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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: InKane on December 24, 2009, 01:34:09 am

Title: The proof that God exists...
Post by: InKane on December 24, 2009, 01:34:09 am
...has yet to be seen. Why are these topics still here?
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: MorbidRaccoon on December 24, 2009, 10:22:40 am
hahahaha xD
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 24, 2009, 10:23:24 pm
Does someone have proof that He doesn't exist?  

Does someone have proof there's not a pink unicorn under my bed?  How about the talking teapot in my closet?

You don't prove things don't exist.  It doesn't work that way.  The burden of proof is on those who make the positive claim.

Seriously if the best case you have for the existence of something is "you can't prove it doesn't exist," your case is horrible and an insult to human intellect.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 25, 2009, 01:53:45 am
Proof there IS...proof there ISN'T...it's been debated forever.  No matter how one chooses to think, one better be sure it's the right choice.  To believe/live like God DOES exist and then die and find out He doesn't exist really wouldn't be much of a problem.  To believe/live like God DOESN'T exist and then die and find out He does exist...well, wouldn't want to be in them shoes.

It doesn't make any difference.  The mathematical odds that someone who believes in no god(s) is correct are the exact same mathematical odds that someone who does believe in god(s) is correct.  There are, realistically, an infinite amount of gods that could be proposed.  The odds of you choosing the right one are ridiculously tiny.  The odds are no different for someone who doesn't believe in any gods.  There is an equal chance that either person will be correct, from a mathematical perspective.

As for your reasoning, it is the commonly used Pascal's Wager and simply has huge holes in the logic.  I'm fairly sure you could point out some of these holes as they're amazingly obvious (it's kind of shocking someone as intelligent as Pascal didn't catch them):

1)  You assume it's a 50/50 shot at being correct, when in fact (as I explained above) there could be any number of gods and they could judge based on completely different things.  For all you know, there is a being that rewards those who are skeptical/seek hard proof and punishes those who follow blindly on faith alone.  Maybe there's a god that rewards those who do cart wheels and punishes those who don't.  Maybe there's a god that rewards those who take in stray animals and punishes those who don't.  So on and so forth.  The odds that you pick the right god(s) are absolutely not a 50/50 shot.

2)  You assume any god(s) would be pleased or accept someone who believes "just in case" or just to avoid punishment.  Why would any god accept someone who "believes" just to avoid punishment?  Any god would reasonably see right through that.

3)  You assume belief is a conscious, point choice.  I'm inclined to say this is false, or at least not entirely true.  We are products of our environment.  Everything that has ever happened in your life shapes your beliefs.  You can't go back and remove certain events from your life.  They shape you regardless.

Your implication seems to be:  "What if you're wrong?"  And to you, I pose the same question:  What if you're wrong?  What if you're wrong about Allah?  What if you're wrong about Thor?  What if you're wrong about the god that rewards skepticism?  What if you're wrong about the giant spaghetti monster?

As for "not wanting to be in those shoes:"  Frankly I would much rather not spend eternity with a being that knowingly subjects its own creations to infinite punishment for a finite amount of sin.  Nor would I want to spend eternity with a being that, by the definition of omniscience, is fully knowledgeable who is going to believe/disbelieve trillions of years before that person is even born (in other words, pre-destination).  Nor would I want to spend eternity with a being that punishes people who spend their whole lives being extremely moral, charitable, helpful, etc. just because they question the being's presence.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Sohcahtoa on December 25, 2009, 02:20:31 am
Proof there IS...proof there ISN'T...it's been debated forever.  No matter how one chooses to think, one better be sure it's the right choice.  To believe/live like God DOES exist and then die and find out He doesn't exist really wouldn't be much of a problem.  To believe/live like God DOESN'T exist and then die and find out He does exist...well, wouldn't want to be in them shoes.

This is called Pascal's Wager, and its a terrible argument, because it doesn't account for the possibility that you worshipped the wrong god.

If Islam is the "correct" religion, and you were a Christian, you're going to deal with whatever punishment the Islamic god has for you.  But if you're Islamic, and Christianity was "correct," then you're burning in hell for worshipping a false prophet.

Most religions have a clause somewhere that states that following another god is blasphemy, and you will deal with some sort of eternal punishment.  Choosing to believe in a god is no safer than choosing NOT to believe.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: dougmattson on December 25, 2009, 02:37:14 am
HE exists because everybody can't be wrong as we're celebrating his birthday today. HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 25, 2009, 03:15:24 am
HE exists because everybody can't be wrong as we're celebrating his birthday today. HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Actually we're celebrating the festival of Saturnalia and the winter solstice, holidays hijacked by Christianity some years ago to gain more power over people.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Sohcahtoa on December 25, 2009, 07:27:52 pm
um...

Those streaks of color are prove nothing except that religious fanatics will jump to conclusions.

A fire could have stained that glass or caused it to warp to create those streaks.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 25, 2009, 09:40:36 pm
50/50 odds?  Kind of like playing Russian Roulette with one's soul isn't it?

Did you try to comprehend what I said?  One of the major points I focused on was the fact that it's not a 50/50 chance...the odds are not 50/50.  The odds are much worse than that and the odds that anyone is correct in their claims on a deity are exactly the same.  I tried to make that as clear as possible.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 26, 2009, 03:00:30 am
yep, I comprehended what you said

I'm skeptical you really did given what you continue to post.

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it would seem there can only be 1 true GOD (regardless of what He's called), one Supreme Being and that would be what makes Him God (because the topic was on proving God's existence not that "gods" exist.)

