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Title: Proof that God exists
Post by: totosli_08 on November 29, 2009, 08:35:36 pm
there is many talks about god in here..and of course im a firm belive of the father , son and the holy ghost ....even thow i know i dont have to proof this to anybody because god can only do it for you himself ....im just doing this because people keep sayingthere is no sintific eveindece that god exists .....and they always post proof of evolution soo... let me start with my evidence ..this is long.. so if you feel like sitting here.. reading this go head...i strongly reccomend you do ..ive been telling people that i did resererch in school on this but i never got around to hit so heres my  evidence ..or my research whatever ..you want to call it ..and so im going to shareit with you




Proof


 main point : Nothing can only create Nothing before the universe begain somthing must have always existed

  1.  the first law of thermodynamics:Energy is eternal it confirms that energy cannot be  created or destroyed  no begging or uncreated or no end  thats what eternal means  ... you cant  claim that this energy existed  ni a known universe because  scientist have proven that the universe didint always exist  and this energy source that was presence before the universe begain  had to have power beyond anything  we can begain to imagine considering it had to tranfer its energy to billions of stars and galaxies  , a seperate  eternal  energy source that exists outside of the universe had to have supplied or tranfered its energy onto the universe because again the universe did not exist  proven again by scentist themselfs  it is not unreasonable to assume this anormus energy was god  we resonably have two options  to determine this energy , it could dumb , uncontious and vague energy source
witch is illagitamite seeing as thow  we can observe  complexity order and desghn through out the universe  the most logical ansewer is thatgod created the universe  if you dont agree...then your just being unresonable about the possiblity of god



 2. here is an actuell scientist  who was an athiest that sought out to see if god exists and he found that he does



ROCKVILLE, Maryland (CNN) -- I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views.

As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan.

I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe, doctor?", I began searching for answers.

I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to answer questions such as "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we die?" (Watch Francis Collins discuss how he came to believe in God )

I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible. As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, "Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative."

But reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page. Ultimately, a leap of faith is required.

For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more about God's character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose claims about being God's son seemed to demand a decision about whether he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus.

So, some have asked, doesn't your brain explode? Can you both pursue an understanding of how life works using the tools of genetics and molecular biology, and worship a creator God? Aren't evolution and faith in God incompatible? Can a scientist believe in miracles like the resurrection?

Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40 percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.

But why couldn't this be God's plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer.

I have found there is a wonderful harmony in the complementary truths of science and faith. The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. God can be found in the cathedral or in the laboratory. By investigating God's majestic and awesome creation, science can actually be a means of worship.


 AMIT GOSWAMI
3. Before you read any further, stop and close your eyes for a moment. Now consider the following question: for the moment your eyes were closed, did the world still exist even though you weren't conscious of it? How do you know? If this sounds like the kind of unanswerable brain teaser your Philosophy 101 professor used to employ to stretch your philosophical imagination, you might be surprised to discover that there are actually physicists at reputable universities who believe they have answered this question—and their answer, believe it or not, is no.

Now consider something even more intriguing. Imagine for a moment the entire history of the universe. According to all the data scientists have been able to gather, it exploded into existence some fifteen billion years ago, setting the stage for a cosmic dance of energy and light that continues to this day. Now imagine the history of planet Earth. An amorphous cloud of dust emerging out of that primordial fireball, it slowly coalesced into a solid orb, found its way into gravitational orbit around the sun, and through a complex interaction of light and gases over billions of years, generated an atmosphere and a biosphere capable of not only giving birth to, but sustaining and proliferating, life.

Now imagine that none of the above ever happened. Consider instead the possibility that the entire story only existed as an abstract potential—a cosmic dream among countless other cosmic dreams—until, in that dream, life somehow evolved to the point that a conscious, sentient being came into existence. At that moment, solely because of the conscious observation of that individual, the entire universe, including all of the history leading up to that point, suddenly came into being. Until that moment, nothing had actually ever happened. In that moment, fifteen billion years happened. If this sounds like nothing more than a complicated backdrop for a science fiction story or a secular version of one of the world's great creation myths, hold on to your hat. According to physicist Amit Goswami, the above description is a scientifically viable explanation of how the universe came into being.

(will continue on next page ..cuz it excedds the maximumm linth)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on November 29, 2009, 09:54:54 pm
main point : Nothing can only create Nothing before the universe begain somthing must have always existed

Solves nothing in the equation.  What created the entity that "always existed?"  What created the entity that created that entity?  How could your entity have originated from nothing?  Why doesn't your entity need a creator -- because you say so?

Placing a random infinity into an equation and getting an answer in no way solves the equation.  I can prove 1=2 if I use an abstract infinity, but 1 clearly does not equal 2.

On another note, there was no "before the universe."  Time began at the moment of origin.  You cannot have a "before time."

Quote
here is an actuell scientist  who was an athiest that sought out to see if god exists and he found that he does

Francis Collins is a very smart man.

Nothing in the article you posted proved anything.  Everything he said was nothing more than a religious belief based on faith.

On a random note, his idea that the premise of atheism is purely "there is absolutely no god" is as wrong as anything can be.  The overwhelming majority of atheists do not hold an absolute stance of that nature.  The overwhelming majority are fully content with saying "I don't know, but I personally lack belief."  Lacking belief is in no way similar to saying "there is no god" or believing there is no god.  They're extremely different stances on the question.

Quote
AMIT GOSWAMI
3. Before you read any further, stop and close your eyes for a moment. Now consider the following question: for the moment your eyes were closed, did the world still exist even though you weren't conscious of it? How do you know? If this sounds like the kind of unanswerable brain teaser your Philosophy 101 professor used to employ to stretch your philosophical imagination, you might be surprised to discover that there are actually physicists at reputable universities who believe they have answered this question—and their answer, believe it or not, is no.

Now consider something even more intriguing. Imagine for a moment the entire history of the universe. According to all the data scientists have been able to gather, it exploded into existence some fifteen billion years ago, setting the stage for a cosmic dance of energy and light that continues to this day. Now imagine the history of planet Earth. An amorphous cloud of dust emerging out of that primordial fireball, it slowly coalesced into a solid orb, found its way into gravitational orbit around the sun, and through a complex interaction of light and gases over billions of years, generated an atmosphere and a biosphere capable of not only giving birth to, but sustaining and proliferating, life.

Now imagine that none of the above ever happened. Consider instead the possibility that the entire story only existed as an abstract potential—a cosmic dream among countless other cosmic dreams—until, in that dream, life somehow evolved to the point that a conscious, sentient being came into existence. At that moment, solely because of the conscious observation of that individual, the entire universe, including all of the history leading up to that point, suddenly came into being. Until that moment, nothing had actually ever happened. In that moment, fifteen billion years happened. If this sounds like nothing more than a complicated backdrop for a science fiction story or a secular version of one of the world's great creation myths, hold on to your hat. According to physicist Amit Goswami, the above description is a scientifically viable explanation of how the universe came into being.

The good ole Watchmaker Analogy.  People still use this as evidence of a god(s)?  Quite disheartening.  Would have thought somebody would come up with something a tad bit better than this by now.

Google criticisms of the watchmaker analogy.  It's logical foundation is quite lacking to say the least.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: totosli_08 on November 29, 2009, 09:58:42 pm
ok
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on November 30, 2009, 10:16:00 am
Turn the tables folks...........think about it.........try to prove God DOESN'T exist-that is FAR more difficult than proving He doesn't, for good reason! :)


Prove the giant cotton candy monster living in my closet doesn't exist.  You can't, that must mean he's really there!


You don't prove things don't exist.  It's logically impossible with the exception of a tautology or within a vacuum, and reality places us within neither of those.

The burden of proof does not lie in the hands of those who do not believe your extraordinary claims.  The burden of proof lies in the hands of those who make the claims.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: totosli_08 on November 30, 2009, 11:03:40 am
 mabe the gient cotton candy monster does exist you never know
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: jaba187 on December 02, 2009, 12:24:23 am
Turn the tables folks...........think about it.........try to prove God DOESN'T exist-that is FAR more difficult than proving He doesn't, for good reason! :)

That is easy, the process of Evolution, every human alive today is from the great work of evolution. All you have to do to find proof on this is watch the History Channel!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: InKane on December 02, 2009, 12:53:41 am
Quote
You don't prove things don't exist.  It's logically impossible with the exception of a tautology or within a vacuum, and reality places us within neither of those.

The burden of proof does not lie in the hands of those who do not believe your extraordinary claims.  The burden of proof lies in the hands of those who make the claims.

My thoughts exactly! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 02, 2009, 10:35:31 am
Turn the tables folks...........think about it.........try to prove God DOESN'T exist-that is FAR more difficult than proving He doesn't, for good reason! :)

That is easy, the process of Evolution, every human alive today is from the great work of evolution. All you have to do to find proof on this is watch the History Channel!

Evolution does not disprove the existence of a supernatural being.  Evolution makes zero claims about the origin of life or the origin of the universe.  Evolution makes zero claims about the existence of god(s).  To say the theory of evolution is prime evidence of there being no theistic god(s) is to misrepresent the theory.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: bschumacher on December 02, 2009, 10:46:27 am
I have no doubt that a power greater than myself exists. That's it. Anyone who claims to know exactly what form that power takes is just making stuff up.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: acurtsinger2 on December 02, 2009, 10:49:42 am
 :angel11:
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: GoGoKokiGo on December 02, 2009, 10:53:36 am
:angel11:

:angel12:
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: AmyTrivitt on December 03, 2009, 09:58:57 pm
Honestly people, how many posts are you guys going to do about GOD, which GOD are you referring too?? Furthermore you will not get anywhere cramming this stuff down peoples throats on a forum. Live and let live. Or go to church and preach to those whom actually want to hear it.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: frosty11x on December 19, 2009, 07:59:38 am
Honestly people, how many posts are you guys going to do about GOD, which GOD are you referring too?? Furthermore you will not get anywhere cramming this stuff down peoples throats on a forum. Live and let live. Or go to church and preach to those whom actually want to hear it.


First of all, there is only one God, there are many false gods though. God created the heavens and the earth and everything that is and has been. It would be pointless to say this in church because they all believe it anyways. We are trying to get the message out there to save everyone from their sins before it is too late, I guess if we can't get you to come to touch with reality, then that is your choice. Once you die, and figure out that we were right, it will be too late and you will go into Hell FOREVER. We are trying to save you from that eternal suffering.


Secondly, false gods are a distraction from the truth, put into the world by Satan himself. Satan wants your soul to burn with him in Hell and he is trying to get as many souls to suffer with him as possible all because he wanted to be above God in the beginning.

Finally, God has always existed, was never created, does not have an age, He has always been. He created the earth and people and all of it so that He would not be lonely. He wanted someone to talk with, someone to walk with, someone to adore him. God LOVES you. No matter what you've done, no matter what you will do. He loves you. He sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. God wants you to come to heaven to be with him, but you can not go to heaven unless you believe in him and accept him as your personal savior and let him come into your heart.



We can not make the decision for you, to save you from your sins and from Hell, but all we can do is get the info out there to you, the truth, and whether or not you accept it, is not our fault but your own. If you do not accept God then you WILL go to Hell when you die, there is no avoiding it. If you don't believe us now, after you die you will find out that we were right, and you will have wished you could go back and make him Lord over your life, you will want everyone to know that HE DOES EXIST, but you will not be able to tell anyone or let anyone know, you will be in ETERNAL SUFFERING, and we can not do anything about it. It is futile to argue with you guys about this because you have made up your mind and we have made up ours, and there will be no way to persuade either person to a different side. Have a happy life and I pray that God will show himself to you before it is too late.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MistyM3 on December 19, 2009, 10:34:02 am
If you believe in God then you do not question anything... you don't have to explain anything to anyone. I don't need proof to know he exists. If you spend your life questioning everything then you'll be more confused about your life when you should just be living. God wants us to live our life and show that we can gain knowledge and experience before we go to heaven. We have to see the bad before the good so we can appreciate it more!!!!! That's the reason we were put on earth so that we will appreciate Heaven more. Thanks for reading.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 19, 2009, 10:37:25 am
If you believe in God then you do not question anything... you don't have to explain anything to anyone. I don't need proof to know he exists. If you spend your life questioning everything then you'll be more confused about your life when you should just be living. God wants us to live our life and show that we can gain knowledge and experience before we go to heaven. We have to see the bad before the good so we can appreciate it more!!!!! That's the reason we were put on earth so that we will appreciate Heaven more. Thanks for reading.

-cough- LAME
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: mlmhome on December 19, 2009, 10:46:22 am
just look at the earth where we live in!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 19, 2009, 10:50:24 am
Honestly people, how many posts are you guys going to do about GOD, which GOD are you referring too?? Furthermore you will not get anywhere cramming this stuff down peoples throats on a forum. Live and let live. Or go to church and preach to those whom actually want to hear it.


First of all, there is only one God, there are many false gods though. God created the heavens and the earth and everything that is and has been. It would be pointless to say this in church because they all believe it anyways. We are trying to get the message out there to save everyone from their sins before it is too late, I guess if we can't get you to come to touch with reality, then that is your choice. Once you die, and figure out that we were right, it will be too late and you will go into Hell FOREVER. We are trying to save you from that eternal suffering.


Secondly, false gods are a distraction from the truth, put into the world by Satan himself. Satan wants your soul to burn with him in Hell and he is trying to get as many souls to suffer with him as possible all because he wanted to be above God in the beginning.

Finally, God has always existed, was never created, does not have an age, He has always been. He created the earth and people and all of it so that He would not be lonely. He wanted someone to talk with, someone to walk with, someone to adore him. God LOVES you. No matter what you've done, no matter what you will do. He loves you. He sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. God wants you to come to heaven to be with him, but you can not go to heaven unless you believe in him and accept him as your personal savior and let him come into your heart.



We can not make the decision for you, to save you from your sins and from Hell, but all we can do is get the info out there to you, the truth, and whether or not you accept it, is not our fault but your own. If you do not accept God then you WILL go to Hell when you die, there is no avoiding it. If you don't believe us now, after you die you will find out that we were right, and you will have wished you could go back and make him Lord over your life, you will want everyone to know that HE DOES EXIST, but you will not be able to tell anyone or let anyone know, you will be in ETERNAL SUFFERING, and we can not do anything about it. It is futile to argue with you guys about this because you have made up your mind and we have made up ours, and there will be no way to persuade either person to a different side. Have a happy life and I pray that God will show himself to you before it is too late.


