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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: Kymberli0529 on February 02, 2010, 06:29:01 pm
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
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While I applaud you for your conviction, I have to say that growing up Catholic and then studying branches of Christianity does not mean you understand the religion. You're judging the faith by some of its misguided followers, when the message is one of piousness and love. Bear in mind that I find the beliefs of Christianity positively absurd, but I've seen the results that have come from genuine understanding of the words of Jesus Christ, and I gotta say he deserves better than to have some whelp like you goin around acting like you understand. Go study some more and put that fiery spirit of yours to good use, cause as it is now, your tirade is just as bad as I've seen from many a bible-thumper. Be better than that.
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I see much more judgment in your post than in Kymberli's. You're ASSuming a lot to assume she's not educated about the subject.
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You have said a few things here that caught my attention, I am not a all surprised......we should talk.
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When I was in school with cousin she would always say that if I don't think god is real I am going to hell and I said whatever and will never believe and she is still out there trying to get everyone she knows the believe in god well I am not saying god is not real I will never believe it till I see god.. I don't believe in heaven or hell.
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I see much more judgment in your post than in Kymberli's. You're ASSuming a lot to assume she's not educated about the subject.
Her education is irrelevant. We're talking about her understanding of the faith she's slandering, and in that aspect I know she is severely lacking. I've seen many spiritual infants with her same rage and misguided preconceptions. You don't have to be a wizard to see her perception of Christianity has been tainted by a Catholic upbringing and bible-thumping hypocrites.
And you don't have to slyly call me an *bleep* by using play-on-words. I'm not the one throwing dirt in people's eyes here.
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I see much more judgment in your post than in Kymberli's. You're ASSuming a lot to assume she's not educated about the subject.
Her education is irrelevant. We're talking about her understanding of the faith she's slandering, and in that aspect I know she is severely lacking. I've seen many spiritual infants with her same rage and misguided preconceptions. You don't have to be a wizard to see her perception of Christianity has been tainted by a Catholic upbringing and bible-thumping hypocrites.
And you don't have to slyly call me an *bleep* by using play-on-words. I'm not the one throwing dirt in people's eyes here.
Can you describe your understanding of Pope Innocence xiv? and the doctrine he is most notable for?....being the xtian scholar and all that you are, you kno?
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I'm not surprised that you would mock me, Walksalone, as people insecure in their spirituality are often and generally aggressive to anyone with a different viewpoint, but I respect your right as an American to freedom of speech. Mock on, brother, but try to keep your arguments relative to the topic at hand. Christianity ("xtian", really?) did not originate with the pope and they are less representatives of the-- ahem-- "xtian" faith as they are spiritual leaders. If you want to truly understand something, you have to first consider its source rather than just its results.
I actually think that Catholicism has done more to cripple our understanding of Christianity than any other "denomination" or offshoot of the religion, so you and I may have something in common yet.
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To each there own. Im actually proud of you for speaking your mind. There are alot of doubts in the bible, that is why it was man made. I too do not think someone will judge us as we die. Don't let the minds of others speaking on here tear your spirit down. This is human we do not all act the same, dress the same nor do we believe or think the same. I think people are afraid of a thinking mind. And furthermore your comments on Christianity and all other religion is to the point, if you do not believe in THEIR religion you are going to hell, I say to those there must be alot of hell's out there as believe system changes in terms of god everywhere. I too do not think people should judge others but the people who believe in some of these religions do. As my husband puts it, they should read their bible more and be at peace with themselves before they judge on others. My husband beliefs in god, though he does not go to church. As he again puts it, you do not need a big room to pray amongst others that turn around and are hypocritical about half the stuff they preach and pray about to be close and fell a certain degree of closeness with god. Yes I married a man who beliefs in god, yes he knows I do not believe in hes god and has since day one when we started dating, Does he have a problem with it NO. Actually he has more respect for me in this category for when a person brings up the topic he politely says this is not something my wife likes hearing those talk about. Bottom line is what you believe is yours whether there is a god or not. No one should bash this person or anyone else by saying she is going to hell. Nobody and I mean NOBODY not even my husband knows what will happen after we pass. As for most there are theories but not facts.
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I'm not surprised that you would mock me, Walksalone, as people insecure in their spirituality are often and generally aggressive to anyone with a different viewpoint, but I respect your right as an American to freedom of speech. Mock on, brother, but try to keep your arguments relative to the topic at hand. Christianity ("xtian", really?) did not originate with the pope and they are less representatives of the-- ahem-- "xtian" faith as they are spiritual leaders. If you want to truly understand something, you have to first consider its source rather than just its results.
I actually think that Catholicism has done more to cripple our understanding of Christianity than any other "denomination" or offshoot of the religion, so you and I may have something in common yet.
***shudders at the thought***
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Congrats, Kymberli, for having the courage to DO THE RESEARCH and pull yourself away from a life of delusion and non-thinking. I have also been where you've been, foremost not being raised a Christian but then point-blank choosing to give religion a try after a dramatic life event I encountered. I was a "true" Christian for 5 years before I finally decided to do some research on the matter, and was shocked when I discovered solid evidence against the existence of any sort of god. Shocked because I truly had bought into the delusion of god like the next guy, but now I had found clear evidence that it's all a sham.
Most people "need" to believe in fairytales because they're too scared of death and the fact that the only purpose life has is the purpose you make for yourself.
http://www.godisimaginary.com/ - may sound like a silly name, but it has killer proofs that blow the deity daddy right out of the sky.
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I was a "true" Christian for 5 years before I finally decided to do some research on the matter, and was shocked when I discovered solid evidence against the existence of any sort of god. Shocked because I truly had bought into the delusion of god like the next guy, but now I had found clear evidence that it's all a sham.
This is just as ludicrous as claiming there's solid evidence to support the existence of God. You girls are so full of self-righteousness-- it's quite am using, really. You've succeeded in becoming everything you supposedly detest.
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The ONLY true way to KNOW that there is a "GOD" is to have experienced death and have sat next to said being! Which I think would actually be IMPOSSIBLE unless you are believing in other forms of religion which as a christian you are not supposed to do! I am not saying there is a heaven or a HELL but I am reserving my oppinion for greater judgment! If you ARE truly a christian and from what I have read so far most who agree to disagree are! the bible says not to judge so ALL of you can be hypocritical if you want but know in your heart and mind if you judge You WILL BE DELT WITH ACCORDINGLY!
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I completely agree with you, I'm an atheist, and I can't stand all the religious bullshit there is on these boards. I don't go around screamin about bein an atheist, so why should they be bombarding the boards with their god bullshit?
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Hey, aren't we all here to make money and be happy?????? Religion is a tough subject, it seems to bring out the best and the worst in people, but it shouldn't divide you into groups. I'm not religious myself, but if you are nice to me, it really doesn't matter if you are religious or not. I think Knowing yourself is the most important thing..... :wave:
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This is just as ludicrous as claiming there's solid evidence to support the existence of God. You girls are so full of self-righteousness-- it's quite am using, really. You've succeeded in becoming everything you supposedly detest.
There IS solid evidence against the existence of the Christian god (including common sense). But most Xtians don't ever bother to question what they're told, and therein lies the problem.
It is quite quick of you to label me as self-righteous, when I am not. You are reading my posts in a tone that is far worse than what I am writing it in, I guess. I am merely stating my side using proper grammar and my intelligence -- that shouldn't make me "self-righteous". If anything, I'd think you'd be surprised to know that I pretty much leave religious people alone in "real life". Quite the opposite of self-righteous or "being everything I detest", don't you think?
Writing one blurb on a forum about religion is not worthy of your false labels, angel.
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You poor soul. :angel11:
FYI: There are no "souls". Everything that is "you" is just chemicals in your brain. Look it up.
If anything, I feel bad for the people who waste their whole lives submitting their time, energy, money!, and personal values to a lie.
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That's actually the way I think. People just waste their time in church... whenever people ask me what I believe in. im just like. Science.
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What exactly happened to make you change your mind??? Is this an emotional or educational decision??? No matter what religion I am, I'm very strong to point out that we are all responsible for our own destinies.... :thumbsup:
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There IS solid evidence against the existence of the Christian god (including common sense). But most Xtians don't ever bother to question what they're told, and therein lies the problem.
It is quite quick of you to label me as self-righteous, when I am not. You are reading my posts in a tone that is far worse than what I am writing it in, I guess. I am merely stating my side using proper grammar and my intelligence -- that shouldn't make me "self-righteous". If anything, I'd think you'd be surprised to know that I pretty much leave religious people alone in "real life". Quite the opposite of self-righteous or "being everything I detest", don't you think?
Writing one blurb on a forum about religion is not worthy of your false labels, angel.
I appre4ciate this respectful response. I shouldn't have labeled you as self-righteous without even knowing you. It's just that I get easily offended when folks put down other faiths. I do not personally ascribe to any religion, but I've seen the results of true faith and so I show the utmost respect for people's belief systems.
When I see folks refer to other faiths as a "scam" of "fairytales", it shows a lack of consideration and sets me off, but when I confront someone who claims they have "proof" either way that God exists or does not, then I really can't take anything they say seriously. C'mon now, Queen, you know that if such proof existed this matter would not be in contention. Please tell me you have another source other than that godisimaginary.com link, cause I perused that and it's just as one-sided and idiotic as any Christian site I've visited proclaiming they have definitive proof that the lawd does indeed exist.
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I don't know how this was a question, but I will reply anyway, ummm, don't know what this is going to do for you. Well I know what you are throwing away, the precious gift Jesus Christ gives to you, but that is your choice, not a good one, but still your choice. sin can not be taken away any other way, and you can't take it to God, since you don't believe in Him in the first place, but then again, How do you believe in yourself, since God created you, and you don't believe in Him, weird huh, guess that one doesn't make much sense.
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Kymberli0529 > have you ever read about some other relegions? try to understand them? if you don't beleive in one relegion doesn't mean that God is not exist, and if you had the chance to meet someone is really relegious he would never say that the other one is going to hell because he doesn't beleive this is number one rule in any relegion don't judge others Only God judge because only God knows what is really in your heart, in my opinion if you really want to find out you can by reading about other relegions and consult your heart for what you reading and if you really wanna find GOD , God will guide you to find him and good luck
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Kymberli0529 > have you ever read about some other relegions? try to understand them? if you don't beleive in one relegion doesn't mean that God is not exist, and if you had the chance to meet someone is really relegious he would never say that the other one is going to hell because he doesn't beleive this is number one rule in any relegion don't judge others Only God judge because only God knows what is really in your heart, in my opinion if you really want to find out you can by reading about other relegions and consult your heart for what you reading and if you really wanna find GOD , God will guide you to find him and good luck
That was a head-scratcher for sure right there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're trying to tell someone that doesn't believe in God that "God will guide" her. That's pretty rude if so. You wouldn't appreciate a Satanist telling you the Devil will guide you, I'm sure.
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what ever happened to good old fashioned existentialism?
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;D
I think she brings up a good point and certainly a good discussion. The problem with most organized religion regardless of what faith you practice is there isn't enough respect for our differences. Why do we try to force our beliefs on one another. History is certainly full of example after example of Christianity being forced on others. While some may say this was a necessary thing. I would ask why? I feel that as a Christian I should live my life in a way were we can respect our differences and still get along without strife or bickering. Listen if we can't get along here than where else are we going to?
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People who say the bible is man made are foolish and haven't really read it to well and or are liars. There are thigns so divine that some of the most brilliant people on the earth cannot understand all of its mysteries but we who have known God by spirit and truth know his word and we hear his voice. The bible calls you a fool ma'am as the proverb says the fool has said in his heart there is no God watch John Hagee hes not the slightest bit confused about Christ and he has lived through the times where Christ has been perverted in this country and has gone away from the traditional Godly family and has stayed true. look him up on youtube. Any questions about anything you can look up www.answersingenesis.com and www.wayofthemaster.com At least have an intelligent conversation there are so many things such as Giant bones found proving Genesis 6 and the fact that EVERY archaeological finding has lined up with biblical descriptions of nations and regions and times. and individuals. Also the 2500 prophecies and of which more than 200 are fulfilled doctors who told people years before pariscopes that they needed to wash their hands in running water in fact this was in Exodus thousands of years before modern science. Also in Leviticus 17 it states the life of the flesh is in the blood which would have prevented George Washington probably from dying (though he's in heaven now much better and it was just his time to go) but that the bloodletting they used to do would have not gone on if people believed the doctors that is because the life of our flesh is in our blood and once you remove it you remove the life of our flesh.
See true science. Be intelligiently designed don't evolve with hitler see this. This guy came to our church and he knows what he is talking about and his evidence lines up unlike evolutionists who have a LOT of speculations. They found DINOSAURS in the SAME TIME as HUMAN BEINGS! DISPROVING GREATLY the theory of EVILUTION!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnSTaw8ZvzM
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See true science. Be intelligiently designed don't evolve with hitler see this. This guy came to our church and he knows what he is talking about and his evidence lines up unlike evolutionists who have a LOT of speculations. They found DINOSAURS in the SAME TIME as HUMAN BEINGS! DISPROVING GREATLY the theory of EVILUTION!
