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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: mythociate on January 09, 2014, 10:58:51 am
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He wasn't, as He explains (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%209:6-8/&version=KJV) while He heals. He was just another Son of Man, and wasn't the Son of God until His trial before Pilate (or before that, when Simon Peter told Him so).
I think we do it so that we can achieve similar 'glory' without fearing we might also have to face crucifixion. ???
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He wasn't, as He explains (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%209:6-8/&version=KJV) while He heals. He was just another Son of Man, and wasn't the Son of God until His trial before Pilate (or before that, when Simon Peter told Him so).[/b]
I think we do it so that we can achieve similar 'glory' without fearing we might also have to face crucifixion. ???
This is a very strange line of reasoning....You mean He had to "declare" Himself Son of God,to be the Son of God?
That's just messed up theology.
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LOL!!!!!!!!
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Because he was! Hahaha... is that a serious question? Lol
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I would think a little something called the Virgin Birth would've been enough to identify that Jesus was divine rather than just another human!
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I also think his 33 yrs of life on earth as a man proved HE was Gods begotten son too!
Remember the Roman soldier after Jesus death what he said."This Jesus was surely Gods son."
Plus don't forget all the prophecys in OT that Jesus fulfilled to come true.
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But mythociate's case seems to be He became the Son of God once He "declared" He was the Son of God.
How does that work exactly?If I declare myself a turnip,will I become a turnip? It's a serious question!
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JJ I think you hit on it earlier.....Mary conceived Jesus thru Gods holy spirit.
I think right there that proves Jesus is Gods son....plus remember Jesus already existed as a spirit...as he was growing up as a human he showed he remembered his time in heaven with his father.
The angel Gabriel mentions who Jesus is too.
Why do you think king Herod wanted the child killed?He knew from prophecy who Jesus was.
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This was not a case of immaculate conception. God impregnated Mary, who was a virgin and she gave birth to Jesus, who is the "Son of God", "The Son of Man", "The Messiah", or whatever He is to be called. He was known to be a miraculous man and cured many people. Whether you believe it or not, He died at the age of 33 and gave us a chance to survive. What is wrong with that? :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow:
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You mean He had to "declare" Himself Son of God,to be the Son of God?
Actually, He DID declare Himself to be the Son of God ... when He told us how to address our prayers, when He said "Our Father" (not 'My Father,' Brother Kenneth Copeland (http://www.kcm.org) pointed out on a recent broadcast).
I would think a little something called the Virgin Birth would've been enough to identify that Jesus was divine rather than just another human!
So was Alexander the Great, and so are lots-&-lots of African babies!
I also think his 33 yrs of life on earth as a man proved HE was Gods begotten son too!
So? My grandfather lived to 99; does that make him THREE TIMES' the Son of God Jesus was?He became the Son of God once He "declared" He was the Son of God.
How does that work exactly?If I declare myself a turnip,will I become a turnip? It's a serious question!
Good point; if you declare that you're a turnip, people will think ... pretty much the same thing as if you declare you are Genghis Khan or Daffy Duck. And you'll remember that 'declaring' (or 'agreeing') that He was the Son of God is what Jesus was convicted-of.
...plus remember Jesus already existed as a spirit...as he was growing up as a human he showed he remembered his time in heaven with his father.
So did you, and so did I (exist as a spirit).
Why don't WE show we remember our time in Heaven with Our Father? (... because WE ARE NOT A TURNIP!)
He was known to be a miraculous man and cured many people.
Pshh ... yeah, a rabbit out of a hat!...
Whether you believe it or not, He died at the age of 33 and gave us a chance to survive. What is wrong with that? :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow:
The same thing as is wrong with the 'fact' that Paul Atredes IS the Kwisatz Haderach!
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You mean He had to "declare" Himself Son of God,to be the Son of God?
Actually, He DID declare Himself to be the Son of God ... when He told us how to address our prayers, when He said "Our Father" (not 'My Father,' Brother Kenneth Copeland (http://www.kcm.org) pointed out on a recent broadcast).
Well,that isn't the question.Obviously Jesus did identify Himself as the Son of God on several occasions.But is it your belief that He wasn't the Son of God before declaring it?
I would think a little something called the Virgin Birth would've been enough to identify that Jesus was divine rather than just another human!
So was Alexander the Great, and so are lots-&-lots of African babies!
It's tough to tell if you're trolling or not at this point.Did Alexander The Great have thousands of prophesies that detailed virtually every detail of his life from birth to death?There is also little doubt that (you know,putting it delicately) men are involved in the conception of African babies.
...plus remember Jesus already existed as a spirit...as he was growing up as a human he showed he remembered his time in heaven with his father.
So did you, and so did I (exist as a spirit).
Why don't WE show we remember our time in Heaven with Our Father? (... because WE ARE NOT A TURNIP!)
There is no Biblical evidence for us existing spiritually before conception.Not sure where you got that.
He was known to be a miraculous man and cured many people.
Pshh ... yeah, a rabbit out of a hat!...
Whether you believe it or not, He died at the age of 33 and gave us a chance to survive. What is wrong with that? :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow:
The same thing as is wrong with the 'fact' that Paul Atredes IS the Kwisatz Haderach!