ARE YOU SERIOUS? XD HAHAHAHAHHAA!!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: frosty11x on December 19, 2009, 10:54:20 am
Why? What about it? Of course I'm serious.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 19, 2009, 10:56:13 am
You aren't going to get anywhere sounding like a radicalists. I'm also sure, in every religion, it doesn't say that people are going to go to hell because they don't believe in god. You really are brainwashed. Open your mind you fool.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: frosty11x on December 19, 2009, 11:00:49 am
Well like I said it is futile arguing with you people, I'll just let you find out when you die that I was right...
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 19, 2009, 11:02:55 am
My 'god' you are the biggest tool I have ever talked with..today.  :BangHead:
Here is an example; If a baby comes out knowing nothing, then dies for some reason, still knowing nothing, because it hasn't accepted god as it's savior or whatever, should he/she expect to go to 'hell' because it didn't have the chance to take the golden straps of gods chariot? No, you and your religious ways are illogical in reality. People who live in REALITY are smart because they aren't persuaded by such dumb thoughts.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 19, 2009, 11:04:55 am
(and you want to know what is extra nice? because I don't believe in god I can sound like an *bleep*, and I know it will have no adverse affect on my death or anything else in life, because it isn't wrong, it's just percieved as wrong, there isn't some great papi who'll slap my hands in the end of time and send me to hell.)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on December 19, 2009, 11:18:37 am
Quote
Honestly people, how many posts are you guys going to do about GOD, which GOD are you referring too?? Furthermore you will not get anywhere cramming this stuff down peoples throats on a forum. Live and let live. Or go to church and preach to those whom actually want to hear it.

Yes. These religious posts are getting really annoying. And they always end up making religious people look delusional which hurts their community as a whole. They should keep it to themselves.

Quote
First of all, there is only one God, there are many false gods though. God created the heavens and the earth and everything that is and has been. It would be pointless to say this in church because they all believe it anyways. We are trying to get the message out there to save everyone from their sins before it is too late, I guess if we can't get you to come to touch with reality, then that is your choice. Once you die, and figure out that we were right, it will be too late and you will go into Hell FOREVER. We are trying to save you from that eternal suffering.

I find this very offensive. You damn everyone who does not believe the same as you. Do me a favor...put your money where your mouth is and show me proof this is true. If you need to open the bible and show this as your source as proof, congratulations. You fail at arguing as you do at life.

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Finally, God has always existed, was never created, does not have an age, He has always been. He created the earth and people and all of it so that He would not be lonely.

You actually think an omnipotent being who you claim can do all these wonderous things has problems with being lonely? Oh wait...he's GOD! We don't need an explanation!

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If you believe in God then you do not question anything... you don't have to explain anything to anyone. I don't need proof to know he exists. If you spend your life questioning everything then you'll be more confused about your life when you should just be living.

So your logic here is...go with the lobotomy instead of questioning things throughout your life? Lame.

Quote
You really are brainwashed. Open your mind you fool.

You're about to see a nonstop 50 paged thread here about how people know god exists with every simple and disproven method in the book. Saddle up!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 19, 2009, 01:39:29 pm
Why? What about it? Of course I'm serious.

Everything that occurs or exists in this world came from your god.  Don't pin the blame on "false gods" and "satan."  Absolutely nothing can happen in this world without confirmation from your god.  Deal with it.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 20, 2009, 11:34:46 am
People want an explanation and that is what Science tries to do. Science and people that do not believe in God will have Weird and Freaky things happen or Incredible, Supernatural, Out of this World happenings and they will just say it is a Coincidence. Sorry, but it is not just a Coincidence.

They cannot explain these events through Science without wondering themselves.

I do believe since we are human beings and there are other life forms on this Earth and there is a big ball of energy called the Sun and many Suns which are far away and look like Stars and that we are Intelligent and all this just "happened" then it is completely possible for a Supreme Being to exist.

A being that can control things with their mind, make thing happen, know of the future.

Why not, look at humans, we have things like an internet, cars, electricity and many other things and we or some only use 10% of our minds.

Prove Aliens don't exist, you can't. You would have to search every inch of the Universe.

Admit it...You don't know and might never know, so please stop acting like the evolution Theory and adaption dismissed thing like this from being real.

We are in physical Form, sure we will adapt to our surroundings and Adavance but that by no means makes it logical to assume because of that a God doesn't exist.

You are only human so please don't act like you know everything and keep learning.

"People want an explanation and that is what Science tries to do. Science and people that do not believe in God will have Weird and Freaky things happen or Incredible, Supernatural, Out of this World happenings and they will just say it is a Coincidence. Sorry, but it is not just a Coincidence."
Are you stupid? If people had freaky, incredible, supernatural, out of this world; things happen to them; THAT'D OBVIOUSLY MAKE THEM BELIEVE IN GOD. I can't believe you really just said that. I mean WOW! You must really be dumb!

OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ONLY USE 10% OF THEIR BRAIN! LMAO XD hahahahahah

Believing that there is a god JUST because we exist is the most IGNORANT thing I have ever heard next to people saying their lifes are worth more than animals! YOU are an ignoramus, sir.
SO, because I crap and recycle food and my body works in sycn, I should believe there is a god! By your theory that is. Because, I mean it is possible I can take a crap, so why not believe in the possibility god?? LMAO XD

ALSO, YOUR IDEA OF GOD SOUNDS RETARDED. IF THERE WAS A GOD, HE CREATED THE FUTURE, HE MAKES EVERYTHING HAPPEN, AND HE DOESN'T HAVE A F**KING MIND! HE CREATED THE IDEA OF "MINDS", MY GOD YOU ARE A MORON!

LMAO AND THEN YOU USE ALIENS AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW WE CAN'T DISPROVE GOD?!??!?!?!?! MY LORD, I HOPE PEOPLE WHO DO BELIEVE IN GOD HAVE BETTER REASONS THAN YOU DO!

I MEAN BY YOUR THEORY, SINCE IT'S POSSIBLE AND WE CAN'T PROVE IT WRONG, IT MUST BE TRUE??? ARROGANCE IS THE FRUIT OF ALL RETARDS.
NOBODY IS SAYING, BECAUSE EVOLUTION HAS BEEN PROVEN, THERE IS NO GOD! You just tossed that out there, further sounding like a ***.
IF EVERYBODY HAD THE OPTION OF CONSIDERING GOD AS A POSSIBILITY OFF OF YOUR THEORIES WE WOULD BE LIVING IN A WORLD OF ATHEISTS!

NOW I WILL REPEATE THIS ONE LAST TIME; YOU SIR, REALLY ARE INFACT A MORON. I WOULD STOP TALKING NOW IF I WERE YOU, NOT THAT YOU DON'T ALREADY LOOK LIKE A DIPS***.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: smylyfayce on December 20, 2009, 12:12:29 pm
God exists everywhere. God is not a fleshly human being, and I think that is why God's existence comes into question so much. The human population has this thing where if you can't see it, hear it, or taste it, it doesn't exist. You can not see God with your eyes because he is not a fleshly human being, but through his works that he provides everyday to us all shows that he does exist as a powerful spirit being. You can not see the oxygen that you breathe, but you know that oxygen exists because you are breathing. You can not see wind when it blows outside, but you know it exists because the leaves and trees sway back and forth. God exists, and the Bible is a clear source for referencing his existence. The Bible is not a book made of fictional stories. The Bible consist of real accounts that took place thousands and thousands of years ago.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 20, 2009, 12:44:14 pm
By your theory I should consider the possiblity of the cookie monster having his own empire on some distant planet where he made hermit the fog his bagboy and mr.rogers his war general.

It isn't that I can't see god that doesn't make me believe in 'him/her', it is the whole idea being as far fetched as the one I just stated.

So because we are alive, and we breath, and the world works in the ways it does, there has to be a god?

Wrong.

The fact that you also say the bible, written by man, explains god, and that there was a human being who was gods son(Jesus), sounds even more retarded then any other statement on this forum. If there is a god, he isn't confined to just your religion, so your book would obviously be wrong, if there is a god.


And the fact that you consider the bible real because of accounts that happened thousands of years ago shows just how much more close minded you are. Many things in the bible have been proven wrong, not to mention many of their stories are in other religious writings of other religions, and you claim those are wrong as well since you claim only christianity, so that would make the bible wrong at the same time...I mean I could go on and  on to show you how arrogent you sound, but I think I made my point.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on December 20, 2009, 12:44:57 pm
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smylyfayces post

Are you quoting Star Wars or something? The first few sentences sound like Yoda speaking of the force! The problem with your argument is you act as if these things are magical and untouchable. We have the ability to interact with the things you've listed through science so we know they exist--for instance we can use wind as a power source. Can we interact with god on this level? I'll be nice and say yes on an individual level, but at the same time this is delusional and can sway loose minds so I'd suggest keeping it to yourself as most decent people would tell you. Everyone is entitled to what they believe, but pushing it on others as proof is despicable.

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God exists, and the Bible is a clear source for referencing his existence. The Bible is not a book made of fictional stories. The Bible consist of real accounts that took place thousands and thousands of years ago.

Like a talking snake, a perfect world, a massive engineering project built by one man that saved every animal on earth, a man who gets super-strength through his hair, and a jewish carpenter zombie who's really god and gods son. This is just the tip of the iceburg I'm afraid. I honestly wouldn't want to use this book as a source he exists when he's a genocidal maniac throughout it. We need some actual proof.

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MorbidRaccoons Post

Okay...granted most of her posts that are of an argumentative nature make little sense...don't be a jerk!
And yes, the above sentence is kind of hypocritical. Sorry.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: totosli_08 on December 20, 2009, 01:10:15 pm
i stop Debating with People On this Post ..because we cant convence people   that dont believe in jesus that there is one and they cant convience us that theres not..so only they can diecide for themselfs all we can do is help and go on our way  and let god take care of it ....im pretty positive thats  statement is going to start a controversy but o well
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 20, 2009, 01:36:22 pm
Let god take care of it? So you're saying we are going to go to hell again? Very offensive, even if it is because you are blinded by your religion. To subject that as a possibility to anyone is wrong. Not that I believe in hell, but you are implying that if there is one, we are going there. :P You know what is funny? I know atheists who donate, are all around good people, have rich loyal families with lots of love, and so fourth. Are they going to hell because they don't believe in god? Even though they are as close to 'pure' as anyone can get nowadays, but just because they believe in god they're going to hell? ARROGANCE I TELL YOU!  >:(
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: totosli_08 on December 20, 2009, 01:51:56 pm
Let god take care of it? So you're saying we are going to go to hell again? Very offensive, even if it is because you are blinded by your religion. To subject that as a possibility to anyone is wrong. Not that I believe in hell, but you are implying that if there is one, we are going there. :P You know what is funny? I know atheists who donate, are all around good people, have rich loyal families with lots of love, and so fourth. Are they going to hell because they don't believe in god? Even though they are as close to 'pure' as anyone can get nowadays, but just because they believe in god they're going to hell? ARROGANCE I TELL YOU!  >:(


i never said anyone is going to hell ..im not the judge of that god is ..i dont judge people  athesiets are  human beings like anybody else ....so obviously you didint read my post right..your macking it seem like i said  god is so evil and he just sends everyone to hell ..and christians are down right stupied for beliveing in him ..what i was sayyyyinngg was once again god decides  that because there his people not mine.. and im not bout to argue with anybody about there belief ..you believe what you want..and i belive what i want  ..honestly i dont give a crap... you do you  and live the life you want to because in the end god cares about everyone ..even the ones who dont believe
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on December 20, 2009, 03:07:52 pm
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The people on this site that don't believe in God are the meanest most hateful and rude bunch I have ever come in contact with.

If you judge people according to their text in this forum, avoid cities like the plague then. By the way, where'd you get all this info above? Source?

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I am Schizophrenic, it is a lot easier for me to believe in God than a normal person.

Really? Catatonic/disorganized/paranoid? You don't need to tell me if you don't want to-- I'm just curious. I don't know anyone with it. Unique opportunity for discussion! Make a new thread about ailments. But don't judge yourself saying "Because I'm inflicted, I have to believe in god!" it works the other way too.

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god is so evil and he just sends everyone to hell ..and christians are down right stupied for beliveing in him ..what i was sayyyyinngg was once again god decides  that because there his people not mine.. and im not bout to argue with anybody about there belief ..you believe what you want..and i belive what i want  ..honestly i dont give a crap...

No. Christians aren't dumb for believing in him. Christians are dumb for not keeping it to themselves and pushing it on others with the same old nonsense that keeps being posted in this thread. You created this post saying you're just posting your research and yet you say you aren't going to argue with anyone now? I'm sure you knew beforehand what would happen. I think the smartest thing to do would be to not post religious threads.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 20, 2009, 04:30:33 pm
Scientists are unanimously supportive of the fact that we use way, way more than 10% of our brain.  That saying is 100% false and has been since its inception.  When the brain is monitored, every section shows activity.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 20, 2009, 05:52:50 pm
Let god take care of it? So you're saying we are going to go to hell again? Very offensive, even if it is because you are blinded by your religion. To subject that as a possibility to anyone is wrong. Not that I believe in hell, but you are implying that if there is one, we are going there. :P You know what is funny? I know atheists who donate, are all around good people, have rich loyal families with lots of love, and so fourth. Are they going to hell because they don't believe in god? Even though they are as close to 'pure' as anyone can get nowadays, but just because they believe in god they're going to hell? ARROGANCE I TELL YOU!  >:(


i never said anyone is going to hell ..im not the judge of that god is ..i dont judge people  athesiets are  human beings like anybody else ....so obviously you didint read my post right..your macking it seem like i said  god is so evil and he just sends everyone to hell ..and christians are down right stupied for beliveing in him ..what i was sayyyyinngg was once again god decides  that because there his people not mine.. and im not bout to argue with anybody about there belief ..you believe what you want..and i belive what i want  ..honestly i dont give a crap... you do you  and live the life you want to because in the end god cares about everyone ..even the ones who dont believe
If there is a god then everybody is his people, not just Christians, hence the whole 'he created everything', so that doesn't make sense. Unless you are saying that there are other gods for the 'other' people that aren't Christian? or do you believe they are all recepients of Satan?

The people on this site that don't believe in God are the meanest most hateful and rude bunch I have ever come in contact with.

I hope you get what you want. I hope there is no God for you. I just wonder how you can live another day. When someone dies or if your child dies I just wonder how you are able to make it another day, knowing that was it and you never will see them again.

I am Schizophrenic, it is a lot easier for me to believe in God than a normal person.

Everybody dies eventually; and for your information I was diagnosed with a schitzoid personality at a very young age, which is often the onset of schizophrenia...I still don't believe in god.

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1.) Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.


I believe in the possibility of god, I just see all the given options as inpropable and total crock. How does our universe and everything about it have to do with gods design? EVERYTHING is complex, we know nothing, we create theories that become truths over time when accepted by the majority; we know little about anything. Just how we interpet it in our humanly ways, which most likely has a lot to do with our over-active emotions. If you knew anything about planets, you'd know that the possibilities of the other planets having an atmosphere at one point is very high, as they found much evidence in rocks they collected which contained evidence of oxygen and water at one point, which is all we really need since every creature on our planet has salty blood, and breathes oxygen; further saying that it is just a phase of the planet where organisms could possibly develop. Not to mention it has been proven that our planet is getting closer to the sun by time, and will eventually be engulped by the sun itself; a process caused by gravity. ALSO, Titan, a moon, has clouds, which is another thing you're saying is a specialty for our planet..explain that? Not to mention; just because we are an uber-smart species, that doesn't mean we were designed by some higher being. It has been proven time over that animals have emotions too; for example elephants mourn when their young dies and even have a somewhat ritual good-bye, which occurs with all elephants everywhere. Everything has emotions, we just have a wider variety. Keep in mind evolution is still technically a theory and does not in any way reveal how we came to be in the first place.