Wow. You must be joking. :angry7:
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I see much more judgment in your post than in Kymberli's. You're ASSuming a lot to assume she's not educated about the subject.
Her education is irrelevant. We're talking about her understanding of the faith she's slandering, and in that aspect I know she is severely lacking. I've seen many spiritual infants with her same rage and misguided preconceptions. You don't have to be a wizard to see her perception of Christianity has been tainted by a Catholic upbringing and bible-thumping hypocrites.
And you don't have to slyly call me an *bleep* by using play-on-words. I'm not the one throwing dirt in people's eyes here.
Funny how you judge me when you know nothing about me aside from one post I've made. I said I was raised Catholic, didn't say anything else about my religious background. My Grandparents are strict Southern Baptists and most of the rest of my family are Lutherans. My education or lack there of according to you have nothing to do with my lack of 'faith' in jesus/god/jehovah whomever, and it has even less to do with the people who practice said religions, my lack of faith is due to the bible and not being a sheep...following some book and the idea of a man dying for my sins. I gues I can say I will believe it when I see it and if that sends me to hell...so be it.
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Sounds all the same to me. When you doubt the Devil Just runs with it. :thumbsup: Seems funny that a retard and a genius can have the same thoughts when they say why they don't believe in God.
I know for a fact there is God and have no reason to believe. Yep I know, Good For Me :thumbsup: Look through my eyes and you would know too. But if you never fully believe and can turn that easily from God and then talk Blasphemy well...
People often ask if there is a God then why do bad things happen? Well maybe because there are bad people in a world with Good people and people have free will and choose to be mean and bad. It's almost like you want God to do everything for you. Sorry I like to have my own decisions.
FYI that's the blind trust in something that you 'feel' that I'm talking about. Seems silly to me, plus...I don't recall saying I want anyone, god or whoever, to do anything for me.
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I was a "true" Christian for 5 years before I finally decided to do some research on the matter, and was shocked when I discovered solid evidence against the existence of any sort of god. Shocked because I truly had bought into the delusion of god like the next guy, but now I had found clear evidence that it's all a sham.
This is just as ludicrous as claiming there's solid evidence to support the existence of God. You girls are so full of self-righteousness-- it's quite am using, really. You've succeeded in becoming everything you supposedly detest.
Self-righteous? Funny, there are what....50 posts on here about the evidence that proves god exists and many more bulldogs for god that are willing to attack anyone who says anything bad against their god yet you rarely if ever see any posts such as mine. Seems to me, you who are judging me and trying to tell me I'm wrong, are the self-righteous person here.
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I completely agree with you, I'm an atheist, and I can't stand all the religious bullshit there is on these boards. I don't go around screamin about bein an atheist, so why should they be bombarding the boards with their god bullshit?
You poor soul. :angel11:
Again, exactly what I'm talking about but I think it was you who said it.....to each their own.
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I don't know how this was a question, but I will reply anyway, ummm, don't know what this is going to do for you. Well I know what you are throwing away, the precious gift Jesus Christ gives to you, but that is your choice, not a good one, but still your choice. sin can not be taken away any other way, and you can't take it to God, since you don't believe in Him in the first place, but then again, How do you believe in yourself, since God created you, and you don't believe in Him, weird huh, guess that one doesn't make much sense.
Most obviously, if I do not believe in god, I don't believe 'he' created anything. Weird, huh?
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although i grew up going to church, it didn't make me automatically believe in god. i had many questions but it felt like if i asked someone a question about god, they would say i'm going to hell and i shouldn't question him. i feel that the teachings are of what any person would want in life like not to judge, treat others like you want to be treated, etc...
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Kymberli0529 > have you ever read about some other relegions? try to understand them? if you don't beleive in one relegion doesn't mean that God is not exist, and if you had the chance to meet someone is really relegious he would never say that the other one is going to hell because he doesn't beleive this is number one rule in any relegion don't judge others Only God judge because only God knows what is really in your heart, in my opinion if you really want to find out you can by reading about other relegions and consult your heart for what you reading and if you really wanna find GOD , God will guide you to find him and good luck
A. You obviously didn't read my original post...I have studied numerous other religions and faiths. I never said god doesn't exist simply that I don't belive. I don't disrespect anyone or their beliefs, as I said in my original post...everyone, in my mind, is equal.
B. It may be the rule to judge not, but it's very rarely followed.
C. Also, don't recall saying I want to find 'him' but thanks.
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People who say the bible is man made are foolish and haven't really read it to well and or are liars. There are thigns so divine that some of the most brilliant people on the earth cannot understand all of its mysteries but we who have known God by spirit and truth know his word and we hear his voice. The bible calls you a fool ma'am as the proverb says the fool has said in his heart there is no God watch John Hagee hes not the slightest bit confused about Christ and he has lived through the times where Christ has been perverted in this country and has gone away from the traditional Godly family and has stayed true. look him up on youtube. Any questions about anything you can look up www.answersingenesis.com and www.wayofthemaster.com At least have an intelligent conversation there are so many things such as Giant bones found proving Genesis 6 and the fact that EVERY archaeological finding has lined up with biblical descriptions of nations and regions and times. and individuals. Also the 2500 prophecies and of which more than 200 are fulfilled doctors who told people years before pariscopes that they needed to wash their hands in running water in fact this was in Exodus thousands of years before modern science. Also in Leviticus 17 it states the life of the flesh is in the blood which would have prevented George Washington probably from dying (though he's in heaven now much better and it was just his time to go) but that the bloodletting they used to do would have not gone on if people believed the doctors that is because the life of our flesh is in our blood and once you remove it you remove the life of our flesh.
See true science. Be intelligiently designed don't evolve with hitler see this. This guy came to our church and he knows what he is talking about and his evidence lines up unlike evolutionists who have a LOT of speculations. They found DINOSAURS in the SAME TIME as HUMAN BEINGS! DISPROVING GREATLY the theory of EVILUTION!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnSTaw8ZvzM
Thanks for the laugh.
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Honestly, I'm just so over all the religious posts and debates on this forum. It's like some people are using it as their personal soap-box for religion/anti-religion, etc. and I'm tired of signing on each day to see twelve more posts about god. I mean really? Good for you that you believe in something that you feel strongely about but are twenty new posts by twenty new people entirely nec.? Most of the time, which is what really bugs me, is that the posts aren't about bringing people closer to your faith it's about trying to spark some debate. Believe me, I'm all for debates but it seems like religion is too heated a topic, I just wish people could keep god to appropriate topics (gonna get backlash over that 'cause I know some of yall think god is appropriate for everything) but a topic/debate about the presidential election or the race of your significant other really shouldn't turn into a battleground for religion. I understand this is a freedom of speech type of place and everyone is entitled to their own opinions so I just posted mine. End of story for me.
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Kymberlie deserves a medal! I bow before you, maddam.
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I can see you chose not to be better than that. Funny that you denounce others for shoving their beliefs in people's faces, yet here you're doing the same thing in defense of your own beliefs. If you really feel people should just live and let live then you wouldn't have made this topic. This is a public forum and if you're displeased with what's being discussed you should just consider moving along to other topics rather than trying to throw dirt in people's eyes. Again, you're acting no better than the people you condemn.
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http://www.godisimaginary.com/ - may sound like a silly name, but it has killer proofs that blow the deity daddy right out of the sky.
This is a silly website that shouldn't be taken seriously at all because its arguments are actually more like "yo mama" jokes than a legitimate (scholarly) argument.
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Any questions about anything you can look up www.answersingenesis.com and www.wayofthemaster.com
These sites are just as bad as queenofnine's godsimaginary link or other polemical websites, i.e. infidels or religioustolerance. They share the same fallible assumptions as their adversaries, which allows them to achieve their goal to attack them.
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Wow, I am so glad that my Spirituality doesn't threaten me or cause mental abuse in any form..........
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I have seen things like Jesus and heaven and Angels and the future and known about things but always kept my mouth shut until my visions or Hallucinations and Voices got scary. No one ever Knew. Now they think I am Schizophrenic. I guess that is what they would say to someone that sees and hears things.
You know 2000 years ago you'd probably be looked at as a prophet infront of people. But now in this age of information, I'd put my money on schizophrenia for obvious reasons. Do yourself a favor and come to terms with it-- don't go around saying you're hearing things in your head. That's basic for "I'm psychotic. Avoid me." If you hear gods voice, good for you. Just don't tot it around or people will use it against you. And if he tells you to kill people, seek help....and for the love of humanity do not watch the movie Frailty!
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GrandMother use to tell me often, "Don't give your medicine away, lest it lose it's power....."
I have always found this very good advice......
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I honestly believe that angel is the only sensible one among you lot. I can't stand it when religious people try to condemn you for not believing in their faith, but it also upsets me when Atheists decide that it's suddenly their responsibility to put down the faiths of others.
http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html
I found that article to be a very interesting read, even if Cracked.com might not be the most credible source in the world.
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Hmm, well I really don't know what sugar-coated word I could use that could be seen as more considerate. I consider myself lucky for being able to get out of the Christian lifestyle, as most people will not be able to. They are too far-gone in their brainwashing and so desperately need more comfortable answers when it comes to death, purpose, etc. My husband was raised strictly Mormon and was able to get out of that on his own; it all comes down to the courage to THINK for yourself and question/analyze everything.
As for having "proof" that god does not exist, no, you can not 100% prove that, but it is akin to my saying that there is an invisible three-headed purple dragon in my garage. You cannot prove that there isn't! That may sound silly, but it's true. As far as I'm concerned, the possibility for god is virtually non-existent so it's understandable why one would just round that figure down to zero. If the Christian god actually did exist, I would want nothing to do with him based on the Bible.
The scientific explanations for the universe are abundant. But Christians will always have their ridiculous excuses as to why the evidence isn't good enough. It's all from the devil, they'll say, or you just got to have "faith" and leave it at that.
No one will change on this matter unless they personally have the desire to. That is to say it has to be in the fundamental nature/personality of a religious person to value deep contemplation and have the courage to admit that everything they know may be wrong.
As for the http://www.godisimaginary.com/ link, I'm skeptical as to if visitors did anything more than skim it. Even if it's not written by Richard Dawkins, it brings up some very good points, even if you don't like it's style. The only reason I suggested it is because it presents its info in a much easier style than other sources. I would suggest that if that is not good enough, talk with your intelligent atheist friends in person and read actual books by Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris on the subject (try the library if you don't want to pay for 'em). http://exchristian.net/ is another good source.
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As for having "proof" that god does not exist, no, you can not 100% prove that, but it is akin to my saying that there is an invisible three-headed purple dragon in my garage. You cannot prove that there isn't! That may sound silly, but it's true.
No, no it's not. You can't give me an analogy accurate enough, I'm afraid. You claiming there's a purple dragon in your garage can very easily be disproved if someone were to simply look in there. Your "proof" that God does not exists is based entirely on supposition. You speak of others being brainwashed, but really, you're the one sounding desperate to grasp at any straw that will keep your imagery alive. Purple dragon? No. Just admit you were wrong.
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Guess I threw in too many adjectives when I described the dragon, because you skipped over the key word "invisible", which makes your reply to what I said lose any sting you were trying to impose.
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P.S. The whole dragon thing actually comes from Carl Sagan, not me. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
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Your "proof" that God does not exists is based entirely on supposition. You speak of others being brainwashed, but really, you're the one sounding desperate to grasp at any straw that will keep your imagery alive. Purple dragon? No. Just admit you were wrong.
Eh, don't you know this is exactly what the skeptics say about the Christians? So frustrating.
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I can see you chose not to be better than that. Funny that you denounce others for shoving their beliefs in people's faces, yet here you're doing the same thing in defense of your own beliefs. If you really feel people should just live and let live then you wouldn't have made this topic. This is a public forum and if you're displeased with what's being discussed you should just consider moving along to other topics rather than trying to throw dirt in people's eyes. Again, you're acting no better than the people you condemn.
Exactly how am I shoving anything in anyone's face? I'd really like you to point out where I have said anything against anyone else and their faith.
Also, you seem a bit hypocritical....You say that if I'm displeased I should just move on...why haven't you moved on from this topic? You're so displeased with what I have to say you feel the need to come on and tell me how wrong. Again, throw dirt in people's eyes? I have never nor would I ever tell anyone what to believe or that what they believe is wrong...I was merely stating my beliefs as numerous other people here have done, perhaps you should go back and read my original post.
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Denying the existence of God is not unbelief but an exercise in self-deception. You may know things, but you cannot account for anything you know. Arguing against God's existence would be on par with arguing against the existence of air, breathing it all the while. You use the universal, immaterial, unchanging laws of logic, mathematics, science, and absolute morality in order to come to rational decisions, but you cannot account for them. These laws are not the only way God has revealed himself to you, but they are sufficient to show the irrationality of your thinking, and expose your guilt for denying Him.
There is a reason that you deny the existence of God and it has nothing to do with proof. I can show this to you. Examine what your initial reaction was to the proof of God's existence offered on this website. Did you think that you could continue to deny God because you are not a scientist, or philosopher but 'Surely somewhere, sometime, a philosopher or scientist will come up with an explanation for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws apart from God?' Did you try to come up with an alternate explanation on your own? OR Did you even consider that the proof was valid?
