I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.
Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.
If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.
You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc
But, what's wrong with having hope?
QuoteYou can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc
True, but generally the person believing in such things has no proof of the god(s) existing. It's a logical fallacy-- it's like me saying I have the power to fly like Superman and when you say you don't believe me, I say it's up to you to prove I don't. The burden of proof is always on the person claiming they have something.QuoteBut, what's wrong with having hope?
Research faith healers. They're snake-oil salesmen.
Okay. Neither side can really prove it. They're both saying the other is wrong, but neither can offer valid, solid proof for their statements/opinions/beliefs.
Nothing is wrong with hope as long as that person doesn't allow themselves to get scammed by people like faith healers (I don't see why you pay someone for something you could probably do yourself, since faith healing involves prayer). It is just the placebo effect. If that makes people feel better, then why not? You'd probably have to be pretty desperate to go to a faith healer though.
Im sorry you feel this way. There are many things on this earth that prove God is VERY REAL. I pitty you and hope you one day come to the true light.You will certainly find out the minute you die..
You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.
:crybaby2: :crybaby2: :crybaby2: :fish: :fish: Im sorry you feel this way. There are many things on this earth that prove God is VERY REAL. I pitty you and hope you one day come to the true light.You will certainly find out the minute you die..
I can defiantly prove the god of the Bible not only doesn't exist, but cannot possibly exist. Setting aside all the logical fallacies the christian bible presents, it's pretty obvious it was written by humans who where not divinely inspired. All historical evidence points to a long line of writers and editors of the bible. If god was so perfect, why does his book need 100's of revised editions?
Again, though, if someone wishes to practice prayer then they should be allowed to if they wish. I don't think is should be made illegal anything like that (I am an avid supporter of freedom of speech, and am frivolously against any form of censorship.), but if someone begins to reach to others and tell them that prayer is the only way to achieve happiness (and this is what I see a lot of) then that's where my line has to be drawn and where my criticisms really begin.
QuoteI'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.
OMG U CANT PROOF THAT SO U CANT SAY THATQuotePraying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I forget who said this- "A thousand people can pray for something to be fixed, but it only takes 1 to get up off of their knees and fix it." The only thing I think you've left out here is that praying can make people feel good. It can act as a placebo effect and get them in high spirits when everything else in or around them is in bad condition. And who knows? Maybe in the future we'll find some quantum force that binds us all together (I hold no belief in this-- just a speculative idea)! I really have no problem with those situations if it's truly helping the person personally. It's when faith healers try to cash in on this idea or when people arrogantly speak of it as truth and are condescending of their apparent god-talking super-power. Y'know. Religion.QuoteIf god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.
The whole concept of praying to the Abrahamic god presents numerous logical problems. On one hand, praying and asking the god to make bad things go away would interfere with there being a "divine plan" because the believer is asking god to change something in the plan. If it's that simple and everyone's praying for this god to change things in their favor, there can't be a set plan. In that sense, praying is pointless if one believes there is a divine plan. If one believes god tilts things in their favor, there is no set course and thus the whole concept of a divine plan contradicts the religions teachings. However if one prays after bad things happen ("it's part of god's plan") thanking god for sparing them or opening their eyes to something after a bad experience, they're just praising the god's malevolence. Anyone (believer or not) has life-altering experiences. Good or bad, it's silly (and sometimes dangerous) to equate the experiences to a defined god.
You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.
I can defiantly prove the god of the Bible not only doesn't exist, but cannot possibly exist. Setting aside all the logical fallacies the christian bible presents, it's pretty obvious it was written by humans who where not divinely inspired. All historical evidence points to a long line of writers and editors of the bible. If god was so perfect, why does his book need 100's of revised editions?
I would argue that telling someone they should pray instead of giving them real-world advice that would actually improve their situation is damaging. Pray, in its totality, harms society as a whole rather than helps society. We need to learn to stop relying on false hope, and start relying on ourselves. Science is our attempt to become more self reliant, and it has done a lot so far. Prayer has no place in our modern society, it's a ritual that dates back to the stone age and it should be only remembered as a historical fact rather than a modern day practice.
Again, though, if someone wishes to practice prayer then they should be allowed to if they wish. I don't think is should be made illegal anything like that (I am an avid supporter of freedom of speech, and am frivolously against any form of censorship.), but if someone begins to reach to others and tell them that prayer is the only way to achieve happiness (and this is what I see a lot of) then that's where my line has to be drawn and where my criticisms really begin.
You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.
I can defiantly prove the god of the Bible not only doesn't exist, but cannot possibly exist. Setting aside all the logical fallacies the christian bible presents, it's pretty obvious it was written by humans who where not divinely inspired. All historical evidence points to a long line of writers and editors of the bible. If god was so perfect, why does his book need 100's of revised editions?
I would argue that telling someone they should pray instead of giving them real-world advice that would actually improve their situation is damaging. Pray, in its totality, harms society as a whole rather than helps society. We need to learn to stop relying on false hope, and start relying on ourselves. Science is our attempt to become more self reliant, and it has done a lot so far. Prayer has no place in our modern society, it's a ritual that dates back to the stone age and it should be only remembered as a historical fact rather than a modern day practice.
Again, though, if someone wishes to practice prayer then they should be allowed to if they wish. I don't think is should be made illegal anything like that (I am an avid supporter of freedom of speech, and am frivolously against any form of censorship.), but if someone begins to reach to others and tell them that prayer is the only way to achieve happiness (and this is what I see a lot of) then that's where my line has to be drawn and where my criticisms really begin.
While it's true that the Bible has been revised many times and things have been taken out, that still isn't enough evidence to conclude that the god of the Bible doesn't exist. You still can't prove if the actions in the Bible happened or not (unless you can time travel or something). Even though it was written by humans, you can't say that they lied/made it all up just because they were not divinely inspired. I agree with your statements about science. Honestly, if we hadn't pursued science we'd all be stuck in the stone age and there probably wouldn't be any advancements.
Yes, I totally understand what you mean. People who follow a certain religion/belief system tend to believe that their way is right and everything else isn't. It's offensive to others, but they're taught that their way is the right way and that it's their duty to tell others that it is.
praying works only for those who believe.
Although I cannot get physical evidence (like a picture), we can investigate what evidence human beings left behind and make connections. We can use the evidence of different historians to determine the truth, for example. If a good enough number of historians left any indication that the miracles of Jesus happened (which wouldn't be out of the question to ask of said historians) outside of the bible then that's something to go on. No such indication exist. Therefore, why should we believe the miracles in the bible actually happened? Although I cannot disprove these things didn't happen, I also cannot disprove magical rainbow colored flying unicorns destroyed Atlantis and created all of humanity. The reason it isn't logically sound to ask someone to disprove something someone else is saying is real (other than being an inherent fallacy) has to do with prudence. If we are expected to disprove non-reality then we'll be here until the end of time.
Also, if those in the bible where not divinely inspired then how can the bible be the "word of god?" that is so often attributed too.
Although I cannot get physical evidence (like a picture), we can investigate what evidence human beings left behind and make connections. We can use the evidence of different historians to determine the truth, for example. If a good enough number of historians left any indication that the miracles of Jesus happened (which wouldn't be out of the question to ask of said historians) outside of the bible then that's something to go on. No such indication exist. Therefore, why should we believe the miracles in the bible actually happened? Although I cannot disprove these things didn't happen, I also cannot disprove magical rainbow colored flying unicorns destroyed Atlantis and created all of humanity. The reason it isn't logically sound to ask someone to disprove something someone else is saying is real (other than being an inherent fallacy) has to do with prudence. If we are expected to disprove non-reality then we'll be here until the end of time.
Also, if those in the bible where not divinely inspired then how can the bible be the "word of god?" that is so often attributed too.
My whole point is, no one can prove anything about this topic. It will just keep going in circles and nothing will be solved unless someone finds physical, legit evidence supporting their views.
I think people are generally uninformed/misinformed about who wrote the Bible and etc. Some are misled and think it is the exact word of god and it actually isn't. The Bible is basically a collection of writings by different authors to convey the message of god (not words that said god literally spoke). It contains writings by people who were recalling an event (if it's true), heard the content from someone else/word of mouth, and etc.
