couldn't possibly be "that all others are devoid of reason"...could it?? :dontknow:
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What sense would it really make for God to heal everyone just to have them die again from something else later?
Are you really asking this question? You don't see the point in healing those with childhood cancer, AIDS, early-onset Alzheimer's, or any other number of diseases-before-one's-time? "You're going to die anyway, so just accept an early, painful, devastating death." ?!
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Are you really asking this question? You don't see the point in healing those with childhood cancer, AIDS, early-onset Alzheimer's, or any other number of diseases-before-one's-time? "You're going to die anyway, so just accept an early, painful, devastating death." ?!
I don't see how it's not a sickening way to imagine a god and life.
I "speculate" alot. You'd be surprised what one can learn about God from watching Him work in other's lives.
When you speculate, you can attribute virtually anything to anything, so it's furthest from the best way to argue something. The reason it's sunny outside? It's because I ate a PB sandwich earlier! The reason I ate a PB sandwich earlier? I felt the presence of Allah and I felt I had to eat PB when that happened! I have all of these crazy preconcieved notions that I can say are legit just as you can say you can see god working in other's lives. It's the exact same thing.
You are so quick to judge and dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your line of thinking with any excuse at all...even if the excuse doesn't make much sense.
"There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks who have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and the frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. They are the sheep who beg to be fleeced and butchered, and who will battle fiercely to preserve their right to be victimized"
- James Randi
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I believe in the Ancien Astronaut theory. The gods are actually aliens from another world and have left us to develop our race and will eventually come back. Makes sense and bs at the same time. If you look at the ancient stories, there are sky beings and in this theory, they are aliens.
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What sense would it really make for God to heal everyone just to have them die again from something else later?
Are you really asking this question? You don't see the point in healing those with childhood cancer, AIDS, early-onset Alzheimer's, or any other number of diseases-before-one's-time? "You're going to die anyway, so just accept an early, painful, devastating death." ?!
No, I don't see the point. Those children that die from childhood cancer automatically go to Heaven when they die...whereas they probably wouldn't were they to grow up and have the world harden their hearts against God. It's when many people are facing an early, painful, devasting death that they seek God, that they yearn to know what awaits them after this life. As for the pain & suffering, every person will die--it's just a matter of when and how. When one has things right with God, it doesn't matter how much pain & suffering they have to endure because once they are in Heaven---they won't ever feel any pain again.
Jesus died a more painful & horrible death than anyone with cancer, aids, Alzheimer's and any other diseases that I can think of---so have many other people that have been tortured & killed (past & present). Certainly one can't appreciate the "circle of life" without realizing death, no matter how it happens, is a BIG part of that.
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"There exists in society a very special class of persons that I have always referred to as the Believers. These are folks who have chosen to accept a certain religion, philosophy, theory, idea or notion and cling to that belief regardless of any evidence that might, for anyone else, bring it into doubt. They are the ones who encourage and support the fanatics and the frauds of any given age. No amount of evidence, no matter how strong, will bring them any enlightenment. They are the sheep who beg to be fleeced and butchered, and who will battle fiercely to preserve their right to be victimized"
- James Randi
Matthew 5:10-12 (NKJV) Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
-Jesus
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yes falcon9, I "speculate" alot. You'd be surprised what one can learn about God from watching Him work in other's lives.
You'd also be surprised at how many inaccurate speculations occur due to faulty, (or no), reasoning involved. Randomly attributing various occurrances to various "gods & goddesses" was what ancient peoples used to due, (e.g., lightning was from Thor, Hapi was a fertility deity, etc.). These superstitious beliefs were attempts to explain the unexplainable and the same applies to other religious beliefs when one speculates using 'faith' instead of reasoning.
You are so quick to judge and dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your line of thinking ...
It isn't as "quick" as you may speculate it to be. It's taken years, decades in some instances, for me to hone such a philosophical foundational method of reason. Irrationality has not lead to the expansion and deepening of knowledge; reason has.
with any excuse at all...even if the excuse doesn't make much sense.
What "excuse" has been employed by logical dissenting arguements? On the other hand, I've seen numerous 'justifications' for using illogical "excuses" for avoiding reasoning, ('faith' being comparatively 'easier' on the mind than reasoning?).
Your quote: (and that itself only makes 'sense' to believers - for all others, it is devoid of reason).
It couldn't possibly be "that all others are devoid of reason"...could it?? :dontknow:
It is a misnomer to apply the term "sense" to a process which lacks reasoning, (such as 'faith').