That's a pretty mighty assumption.  The popularity of monotheistic religious beliefs is fairly 'new' relatively speaking.

But we'll run with it just for the sake of it.  So we establish there is a single god, a single ruler of all there is to rule.  The issue is still no different than it was in my previous post:  What makes you think you're doing the things that this single god rewards for? That god could reward/punish based on any criteria.  That single god could simply not abide by the concept of reward/punishment; perhaps that god is truly all forgiving and all accepting regardless of anything.  What makes you so sure that single god doesn't reward skeptical people who search for tangible or logical proof?  What makes you so sure that single god isn't a sociopath who throws everybody into eternal damnation, regardless of how they lived their life?

You can't be sure.  You're playing the odds, just as everybody else is.  The odds that you are going to be correct in your choice of what this single god wants are still infinitesimally small.  And again, these odds are the same for everybody; everybody has an equal chance of being correct no matter what they believe with respect to this single deity.  It's still not 50/50 even if there truly is just a single 'supreme being,' simply because you have no sure knowledge on how that single 'supreme being' judges.

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So I think those that feel that those kind of odds are so great that they can play Russian Roulette with their soul in the afterlife should put their "money where their mouth is" so to speak and instead of waiting ---take their odds RIGHT NOW so that others can actually enjoy their peace that comes from knowing where they will be spending eternity.

Again (and this is why I really don't think you comprehended), a non-believer is not playing Russian Roulette with their soul any more than a believer.  The odds that a believer is correct in their beliefs are EXACTLY the same as the odds that a non-believer is correct in their lack of belief.  Maybe I'll use a different word:

The odds that a believer will be wrong in their beliefs are EXACTLY the same as the odds that a non-believer will be wrong in their lack of beliefs.  In other words, the odds that you, as a believer, will be punished in the afterlife are EXACTLY the same as the odds that I, a non-believer, will be punished.  They are identical.  The same.  Not different. You don't have a better chance of being correct.  I don't know how else to spell it out.

In any case, I assume you're implying non-believers should off themselves, which really makes no sense to me.  Most non-believers don't believe in any sort of afterlife; they believe this life is all you get and you should make the most of it.  Why would they be the group to jump off a bridge?  

If anything, it's those who you say "know where they'll spend eternity" who should off themselves -- if you truly think life after death is going to be better than on Earth and you're going to heaven to receive eternal happiness why don't you speed up the process?  Why are you sticking around here when you're so sure there's something much better?

Frankly, neither group should voluntarily perish.  It's a pretty nonsensical idea all in all.

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If someone found a treasure mine LOADED full of precious gold, jewels and they knew the supply inside was UNLIMITED.  Would you keep it all to yourself?   Would you share with just family and friends?  What if your best friend was broke and having a hard time, you told them about your riches and they didn't believe you?  You gave them some bars of gold and a bag of diamonds but they won't take them because they believe they are fake.  You show them the papers where you had the items appraised but they don't believe you.  You tell them to go get the items appraised and get some food with the money before they starve to death.  They don't believe the items are real so they refuse to waste their time getting the appraisal.  Eventually, you get tired of arguing.  You KNOW you have the treasure and it's real.  The friend eventually starves to death for lack of unbelief or will go get that appraisal but ultimately, it's the friends choice.  So, that would be WHY those that believe in God "pester" and sometimes "irritate" those who don't believe.  They are trying to share the treasure they have found with a friend.....and waiting for that friend to share the treasure.

The analogy is not valid.  If you physically showed me the treasure mine full of precious metals and jewels, I would certainly believe you.  Why?  Because you provided logical, physical proof that such a treasure mine existed.  Has such an exhibit of proof been done in the case of a god(s)?  No, not at all.  What you have is a book full of stone age principles, thousands of contradictions, historical inaccuracies, and fairy tales written by people who never even met their savior first hand.  That is all the "proof" you have.

As for this being the reason people push belief:  You really think it's necessary?  It's impossible to drive down three miles of road where I live without seeing at least 4-5 churches.  It's impossible to drive through my state without seeing multiple billboards telling me I'll burn in hell if I don't repent.  It's difficult for me to walk through the downtown region of the city I live in without being preached to.  

It's as simple as this:  People know you're there.  They know where your churches are, they know where to find your information, and they know religious people are foaming at the mouth to preach away.  If people are interested, they will come to you (crazy idea, I know).  And the people who are not interested will not come to you.  So have patience.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Falconer02 on December 26, 2009, 08:51:51 am
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The analogy is valid--  the friend was given the "wealth" but it was up to them to take it and do something with it for themselves.  I can show someone the proof of my "treasure" by showing them my life and living what I believe.  My faith is more than just talk, it's a "working" faith.  I can tell them about the power of prayer and the power of Jesus and what He's done in my life...and tell them if they go ask Him for an "appraisal" or a verification that He is for REAL---He WILL verify without fail. Get that treasure appraised--- If anyone wants to know if God REALLY exists...why not just go right to the source and ask Him to prove Himself to you??

No, your analogy really isn't valid. I understand you may think I'm falling into your 'appraisal failure' speech but you must understand since it simply works for you, it won't work for everyone. Especially if they try.

Put yourself in our shoes for a moment. If I came to you saying you have little sperm-like alien creatures that you cannot see attaching themselves to you and that these creatures cause you to sin and the only way to get rid of them is to be read by an strange device called an 'e-meter'...and that there were interstellar wars happening trillions of years ago by an intergalactic warlord named Xenu (scientology belief system)...I'd imagine you'd think I was nuts. But then I continued pestering you with my beliefs and showed you why it's real because it's working for me and that this is the only true way of thinking and then used your appraisal speech, you'd begin to push back and deny it since it's so fallible.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: walksalone11 on December 26, 2009, 03:50:57 pm
I propose that "Gods" court operates much the same as the US justice system in that one can be found guilty and condemned for assessory to as well as after the fact.