While it's true that the Bible has been revised many times and things have been taken out, that still isn't enough evidence to conclude that the god of the Bible doesn't exist. You still can't prove if the actions in the Bible happened or not
If a person believes in something that makes them feel better and doesn't hurt others why does it matter if it isn't true. Sometimes our experience of the world can be improved by our beliefs. If I really thought about all the terrible things that are happening every day all over the world so many of which are out of our control it would cause even the most sane person to go insane or worse. If some people feel that prayer improves their life and the life of others then why stop or persuade them otherwise.Because prayer isn't a substitute for the real thing. Tricking yourself into feeling better by making you think you're making a difference by praying can never replaced actually doing something helpful and feeling good for it. Not only is real accomplishment hard to replaced, it also helps society a lot more than prayer does. For example:
In that case, okay.QuoteWhile it's true that the Bible has been revised many times and things have been taken out, that still isn't enough evidence to conclude that the god of the Bible doesn't exist. You still can't prove if the actions in the Bible happened or not
Of course you can. Rationally atleast. The flood myth? Every single shred of evidence in history says it did not happen. The amount of co2 being rained upon the earth would have killed every mammal within minutes. Every creationist argument has been refuted by basic science. Societies (such as ancient asian and indian cultures) existed w/o any mention of a flood destroying everything (though there are random flood myths throughout many cultures, they all seem to have been created at separate times-- same with earthquake myths, tornados, etc.).
My whole point is the burden of proof is put on the religious to prove the claims made by their religion. If they cannot do this, we must assume these claims are false until such evidence presents itself. This is how the scientific method works. We don't just assume something can be true (or even possibly true) just because someone may say so and that evidence might exist. The scientific method doesn't even deal with absolutes at all, since evidence can present itself contrary to prior conclusions.Point understood. Then, your claims can also be assumed as false until proven. The religious don't have proof because some of their claims are hard to prove to be false or true. Your claims are the same. Most is just assumed.
In that case, okay.QuoteWhile it's true that the Bible has been revised many times and things have been taken out, that still isn't enough evidence to conclude that the god of the Bible doesn't exist. You still can't prove if the actions in the Bible happened or not
Of course you can. Rationally atleast. The flood myth? Every single shred of evidence in history says it did not happen. The amount of co2 being rained upon the earth would have killed every mammal within minutes. Every creationist argument has been refuted by basic science. Societies (such as ancient asian and indian cultures) existed w/o any mention of a flood destroying everything (though there are random flood myths throughout many cultures, they all seem to have been created at separate times-- same with earthquake myths, tornados, etc.).QuoteMy whole point is the burden of proof is put on the religious to prove the claims made by their religion. If (they cannot do this, we must assume these claims are false until such evidence presents itself. This is how the scientific method works. We don't just assume something can be true (or even possibly true) just because someone may say so and that evidence might exist. The scientific method doesn't even deal with absolutes at all, since evidence can present itself contrary to prior conclusions.Point understood. Then, your claims can also be assumed as false until proven. The religious don't have proof because some of their claims are hard to prove to be false or true. Your claims are the same. Most is just assumed.
I'm aware that the Bible includes myths. They're pretty similar to myths from others (Greek mythology, Sumerian creation myth, & etc). Just wondering, but have either of you even read at least some of the Bible?
Im aware that the Bible includes myths. They're pretty similar to myths from others (Greek mythology, Sumerian creation myth, & etc). Just wondering, but have either of you even read at least some of the Bible?
To make sure you aren't just judging something you don't know anything about.QuoteIm aware that the Bible includes myths. They're pretty similar to myths from others (Greek mythology, Sumerian creation myth, & etc). Just wondering, but have either of you even read at least some of the Bible?
A have read the majority of the OT and a little of the "feel-good parts" of the NT (Matt, Mark, Luke, John). Beyond that, I've peppered my knowledge with random studies on specific chapters and such. I do not consider myself a guru on it, but reading it was a major influence on me realizing it was bogus and steering away from the belief system. Why do you ask?
To make sure you aren't just judging something you don't know anything about
My God is real, whether you say so or not. Just because you say my God is not real, does not make your opinion the law of the land.
Don't be sorry for giving your own opinion. God isn't real for you - that's pretty obvious. So much so that you make a thread speaking of God not being real.
My God is real, whether you say so or not. Just because you say my God is not real, does not make your opinion the law of the land.
If it makes you feel comforted and better to shout to the forum that God is not real, then I hope this thread has made you feel that way. But it does not prove my God is not real to me. Your post was most interesting, though.
1. I did not say you were "yelling" at me. You do this quite frequently when it's obvious no one is yelling. "Shouting" to the forum is a figure of speech - sorry you didn't realize or chose to not realize the difference.Don't be sorry for giving your own opinion. God isn't real for you - that's pretty obvious. So much so that you make a thread speaking of God not being real.
My God is real, whether you say so or not. Just because you say my God is not real, does not make your opinion the law of the land.
If it makes you feel comforted and better to shout to the forum that God is not real, then I hope this thread has made you feel that way. But it does not prove my God is not real to me. Your post was most interesting, though.
I find it quite humorous to think that when an atheist shares his or her opinion to the religious, they automatically assume this person is yelling at them. I'm not implying you're the only one doing this, I have had it come across to me on several occasions. I'm not "shouting' to the the forum, I'm simply expressing my viewpoint in one collectible thread so that I'm not responding to 5 different threads on this very topic.
I also find it strange that you perceive my opinion as an attempt to change the "law of the land" when religion was the law of the land for a long time. The law of the land in modern times is that we are allowed to have varying opinions on the matter of religion. Nothing I said implied I wanted to change that.
I don't want to use the law to change people's view on religion because I don't believe in force and coercion. If someone willingly reads my post and comes to the logical conclusion that religion is made up, then that's great and no force need to be applied. In fact, when I "covert" someone in this manner I am being a lot less forceful than when a christian (or other such similar religion) converts a non-believer because the tactic that is usually applied is coercion ie: "You're going to Hell if you don't believe what I say."
QuoteTo make sure you aren't just judging something you don't know anything about
Fair enough.QuoteMy God is real, whether you say so or not. Just because you say my God is not real, does not make your opinion the law of the land.
Believe what you want to believe! Flackle and I never stated that people MUST think the way we do. We're just stating the obvious. The logical and rational conclusion will continue to say that this god and the practices are both fake.
That's fine - your "obvious" is what you go by and with. That is not my "obvious" that I go by.
While yours is logical and rational to you, mine is to me.
It doesn't matter whether you agree with my "illogical/irrational" way of your seeing my belief - it's not your choice to make for me. You apparently live by your choice just fine; as do I by mine.
You are entitled to your own opinion but NOT your own facts.
This just goes to show what a great country this is. We can discuss/fight/argue over whether there is a God or not. We are allowed to believe or not.
It is your right to not believe and I respect your beliefs, all I ask is you respect my beliefs also.
I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.I have one word that pretty much says what it means: whatever! case closed!
With the massive influx of prayer-related threads as of late, I thought it would be most prudent to just make a thread to cover my overall dissenting viewpoint.
Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.
If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.
If you want to pray in your own house to make yourself feel better, that's fine. I don't support this action, but I'll leave you alone to do as you wish. When you start to tell others to pray instead of (or when they can be doing) doing something actually useful, then it becomes a problem and it needs to stop.
This just goes to show what a great country this is. We can discuss/fight/argue over whether there is a God or not. We are allowed to believe or not. I believe in God, not because I'm forced to, but because I choose to. I look around and see all the wonderful things He has created, the trees, the flowers, the animals, and yes, you and me. In my heart I know there is a God and he loves ALL of us (even you, you who have rejected him). It is your right to not believe and I respect your beliefs, all I ask is you respect my beliefs also.Thank you for saying that so well. Some give respect back and forth, and that's what it's all about. It's sad when some claim to give respect, but really don't, by the comments implied towards irrationality and being illogical, when claiming to know the Lord. Our decisions in our personal lives do not affect others' choices in here, yet there seems to be great concern to point out irrationality - thereby showing a bit of their own irrationality in being overly-concerned about what someone chooses to believe (in their own personal lives.)