Hoping that an alternate explanation for universal, immaterial, unchanging laws can someday be found apart from God, is a blind leap of faith, or wishful thinking. Isn't it interesting that this is exactly what professed unbelievers accuse Christians of?
Please examine the real reason why you are running from God. It is my prayer that God will open your eyes and change your heart so that you may be saved from your sin, embraced by His forgiving love, and come to know the peace which passes all understanding
FYI youre the reason I feel this way, well people like you.
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P.S. The whole dragon thing actually comes from Carl Sagan, not me. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
Honestly, I'm with you but I give up.
It was never my intention to 'throw dirt' in anyone's eyes nor did I ever tell anyone they were wrong for believing what they choose to believe. I haven't bashed anyone or any faith in anything I've said as is the case if you read what I originally posted about everyone being equal, it's ashame others don't feel that way as well but do feel the need to defend themselves and their faith by bashing me because I choose not to believe and have stated that I base that fact on being a past believer.
Christians all over the board get their numerous topics, why should I not get mine. I don't go into anyone elses topics and bash them, as I've been reminded I feel I should remind all those here that this is a public forum. I have held my tongue and stayed away from all the topics revolving around anything that has anything to do with religion but when A. People start bringing god into every single topic, not matter the original content, it gets rather annoying as the attention is taken away from anything that holds any semblance to what the poster wanted to talk about. B. When there are 50 topics relating to religion, isn't it fair that all us non-believers as we are called get our own post? Also, coming into this topic telling me how wrong I am, or that you're praying for me, or that I'm going to hell...Thanks for proving what I was saying.
I respect every and all religion or faith there is out there, I just wish those religious people here could respect others who don't share their belief...or actually read what I posted because I never said you were wrong, did I?... :wave:
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Yeah you got mine too. Thanks for making this thread-- having it at the top near "Proof that God exists" makes it look like a decent forum that's willing to see the other side and not a Christian-superiority get-together.
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Exactly how am I shoving anything in anyone's face? I'd really like you to point out where I have said anything against anyone else and their faith.
Also, you seem a bit hypocritical....You say that if I'm displeased I should just move on...why haven't you moved on from this topic? You're so displeased with what I have to say you feel the need to come on and tell me how wrong. Again, throw dirt in people's eyes? I have never nor would I ever tell anyone what to believe or that what they believe is wrong...I was merely stating my beliefs as numerous other people here have done, perhaps you should go back and read my original post.
You keep saying to read your original post, but that's the only thing I am referencing:
before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently.
My problem is this. You have an issue with people rubbing these religous issues in your face, telling you that what you believe is wrong, "blah, blah, blah", yet right there you do the exact same thing. If you had come in here, explaining your beliefs without belittling other people's beliefs, I would have applauded and encouraged you for your courage and dignity. Instead, you stepped on Christians in order to declare your beliefs, and that I can never condone.
And I've never bashed you for your beliefs, but you should consider presenting them in a less offensive manner if you expect others to do the same. I know you don't care what I think, and you think I'm an *bleep* looking to pick a fight, but I would feel I'd lessen myself if I called Christians down for bashing other faiths to validate their own and didn't do the same to you. Truth be told, I actually think you're remarkably intelligent, just misguided.
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Nice to see people have so much free time on their hands :angel11:
Didn't you say you're unemployed?
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To go to the beginning of this post - I was raised Catholic as well and remained a catholic until my sophomore year in college. Since then (about 9 years) I've removed myself further from religion because I truly believe that there is no way one form of religion can be right and I'm tired of all the fighting over who is right. IF there is a GOD then he or she wouldnt want people fighting to the death over their existence and if they did then I would be happy to not be a believer. However, there are thousands of off-shoots of religion - those who believe in god, those who have multiple gods, those who believe that Jesus is equal to god, those who believe in land spirits, on and on and so on - so who's right?
I'm happier atheist because I embrace everyone as equal and an open to everyone's beliefs, I just dont want religion crammed in my face. I do agree that education doesnt mean you're not religious or better able to argue against the reality of it, but I cannot stand those who are religious and do not research their beliefs. Blind faith is the worse disease - be open minded, question your beliefs and decide if there is enough in your life to justify your beliefs and religion before you call yourself a christian, muslim, jewish, wiccan what have you.
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Jesus gave us the only gift we need to be with Our Creator
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When I see folks refer to other faiths as a "scam" of "fairytales", it shows a lack of consideration and sets me off, but when I confront someone who claims they have "proof" either way that God exists or does not, then I really can't take anything they say seriously. C'mon now, Queen, you know that if such proof existed this matter would not be in contention. Please tell me you have another source other than that godisimaginary.com link, cause I perused that and it's just as one-sided and idiotic as any Christian site I've visited proclaiming they have definitive proof that the lawd does indeed exist.
The case that God doesn't exist is indeed where the default lies. You must prove God exists or have evidence, not the other way around.
Bertrand Russel argued that it is impossible for mankind to argue logically against a teapot orbiting around the earth at incredible speeds if the teapot is so small that it is undetectable even by the most powerful telescopes and machines we have on earth.
He also went on to say that although we cannot argue against such a tea pot it would be completely silly to argue that it exists, it is, after all, an incredibly small tea pot that we cannot see.
I for one, see no reason why I cannot claim that there is in fact, no omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being that is somehow listening to all the prayers of all the people in the world, and is capable of fathering human beings and making snakes talk.
No, no it's not. You can't give me an analogy accurate enough, I'm afraid. You claiming there's a purple dragon in your garage can very easily be disproved if someone were to simply look in there. Your "proof" that God does not exists is based entirely on supposition. You speak of others being brainwashed, but really, you're the one sounding desperate to grasp at any straw that will keep your imagery alive. Purple dragon? No. Just admit you were wrong.
Well, I just did it(or Betrand Russel). So why don't you just admit you're wrong?
While I applaud you for your conviction, I have to say that growing up Catholic and then studying branches of Christianity does not mean you understand the religion. You're judging the faith by some of its misguided followers, when the message is one of piousness and love. Bear in mind that I find the beliefs of Christianity positively absurd, but I've seen the results that have come from genuine understanding of the words of Jesus Christ, and I gotta say he deserves better than to have some whelp like you goin around acting like you understand. Go study some more and put that fiery spirit of yours to good use, cause as it is now, your tirade is just as bad as I've seen from many a bible-thumper. Be better than that.
You fail to understand that *whatever* Jesus believed and taught Christianity is defined by it's followers not by Christ.
See true science. Be intelligiently designed don't evolve with hitler see this.
Hitler was a Catholic. He didn't believe in evolution. He thought the Earth was 6,000 years old and he said "We must defend Christianity from the Jew". You shame Jesus by lying in His name.
Well I do hope you speak to your children like you speak to any person who believes in God (assuming your kids believe, since they usually do) and I do hope you don't hold back and really lay it on them. I also hope when a Loved one dies you really tell them what happens and not make it all sweet like you will see them in Heaven one day. hahahahahaha they should screw them up. :p
I wonder why you think children need to be condescended and lied to.
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I think anybody that doesn't believe better wake up,I think our time of reckoning is close at hand!
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I think anybody that doesn't believe better wake up,I think our time of reckoning is close at hand!
Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah...ALL THROUGHOUT MANKINDS HISTORY.
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I notice angel379227 suddenly got mighty quiet :)
Care to address my above post?
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I notice angel379227 suddenly got mighty quiet :)
Care to address my above post?
Truth be told, I didn't think your post worthy of a response. If you insist though.
When I see folks refer to other faiths as a "scam" of "fairytales", it shows a lack of consideration and sets me off, but when I confront someone who claims they have "proof" either way that God exists or does not, then I really can't take anything they say seriously. C'mon now, Queen, you know that if such proof existed this matter would not be in contention. Please tell me you have another source other than that godisimaginary.com link, cause I perused that and it's just as one-sided and idiotic as any Christian site I've visited proclaiming they have definitive proof that the lawd does indeed exist.
The case that God doesn't exist is indeed where the default lies. You must prove God exists or have evidence, not the other way around.
Bertrand Russel argued that it is impossible for mankind to argue logically against a teapot orbiting around the earth at incredible speeds if the teapot is so small that it is undetectable even by the most powerful telescopes and machines we have on earth.
I can only assume that you're either agreeing with me here, or didn't pay attention to a word I said, so I'll move on.
I for one, see no reason why I cannot claim that there is in fact, no omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being that is somehow listening to all the prayers of all the people in the world, and is capable of fathering human beings and making snakes talk.
Claim all you like, but never profess to have "proof" to back up your claims when it concerns the existence of a higher power. Again, I'm guessing you just skimmed my post.
No, no it's not. You can't give me an analogy accurate enough, I'm afraid. You claiming there's a purple dragon in your garage can very easily be disproved if someone were to simply look in there. Your "proof" that God does not exists is based entirely on supposition. You speak of others being brainwashed, but really, you're the one sounding desperate to grasp at any straw that will keep your imagery alive. Purple dragon? No. Just admit you were wrong.
Well, I just did it(or Betrand Russel). So why don't you just admit you're wrong?
This is what truly leads me to believe you're either a moron, rather than before when I just thought maybe you can't read. So, you just did....what? Provide an accurate analogy to support your belief that God does not exist? I'm afraid not. Neither you nor your buddy Betrand Russel can do that, any more so than all these bible-thumpers here can "prove" that he does exist. I know, I know, the burden of proof lies in their hands. So why claim to have your own? Doing so only shifts the burden, and your case is just as weak as theirs.
You fail to understand that *whatever* Jesus believed and taught Christianity is defined by it's followers not by Christ.
What dictionary are you reading that has such definitions? Last I checked, the word Christian literally translates to "Christ-like", so it seems logical to me that to be a Christian is defined by the teachings of Jesus Christ and not his followers.
I can sort of understand where you're coming from though. After all, I stopped shopping at Best Buys solely because some of its employees pissed me off. I think of it as the company's fault for hiring such incompetent individuals, but really, that analogy can't apply to Christianity, as Jesus is long dead and gone and so has no say over how his "employees" handle his "business". If he only knew what horrors and bigotry would be committed in his name I'm sure he would be mighty irate and all hell would be broken loose, pun-lulz.
My point is that how YOU define Christianity is just, like, your opinion. My opinion is that Christianity is defined by the words of Jesus Christ (not the Bible, necessarily, but that's another matter) Also, saying I "fail to understand" something is ironic, to say the least.
My apologies to the community. I really felt that last nonsensical post was a good way to just let this topic die, but the kiddie felt the need to keep prodding.
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Nice to see people have so much free time on their hands :angel11:
Didn't you say you're unemployed?
Im unemployed lots of free time too am i going to heaven or hell? Hell laid me off Im collecting unemployment seems like heaven Religion just confuses me.
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I wanna make babies with Kymberli0529 <3<3 :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
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Okay
The Bible is a book that was written about the trials and tribulations of mankind, what someone, or some people thought created mankind, and how they decided to deal with their problems, or an explaination for their problems occuring, It is essentially a instruction manual for life written back in the day. Keep in mind that all of these things that "supposedly happened" in the bible were written so that people had some kind of answer for something, a panic button for the unknown......
"Why are we all here?", "What do we do now?" were always the big questions. People needed to know why they were dying, why people were slaves, why Overlords and Rulers wanted to take over peaceful places, or why the less fortunate didn't thrive, or simply why there were so many things going wrong in this world. People at that time needed answers and hope, so they wrote a book about it.
As sure as you and I are able to type on this computer,(thanks Michael Dell, you rich *bleep*!!!) there would be no explaination for mankind without the research of evolution, sciences and nature (I'm not talking about Scientology, whatever the hell that is). We are here simply to be here, to do our thing on this planet, to evolve. DNA proves this. Genotyping proves this. History proves this, The Scientific Method proves this. We are simply Nature, and we struggle to survive and not repeat the same mistakes we did in the past.
If God was the supreme creator of life,then we should all be gods!Women, men and animals down to the smallest parasite, all have the power to bring life into this world, Only natural causes, and mankind have the choice to snuff out life, and some of it is in our control, and some of it is not. Learning from your mistakes is evolution Evolution is not absolute, it does not follow a certain path. Its predictable, yet spontaneous by nature, and it is constantly moving in this world It is not ruled by one single being or principle to be followed. No one being "owns" the creation or destruction of our world, it was contributed by all living creatures on this planet. That is why we live, that is why we die. In nature, Hurricanes, plagues, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, volcanoes, sinkholes, tornadoes mudslides, all of which kill 1000's of people, every year. All natural causes. I believe its just nature's very own special "earth" crowd control, a "shaking off of fleas" so to speak, nothing we can do about it, but we evolve to handle the next situation. And that, my friend, is why we are still here, and there are MANY books about evolution written and agreed upon about that!
Oh, and I am an Atheist.......
This IS Necessary!.....This IS Necessary!......
LIFE: feeds on Life, feeds on Life, feeds on Life, feeds on Life.
Maynard James Keenan-TOOL
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
I love you.
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one way or another we will all have an answer the moment after death....we will know exactly how we should have lived, loved and laughed....If I was truly convicted that there was no designer to the universe and that my actions posed no consequence or reward after my life story played out....i suppose I would live my life quite selfishly.