There for seeings how we all know beyond a reasonable doubt that there has been millions upon millions of murders and other crimes against humanity committed by and in the name of Christianity, you are ALL going to hell for knowledge of, support of and enabling a terrorist organization.

Prove me wrong. :0p
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 26, 2009, 05:41:41 pm
The analogy is valid--  the friend was given the "wealth" but it was up to them to take it and do something with it for themselves.  I can show someone the proof of my "treasure" by showing them my life and living what I believe.

You can show them the proof that you hold some belief (this isn't that extraordinary of a claim).  You can't show them the proof that what you believe physically exists.  Your life is not proof, nor is the fact that you hold a belief in this being.  That is circular reasoning.  There is no physical proof; your belief is purely faith based, by definition.

This is not the same in the treasure mine example -- in this example, you can show them the treasure physically exists.  They can hold it in their hands, they can see it, they can observe it, they can test if it's real gold/silver/whatever, etc.  This is not faith based at all.

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My faith is more than just talk, it's a "working" faith.  I can tell them about the power of prayer and the power of Jesus and what He's done in my life...and tell them if they go ask Him for an "appraisal" or a verification that He is for REAL---He WILL verify without fail. Get that treasure appraised

Again, there is no physical proof supporting what you imply are manifestations of a god/Jesus in your life.  If you pray for your life to get better and your life gets better, big deal?  If you pray to make it through the day tomorrow and you actually make it through the day, big deal?  These same exact things happened to billions of other people who didn't pray for anything.

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If anyone wants to know if God REALLY exists...why not just go right to the source and ask Him to prove Himself to you??

Oddly enough, thousands, probably millions, of people have been doing this for centuries with no success.  I, myself, was a practicing Catholic for well over half my life and don't recall any proof being shown.  I recall being told to have faith -- that's about it.  That doesn't suffice as proof.

Clearly God doesn't want to be known as he created a universe that appears to not need a creator, created life that appears not to need a creator, provided a book full of contradictions, inaccuracies, and baseless claims that surely imply it wasn't inspired by an omniscient being, etc.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: walksalone11 on December 26, 2009, 07:37:59 pm
God exists
Oh?.......ok.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: yelenaily on December 26, 2009, 11:16:32 pm
God exists

You're not gonna get your $3 credit like that if thats what you're trying to accomplish with these replies
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: walksalone11 on December 27, 2009, 07:14:24 am
I propose that "Gods" court operates much the same as the US justice system in that one can be found guilty and condemned for assessory to as well as after the fact.

There for seeings how we all know beyond a reasonable doubt that there has been millions upon millions of murders and other crimes against humanity committed by and in the name of Christianity, you are ALL going to hell for knowledge of, support of and enabling a terrorist organization.

Prove me wrong. :0p
    There is no doubt in my mind that someday every single person is going to have to give an account to their Maker for everything they have done.  Those who have found God will have Jesus as their lawyer and I don't think He's ever lost a case.  
I'm not talking about ones own actions, I am talking about enabling with support for an organization that continually commits and encourages heinous acts and crimes against humanity.
Not even Jebus can lie your way out of it in front of Creator.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Falconer02 on December 27, 2009, 08:31:46 am
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Clearly God doesn't want to be known as he created a universe that appears to not need a creator, created life that appears not to need a creator, provided a book full of contradictions, inaccuracies, and baseless claims that surely imply it wasn't inspired by an omniscient being, etc.
Either Jesus was for real or He was a liar...and the BIGGEST con-artist of all time as He would have conned and is still conning people LONG after His death.

I wouldn't call your savior a con artist. If anything, I'd call him a guy who was too liberal for his time! But I will call his story an exhaggeration built up through the ages. I would also say religion is conning people that aren't getting anything out of it (ie catholics who go just to go and do traditions for no reason and get nothing out of it). You seem like a very spiritual person so I can't argue the "proof" concept since it requires physical proof.

Someone said earlier or in another thread 'The argument for religion is inherently infallible, since the basis of the argument allows the impossible'.

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archaeologists keep finding more and more proof that He did exist as well as proof that events in the Bible---even the ones many hope to be "fairy tales" actually did happen

Ugh...I have a lot of problems with this sentence. I'm going to put my foot down hard and just say no. They don't. Creationists work around them to make them sound plausable. But in the end they are fairy tales.

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Hope to see you "on the other side" but if not, the good news is you will get to live in your universe and see what a universe is really like that doesn't need a Creator.  

Do you see what you just said? You damn people. That's very cruel when people don't have the same beliefs as you. What if someone came up to you and told you "You'd better believe what I believe or else you'll be reincarnated as a rock!"?
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 27, 2009, 03:40:59 pm
Either Jesus was for real

Quite debatable.

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or He was a liar...and the BIGGEST con-artist of all time as He would have conned and is still conning people LONG after His death.

Reasonable conclusion.  There were dozens upon dozens of people in that time period claiming to be the messiah.  There's hardly anything about the identity of this Jesus Christ that is original (almost every characteristic about him is based upon other deities of the time period).  Interestingly enough, there were dozens upon dozens of cults at the time, each with a different take on the story.  Some had Jesus as the messiah, some had John the Baptist, others had Mary, others had Peter, etc. etc.  It's pretty likely they 'evolved' and combined, so to speak, just as almost every other form of mythology in history.