Also, just because we can't explain the big bang THEORY, that doesn't mean that it was placed by god, or put into action by any special being, that could infact just be a freak coincidence, could be something else. Not to mention every idea about how the universe came to be is also THEORY. How would they know it filled with light? Also, we have gravity and all of our other weird laws of the world because our matter on this planet consists of something unlike spaces matter, which is completaly logical. Just because we discovered the code of everything(DNA) as well doesn't mean that we are created by god. We just identified the structures of life. The world has its perfections and inperfections. I am not in any way bothered by peoples beliefs either; just people thinking their religion is the only one; or people will go to 'hell' because they don't believe sounds unreasonably crude to me. If you ask me, religion was created by someone very smart once upon a time, kind of like a regulator for mankind, to keep us in check and give us something to look forward to in the morning. HONESTLY I think religion is a good thing, I don't believe it, but without it the world would be a lot worse off; peoplewise at least. You are a smart person and I respect what you are saying, but even after all of that; I still have come to the conclusion that he doesn't exist. As you know, being as crazy as me, you'd have to realize that I have been considering this since I was barely able to read; I have thought of every possibility, and have created my own answers. They could be wrong, but to me they are correct, so I will choose to believe them. Just like you choose to believe in your god because it makes perfect sense to you.

and your last post is just nonsense..
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on December 20, 2009, 09:55:31 pm
Is there any logical proof that God exists?
Answer, only faith and the bible



It makes no sense to claim as proof that a Creator exists by the existance of a book which hasn't been proven to be non-fiction
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Locoplata78 on December 20, 2009, 09:59:29 pm
Hail Santa!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on December 20, 2009, 10:06:17 pm
Hail Santa!
Heathern, lmao!!!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 21, 2009, 12:27:19 am
You can say whatever the hell you want or call me every name in the book, you can say I am retarded and ignorant

When you post multiple times saying you believe god exists, then you turn right around and post something that implies you don't believe god exists, how would you expect us to respond?  You make no sense.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: s3xyrixa on December 21, 2009, 12:50:50 am
I would be clinically depressed if I was atheist and I am not strong enough to be one.

It would be impossible for me to go to work the next day if my child died and I didn't believe in God.

Sure we may look like idiots but we can cope.
I was diagnosed with depression at age 16 even with growing up believing there is a god.. After the doctors threw me on perscription heroin for 3years.. I finally quit taking the junk and dealt with it in other ways.. Now I believe there is a higher being. Religion is just that Rediculous.. Most of the religions now a days are just branches that some idiot came up with one night..

Besides it's pretty much everyone for themselves and I don't care what you think.
I totally agree with the first part, but if you don't care what others think why bother posting in a message forum that everyone can look at and comment on lol
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Jerry1216 on December 21, 2009, 01:18:33 am
you have to believe and God's evidence is clearly seen once you believe in him he opens up your eyes. Here are a few clear evidencial sites though. http://www.av1611.org/amazing.html
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
It is in his word you can say what you will but one day every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord when you humble yourself before the Lord and truly put your trust in him that he is Lord when you believe you will see there is no way to go around this friends. Jesus has made his evidence clearly from his Word and things seen arguing with these people with reasonings of man is going to cause confusion and damage this witness faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God if they read their bibles and accepted the word of God by faith their blind eyes would be opened their is plenty of evidence but God requires a humble heart and evidence will only show them their need for God and his salvation but the greatest evidence is simple the condemnation they have as enemies of God and their conscience being seared with a hot Iron when you speak the word of God bringing them into condemnation they will only drag down your faith and lead you to endless debates if you publicly openly try and reason with them the only way these people are going to get saved is through the word of God and through the Holy Spirit and many people who think they are saved are not. Schitzophrania is a demon possesion! You have demons in you and you need to cry out for the Lord to save you from these wicked sins you live in and as you seek him more and more he will heal you and those demons can be rid of you if you have faith. God is the reason for our salvation because GOD is what the gospel and this earth is all about and man are a product of God and a beautiful thing in his site. To those that walk uprightly to those that folow him but to those that do wickedness they are an abomination and he hates them! He has provided grace for the whole world but God knows who those are who will not be saved and for his Glory they will be vessels of wrath fitted for destruction Romans 9 Read your bibles and put your trust in the Lord FLEE FROM THE WRATH OF GOD TO COME YOU VILE SINNERS realize your wickedness and violation of Gods law and your sin and crime against the creator of heaven and earth and you will see the purpose for yoru existance HOW HOLY GOD IS AND HOW RIGHTEOUS GOD IS AND THAT HE PUNISHES AND DESTROYS THE WICKED WHO WILL NOT TURN FROM THEIR DEEDS WHO WILL NOT BE SAVED BY THE GRACE OF GOD WHO WILL NOT TURN THEIR WHOLE HEART TO GOD YOU CANNOT SAY A PRAYER YOU HAVE TO LAY YOURSELF DOWN AT THE MERCY AND GOD TRUST HIM HELL OR HIGHWATER FOR HIS PURPOSE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shxQcczYuAA
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: lynnc35 on December 21, 2009, 04:56:11 am
I got all the proof I needed when I started seeing things that weren't of good. Now I know that we can have spiritual blindeness, because I see it go on everyday. We just cannot see what is really around us. There are angels and their are demons, but good News is Jesus paid the price, or I do not even want to think about the alternative, if people only knew.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: mlmhome on December 21, 2009, 05:04:29 am
everyday we open our eye that is proof god exist.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: jeffblahnik on December 21, 2009, 08:29:11 am
There is no empirical proof that God exists.  People have been trying for centuries to figure it out, but it comes down to faith!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on December 21, 2009, 09:18:24 am
Being scared into obediance is so sad. The concept reaks of mental abuse.

Yeah, I believe in Creator, but you christians with your Jesus are really delusional.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 21, 2009, 10:47:46 am
AHA! You see people make posts like that because they have considered the thought of there being no god! That is the first step to becoming an atheist. The difference between you and I is it happened to me at a way younger age. I have just come to terms a lot quicker. :D There most likely is some existance of higher being, maybe even one that isn't even concerned with us.

AND THAT PREACHING POST I WAS STONED WHEN I READ THAT! OMG HAHAHAHAHAHA XD

I will wait for the second coming! With open arms but I highly doubt it'll ever happen. I think you are delusional, especially for believing in a religion such as Christianity. It is really sad. But everybody has their right to whatever the hell they choose so have at that lifestyle, I'm good.

The possibility of a higher creator is 50/50, there really is only two possible answers to this question; and I am relying on the fact that there most likely isn't a god. But I also realize the fact that the chances of there being a higher is also high. So I'll just leave it at a maybe and live my life how I want too? Your religions are all alike in a lot of ways; and yet you all doubt eachother. I can poke so much holes into the common religion, I really don't want a part of that national depression. You think you would be depressed without believing in a higher being, but you're very wrong.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: trujillo33 on December 21, 2009, 11:42:44 am
I dont really believe in God!! People have their own opinion!!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Locoplata78 on December 21, 2009, 12:12:35 pm
My head hurts from reading all this, yet its making me laugh also!  :D
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Wildchild89 on December 21, 2009, 01:19:15 pm
I'd rather live on my feet :angry7: than die on my knees. :notworthy:
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: jongarton on December 21, 2009, 02:34:59 pm
My daughter is a miracle that has been given too us! She was born in november and I am just plain thrilled that she is here!!!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: lotsomoney on December 21, 2009, 02:40:58 pm
GREAT ANOTHER PERSON TRYING TO PROVE THE IMPOSSABLE :BangHead:
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MistyM3 on December 21, 2009, 03:07:15 pm
For one, what the heck is MORBIDRACOON's problem? Why is everyone getting so crazy about someone's thoery on something. We all have our own opinions and shouldn't be ridiculed for it. Geez she was just saying what she was taught. Find another topic to talk about. none of us have any way of knowing if God is real or not til we die and see for ourself. So stop worrying about it and just live ur life...oh and MERRY CHRISTMAS..
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 21, 2009, 05:16:32 pm
Guess what? I don't doubt there of an existence of a higher being, but the way you guys impose it is ridiculous. Generally all religions now have beentainted. None the less the average religious person isn't even religious, they break their own ways and feel bad for stupid reasons and think something bad is going to happen when reality the sun will rise the next day. I mean as I said, I could go on! But like you said, we all have our views, if you are going to blind yourself into believing in such things then go right ahead.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: home_teachin on December 21, 2009, 05:23:26 pm
If all the hateful self righteous people who follow these religions are actually going to heaven, I'll be happy to go to hell. I just want to work the door . :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on December 21, 2009, 05:39:38 pm
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I don't doubt there of an existence of a higher being, but the way you guys impose it is ridiculous. Generally all religions now have been tainted

Well put.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: totosli_08 on December 21, 2009, 07:22:49 pm
Let god take care of it? So you're saying we are going to go to hell again? Very offensive, even if it is because you are blinded by your religion. To subject that as a possibility to anyone is wrong. Not that I believe in hell, but you are implying that if there is one, we are going there. :P You know what is funny? I know atheists who donate, are all around good people, have rich loyal families with lots of love, and so fourth. Are they going to hell because they don't believe in god? Even though they are as close to 'pure' as anyone can get nowadays, but just because they believe in god they're going to hell? ARROGANCE I TELL YOU!  >:(


i never said anyone is going to hell ..im not the judge of that god is ..i dont judge people  athesiets are  human beings like anybody else ....so obviously you didint read my post right..your macking it seem like i said  god is so evil and he just sends everyone to hell ..and christians are down right stupied for beliveing in him ..what i was sayyyyinngg was once again god decides  that because there his people not mine.. and im not bout to argue with anybody about there belief ..you believe what you want..and i belive what i want  ..honestly i dont give a crap... you do you  and live the life you want to because in the end god cares about everyone ..even the ones who dont believe
If there is a god then everybody is his people, not just Christians, hence the whole 'he created everything', so that doesn't make sense. Unless you are saying that there are other gods for the 'other' people that aren't Christian? or do you believe they are all recepients of Satan?

The people on this site that don't believe in God are the meanest most hateful and rude bunch I have ever come in contact with.

I hope you get what you want. I hope there is no God for you. I just wonder how you can live another day. When someone dies or if your child dies I just wonder how you are able to make it another day, knowing that was it and you never will see them again.

I am Schizophrenic, it is a lot easier for me to believe in God than a normal person.

Everybody dies eventually; and for your information I was diagnosed with a schitzoid personality at a very young age, which is often the onset of schizophrenia...I still don't believe in god.

Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1.) Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5

Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.

The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.


I believe in the possibility of god, I just see all the given options as inpropable and total crock. How does our universe and everything about it have to do with gods design? EVERYTHING is complex, we know nothing, we create theories that become truths over time when accepted by the majority; we know little about anything. Just how we interpet it in our humanly ways, which most likely has a lot to do with our over-active emotions. If you knew anything about planets, you'd know that the possibilities of the other planets having an atmosphere at one point is very high, as they found much evidence in rocks they collected which contained evidence of oxygen and water at one point, which is all we really need since every creature on our planet has salty blood, and breathes oxygen; further saying that it is just a phase of the planet where organisms could possibly develop. Not to mention it has been proven that our planet is getting closer to the sun by time, and will eventually be engulped by the sun itself; a process caused by gravity. ALSO, Titan, a moon, has clouds, which is another thing you're saying is a specialty for our planet..explain that? Not to mention; just because we are an uber-smart species, that doesn't mean we were designed by some higher being. It has been proven time over that animals have emotions too; for example elephants mourn when their young dies and even have a somewhat ritual good-bye, which occurs with all elephants everywhere. Everything has emotions, we just have a wider variety. Keep in mind evolution is still technically a theory and does not in any way reveal how we came to be in the first place.

Also, just because we can't explain the big bang THEORY, that doesn't mean that it was placed by god, or put into action by any special being, that could infact just be a freak coincidence, could be something else. Not to mention every idea about how the universe came to be is also THEORY. How would they know it filled with light? Also, we have gravity and all of our other weird laws of the world because our matter on this planet consists of something unlike spaces matter, which is completaly logical. Just because we discovered the code of everything(DNA) as well doesn't mean that we are created by god. We just identified the structures of life. The world has its perfections and inperfections. I am not in any way bothered by peoples beliefs either; just people thinking their religion is the only one; or people will go to 'hell' because they don't believe sounds unreasonably crude to me. If you ask me, religion was created by someone very smart once upon a time, kind of like a regulator for mankind, to keep us in check and give us something to look forward to in the morning. HONESTLY I think religion is a good thing, I don't believe it, but without it the world would be a lot worse off; peoplewise at least. You are a smart person and I respect what you are saying, but even after all of that; I still have come to the conclusion that he doesn't exist. As you know, being as crazy as me, you'd have to realize that I have been considering this since I was barely able to read; I have thought of every possibility, and have created my own answers. They could be wrong, but to me they are correct, so I will choose to believe them. Just like you choose to believe in your god because it makes perfect sense to you.

and your last post is just nonsense..
your getting totaly off the subject witch is confusing but ok ...yeh athiests are god children to ,everybody is gods children just because they dont believe dosint mean that he dosint love thme anymore
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 22, 2009, 01:11:23 am
What I found most offensive about this topic is the person who claimed that schizophrenia is a demon possession! What is up with that crap? You know how offensive that is? Not to mention everybody seems to have this stupid idea now where you can magically break your religion off at a small period of your life to find yourself, but then when you're doing you need to get right back to god to be 'saved', for example everybody’s younger party years. That sounds like the idea of an illiterate moron who knows nothing. If god made rules they are always suppose to apply to you, you don't get breaks, and that is what people don't realize. So by everybody’s standards of how obedient you should be to god, and how much you should follow the bible or the torah or whatever, then everybody is going to hell because practically nobody is pure anymore. Everybody has done something, something they need saving for, or whatever bullcrap. Then you got the fakes who think they need a break from their 'god', and either end up being atheists or the half-assed follower that the majority of the world is today. Nobody is purely obedient to their faith anymore, like your book claims you should be, yet the world still goes on, the same *bleep* still happens...I mean I could go on. Your religions are obviously flawed . If something that is suppose to connect me to a higher being that is supposed to be COMPLETALY perfect is something that is flawed or questioned then it was obviously not created by him/her/it or else it wouldn't have been flawed in the first place since the being is omnipotent, it can't mess up; therefore it is obvious that religion was created by the interpretation of man. If not that, then it must have been tainted with time and hand off from generation to generation.  It is a fool’s way, especially if followed to the full extent, which mostly everybody isn’t even willing to do anymore. It is obvious how much people doubt deep down inside, even if some just doubt the religion, which is how atheists usually start.

You’d be surprised how much of a political influence something could have on the majority of people over time if it is accepted, especially if it is claimed to be by a higher being. A lot of people’s morals have been constructed on these very things. You could almost control society, if following these rules the right way, because it has already been instilled over time as one of our natural ways; to follow commandments or words of god; which if you notice change from culture to culture?