Once again, throwing out there misleading information, without including the facts of the situations at hand, including the reasons, background of, events leading up to and beyond, disobedience/obedience of others, etc.QuoteYou are entitled to your own opinion but NOT your own facts.
Thank you for summing up my previous overly-worded post!QuoteThis just goes to show what a great country this is. We can discuss/fight/argue over whether there is a God or not. We are allowed to believe or not.
Agreed.QuoteIt is your right to not believe and I respect your beliefs, all I ask is you respect my beliefs also.
Asking people to respecting things that are not worthy of respect is what gets this country in trouble. That god you say you know in your heart exists and he loves us all? He condones slavery and human sacrifice. He has committed genocide. If you're christian, I highly recommend looking in to the atrocities and the crimes against humanity created by your beliefs. The word "tolerate" makes a whole lot more sense than the word "respect" here.
We can discuss this until the end of time. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I will RESPECT (not tolerate) yours, and I ask the same of you.
You really believe that hogwash you just got through spewing? If it weren't for God, you wouldn't be here. While you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, I believe if anyone needs prayer, you do. My question is, what did God do for you to put that out? I know that God is an ever-loving presence in my life, and maybe He didn't answer your prayer in a timely fashion, but He is right on time. Shocked Huh? Shocked Huh?
We can discuss this until the end of time. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I will RESPECT (not tolerate) yours, and I ask the same of you.
If you believe there is no God, then you do not believe any of the spouted mistruths you are putting out here.
this means, in actuality, lies are being spread about something you don't believe in or about, which mean those "lies" never took place, according to your interpretation of thinking.
Researching the history of the events, understanding the facts and information, what happened, and why it happened, is preferable to just spouting half-lies and half-truths about something you know nothing about and claim to disbelieve. Contradicting yourself gets you nowhere.
I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.I am glad that you are not going to force your feelings about prayer on anyone. It has been a proven fact that doctors see changes in patients who do pray and their loved ones who pray for them while they are in comas. Modern medicine is not to have cured these patients and the doctors will say It was not anything I did. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you have yours. Believers also have their rights to express their convictions, so I am sure that God will sort it all out in the end.
With the massive influx of prayer-related threads as of late, I thought it would be most prudent to just make a thread to cover my overall dissenting viewpoint.
Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.
If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.
If you want to pray in your own house to make yourself feel better, that's fine. I don't support this action, but I'll leave you alone to do as you wish. When you start to tell others to pray instead of (or when they can be doing) doing something actually useful, then it becomes a problem and it needs to stop.
1. I did not say you were "yelling" at me. You do this quite frequently when it's obvious no one is yelling. "Shouting" to the forum is a figure of speech - sorry you didn't realize or chose to not realize the difference.I never yell at anyone. Rarely do I use all caps, and only use them in points of emphasis. Sorry I read your words literally, I suppose that's just a bad habit of mine. From now on I'll try harder to differentiate when you're being literal or being figurative.
2. You commented that you were sorry, God is not real. Your opinion. I'm saying back there is no need to apologize for your "opinion," but that to me, God is real. My opinion and belief on the matter, based on things evidenced in my own personal life, others' lives, testimonies, God's Word, amongst other things. You don't have to believe that - I'm not coercing anyone to do so, especially you, at this point and time.I will state this as clearly as I possibly can: "Personal experience does not provide sufficient evidence for us to actually believe a divine being actually exist." Its perfectly reasonable to ask for better evidence when faced with something as extraordinary as a divine being. Plus, I never in any of my post suggesting that you coerce people. My qualm with religion isn't based just on you, it's based on the entirety of the faith and it's people. My personal experience is that I have been subjected to coercion on many occasions by Christians in the past. In this case, personal experience is adequate evidence because what I claim is not extraordinary.
3. You do "appear" to contradict yourself. You say you "don't want to use the law to change people's view on religion because I don't believe in force and coercion. If someone willingly reads my post and comes to the logical conclusion that religion is made up, then that's great and no force need to be applied." Yet - you also say, "I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.; Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. "Those two statements do not contradict one another. I can see why you think my post is an attack against religion, but I am specifically targeting prayer. In fact, if you have any ability to reason you'd realize that the intention of your religion isn't to be-able to solve all your problems by praying to god and hope he fixes everything, but that seems to be the general consensus of many of its followers.
A. You "seem" to be trying to "coerce" someone away from making their own personal research and decision with stating your opinion as "implied fact." You have no proof of what you were saying to be true, anyway, since you do not claim to know God personally, so you therefore have no "conversation/answers" within your "no prayer" personal life.I don't think you understand what coercion is. Coercion is using force and intimidation (which is normally done by threatening others). Coercion cannot happen accidentally, as coercion has to do with intent as much as it does with the result of that intent. Again, in order to properly debate you have to state your opinion as "implied fact".
B. Those who do pray, have been provided answers, whether a direct "no," a "yes," or a maybe not/maybe later. Usually, with any of these, a believer can determine, if not now, then later, why the answers came to what they were at the time.Actually, they think they are provided answers. They don't realize these people are finding answers in things that happen as a result of just them happening. Also, just because some people think they are provided answers doesn't qualify as strong enough evidence to point to the existence of god and the effectiveness of prayer.
C. Regarding your example of prayer as opposed to fund raising efforts/charities to help find a cure for cancer: Believers can, do, and will pray for the cancer victims, families, friends, doctors, nurses - everyone involved, including the scientists working on trying to find a cure. However, while that's all some people may feel they can do to help in whatever way they can, there are many, believers or not, who also get out there and donate time and money, and help raise funds for the hopeful cures, food, clothing, hospital stays, meds, and/or whatever they can do to help. We have at least 3 young children just in our small town who are struggling even now with cancer. It's wonderful and amazing how much support, monetary, prayer, and comfort - are being given and offered by most of the citizens of our town - both believers and disbelievers. The point is, they are all working together to help try and do something; anything at all, to give support, care, concern, and love.So at best prayer has little to no effect on whether someone donates or gives to charity (someone who is unable to actually donate time or money will be unable to do so regardless of prayer). At worse it is used as a substitute (someone prays instead of actually helping because they think prayer is enough). Each person is different, but from what I can tell the overall affects of prayer do little to help and may in fact cause harm.
D. My point, is that just because some people pray for needs like cancer, does not mean they sit on their duffs and do nothing. Some may - but most do not; blame for doing "nothing" can actually be applied towards anyone, believer or not, doing nothing to help - yet vocally demanding everyone else needs to be helping.Exactly, some may. Even if only 1% of all those who pray instead of actually helping someone, then decides to help someone because they no longer pray is reason enough to get rid of the idea of prayer. Also remember, prayer is not an effective means of obtaining happiness, so I don't use that in the equation in determining the usefulness of prayer.
E. Prayer is powerful - for believers who know this to be true - and becomes a great and personal way of a believer's life. And most believers I know do not and will not try and "coerce" others to pray when it's something others do not wish to do. That point can be made for both sides - everyone willingly chooses what to or what not to believe in their lives, and should not be chided or belittled for doing so.So... The truth doesn't matter as long as everyone is happy? Sorry, I don't subscribe to the notion of blissful ignorance. I'd rather live in a world where we actually solve problems with practical and logical solutions.
This just goes to show what a great country this is. We can discuss/fight/argue over whether there is a God or not. We are allowed to believe or not. I believe in God, not because I'm forced to, but because I choose to. I look around and see all the wonderful things He has created, the trees, the flowers, the animals, and yes, you and me. In my heart I know there is a God and he loves ALL of us (even you, you who have rejected him). It is your right to not believe and I respect your beliefs, all I ask is you respect my beliefs also.Thank you for saying that so well. Some give respect back and forth, and that's what it's all about. It's sad when some claim to give respect, but really don't, by the comments implied towards irrationality and being illogical, when claiming to know the Lord. Our decisions in our personal lives do not affect others' choices in here, yet there seems to be great concern to point out irrationality - thereby showing a bit of their own irrationality in being overly-concerned about what someone chooses to believe (in their own personal lives.)
Once again, throwing out there misleading information, without including the facts of the situations at hand, including the reasons, background of, events leading up to and beyond, disobedience/obedience of others, etc.Can you be a bit more specific? It's obvious you don't have the same idea of history that we do.