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Those children that die from childhood cancer automatically go to Heaven when they die...whereas they probably wouldn't were they to grow up and have the world harden their hearts against God. It's when many people are facing an early, painful, devasting death that they seek God, that they yearn to know what awaits them after this life. As for the pain & suffering, every person will die--it's just a matter of when and how. When one has things right with God, it doesn't matter how much pain & suffering they have to endure because once they are in Heaven---they won't ever feel any pain again.
The amount of contrived speculation here is just ludicrous.
Jesus died a more painful & horrible death than anyone with cancer, aids, Alzheimer's and any other diseases that I can think of
Yes. Perhaps you should research what the churches did to people in the Dark Ages as it was a mixture of torture and disease. It really makes one wonder-- If it wasn't for the belief in random popular gods, would we be closer to a utopian world? Just removing the Dark Ages alone would probably do wonders.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Well then, according to history, Christians will certainly not be going to heaven as they have (for the majority of the religion's popularity) been the dangerous and delusional persecutors. Even today. When you contest a bible verse (from a heroic archaetype that cannot even be trusted for coining that quote) against a man (who definitely lives today) who devotes his life to educating people of fraudulent behavior all around the world, something is very very wrong with your reasoning skills. A poisoned mind resistant to genuine enlightened reasoning is a pointless thing to argue with.
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Those children that die from childhood cancer automatically go to Heaven when they die...
Such a belief has no basis in anything other than 'faith'. Why not leave newborns out alone in the woods so that they can die and "automatically go to heaven"? Meanwhile, among the living, others endeavor to find medical solutions to illnesses.
whereas they probably wouldn't were they to grow up and have the world harden their hearts against God.
No doubt this is why some xtian cults have forced kids to "drink the koolaid" before "the world hardens their hearts" however, this type of opting-out is frowned upon by others.
It's when many people are facing an early, painful, devasting death that they seek God, that they yearn to know what awaits them after this life. As for the pain & suffering, every person will die--it's just a matter of when and how. When one has things right with God, it doesn't matter how much pain & suffering they have to endure because once they are in Heaven---they won't ever feel any pain again.
Such beliefs have no basis in anything other than 'faith' and 'faith' has no basis at all. These constitute empty speculations because their foundations rest in irrational religious speculations and false attributions rather than arising from a basis of evidence.
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Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Well then, according to history, Christians will certainly not be going to heaven.
Further, dissenting arguments do not constitute 'persecution' unless the claimaint is shooting for pseudo-martyrdom.
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Further, dissenting arguments do not constitute 'persecution' unless the claimaint is shooting for pseudo-martyrdom.
And obviously they are trying to play the victim card. Thus the fake "war on religion" in america.
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Further, dissenting arguments do not constitute 'persecution' unless the claimaint is shooting for pseudo-martyrdom.
And obviously they are trying to play the victim card. Thus the fake "war on religion" in america.
In a strange twist, many of those religious adherents who selectively 'oppose' reason do not apply such irrationality to many other aspects of their lives, (while others may do so, to the extent of nearly complete irrationality). Supposedly, religionists out-number non-religionists so, how is it that the 'minority' is "persecuting" the 'majority'?
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Matthew 5:10-12 (NKJV) Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
-Jesus
[/quote]
you do realize that this was written by man don't you..
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Matthew 5:10-12 (NKJV) Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. "Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
-Jesus
you do realize that this was written by man don't you..
Not only that, attempts at 'justifying' such as "inspired by god" are without substantive basis. There is no evidence for such a belief, (which is why they constitute 'faith-based' speculations). This is also why makes such references to a dubious source are not a basis for rational argument. They do, however, seem to form a basis for irrational arguing.
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Why not leave newborns out alone in the woods so that they can die and "automatically go to heaven"?
Didn't you know that's MURDER? ???
No doubt this is why some xtian cults have forced kids to "drink the koolaid" before "the world hardens their hearts" however, this type of opting-out is frowned upon by others.
I don't belong to a "xtian cult" and have expressed my opinions on those that follow "christian" cults on another thread awhile ago.
You'd also be surprised at how many inaccurate speculations occur due to faulty, (or no), reasoning involved.
You DON'T think you "speculate" at all? Newsflash: Your personal beliefs are based more on speculation than fact if you can't prove God doesn't exist. If you don't have any real "facts"--your idea of "faulty reasoning" doesn't apply to someone just because their beliefs aren't in agreement with yours. ;)
Further, dissenting arguments do not constitute 'persecution' unless the claimaint is shooting for pseudo-martyrdom.