I choose to not be a fool and buy into that brainwashing device created by someone who was very smart and understood the human psyche very well, and concluded certain things that have resulted in these religions. I call it the dummy effect; the need to believe in a higher existence. We always need a higher being; parents, boss, wife, whatever it may be. It could just be natural by our emotions to always look for the next person up the line, but I don’t think societies morals would be the same if they realized that we are last up on the line, so religion is also kind of good for the smart people who realize really dumb people probably couldn’t cope with reality in the same way without it.
If people were to consider the fact that there isn’t a god though, and we weren’t to go into chaos or anything like that, I believe society could advance beyond belief. No more moral boundaries.  :)

I guess we’ll see, 2012 right? LOL




Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: debraleesparks on December 22, 2009, 02:01:03 am
 :sad1:God will get you for that...
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: totosli_08 on December 22, 2009, 08:17:44 am
What I found most offensive about this topic is the person who claimed that schizophrenia is a demon possession! What is up with that crap? You know how offensive that is? Not to mention everybody seems to have this stupid idea now where you can magically break your religion off at a small period of your life to find yourself, but then when you're doing you need to get right back to god to be 'saved', for example everybody’s younger party years. That sounds like the idea of an illiterate moron who knows nothing. If god made rules they are always suppose to apply to you, you don't get breaks, and that is what people don't realize. So by everybody’s standards of how obedient you should be to god, and how much you should follow the bible or the torah or whatever, then everybody is going to hell because practically nobody is pure anymore. Everybody has done something, something they need saving for, or whatever bullcrap. Then you got the fakes who think they need a break from their 'god', and either end up being atheists or the half-assed follower that the majority of the world is today. Nobody is purely obedient to their faith anymore, like your book claims you should be, yet the world still goes on, the same *bleep* still happens...I mean I could go on. Your religions are obviously flawed . If something that is suppose to connect me to a higher being that is supposed to be COMPLETALY perfect is something that is flawed or questioned then it was obviously not created by him/her/it or else it wouldn't have been flawed in the first place since the being is omnipotent, it can't mess up; therefore it is obvious that religion was created by the interpretation of man. If not that, then it must have been tainted with time and hand off from generation to generation.  It is a fool’s way, especially if followed to the full extent, which mostly everybody isn’t even willing to do anymore. It is obvious how much people doubt deep down inside, even if some just doubt the religion, which is how atheists usually start.

You’d be surprised how much of a political influence something could have on the majority of people over time if it is accepted, especially if it is claimed to be by a higher being. A lot of people’s morals have been constructed on these very things. You could almost control society, if following these rules the right way, because it has already been instilled over time as one of our natural ways; to follow commandments or words of god; which if you notice change from culture to culture?

I choose to not be a fool and buy into that brainwashing device created by someone who was very smart and understood the human psyche very well, and concluded certain things that have resulted in these religions. I call it the dummy effect; the need to believe in a higher existence. We always need a higher being; parents, boss, wife, whatever it may be. It could just be natural by our emotions to always look for the next person up the line, but I don’t think societies morals would be the same if they realized that we are last up on the line, so religion is also kind of good for the smart people who realize really dumb people probably couldn’t cope with reality in the same way without it.
If people were to consider the fact that there isn’t a god though, and we weren’t to go into chaos or anything like that, I believe society could advance beyond belief. No more moral boundaries.  :)

I guess we’ll see, 2012 right? LOL






you keep posting stuff that makes you sound so ignorent and you know nothing about the bible obviously the bible says he who is without sin cast the first stone jesus said he came to earth to save ..... "he is sick need not a physician" so thatgoes for you saying that everybody is going to hell because everyone is not true to there faith we all make mistakes and thats what repentence is for 
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 22, 2009, 08:33:14 am
marieelissa>:You know for someone who claims to be smart you really make yourself sound more dumb everytime you post. I don't even think you are schitzophrenic, I think you are just some dumb person who made an offensive post and had to make up darastic things on the internet to sound like you had a lot of backbone for the stupid crap you say. Then you post about a disorder and claim it as your reason. That is pathetic. You are pathetic.

I honestly wonder if it is even worth my 20 seconds to type up a long post complaining about the new dumb *bleep* things you guys replied with.

But I got better things to do like make coffee and smoke a cigarette, in this oh so godless world.  :icon_rr: hahahaha
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 22, 2009, 01:52:52 pm
So for all you people that believe in God and believe there are Ghosts or whatever, this is what Science does to people that have this ability.

This doesn't make sense.

Quote
Since it was a Big Bang and Evolution then Schizophrenics are nuts and there is no God.

This doesn't make sense.

Quote
oooo I seen a Ghost, Nope just Hallucinating.

Probably.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on December 22, 2009, 02:50:57 pm
Thanks Marieelisa for posting that info on schizos.

Quote
I honestly wonder if it is even worth my 20 seconds to type up a long post complaining about the new dumb *bleep* things you guys replied with.

I assure you it's not. This thread is getting ridiculous when it's on topic.  ::)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: baymcpr on December 22, 2009, 02:56:35 pm
I am a faith believer.  I read the Bible and pray in the morning and at night.  God has always made things possible
for my family.  God has provided us with comfort mostly when we have problem or even a scared feeling in our hearts.  Sometimes I just sit alone a cry and take to him, and feel some comfort, but it faith that carries us though.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: ivyruefthaler1 on December 22, 2009, 04:35:33 pm
revelations is a chapter from god's beliefs that he exists
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Rastov on December 22, 2009, 09:59:51 pm
revelations is a chapter from god's beliefs that he exists
I do wonder if these posts are made by non-English speakers or idiots. I'm inclined to believe it's the latter.

Quote from: marieelissa
Do this little thing: take O out of Good and you get GOD take D out of Devil and you get EVIL. Pretty smart, huh?
Reverse God and you get Dog! Move the N in Satan back two places and you get Santa! Pretty smart, huh?
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 23, 2009, 07:46:55 am
hahahhahahahahahahahahahah  ;D
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: totosli_08 on December 23, 2009, 08:18:11 am
why do you keep calling people idiots just because of what they belive thats disrespectfull ...your the only idiot in this forum because you say dumb stuff if you aint gonna respeact peoples views on things without calling them names do me a favor and dont comment on my post anymore...just because you dont believe in god dosint mean you have to bash everybody that does belive ...everybody keep sayinng theres no proof of god from people then faith and the bible ...and im glad you guys say that..because thats all the proof the people of god need..and theres need to argue with  and try to prove that god is real to this idiot...... because you know in your heart that he is and thats all that matters....the people of god have been looked at as idiots and dummys for years but it really dosint matter to me and it shouldint matter to you guys that believe eaither .....all we can do is pray for those people and move on with our lives.....ive seen  what he can do ...especially in my life ...and i thank him for it each and everyday... Keep your head up people of god ...and stay prayerfull
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: marycdoyle1 on December 23, 2009, 08:25:19 am
 :angel12:  I absolutely believe the Holy Bible.  God exists in 3 persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.  The problem we have with "proof" is that our faith is just that....faith.  Hebrews tell us that faith is the evidence of things unseen.  Just look at creation!  This is just one way to "prove" that God is beyond our scope of understanding.  He did make everything out of nothing. 
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: ivyruefthaler1 on December 23, 2009, 12:45:53 pm
revelations
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on December 23, 2009, 12:50:23 pm
revelations
Ok, heres one for you.
The authors of the holy bible are all guilty of plagiarism.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: jongarton on December 23, 2009, 12:54:17 pm
guys it is like this: we all have our own beliefs and some people in society don't realize what their beliefs are until it is TOO LATE!!! I hope everyone enjoys their holidays no matter what you believe!!!!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MistyM3 on December 23, 2009, 01:40:43 pm
Nobody can know God unless God teaches him.

Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

I expect to pass through life but once. If therefore there be any kindness I can show, or any good thing I can do to any fellow being, let me do it now, and not defer or negkect it, as I shall not pass this way again.

I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end.

Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.

Even if you're on the right track you'll get run over if you just sit there.

She opens her mouth with wisdom, and on her tounge is the law of kindness.



well marie.....i have to say that i don't anything you have ever posted....u say u believe in god at all that yet i have read sooo many posts of yours and one stated that u thought u were pregnant...but oh no u didn't want it and was going to get an abortion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so hypocrites are mostly "religious" people if u ask me. and i read one where u thought it was funny that people lost thier jobs and homes..jus because u are disabiled and wanted everyone to feel ur pain...... im tired of your ignorant posts and now i agree with the morbinraccoon guy....u can't just be religious part of the time.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 23, 2009, 02:41:20 pm
This is just one way to "prove" that God is beyond our scope of understanding.

When the atheist is told that God is unknowable, he may interpret this claim in one of two ways. He may suppose, first, that the theist has acquired knowledge of a being that, by his own admission, cannot possibly be known; or, second, he may assume that the theist simply does not know what he is talking about.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Rastov on December 23, 2009, 06:37:51 pm
why do you keep calling people idiots just because of what they belive thats disrespectfull ...your the only idiot in this forum because you say dumb stuff if you aint gonna respeact peoples views on things without calling them names do me a favor and dont comment on my post anymore.
1. I've never commented on your posts before.
2. I was referring to his *bleep* poor English, not whatever his beliefs are. His post made no sense. He could believe anything. That may have been for or against Revelations.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Rastov on December 23, 2009, 07:34:21 pm
I love how the word Ignornant gets tossed around like crazy on this forum. Like being Ignornant is a bad thing.
You're right. The problem isn't being ignorant, it's being an ignoramus. Someone who lacks knowledge, yet argues as though they possess it, while being very, very wrong.

Note: I'm not calling you an ignoramus, as I don't recall reading any of your posts before this one :)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MistyM3 on December 23, 2009, 08:21:21 pm
ur not that poor...u obviously got a computer and the internet. and god wouldn't kill a child..so he had nothing to do with a miscarriage.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Rastov on December 23, 2009, 08:49:50 pm
ur not that poor...u obviously got a computer and the internet. and god wouldn't kill a child..so he had nothing to do with a miscarriage.
Tell that to the Egyptians :(
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 23, 2009, 09:51:50 pm
ur not that poor...u obviously got a computer and the internet. and god wouldn't kill a child..so he had nothing to do with a miscarriage.

Let's be honest:  He has a death toll of at least seven figures.  He killed a million in the swipe of a hand (Chronicles I believe).
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 23, 2009, 11:31:09 pm
Nobody can know God unless God teaches him.

Watch your thoughts; they become words. Watch your words; they become actions. Watch your actions; they become habits. Watch your habits; they become character. Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

I expect to pass through life but once. If therefore there be any kindness I can show, or any good thing I can do to any fellow being, let me do it now, and not defer or negkect it, as I shall not pass this way again.

I do the very best I know how - the very best I can; and I mean to keep doing so until the end.

Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.

Even if you're on the right track you'll get run over if you just sit there.

She opens her mouth with wisdom, and on her tounge is the law of kindness.



and most of all I absolutely DESPISE how you think that just because someone is willing to be an atheist they can somehow no longer be good people at that point who don't neglect others? Just because someone decided to be an atheist it doesn't makes them evil, only think headed, therefore you would be wrong on this whole prospect you are making of ' if you are an atheists you must not be trying to be a good person, you just want to have fun and not believe in god'. But some people are an atheist because it plain just doesn't make sense to them, they have no faith even if they try, yet they still also have the drive to be good people too you know? They don't just turn it off because there might not be some higher being, we're still good  creatures you know? You don't need a god in order to be a good person. Especially since by your theory, god made everyone, so if he made certain people entirely unwilling to believe in god then it couldn't possibly be wrong if he created them to be like that, right? :)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 24, 2009, 01:07:00 am
Yes, the devil.  ::)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: InKane on December 24, 2009, 01:31:13 am
If that's the case, the devil makes the better argument.  :angel12:

The devil sent out his soldiers to attack children, and the mentally challenged! They will corrupt the believer's souls with logic and rational thought!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 24, 2009, 01:47:11 am
RAWR  SATAN >:( >:( >:(

It took a long time to get here, but it was inevitable:  Atheists worship Satan and are his minions haha love it



The large majority of atheists believe in satan about as much as they believe in god(s).  


If I had lots of rational people telling me I'm delusional and don't make sense when I speak, I would probably start to consider the option that they're perhaps correct..
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: AmyTrivitt on December 24, 2009, 03:48:27 am
RAWR  SATAN >:( >:( >:(

It took a long time to get here, but it was inevitable:  Atheists worship Satan and are his minions haha love it



The large majority of atheists believe in satan about as much as they believe in god(s).  


If I had lots of rational people telling me I'm delusional and don't make sense when I speak, I would probably start to consider the option that they're perhaps correct..

What???? Atheists= unbelief!! Satanism= believe in Satan AS WELL as ALL Christians. How do you come to the terms that Atheists are devil worshipers? Hm mm since Christians believe in Satan should we call them devil worshipers? I think not. You cannot force what religion you THINK people are upon them. O wait most on here already are!!!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: eSineM on December 24, 2009, 04:21:37 pm
Well from my experience as an Ex jehovahwitness Ive learned christians belive that Satan's demons will possess your body and make you really smart..at the same time deceiving you into thinking he really doesn't exist  ::) so Satan doesnt want anyone to think he exists hehe  It reads in the bible something like "devil appears as an angel of light" ...make what ya want of that
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: maagen8134 on December 24, 2009, 04:31:19 pm
not sure what you mean
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 24, 2009, 10:25:19 pm
RAWR  SATAN >:( >:( >:(

It took a long time to get here, but it was inevitable:  Atheists worship Satan and are his minions haha love it



The large majority of atheists believe in satan about as much as they believe in god(s).  


If I had lots of rational people telling me I'm delusional and don't make sense when I speak, I would probably start to consider the option that they're perhaps correct..

What???? Atheists= unbelief!! Satanism= believe in Satan AS WELL as ALL Christians. How do you come to the terms that Atheists are devil worshipers? Hm mm since Christians believe in Satan should we call them devil worshipers? I think not. You cannot force what religion you THINK people are upon them. O wait most on here already are!!!

It was sarcasm.  Surely you know I'm not religious by looking at any of my posts :P
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 24, 2009, 10:46:24 pm
Again, you missed the point.

I'm willing to guarantee you didn't make one for me to miss.

Quote
Do you Non Believers treat everyone that has what you consider ignorance or the idiot syndrome this way or is it just people that believe in God.

No, only people who are willfully and voluntarily ignorant shall get treated as so. 

If someone tells me they believe Elvis Presley is still alive, I will kindly ask them for their logical reasoning or physical proof of this.  When they attempt to show me this, they will come up completely empty handed (Elvis is dead, plain fact).  If they continue to strongly maintain the conclusion that Elvis is alive, I will treat them as they deserve to be treated -- willfully ignorant.  Perhaps I will treat them as an idiot if they ramble on incoherently about silly details that have no relation to the subject.