Respect is a form of a "god". So in a way your deity is respect...your religion is respect for man. If their is truly no god or diety....why bother with trustworthy, love, respect, or any virtue man has apparently come up with. One could argue those virtues were developed to regulate civilization and simply learned. If you believe those virtues are innate....ha. They are taught. Those virtues were developed by man over millenia...guided by a belief in god(s).
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One could argue those virtues were developed to regulate civilization and simply learned. If you believe those virtues are innate....ha. They are taught. Those virtues were developed by man over millenia...guided by a belief in god(s).
That's pretty unfortunate, dell, if one has to believe in a magical being to be a decent person.
I don't think Christians have their stories straight about being "good" and "bad". Seems Christians are only good because god wants them to be, and if they happen to do something wrong like cheat on their spouse, they get a "get out of hell free" card simply for believing in a sky daddy.
It's as simple as don't F people over because that's not good for humanity's survival, and that's the only reason we're here, to survive.
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I personally believe that this whole planet is god,
and we are god. :thumbsup:
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well that's something you will have to deal with when the end comes, good luck with that
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I personally believe that this whole planet is god,
and we are god. :thumbsup:
Great answer, thank you for words of wisdom!!!!! :wave:
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God exists differently to everyonein the world.....
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:thumbsup: dislexics believe in,,, DOG
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::) Put everything together - write a book and close the subject. :bootyshake: :confused1:
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Lmao
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I am going to pray for you. I am not going to sit here and preach to you nor change your mind. I respect your feelings and I am just going to pray for you.
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God is a giant transformer that is made in china.
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wow nice, noone should disagree at her argument
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Ah....the never-ending debate, with no right or wrong answers that get you no further than where you started
Your statements are pathetic and unwise. And therefore now I've gotten people further than where they started because they know this about you. Stop posting the same thing to get your post count up, troll.
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"Thanks to God, I am still an atheist."
- Luis Bunuel
"An atheist is a man who has no invisible means of support."
- John Buchan
"What after all is a halo? It's only one more thing to keep clean."
- Christopher Fry
"To become a popular religion, it is only necessary for a superstition to enslave a philosophy."
- William Ralph Inge
"Superstition is the religion of feeble minds."
- Edmund Burke
"Every dicator uses religion as a prop to keep himself in power."
- Benazir Bhutto
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world . . . It is the opium of the people."
- Karl Marx
"Things have come to a pretty pass when religion is allowed to invade the spheres of private life."
- William Lamb
"There's no reason to bring religion into it. I think we ought to have as great a regard for religion as we can, so as to keep it out of as many things as possible."
- Sean O'Casey
"Our religion is made so as to wipe out vices; it covers them up, nourishes them, incites them."
- Michel de Montaigne
"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another."
- Jonathon Swift
8)
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I guess I could add to hicaniplays post--
"God and country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed."
Luis Buñuel
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Wow Kimberli Your statement has really set a cord with people. I have to say to you that I too am in transition in going through Religions. I am currently baptized a Catholic and am doubting my religion as I study further, but the truth is there has to be a GOD and his Son Jesus Christ because all the bibles I have read say so. Now as far as what religion you have to or chose or join or not to join, is a personal decision. Only make sure that you pray that God may help you find the truth, whatever it may be. I know how lost, angry and confused I always was before I accepted the fact that I do need Him in my life. For some reason things seem easier (not easy) now. I am far from perfect and this has nothing to do with judgment or your freedom to choose it has to do with your relationship with the one who gave you the possibility to live. You sound very at peace with your decision and I wish you all the best with that.
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Fusion Cash is God!!!!
:wave:
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I have to say to you that I too am in transition in going through Religions.
Kimberli is not going through a transition of religions; she is in the sweet escape FROM delusion...er, religion.
"the truth is there has to be a GOD and his Son Jesus Christ because all the bibles I have read say so."
Really say that to yourself a few times and I'll hope you realize that is NOT proof -- never was and never will be.
"Only make sure that you pray that God may help you find the truth, whatever it may be. I know how lost, angry and confused I always was before I accepted the fact that I do need Him in my life. For some reason things seem easier (not easy) now."
**Pray to yourself** that you uncover the REAL truth: either there is a god, or there isn't. Either I'm right as an atheist, or you are. We can't both win. As a Christian I was convinced I was right because I desperately wanted to be right; yes, it kind of sucks and is shocking at first to learn that there is no god(s), you get 70 years and that's it, and life is pretty much pointless. But you grow up and get over it and then the life that you make for yourself as an ex-Christian - one who is free from the brainwashing and lifestyle confinements and is based on actual thought and logic - is damn near "heavenly"!
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"That's fine and I am sure God don't believe in you either."
Ooh pretty colors! Pretty colors affect religious opinion?
Well, if he ever believed in me he used that for his reasoning in his sadism before forcing me into a wheelchair 8 years ago? And if he believes in anything he certainly doesn't believe in good grammar.
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Ooh pretty colors! Pretty colors affect religious opinion?
Ignore her. She trolls the forums-- especially these types of threads.
Well, if he ever believed in me he used that for his reasoning in his sadism before forcing me into a wheelchair 8 years ago? And if he believes in anything he certainly doesn't believe in good grammar.
But god is TESTING YOU! It only makes sense! Seriously though, I'm truly sorry to hear about that. But the fact that you haven't gone the route of my first sentence is very impressive to me and (I assume) all people without the blinders of religion on. Very impressive.
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I have to say to you that I too am in transition in going through Religions.
Kimberli is not going through a transition of religions; she is in the sweet escape FROM delusion...er, religion.
"the truth is there has to be a GOD and his Son Jesus Christ because all the bibles I have read say so."
Really say that to yourself a few times and I'll hope you realize that is NOT proof -- never was and never will be.
"Only make sure that you pray that God may help you find the truth, whatever it may be. I know how lost, angry and confused I always was before I accepted the fact that I do need Him in my life. For some reason things seem easier (not easy) now."
**Pray to yourself** that you uncover the REAL truth: either there is a god, or there isn't. Either I'm right as an atheist, or you are. We can't both win. As a Christian I was convinced I was right because I desperately wanted to be right; yes, it kind of sucks and is shocking at first to learn that there is no god(s), you get 70 years and that's it, and life is pretty much pointless. But you grow up and get over it and then the life that you make for yourself as an ex-Christian - one who is free from the brainwashing and lifestyle confinements and is based on actual thought and logic - is damn near "heavenly"!
I'm so sorry that you feel the way you do. You must be right all things on earth JUST HAPPENED. We owe nothing to no one and that's it. We are born then we die with no purpose in between. As far as the bible goes, it must be just some long fiction story that a bunch of random people dreamed about. Sorry to be SO WRONG
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Let us decypher your post-
I'm so sorry that you feel the way you do.
For being grounded in reality?
You must be right all things on earth JUST HAPPENED. We owe nothing to no one and that's it.
It is a possibility. Granted we weren't there to see it happen, but it makes more sense to us to believe it took billions of years rather than 7 days by a supreme being who likes to tantalize us with fruit. The criteria set is through studying the things around us today rather than look at little black books written by gullible men from thousands of years ago.
As far as the bible goes, it must be just some long fiction story that a bunch of random people dreamed about.
A talking snake. 1 man building a huge boat to save every animal on this planet. A man being swallowed by a huge fish and living in its stomach. A guy who is granted super-human strength through his hair. God letting the devil torturing a man just to prove his point to the devil. The jewish carpenter who had X-men abilities. The list can go on. If I were told these things and I knew nothing of the bible, I'd say without a doubt it is.
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Let us decypher your post-
I'm so sorry that you feel the way you do.
For being grounded in reality?
You must be right all things on earth JUST HAPPENED. We owe nothing to no one and that's it.
It is a possibility. Granted we weren't there to see it happen, but it makes more sense to us to believe it took billions of years rather than 7 days by a supreme being who likes to tantalize us with fruit. The criteria set is through studying the things around us today rather than look at little black books written by gullible men from thousands of years ago.
As far as the bible goes, it must be just some long fiction story that a bunch of random people dreamed about.
A talking snake. 1 man building a huge boat to save every animal on this planet. A man being swallowed by a huge fish and living in its stomach. A guy who is granted super-human strength through his hair. God letting the devil torturing a man just to prove his point to the devil. The jewish carpenter who had X-men abilities. The list can go on. If I were told these things and I knew nothing of the bible, I'd say without a doubt it is.
I wouldn't have gone this far because I do have respect for Christians and Bible believers but.... :thumbsup:
Know exactly what you're talkingabout.
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BTW Wasn't implying that you didn't have respect either :)
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I'm truly sorry to hear that. Cause I can't live without GOD. GOD Bless you sweetie and GOD loves you.
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I believe that there is a great power, though what he/she/it is called......
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HAHAHAHA you think I am trolling and a Troll, I am not even trying to Troll. I have no reason. I am just giving my opinions and discussing things like everyone else. I get sarcastic just like your punk *bleep*. I wonder if you are a man or a female. If you think I am a troll now HAHAHAHA wait till I do it on purpose Freak
Back under the bridge, troll!
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HAHAHAHA you think I am trolling and a Troll, I am not even trying to Troll. I have no reason. I am just giving my opinions and discussing things like everyone else. I get sarcastic just like your punk *bleep*. I wonder if you are a man or a female. If you think I am a troll now HAHAHAHA wait till I do it on purpose Freak
No you're not. You aren't discussing anything but things that don't make one ounce of sense and can be spotted as fallible by a 5 year old. Stop trollin' the forums.
EAT SHI! AND DIE - I AM TIRED OF YOU EFFIN PEOPLE
And yet you continue to post, troll.
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Your idiocy is truly astounding.
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your the idiot. :wave:
You make this too easy. Besides you already claimed to put me on ignore once, lulz.
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I wouldn't have gone this far because I do have respect for Christians and Bible believers but....
Know exactly what you're talkingabout.
Perhaps I was being a bit disrespectful...for that I apologize to you Christians but I just don't understand that mindset anymore. When I believed it I was young and didn't question it at all-- I defended it with nothing to back up my argument except scripture (ugh...). My friends told me the same things I tell people now as that's what eventually made me question things.
Well get aquainted because you will be spending eternity in HELL together
Intelligent people go to hell? Well then I'm very glad we won't be dealing with people like you. Stop being so offensive, grow up, and stop trolling.
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do we get payed for using the forum?
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]I think it's almost comical. I really had people thinking I believed in God. It is nice to know people cannot tell what your thinking or the truth about you at all. I don't believe in God and never did.
I don't know who you think you had fooled, but you're the most obvious troll I've met on the internet in quite some time, and I take absolutely nothing you say as serious or truth.
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^^^ hahaha yeah! What internet forum did you copy/paste that off of, Marieelissa? Because your grammar has never been that good. Nobody will believe you now. No reason to post here anymore, troll.
do we get payed for using the forum?
Yep! 30 posts per month = 3$
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i agree but many people look at religion in diffrent ways. Iam morman but i only go cause my grandma into it. But i dont really believe in it cause i think we were brought here and human make up thing s to say why we should be on this earth. but it could be there.
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marieelissea let me tell u something a little quick. I am a muslim who came from an Arabic world and I respect and love all the people no matter which religion They belong to because as I know that Mohammed the prophete has came for the muslims , Jesus Christ has came for the christians. If you can just believe in your prophete you will believe in god. If you are a christian and don't believe in Jesus then you won't believe in god. Plus think about the earth, think about the rain, think about the sea, the sun, who has made all these hein ?? Plus god is always preventing things and in this world there are bad and good people and Its just unfair like u said that some people think of themselve more superior of the others but this won't change anything in them. If there is no god then how these people die by themselves, if there is no god then people shouldn't die , as a matter of fact everyone who has reached a certain age and become older enough we should kill him. Why do people die by themselves ?? Who take them ?? Think about it mariemelissa. I will just give this proof that god exist . think about why people die by themselves ? beside getting killed or dead because of being sick .
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Mohammed the prophete has came for the muslims , Jesus Christ has came for the christians. If you can just believe in your prophete you will believe in god.
Funny how everyone changes the rules of their holy books to suit themselves. It says nowhere in the bible that "it's cool to believe in whoever, as long as you believe in something!" It is one of the commandments, in fact, to not have any other gods but the Christian one. It does not say: "P.S. - Allah counts, too! And Vishnu is the same as me. So were Zeus and Ra!"
Plus think about the earth, think about the rain, think about the sea, the sun, who has made all these hein ?? Plus god is always preventing things
We know where all of those things come/came from thanks to science. We did not have the same science back in the days that religious texts were written, and said texts were Bronze Age people trying to explain things. The only reason they still delude so many people today is most people are scared out of their minds by there being nothing after death and that their 70 or so years are just a blip in the grand scheme of things and will be over and have meant nothing before they know it. This is why Christians keep posting in vain in these threads, because they've completely shut themselves away from the hard truth...they're too petrified to even consider it.
"God" certainly does not prevent things...if anything, he gets pleasure out of punishing people and causing natural disasters, plane crashes, cancers, etc.
if there is no god then people shouldn't die , as a matter of fact everyone who has reached a certain age and become older enough we should kill him. Why do people die by themselves ?? Who take them ?? I will just give this proof that god exist . think about why people die by themselves ? beside getting killed or dead because of being sick .