There's not much outside evidence of this happening to Christianity, because the church destroyed or rewrote anything it could find to gain/maintain power, but there is tons of evidence of this happening to other religions.  There is also evidence of this in the Bible itself.  Paul mentions in one of his letters that he is writing to refute all of the other versions of Christianity that exist.  John explicitly states he's not the messiah.  Why?  As a slap in the face to the Johannine cults.  Other evidence is the various apocryphal "gospels" like Judas and Thomas, all giving alternate takes on things.

Let's have some more fun.  Let's look at the names of some main characters in the Bible:

Imagine you were making this story up, right from scratch, and you wanted to name your messiah - the living embodiment of God's determination to save humanity from Hell. What would you name him? "God will save you", perhaps? How convenient!  That's pretty much "Jesus" in Aramaic. Wow. Hey, what about the others? Like the guy who represents the Jewish betrayal of Jesus? "Judas", perhaps? The character who is the foundation on which the religion is built after Jesus ascends, "rock", perhaps, which translates to "Peter"? And so on. That's about as blatant as an English writer naming a thief "Robin."

And why would they do this?  To give more dominance to the cult that had Jesus as the messiah.

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Even after all this time, there is NO evidence that  has been found that proves He was anything contrary to what He said He was

Yet another person proposing people should try to prove a negative claim.  It doesn't work that way.  The burden of proof lies on those who make the positive claim, especially when that positive claim is such a stretch from reality.

The fact of the matter is this:  There is an incredibly tiny amount of extant evidence for Jesus Christ's existence (the gospels/writings of Paul are not evidence).  There is a passing mention in Tacitus which is known to have plenty of factual inaccuracies, a very controversial mention in Josephus which scholars believe was edited, and a few other random, non-detailed mentions amongst a couple authors.  Regardless, all of these mentions were written decades after the supposed death of Jesus Christ.  There is literally not a single first hand account of his existence.

There is an even smaller amount of extant evidence that this man was crucified.  The story as it's written in the Gospels makes zero sense at all (never mind that the Gospels contradict themselves on even the largest of details) and there isn't a single Roman document making note of such a crucifixion.  Crucifixion was a rare punishment reserved for slaves and rebels; Jesus, as he's described, was neither.  And again, we find there is not a single first hand account of the crucifixion.  The gospels aren't even a first hand account; the earliest, Mark, was written roughly 30 to 35 years after.  The rest were written well after that.

There is absolutely zero evidence of a resurrection.  Why?  Because people don't rise from the dead.  Simple.

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in fact, archaeologists keep finding more and more proof that He did exist as well as proof that events in the Bible---even the ones many hope to be "fairy tales" actually did happen.

Show some of this proof, please.  If you're saying they've found historical locations that are mentioned in the Bible, okay?  That's not a big deal; many of those places exist to this day.  If you're saying they found Noah's Ark, no they have not.  If you're saying they found evidence of a resurrection, no they didn't.

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To say God created a universe that doesn't need a creator, and created life that doesn't appear to need a creator----really?  WOW--- Take a look around at your universe

I have.  And there is a natural explanation for every occurrence we've observed.  That implies either there was no creator, or the creator made everything and put a nice spin on it that makes it seem like it needs no creator.

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the reason it's in such a MESS right now is BECAUSE God is being removed from everything.

What is in a mess?  There have been horrible economic downturns throughout all of history.  There have been much, much worse wars throughout history.  None of this is abnormal, in fact it's much better than it has been throughout history.  There is arguably a minimal amount of suffering today when compared to the past.  People are living longer on average, people are more healthy on average, we are capable of fixing so many more medical issues, etc. etc.  There is no mess; this is the cycle of mankind and it's most certainly improved over the centuries.

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You should HOPE that the Bible is 110% true because if it turns out that it is, someday you will have your wish.  God and all those who believe in Him WILL be removed from this earth.  Hope to see you "on the other side" but if not, the good news is you will get to live in your universe and see what a universe is really like that doesn't need a Creator.

Again, I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that punishes infinitely for a finite amount of sin.  I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that punishes someone infinitely even if they've led a moral, charitable life, but simply failed to get on their knees.  I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that is as conceited and jealous as this.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: walksalone11 on December 28, 2009, 09:15:10 am
You don't spend eternity with Creator anyway, you spend it with you Ancestors, duhhhh!

***silly christians***
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: marcar1008 on December 28, 2009, 10:33:30 am
I do beleive God exists. He is my creator. I am a Christian and I am NOT silly. God sent his only begotten son, so that everyone who beleives in him is saved and will have an eternal life. John 3:16   :notworthy: Jesus is our ancestor too  ;D son of Mary. - God and Jesus are the same person - I beleive in Trinity ! :notworthy:  :female:
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: walksalone11 on December 28, 2009, 03:25:21 pm
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/walksalone11/smileys/snackin.gif)
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: youngmarketer21 on December 28, 2009, 03:28:23 pm
u better remember to cash out on your offers before 180 days or they are reset back to zero!!
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: marcar1008 on December 28, 2009, 03:36:23 pm
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/walksalone11/smileys/snackin.gif)

Hope your popcorn is not too salty.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: walksalone11 on December 28, 2009, 05:50:27 pm
(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/walksalone11/smileys/snackin.gif)

Hope your popcorn is not too salty.
don't do salt....that stuff 's bad for ya.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 28, 2009, 08:42:04 pm
Quote from: liljp617
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Imagine you were making this story up, right from scratch, and you wanted to name your messiah - the living embodiment of God's determination to save humanity from Hell. What would you name him? "God will save you", perhaps? How convenient!  That's pretty much "Jesus" in Aramaic. Wow. Hey, what about the others? Like the guy who represents the Jewish betrayal of Jesus? "Judas", perhaps? The character who is the foundation on which the religion is built after Jesus ascends, "rock", perhaps, which translates to "Peter"? And so on. That's about as blatant as an English writer naming a thief "Robin."
And why would they do this?  To give more dominance to the cult that had Jesus as the messiah.
?: There are many instances in the Bible when GOD changed people's names to distinguish who they had become.  Many cultures put great emphasis on a name's meaning before choosing a name for their child because many people do live up to their name.