Quote
Do you go around saying to Retarded or Slow or Down Syndrome People they are dumb and stupid and make no sense and retarded?

No, these people are not willfully or voluntarily ignorant.  They have mental limits that prevent them from reaching a certain level of understanding in many cases.  This isn't something they can help, it's a physical quirk in their genetics/development that can't be held against them.

Quote
Do you harrass the elderly who move and think slowly?

No, again those people are not willfully ignorant in most cases.  They often have mental deterioration which causes them to think slowly and their slow movement is nothing more than a product of worn muscles/bones.  Now if they're elderly with full mental health and they choose to ignore blatant facts that are put in their face and choose to maintain an obviously silly and/or wrong conclusion on any subject, I will treat them as they deserve.

Quote
If you do you are just mean, but I don't think you do and I think you only attack people that believe in God.

I rarely attack people personally.  I attack what they say.  Two completely different things.  And I will continue to attack what a person says when they make constant extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.

Quote
I never said you worship the Devil.

No, I guess you just blatantly implied it haha

Quote
If you refuse to have God in your life then you leave yourself open for attack and the Devil will have you attack his children.

The devil probably doesn't exist.  It's pretty unlikely.

Quote
If we believers are so ignorant why do you come in this topic? You just love to bring all this hate in here and try to upset everyone.

Because it's an interesting topic, a topic that effects each and every person on a daily basis, at least in the US.  It's more interesting when both sides are capable of having a coherent conversation without taking everything personally, but I'll take what I can get. 

If you're upset by someone cutting down your posts or beliefs, that's your problem.  If you're upset that everyone doesn't fall down on their knees and agree with you, that's your problem.  If you want to be a part of this conversation, it's guaranteed that your beliefs are going to be questioned and scrutinized.  If you can't handle it, don't take part.  If you wish to take part, grow some thicker skin and get educated in your subject (and the opposition's subject) so that you can adequately defend your positions.

Quote
You all bad on the internet but I bet you wouldn't say this crap to someone in person because they would knock you out.

Actually quite a few people are very willing to have conversations on this subject in the real world.  They're usually intelligent, educated people who can string a coherent argument together.  I've had numerous discussions with people on the subject without anybody running away crying cause they got their little feelings hurt.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: lekeishagipson on December 24, 2009, 11:09:05 pm
I have proof that God exists because without him there would be no nature, and faith in certain people, and without him we couldn't walk, talk, and we couldn't breathe, so that's how I know that there is a god. God is good without him there is nothing.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 25, 2009, 12:53:45 am
I have proof that God exists because without him there would be no nature, and faith in certain people, and without him we couldn't walk, talk, and we couldn't breathe, so that's how I know that there is a god. God is good without him there is nothing.

Baseless, millennium-old rhetoric is not proof.  Never has been, never will be.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: mcucullu on December 25, 2009, 01:49:14 am
Proving God exists is like proving human emotions exist.  You can't do it from an outside source.

Say a person had never felt love, or fear.  Any explanation of these concepts to this person would probably get a good laugh.  Telling this person your own experiences with these emotions would probably bring a few insults regarding your intelligence.  Until they actually feel it for themselves, anything you say is going to be nonsense to them.

As an agnostic, I'm able to at least say "You know what, I don't know." after considering evidence from both sides.  Yes, there is a lack of empirical scientific evidence proving the existence of God, but there's no surprise there considering science deals in the physical (natural) world and the concept of God pretty much always places him in the realm of the spiritual (supernatural).  However, from my own (many) independent interviews of believers, considering the similarities of many of their stories, I found it hard to believe that all these people, from different backgrounds, different geographical locations, and yes, even different religions, were all under some mass delusion.  To do otherwise would have been vastly egotistical and tremendously unscholarly. 

It seems that belief in a concept of God can be boiled down to a simple statement, "Once you feel it, then you know."  To believers, God seems to be felt, not demonstrated, which makes it impossible to prove.  On the flip side, most people on the non-believer side call for this proof (which cannot be scientifcally provided) and (naturally) do not receive it, and treat this lack of evidence as proof of non-existence.  Yet the point has been made abundantly clear that you can't prove something does not exist.  So any argument made claiming that God does not exist is already fundamentally unsound, because scientific proof of this claim is impossible.

It seems parties on both sides of this debate have made up their minds in advance as to their conclusions on this topic, and simply use any information or evidence available to support their own stances.  And that is about as unscientific (and egotistical) as it gets.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 25, 2009, 03:01:27 am
Proving God exists is like proving human emotions exist.  You can't do it from an outside source.

I can observe human emotions.  There are physical and psychological signs of human emotions.

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Say a person had never felt love, or fear.  Any explanation of these concepts to this person would probably get a good laugh.  Telling this person your own experiences with these emotions would probably bring a few insults regarding your intelligence.  Until they actually feel it for themselves, anything you say is going to be nonsense to them.

I need not explain these concepts in words or explain my own experiences.

I can show them the psychological and medical observational tests that prove these feelings occur.  Fear, for example:  increased heart/pulse rate, increased breathing rate, sweating, muscle tightening, increased activity in specific parts of the brain (Hypothalamus, Amygdala, etc.), and other "symptoms" when a person is in such a state of fear.  I could show them experiment after experiment of people exhibiting these medical conditions and behaviors when in such a state of fear.

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As an agnostic, I'm able to at least say "You know what, I don't know." after considering evidence from both sides.

Everyone is agnostic.  Nobody knows and currently no human is capable of knowing.

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Yes, there is a lack of empirical scientific evidence proving the existence of God, but there's no surprise there considering science deals in the physical (natural) world and the concept of God pretty much always places him in the realm of the spiritual (supernatural).

Here we find another obvious issue.  Until someone can show me even an inkling of respectable evidence that this supernatural world exists, I simply cannot see a single reason to believe that anything exists beyond the natural world.  Why should I?  This doesn't mean I believe the supernatural world doesn't exist, it means I lack the belief that it does (yes, there is a necessary distinction in that sentence).

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However, from my own (many) independent interviews of believers, considering the similarities of many of their stories, I found it hard to believe that all these people, from different backgrounds, different geographical locations, and yes, even different religions, were all under some mass delusion.  To do otherwise would have been vastly egotistical and tremendously unscholarly.

The stories are similar because they are products of each other, not because there is some supernatural force guiding a common story throughout each of them.  It's not exactly an accident that the Hebrew creation story shares great similarities with the Egyptian creation story.  It's not exactly an accident that the story of Noah shares great similarities with numerous other stories of global floods.  It's not exactly an accident that the identity of Jesus Christ shares great similarities with the identity of Mithra.

The stories are a based upon one another and developed throughout centuries side by side.  Any rational person would expect the stories to be similar given mankind's cultural development and the development of these religions throughout history.

And let's be honest, many religions aren't similar at all in their details.  Compare Eastern Asian religions/philosophies to the Abrahamic religions.

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It seems that belief in a concept of God can be boiled down to a simple statement, "Once you feel it, then you know."  To believers, God seems to be felt, not demonstrated, which makes it impossible to prove.  On the flip side, most people on the non-believer side call for this proof (which cannot be scientifcally provided) and (naturally) do not receive it, and treat this lack of evidence as proof of non-existence.  Yet the point has been made abundantly clear that you can't prove something does not exist.  So any argument made claiming that God does not exist is already fundamentally unsound, because scientific proof of this claim is impossible.

I think you're mistaken.  The average non-believer calls for proof, does not receive it, and treats this lack of proof as reason to lack belief.  

I will make the same distinction I made earlier: Having a lack of belief in deities is in no way the same as believing deities don't exist.

Under reasonable assumptions, a newborn child lacks belief in deities; a newborn child does not hold a belief that deities don't exist.  This is no different from the position your average atheist holds.*  

*I say average, because there are clearly some "strong" atheists who hold the adamant position that deities don't/can't exist, but these atheists are somewhat rare relatively speaking.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 25, 2009, 03:13:05 am
How can you not prove something doesn't exist? It would be like saying there is an Ocean in my backyard and you come over and realize, it doesn't exist.

Until you throw in the criteria that this ocean is:

1) Invisible
2) Untestable
3) Undetectable by any method
4) Is outside of our scope of understanding
5) Is outside our dimensions, but still maintains its position in your backyard

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What you are trying to prove doesn't exist would be impossible due to the fact he is in another Dimension and Invisible.

err yes, this is why you don't prove things don't exist.  Because it can't be done in any logical manner at all.

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It reminds me of the Matrix. What do you think is real? What you can see and touch? What about Schizo's? They see and touch that stuff.

Everything you see is a belief.  The idea that you're typing on a computer right now is a belief.  The idea that your head is attached to your neck is a belief.  There is clear distinction between belief and faith, however.  I've made this distinction before in multiple threads and don't feel like doing it again.

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What about how people become who they are, that is so complex. Logically it's like yea, she is pregnant but somebody will be that baby. What decides who we will be?

Genetics and the environment the child is raised in, clearly.

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You can't prove a God doesn't exist because either you would have to die and come back (no one will believe you if he is there) or you would need a picture.

Precisely why you don't prove things don't exist, especially when these things are extraordinary claims.

And thinking of that, this happened in the city where I was born.

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Explain this:
Clearwater, Florida - Virgin Mary in the Glass
There is a building that has the image of the Virgin Mary stained onto the glass. The building used to be a bank, and now it has been turned into a shrine. You can buy religious candles across the street at Target, and they have chairs set up. It is free, but there are donation boxes, and I believe a gift shop.

This is an oil stain that was there after they cut down a tree. You see this kinda stuff everywhere.

uhh someone explained it in the very next thing you copy/pasted.  Do you read these things you copy/paste? From your own post:

"A local chemist, Charles Roberts, had examined the window and drew on his forty years of experience in analyzing glass. He explained that the iridescent stain had been produced by water deposits combined with weathering, yielding a chemical reaction like that often seen on old bottles. “The culprit seems to be the sprinkler,” Roberts concluded (Norton 1996; Posner 1997).

Indeed, as I walked around the glass-faced building with Dr. Posner and another local skeptic, astronomy professor Jack H. Robinson, we could see that there were other iridescent flow patterns on windows, each at a sprinkler location.
"
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Graeth on December 25, 2009, 04:23:08 am
Faith is belief without proof.
The essence of religion is faith.....therefor this topic seems kind of pointless.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on December 25, 2009, 11:23:46 am
EXACTLY. THERE IS NO RAW PROOF, PEOPLE. STOP POSTING YOUR FAIRY TALES.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on December 25, 2009, 07:24:25 pm

Axiology: "The branch of philosophy dealing with the nature of value and the types of value, as in morals, aesthetics, religion, and metaphysics." Webster's New World Dictionary, 2nd Edition

People are different. They do not look alike. They do not all sound the same. And they all think differently. Axiology is the science that studies how people think. Specifically, Axiologists study how people determine the value of different things. This is how individuals compare things and how those value assignments either represent or distort reality.

To value is to set priorities. It is to choose one thing over another. It is to think about things in relation to each other and decide that one is better than the other. It is to decide what is "good". All persons assign higher value to some things and lower value to others. People assign these valuations in a consistent pattern that is unique to them. This valuation process is actually one's habit of thinking. It involves filtering, processing, storing, and analyzing data. It includes thinking about objects, discerning the different aspects of things, making judgments, and choosing. Our unique pattern of thinking and assigning value is called our Value Structure.

People often confuse value with values. Values are specific items that people stand for, believe in, or deem important. To value is to think, to assign meaning and richness of properties to reality. A Value Structure is the thinking map a person uses to reach conclusions about things. Value is thinking that values are important objects of our thinking. People value to arrive at their values.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on December 25, 2009, 08:31:03 pm
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PEOPLE QUIT READING OUR SO CALLED FAIRY TALES.

You're clogging this thread with delusions and fairy tales...in a thread about proving gods existence. Nice work.

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Sorry, it's a Free Country, if you don't like it then don't come in here, it works both ways

Ugh...forget it. I forgot I can't argue with you. Sorry.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Rastov on December 27, 2009, 03:49:56 pm
The stories are similar because they are products of each other, not because there is some supernatural force guiding a common story throughout each of them.  It's not exactly an accident that the Hebrew creation story shares great similarities with the Egyptian creation story.  It's not exactly an accident that the story of Noah shares great similarities with numerous other stories of global floods.  It's not exactly an accident that the identity of Jesus Christ shares great similarities with the identity of Mithra.
How is creating a geocentric universe and all animals and plants, etc, similar to a giant river plopping out several gods and creating a pyramid?
Those creation stories are about as different as can be.

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The stories are a based upon one another and developed throughout centuries side by side.  Any rational person would expect the stories to be similar given mankind's cultural development and the development of these religions throughout history.
Are you sure you aren't talking about Babylonian mythology?
Those Egyptian myths are far older than their very different Hebrew counterparts.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: liljp617 on December 28, 2009, 02:58:12 am
The stories are similar because they are products of each other, not because there is some supernatural force guiding a common story throughout each of them.  It's not exactly an accident that the Hebrew creation story shares great similarities with the Egyptian creation story.  It's not exactly an accident that the story of Noah shares great similarities with numerous other stories of global floods.  It's not exactly an accident that the identity of Jesus Christ shares great similarities with the identity of Mithra.
How is creating a geocentric universe and all animals and plants, etc, similar to a giant river plopping out several gods and creating a pyramid?
Those creation stories are about as different as can be.

The Hebrew creation story certainly takes aspects from other civilizations as well.  The Egyptian example is one of many and I used it just to throw out an easy, simple example.  As for their similarities:

http://www.aldokkan.com/religion/creation.htm

They're by no means identical and the Egyptian comparison may not be the best, but it's really not that unreasonable to conclude the Egyptian creation myth was an influence.

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The stories are a based upon one another and developed throughout centuries side by side.  Any rational person would expect the stories to be similar given mankind's cultural development and the development of these religions throughout history.
Are you sure you aren't talking about Babylonian mythology?
Those Egyptian myths are far older than their very different Hebrew counterparts.

To bore you with repetition, there are aspects of many creation mythologies across civilizations that show up in the Hebrew myth.  The Babylonian account is most definitely one.

Yes, the Egyptian myths are older.  I said the stories share many similarities because are based upon one another and developed side by side.  The Egyptian creation myth would fall into the "based upon" category (perhaps a better phrase would be "influenced by").

But the general point is this:  Many of these creation myths and other religious beliefs are similar to one another, because they share relatively common geographical/cultural origins or were simply pushed onto indigenous peoples of other regions.  They're not similar because there is some spiritual force/god(s) flowing through the universe influencing people to write similar things; they're similar because they're influenced by each other.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Stealth3si on January 01, 2010, 03:07:51 am
The stories are similar because they are products of each other, not because there is some supernatural force guiding a common story throughout each of them.  It's not exactly an accident that the Hebrew creation story shares great similarities with the Egyptian creation story.  It's not exactly an accident that the story of Noah shares great similarities with numerous other stories of global floods.  It's not exactly an accident that the identity of Jesus Christ shares great similarities with the identity of Mithra.
How is creating a geocentric universe and all animals and plants, etc, similar to a giant river plopping out several gods and creating a pyramid?
Those creation stories are about as different as can be.