If you believe there is no God, then you do not believe any of the spouted mistruths you are putting out here. This means, in actuality, lies are being spread about something you don't believe in or about, which mean those "lies" never took place, according to your interpretation of thinking.
Researching the history of the events, understanding the facts and information, what happened, and why it happened, is preferable to just spouting half-lies and half-truths about something you know nothing about and claim to disbelieve. Contradicting yourself gets you nowhere.
We can discuss this until the end of time. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I will RESPECT (not tolerate) yours, and I ask the same of you.
Exactly! Some have a difficult time understanding that concept, though. Yet, many times, believers are the ones being accused of coercing or pushing their beliefs, when actually, it's not but a few over-zealous people who do so. Just as there are over-zealous disbelievers and/or atheists who have a hard time understanding that everyone, believers or not, has the freedom of religion or no religion, and do not have to answer for what and why they believe.
I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.I am glad that you are not going to force your feelings about prayer on anyone. It has been a proven fact that doctors see changes in patients who do pray and their loved ones who pray for them while they are in comas. Modern medicine is not to have cured these patients and the doctors will say It was not anything I did. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you have yours. Believers also have their rights to express their convictions, so I am sure that God will sort it all out in the end.
With the massive influx of prayer-related threads as of late, I thought it would be most prudent to just make a thread to cover my overall dissenting viewpoint.
Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.
If god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.
If you want to pray in your own house to make yourself feel better, that's fine. I don't support this action, but I'll leave you alone to do as you wish. When you start to tell others to pray instead of (or when they can be doing) doing something actually useful, then it becomes a problem and it needs to stop.
BMaston12
You don't choose to believe in prayer for whatever reason you may have. I believe that praying to God and His son, Jesus Christ, shows that you are thankful to them for whatever you are blessed with. Apparently, Satan must be the guidance in your life for you to believe that praying is not helpful. I pray because it gives me hope that better things are in my grasp. While it is true that some luck may be up to you, I believe if it weren't for Him, you wouldn't have what you have right now. Good luck to you and I hope that whatever He gave you, He don't see you as being ungrateful and take it away. ??? :o ???
Apparently, Satan must be the guidance in your life for you to believe that praying is not helpful.
You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance." Nor am I. I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions. No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever. Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.1. I did not say you were "yelling" at me. You do this quite frequently when it's obvious no one is yelling. "Shouting" to the forum is a figure of speech - sorry you didn't realize or chose to not realize the difference.I never yell at anyone. Rarely do I use all caps, and only use them in points of emphasis. Sorry I read your words literally, I suppose that's just a bad habit of mine. From now on I'll try harder to differentiate when you're being literal or being figurative.Quote2. You commented that you were sorry, God is not real. Your opinion. I'm saying back there is no need to apologize for your "opinion," but that to me, God is real. My opinion and belief on the matter, based on things evidenced in my own personal life, others' lives, testimonies, God's Word, amongst other things. You don't have to believe that - I'm not coercing anyone to do so, especially you, at this point and time.I will state this as clearly as I possibly can: "Personal experience does not provide sufficient evidence for us to actually believe a divine being actually exist." Its perfectly reasonable to ask for better evidence when faced with something as extraordinary as a divine being. Plus, I never in any of my post suggesting that you coerce people. My qualm with religion isn't based just on you, it's based on the entirety of the faith and it's people. My personal experience is that I have been subjected to coercion on many occasions by Christians in the past. In this case, personal experience is adequate evidence because what I claim is not extraordinary.Quote3. You do "appear" to contradict yourself. You say you "don't want to use the law to change people's view on religion because I don't believe in force and coercion. If someone willingly reads my post and comes to the logical conclusion that religion is made up, then that's great and no force need to be applied." Yet - you also say, "I'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.; Praying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. "Those two statements do not contradict one another. I can see why you think my post is an attack against religion, but I am specifically targeting prayer. In fact, if you have any ability to reason you'd realize that the intention of your religion isn't to be-able to solve all your problems by praying to god and hope he fixes everything, but that seems to be the general consensus of many of its followers.
I'm not going to word my post in a way that doesn't assume anything and tries to use politically correct language so that I don't offend anyone. I have to assume that my view point is the right one, otherwise I cannot argue for or against anything. This is basic logical debate 101. In order to argue your own opinion, you have to assume that its right and only change it once you are convinced otherwise. If you spend your time assuming everyone is right in their own way, you can't debate.
Just because I put a post of sharing my view does not mean I am going to use the police to try and arrest someone, or take a gun or other such weapon and threaten someone's life if the don't believe what I do. You seem to think that force and coercion can be achieved through words, and unless I threaten someone specifically or use my freedom of speech to slander someone specifically then I cannot coerce anyone with a thread.QuoteA. You "seem" to be trying to "coerce" someone away from making their own personal research and decision with stating your opinion as "implied fact." You have no proof of what you were saying to be true, anyway, since you do not claim to know God personally, so you therefore have no "conversation/answers" within your "no prayer" personal life.I don't think you understand what coercion is. Coercion is using force and intimidation (which is normally done by threatening others). Coercion cannot happen accidentally, as coercion has to do with intent as much as it does with the result of that intent. Again, in order to properly debate you have to state your opinion as "implied fact".QuoteB. Those who do pray, have been provided answers, whether a direct "no," a "yes," or a maybe not/maybe later. Usually, with any of these, a believer can determine, if not now, then later, why the answers came to what they were at the time.Actually, they think they are provided answers. They don't realize these people are finding answers in things that happen as a result of just them happening. Also, just because some people think they are provided answers doesn't qualify as strong enough evidence to point to the existence of god and the effectiveness of prayer.QuoteC. Regarding your example of prayer as opposed to fund raising efforts/charities to help find a cure for cancer: Believers can, do, and will pray for the cancer victims, families, friends, doctors, nurses - everyone involved, including the scientists working on trying to find a cure. However, while that's all some people may feel they can do to help in whatever way they can, there are many, believers or not, who also get out there and donate time and money, and help raise funds for the hopeful cures, food, clothing, hospital stays, meds, and/or whatever they can do to help. We have at least 3 young children just in our small town who are struggling even now with cancer. It's wonderful and amazing how much support, monetary, prayer, and comfort - are being given and offered by most of the citizens of our town - both believers and disbelievers. The point is, they are all working together to help try and do something; anything at all, to give support, care, concern, and love.So at best prayer has little to no effect on whether someone donates or gives to charity (someone who is unable to actually donate time or money will be unable to do so regardless of prayer). At worse it is used as a substitute (someone prays instead of actually helping because they think prayer is enough). Each person is different, but from what I can tell the overall affects of prayer do little to help and may in fact cause harm.QuoteD. My point, is that just because some people pray for needs like cancer, does not mean they sit on their duffs and do nothing. Some may - but most do not; blame for doing "nothing" can actually be applied towards anyone, believer or not, doing nothing to help - yet vocally demanding everyone else needs to be helping.Exactly, some may. Even if only 1% of all those who pray instead of actually helping someone, then decides to help someone because they no longer pray is reason enough to get rid of the idea of prayer. Also remember, prayer is not an effective means of obtaining happiness, so I don't use that in the equation in determining the usefulness of prayer.QuoteE. Prayer is powerful - for believers who know this to be true - and becomes a great and personal way of a believer's life. And most believers I know do not and will not try and "coerce" others to pray when it's something others do not wish to do. That point can be made for both sides - everyone willingly chooses what to or what not to believe in their lives, and should not be chided or belittled for doing so.So... The truth doesn't matter as long as everyone is happy? Sorry, I don't subscribe to the notion of blissful ignorance. I'd rather live in a world where we actually solve problems with practical and logical solutions.
QuoteIf you believe there is no God, then you do not believe any of the spouted mistruths you are putting out here.
You have failed to show why my logic is false, and therefore have no reason or right to call the reasonings false. Unless you can explain it through realistic means, you are showing the very definition of delusional thinking. I have the right to make examples of why something is fallacious without believing in the supernatural claims I'm speaking against. If you want to call them mistruths, that's your call. But it makes absolutely no sense and shows a very narrow sense of intelligence.Quotethis means, in actuality, lies are being spread about something you don't believe in or about, which mean those "lies" never took place, according to your interpretation of thinking.