Apparently,you:
A. Don't believe in the virgin birth
B. Don't believe Jesus was the Son of God (at least not right away....?)
C. Don't believe Jesus preformed miracles
D Don't believe God's Covenant of Christ's Atonement is sufficient
E And you "aren't sure" that God cannot do evil
Yet you refer to Jesus as "Lord" and ply a multitude of biblical questions. I'm sure you're being purposefully elusive about this for your own amusement,but why not just state your beliefs instead of the game.?
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Apparently,you:
A. Don't believe in the virgin birth
B. Don't believe Jesus was the Son of God (at least not right away....?)
C. Don't believe Jesus preformed miracles
D Don't believe God's Covenant of Christ's Atonement is sufficient
E And you "aren't sure" that God cannot do evil
Yet you refer to Jesus as "Lord" and ply a multitude of biblical questions. I'm sure you're being purposefully elusive about this for your own amusement,but why not just state your beliefs instead of the game.?
You mean I 'have to declare "I believe something" before I can believe'? lol
I do believe Jesus is the Son of God, but I don't believe He's the only Son. (Sure, the Bible says He is; but HE says we're His brothers-&-sisters!)
I'm not sure where you got points C & D ... I think He DID do miracles, but not exactly 'of His own power.' & God's Grace is sufficient; 'Christ's blood-atonement or whatever' is a way for our carnal minds to understand that.
And I KNOW God does plenty of 'evil!' Oh, it's never "evil" in the end (it's necessary, like the forge's fire). But it is if you can't change sides---for example, homosexuality is evil. But they try to use the rumor that you're BORN homo- or hetero-, and they reason (promoting that lie as truth) that 'God made the homo's that way.' So God is Evil if you believe the lie.
In a way, I AM 'stating my beliefs' ... in the form of questions, my philosophy being "strong enough to bend."
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Seriously....such nonsense...
Jesus was Jehovahs BEGOTTEN son....because Jehovah created him directly.Everything else the 2 of them created.Jesus referred to as Gods master worker.
Let US make man.....NOT let me make man.....US is plural
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Col 1:15 backs it too
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Col 1:15 backs it too
... who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
That to me acknowledges that he is first. Not best, first. Example: I am my parents' first kid. But DEFINITELY NOT best! (and remember King David? he was almost last-born, yet he was 'a man after God's own heart'!)
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Its hard to NOT agree that Jesus was Jehovahs special son.He entrusted him to represent God as a man on earth cos he was so much like him.Remember he said,If you see me you see the father."And what greater love could 1 have shown than to lay down his life NOT only to save the human race and break up the Devils lies BUT also to VINDICATE his fathers NAME and who the TRUE GOD is!!!
I would think Jehovah would have found that quite special what Jesus did!!
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Apparently,you:
A. Don't believe in the virgin birth
B. Don't believe Jesus was the Son of God (at least not right away....?)
C. Don't believe Jesus preformed miracles
D Don't believe God's Covenant of Christ's Atonement is sufficient
E And you "aren't sure" that God cannot do evil
Yet you refer to Jesus as "Lord" and ply a multitude of biblical questions. I'm sure you're being purposefully elusive about this for your own amusement,but why not just state your beliefs instead of the game.?
You mean I 'have to declare "I believe something" before I can believe'? lol
No,but it would help the conversation if you explained your unique view of Christianity.
I do believe Jesus is the Son of God, but I don't believe He's the only Son. (Sure, the Bible says He is; but HE says we're His brothers-&-sisters!)
Paul also says that we're children of God,but it's important to remember it's through adoption.Check out Romans 8:14-17
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
No one else was begotten of the Father John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So I can only guess that you don't believe in the virgin birth,which means the Bible is in error.And if the Bible is in error,it's not God's Word.And if it's not God's Word,why are you reading it? ???
I'm not sure where you got points C & D ... I think He DID do miracles, but not exactly 'of His own power.'
Well,this vague reply you gave:
Pshh ... yeah, a rabbit out of a hat!...
....didn't exactly inspire confidence.
& God's Grace is sufficient; 'Christ's blood-atonement or whatever' is a way for our carnal minds to understand that.
Again,in the other thread,you were somewhat vague.
And I KNOW God does plenty of 'evil!' Oh, it's never "evil" in the end (it's necessary, like the forge's fire). But it is if you can't change sides---for example, homosexuality is evil. But they try to use the rumor that you're BORN homo- or hetero-, and they reason (promoting that lie as truth) that 'God made the homo's that way.' So God is Evil if you believe the lie.
I don't believe people are "born homosexual" either,(but even if they were,it doesn't excuse them acting on the urge) but God didn't "create" evil.He created the possibility of evil existing by giving His creations Free Will.But that's a far cry from "designing" evil.
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Maybe this will help......maybe....lol!!
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is …
biblehub.com/james/1-13.htm
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, ... 13. when … tempted—tried by solicitation to evil.
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Yes,exactly.God by His very nature is incapable of evil!
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Yes,exactly.God by His very nature is incapable of evil!
If I may butt in quick, can you explain how such things as killing off an entire planet with a flood (women, children, babies, animals murdered), creating a conduit for the creation of an antagonist and his evil lair (satan, hell), and/or creating a pretty faulty planet are not evil aspects? Or is a religious definition of 'evil' different from the typical dictionary term? I'm not trying to be mean here- I'm curious as to how religious people justify this god as not being evil when there are obviously atrocious and barbaric acts by this god throughout the book.