The point is that there were many cults that eventually combined and evolved to form modern Christianity.  There's a reason these names match up in the cliche ways they do -- the authors who created the names had something to gain from using such names and portraying the characters in specific ways (Jesus as "God will save you," Judas as the "Jewish betrayal," Peter as "rock," etc.).  They match up in these simple ways to cut down or increase the influence of other cults of the time period.

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Again, I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that punishes infinitely for a finite amount of sin.  I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that punishes someone infinitely even if they've led a moral, charitable life, but simply failed to get on their knees.  I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that is as conceited and jealous as this.
"Punishment"?  Is "punishment" really the correct term?  Suppose someone lived in a house and on one side a neighbor (Roger) moves in.  On the other side lives Tom.  You really wish to be friends with both of them.  You are friendly to them, you invite them to ball games and the like.   Roger turns out to be a really great friend, you know you can depend on him through good times and bad times.  Tom on the other hand never has time to talk to you, is always in a rush to get away from you, is always too busy for you and one day he just snaps and tells you to get out of his life once and for all.  The years go by and Roger is still a great friend, Tom lives his life and keeps to himself and still never gives you the time of day.  Tom gets along ok with Roger--it's you he doesn't care for.  One day, as you are busy with your life, you get a call from Tom.  He's just found out he needs a blood transfusion to save his life ASAP and he tells you that you are the only person that can help save his life---he wants you to get to the hospital NOW!  Do you drop everything that's going on in your life to rush right over and help him?  Being a decent person...one probably would.   What if instead of that instance (the transfusion ordeal) Tom was found dead in his home.  What could you do to help him now?  Nothing...because he's dead.  God will only knock at the door of someone's heart until He is told to go away so many times.  God will let a person live their life as they choose and if they want nothing to do with Him, that's the choice they made.  Time goes by and if one day someone should happen to find themselves dying and they have the time to pray and ask God to save them---He surely will.  If time completely runs out and that person dies without ever calling on God, then they are "dead" to Him...there's nothing more God can do for them.  Regardless of the kind of life they lived, they made their choice.  They didn't want to spend any of their lifetime with God so why should God expect them to want to spend eternity with Him?  God isn't going to force Himself on anyone, to force someone who doesn't believe in Him to spend a eternity with Him...it seems like THAT would be PUNISHMENT!!

Yes, punishment is the perfect term.  Sending someone to burn and be tormented for eternity is the punishment detailed in Christian doctrine for someone who denies Jesus/God.  This is elementary information of Christian dogma.

The entire point was that I could potentially live a perfectly moral life (more moral than any Christian in the world), be charitable, be forgiving, be completely non-aggressive/non-violent, etc. etc. and I would still be subjected to eternal punishment, simply because I didn't bow down and say some prayers.  In other words, I could do every single thing Christians are supposed to do except hold blind faith, and I would still be sent to a lake of fire.  Why in the world would I want to spend eternity with a being that subjects its creations to such nonsense?  

(And I won't even get into the factor of omniscience and how the mentioned doctrine is even more malicious and plain disgusting)
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Isaac28 on December 29, 2009, 12:46:51 am
Ya,  we wont really know till we perish right?
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 29, 2009, 01:31:56 pm
I'd like to address your points, except within four sentences you directly contradicted yourself.  Never mind that what you're saying is directly contradicted by Christian doctrine.

And yet again, I have never made the factual claim that there is/are no god(s).

I enjoy the discussion and clearly others do as well.  If you don't, you can "believe what you want and move on."  I'll happily discuss it with people who wish to do so, because healthy debate is important to progression.  Refrain from assuming people want to ignore discussing a very important topic in our society just because you want to ignore it.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: InKane on December 29, 2009, 02:25:22 pm
Wow, I've never made a topic that had enough replies for a second page! Sweeeet.

Quote
The whole thing is you are human and he is God and you do what he says and if not then simply, GO To Hell.

Kickin' it Old Testament style, I see!
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: bucksmakingmama on December 29, 2009, 05:12:18 pm
Well, I guess I'll get in on this topic. I believe God exists. I also believe in Jesus, the Bible, and all that entails. I'm am not going to try to "prove" He exists. We all have our freedom of choice and everyone is entitled to their beliefs. So...that being said....I'm going to say that I also believe that all religions (monotheistic, polytheistic and atheist and any others) have some correct ideals and some incorrect ones. I don't believe that any religion has it completely correct, regardless of what they may claim. Humans are not perfect. In that, I believe that some choices that have been made in the growth of humanity itself and the religions it contains are also imperfect, therefore corrupting all religions.