Incorrect. I can make examples of something to better explain why they're false. Just because I don't believe in Santa Claus does not mean I can't make examples of why his existence is implausible.QuoteResearching the history of the events, understanding the facts and information, what happened, and why it happened, is preferable to just spouting half-lies and half-truths about something you know nothing about and claim to disbelieve. Contradicting yourself gets you nowhere.
Contradicting? Are you serious? If you have a very large equation finished, but find errors anywhere in it after going over it, the whole equation is damaged. Your beliefs and ancient book, as I have proven countless times in the past, is just this. The fact that your beliefs have never been able to withstand any basic skepticism says an overwhelming amount about them. I'm not the one spreading lies. I'm the one explaining why religious 'facts' are fallible and should not be taken seriously. Now before you go and start copy/pasting 10 pages of text from well-known creationist liars to show your 'research' on the subject, I recommend you stop yourself and realize how intellectually dishonest you're being and have been in the past.
You are just one person, behind a screen I might add (as I am also behind a screen), who disagrees with the existence of God. So naturally, anything regarding God is rejected, including His Word - that is expected. Fortunately for me and for other believers, your views don't affect my views
your interpretations are simply your interpretations from the outside looking in
thinking you are being plausible, when instead, you are missing the core of understanding, the heart dedicated to God, and misrepresenting truths, leaving out the full points, and attempting in every way to make God look "evil" and "bad."
You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance." Nor am I. I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions. No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever. Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.
I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations. You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it. I, as a believer, do. Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.
If you feel no guilt, it is a clear indication that you feel no wrong. I feel justified because I do not agree with you and your one-sided beliefs. I see nobody else agree with you either. :angel12: :angel12:
I have my beliefs and you have yours. Yet in the Ten Commandments he said not to honor false gods. I honor Him. I was raised up believing that there is a God and nobody knows when he's returning.
God said to not put any gods before Him. You are a pagan worshipper.
You are supposed to worship the only God there is.
I am not contradicting myself. You began this controversy by telling people their god is not real; that is like telling the Devil that you signed on a new breed of worshippers for him.
God said to not put any gods before Him. You are a pagan worshipper. You are supposed to worship the only God there is. I am not contradicting myself. You began this controversy by telling people their god is not real; that is like telling the Devil that you signed on a new breed of worshippers for him. You had to have known this was going to start a problem. You didn't care. ??? :o :o :o :o
Did you tell your parents that? Because I still assert that God created you and He is your true Father
I refuse to play this back-and-forth game with you because you are a fool.
You don't see it now, but God will show you when you die why He is the boss.
I would rather believe in Him than Satan; his home is the fiery hell he lives in. You are going to need ice water to chill the heat in your body.
You my friend will be at the top of the list. Hope you have a great week.
I am not ignorant.
Your timing is off considerably. I will ask God for guidance because for a man, you are so ignorant you wouldn't know God if he came up literally and slapped the mess out of you.
I could go your route and say F***u
I've got style.
The only reason you think it is pointless is because I won't budge from my belief in Christ. Why does it matter so much to you anyway? I'm not trying to coerce you from your choice of disbelief. It's my life and my business, and nothing to do with yours, nor yours with mine.QuoteYou are just one person, behind a screen I might add (as I am also behind a screen), who disagrees with the existence of God. So naturally, anything regarding God is rejected, including His Word - that is expected. Fortunately for me and for other believers, your views don't affect my views
Then you and the others being in debate and discuss is fairly pointless. I'll be the level headed one here and say yours and others viewpoints can affect my viewpoint, but when you and the others cannot provide sufficient evidence of anything involving your beliefs, there's really no point in debating or discussing any truth claims you believe you have.Quoteyour interpretations are simply your interpretations from the outside looking in
So I guess the bible is right because the bible says so? That's the problem with not seeing it from the inside looking out. I recall showing you numerous times why your biblical opinions are false and you failing to show why I'm wrong in these justifications. Slavery, the argument of free will, false prophecies, Noah's Ark, etc. Each time you failed to disprove why this god is not malevolent or how the bible is not fallacious.Quotethinking you are being plausible, when instead, you are missing the core of understanding, the heart dedicated to God, and misrepresenting truths, leaving out the full points, and attempting in every way to make God look "evil" and "bad."
And, oddly enough, you've failed the vast majority of the time in making a counter-point when I present the fallacies of your beliefs.
"Believe those who seek the truth. Doubt those who say they have it."
Mind your own "logical/illogical" reasoning, and I'll mind mine. Just because my thoughts, views, and beliefs don't agree with yours, does not make my reasoning illogical. And vice versa, I might add - but, I am not the one cutting down someone's reasoning as you are.You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance." Nor am I. I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions. No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever. Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.
I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations. You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it. I, as a believer, do. Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.
If you had even an ounce of logical reasoning, you wouldn't include god. It doesn't matter if prayer is powerful, what matters is whether or not it actually does any good. You said nothing in response to my statement that prayer is harmful to society as a whole, and haven't given me any more evidence to support the claim that prayer works. You don't have too, but my stance still stands as it was. If people don't want to explain themselves, that's fine. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to ask for said explanation. One's silence can speak more than one's words.
The only reason you think it is pointless is because I won't budge from my belief in Christ.
Why does it matter so much to you anyway? I'm not trying to coerce you from your choice of disbelief. It's my life and my business, and nothing to do with yours, nor yours with mine.
That is a condition of the heart being hardened against God, and it is the personal free will and choice to ignore answers and/or make them look false or unanswered
So, since it is your choice to disbelieve, and my choice to believe, there really is nothing more to add on, except to constantly go in circles.
QuoteThe only reason you think it is pointless is because I won't budge from my belief in Christ.
The point of a debate is to present two opposing viewpoints and then have each side be educated on the others viewpoint. When one isn't willing to budge or ignores the glaring problems within their own side, then it's pointless. When I've presented realistic/logical problems with your reasonings and proofs and then later on you regurgitate the same nonsense, it's ridiculous.QuoteWhy does it matter so much to you anyway? I'm not trying to coerce you from your choice of disbelief. It's my life and my business, and nothing to do with yours, nor yours with mine.
Well I appreciate the lack of personal attacks (unlike SOME of the christians on this forum...), but if you're going to share your POV in a debate and discuss forum, it does matter and you can't play the victim card if you comment or create a thread about it. However I'm just talking from a discussion level and not some deep personal/psychological level. Even though I use terms like 'delusional' a lot, it only pertains to the subject matter. You are not a (fully) delusional person, but your beliefs in the supernatural are a delusional quality.QuoteThat is a condition of the heart being hardened against God, and it is the personal free will and choice to ignore answers and/or make them look false or unanswered
But I don't ignore answers. I know for a fact that you've posted fallible material many times. I point out the problems of those fallible answers. I notice this trend when I point out a problem-
1. The believers here will try to answer it
2. The answer is fallible on an elementary level and I point that out
3. The believers say I won't understand because of (insert random emotion here) or (insert some not-part-of-the-club dribble here)
4. I point out how that's a logical fallacy and emotion has nothing/very little to do with it
5. Original believers discussing the matter abandon the post without counter-arguing their fallaciesQuoteSo, since it is your choice to disbelieve, and my choice to believe, there really is nothing more to add on, except to constantly go in circles.
Humanity gains knowledge and evolves through understanding its surroundings. The problem with religious beliefs is most are against this concept. Clinging to ancient writings from people who thought the world was flat is odd and peculiar when we know so much about the universe just through something like modern-day astrophysics. You can believe what you wish, but thinking you can share it as truth here will get you that pesky 'logical flak'. Expect more circles I suppose.
Mind your own "logical/illogical" reasoning, and I'll mind mine. Just because my thoughts, views, and beliefs don't agree with yours, does not make my reasoning illogical. And vice versa, I might add - but, I am not the one cutting down someone's reasoning as you are.You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance." Nor am I. I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions. No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever. Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.
I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations. You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it. I, as a believer, do. Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.