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He wasn't, as He explains (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%209:6-8/&version=KJV) while He heals. He was just another Son of Man, and wasn't the Son of God until His trial before Pilate (or before that, when Simon Peter told Him so).[/b]
I think we do it so that we can achieve similar 'glory' without fearing we might also have to face crucifixion. ???
This is a very strange line of reasoning....You mean He had to "declare" Himself Son of God,to be the Son of God?
That's just messed up theology.
quote amen
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:) :female: wow
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Falconer..you have had that explained to you numerous times....plus you say you went to JW meetings and read their literature.So you know the answer.
Noah warned the people God was going to destroy the system because it had become wicked...NO one cared or listend..they were warned just like A&E were warned of penalty of disobedience.
And God didnt create Satan that way....He chose that path....just like you choose the path NOT to wanna see the good in the Creator but evil......You are alive today because he allowed A&E to have offspring.
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Falconer has had these things explained to him countless times.He's never gonna except anything we say.But,let's take a broader look at the question of evil.God is not someway "evil" by allowing evil to exist.He even allows evil to happen to ultimately bring about a good result despite itself.There are dozens of examples of this,from Joseph sold into slavery to Christ Betrayed by Judas.
God alone can rightly determine who should live and die,who should be punished and rewarded.Our finite intellect cannot possibly fathom the universe as God Himself can.This is basically the message in the book of Job in a nutshell.
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And what greater love could 1 have shown than to lay down his life NOT only to save the human race and break up the Devils lies BUT also to VINDICATE his fathers NAME and who the TRUE GOD is!!!
What greater love? The love He did show, by dying "for His friends" (no 'vindication' or 'salvation' in mind except that!)
it would help the conversation if you explained your unique view of Christianity.
Like Kenneth Copeland (http://www.kcm.org) says, "I don't believe in 'religion,' I BELIEVE IN GOD!" "Christianity" is not God, it is a tool for serving God! Sort of a 'tuning fork' for the choirs of the children of God (Scripture being the music/lyric-sheets)
I do believe Jesus is the Son of God, but I don't believe He's the only Son. (Sure, the Bible says He is; but HE says we're His brothers-&-sisters!)
Paul also says that we're children of God,but it's important to remember it's through adoption.Check out Romans 8:14-17
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
No one else was begotten of the Father John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So I can only guess that you don't believe in the virgin birth,which means the Bible is in error.And if the Bible is in error,it's not God's Word.And if it's not God's Word,why are you reading it? ???
I don't deny His virgin-birth, just like I don't deny yours or mine or anyone else's.
As for the "being adopted"-bit, that's one reason I hold the epistles as lesser-than the Gospels & the Old Testament ... they sort of like those sales-letters (the ones that promise big bucks if you send in money). I remember when Jesus said that God could 'raise up children of Abraham out of the stones on the ground.' Would they only be Abraham's children "by adoption?"
I'm not sure where you got points C & D ... I think He DID do miracles, but not exactly 'of His own power.'
Well,this vague reply you gave:
Pshh ... yeah, a rabbit out of a hat!...
....didn't exactly inspire confidence.
I admit that one might take a little meditation. I think of the scene from Family Guy where Jesus is standing before His followers doing super-obvious sleight-of-hand.
And I KNOW God does plenty of 'evil!' Oh, it's never "evil" in the end (it's necessary, like the forge's fire). But it is if you can't change sides---for example, homosexuality is evil. But they try to use the rumor that you're BORN homo- or hetero-, and they reason (promoting that lie as truth) that 'God made the homo's that way.' So God is Evil if you believe the lie.
I don't believe people are "born homosexual" either,(but even if they were,it doesn't excuse them acting on the urge) but God didn't "create" evil.He created the possibility of evil existing by giving His creations Free Will.But that's a far cry from "designing" evil.
So you don't believe ALL THINGS are created by God?
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Before I begin, I hope neither of you read this as condescending. I'm just trying to have a discussion here and looking for an actual answer to this behavior.
Falconer..you have had that explained to you numerous times....plus you say you went to JW meetings and read their literature.So you know the answer.
Noah warned the people God was going to destroy the system because it had become wicked...NO one cared or listend..they were warned just like A&E were warned of penalty of disobedience.
That's not what I'm asking though. I'm asking what the justification is for the genocide of a planet. Please reread my questions.
And God didnt create Satan that way....He chose that path....just like you choose the path NOT to wanna see the good in the Creator but evil......You are alive today because he allowed A&E to have offspring.
If you believe your god has all knowledge of time and space, then created Satan, please explain how he didn't know the problems would happen. Because allowing such behavior to pass by would be malevolent. It is an evil trait.
And the whole A&E thing- I know I've already told you that it's unlikely we came from incest. It's extremely unlikely we would have survived this long due to loss of intelligence, degradation of physical attributes, and sterility. This is called "The Reduction in Fitness of a Population" if you care to look it up. And I'm uncertain what you mean about not wanting to see the good in the creator when I don't believe in it. I'm only here to debate/discuss the morality of this character.
Falconer has had these things explained to him countless times.He's never gonna except anything we say
Incorrect- using Hitch as an example, you explain the story, but not the morality behind the acts. That's my focus. I'm more than willing to learn, but it seems to always turn into a name-calling or ignoring contest due to supposed insecurities from the lack of having a rational answer.