Quote
The stories are a based upon one another and developed throughout centuries side by side.  Any rational person would expect the stories to be similar given mankind's cultural development and the development of these religions throughout history.
Are you sure you aren't talking about Babylonian mythology?
Those Egyptian myths are far older than their very different Hebrew counterparts.
I probably know where you're going with this -- that the Hebrews, who lived in Babylon, took these stories and modified them slightly for their own creation and flood stories and since language and culture have been observed to readily flow from one culture to another, that this seems by far the most likely explanation for the similarity between these older myths and Biblical stories.

But the only way this has any bearing at all is if we assume that the Bible is wrong when it says it is God's Word. According to the biblical account, the story of creation and the flood later on both really occurred.

The Bible clearly states that the flood destroyed everything "under heaven" (Gen 6:17). But doesn't that assume the perspective of a flat Earth? Wouldn't it be more precise to say "inside of the heavens," or something like that?

Better, I think, would be to recognize that in few if any instances does Biblical literature intend to speak "literally" (or for that matter "figuratively") in the sense that 21st-century post-Enlightenment people understand literal and figurative language. We're so convinced that the best description of the world involves the latitude and longitude of a roundish ball of matter that we can't see that the contours of Biblical geography might be different from ours but still fruitful and accurate.

Now, how do I explain the Babylonian epics? Easily. If the Bible's account, then it would have been passed down orally. Men who hated God who obviously corrupt His stories to fit their own inventions of polytheism and pagan idolatry. Thus, the flood is corrupted to fit Babylonian mythology, as well as the creation account. Furthermore, you will note that the Babylonian versions have significant differences. Because they are the result of pagans corrupting God's true acts to fit their invented Gods, there are very significant differences in the theology in such stories. They are polytheistic and the gods are not seen as omnipotent and supreme, but rather much more creaturely, so unless you assume the Bible is not the word of God, his contention has no weight.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Stealth3si on January 01, 2010, 03:08:24 am
But the general point is this:  Many of these creation myths and other religious beliefs are similar to one another, because they share relatively common geographical/cultural origins or were simply pushed onto indigenous peoples of other regions.  They're not similar because there is some spiritual force/god(s) flowing through the universe influencing people to write similar things; they're similar because they're influenced by each other.
These kinds of arguments were popular in so-called "history of religions" circles until several decades ago, but they were generally abandoned. Atheistic fundamentalists and some people who took older religious studies classes still haven't caught up entirely. The thesis was basically that Christian theology took its primary components from preceding traditions rather than from events which occurred in Jesus' life. Usually it works this way: Jesus preached an inner kingdom of hippie social justice, but Paul put Jesus in the framework of a "mystery religion" (a category of pagan cult contemporary with early xianity). It turns out that you have to read those pagan cults using the terms of Christian theology in order to make that case, but obviously if you're using the terms of Christian theology to read pagan cults then the thesis that the terms of Christian theology are basically lifted out of the mystery religions is false.

The stories are similar because they are products of each other, not because there is some supernatural force guiding a common story throughout each of them.
Consider the first paragraph on this website here (http://www.pocm.info/getting_started_pocm.html), which I think parallels your point:

"What the ancient evidence will show you is that ancient western culture had a conceptual model of reality, and ancient Christianity adopted that model. Ancient Pagans believed in various levels of divinity, with miraculous powers, coming down and going up to its home in the sky. Divine beings cared about people, listened to and answered their prayers. Gave them the power to prophesy. Even gave them a better deal in the eternal life that comes after death."

So the facts are:
1. They believed in some sort of non-human beings.
2. They beleived that non-human beings had non-human powers.
3. They believed that non-human beings lived in places that humans don't.
4. They believed that non-human beings interacted with humans.
5. They believed that non-human beings could provide humans with non-human knowledge and power.

Obviously these are so vague that we would only be surprised if there weren't people all over the world who believed these kinds of things. This is basically on the order of, "Many people believed things fell from the sky in ancient times, so Newton must have gotten his laws of motion from them." (There exist much better examples than this website, but...)

Leithart offers the interesting epigram, "The Devil has no stories." In other words, because only God can create out of nothing, whenever we make anything it will always be derivative in nature, so any story we write will unavoidably reflect the story, God's story. Hence we get posts like some of those above.

So, are there similarities? Sure, but not any kind of similarities that show that the fundamentals of Christian theology were derived from the mystery religions as opposed to the life of Jesus.

It's not exactly an accident that the Hebrew creation story shares great similarities with the Egyptian creation story.  It's not exactly an accident that the story of Noah shares great similarities with numerous other stories of global floods.  It's not exactly an accident that the identity of Jesus Christ shares great similarities with the identity of Mithra...it's really not that unreasonable to conclude the Egyptian creation myth was an influence.
It is true that they all have some pretty exact details (of many of these early myths) that were a little more explicit than just generalizations, to a degree, but you're going to find two things the more you study them, in particular with the identity of Jesus Christ:

1) He still looks quite a bit different in other ways and really does come looking like their gods, but completely defying the mold at the same time. He is God descending to become man, and saving His people through a selfless death and resurrection that lifts him up to Lordship over the heavens and the earth. That story is unique.

The stories are a based upon one another and developed throughout centuries side by side.  Any rational person would expect the stories to be similar given mankind's cultural development and the development of these religions throughout history.
2) If we would say that just because two religions have similar images or themes, one must have come from another, then we simply can't explain the history of religion. These connections and themes are literally global. By making this argument against Christianity you would really, eventually, have to argue for one common mother of all religions, but that wouldn't really work very well with the rest of your worldview.

The Hebrew creation story certainly takes aspects from other civilizations as well.  The Egyptian example is one of many and I used it just to throw out an easy, simple example.  As for their similarities:

http://www.aldokkan.com/religion/creation.htm
Already been dealt with from a previous thread.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: ivyruefthaler1 on January 01, 2010, 08:45:41 am
revelations
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: dkf32 on January 01, 2010, 11:09:57 am
I know God exists and I don't have to prove it to anyone. 
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on January 01, 2010, 11:12:38 am
I know God exists but I can't prove it to anyone. 
fixed
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Veryomally on January 01, 2010, 11:21:31 am
I know God exists but I can't prove it to anyone. 
fixed

You can fix it however you like, But, those who don't believe in god can't prove he doesn't exist either.

But that's besides what I was going to say, I am a happy Christian and instead of participating too actively in these arguments I let my actions and demeanor  speak for me and my faith
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Rastov on January 02, 2010, 03:28:14 pm
Are you sure you aren't talking about Babylonian mythology?
Those Egyptian myths are far older than their very different Hebrew counterparts.
I probably know where you're going with this -- that the Hebrews, who lived in Babylon, took these stories and modified them slightly for their own creation and flood stories and since language and culture have been observed to readily flow from one culture to another, that this seems by far the most likely explanation for the similarity between these older myths and Biblical stories.
Not exactly... I think the Hebrew creation story predates their Babylonian captivity. I don't doubt the creation story in Genesis far predates the existence of Israel.
There is little doubt that the Canaanite religion was influenced by some of the same myths as the Babylonians(the first empire). As all archeological evidence points to Israel resulting from a peasantry revolt inside of Canaan, the story is likely of Canaanite origin.


Quote
But the only way this has any bearing at all is if we assume that the Bible is wrong when it says it is God's Word.
How about we take a neutral stance, and see where the evidence points us?

Quote
According to the biblical account, the story of creation and the flood later on both really occurred.

The Bible clearly states that the flood destroyed everything "under heaven" (Gen 6:17). But doesn't that assume the perspective of a flat Earth? Wouldn't it be more precise to say "inside of the heavens," or something like that?

Better, I think, would be to recognize that in few if any instances does Biblical literature intend to speak "literally" (or for that matter "figuratively") in the sense that 21st-century post-Enlightenment people understand literal and figurative language. We're so convinced that the best description of the world involves the latitude and longitude of a roundish ball of matter that we can't see that the contours of Biblical geography might be different from ours but still fruitful and accurate.

Now, how do I explain the Babylonian epics? Easily. If the Bible's account, then it would have been passed down orally. Men who hated God who obviously corrupt His stories to fit their own inventions of polytheism and pagan idolatry. Thus, the flood is corrupted to fit Babylonian mythology, as well as the creation account.
You can't argue that Genesis is God's Word in one breath and then say it's 2/3 paganism in the next.
How would you even know which parts are authentic and which aren't?
Or if any of it is?

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Furthermore, you will note that the Babylonian versions have significant differences. Because they are the result of pagans corrupting God's true acts to fit their invented Gods, there are very significant differences in the theology in such stories. They are polytheistic and the gods are not seen as omnipotent and supreme, but rather much more creaturely, so unless you assume the Bible is not the word of God, his contention has no weight.
You just seemed to have assumed something a lot more confusing to me. Are you a Muslim? Because any other explanation as to what Genesis says is going to totally confound me.
Islam is the one and only source I've ever seen make the claim that the Bible was handed down by God but extremely corrupted.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: joey2011 on January 02, 2010, 06:09:41 pm
I know for a fact that God(The father) Jesus(the son)
and the holy spirit do exist because i have asthma and
i got prayed for so many times and knew that it "lessened"

I mean you can have your own opinion but i am convinced
I am healed to a point and maybe more.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on January 03, 2010, 02:52:54 am
Good for you.  :thumbsup: LMAO XD Do you take prozac too? Am I the only one who notices that atheists on this forum are the only ones being logical and not offended? :P I mean you guys are saying some harsh things but we aren't getting all butt hurt like you talking about how you have to go retreat to god now because we offended you or something. lame
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on January 03, 2010, 08:33:34 am
Am I the only one who notices that atheists on this forum are the only ones being logical and not offended?
Dude....I'm not an atheist.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on January 03, 2010, 08:34:20 am


It's their life, don't try to save them, they don't want to be saved. :angel11:
THANK YOU!!!!!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: jamene88 on January 26, 2010, 02:23:17 pm
Whenever I doubt that God exists I don't turn to my bible or religious leaders. Instead I read about the electron transport chain and ATPase. Biological systems like these could not have evolves spontaneously or b means of random mutations. These systems prove that there had to be ome element of intelligent design involved in the process. I hope this helps you 2. :)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on January 26, 2010, 10:57:54 pm
Dude.....I believe in Creator.....don't make me change my mind..........
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Stealth3si on January 26, 2010, 11:30:06 pm

According to the biblical account, the story of creation and the flood later on both really occurred.

The Bible clearly states that the flood destroyed everything "under heaven" (Gen 6:17). But doesn't that assume the perspective of a flat Earth? Wouldn't it be more precise to say "inside of the heavens," or something like that?

Better, I think, would be to recognize that in few if any instances does Biblical literature intend to speak "literally" (or for that matter "figuratively") in the sense that 21st-century post-Enlightenment people understand literal and figurative language. We're so convinced that the best description of the world involves the latitude and longitude of a roundish ball of matter that we can't see that the contours of Biblical geography might be different from ours but still fruitful and accurate.

Now, how do I explain the Babylonian epics? Easily. If the Bible's account, then it would have been passed down orally. Men who hated God who obviously corrupt His stories to fit their own inventions of polytheism and pagan idolatry. Thus, the flood is corrupted to fit Babylonian mythology, as well as the creation account.
You can't argue that...it's 2/3 paganism...Are you a Muslim?
This was not claimed. The only reason to smuggle in an Islamic presupposition is if one has to come trying to find one. If you're looking for an inconsistency in the post (or looking to make sense of what you think is an inconsistency), I don't think there needs to be one. I think that the only way to get a discrepancy out of my post is to be trying to find one.

But the only way this has any bearing at all is if we assume that the Bible is wrong when it says it is God's Word.
How about we take a neutral stance?
I don't agree such a thing exists.

Islam is the one and only source I've ever seen make the claim that the Bible was handed down by God but extremely corrupted.
Islam is unable to hold up under scrutiny with its own presuppositions. But I digress since this isn't what I was saying at all.

Are you sure you aren't talking about Babylonian mythology?
Those Egyptian myths are far older than their very different Hebrew counterparts.
I probably know where you're going with this -- that the Hebrews, who lived in Babylon, took these stories and modified them slightly for their own creation and flood stories and since language and culture have been observed to readily flow from one culture to another, that this seems by far the most likely explanation for the similarity between these older myths and Biblical stories.
Not exactly... I think the Hebrew creation story predates their Babylonian captivity. I don't doubt the creation story in Genesis far predates the existence of Israel.
There is little doubt that the Canaanite religion was influenced by some of the same myths as the Babylonians(the first empire). As all archeological evidence points to Israel resulting from a peasantry revolt inside of Canaan, the story is likely of Canaanite origin.
You'd only have a case if the story, let alone the Hebrews' apprehension of a deity, was formed by their environment.

Furthermore, you will note that the Babylonian versions have significant differences. Because they are the result of pagans corrupting God's true acts to fit their invented Gods, there are very significant differences in the theology in such stories. They are polytheistic and the gods are not seen as omnipotent and supreme, but rather much more creaturely, so unless you assume the Bible is not the word of God, his contention has no weight.
You just seemed to have assumed something a lot more confusing to me.
Unfortunately I'm afraid I can't continue to talk with you on the issue any more since I think all of your presuppositions, as you've just showed them and in your other previous post, are devoid from both Scripture and Christianity.

Because any other explanation as to what Genesis says is going to totally confound me.
I'll spare you the confoundment and leave you be.  :)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: flame6453 on January 26, 2010, 11:54:48 pm
If you want a movie to watch there is one called "The Case for a Creator" it really strengthed my faith and helped me learn some new things that i didn't know and to see God's fingerprints in more things in life.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: lynnc35 on January 27, 2010, 06:22:37 am
If God created human, than how can a human perspective be expected to prove God. Since God is the creator of humans, how or what ordacity does any human being think he can come up with to try and prove God. God created all.
The sad thing I see over and over is humans trying to prove God. And the only sure way to see God is through Faith, so while you are lingering in doubt, you will never have faith, thus never knowing truth.
Only those that believe will see. Those that have doubt are covered in spiritual blindness.