If you had even an ounce of logical reasoning, you wouldn't include god. It doesn't matter if prayer is powerful, what matters is whether or not it actually does any good. You said nothing in response to my statement that prayer is harmful to society as a whole, and haven't given me any more evidence to support the claim that prayer works. You don't have too, but my stance still stands as it was. If people don't want to explain themselves, that's fine. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to ask for said explanation. One's silence can speak more than one's words.
It matters not what I reply to you regarding prayer being harmful or not being harmful to society - you do not accept and/or pay attention to what I have said many times already. I don't really expect you to accept something that you do not know personally nor have experienced - if you did, then there would be an understanding and peace regarding prayer, what it does, how it helps and comforts, through relying on Christ.
QuoteI'd like to start off by saying that your god isn't real. Sorry.
OMG U CANT PROOF THAT SO U CANT SAY THATQuotePraying doesn't solve anything. Praying is simply giving yourself false hope when you should in fact have real hope as a result of actually doing something to help a given situation. Don't pray that we may find a cure for cancer when you can take that same effort and fund raise for charity. Prayer has been shown to cause no affect to the outcome of an event. Prayer's effects, no matter how massive the number of people are involved, has never been scientifically shown to make a significant differences in the outcome of an event. You could argue its because god deems it so, (which is a very popular scapegoat used) but this argument is one that hurts prayer the most.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I forget who said this- "A thousand people can pray for something to be fixed, but it only takes 1 to get up off of their knees and fix it." The only thing I think you've left out here is that praying can make people feel good. It can act as a placebo effect and get them in high spirits when everything else in or around them is in bad condition. And who knows? Maybe in the future we'll find some quantum force that binds us all together (I hold no belief in this-- just a speculative idea)! I really have no problem with those situations if it's truly helping the person personally. It's when faith healers try to cash in on this idea or when people arrogantly speak of it as truth and are condescending of their apparent god-talking super-power. Y'know. Religion.QuoteIf god (assuming such a deity exist, and is in fact the god of the christian bible) is going to do whatever he/she/it wants too regardless of prayer, then what is the point of prayer exactly? I suppose you could say the whole point is just to "connect" to god (I wont get into the specifics of that argument as I'll just be going back to my previous statement that god isn't real). Just remember, though, if you believe that prayer is only used to connect to your god, then you must also be insulted by the influx of threads, posts, and the general ideology that's telling others that they can pray their problems away.
The whole concept of praying to the Abrahamic god presents numerous logical problems. On one hand, praying and asking the god to make bad things go away would interfere with there being a "divine plan" because the believer is asking god to change something in the plan. If it's that simple and everyone's praying for this god to change things in their favor, there can't be a set plan. In that sense, praying is pointless if one believes there is a divine plan. If one believes god tilts things in their favor, there is no set course and thus the whole concept of a divine plan contradicts the religions teachings. However if one prays after bad things happen ("it's part of god's plan") thanking god for sparing them or opening their eyes to something after a bad experience, they're just praising the god's malevolence. Anyone (believer or not) has life-altering experiences. Good or bad, it's silly (and sometimes dangerous) to equate the experiences to a defined god.
[/quote] Thats why its said to each its own belief ......touchy subject. I take what I need and leave the rest.....
I personally believe that much of this boils down to the concept of "faith" and "trust." Romans 10:17 says, “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." In other words, faith is trusting in someone or something - in this scenario, Christ - acting on God's Word, and not acting on our personal perceptions on the matter.
As you know yourself, there is a difference between believing what we know to be true, and what we perceive to be true. Many people can't perceive the truth about God, because they don't experience the trust and faith in God that believers do. It also takes time to build the trust and faith in someone or something. It would be difficult to believe in or trust a stranger. With a believer, the trust has been slowly gained, over time, through experiences, through answers to prayer or situations, to the point of the believer knowing deep down, with confidence and trust, that their faith is indeed real and Christ is indeed real.
There are many gods. God does say in His Word, that we (believers, that is) are to worship Him, and that He is a jealous God. There are many religions. Believers don't worship a religion - they worship God. In my case, personally, I am a Christian, a believer in Christ, and Christianity is a "faith-based" religion. As a believer, I have God's Word, the Bible, as a testimony for the grounding of my faith in God. Then there is the fulfilling of the prophecy of Christ's birth, death, burial, and resurrection, and through Him and His sacrifice, a believer, such as myself, places faith and trust in Christ, for God's gift of salvation.
Back to the perception of truth and/or reality - because some people cannot "see" God or Christ, literally, the struggle with faith/trust enters the picture. There again, as already mentioned above, it's understandable the struggle with faith/trust when the someone/something can't be seen literally. Also, again, that's where spending time with the someone/something, researching, asking questions, answering, studying, praying, having prayers answered, situations helped or changed, and so many other evidences of truth happening in the believer's life, then faith is established and built more concretely.
t's kind of like stepping out of our comfort zone or outside of the box to go beyond just "seeing" the literal truth, but also being able to perceive and know the truth, through faith, confidence, and trust. And once again, as we both know, the circle starts all over again, because of the conflict between faith and seeing/not seeing. And we carry on...
I have a question for Falconer2. I am quite serious when I ask this and am trying to understand your point of view (even if I don't agree with it). If there is no God how were we created? If you say we came from monkeys, who created the monkeys?
so how can you be so sure God doesn't exist. Science hasn't ever proven there is no soul and what happens to it. What's the purpose of this thing called life, existents. We all might as well kill each other and end human existence. I am an Agnostic, but we just don't know until were dead do we!
I am quite serious when I ask this and am trying to understand your point of view (even if I don't agree with it). If there is no God how were we created? If you say we came from monkeys, who created the monkeys?
Mind your own "logical/illogical" reasoning, and I'll mind mine. Just because my thoughts, views, and beliefs don't agree with yours, does not make my reasoning illogical. And vice versa, I might add - but, I am not the one cutting down someone's reasoning as you are.You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance." Nor am I. I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions. No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever. Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.
I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations. You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it. I, as a believer, do. Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.
If you had even an ounce of logical reasoning, you wouldn't include god. It doesn't matter if prayer is powerful, what matters is whether or not it actually does any good. You said nothing in response to my statement that prayer is harmful to society as a whole, and haven't given me any more evidence to support the claim that prayer works. You don't have too, but my stance still stands as it was. If people don't want to explain themselves, that's fine. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to ask for said explanation. One's silence can speak more than one's words.
It matters not what I reply to you regarding prayer being harmful or not being harmful to society - you do not accept and/or pay attention to what I have said many times already. I don't really expect you to accept something that you do not know personally nor have experienced - if you did, then there would be an understanding and peace regarding prayer, what it does, how it helps and comforts, through relying on Christ.
I'm not going to "mind my own logical/illogical reasoning" because you may have noticed we are on a forum dedicated to debate, on a thread I opened for the use of debating. If you no longer wish to debate then no one is forcing you to respond. Also, please don't tell others to stop replying and mind their own business. Otherwise, if you wish to continue to defend your position, I would highly recommend focusing on your position rather than claiming victim to being attacked because someone posted a different opinion from yours. This is getting rather annoying and I have ignored it up to this point.
The reason your ideology is illogical isn't just because I disagree with it. You're ignoring all of the reasons I (as well as others) gave that show's religion is illogical (ie: Blatant contradictions in the bible, no real evidence and no real scientific backing, no evidence outside of the bible that can be used as proof of the events the bible describes, the fact that other religions hold just as much (or as should say as little) validity as yours, the fact that prayer has been shown to have little or no real effect, and I could go on.)
Also, my personal experience has little to do with what I base my reality on. If I see something that looks like Bigfoot, I'm not going to go out on a limb and assume Bigfoot is real. At the same time, If I experience the affects of prayer then I'm noting to assume those effects happened as a result of that prayer. There's plenty of reasons why I experience what I experience so experiences alone may have little to do with actual reality. That's why we have the scientific method. Its also why, even though its the best method, it isn't perfect and we can never state actual fact from it (the reason why "theories are just theories"). It simply hold more validity than personal experiences.
So forgive me if I take other people's personal experiences with even less validity. Especially when claiming something as important as a divine being.
You can believe in Jesus all you want. That is YOUR business. But when you want to govern the law of they land in which I live based on your fairy tale, then it becomes MY business.