I never said that it did. You posted a quote you thought was "clever" and I posted a better one by Jesus Himself. There are people from all "faiths/religions" and even those that have no faith/religion that have been persecuted/martyred for their "cause", not just "Christians". (BTW, abdyer2001-- the Bible might have been written by man but they were INSPIRED by God and the words Jesus spoke Himself are in "red ink"...just a little FYI. ;)) I'm a Believer, you've stated that you are not---we're SUPPOSED to have "dissenting arguments", we're both on different paths.
Those that seek the Truth will find it.
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[out of context stuff snipped out because responses were out of context]
You DON'T think you "speculate" at all?
Of course I speculate at times and those instances consist of using reasoning based upon the extent of available evidence, (as opposed to random faith-based beliefs).
Newsflash: Your personal beliefs are based more on speculation than fact if you can't prove God doesn't exist.
News Update: It is incumbent upon the believer-claimaint to provide evidence that something exists, not upon a non-believer to provide evidence that something doesn't. This is because it is irrational to expect evidence of everything or anything which _doesn't_ exist.
Your idea of "faulty reasoning" doesn't apply to someone just because their beliefs aren't in agreement with yours ...
That's correct; someone else's faulty reasoning has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with their conclusions unless they've arrived at those conclusions irrationally. If the basis of their 'reasoning', (or lack thereof), is faulty, their conclusions are faulty.
...if you don't have any real facts. ;)
It remains possible to show, (in context; not out of context), factual evidence of faulty 'reasoning'. This works both ways; or can, if all parties engage in reasoning, (rather than specious declarations/claims which are devoid of evidence).
Further, dissenting arguments do not constitute 'persecution' unless the claimaint is shooting for pseudo-martyrdom.
I never said that it did. You posted a quote you thought was "clever" and I posted a better one by Jesus Himself.
In the context of the foregoing discussion in this thread, the quote you bible-thumped was from "Falconer02". Secondly, quoted somebody in some dubious text and then claiming that these are the words of "jesus himself" is not rational speculation, (nor was it "a better one").
There are people from all "faiths/religions" and even those that have no faith/religion that have been persecuted/martyred for their "cause", not just "Christians".
True however, can you cite an instance of the minority non-xtians "persecuting" xtians?
(BTW, abdyer2001-- the Bible might have been written by man but they were INSPIRED by God
There is no evidence to support the claim that "the Bible might have been written by man but they were INSPIRED by God" therefore, it is a specious claim without merit.
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You can lead a horse to water however, if you hold the horse's head under, that horse will drown.
Based on that last post, all evidence says You're drowning...
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You can lead a horse to water however, if you hold the horse's head under, that horse will drown.
Based on that last post, all evidence says You're drowning...
Your 'reasoning', (or lack thereof), is faulty. I'm not drowning in your illogic; reasoning provides my breathing apparatus while you believe that 'faith' provides yours. That means that you're figuratively holding your breath while I'm proceding swimmingly.
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You can lead a horse to water however, if you hold the horse's head under, that horse will drown.
Based on that last post, all evidence says You're drowning...
Your 'reasoning', (or lack thereof), is faulty. I'm not drowning in your illogic; reasoning provides my breathing apparatus while you believe that 'faith' provides yours. That means that you're figuratively holding your breath while I'm proceding swimmingly.
:notworthy: You're "King of Denial"...dude! :)
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You can lead a horse to water however, if you hold the horse's head under, that horse will drown.
Based on that last post, all evidence says You're drowning...
Your 'reasoning', (or lack thereof), is faulty. I'm not drowning in your illogic; reasoning provides my breathing apparatus while you believe that 'faith' provides yours. That means that you're figuratively holding your breath while I'm proceding swimmingly.
:notworthy: You're "King of Denial"...dude! :)
Since there has been no evidence presented to support either your first contention, nor this one, ("king of denial"), these represent specious claims. What specific alleged "evidence" are you referring to? Vague allegations are empty ones.
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You can lead a horse to water however, if you hold the horse's head under, that horse will drown.
Based on that last post, all evidence says You're drowning...
If the bible were inspired by god, then why does it continue to be reinterpreted and rewritten by man when someone decides that thier interpretation is better.. ( king james, old testament,new testament) really lets just stick with one..
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If the bible were inspired by god, then why does it continue to be reinterpreted and rewritten by man when someone decides that thier interpretation is better.. ( king james, old testament,new testament) really lets just stick with one..
A common vague justification for all those reinterpretations and translation errors is that those too were "inspired". Naturally, there's no evidence to support such claims but, that doesn't seem to stop them from being speciously made.