Uh, that doesn't make sense! Proof that god exists is that people die alone?? What? I don't get it. People die because our bodies are not perfect nor free from limits. Things break down and decay and that is the case all across nature. Our universe will one day "die", and none of us will exist period.
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Everybody is entitle to their own opinion, I love Free will.
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You're a guy? I was speaking to you as if you were a girl.
You're a girl? I was speaking to you as if you were a troll.
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Outside of the bible, God is the unexplained component of science. Take the theory of evolution. Evolution can only go back so far. Once you get down to the atom there is a pausing point. Where did the atom come from? Why does the interaction between molecules exist? What causes it? I am no physicist, but the question remains. What about before? This is where God comes into play. God may be different for many people, but the fact that there is SOMETHING is not arguable.
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Quote from: Lovely_Deception on Today at 12:56:05 pm
Outside of the bible, God is the unexplained component of science. Take the theory of evolution. Evolution can only go back so far. Once you get down to the atom there is a pausing point. Where did the atom come from? Why does the interaction between molecules exist? What causes it? I am no physicist, but the question remains. What about before? This is where God comes into play. God may be different for many people, but the fact that there is SOMETHING is not arguable.
Thank you!!!!!! I totally agree!!!
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Thanks for posting your opinion. I disagree however. I believe theer is a God and that after life, we go to Heaven. I am a very strong supporter of this, but I respect your own opinion.
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Oh how I would love to be face to face with ya' while debating this subject. I hope I do not come across as dismissing how you beleive. You are so right their are a lot of self-proclaimed christians that hurt the cause for Christ. He was never boastful or hateful. In fact these are some of the traits that He hates. Jesus walked and talked with sinners, saved and unsaved while He was here on earth. He hated the sin but never the sinner. He loves everyone. That is why He carried out His heavenly fathers plan completely. So that all who beleived in Him shall be saved. It was never God's intention that any of us goes to hell. Hell was created for Satan's final place. God gave us free will because He wants our love freely. No more that what any one of us wants from others. Think about it. He made us after His own image. would you want someone that you had to make love you. I know I don't.
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God may be different for many people, but the fact that there is SOMETHING is not arguable.
First off let me say for the most part I agree with you. This is how I think. But our greatest trait in this argument is also its weakest point-- we do not know what caused these things to happen and therefore cannot say god did it and that there's something out there.
Once you get down to the atom there is a pausing point.
This pausing point is called insufficient information. Life tends to 'want and struggle' to exist so who's to say that it was god or many other complex processes we have yet to discover? The fundamental fact of this is we don't know. People try to pretty it up with old myths or, like in your case, decent positive opinions but in the end we simply aren't there yet to grasp new realities.
God gave us free will because He wants our love freely. No more that what any one of us wants from others. Think about it. He made us after His own image. would you want someone that you had to make love you. I know I don't.
I appreciate how you're actually not pushing it on us like a handful of raging lunatics in this thread. But I have some q's for you-- why do you say loving the christian god is free when it takes the traits of slavery? When you do not love god or disobey him, you are forced into an afterlife of hell and damnation-- this includes loving other gods and not him. And why did he have to create us?
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If you do not follow rules set forth by man, say you kill, there are consequences. The choice is yours, if that is your choice to not love God or to disobey him then that is the consequence.
On earth, all rules are finite. Rules change constantly to better suit society. There were times where it was alright to kill your wife if she disobeyed the husband, but it was a felony charge for stealing eggs from someones farm-- these were in effect to prevent starvation. I would not compare mans rules to gods rules. I still have yet to understand why anyone would want to worship a god who would punish you infinitely for a finite amount of sin or for not loving him.
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You are not punished for sin, but for refusing to ask for forgiveness. As a human you will sin, but it's God's gift of simple forgiveness that can redeem us. As for punishment for not loving him, let's think about this. In the Christian religion God is the father of all humans. Because he gives us free will there must be consequences. Agree? In the Bible it states that keeping the ten commandments is how you show you love God. Because of our choices of sin we are saying we don't love God. Simplified version: keeping commandments = love for God.
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God may be different for many people, but the fact that there is SOMETHING is not arguable.
First off let me say for the most part I agree with you. This is how I think. But our greatest trait in this argument is also its weakest point-- we do not know what caused these things to happen and therefore cannot say god did it and that there's something out there.
Once you get down to the atom there is a pausing point.
This pausing point is called insufficient information. Life tends to 'want and struggle' to exist so who's to say that it was god or many other complex processes we have yet to discover? The fundamental fact of this is we don't know. People try to pretty it up with old myths or, like in your case, decent positive opinions but in the end we simply aren't there yet to grasp new realities.
God gave us free will because He wants our love freely. No more that what any one of us wants from others. Think about it. He made us after His own image. would you want someone that you had to make love you. I know I don't.
I appreciate how you're actually not pushing it on us like a handful of raging lunatics in this thread. But I have some q's for you-- why do you say loving the christian god is free when it takes the traits of slavery? When you do not love god or disobey him, you are forced into an afterlife of hell and damnation-- this includes loving other gods and not him. And why did he have to create us?
For the first two points the answer is faith. That's why it is called faith.
The last bit I have answers. The things you call traits of slavery are just rules. I believe you are using the ten commandments for this. If you actually look at the commandments from a objective standpoint you will find that they mirror that laws successful societies have. The only exceptions are the first three (do not take the Lord's name in vain, keep the sabbath, no other gods). What specifically about this is slavery? As far as not loving him in, the Bible it states that keeping the ten commandments is how you show you love God. Because of our choices of sin we are saying we don't love God.
And why did he create us? Well, I would like to ask him myself.
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God created man because he can. He can do anything he wants. Of course, God is all loving so he probably did it out of love. Everything exists because of Him. I have complete faith in him. God many times has put before us (human kind) the choice between life or death. By disobeying him in any way, we are choosing death, by repenting and trying to be good faithful followers and obeying him we are choosing life. The rules are plain and simple. That is why we have free will. He wants us to make that decision for ourselves. It's the same principle as a child disobeying his parents. If you told your son don't write on the wall and he does there will be consequences. He will get punished. With God it's black and white. The best thing about it all is he knows what's in your heart. He knows the difference between a good person vs a bad. It is not for us to judge but to try and live our lives knowing we owe and explanation to Him, not each other.
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With God it's black and white. The best thing about it all is he knows what's in your heart. He knows the difference between a good person vs a bad. It is not for us to judge but to try and live our lives knowing we owe and explanation to Him, not each other.
Oh you've met him? I mean I've known some people that say things are black and white and they are some of the most stubborn and naive people I've ever met. If this is how he thinks, I'd better stick to the bible because he'll obviously never understand anything I explain to him.
For the first two points the answer is faith. That's why it is called faith.
I can respect that.
The things you call traits of slavery are just rules.
Let's define it quick so you can see what I was getting at-
Slavery - involuntary subjection to another or others. Slavery emphasizes the idea of complete ownership and control by a master.
Now Christians like to throw the free will thing around, but the fact that Christians have to obey these rules or they'll be thrown into hell and be punished for eternity makes me believe Christians are slaves to his system through fear (rules going past the 10 commandments too-- Numbers, Dueteronomy).
"The Problem of Hell is a logical problem related to religion. Hell's general portrayal in Christianity is sometimes perceived as inconsistent with the concepts of an omnibenevolent, just, and moral God."
There's plenty of different route you can take this now though-- "Jesus already saved everyone so we're all clean!" or whatever...I'm too tired to type more tonight...
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I think its interesting the topics that are discussed regarding the existence of God. As humans, I never understood, the fascination with understanding a deity that has been regaled as having a mental capacity that we can not fathom. How can you argue a point about God, when you don't even understand the reason for your own existence. Even if you don't believe in the God of christianity, you still should believe in the consequences of your actions. The bible was meant for instructional use in day to day life. Not to live the life of a saint, but to acknowledge whether a decision you make will have a negative consequence. If you make decisions that are wise, you'll find that most of your lifes undoing was by your own hand. The choice of life or death, is figurative. Choose life, you choice to be wise in your life until your death, choose death, your choosing the life of a fool, until your death.
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I do not believe in god. I work with special needs children in several very religious homes, I stay with the child so that they can attend their services, if it was not for me, someone would have to miss the thing that they believe most in. I think that I am the better person for accepting that others are not secure in their own lives and that they need to believe in something. I also feel that the bible is the earliest form of science fiction out there. But to each their own and I love my life as it is. I also love to mess with the Jehovahs when they show up at my door!!! :) I generally do not swear, but it is nice to see them start to squirm when they are bombarded with it.....free speech :)
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Let's define it quick so you can see what I was getting at-
Slavery - involuntary subjection to another or others. Slavery emphasizes the idea of complete ownership and control by a master.
Now Christians like to throw the free will thing around, but the fact that Christians have to obey these rules or they'll be thrown into hell and be punished for eternity makes me believe Christians are slaves to his system through fear (rules going past the 10 commandments too-- Numbers, Dueteronomy).
According to your own definition, the Bible does not subjugate people to slavery. As far as not following the rules it's the same as laws in society. For example: if you murder someone then by mortal law you will go to jail or possibly the death penalty. You will also be punished by God for breaking his commandments. When you are young and you tell a lie and your parents catch you you are punished. These are all things that are in the Bible. Would you call mortals slaves to the Government? We still have a choice to do wrong, but we will be punished if we do wrong. This is the SAME concept as the Bible.
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Education has absolutely nothing to do with a person's belief. What I will say is that everyone has their own beliefs whether it is about something trivial or something as large as religion. If a person chooses not to believe in God, that is their choice and even if I believe in God, which I do, that does not give me the right to condemn them in any way. We walk around trying to judge each other and for what, because the Bible clearly says, "thou shalt not judge". My belief as well as many christians in the world is that God has the final say, so trying to Make a person see things our way is not following that belief. Let God have the final say and treat that person with respect in the meantime.
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Education has absolutely nothing to do with a person's belief. What I will say is that everyone has their own beliefs whether it is about something trivial or something as large as religion. If a person chooses not to believe in God, that is their choice and even if I believe in God, which I do, that does not give me the right to condemn them in any way. We walk around trying to judge each other and for what, because the Bible clearly says, "thou shalt not judge". My belief as well as many christians in the world is that God has the final say, so trying to Make a person see things our way is not following that belief. Let God have the final say and treat that person with respect in the meantime.
I agree to a point. How is trying to make others believe not treating a person with respect. The only time this is not respect is when you try to force it.
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Everybody is entitle to their own opinion, I love Free will.
Hah, guess you've never heard of determinism. But that is an entirely different issue, even more grave than the non-existence of god... ;)
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Christians are humans we make mistakes just like everyone esle. We do wrong we have to go to the Father and ask forgivness. Peope watch others and see how they live, some times it effects there way of doing if they see people that supose to live right. If they are doing that then why should I try 2 be like that.
I am A christian not a perfect 1! I admit that :thumbsup: Each day is a challenge for me :heart: :crybaby2: SO is it for you or not :dontknow:
:peace: and :heart: to us ALL :angel11:
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Outside of the bible, God is the unexplained component of science. Take the theory of evolution. Evolution can only go back so far. Once you get down to the atom there is a pausing point. Where did the atom come from? Why does the interaction between molecules exist? What causes it? I am no physicist, but the question remains. What about before? This is where God comes into play. God may be different for many people, but the fact that there is SOMETHING is not arguable.
Just because science hasn't answered certain things does not discount the very plausible reality that one day it will. Saying it's god for the things that we don't have the answers to yet is very poor logic indeed. Physical laws can exist "just because" just as you claim god can exist "just because", and it's a thousand times more rational to look at scientific EVIDENCE and have the courage to admit everything was and is possible without a god. God is a cop-out to the reality you're all too scared to admit.
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For those who beleive, no proof is needed. For those who do not, there never is enough proof. :angel11:
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if god was not real then why is the earth so pretty and why does the bible make so much sense. i do believe and i think he is real and i know he is real . :heart: :star: :wave: :icon_rr: :male: :female: i think everything adds up to something bigger than humans can understand. including the perception of 2012. :angel12: :BangHead:
Education has absolutely nothing to do with a person's belief. What I will say is that everyone has their own beliefs whether it is about something trivial or something as large as religion. If a person chooses not to believe in God, that is their choice and even if I believe in God, which I do, that does not give me the right to condemn them in any way. We walk around trying to judge each other and for what, because the Bible clearly says, "thou shalt not judge". My belief as well as many christians in the world is that God has the final say, so trying to Make a person see things our way is not following that belief. Let God have the final say and treat that person with respect in the meantime.
I agree to a point. How is trying to make others believe not treating a person with respect. The only time this is not respect is when you try to force it.
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There is no hard/real evidence that a god exists.
Same goes for souls and the afterlife.
People believe such things because they were either taught to at a young age, or if they had a traumatic experience so they latched onto a religion because the fantastic promises helps to ease their pain.
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According to your own definition, the Bible does not subjugate people to slavery. As far as not following the rules it's the same as laws in society. For example: if you murder someone then by mortal law you will go to jail or possibly the death penalty. You will also be punished by God for breaking his commandments. When you are young and you tell a lie and your parents catch you you are punished. These are all things that are in the Bible. Would you call mortals slaves to the Government? We still have a choice to do wrong, but we will be punished if we do wrong. This is the SAME concept as the Bible.