QuoteI personally believe that much of this boils down to the concept of "faith" and "trust." Romans 10:17 says, “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." In other words, faith is trusting in someone or something - in this scenario, Christ - acting on God's Word, and not acting on our personal perceptions on the matter.
I see, but if this were true, everyone who ever wholeheartedly prayed to your god for help/guidance/etc. would have received a 'reward'. This is not the case though since there are faith-oriented people out there that have died praying or are in horrible pain or simply aren't getting what they want/deserve. Therefore any success story is based on personal perception since the 'success stories' are cherry picked. This is not my personal take on the matter since the evidence shows nothing happens.QuoteAs you know yourself, there is a difference between believing what we know to be true, and what we perceive to be true. Many people can't perceive the truth about God, because they don't experience the trust and faith in God that believers do. It also takes time to build the trust and faith in someone or something. It would be difficult to believe in or trust a stranger. With a believer, the trust has been slowly gained, over time, through experiences, through answers to prayer or situations, to the point of the believer knowing deep down, with confidence and trust, that their faith is indeed real and Christ is indeed real.
Again, personal interpretations of a matter are not proofs. Saying one is slowly gaining answers and building up trust in a stranger nobody has ever seen is delusional (and possible schizophrenic) behavior.QuoteThere are many gods. God does say in His Word, that we (believers, that is) are to worship Him, and that He is a jealous God. There are many religions. Believers don't worship a religion - they worship God. In my case, personally, I am a Christian, a believer in Christ, and Christianity is a "faith-based" religion. As a believer, I have God's Word, the Bible, as a testimony for the grounding of my faith in God. Then there is the fulfilling of the prophecy of Christ's birth, death, burial, and resurrection, and through Him and His sacrifice, a believer, such as myself, places faith and trust in Christ, for God's gift of salvation.
So you admit that other gods exist besides your own?QuoteBack to the perception of truth and/or reality - because some people cannot "see" God or Christ, literally, the struggle with faith/trust enters the picture. There again, as already mentioned above, it's understandable the struggle with faith/trust when the someone/something can't be seen literally. Also, again, that's where spending time with the someone/something, researching, asking questions, answering, studying, praying, having prayers answered, situations helped or changed, and so many other evidences of truth happening in the believer's life, then faith is established and built more concretely.
Again, if it were true and one did all these things, that would consitute as empirical proof that praying to your god works. However it's the contrary because you can do all of the things you listed to ...lets say... Super Mario and get the same results if you're a fan of his. It's not the prayer being answered by some mystical supernatural force. It's the person's own will power that sparks change.Quotet's kind of like stepping out of our comfort zone or outside of the box to go beyond just "seeing" the literal truth, but also being able to perceive and know the truth, through faith, confidence, and trust. And once again, as we both know, the circle starts all over again, because of the conflict between faith and seeing/not seeing. And we carry on...
You can say this exact thing about The Matrix existing, but w/o any evidence besides "you must become blind", you don't have an argument to hold up.
You can believe in Jesus all you want. That is YOUR business. But when you want to govern the law of they land in which I live based on your fairy tale, then it becomes MY business.
I'm not quite sure to whom you are speaking, but be reassured on my behalf, that it is not my intention for my faith in God, with my "religion," to govern the law of the land. I just want the Constitution upheld so that believers can worship freely, and those who do not choose or have religion, will have their freedom, too.
No one receives a "reward" for every situation they pray for and about. I don't know where that comes from nor why you would think that.
You bring up Mario and The Matrix, however, those 2 aren't up for debate on being "God" and being worshiped, and have no comparison with God. Neither do Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny, etc.
Some children are encouraged to believe in them as children, and when older, are either told the truth or they figure it out. It's sort of like a "magical" part of childhood, including fun and excitement of certain holidays.
On the other hand, God is who is up for the debate with being real or not. I've already mentioned there are reasons, testimonies, situations that happened, God's Word, historical situations, and more, that prove to some people that God is real and so they place their faith in Him.
but they shouldn't be intimidated or belittled for believing something they know or perceive to be the truth for them.
Some disbelievers tend to get over-zealous, as well, and attempt to coerce believers to give up believing in God, or some try to make believers appear schizo, delusional, or otherwise, for believing in God. Yet, the Constitution protects both sides, and some people on both sides tend to forget this when coming down on others for their personal choice.
Why the big concern for others if they believe there is heaven or hell after death?
then who is anyone else to try and tell them otherwise that there is nothing after death?
Believers shouldn't have to cower in fear and intimidation from others who don't agree with their choice of worshiping God. And likewise, others who deny God exists, shouldn't have to cower because believers don't agree with their choice.
In today's society, more people, on both sides of the issue, are tending to mind other peoples' business when it comes to an individual's personal choice of believing or disbelieving.
I've not done anything of the kind, sir. Not everyone does what you seem to think they do.You can believe in Jesus all you want. That is YOUR business. But when you want to govern the law of they land in which I live based on your fairy tale, then it becomes MY business.
I'm not quite sure to whom you are speaking, but be reassured on my behalf, that it is not my intention for my faith in God, with my "religion," to govern the law of the land. I just want the Constitution upheld so that believers can worship freely, and those who do not choose or have religion, will have their freedom, too.
False. When you deny a woman the right to choose, or a couple from being married based solely on a book that also says a man lived to be 900 years old, then you are not keeping church and state separate.
QuoteNo one receives a "reward" for every situation they pray for and about. I don't know where that comes from nor why you would think that.
You brought it up with your bible verse- "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." . Perhaps I just misread what you meant.QuoteYou bring up Mario and The Matrix, however, those 2 aren't up for debate on being "God" and being worshiped, and have no comparison with God. Neither do Santa Claus and The Easter Bunny, etc.
Sure they do. They're all fictional. The Matrix even has some religious elements and god-like characters in it. When you can draw simple parallels from these things, they are alike.QuoteSome children are encouraged to believe in them as children, and when older, are either told the truth or they figure it out. It's sort of like a "magical" part of childhood, including fun and excitement of certain holidays.
You don't find it peculiar at all that parents dont do this with religious tales? "Santa Clause going around the world in 1 night? Ha! Proposterous! My god flooding the entire world? A talking serpent? Totally legit."QuoteOn the other hand, God is who is up for the debate with being real or not. I've already mentioned there are reasons, testimonies, situations that happened, God's Word, historical situations, and more, that prove to some people that God is real and so they place their faith in Him.
But I've proven before that these are either flat-out false, inconclusive, anecdotal, cherry-picked, romanticized, or lies. Personally I don't care, but when people push them as truths and suddenly they're teaching creationism in science classes, the line has been breached.Quotebut they shouldn't be intimidated or belittled for believing something they know or perceive to be the truth for them.
Except when they force it upon a free society as Sigimap has pointed out. Let's not forget (historically) the blood spilled in the name of your god either.QuoteSome disbelievers tend to get over-zealous, as well, and attempt to coerce believers to give up believing in God, or some try to make believers appear schizo, delusional, or otherwise, for believing in God. Yet, the Constitution protects both sides, and some people on both sides tend to forget this when coming down on others for their personal choice.
The fact is that it is delusional and sometime schizophrenic behavior. Heck, we've had schizo's on this forum before who believed in god and heard voices! This is a friendly debate. I'm not trying to take down the first amendment or anything-- that's ridiculous.QuoteWhy the big concern for others if they believe there is heaven or hell after death?
It's not a major concern. Ancient afterlife concepts are silly though. If it comforts them on their deathbed, I'm sure nobody has any issues with it. Besides, everyone goes to heaven besides those rotten serial killers. Or maybe it was those people who didn't accept Jesus? Or perhaps they needed to take more action with their beliefs to get to heaven? Etc. etc. etc.Quotethen who is anyone else to try and tell them otherwise that there is nothing after death?
Who's saying that? Nobody knows what happens. Anyone who claims to know is ridiculously arrogant.QuoteBelievers shouldn't have to cower in fear and intimidation from others who don't agree with their choice of worshiping God. And likewise, others who deny God exists, shouldn't have to cower because believers don't agree with their choice.