God is not someway "evil" by allowing evil to exist.He even allows evil to happen to ultimately bring about a good result despite itself.There are dozens of examples of this,from Joseph sold into slavery to Christ Betrayed by Judas.
Here is another example of explaining stories, but not the morality behind the immoral acts presented within them. If I were to willingly release a pack of dangerous individuals with horrendous backgrounds into a neighborhood, are you saying I'm not evil for doing that? I served as a base and conduit to the evil acts that will take place, so I think that would justify me being evil, would it not?
Doing many bad things to get a good result --specifically genocide or condoning terrible ethics-- is not a moral thing to do and it makes no sense that an all-powerful and good god would take such a path. If you think differently, please explain.
God alone can rightly determine who should live and die,who should be punished and rewarded.Our finite intellect cannot possibly fathom the universe as God Himself can.This is basically the message in the book of Job in a nutshell.
This is more on par of what I wanted to discuss! However I do not see how this justifies the atrocities I brought up. It seems like a cheap way to get away w/o explaining the immorality of this god- you don't know that the women and children who were murdered by this giant flood would have turned evil. The relgious just accept that they were going to be and disregard the actual act.
For instance let's say you're watching your local law enforcement storm into your neighbors house, they break things, grab the whole family (inc. women, children) inside and throw them out, beat them senseless and arrest them, maybe even kill them even though they're unarmed, and when you ask why they're doing it, they tell you "Don't worry- it's a long story with lots of twists. You'll be better off w/o these neighbors. You're better off not knowing exactly why.". Would you agree with them and walk back inside your home, never question it, and respect your local law enforcement, or would you question their motives and make a fuss (maybe not to them, but the gov't/other neighbors)?
I'm aware that this example isn't a perfect one ("cops aren't gods!"), but if you could concentrate more on this aspect- the whole concept I'm trying to establish is that the religious don't seem to be questioning anything. It just seems like a blind stance to say "Who am I to question this god?", when questioning things is an important and necessary quality of...well...everything. I mean religious people believe this god gave them this quality, but refuse to exercise it when it seems necessary to justify morality. Such an act is more a vice than a virtue.
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Falconer..you have had that explained to you numerous times....plus you say you went to JW meetings and read their literature.So you know the answer.
Noah warned the people God was going to destroy the system because it had become wicked...NO one cared or listend..they were warned just like A&E were warned of penalty of disobedience.
That's not what I'm asking though. I'm asking what the justification is for the genocide of a planet. Please reread my questions.
I meant to field this one, but JJ distracted me ... God created the entire planet, but the entire planet didn't turn out the way he wanted. So--just like a baker who throws out the entire cake even though it's only over-cooked on the outside--his plan was to destroy the whole thing & start over.
And you remember the covenant he made AFTER the flood?
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I do, but such behavior (even with your baker example) show major flaws and imperfections in skill from a supposed perfect being. The Greek gods were less flawed when paralleled to this specific myth.
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Falconer this i have explained to you also.You dont seem to grasp it.If Jehovah always knew the future it would mean He had NO control of that.He is in complete control.HE can choose when to look ahead or NOT.It wouldnt be fair to HIS creation if HE abused that power.
If HE knew A&E were already going to sin why would HE bother warning them of consequence of rebellion?
So again...HE can choose when to look ahead or NOT...why is that so hard to understand?Its like a woman with a good voice...she can choose WHEN to sing or NOT.
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When God created everything HE decreed,"Everything was GOOD!!"
Rebellion in Eden made God say,"Cursed is the ground on your account!!"
Mankind took himself away from Gods protection by rebelling.His allowance of wickedness among other things have proven disobedience has resulted in this.Yet many want to continue to BLAME God.
Why don't some of you just fess up to the fact you NEVER wanted to be accountable to his laws to begin with?Instead of challenging HIM!!
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it would help the conversation if you explained your unique view of Christianity.
Like Kenneth Copeland (http://www.kcm.org) says, "I don't believe in 'religion,' I BELIEVE IN GOD!" "Christianity" is not God, it is a tool for serving God! Sort of a 'tuning fork' for the choirs of the children of God (Scripture being the music/lyric-sheets)
I don't necessarily disagree with that.I'm non denominational,myself.I would take issue with a lot of Mr Copeland's teachings,however.
I do believe Jesus is the Son of God, but I don't believe He's the only Son. (Sure, the Bible says He is; but HE says we're His brothers-&-sisters!)
Paul also says that we're children of God,but it's important to remember it's through adoption.Check out Romans 8:14-17
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
No one else was begotten of the Father John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So I can only guess that you don't believe in the virgin birth,which means the Bible is in error.And if the Bible is in error,it's not God's Word.And if it's not God's Word,why are you reading it? ???
I don't deny His virgin-birth, just like I don't deny yours or mine or anyone else's.
Are you saying we all have a "virgin birth?"
As for the "being adopted"-bit, that's one reason I hold the epistles as lesser-than the Gospels & the Old Testament ... they sort of like those sales-letters (the ones that promise big bucks if you send in money).
Then I take it you don't believe in the Trinity.God inspired ALL of Scripture through the Holy Spirit.You can't simply pick and choose what you believe is "important" in the Word of God.