The bible subjegates people to slavery in both the old and new testament. And we as mortals tend to get far more technical and educated in our laws (I speak of more than just the 10 commandments like I said earlier). Quick example- 500 years ago you would be killed for being a homosexual. The bible speaks negatively of gays. Today it's actually starting be accepted because we've researched the aspects of it and find nothing too abnormal with that behavior. Gays are (usually) good people just as straights are or aren't. Laws are in place to defend gay rights. Gay marriage is slowly becoming a normal occurance. But by the Christian gods standards it's wrong. So if I defend gay rights and good people, I will be punished by god. There's a huge moral gray-area here...I have the right to choose to not follow the Christian law and be sent to hell or I could conform to the law. Just as a slave may run from his plantation and be shot or conform and do the masters bidding (I know I know...extreme example).
I would also venture to say mortals are slaves to their governments. Slavery exists today all over the place in different ways-- the definition of slave can be jolted around in this argument though so I really don't want to go too far into it. I'll start to sound emo with all my "conformist" talk.
Looks like the Virgin Mary to me!
Looks like the visible spectrum to me. If it moved like a human and spoke with no logical explanation to it, I may think it is. But this is on par with believing thunder is actually angels bowling above the clouds. I once thought I saw Giygas from Earthbound in a church window caused by the same thing.
God is a cop-out to the reality you're all too scared to admit
There is no hard/real evidence that a god exists.
Same goes for souls and the afterlife.
People believe such things because they were either taught to at a young age, or if they had a traumatic experience so they latched onto a religion because the fantastic promises helps to ease their pain.
I would say this defines atheism well. Nicely said.
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The bible subjegates people to slavery in both the old and new testament. And we as mortals tend to get far more technical and educated in our laws (I speak of more than just the 10 commandments like I said earlier). Quick example- 500 years ago you would be killed for being a homosexual. The bible speaks negatively of gays. Today it's actually starting be accepted because we've researched the aspects of it and find nothing too abnormal with that behavior. Gays are (usually) good people just as straights are or aren't. Laws are in place to defend gay rights. Gay marriage is slowly becoming a normal occurance. But by the Christian gods standards it's wrong. So if I defend gay rights and good people, I will be punished by god. There's a huge moral gray-area here...I have the right to choose to not follow the Christian law and be sent to hell or I could conform to the law. Just as a slave may run from his plantation and be shot or conform and do the masters bidding (I know I know...extreme example).
I would also venture to say mortals are slaves to their governments. Slavery exists today all over the place in different ways-- the definition of slave can be jolted around in this argument though so I really don't want to go too far into it. I'll start to sound emo with all my "conformist" talk.
The law says we must tolerate homosexuals, not defend and support them. There is no moral-gray area because you can refuse to support it but still tolerate it.
The reason I believe the Bible speaks against homosexual relationship because it goes against nature. A man and man cannot make a child nor can a woman and a woman. God wants us to continue our species, and the only way to do this is through intercourse between a man and woman. v
If you believe government is our master and we are slaves then going by that definition slavery is a good thing...
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The law says we must tolerate homosexuals, not defend and support them. There is no moral-gray area because you can refuse to support it but still tolerate it.
The reason I believe the Bible speaks against homosexual relationship because it goes against nature. A man and man cannot make a child nor can a woman and a woman. God wants us to continue our species, and the only way to do this is through intercourse between a man and woman. v
If you believe government is our master and we are slaves then going by that definition slavery is a good thing...
You're right about the tolerating thing-- I made a mistake on that. But our laws defend the basic rights of homosexuals. But I feel you jumped over what I was trying to say because I meant if an individual wants to support gays because they are decent people but his religion says otherwise...there's the gray area.
Homosexuality does not go against nature as it is constantly observed in nature. Granted it is abnormal weighed against heterosexuality, but it's not damaging the natural system of things. Everyone is not 'going to go gay' suddenly which will lead us into extinction. Coupled with the problem of over-population in parts of the world, adoption agencies desperately trying to find stable couples, and the lack of food and resources to go around, I do not understand why it's looked at as such an abomination. This is a perfect example of an outdated law that has people preaching hatred, death, and eternal damnation towards couples that love eachother. How Christian. Our culture needs to get passed these old silly laws despite what their jealous god says.
As far as government = slavery, it really depends on peoples opinions on their governing systems. Some may see it as freedom, some may see it as "the man constantly keepin' me down!" Like I said, the term slavery can be tilted a lot of ways in this type of argument so that's why I didn't want to go into it.
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There are many Cultures, including mine, who not only tolerate two spirits(gays) but have great admiration and respect for them. It is said that just as not just anyone is going to be a spiritual leader(medicine person) neither is just anyone going to be two spirit.
One does not become a Spiritual Leader nor does on become two spirit, either you are or you aren't.
It is a belief that two spirits have a deeper connecting with the spirit world and there for a heightened more enlightened Spirituality.
Christian dogma is just goofy........
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For those who beleive, no proof is needed. For those who do not, there never is enough proof. :angel11:
You're right about the first part, but not about the latter.
Those who believe are content to stop thinking for themselves because god satisfies their darkest fears of purposelessness and death. Too bad we invented him.
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if god was not real then why is the earth so pretty and why does the bible make so much sense. i do believe and i think he is real and i know he is real . :heart: :star: :wave: :icon_rr: :male: :female: i think everything adds up to something bigger than humans can understand. including the perception of 2012. :angel12: :BangHead:
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and just because one interprets something as beautiful does not mean there's proof for a god. Humans are still capable of interpreting things as beautiful or ugly, regardless of their origin.
If you think the Bible makes sense, you must be one of those Christians who hasn't actually read it. I bet your knowledge of the Bible is limited to the "feel-good" parts you're told at church. If you actually sit down and read it all the way through for a change, one of two things will happen: you'll either make excuses for the fairytale stories, god murdering everyone, and the ridiculous and useless laws, or you'll dare to think - even for a moment - that the stuff you are reading is kind of F*ed up and may say to yourself, why do my fellow Christians ignore how F*ed up the Bible is?
As for 2012...oh boy I hope you don't believe in that, too.
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What exactly happened to make you change your mind??? Is this an emotional or educational decision??? No matter what religion I am, I'm very strong to point out that we are all responsible for our own destinies.... :thumbsup:
Very good point made right there. Whether you believe in God or not, I don't believe any of us can argue that we were all given the 'power' of choice and therefore DO determine our own destinies. I realize a lot of things happen in life that are completely out of our control, but I have no tolerance for those people who are always the victim. If you want to get honest, take a look at something 'bad' that has happened to you and I think you will most likely find some contribution YOU made to the bad outcome.
I am not a religious person in the formal sense of what that entails ie church, organized thoughts on deities, etc., but I am a spiritual person and believe we are all connected in some way. I have no fear of death (ask me about that when it's knocking on my door ;)), but I DO fear the day is coming when virtually no one will give a rat's patootie about anyone other than themselves and THAT scares the h*ll out of me!
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I can't wait till you meet God and feel stupid.
Shut up, troll. Go back under your bridge.
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Well I do believe in a god...but i guess you have the right to your opinion.
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I really do not care how you or anyone else believes in god or not. this is none of my business and my religous views are none of your business.
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Outside of the bible, God is the unexplained component of science. Take the theory of evolution. Evolution can only go back so far. Once you get down to the atom there is a pausing point. Where did the atom come from? Why does the interaction between molecules exist? What causes it? I am no physicist, but the question remains. What about before? This is where God comes into play. God may be different for many people, but the fact that there is SOMETHING is not arguable.
Just because science hasn't answered certain things does not discount the very plausible reality that one day it will. Saying it's god for the things that we don't have the answers to yet is very poor logic indeed. Physical laws can exist "just because" just as you claim god can exist "just because", and it's a thousand times more rational to look at scientific EVIDENCE and have the courage to admit everything was and is possible without a god. God is a cop-out to the reality you're all too scared to admit.
What specific reality are we all too scared to admit? Science and religion go together. One does not disprove the other.
How can physical law just exist? This requires faith, it is not proven. However, if you believe that it just exist, with no start or finish, I cannot argue with that.
I agree it's a possibility that scientists can discover what came before the atom, but you're missing my point. Where did anything come from? Where did the very basic energy that created the components of the atom? There is GOING to be a point when you simply CANNOT go back any farther, and something is going to have to fill it in.
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hi! i dont blame u for not believing in god. everyone has their own beliefs. sometimes i dont believe in him either coz of the things that have been happening. all i know and believe is everything happens or has happened for a reason. what's the reason? who knows.
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What specific reality are we all too scared to admit? Science and religion go together. One does not disprove the other.
How can physical law just exist? This requires faith, it is not proven. However, if you believe that it just exist, with no start or finish, I cannot argue with that.
I agree it's a possibility that scientists can discover what came before the atom, but you're missing my point. Where did anything come from? Where did the very basic energy that created the components of the atom? There is GOING to be a point when you simply CANNOT go back any farther, and something is going to have to fill it in.
The average person would be scared sh*tless to find that there is: no god, no purpose, no one looking out for you, no afterlife, no free will. That is the reality I am referring to and the one that the majority of people try to cover up with a god.
Faith is a term exclusive to Christians, thanks. "It doesn't take faith to believe in physical laws," my husband said as he let go of his Xbox controller and let it fall to the couch, demonstrating gravity. "They are consistently all around us."
As for having "something to fill it in", why is it acceptable to slap a god label on the things we haven't discovered yet and call it quits? And even if we never have full knowledge of certain things, why is a mystical being the trump card solution? Why does god not have his origins questioned? Simply because you say so and "because he's god"? That sounds like something a kid would say.
We have a good amount of scientific data regarding our origins already, and for a person to try to argue against it really shows how desperate they are to cling to their feeble beliefs. The questions you SHOULD be asking go back to your god and the Bible. Can I read of all of these horrible things god did and truly delude myself into thinking he is a lovable, just guy? Do I seriously believe the world was created in 7 days 6,000 years ago or that Eve was tempted by a talking snake and ate a piece of fruit and that's why there is so much bad in the world today? Why are all of god's "miracles" in today's world things that could totally happen without divine intervention? Why do we have to "believe" in god anyway? If god really existed it would be a fact, not something you had to "believe" in.
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What specific reality are we all too scared to admit? Science and religion go together. One does not disprove the other.
Seriously? Come on now. Science and religion are major rivals. Religion allows for the impossible. Science disproves religion all the time. I'll whip out the old picture here--
(http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/232/religionkv0.png)
This requires faith, it is not proven. However, if you believe that it just exist, with no start or finish, I cannot argue with that
This requires belief. Not faith. Faith is spiritual-based whereas a belief is reality-based as queenof9's example on her husbands xbox thing.
There is GOING to be a point when you simply CANNOT go back any farther, and something is going to have to fill it in.
The human mind cannot grasp the infinite, so we are impaired to say that this is true. This is a prime example of throwing the "god-label" on things we cannot understand (yet).
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Great diagram. ;) It's huge, too, so hopefully some Christian will see it.
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06/06/06 has already passed us, troll.
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Just joining in here, i'll say that i'm personally agnostic.
I believe that it's just as impossible to prove that God doesn't exist or does exist.
I have no problem with God, but my pet peeve is with religion itself. For those that religion has personally helped and made them better people, rock on. But we can all agree that there have been many people of every religion in the past who have done bad things in the name of God.
Also, doesn't religion basically imply that one is right and everyone else is wrong? I think humanity gets so caught up with the RIGHT WAY to worship God instead of simply worshiping him (her? it? force?).
I look forward to a world where we all get along, whether it will happen or not.
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
I feel sorry for you, sir. Having no belief is the most empty feeling in the world. We don't worship the figure on a cross, it is to remember Jesus. We never worship it of any sort.
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Also, doesn't religion basically imply that one is right and everyone else is wrong?
That's mostly a Christian misinterpretation.
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Also, doesn't religion basically imply that one is right and everyone else is wrong?
That's mostly a Christian misinterpretation.
Not really, i come from a jewish background, and a lot of jews will say that other christianity is false.
Though perhaps i should word what i said differently. Few religions say that they're right and the rest are wrong outright. But that's what causes the extremists to go and antagonize others. Speaking of which, that's what i have a problem with the most. Extremism. I'm not attacking any person for the religion they believe in, and i have friends of many different religions. It's when religion is forced upon someone else that grinds my gears.
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Okay aren't you just so cool! Your just so awesome for posting in a MONEY MAKING forum how you don't believe in God and you are obviously trying to stir up problems and contraversy. You said you believe in love and peace if that were true even the littlest bit you wouldn't have even started this thread it's completely pointless and it's just a rant because you are obviously mad at the world. I believe in God and honestly most of my friends actually do not believe in God whatsoever! But we never talk about it you know why? Because we don't want to cause problems... I hope you atleast feel cool for posting this...
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I feel sorry for you, sir. Having no belief is the most empty feeling in the world.
It's only an empty feeling when you choose to deny it while thinking the aspects are still there. When you realize it's really not there, you have nothing to worry about.