There are tons of things invisible to the human eye, just look at some of the things you have to take a heavy duty microscope to see. Don't you think a superhuman power would be thus much more invisible, there is stuff all around us we cannot see. believe you me, you don't want to see the bad stuff either. God has a shield of protection over every one of us, one day that shield will be gone, for those that didn't believe. You have a chance now, but instead of asking for God to come into your life, you push him away, thats okay though, that is the devils favorite thing, since we are sinners, and satan is the king of the world, the king of sin, their is only one way out, and that is choosing Jesus as your Savior. satan does not want you to do that, so he tells you what proof is there of God, thus keeping you from believing, thus keeping you from having faith, and you need faith to know God.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: angel379227 on January 27, 2010, 08:33:46 am
This "proof" is a bit one-sided, wouldn't you say? After all, I've heard atheists give "definitive proof" for why God does not exist, and even though I'm unbiased on the matter, at least theirs was better thought out and more articulate than this. Really guy, you're more hurting your case here than anything else. You should consider educating yourself a bit more before offering up evidence to "prove" what can never be proven. Heck you might even change your viewpoint if you do.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: GoGoKokiGo on January 27, 2010, 07:58:32 pm
This "proof" is a bit one-sided, wouldn't you say? After all, I've heard atheists give "definitive proof" for why God does not exist, and even though I'm unbiased on the matter, at least theirs was better thought out and more articulate than this. Really guy, you're more hurting your case here than anything else. You should consider educating yourself a bit more before offering up evidence to "prove" what can never be proven. Heck you might even change your viewpoint if you do.
The only person who will be hurting here is you. I can't stand when people talk like this about God^^^^^
God is God, God is Real, You cannot see or feel of which is not of the Material World.
You can't prove there is a God, Even though there is one, It is impossible.
Can you prove the sky is blue to someone who was blind all their life? Nope, either they believe you or have faith or just don't care. Can you describe a color?
I think I would have a much easier time proving to a blind person that the sky is blue, then trying to prove to them that there is an invisible Jewish zombie living in the sky.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on January 27, 2010, 08:09:19 pm
Quote
I think I would have a much easier time proving to a blind person that the sky is blue, then trying to prove to them that there is an invisible Jewish zombie living in the sky.

Well put.

Quote
You can't prove there is a God, Even though there is one, It is impossible.

This thread is called "Proof that God exists". If it's impossible, this thread is pointless and should be closed. If you're saying you know there is one, post proof. Let's not beat around the bush here with circular reasoning. We can still see and use colors.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: angel379227 on January 27, 2010, 09:14:40 pm
This "proof" is a bit one-sided, wouldn't you say? After all, I've heard atheists give "definitive proof" for why God does not exist, and even though I'm unbiased on the matter, at least theirs was better thought out and more articulate than this. Really guy, you're more hurting your case here than anything else. You should consider educating yourself a bit more before offering up evidence to "prove" what can never be proven. Heck you might even change your viewpoint if you do.
The only person who will be hurting here is you. I can't stand when people talk like this about God^^^^^

Just to be clear, I have too much respect for great spiritual figures like Mohammed or Jesus Christ to ever mock someones faith. You admitted yourself that there is no way to prove the existence of a supreme deity, so why make me out to be the God-basher here? Slow your roll, please.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Rastov on January 29, 2010, 09:27:17 pm
Because any other explanation as to what Genesis says is going to totally confound me.
I'll spare you the confoundment and leave you be.  :)
If you're unsure how to explain your views, that's fine. The only reason I engaged you to begin with was because you seemed to hold an interesting and rather unusual set of beliefs. I'm quite bored with debating issues with traditional Christians.
But I think I pissed you off by confusing your unusual brand of Christianity with Islam.
I didn't mean to offend. I find nothing wrong with Islam, so to me it wasn't an insult. One of my only two friends I trust totally and absolutely is Muslim.

Furthermore, you will note that the Babylonian versions have significant differences. Because they are the result of pagans corrupting God's true acts to fit their invented Gods, there are very significant differences in the theology in such stories. They are polytheistic and the gods are not seen as omnipotent and supreme, but rather much more creaturely, so unless you assume the Bible is not the word of God, his contention has no weight.
You just seemed to have assumed something a lot more confusing to me.
Unfortunately I'm afraid I can't continue to talk with you on the issue any more since I think all of your presuppositions, as you've just showed them and in your other previous post, are devoid from both Scripture and Christianity.
I understand Christianity. I was raised a Christian, and have studied the Bible(specifically hermeneutics) in school. The problem is that you seem to be mixing all of my statements up as my views on the issue. The Bible is clearly stating the flood happened literally. It is not my view of what it states that is outside Christianity, it is your own. I am well aware of what Christianity states on most major issues. Your view that the Bible is not the complete and exact Word of God is far from every branch of Christianity that exists.
Your view of an old Earth is also new and completely unbiblical(as you yourself conceded).

I can easily state that the Bible says the creation story is literal, AND say it didn't happen(interestingly enough, you yourself did this, yet didn't extend me the same room).
Now, how do I explain the Babylonian epics? Easily. If the Bible's account, then it would have been passed down orally. Men who hated God who obviously corrupt His stories to fit their own inventions of polytheism and pagan idolatry. Thus, the flood is corrupted to fit Babylonian mythology, as well as the creation account.
You can't argue that...it's 2/3 paganism...Are you a Muslim?
This was not claimed. The only reason to smuggle in an Islamic presupposition is if one has to come trying to find one. If you're looking for an inconsistency in the post (or looking to make sense of what you think is an inconsistency), I don't think there needs to be one. I think that the only way to get a discrepancy out of my post is to be trying to find one.
You clearly stated that the Bible has been corrupted.
Quote from: Stealth3si
Men who hated God who obviously corrupt His stories to fit their own inventions of polytheism and pagan idolatry. Thus, the flood is corrupted to fit Babylonian mythology
It was a legitimate question to ask if you were a Muslim. Islam is the only religion I've ever seen do this.
I'm unfamiliar with your denomination of church. What is it called?
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: lbeery on January 31, 2010, 10:28:29 am
We are here, that's really all the proof I need.  What really proves it to me is how many good people there are.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: angel379227 on January 31, 2010, 11:33:46 am
We are here, that's really all the proof I need.  What really proves it to me is how many good people there are.

Psh, where do you live? I'd like to move out there.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Stealth3si on January 31, 2010, 10:55:38 pm
Because any other explanation as to what Genesis says is going to totally confound me.
I'll spare you the confoundment and leave you be.  :)
If you're unsure how to explain your views, that's fine. The only reason I engaged you to begin with was because you seemed to hold an interesting and rather unusual set of beliefs. I'm quite bored with debating issues with traditional Christians.
But I think I pissed you off by confusing your unusual brand of Christianity with Islam.
I didn't mean to offend. I find nothing wrong with Islam, so to me it wasn't an insult. One of my only two friends I trust totally and absolutely is Muslim.
Haha. No, you did not anger me at all. Did you notice I put a smiley face at the end?  :wave:

Perhaps I didn't think it was worth my time to spout weird crap that is unintelligible to most people.

It doesn't matter. I still like learning, reading, and writing. So I'm here.  :)

Furthermore, you will note that the Babylonian versions have significant differences. Because they are the result of pagans corrupting God's true acts to fit their invented Gods, there are very significant differences in the theology in such stories. They are polytheistic and the gods are not seen as omnipotent and supreme, but rather much more creaturely, so unless you assume the Bible is not the word of God, his contention has no weight.
You just seemed to have assumed something a lot more confusing to me.
Unfortunately I'm afraid I can't continue to talk with you on the issue any more since I think all of your presuppositions, as you've just showed them and in your other previous post, are devoid from both Scripture and Christianity.
I understand Christianity. I was raised a Christian, and have studied the Bible(specifically hermeneutics) in school. The problem is that you seem to be mixing all of my statements up as my views on the issue. The Bible is clearly stating the flood happened literally. It is not my view of what it states that is outside Christianity, it is your own. I am well aware of what Christianity states on most major issues. Your view that the Bible is not the complete and exact Word of God is far from every branch of Christianity that exists....I can easily state that the Bible says the creation story is literal, AND say it didn't happen(interestingly enough, you yourself did this, yet didn't extend me the same room).
I am sorry if I did this but you are arguing a strawman.

Now, how do I explain the Babylonian epics? Easily. If the Bible's account, then it would have been passed down orally. Men who hated God who obviously corrupt His stories to fit their own inventions of polytheism and pagan idolatry. Thus, the flood is corrupted to fit Babylonian mythology, as well as the creation account.
You can't argue that...it's 2/3 paganism...Are you a Muslim?
This was not claimed. The only reason to smuggle in an Islamic presupposition is if one has to come trying to find one. If you're looking for an inconsistency in the post (or looking to make sense of what you think is an inconsistency), I don't think there needs to be one. I think that the only way to get a discrepancy out of my post is to be trying to find one.
You clearly stated that the Bible has been corrupted.
Quote from: Stealth3si
Men who hated God who obviously corrupt His stories to fit their own inventions of polytheism and pagan idolatry. Thus, the flood is corrupted to fit Babylonian mythology
You're referring to the biblical account but I'm actually talking about the event of the so-called "flood" that you raised, right here. So I fail to see how this equates to stating the Bible has been corrupted.

Your view of an old Earth is also new and completely unbiblical(as you yourself conceded).
Where did I espouse the view of an old Earth?

Whether or not it is unbiblical shouldnt' be an issue if we ask the right questions but only if we take seriously the broader biblical narrative about creation and redemption and the kingdom of god and divine covenant and incarnation and crucifixion and resurrection and ascension and outpouring.

It was a legitimate question to ask if you were a Muslim. Islam is the only religion I've ever seen do this.
I'm unfamiliar with your denomination of church. What is it called?
I'm non-denominational. What about you?
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: debraleesparks on January 31, 2010, 10:57:33 pm
 :thumbsup:I know God exists.. but I can't prove God's a WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: angel379227 on February 04, 2010, 09:32:42 pm
The Bible teaches us that there are 2 types of people in this world, those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who suppress the truth of God's existence.

This is interpretation, by the way, and not backed by scripture. You just double-posted a lotta facepalm material there.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on February 05, 2010, 07:37:49 am
Stillll talking about god?
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: angel379227 on February 05, 2010, 07:46:52 am
The Bible teaches us that there are 2 types of people in this world, those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who suppress the truth of God's existence.

This is interpretation, by the way, and not backed by scripture. You just double-posted a lotta facepalm material there.

Would you please Fugg Off

I thought you had me on "Ignore", lulz.

Yes, keep battling fire with fire, Marie. That's exactly as Christ would have wanted it.    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: nateisinmilwaukee on February 05, 2010, 07:57:32 am
There are some real crusaders on fc...my goodness
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on February 05, 2010, 10:21:37 am
Quote
Yes, keep battling fire with fire, Marie. That's exactly as Christ would have wanted it.

I tip my hat to you. You are 'fugging' cool in my book.

Quote
There are some real crusaders on fc...my goodness

Indeed. If this is how the majority of americans think, I am truly scared for our future. We need to be more open-minded on this subject-- to get passed ourselves and listen to others and respect their ideas. We need to rid ourselves of our superiority complex. Speaking of which I still have yet to see one ounce of proof. You people tend to say you have proof he exists yet you post none. I am asking for proof-- an explanation of the belief. Example being the belief in gravity existing. Not a faith-based answer because that runs parallel to explaining the existance of Santa Clause. By definition that is not proof.

If the thread was named 'Proof through faith that God exists' that would be fine. I could accept that and respect it. But I doubt the OP has any idea what I'm asking for.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: angel379227 on February 05, 2010, 11:21:50 am
There are some real crusaders on fc...my goodness

You have to understand it's an interesting subject. I see a lot of folks complaining about the amount of theological discussions going on around here, but hell, these discussions seem to be the only thing keepin' this forum from growing stagnant. What else you wanna talk about, what colors are pretty, or what foods you eat? Pha. (Not talking to you, Nate)

Gimme a good ol' religious debate any day. It's a point of interest for me and so helps to work out them brain muscles. That it can oftentimes prove very humorous is just an added bonus.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on February 05, 2010, 04:47:19 pm
Quote
Would you please Fugg Off

Marieelissa...you've lost any respect anyone could have for you with your constant misinterpretations, strange mental stories, creationist website garbled junk, antagonistic qualities, and massive contradictions. Sure you could tell everyone and I to "fugg off" but at this point we've all learned to chuckle at it all. If you want to be taken seriously and not be taken as a 12 year old fool as you are acting now, avoid these types of threads. You are incapable of arguing.

...but I expect a massive blue, purple, or red colored post by you that you mixed with the five things I listed above.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: queenofnines on February 05, 2010, 07:28:05 pm
marieelisa, those events that you speak of are all completely possible without god. 

The most recent one that happened to me is there was a Comcast router my husband and I had to turn in before we moved, but we got to the place right after it closed, and it was our only option that day to turn it in but couldn't.  The employees could see us right through the door but refused to let us drop it off quick.  We were just going to drop it at the door and take a possible fine, but a nice man was also there after it closed and offered to come back and turn it in for us the next day so we wouldn't get fined.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Rastov on February 05, 2010, 09:31:29 pm
You're referring to the biblical account but I'm actually talking about the event of the so-called "flood" that you raised, right here. So I fail to see how this equates to stating the Bible has been corrupted.
Because if the Biblical account is wrong, then the Bible is impure. It's God's direct dictation or it isn't.
If the flood happened one way, and the Bible presents it as happening another way, then the Bible is wrong, and not directly from God.
And the story being influenced even just in the way it's told by pagan religions is the definition of corruption.

Where did I espouse the view of an old Earth?
I suppose you didn't. But if you don't think the flood story is accurately relayed, I wonder how you have confidence in genealogies, that predate writing. I could remember a story about the flood a lot more faithfully than a list of dozens of ancestors, I think.


I'm non-denominational. What about you?
I was raised as a fundamentalist/independent Baptist. Now I'm just a deist.
I went in circles for years pointing out that 3/4 of Christology is not even based on anything found in the Bible, but I have to admit that the framework is in place for good reason. The Bible is pretty much a decentralized book that doesn't seem to look fondly on large hierarchical churches.
Without that structure you'd inevitably devolve into a Unitarian "personal faith" type thing. It's impossible to maintain unity like that.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on February 05, 2010, 10:22:06 pm
Your last two posts make no sense, Marieelissa. No sense at all.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on February 06, 2010, 08:31:11 am
Quote
It makes sense. You just don't understand it. I get it alot.

The moronic statement of the new decade right here, folks.

Quote
If you think it is the truth that there is no God then tell your kids the damn truth and stop fabricating life and death and the after life or what not.

I know many families that take the agnostic and atheist path. They come from fantastic households and have great futures ahead of them. I saw one horseback ride last week! She's awesome!

Quote
Telling your kids there is a God seems like a way to make life better or death better and basically shelter them from the truth. When gandpa dies it is much easier to say they went to heaven rather than they are dead and that's it. They rot in the ground. It's like the Santa Claus lie. So screw them up and tell them what death really is next time Mr. Goldfish dies or whatever because I know it would screw a kid up at first but then they would get over it.  If there is no God then tell your kids that. Stop sugar coating death. Maybe you already do. As a parent you lie to protect your kids. Got it?

You have some massive mental issues I cannot even begin to describe. Sorry to just shove it in there but...wow...your reasoning skills are beyond recovery. Your naivety surpasses the lines of reality. Lying to your kids? Pointless lies won't screw up a kids trust in the liar? Do I really even need to tell you why you're wrong here? You honestly can't figure it out?

Quote
You know I was forced to believe out of fear but I think I am Agnostic

I assure you you're not. You constantly quote christian doctrine and websites and talk of heaven and hell like they're real places. Therefore you are the furthest from the crown of agnosticism.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Falconer02 on February 06, 2010, 08:53:06 am
Quote
I was told I didn't know how to argue and you are right because I don't argue with people, I was just basically chatting

Again, you don't know how to argue. You weren't adding anything to the argument except your mindless gibberish.