I remember when Jesus said that God could 'raise up children of Abraham out of the stones on the ground.' Would they only be Abraham's children "by adoption?"
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Yes,since they weren't conceived from Abraham. Again,you are failing to understand the spiritual aspect of the faith as Nicodemus did.
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
I'm not sure where you got points C & D ... I think He DID do miracles, but not exactly 'of His own power.'
Well,this vague reply you gave:
Pshh ... yeah, a rabbit out of a hat!...
....didn't exactly inspire confidence.
I admit that one might take a little meditation. I think of the scene from Family Guy where Jesus is standing before His followers doing super-obvious sleight-of-hand.
If you believe Jesus did His miracles via slight of hand,you can't possibly believe He's the Savior.Again,why study the Bible if you don't except what it teaches?You might as well take up The Odyssey.I hear it's good.
And I KNOW God does plenty of 'evil!' Oh, it's never "evil" in the end (it's necessary, like the forge's fire). But it is if you can't change sides---for example, homosexuality is evil. But they try to use the rumor that you're BORN homo- or hetero-, and they reason (promoting that lie as truth) that 'God made the homo's that way.' So God is Evil if you believe the lie.
I don't believe people are "born homosexual" either,(but even if they were,it doesn't excuse them acting on the urge) but God didn't "create" evil.He created the possibility of evil existing by giving His creations Free Will.But that's a far cry from "designing" evil.
So you don't believe ALL THINGS are created by God?
Again,God created the potential for evil by giving Man Free Will.So it's not really a yes or no question.
Think of it this way:If you had a son that turned into a mass murderer,did you CREATE evil?
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Also again,Abraham asked God RE Sodom,Is the true God of the universe going to sweep away the righteous with the wicked"?
God allowed Abraham to find righteous people.....he didn't.We know result.
What I think happens here with mans standards is,sexual perversions to many people are OK and they were not to Jehovah.This is the battle deciding what is good and bad as in Eden.
Its Jehovahs universe and he created us...HE gets to decide the rules eventually when Gods kingdom is government on earth as it is in heaven.We aren't forced to accept it now...but are lives must be in subjection to it if we wanna live in Gods government.
Bible says let your yes mean yes and your no mean no.
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coner this i have explained to you also.You dont seem to grasp it.
I do understand it, but (no offense) traditionally you tend to act like you're insulted or insecure when the moral problem shines through or inconsistencies pop up.
If Jehovah always knew the future it would mean He had NO control of that.He is in complete control.HE can choose when to look ahead or NOT.It wouldnt be fair to HIS creation if HE abused that power.
If HE knew A&E were already going to sin why would HE bother warning them of consequence of rebellion?
So again...HE can choose when to look ahead or NOT...why is that so hard to understand?Its like a woman with a good voice...she can choose WHEN to sing or NOT.
Well if the woman knows that singing will potentially help prevent a major atrocity but refuses to do it, that woman is a malevolent person. I'm sure you'd agree with that, correct?
What you're saying here is that your god switches off his ultimate power of knowing everything, he knows he created potential problems that his creations may run into, then gets mad when bad things happen and punishes them. Such qualities are immoral and imperfect. How is this not ignorant and malevolent behavior?
Mankind took himself away from Gods protection by rebelling.His allowance of wickedness among other things have proven disobedience has resulted in this.Yet many want to continue to BLAME God.
Well if you can justify the malevolent behavior from my previous response, this belief would start making a little sense. The problem isn't with the imperfect beings here- it's with a being who says he's perfect yet shows major faults. You seem to only want to see it from one side and refuse to question the other.
Why don't some of you just fess up to the fact you NEVER wanted to be accountable to his laws to begin with?Instead of challenging HIM!!
I'm not accountable to the laws of fictional beings and neither are you. If you can state rational and logical proof of this god's existence, we may get to common ground. However every human reserves the right to challenge/question or blindly follow what they wish.
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You see Falconer that's why its a waste of time discussing this with you when in your last post you mention "fictional God"
Now I know you will answer,"show me proof God exists"...and BOOM!Back to sq 1 with you.
So its like almost getting to the mountain top with you and before you know it...whered that piece of ice come from that I slipped on and I fell back down to the bottom.
I have done my best with all here to explain.Believe me,i know more don't care than do.I am not upset.When you believe God exists you don't approve how hes handled things.Then you say hes fictional till otherwise.
WHEW!!!
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Fictional God???
His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made.” (Romans 1:20) With those words in mind, take a close look at the human body, the earth, the vast universe, the ocean depths. Examine the fascinating world of insects, of plants, of animals—whatever field interests you. Then, using your “power of reason,” ask yourself, ‘What convinces me that there is a Creator?’
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Typical Falconer conversation:
Falconer: "How can you explain the "evil" things God has done in the bible?I honestly want to know what you think about these verses......."
Christian gives biblical answer on the nature of God
Falconer: "That doesn't matter when God is a fictional character!"
And so you see the futility of trying to discuss the bible with Falconer.He wants God to materialize right in front of him and sign a deceleration in front of a notary public before entertaining God's existence.
Better to feed some bread to the ducks than cast pearls to swine.