Okay aren't you just so cool! Your just so awesome for posting in a MONEY MAKING forum how you don't believe in God and you are obviously trying to stir up problems and contraversy.
Woah woah woah! Calm down there!
You said you believe in love and peace if that were true even the littlest bit you wouldn't have even started this thread it's completely pointless and it's just a rant because you are obviously mad at the world.
Actually this thread was made because the off-topic forum was being flooded with "PROOF GOD EXISTS PT. 1" "PT. 2" "PT. 3" and "I BELIEVE IN JESUS! DO YOU?" and a bunch of others I forget the name of. They were full of religious nutjobs that were spreading their infection. Just FYI.
But we never talk about it you know why? Because we don't want to cause problems... I hope you atleast feel cool for posting this...
You've never had a discussion or argument with them? You should! You can learn a lot about people. Man, I have a lot of stories I could tell you!
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^ No I haven't because I know they do not agree with my beliefs. I do not like to cause issues I do not want to start problems that are completely avoidable. They are my friends regardless and I respect their beliefs I do not judge people because they do not believe a certain thing. But one thing I hate is when a person literally tries to make someone mad.. I never saw those other posts but they sound like they atleast had a positive attitude. I wouldn't care if they were talking about being any religion as long as they were being genuine and not being negative. I don't like this thread. It just seems like the OP was trying to start problems she has a very negative attitude about the whole Christian religion.
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Well, look. Regardless of how this thread started out, i now see it as a way to calmly discuss God and religion as rational adults, all the while doing our best not to offend anyone. There are people with many different views in this thread, after.
I, for one, disagree with the topic creator on athieism. Just as i see no way to prove there is a God, i see no definitive way to prove otherwise, as well. But that doesn't mean i'm going to fault her for believeing as such.
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I know they do not agree with my beliefs.
So you have argued with them? Tell me about it. :)
I never saw those other posts but they sound like they atleast had a positive attitude.
The threads were furthest from unfortunately. The posts that were christian-oriented usually were misinformed and easily debatable. It was literally people just pushing their beliefs on others and folding their arms. Arguments errupted. It was a good read.
It just seems like the OP was trying to start problems she has a very negative attitude about the whole Christian religion.
She was not starting problems. She was making a thread that ran parallel to all the other ones. This one was about god not existing rather than existing-- to hear and see where the other side of the argument stems, you come here.
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*Humps Falconer's Leg*
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^ No I haven't because I know they do not agree with my beliefs. I do not like to cause issues I do not want to start problems that are completely avoidable. They are my friends regardless and I respect their beliefs I do not judge people because they do not believe a certain thing.
But your friends are going to hell if you don't save them!!!
Right??
...I love one of Merriam-Webster's definitions for faith: "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" - hahaha
I am not making that up, check it yourself online.
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she has a very negative attitude about the whole Christian religion.
Most Indians do, which she is......if you are getting all bent about her having a negative view about "the whole christian religion".....I'd suggest you not read any of my posts.
If you, like most christians, do not wish to learn whats so immoral, hypocritical etc etc etc about your chosen belief system, I'd suggest you re-insert your head into the sand and pretty much not read any posts here.......there are many members here who actually research and knowthe facts that they post and are only more than happy to enlighten people who are so obviously clue-less about what they scream so loudly about.
The level of passion one inserts into their argument does nothing at all to make falsehoods become true.
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If you, like most christians, do not wish to learn whats so immoral, hypocritical etc etc etc about your chosen belief system,
One could say the same concerning any faith, yours included. Those who single others out are more often than not just trying to rationalize or justify their own beliefs. Are your own beliefs so insignificant that you feel the need to step on others to pull yourself up?
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Not at all, I simply point out the blatant supremacy and other hateful thinking that is perpetrated by the Christian faith and how the religion itself was formed as a way to subjugate followers and nonbelievers as well.
Most self professed christians dispute these facts are are either blind to them......or liars.
I believe it is a duty for everyone to expose atrocious behavior where ever and when ever it occurs in an attempt to discourage the acts.
I think most so called christians do not truly understand what the faith is really teaching and I would personally love to see all these "righteous" folks denounce such hateful teachings and form a new "faith" reflective of their true beliefs and morals and discontinue enabling atrocious and supremacist organizations.
As for my personal spirituality.....here-in lies another motivating factor. Millions of "Relatives" have bravely stood against such hateful acts and for the protection of our traditions and in fact our very Culture. My way of honoring their heroic acts and spirit is to continue the struggle until finally one day we can say that until the day of our 7th generation, my descendants will be free to be who they are in their every day life, in their Spirituality, in their beliefs, in their Culture in every way.
We, as indians, do not say we have a religion, for in fact most of us do not, we have our Spirituality. In other words, we do not have a place we go to study and be told what to believe one or two days a week. We have a life way that we live all day, every day. Most of us will not disrespect the teachings of the Elders by throwing them around frivolously. This is not to say we will not speak of some things to someone who respects and honors them, however, I can not be baited into thoughtlessly throwing out any of our ways onto a public online forum to be disrespected, mis-appropriated, bastardized or exploited in any way.
We can, and in fact must "adapt" in some ways, however the teachings of the Elders must be protected and kept pure.
Being Indian is not a matter of some DNA that is part of us, however, without the dna being Indian would be impossible.
Assimilation is a tool used to advance the hateful agendas of people who think they are better than he who they are attempting to assimilate, in other words, they are supremacists.
Assimilation causes one to give up their traditions, beliefs, language and in fact Culture and replace it with that of another culture.
When and if the forced assimilation process of the indigenous of Turtle Island is complete,and the Culture has been replaced......there will be no more Indians, regardless of blood quantum or dreams or warm and fuzzy feelings.......we will all, simply be .....Americans.
Personally.....I find that to be an unnecessary and unacceptable loss.
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As for my personal spirituality.....here-in lies another motivating factor. Millions of "Relatives" have bravely stood against such hateful acts and for the protection of our traditions and in fact our very Culture. My way of honoring their heroic acts and spirit is to continue the struggle until finally one day we can say that until the day of our 7th generation, my descendants will be free to be who they are in their every day life, in their Spirituality, in their beliefs, in their Culture in every way.
You wish for your own people what you would try and deny others? Do you not see the inconsistency in such reasoning?
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Very little is denied to one who comes in a good way.
One who comes with an air of entitlement and demands usually departs with much less than they came seeking.
One has no way of knowing who reads these forums or what they will attempt to do with anything the glean from such threads.
I have said it before......"Don't give away your medicine, lest it lose it's power."
Do not give away, meaning, do your very best to protect.
I'm sure you have heard the "time and place for every thing" declaration most of our parents were all too ready to hand down?
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Lol wow honestly you all are the crazy ones.
Why in the world are you all "Non Christians" so worried about the Christian religion? Why don't you just not worry about it. Save some breathe. Because it's actually very strange how you all are so mad that people are Christians and gang up on every one. Like seriously lol get a life. I don't believe in being a Buddhist but I don't go on forums and try my best to prove to them how it's bull. Why would I? It's pointless. I have better things to do. We don't care what you say either. Because honestly I know God exists and I don't care what anyone says because he has proven to me he exists :)
Miracles have happend to me and I would probably never would've believed in God but I now know he definitely exists. You don't have to believe in him.. that's your choice. Why are you trying to push your beliefs down MY thorat? Acting like I'm an idiot and saying things trying to bring me and other Christians down. YOU ALL are the hypocrits. How about you do something useful in your life and not spend your entire life trying to "prove" how Christianity is not true.. lol that is just pathetic!
If you don't believe then don't worry aout it.
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Lol wow honestly you all are the crazy ones.
Why in the world are you all "Non Christians" so worried about the Christian religion? Why don't you just not worry about it. Save some breathe. Because it's actually very strange how you all are so mad that people are Christians and gang up on every one. Like seriously lol get a life. I don't believe in being a Buddhist but I don't go on forums and try my best to prove to them how it's bull. Why would I? It's pointless. I have better things to do. We don't care what you say either. Because honestly I know God exists and I don't care what anyone says because he has proven to me he exists :)
Miracles have happend to me and I would probably never would've believed in God but I now know he definitely exists. You don't have to believe in him.. that's your choice. Why are you trying to push your beliefs down MY thorat? Acting like I'm an idiot and saying things trying to bring me and other Christians down. YOU ALL are the hypocrits. How about you do something useful in your life and not spend your entire life trying to "prove" how Christianity is not true.. lol that is just pathetic!
If you don't believe then don't worry aout it.
tell ya what......when never again the molestation of children is covered up by the church, or when never again a person is looked down on because they are not christian, when never again a law is passed with the precedence for that law being "manifest Destiny or The Doctrine of Discovery", just to name a couple things, then I will "not worry about it".
Until then, I will speak out on the centuries of genocide committed to peoples all around the world by, and in the name of Christianity!!!!!
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lol wow and you think this is all because of Christianity there are bad people EVERYWHERE! There is indeed horrible horrible people who claim themselves as Christian but does that mean you must critisize every Christian in the world. That's actually very hypocritical. Your reason for not liking Christians contradicts the whole reason you don't like Christianity. Just because there are some bad people who claim they are Christians does not mean you can dislike every one... that is complete nonsense you make absolutely no sense what so ever. You say you do not like Christians because they look down on people well maybe some do but the ones I know do not. You are the one critisizing and labeling the whole Christian religion. Do you know ever Christian in the world? Okay then well maybe you should just close your mouth then,
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lol wow and you think this is all because of Christianity there are bad people EVERYWHERE! There is indeed horrible horrible people who claim themselves as Christian but does that mean you must critisize every Christian in the world. That's actually very hypocritical. Your reason for not liking Christians contradicts the whole reason you don't like Christianity. Just because there are some bad people who claim they are Christians does not mean you can dislike every one... that is complete nonsense you make absolutely no sense what so ever. You say you do not like Christians because they look down on people well maybe some do but the ones I know do not. You are the one critisizing and labeling the whole Christian religion. Do you know ever Christian in the world? Okay then well maybe you should just close your mouth then,
Man, I hate going over this again and again every time someone new becomes a member......
I have nothing against "christians" I have a hell of alot against Christianity. Believe me, there is a difference.
Your post is proof that you are yet another of the clueless who have no idea what the christian doctrine truly is.
Not what some bad people made it but what it was originally conceived and intentionally designed to be.
I hope.....you are one of the ones I speak of that are basiclly good people who have been mislead into supporting an institution of hate, being disguised as something righteous.
Of course there are those yet who know full well what christianity promotes and agrees with the bigoted supremacy.
Which are you?
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Walksalone, I think you're confusing the basis for Christianity with what the Catholic church turned it into. I've read every word of Jesus Christ, not just what the Council of Niceea declared I should, so you may fool uneducated individuals into believing that Christianity is based off of horrid principles and practices, but I know better. Catholicism is by no means the roots of Christianity.
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Well walksalone I know a lot about Christianity (of course) I went to a Christian School half my life. What exactly are you talking about the horrible things Christianity promotes? I too think you are confusing Christianity with Catholics which are BY FAR totally different.. The OP was also raised Catholic. Maybe you 2 are getting confused. I agree with Christianity. No one will ever change that so you might as well not even try. I myself am trying to figure out why you looked so much into Christianity if you are not interested in believeing in Jesus.
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OK guys, we could step off the throat of the catholic church and onto the intent of the bible but in mind of expediting the debate and not having to rehash old material please use the search option with the keyword "bible" and read some of the threads from the past 3 or 4 months.
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Sorry but there is no need for me to do that I know enough about the bible as it is. :angel11:
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HEY KEWL!!!!!
I've always heard of folks who know it all but never met one of them.....can we be frens?????
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I hope you're not referring to the atrocities committed in the Old Testament as this "intent" you mentioned.
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Wow. So immature. I do know enough about the bible.. did I say I knew EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING nope.. Just about the bible. I'm positive I know more than you do cnsidering you aren't even a Christian. You probably look on google and type in bible contraversary or something like that... And think you know everything about the bible.
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Yeah man you're certainly not helping your case by being so belligerent, J.J. I have to say if I were in the process of trying to choose the better belief system I would pick Lacey's due to the way she represents her faith through patient rather than childish and/or harsh words.
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sounds good, thanx ;)
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I've found that those who feel the need to bash other peoples' beliefs are just trying to hide the insecurity they feel with their own.
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well i have nothing to say about this because i don't want to be a hypocrite about religious topic. but i do think that some Christians are wrong too. i just don't like there style on how they can think highly that your going to hell if your not a christian or forcing them to turn and just keep on patronizing it. its just stupid im a christian myself but i would never think highly of anyone like that. it just make what we believe in look bad because they think they know everything about god and the bible but they don't. that's why i had to step off from this religion because of there behavior towards other people that don't believe. forcing people to believe in something is not right its just stupid.
but i am concisder myself a christian its just i am embarrassed of some Christians because of there behavior.
your right on one thing kim just do what you have to do and live life.
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Angel.....I'm sure you have some way of substantiating that......do tell.
Sammy......RIGHT ON!!!
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Substantiate something I've discerned through interactions with people such as yourself over the course of my life? That's...pretty dumb.