I do however believe in a "just" and "understanding" God who would take this in account. The only Bible doctrine I have ever read in the Bible so far is that one must believe in Jesus and accept him in order to "be saved". I have never found anything that states that one must do any of the other things or "rites" that are required by "religion".
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: eSineM on December 29, 2009, 11:03:40 pm
Well, I guess I'll get in on this topic. I believe God exists. I also believe in Jesus, the Bible, and all that entails. I'm am not going to try to "prove" He exists. We all have our freedom of choice and everyone is entitled to their beliefs. So...that being said....I'm going to say that I also believe that all religions (monotheistic, polytheistic and atheist and any others) have some correct ideals and some incorrect ones. I don't believe that any religion has it completely correct, regardless of what they may claim. Humans are not perfect. In that, I believe that some choices that have been made in the growth of humanity itself and the religions it contains are also imperfect, therefore corrupting all religions.

I do however believe in a "just" and "understanding" God who would take this in account. The only Bible doctrine I have ever read in the Bible so far is that one must believe in Jesus and accept him in order to "be saved". I have never found anything that states that one must do any of the other things or "rites" that are required by "religion".

Just out of curious, which bible do you believe in? Why that one in specific?

so does that mean you can accept Jesus and believe in him, and then murder etc. is ok? :)
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: clcflash on December 30, 2009, 12:00:05 am
Lets see. God is God for monotheists. atheists sincerely believe there isn't a god. glad we have that settled... any questions?
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: bucksmakingmama on December 30, 2009, 04:46:20 am
Just out of curious, which bible do you believe in? Why that one in specific?

so does that mean you can accept Jesus and believe in him, and then murder etc. is ok? :)


I believe in the Holy Bible. Specifically the King James Version. I know there are different versions, and "men" decided on what was to be included, but I also believe that God isn't going to let the important stuff get lost in the confusion. I believe in that one because it is the Word of God.

And, yes, I have accepted Jesus and I do believe in him. I don't believe that murder is ok, etc., but, on the other hand, it is up to each one of us to make decisions on the actions we take and the way we live. In the end, it is God who will judge us and Jesus to defend us.


And again, if this isn't part of anyone's belief, that is ok. I'm just stating mine. No one actually knows for sure until we die. And I don't think that it will matter who's right and who's wrong. It will be just as it is when it is.  :dontknow:
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: liljp617 on December 30, 2009, 05:10:17 am
Lets see. God is God for monotheists. atheists sincerely believe there isn't a god. glad we have that settled... any questions?

If you're going to try to summarize such a vast conversation, at least bother to have basic facts correct:


1)  The vast majority of atheists do not take the stance that there is not and cannot be a god(s)
2)  The vast majority of atheists are agnostic atheists, individuals who recognize mankind's inability to prove/disprove the existence or nonexistence of deities but personally lack belief in them
3)  Lacking belief in something is absolutely not the same as believing that something doesn't exist/occur

Speak less, read more and you'll probably learn a few things.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: tcolon52 on February 04, 2010, 02:45:46 am
3-GOD is with in all of us. How we carry and represent HIM is a different story.  Not religion but just existing on earth. :icon_rr:.Life is grand live it to its fullest and allow everyone his/her opinion.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: angel379227 on February 04, 2010, 09:35:23 pm
There is a reason that you deny the existence of God and it has nothing to do with proof. I can show this to you. Examine what your initial reaction was to the proof of God's existence offered on this website.

You presented not a shred of evidence to support "proof". I think you need to consult a dictionary.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: lynnc35 on February 05, 2010, 02:14:45 am
I will take you up on that, since I have proof, just because you cannot see something with the human eye, and of course, you can not see God, God made humans. The things I seen, ha. I can't even look at your question without hoping for you to know the truth, without praying for you to lose your doubt, doubt is what is keeping you from seeing truth, only you do not know it. God will show Himself through Faith.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: tigerlilly01 on February 05, 2010, 05:04:18 am
God Does exist, when you are saved he lives in your heart..... I am happy to say I am a Christian.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: angel379227 on February 05, 2010, 09:29:19 am
I will take you up on that, since I have proof, just because you cannot see something with the human eye, and of course, you can not see God, God made humans. The things I seen, ha. I can't even look at your question without hoping for you to know the truth, without praying for you to lose your doubt, doubt is what is keeping you from seeing truth, only you do not know it. God will show Himself through Faith.

Wut. Dude get outta here. You have an extremely one-sided view on "truth" which I am not interested in. Every man has to seek his own truths. While you only look to one source for your faith, I look to many to determine what it means to me. Christianity may be your way, but please don't be so vain as to profess it's the ONLY way. You are not so special as that.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Rastov on February 05, 2010, 10:28:21 pm
Well I do hope you speak to your children like you speak to any person who believes in God (assuming your kids believe, since they usually do) and I do hope you don't hold back and really lay it on them. I also hope when a Loved one dies you really tell them what happens and not make it all sweet like you will see them in Heaven one day. hahahahahaha that should screw them up :P
Why did you copy and paste this exact post in three different threads?
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: debraleesparks on February 05, 2010, 11:07:45 pm
 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???  I bet this guy believes right now !!!
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: teflonfanatic on February 06, 2010, 12:38:58 am
HE exists because everybody can't be wrong as we're celebrating his birthday today. HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Actually we're celebrating the festival of Saturnalia and the winter solstice, holidays hijacked by Christianity some years ago to gain more power over people.

FALSE CHRISTIANITY as a whole has used holidays(modern-day revelries) for popularity.