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You see Falconer that's why its a waste of time discussing this with you when in your last post you mention "fictional God"
Not necessarily. I want to know how religious people justify their beliefs in these stories and justify that their god is good (not a biblical answer, but your own personal moral answer to justify the atrocities). It's much like other works- some people take different things out of stories, but if something isn't adding up, they can ask questions.
Also, someone who thinks a story is real and another person who thinks it's fake can still have a conversation about the nature of the characters within it. You exclaimed that he was real and that I was "challenging him", but I wanted to remind you that most people who don't believe in this god aren't 'challenging' him because there's nothing to challenge. They're questioning the beliefs of the believers and trying to make sense of certain things.
With those words in mind, take a close look at the human body, the earth, the vast universe, the ocean depths. Examine the fascinating world of insects, of plants, of animals—whatever field interests you. Then, using your “power of reason,” ask yourself, ‘What convinces me that there is a Creator?’
And that's an interesting take on it. However your view seems narrow on this- there's a huge gap between "There might be a god/gods out there!" and "This one angry god in this ancient book written by ancient people is the REAL god and I know it to be true!". If you believe this god exists, then prove it. If you can't, we can just stay on the original subject and not discuss that aspect.
When you believe God exists you don't approve how hes handled things.
Then you don't have an answer for the type of immoral behavior we were discussing? That's perfectly alright if you don't! Like I said- I'm just discussing to see if you had some rational/logical answers.
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Typical Falconer conversation:
Falconer: "How can you explain the "evil" things God has done in the bible?I honestly want to know what you think about these verses......."
Christian gives biblical answer on the nature of God
Falconer: "That doesn't matter when God is a fictional character!"
Your rude and insecure behavior (lashing out and not staying on topic) is interesting as always, however this is a lie and it's not what is being discussed. Just read my previous post as it answers what's being discussed.
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First off....i had a chuckle with JJs notary republic advice!!
So Falconer,because the God of the bible didnt react to certain things like,world wars,famines,sickness etc you call him evil?
Again you are familiar with the rebellion in Eden and The book of Job what Satan claimed?
Also are familiar with the Ninevites?Jehovah told Jonah to tell them to repent or they would be punished.They did.God being long suffereing to human sin doesnt matter to you.Also He allows HIS son to be treated and killed and that means nothing to you?
Human suffering doesnt come from God.Yes HE could stop it and in his due time will but because HE doesnt react fast enuff for you HES evil....LOL!
For someone who lives forever this has only been going on for a few days.Dont measure mans timetable with his.
So when you wanna believe God exists it comes down to you dont like the way HE does things.All the love,justice,forgivness,long suffering etc in bible goes OUT the window cos God didnt stop the Vietnam War...<as an example of what u think> Mans political greed starts it and cos God doesnt intervene YET....hes evil!!!LOL!!
Put that Notary republic on hold!!
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So Falconer,because the God of the bible didnt react to certain things like,world wars,famines,sickness etc you call him evil?
We're talking about malevolent behavior, so I guess this is correct. However I was concentrating on specific origin stories and not any man-made problem. You seem to keep diving into that to avoid my questions.
Again you are familiar with the rebellion in Eden and The book of Job what Satan claimed?
I know where you're going with this, but this isn't really what we're talking about. We're talking about moral problems within a god and how a religious person would personally approach and explain the harsh behavior w/o the use of faulty and convenient biblical claims.
Human suffering doesnt come from God.Yes HE could stop it and in his due time will but because HE doesnt react fast enuff for you HES evil....LOL!
Have you read anything I've posted? Because you're rewriting what I've stated now.
So when you wanna believe God exists it comes down to you dont like the way HE does things.All the love,justice,forgivness,long suffering etc in bible goes OUT the window cos God didnt stop the Vietnam War...<as an example of what u think> Mans political greed starts it and cos God doesnt intervene YET....hes evil!!!LOL!!
I'm not sure why you find this humorous? You've gone off the rails here and aren't staying on the subject. I'm not talking about any of this. Your tu quoque and strawman fallacies are apparent since you're avoiding my questions now and attempting to make me look like the bad guy by making things up, even though I'm just asking a few technical questions.
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Falconer..i wanna bring this up too,maybe it will help you understand me....
When a major catastrophe happens like last year in Newtown where 20 kids and and 6 adults are killed by a <in my mind a demonic madman>...yes....i asked God,"when is enuff enuff>?And before you know,something else happens again...and yes..again i ask...when is enuff enuff> Sometimes knowing the truth isnt enuff...you need Jehovahs spirit to comfort you and strengthen you.The bible tells us if we love HIM and obey him he will give us "power beyond what is normal"
Jesus was in so much agony even he cried out "my God why have you forsaken me"Long suffering is fruitage of Gods spirit and a quality we all need and certainly something this satanic system lack.
Using discerment to understand why God has allowed wickedness to prevail isnt easy even if you know why.We need to have faith that Gods way is better than ours and depend on HIM to help us when we are weak or dont understand.Taking baby steps helps.And good association and study help too.Then using that knowledge in our lives.
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When a major catastrophe happens like last year in Newtown where 20 kids and and 6 adults are killed by a <in my mind a demonic madman>...yes....i asked God,"when is enuff enuff>?And before you know,something else happens again...and yes..again i ask...when is enuff enuff> Sometimes knowing the truth isnt enuff...you need Jehovahs spirit to comfort you and strengthen you.The bible tells us if we love HIM and obey him he will give us "power beyond what is normal"
Well if that helps you cope with it, I'm glad.