Correct, though it's unfortunate your beliefs have claimed so many lives and chained so many people for just those reasons.QuoteIn today's society, more people, on both sides of the issue, are tending to mind other peoples' business when it comes to an individual's personal choice of believing or disbelieving.
Yes, though I find it interesting that religion is slowly disappearing in 1st-world countries while this concept you speak of has been promoted in all of them.
Mind your own "logical/illogical" reasoning, and I'll mind mine. Just because my thoughts, views, and beliefs don't agree with yours, does not make my reasoning illogical. And vice versa, I might add - but, I am not the one cutting down someone's reasoning as you are.You don't have to subscribe, nor are you subscribing to the notion of "blissful ignorance." Nor am I. I live in a world of reality, trying to solve problems with practical and logical solutions, as well, and I also include God in my life, priorities, actions, and guidance with practical and logical solutions. No one is going to be 100% happy, whether they pray or not pray, and whether they are a believer or a disbeliever. Your subscribing does not interfere with nor change mine, and vice versa.
I'm saying, as a believer, prayer does indeed work, and can be powerful in its results to situations. You, as a disbeliever, do not have to subscribe or have anything to do with it. I, as a believer, do. Individual choices made personal, with not having to explain themselves to anyone for their decisions in life, with regards to God or not God.
If you had even an ounce of logical reasoning, you wouldn't include god. It doesn't matter if prayer is powerful, what matters is whether or not it actually does any good. You said nothing in response to my statement that prayer is harmful to society as a whole, and haven't given me any more evidence to support the claim that prayer works. You don't have too, but my stance still stands as it was. If people don't want to explain themselves, that's fine. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to ask for said explanation. One's silence can speak more than one's words.
It matters not what I reply to you regarding prayer being harmful or not being harmful to society - you do not accept and/or pay attention to what I have said many times already. I don't really expect you to accept something that you do not know personally nor have experienced - if you did, then there would be an understanding and peace regarding prayer, what it does, how it helps and comforts, through relying on Christ.
I'm not going to "mind my own logical/illogical reasoning" because you may have noticed we are on a forum dedicated to debate, on a thread I opened for the use of debating. If you no longer wish to debate then no one is forcing you to respond. Also, please don't tell others to stop replying and mind their own business. Otherwise, if you wish to continue to defend your position, I would highly recommend focusing on your position rather than claiming victim to being attacked because someone posted a different opinion from yours. This is getting rather annoying and I have ignored it up to this point.
The reason your ideology is illogical isn't just because I disagree with it. You're ignoring all of the reasons I (as well as others) gave that show's religion is illogical (ie: Blatant contradictions in the bible, no real evidence and no real scientific backing, no evidence outside of the bible that can be used as proof of the events the bible describes, the fact that other religions hold just as much (or as should say as little) validity as yours, the fact that prayer has been shown to have little or no real effect, and I could go on.)
Also, my personal experience has little to do with what I base my reality on. If I see something that looks like Bigfoot, I'm not going to go out on a limb and assume Bigfoot is real. At the same time, If I experience the affects of prayer then I'm noting to assume those effects happened as a result of that prayer. There's plenty of reasons why I experience what I experience so experiences alone may have little to do with actual reality. That's why we have the scientific method. Its also why, even though its the best method, it isn't perfect and we can never state actual fact from it (the reason why "theories are just theories"). It simply hold more validity than personal experiences.
So forgive me if I take other people's personal experiences with even less validity. Especially when claiming something as important as a divine being.
This is one reason I don't care to debate much with you - you take words out of context and twist them. You said if "I had any logical reasoning, I wouldn't include God." So, I told you to mind your own logical/illogical reasoning, because I do reason logically and can and will include God, since He is a part of my life and reasoning. I'm not trying to mind your business and am not telling you to mind your business, but not to determine my logical/illogical reasoning skills - it's your opinion, not fact, and you do not know me enough to make a factual comment about my reasoning; nor do I with yours.
With that said, I see no need to discuss God/no God with you, unless you leave the personal aim towards my mental abilities out of it and instead, speak on the topic itself.
I've not done anything of the kind, sir. Not everyone does what you seem to think they do.You can believe in Jesus all you want. That is YOUR business. But when you want to govern the law of they land in which I live based on your fairy tale, then it becomes MY business.
I'm not quite sure to whom you are speaking, but be reassured on my behalf, that it is not my intention for my faith in God, with my "religion," to govern the law of the land. I just want the Constitution upheld so that believers can worship freely, and those who do not choose or have religion, will have their freedom, too.
Slavery and not allowing women to vote used to be personal preference. But hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
False. When you deny a woman the right to choose, or a couple from being married based solely on a book that also says a man lived to be 900 years old, then you are not keeping church and state separate.
Another thing, those issues are not all encompassed strictly through the "God" thing. And people are free to feel about those issues whichever way they want - some may agree with you and some may not - it's personal preference and beliefs that people feel strongly about, whether for or against those social issues.
My "beliefs" did not kill or burn others - people did. (Just an add in here: guns don't kill people; people use the guns to kill people.) Some were way over-zealous and seemed to have gone past doing what God wanted - to love everyone - and instead, played God. They were wrong. I will add, too, that believers and disbelievers, alike, are all capable of killing, burning, molesting, etc. - it's the people who do so and it doesn't matter who or what they are, they deserve to pay the consequences/penalties for their actions.
As far as what is taught in the schools, evolution and creation were taught side by side for many years. Both should be included, in my opinion - the parents and students (teens) should be able to look at both and determine from there what they agree with or not agree with.
some feel evolution is too weird too even consider for the sudden "bang" out of nothing/nowhere and then everything just suddenly "knows" how to evolve into what everything is today
not to mention it is still just a theory, by "man," not 100% proven, either.
However, both are fantastic to look at, study, and do research on, even to the point of considering the possibility of the combination of both.
You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.
You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and etc.
I agree that people probably pray to make themselves feel better, to connect with god, gain hope, and so on. But, what's wrong with having hope? Even if it's false hope, it can actually help some people improve their lives.
I'm not very religious, I'm actually quite agnostic, but I don't think praying a bad or silly thing for people to do.
i couldnt agree way more.. this is a troll thread tho.. they like to have opinions as facts.. its just silly to me..
they like to have opinions as facts.. its just silly to me..
You can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything.
Hmm. But the only evidence that was provided against prayer is that it isn't effective against illness. This is what I basically think about that: http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/mindbodyandspirit/spirituality-and-prayer (http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/mindbodyandspirit/spirituality-and-prayer)QuoteYou can't prove that god doesn't exist and you also can't prove that prayer doesn't do anything.
Speculatively you are correct. Rationally you are wrong- we can and we already have if you read the entire thread. The scientific evidence shows praying does nothing and the idea of defined gods is illogical as they usually succumb to silly reasonings.
Hmm. But the only evidence that was provided against prayer is that it isn't effective against illness.
Prayer helps people spiritually. It gives them hope. For some people, religion and prayer are the only things that are keeping them going.
No, it can't cure or improve illness, but it still improves lives and helps people cope with/accept illness (and other problems that they can't control).
Right. I'm not denying that it is quite delusional.QuoteHmm. But the only evidence that was provided against prayer is that it isn't effective against illness.
Isn't that sort of the major one here? I understand keeping someone with an illness or injury in a good mindframe is important (same with animals), but knowing someone is praying for you or having the person pray to themselves is on par with bringing in/eating their favorite food. Placebo effects are also a major key here.
I should have stated there is 0 evidence showing that prayer leads to supernatural occurrences that help people.QuotePrayer helps people spiritually. It gives them hope. For some people, religion and prayer are the only things that are keeping them going.
Well then more power to them! But if they go around stating they were saved by supernatural powers/entities (like the majority of the religious do), they should be expecting skepticism.QuoteNo, it can't cure or improve illness, but it still improves lives and helps people cope with/accept illness (and other problems that they can't control).
If it can't improve or cure illnesses, then the religious shouldn't say it can as that is dishonest.
Eh,I don't even bother much with these troll threads anymore. You'll find only the most insecure person creating such a thread-during Holy Week,yet. ::)
Right. I'm not denying that it is quite delusional.
Just because you read something you disagree with does not make it trolling.