Easter is rooted in celtic worship and is connected with eostre or pagan queen of the heavens.  Want more proof?
How about the bunny symbol being a sign of fertility, it's the same symbol of hef's company, YOU KNOW WHO I'M TALKING ABOUT. Also there's a reason the birthday accounts in the bible are negative, for example if you research the origin of birthday's it began with gentile nations and not with god's people, also the song itself has connections to good luck chants to ward off evil spirits from the celebrant.

As for the trinity it completely contradicts scripture because the whole hebrew-aramaic scriptures(or old testament) is monotheistic, also the trinity is rooted in almost all gentile nations (egyptians, assyrians etc) so anyone thinking that the trinity is monotheistic is following himself.

No one can see god and live
Exodus 33:20

Jesus IS a created being
Proverbs 8:22, Colossians 1:15, 16, Revelation 3:14

Is Jesus or god the second Adam??!!! Don't forget that no one can see god and live :)
1Corinthians 15:45-49
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Rastov on February 06, 2010, 02:57:36 am
As for the trinity it completely contradicts scripture because the whole hebrew-aramaic scriptures(or old testament) is monotheistic,
No one can see god and live
Exodus 33:20

Jesus IS a created being
Proverbs 8:22, Colossians 1:15, 16, Revelation 3:14

Is Jesus or god the second Adam??!!! Don't forget that no one can see god and live :)
1Corinthians 15:45-49

I'll agree that the concept of the Trinity runs contrary to the Hebrew scriptures, but your reasoning is wrong. You can't see God in His full form and live. God appeared before several people. He appeared before Abraham on his way to Sodom, and he wrestled with Jacob. As I recall, he makes at least three appearances.

Quote from: teflonfanatic
also the trinity is rooted in almost all gentile nations (egyptians, assyrians etc) so anyone thinking that the trinity is monotheistic is following himself.
The concept of the Trinity being both three and one is not that difficult to grasp. Imagine pouring three different types of paint together. They mix up together to form a single color, despite being made up of three unique colors.
I have no idea what you mean when you say the concept is rooted in Egyptian or Assyrian culture. There is nothing even similar to a Trinity in either region's  religions.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: debraleesparks on February 06, 2010, 03:22:17 pm
 :wave: :thumbsup: :wave: :thumbsup: :wave: :thumbsup: :wave: :thumbsup: :wave: :thumbsup: :wave: :thumbsup: :wave: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: teflonfanatic on February 06, 2010, 03:26:19 pm
As for the trinity it completely contradicts scripture because the whole hebrew-aramaic scriptures(or old testament) is monotheistic,
No one can see god and live
Exodus 33:20

Jesus IS a created being
Proverbs 8:22, Colossians 1:15, 16, Revelation 3:14

Is Jesus or god the second Adam??!!! Don't forget that no one can see god and live :)
1Corinthians 15:45-49

I'll agree that the concept of the Trinity runs contrary to the Hebrew scriptures, but your reasoning is wrong. You can't see God in His full form and live. God appeared before several people. He appeared before Abraham on his way to Sodom, and he wrestled with Jacob. As I recall, he makes at least three appearances.

Quote from: teflonfanatic
also the trinity is rooted in almost all gentile nations (egyptians, assyrians etc) so anyone thinking that the trinity is monotheistic is following himself.
The concept of the Trinity being both three and one is not that difficult to grasp. Imagine pouring three different types of paint together. They mix up together to form a single color, despite being made up of three unique colors.
I have no idea what you mean when you say the concept is rooted in Egyptian or Assyrian culture. There is nothing even similar to a Trinity in either region's  religions.

Here's some pics of their sun worship trinity oh btw the india trinity is also called a triune god  :o
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm (http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm)

http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/no_11_isis_and_serapis.htm
 (http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/no_11_isis_and_serapis.htm)

I'm not trying to hurt peoples feelings or anything but it's a fact that the christian trinity is a 4th century invention that came from pagan origin. Either way the fact that trinitARIANS believe that Jesus is NOT created contradicts scripture because it says he's created and according to the trinity doctrine Jehovah(YHWH) and Jesus are both equally eternal, yet Jesus has a beginning.

Can you give me the scripture where it says God wrestled with Jacob please.

As for proof of God's existence follow the bible prophecies and look at the archaeology evidence.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: CHajenian on February 06, 2010, 08:23:26 pm
Re: The proof that God exists...  if one wants to know whether or not God exists, one should do a simple little prayer and ask Him.  Ask Him to show without a doubt that He exists.  :)  If one REALLY WANTS to know...that's really all one has to do. 

A few years ago I read a book called, "A Course in Miracles".  It isn't the Bible, but it speaks of God in a way that I have not heard before.  What it says is, "Nothing real can be threatened.  Nothing unreal exists.  Herein lies the peace of God."  I agree that knowledge is truth and to have a relationship with God gives us knowledge of the truth of His existence.  God is Real.

"A Course in Miracles" makes a fundamental distinction between the real and the unreal; between knowledge and perception.  God is love and knowledge is truth.  To have a relationship with God is to know the truth; something that cannot be clouded by perceptions. 

This book says, "Truth is unalterable, eternal and unambiguous.  It can be unrecognized, but it cannot be changed.  It applies to everything that God created, and only what He created is real.  It is beyond learning because it is beyond time and process.  It has no opposite; no beginning and no end.  It  merely is."  "The world of perception," A Course in Miracles says, "is a world of time, of change, of beginnings and endings.  It is based on interpretation, not on facts.  It is the world of birth and death, founded on the belief in scarcity, loss, separation and death.  It is learned rather than given, selective in its perceptual emphases, unstable in its functioning, and inaccurate in its interpretations."