Using discerment to understand why God has allowed wickedness to prevail isnt easy even if you know why.We need to have faith that Gods way is better than ours and depend on HIM to help us when we are weak or dont understand.Taking baby steps helps.And good association and study help too.Then using that knowledge in our lives.
So you're saying you don't have a logical or rational answer as to why you believe this god deserves worship (besides the feel-good aspect), but you're just ignoring the immoral conundrums and concentrating on the good feelings?
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I am glad to be alive.I dont wanna die.Death is an enemy of man.
Read Rev 4:11
Even if i question Jehovah.....i know in the long haul obeying HIM is for the benefit of us if we want to live.I am human i realize and also a sinner.Leaning on our own understanding doesnt benefit us....To earthling man his way does not belong says scripture in Jeremiah.
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If God were to rip each and every shred of evil from this world,Falconer,you wouldn't be here.
And guess what?Neither would I,or every living being on the planet.I don't know why Free Will is such a difficult concept for some.
Mull over this parable from Jesus: Matt 13:24-43
Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
“‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
“‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.
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it would help the conversation if you explained your unique view of Christianity.
Like Kenneth Copeland (http://www.kcm.org) says, "I don't believe in 'religion,' I BELIEVE IN GOD!" "Christianity" is not God, it is a tool for serving God! Sort of a 'tuning fork' for the choirs of the children of God (Scripture being the music/lyric-sheets)
I don't necessarily disagree with that.I'm non denominational,myself.I would take issue with a lot of Mr Copeland's teachings,however.
Right, the whole Prosperity Gospel thing. Profitable, but with the risk of falling into worship OF prosperity ... we can start a whole `nother topic!
I do believe Jesus is the Son of God, but I don't believe He's the only Son. (Sure, the Bible says He is; but HE says we're His brothers-&-sisters!)
Paul also says that we're children of God,but it's important to remember it's through adoption.Check out Romans 8:14-17
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
No one else was begotten of the Father John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So I can only guess that you don't believe in the virgin birth,which means the Bible is in error.And if the Bible is in error,it's not God's Word.And if it's not God's Word,why are you reading it? ???
I don't deny His virgin-birth, just like I don't deny yours or mine or anyone else's.
Are you saying we all have a "virgin birth?"[/quote]
You're saying we all must be 'born again.' What shameful act brings about THAT birth?
As for the "being adopted"-bit, that's one reason I hold the epistles as lesser-than the Gospels & the Old Testament ... they sort of like those sales-letters (the ones that promise big bucks if you send in money).
Then I take it you don't believe in the Trinity.
LOL ... you could say the 'trinity' is one of the very reasons I hold that the Bible is UNWORTHY of 'the Word of God'---Jesus originally said baptism was only in 'His name'; a priest named Tertullian submitted that He 'should've said' "the Father, Son & Holy Ghost," & some Vatican council made that change.
I admit that one might take a little meditation. I think of the scene from Family Guy where Jesus is standing before His followers doing super-obvious sleight-of-hand.
If you believe Jesus did His miracles via slight of hand,you can't possibly believe He's the Savior.
Mweeh? That's like saying 'you can't possibly believe sex causes birth if you believe *bleep* makes money'!
If you had a son that turned into a mass murderer,did you CREATE evil? [/b]
That's getting into some 'Alice Miller'-stuff! She believes that parents raise bad children because they weren't themselves 'acknowledged properly' when they were children (because THEIR parents didn't acknowledge THEM, because THEIR parents didn't acknowledge them ... I guess we could go back to 'Adam not acknowledged by God' :P)
Falconer: "How can you explain the "evil" things God has done in the bible?I honestly want to know what you think about these verses......."
Christian gives biblical answer on the nature of God
Falconer: "That doesn't matter when God is a fictional character!"
And so you see the futility of trying to discuss the bible with Falconer.
This shows the reason-why some will never understand: Many claim that we serve a reasonable God, but then people can show how He is totally unreasonable in some cases. But 'children can understand,' because to them 'fictional characters' are just as real as non-fictional (both are unpredictable people who can DO ... THINGS)
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If God were to rip each and every shred of evil from this world,Falconer,you wouldn't be here.
Unless you and I gained supernatural abilities to see if we existed w/o common evils, you cannot state something like this. Butterfly effect. Besides, the concept and aspects of evil change throughout history, so this statement seems anti-Heuristic and only would lead to pointless speculation.
I don't know why Free Will is such a difficult concept for some.
Actually I could easily argue that free will is probably the most difficult philosophical concept to grasp and has been for centuries! I appreciate the researched bible quote, but from reading it, it only gives a very simplistic example of black-or-white thinking and does not really apply to free will that much. It mentions very few factors in play and leaves many questionable gaps, whereas the whole concept of free will has to do with an immense amount of factors being present and how (or if) that effects the individuals judgement in the end.
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I am glad to be alive.I dont wanna die.Death is an enemy of man.
I am too! I don't want to die, but I realize and accept that it is inevitable. I don't look at death as being an enemy- I look at it as a return to what I was before I existed. And for me to say I know what I was before and will be after my life would be asinine. I only wish others would cope with the potential truth and have the same respect for each individual instead of claiming they know what happens after they've died.