Quote
I will find other topics to discuss because this *bleep* is crazy and a waste of time and I can get my 30 posts some other way.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: jonesmeldn on February 06, 2010, 09:04:13 am
Look around you and all that nature has to offer,there is your proof that GOD DOES EXIST
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: mysticlady59 on February 06, 2010, 09:12:08 am
 :angel11: god is not to be argued he is real and it is all on faith and hope .without that you arent alive anyway so we all have a right to our own opinion so why not just enjoy what you believe in but in the end i think no i know god is real he has healed me many times  :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: queenofnines on February 06, 2010, 05:24:09 pm
I have yet to see any proof that a God exists so either you believe or don't.

Wow, I'm surprised to see you say that.  In many other places you claimed that you do have proof.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Stealth3si on March 17, 2010, 07:14:28 pm
You're referring to the biblical account but I'm actually talking about the event of the so-called "flood" that you raised, right here. So I fail to see how this equates to stating the Bible has been corrupted.
Because if the Biblical account is wrong, then the Bible is impure. It's God's direct dictation or it isn't.
Here you're assuming the Bible is wrong when it says it's the Word of God. However, this isn't a proper answer to your question of taking a neutral stance.

Previously, I said I didn't believe such a thing exists, so I'm interested in hearing what you mean by "neutral stance"; how does one take a neutral stance when reading these old epics? And this isn't annoying presuppositionalist bait; I'm just asking what criteria you're using so I can answer your question. I think it is an interesting thought experiment; I'm just not sure where to begin.

You're referring to the biblical account but I'm actually talking about the event of the so-called "flood" that you raised, right here. So I fail to see how this equates to stating the Bible has been corrupted.
If the flood happened one way, and the Bible presents it as happening another way, then the Bible is wrong, and not directly from God.
And the story being influenced even just in the way it's told by pagan religions is the definition of corruption.
Red herring. My claim was about the Babylonion epics. See below.

Where did I espouse the view of an old Earth?
I suppose you didn't. But if you don't think the flood story is accurately relayed, I wonder how you have confidence in genealogies, that predate writing. I could remember a story about the flood a lot more faithfully than a list of dozens of ancestors, I think.
I think there's just confusion over what I'm referring to. Those comments are about Babylonian myths, not the Bible. My claim was that, if the flood actually happened, then it would have been passed down by everyone, not just the righteous. And the wicked would have spun the story in a way that justified themselves, in a way that fit their religious claims. But since I am already a believer of the Bible being the true record, that records it accurately in light of Yahweh, the true God, it shouldn't be unreasonable for me to suspect that the Babylonian, and other pagan versions, being that they deny Yahweh, have to change the story to fit their system.

In light of this, my original post still might not make sense to a Deist like you, however, because I believe the Bible is a true account of history, it would make sense to me that other pagan myths, though they may be based on true events, say false things about them, i.e., they take the flood story, real history, and then tell it with different gods, bringing on the flood for different reasons, and with different results. Hence, my original question, "How do I explain the Babylonian epics?"

Now, I'm quite aware I'm not taking a neutral position here, as I said earlier that I fail to see how can such a thing exist. That being said, this would sort of hark to your original question, so if you're attempting to take a 'neutral stance,' then what is your criteria you're using so I can try to explain this (if I can.)

I'm non-denominational. What about you?
I was raised as a fundamentalist/independent Baptist. Now I'm just a deist.
You might as well be an atheist.

I fail to see why a Deist must cling on to the idea of a supernatural.

Quote
I went in circles for years pointing out that 3/4 of Christology is not even based on anything found in the Bible, but I have to admit that the framework is in place for good reason. The Bible is pretty much a decentralized book that doesn't seem to look fondly on large hierarchical churches.
Without that structure you'd inevitably devolve into a Unitarian "personal faith" type thing. It's impossible to maintain unity like that.
This is true only if you deny the inherent diversity of Scripture to where stagnation occurs, which can be caused when Gnosticism dominates much of fundamentalism.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Alphasee on March 17, 2010, 07:16:43 pm
The title of this thread made me LOL.

There is no proof for an intangible thing. But there's also no proof contradicting the existence of said intangible thing.

The only proof is faith. The rest of you are wrong.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Stealth3si on March 17, 2010, 07:21:21 pm
The title of this thread made me LOL.

There is no proof for an intangible thing. But there's also no proof contradicting the existence of said intangible thing.
This sort of reminds me of what Cuba Gooding Jr's character said in "Wrong Turn At Tahoe."  :P

Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on March 17, 2010, 07:22:14 pm
Stealth3si.....Identity, Christian?
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Stealth3si on March 17, 2010, 07:25:42 pm
Stealth3si.....Identity, Christian?
Yes. You?

 :peace: in Christ.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: walksalone11 on March 17, 2010, 07:56:43 pm
Stealth3si.....Identity, Christian?
Yes. You?

 :peace: in Christ.
No
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Stealth3si on March 17, 2010, 08:37:08 pm
Stealth3si.....Identity, Christian?
Yes. You?

 :peace: in Christ.
No
Okay.

Edit: I just saw your other post (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=12988.msg151028#msg151028) about "Christian Identity. " It's interesting because I seen them in an episode of "Gangland" where their mission was to "purify" America into a land of whites. So if your question (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=10166.msg150993#msg150993) was framed in this context, then my answer should be 'no' since it wasn't how I understood your question to be. Further, if my original answer prompted you to post that or if I have led you to believe I identify myself as part of the "Christian Identity" movement, then I am sorry about the confusion.  :)
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Alphasee on March 17, 2010, 08:48:53 pm
I believe in God. And Jesus, because of my FAITH. There is no physical proof for a metaphysical idea. Sorry gaiz.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: GoGoKokiGo on March 18, 2010, 12:06:37 am
I believe in God. And Jesus, because of my FAITH. There is no physical proof for a metaphysical idea. Sorry gaiz.
I like that you admit that.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: jaseyxrae on March 18, 2010, 02:42:33 pm
there is many talks about god in here..and of course im a firm belive of the father , son and the holy ghost ....even thow i know i dont have to proof this to anybody because god can only do it for you himself ....im just doing this because people keep sayingthere is no sintific eveindece that god exists .....and they always post proof of evolution soo... let me start with my evidence ..this is long.. so if you feel like sitting here.. reading this go head...i strongly reccomend you do ..ive been telling people that i did resererch in school on this but i never got around to hit so heres my  evidence ..or my research whatever ..you want to call it ..and so im going to shareit with you




Proof


 main point : Nothing can only create Nothing before the universe begain somthing must have always existed

  1.  the first law of thermodynamics:Energy is eternal it confirms that energy cannot be  created or destroyed  no begging or uncreated or no end  thats what eternal means  ... you cant  claim that this energy existed  ni a known universe because  scientist have proven that the universe didint always exist  and this energy source that was presence before the universe begain  had to have power beyond anything  we can begain to imagine considering it had to tranfer its energy to billions of stars and galaxies  , a seperate  eternal  energy source that exists outside of the universe had to have supplied or tranfered its energy onto the universe because again the universe did not exist  proven again by scentist themselfs  it is not unreasonable to assume this anormus energy was god  we resonably have two options  to determine this energy , it could dumb , uncontious and vague energy source
witch is illagitamite seeing as thow  we can observe  complexity order and desghn through out the universe  the most logical ansewer is thatgod created the universe  if you dont agree...then your just being unresonable about the possiblity of god



 2. here is an actuell scientist  who was an athiest that sought out to see if god exists and he found that he does



ROCKVILLE, Maryland (CNN) -- I am a scientist and a believer, and I find no conflict between those world views.

As the director of the Human Genome Project, I have led a consortium of scientists to read out the 3.1 billion letters of the human genome, our own DNA instruction book. As a believer, I see DNA, the information molecule of all living things, as God's language, and the elegance and complexity of our own bodies and the rest of nature as a reflection of God's plan.

I did not always embrace these perspectives. As a graduate student in physical chemistry in the 1970s, I was an atheist, finding no reason to postulate the existence of any truths outside of mathematics, physics and chemistry. But then I went to medical school, and encountered life and death issues at the bedsides of my patients. Challenged by one of those patients, who asked "What do you believe, doctor?", I began searching for answers.

I had to admit that the science I loved so much was powerless to answer questions such as "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we die?" (Watch Francis Collins discuss how he came to believe in God )

I had always assumed that faith was based on purely emotional and irrational arguments, and was astounded to discover, initially in the writings of the Oxford scholar C.S. Lewis and subsequently from many other sources, that one could build a very strong case for the plausibility of the existence of God on purely rational grounds. My earlier atheist's assertion that "I know there is no God" emerged as the least defensible. As the British writer G.K. Chesterton famously remarked, "Atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative."

But reason alone cannot prove the existence of God. Faith is reason plus revelation, and the revelation part requires one to think with the spirit as well as with the mind. You have to hear the music, not just read the notes on the page. Ultimately, a leap of faith is required.

For me, that leap came in my 27th year, after a search to learn more about God's character led me to the person of Jesus Christ. Here was a person with remarkably strong historical evidence of his life, who made astounding statements about loving your neighbor, and whose claims about being God's son seemed to demand a decision about whether he was deluded or the real thing. After resisting for nearly two years, I found it impossible to go on living in such a state of uncertainty, and I became a follower of Jesus.

So, some have asked, doesn't your brain explode? Can you both pursue an understanding of how life works using the tools of genetics and molecular biology, and worship a creator God? Aren't evolution and faith in God incompatible? Can a scientist believe in miracles like the resurrection?

Actually, I find no conflict here, and neither apparently do the 40 percent of working scientists who claim to be believers. Yes, evolution by descent from a common ancestor is clearly true. If there was any lingering doubt about the evidence from the fossil record, the study of DNA provides the strongest possible proof of our relatedness to all other living things.

But why couldn't this be God's plan for creation? True, this is incompatible with an ultra-literal interpretation of Genesis, but long before Darwin, there were many thoughtful interpreters like St. Augustine, who found it impossible to be exactly sure what the meaning of that amazing creation story was supposed to be. So attaching oneself to such literal interpretations in the face of compelling scientific evidence pointing to the ancient age of Earth and the relatedness of living things by evolution seems neither wise nor necessary for the believer.

I have found there is a wonderful harmony in the complementary truths of science and faith. The God of the Bible is also the God of the genome. God can be found in the cathedral or in the laboratory. By investigating God's majestic and awesome creation, science can actually be a means of worship.


 AMIT GOSWAMI
3. Before you read any further, stop and close your eyes for a moment. Now consider the following question: for the moment your eyes were closed, did the world still exist even though you weren't conscious of it? How do you know? If this sounds like the kind of unanswerable brain teaser your Philosophy 101 professor used to employ to stretch your philosophical imagination, you might be surprised to discover that there are actually physicists at reputable universities who believe they have answered this question—and their answer, believe it or not, is no.

Now consider something even more intriguing. Imagine for a moment the entire history of the universe. According to all the data scientists have been able to gather, it exploded into existence some fifteen billion years ago, setting the stage for a cosmic dance of energy and light that continues to this day. Now imagine the history of planet Earth. An amorphous cloud of dust emerging out of that primordial fireball, it slowly coalesced into a solid orb, found its way into gravitational orbit around the sun, and through a complex interaction of light and gases over billions of years, generated an atmosphere and a biosphere capable of not only giving birth to, but sustaining and proliferating, life.

Now imagine that none of the above ever happened. Consider instead the possibility that the entire story only existed as an abstract potential—a cosmic dream among countless other cosmic dreams—until, in that dream, life somehow evolved to the point that a conscious, sentient being came into existence. At that moment, solely because of the conscious observation of that individual, the entire universe, including all of the history leading up to that point, suddenly came into being. Until that moment, nothing had actually ever happened. In that moment, fifteen billion years happened. If this sounds like nothing more than a complicated backdrop for a science fiction story or a secular version of one of the world's great creation myths, hold on to your hat. According to physicist Amit Goswami, the above description is a scientifically viable explanation of how the universe came into being.

(will continue on next page ..cuz it excedds the maximumm linth)

I was interested in reading this to see what your opinion was, but after the first few lines, i just felt stupider. Yeah, stupider, see? Why don't you try correcting your spelling, grammar, and everything else that's wrong with this.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: ivyalexandra on March 18, 2010, 03:37:06 pm
i was brought up to be a Buddhist in South Korea

i can respect your beliefs

but i don't really see the need for God or god

or sitting in a weird position for 6 to 10 hours (ugh)

you try it

but at least i can stay squatted on the floor longer than you can^^

IvyA
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: Alphasee on March 18, 2010, 10:36:33 pm
I believe in God. And Jesus, because of my FAITH. There is no physical proof for a metaphysical idea. Sorry gaiz.
I like that you admit that.

I will never, EVER deny the existence of God. It's just really, really sad how out-of-hand people have gotten with the whole idea. They create all these proofs for something that doesn't need proving. If someone believes in something that is beyond any earthly thing in the first place, it's something that is not going to have physical proofs anyways. I don't know why people keep trying to do it. Maybe they're just confused themselves and they have nothing better to do.

Believe whatever you want. Even a true Christian is "supposed" to believe in the saying live and let live. If someone doesn't believe what you do, let them be! It is not your job to (quite literally) crucify them for not believing the same thing. Who knows. According to their religion (or ideas) it might be the same.

Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: cece12 on March 19, 2010, 07:19:56 am
He woke me up this glorious warm almost Spring morning! Two beautiful girls a wonderful husband, kept me mostly sane through trauma and drama...that's just part of my proof.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: bcdma on March 19, 2010, 07:25:40 am
I guess I am in that middle gray area called agnosticism.  I really haven't seen proof either way .
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: queenofnines on March 19, 2010, 09:07:01 am
I will never, EVER deny the existence of God. It's just really, really sad how out-of-hand people have gotten with the whole idea. They create all these proofs for something that doesn't need proving. If someone believes in something that is beyond any earthly thing in the first place, it's something that is not going to have physical proofs anyways. I don't know why people keep trying to do it. Maybe they're just confused themselves and they have nothing better to do.

Yes, it certainly DOES need proving, as belief in god/religion has the power to dictate one's entire life (often for the worst).  The people you describe are not confused but in fact, have had the courage to examine the real evidence.  You appear to be one of those people that would be scared sh*tless to learn there's no god, because you absolutely refuse to open your mind to that reality.  I could be wrong, though.
Title: Re: Proof that God exists
Post by: UniversalLove214 on March 19, 2010, 09:35:43 am
Once we all understand that we have been
conditioned from birth to believe certain things,
then we will understand that we are never to blame for
who we are, but in all actuality it's our environment, that's
to blame, and our environment consists of money, greed,
violence, and a whole host of horrible things......that we can
cure; if we understand, that religion and money has enslaved us,
so a few groups at the top can live life, like emperors, and these
same people are just like us, conditioned by their environment.


 :peace: :heart: We Are Everything, There Is No You Or Me......Never Has Been.