The proof that God exists is found in the thought system of knowledge, rather than the thought system of perception.  In the realm of knowledge no thoughts exist apart from God, because God and His Creation share one Will.  The world of perception, however, is made by the belief in opposites and separate wills, in perpetual conflict with each other and with God.  What perception sees and hears appears to be real because it permits into awareness only what conforms to the wishes of the perceiver.  This leads to a world of illusions, a world which needs constant defense precisely because it is not real.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Falconer02 on February 07, 2010, 01:56:09 am
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I bet this guy believes right now !!!

I bet that guy is thinking what his next step should be in order to survive the fall. Woah I just murdered that joke.

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As for proof of God's existence follow the bible prophecies and look at the archaeology evidence

It's funny that when you research this, creationists act as if it's undeniable evidence but they either don't have anything to show or they won't accept any criticism on it nor will they let any non-creationist study the subject. It's the reason massive craploads like the "Creationist Museum" exists. A good example is the instance of Mormons believing they have ancient writings supporting their beliefs of how all these religious phenomena happened around Jackson, Mississippi. Nobody has ever seen these objects and therefore nobody can study them. Just like Joseph Smith and his tablets. I'm under the impression you've been watching too much Indiana Jones.

Oh and Teflon-- are you a jw? ex-jw?

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since I have proof, just because you cannot see something with the human eye, and of course, you can not see God, God made humans. The things I seen, ha. I can't even look at your question without hoping for you to know the truth, without praying for you to lose your doubt, doubt is what is keeping you from seeing truth, only you do not know it. God will show Himself through Faith.

I pray to Xenu that he gets those Thetans off of your corrupt soul and delusional mind, my brother.

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The proof that God exists is found in the thought system of knowledge, rather than the thought system of perception.  In the realm of knowledge no thoughts exist apart from God, because God and His Creation share one Will.  The world of perception, however, is made by the belief in opposites and separate wills, in perpetual conflict with each other and with God.  What perception sees and hears appears to be real because it permits into awareness only what conforms to the wishes of the perceiver.  This leads to a world of illusions, a world which needs constant defense precisely because it is not real.

Who's this author? Morpheus? I actually did some reading on this just now and the book kind of bugs me. On the website it says the apparent author had dreams about jesus talking to her. Then she wrote them down.

"Schucman claimed to have written the material, with the help of William Thetford, based on the dictation of an inner Voice, which voice Schucman identified as Jesus. In the last paragraph of this section, Schucman explains why the names of the collaborators do not appear on the cover"

Granted I haven't read it, but I'd have a lot of difficulties accepting truth from a book that's a mixture of delusions and edits to make sense of it.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: debraleesparks on February 07, 2010, 03:06:51 am
 :thumbsup:                        If you can't see the bright side of life, polish the dull side.
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: moonangel on February 07, 2010, 05:42:22 am
Around my part of the country we are Taught to Believe.. so  as anyone who teaches a stove is hot to a little child ; the stove is hot some times not always..? I was also taught to believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, :dontknow:
Title: Re: The proof that God exists...
Post by: Rastov on February 12, 2010, 04:18:57 am
Quote from: teflonfanatic
also the trinity is rooted in almost all gentile nations (egyptians, assyrians etc) so anyone thinking that the trinity is monotheistic is following himself.
The concept of the Trinity being both three and one is not that difficult to grasp. Imagine pouring three different types of paint together. They mix up together to form a single color, despite being made up of three unique colors.
I have no idea what you mean when you say the concept is rooted in Egyptian or Assyrian culture. There is nothing even similar to a Trinity in either region's  religions.

Here's some pics of their sun worship trinity oh btw the india trinity is also called a triune god  :o
http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm (http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm)
You're assuming because Hindu is older than Christianity that all doctrines therein predate Christianity as well.
The doctrine of their trinity(Vishnu, Krisna and Brahma) post dates Christianity. Krishna existed centuries before Christ, but he was not considered to be a supreme deity for a long time thereafter(9th century).
The exact reason for the adoption of the Trinity is not easy to pin down. Though I agree it is partly due to pagan influences, it also partly to do with the Gospels themselves.
Matthew turned Jesus into a God child, and there wasn't much going back from there. It was only a matter of time before Jesus became a god himself. John flatly stated Jesus was a god. Unitarianism is impossible with the current cannon.
But if you have a greater God and a lesser god, you no longer worship only one God. Now you worship two gods. Therefore, it became vital that Jesus be elevated to the status of co-equal with God. Only by Jesus being God in the flesh, could the Oneness be persevered.

Quote from: teflonfanatic [url=http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/no_11_isis_and_serapis.htm
http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/no_11_isis_and_serapis.htm
[/url]

I'm not trying to hurt peoples feelings or anything but it's a fact that the christian trinity is a 4th century invention that came from pagan origin.
It's not a 4th century invention. It's a 2nd century concept. Tertullian is the church father who first worked it out, and it became almost instantly the dominant belief within the church.

Quote from: teflonfanatic
Either way the fact that trinitARIANS believe that Jesus is NOT created contradicts scripture because it says he's created and according to the trinity doctrine Jehovah(YHWH) and Jesus are both equally eternal, yet Jesus has a beginning.
*Shrugs*
No idea what the Jehovah's witness believe. They're officially considered outside of the Christian faith by the Council of Churches, so they don't technically count as Christians. They're a Christian heresy.

Quote from: teflonfanatic
Can you give me the scripture where it says God wrestled with Jacob please.
Yep
Quote from: Genesis Chapter 32
24  And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25  And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26  And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27  And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28  And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29  And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30  And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.