Even if i question Jehovah.....i know in the long haul obeying HIM is for the benefit of us if we want to live.I am human i realize and also a sinner.Leaning on our own understanding doesnt benefit us....To earthling man his way does not belong says scripture in Jeremiah.
I realize that mankind has a rough history, but imo there's no reason to squander your existence hoping for a better life after this one (unless the idea comforts you).
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So you look forward to being dust..eh Falconer?
I hope theres no vacuum cleaners or Endust in your next life!!
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Well,mythociate,I guess there's nothing left to say at this point.
All biblical misconceptions begin when one answers this question wrong: Jesus asked "Who do you say that I am?"
Since you have acknowledged YOUR Jesus to be a deceiving trickster,not preforming actual wonders,not born of a virgin,not the fulfillment of prophesy (I'm afraid to ask what you perception of the Resurrection is.Since you seem to have a strong streak of Naturalism in you,I'm willing to guess it won't match the biblical account) and not the only begotten Son of God,you DO NOT have the Jesus of the Bible.I truly hope you someday embrace the Christ of the bible.
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I am glad to be alive.I dont wanna die.Death is an enemy of man.
I am too! I don't want to die, but I realize and accept that it is inevitable. I don't look at death as being an enemy- I look at it as a return to what I was before I existed. And for me to say I know what I was before and will be after my life would be asinine. I only wish others would cope with the potential truth and have the same respect for each individual instead of claiming they know what happens after they've died.
Even if i question Jehovah.....i know in the long haul obeying HIM is for the benefit of us if we want to live.I am human i realize and also a sinner.Leaning on our own understanding doesnt benefit us....To earthling man his way does not belong says scripture in Jeremiah.
I realize that mankind has a rough history, but imo there's no reason to squander your existence hoping for a better life after this one (unless the idea comforts you).
So you look forward to being dust..eh Falconer?
I hope theres no vacuum cleaners or Endust in your next life!!
'We do not die, but sleep' (I think the Bible (http://www.biblegateway.com/) says somewhere)---of course, that excludes those of us who are cremated or otherwise destroyed upon 'passing away'. Death is totally 'evitable,' but life after death is a painful-painful chore (at least while one is healing from the effects of the "death" :BangHead:)
And--speaking of :BangHead:-- ... ( :) ) ...
Well,mythociate,I guess there's nothing left to say at this point.
All biblical misconceptions begin when one answers this question wrong: Jesus asked "Who do you say that I am?"
Since you have acknowledged YOUR Jesus to be a deceiving trickster,not preforming actual wonders,not born of a virgin,not the fulfillment of prophesy (I'm afraid to ask what you perception of the Resurrection is.Since you seem to have a strong streak of Naturalism in you,I'm willing to guess it won't match the biblical account) and not the only begotten Son of God,you DO NOT have the Jesus of the Bible.I truly hope you someday embrace the Christ of the bible.
What you call "misconceptions" I call 'different conceptions' ;) I don't think I stated He 'didn't do those things' (although I'm sure if you squint your eyes & turn your head funny I DID say that ... you could also say that JESUS HIMSELF said that, saying "I do nothing of myself ...") ... I think I'm saying that He's not THE ONLY ONE. Maybe He was first, but only so His disciples could follow after Him.
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So you look forward to being dust..eh Falconer?
I hope theres no vacuum cleaners or Endust in your next life!!
I don't look forward to death. I'm just realistic and accept that it's going to happen! I only worry about getting resurrected by some evil company in the future and being a worker-drone like the Stalkers in Halflife 2! lol
http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Stalker
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jesus was a man who never did anything wrong to any human being he never judge never committed a crime against any of the human race he was all about peace, he never complain he did as GOD instructed him and he was pure from head to toe :angel11:
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jesus was a man who never did anything wrong to any human being he never judge never committed a crime against any of the human race he was all about peace, he never complain he did as GOD instructed him and he was pure from head to toe :angel11:
So, what has that to do with thee?
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you have some praying to do mr....if you think for one minute that god is not real and just another man maybe you should pray and ask for the truth, remember if you ask you shall receive...best of luck to you.
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you have some praying to do mr....if you think for one minute that god is not real and just another man maybe you should pray and ask for the truth, remember if you ask you shall receive...best of luck to you.
Small minds confine God to either exist or not exist. Why can't He do both? I'll tell you why: because you can't imagine Him doing both :P And "if you ask you shall receive"? Not quite. You remember that He was saying this to His inner circle, the ones whom He had trained to go with Our Father's plan. If THEY ask, they're probably asking along the lines of God's plan. If WE ask, there's a 359/360-chance that "we ask amiss!"
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you have some praying to do mr....if you think for one minute that god is not real and just another man maybe you should pray and ask for the truth, remember if you ask you shall receive...best of luck to you.
Small minds confine God to either exist or not exist. Why can't He do both? I'll tell you why: because you can't imagine Him doing both :P And "if you ask you shall receive"? Not quite. You remember that He was saying this to His inner circle, the ones whom He had trained to go with Our Father's plan. If THEY ask, they're probably asking along the lines of God's plan. If WE ask, there's a 359/360-chance that "we ask amiss!"
(http://i.imgur.com/eIfe3eA.gif)
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I do not know if people thought that Jesus was better than other humans, but I know that he was more knowledgeable.