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Substantiate something I've discerned through interactions with people such as yourself over the course of my life? That's...pretty dumb.
...and making a claim on a debate forum that you can't back up with facts, isn't?
I see.
Carry on
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on one thing why do people have to bash other religious group like that?
its childish you can debate it but please don't be hateful just because they believe on something.
we have rights
want to debate ? back it up.
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Substantiate something I've discerned through interactions with people such as yourself over the course of my life? That's...pretty dumb.
...and making a claim on a debate forum that you can't back up with facts, isn't?
I see.
Carry on
Something I discerned, smart one. Find a dictionary and then we'll talk.
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this topic should be closed
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Why, Sammy?
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because you guys are hating on each other
just stop the hating
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Sammy Sammy Sammy......when people discuss a subject and have opposing views it doesn't mean that they hate each other.
Debate and discussion is a good thing.
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ive read what you wrote you don't believe on any religious group so how can you back up your own facts? you learned on few things yeah but dont go on and on that you actually know something about there belief.
like i said before if you can debate on something that you know and learned back it up.
your just bashing but i do thank you for you comments on what i said earlier its just i have to say your the one who is causing all the trouble here on this topic.
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Agree! people have different points of view and it doesn't mean that one or the other are right in what they belive...
I believe in God and in everything that is paranormal. I'm talking with several experiences in my side and :heart:
love you everyone!!
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@walksalone
dont try to put down other beliefs like that
be more considerate to others while debating
your making it worse that you think all christians are bad because on what you heard but did you learn ?
the question is this why you hate christians so much?
i have no problem on what you guys believe in and its hard you gotta admit religious topics are hard to back up.
what you said was out of line and should know better.
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Thank you, Sammy.
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:heart: :peace:YOU BELIEVE IN GOD OR NOT, THE BIBLE IS ALL I NEED 2 BACK UP MY WHAT I BELIEVE IN IS GOD AND HIS WORD NOT MANS WORD :angel11:
SEARCH YOUR OWN HEART :heart:
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Dammit it would help Christianity's cause if most of its followers weren't complete retards. No offense folks. :angel12:
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Whether you believe in him or not,,,He is very REAL! :heart:
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]I think it's almost comical. I really had people thinking I believed in God. It is nice to know people cannot tell what your thinking or the truth about you at all. I don't believe in God and never did.
I don't know who you think you had fooled, but you're the most obvious troll I've met on the internet in quite some time, and I take absolutely nothing you say as serious or truth.
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae148/elissa_028/e7b0a8a77d192df0a4076bc834dab028.gif)
Are you trying to punish or reward me?
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*Humps Falconer's Leg*
Down, boy! Down!
I am a Baptist.
No. You are a troll. A very annoying one at that. Nice work on constantly proving it.
Dammit it would help Christianity's cause if most of its followers weren't complete retards. No offense folks.
It's sad. As offensive as your statement does sound, by definition it's practically the truth.
Retardation - slowness or limitation in intellectual understanding and awareness, emotional development, academic progress, etc.
There are plenty of christians that are open to hearing differences involving their faith and facts-- the ones that open their minds to current laws or new scientific theories. I know a lot of you Christians here are like this. But unfortunately I'm assured that the majority are incapable of opening up to different ideas and views. Heck, they just did a poll in Texas and found 1/3rd of the polled population believes dinosaurs walked the earth with humans.
http://www.texastribune.org/stories/2010/feb/17/meet-flintstones/
(gotta love the title)
FYI: if you really thought infection was being spread, you might wanna go get yourself checked out the way you been following the "religious nutjobs" all over the forum and criticizing everything they say. I gotta say, for someone that finds "religious nutjobs" so "contagious", you sure love to spend alot of forum time with them!!
I'm trying to produce a vaccine!
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Or are you trying to lie to us "gullible", "retarded", "contagious religious nut jobs" in hopes that we'll believe you and not notice you're still hanging out here around us?
Uhh what? I don't lie.
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Maybe you should find another hobby :thumbsup:
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(http://www.mattjmcd.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/high-five-300x300.jpg)
HIGH FIVE!
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eh, i believe that there is something greater than humans out there, but as to what it/he/she should be called...... :dontknow:
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Why in the world are you all "Non Christians" so worried about the Christian religion? Why don't you just not worry about it.........I don't believe in being a Buddhist but I don't go on forums and try my best to prove to them how it's bull. Why would I? It's pointless......We don't care what you say either. Because honestly I know God exists and I don't care what anyone says because he has proven to me he exists :) YOU ALL are the hypocrits.
Why am I worried? Because the majority of people have sacrificed the ability to think. They have childish fairy tales at the center of their lives that lead them to commit atrocities, from gay-bashing to full-fledged 9/11. I'm worried because billions of people are being lied to, given false hope. It causes them to live their lives very differently, wasting time, money, and mental effort in vain. Granted, many individuals would not be able to function if they knew the truth about god, and for the purpose of passing on the gene, religion is needed in individuals who wouldn't be able to cope otherwise. It's a sad reality for me living in the world where it seems the majority of humans are scared and weak and have to resort to impossible pipe dreams just to cope with being alive.
Why is being a Buddhist bull but a Christian isn't? :)
And having informative discussion is not completely pointless...there may be people quietly reading who choose not to participate in the talk, but what we discuss is helping them. Or 5 years from now, something an intelligent atheist said might strike a chord with a doubting Christian. The tools and information need to be out there, even though you're completely right, most of the Christians are so far-gone, stubborn, close-minded, and delusional that any mountain of evidence against their security-blanket religion will not phase them at all. This is usually because they're in the camp of people who wouldn't be able to function if they found out there wasn't a god. They're so petrified to admit that could be true that they cling to their pipe dreams of heaven, prayer, etc.
How are atheists hypocrites? We don't have a F-ed up book telling us what is right and wrong. We don't have a way we're "supposed" to act like you do.
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I've found that those who feel the need to bash other peoples' beliefs are just trying to hide the insecurity they feel with their own.
Only if they believe in the impossible. ;)
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wow, this is geting deep in here. for those who beleive, no proof is needed. for those who do not, there is never enough... thank God it is a free country. :heart:
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You're a hypocrit because you all say that Christians try to force our religion down others throat. Which is exactly what you are doing. You are forcing your religion onto me.. Saying that God is not real and all that crap. Why do you feel the need to convert Christians into being Atheists? That's ridiculus. You may be making people believe there is no God which is just messed up. Let people believe what they wish. That is how you're being a hypocrit. Also by saying you believe in peaace and love and everything but then trying to make people doubt their own religion. Well it didn't work. I will NEVER not believe in God. I may not trust everything that is in the bible exactly only because man wrote it. I am not your average Christian but I am definitely a Christian.
Oh and by the way I was just using the buddhist thing as an example.. I don't rag on other people's religion. :thumbsup:
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Why am I worried? Because the majority of people have sacrificed the ability to think. They have childish fairy tales at the center of their lives that lead them to commit atrocities, from gay-bashing to full-fledged 9/11.
You're fooling yourself if you think humanity would be any less violent without religion. If there's one thing I've learned from watching South Part (Science be praised! lulz ), it's that we will always have reason to fight and murder in the name of something greater than us, whether it be god or simply our ideals. Sure many religionists use their faith as a crutch, but some people just aren't as strong-willed as you are and really need that crutch to hold themselves up. If it wasn't some god doing it, it would be something else-- and really, who are you to judge what avenues we use as human beings to provide hope and comfort in our lives? Would you take away a crippled man's wheelchair because you feel he's perfectly capable of getting around without it, because you think you know what's best for him?
Queen, you're so feisty, with a strong spirit, and I love that, truly. But if you really think this confrontational methods you use to explainin your views is going to make some Christian "see the light" somewhere down the road then you are mistaken. Objectively, you have to see that the way you present your case is just as offensive to Christians as the most zealous bible-thumper claiming "you'll burn witch" is to you. The fact that you are intelligent adds little weight to your argument, I'm afraid, because believe it or not, there are people out there who are more intelligent than the both of us combined, proclaiming their faith. I've met some, so I know.
I'd really love to see your spirit used to fight for the right of freedom of choice rather than crucifying Christians for their beliefs, but if you're truly hell-bent on beating religion out of this country then you're going to have to learn a new method. Join me in attempting to open minds peacefully and gently, as folks are so much more susceptible to reason when you're not trying to cram their ideals or your own into their faces.
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Why am I worried? Because the majority of people have sacrificed the ability to think. They have childish fairy tales at the center of their lives that lead them to commit atrocities, from gay-bashing to full-fledged 9/11.
You're fooling yourself if you think humanity would be any less violent without religion. If there's one thing I've learned from watching South Part (Science be praised! lulz ), it's that we will always have reason to fight and murder in the name of something greater than us, whether it be god or simply our ideals. Sure many religionists use their faith as a crutch, but some people just aren't as strong-willed as you are and really need that crutch to hold themselves up. If it wasn't some god doing it, it would be something else-- and really, who are you to judge what avenues we use as human beings to provide hope and comfort in our lives? Would you take away a crippled man's wheelchair because you feel he's perfectly capable of getting around without it, because you think you know what's best for him?
Queen, you're so feisty, with a strong spirit, and I love that, truly. But if you really think this confrontational methods you use to explainin your views is going to make some Christian "see the light" somewhere down the road then you are mistaken. Objectively, you have to see that the way you present your case is just as offensive to Christians as the most zealous bible-thumper claiming "you'll burn witch" is to you. The fact that you are intelligent adds little weight to your argument, I'm afraid, because believe it or not, there are people out there who are more intelligent than the both of us combined, proclaiming their faith. I've met some, so I know.
I'd really love to see your spirit used to fight for the right of freedom of choice rather than crucifying Christians for their beliefs, but if you're truly hell-bent on beating religion out of this country then you're going to have to learn a new method. Join me in attempting to open minds peacefully and gently, as folks are so much more susceptible to reason when you're not trying to cram their ideals or your own into their faces.
Well if you read some of revelation there will be 4 invisible horseman of the apcolyapse(yes I can't spell please laugh at me). The 4 horseman are michael, death, pestilence and war and it's pretty clear that at least 3 of the 4 are galloping right now since there is a lot of war and there's little to no peace. There's the swine flu going on or pestilence and of course people are dying left and right due to all the things I mention oh and lets not forget about food shortages.
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Well if you read some of revelation there will be 4 invisible horseman of the apcolyapse(yes I can't spell please laugh at me).
I do know Revelation, as there isn't anything quite so thrilling as prophesies of doom and fantastical events to get the imagination all fired up. Most of my thoughts on this last book to be included in your holy scriptures is located on the fourth page of this (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=9247.45)thread.
I'm curious why you quoted my post to Queen and started spouting prophesies? I'd like to respond to you but I have no idea what direction you're trying to take this discussion.
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<<You're a hypocrit because you all say that Christians try to force our religion down others throat. Which is exactly what you are doing. You are forcing your religion onto me..>>
Nah, in "real life" (a.k.a. not this forum) I leave Christians alone. Seriously. Because I KNOW one cannot change another person unless they want to change for themselves. ***Atheism is not a religion***
<<Why do you feel the need to convert Christians into being Atheists? That's ridiculus. You may be making people believe there is no God which is just messed up.>>
Again, you are calling atheism a religion; it is the exact opposite of and LACK of religion. Most atheists do not like being called atheists because Christians LOVE to say that it is a religion, and religion is the last thing we want to be associated with. I was a Christian from 2002-2007; I didn't "convert" to atheism. I converted to doing academic research on these religious claims, converted to questioning things that are wrong with religion, converted to thinking for myself, and converted to having the courage to accept that god is a lie invented by man to make us feel better about purpose and death. That is so messed up for me to encourage those things in others, I know! <-- sarcasm
<<Also by saying you believe in peaace and love and everything but then trying to make people doubt their own religion.>>
I never said I believe in peace and love and everything. Your putting words in my mouth proves you gloss over the hard stuff written by posters like Falconer and I, and your knee-jerk reaction is to defend your god at all costs.
<<I may not trust everything that is in the bible exactly only because man wrote it.>>
God would be very disappointed to hear that...it's His Word and is Perfect, so says Christianity...sounds like you are making excuses because you realize there is a lot of awful stuff in the Bible.
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Well if you read some of revelation there will be 4 invisible horseman of the apcolyapse(yes I can't spell please laugh at me).
I do know Revelation, as there isn't anything quite so thrilling as prophesies of doom and fantastical events to get the imagination all fired up. Most of my thoughts on this last book to be included in your holy scriptures is located on the fourth page of this (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=9247.45)thread.
I'm curious why you quoted my post to Queen and started spouting prophesies? I'd like to respond to you but I have no idea what direction you're trying to take this discussion.
@queenofnines: Who are you referring to?
@angel379227: Srry for making you feel bad or something, I just thought prophecy will help some believe. Anyway, there's a GREAT PROGRAM called exodus decoded, EVERYONE should watch that program. Whether your atheist, muslim, hindu, wiccan, agnostic, egyptologist ETC. That program explains the archaelogy, and science of the exodus. BTW, exodus decoded has nothing to do with my denomination.
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You're fooling yourself if you think humanity would be any less violent without religion. If there's one thing I've learned from watching South Part (Science be praised! lulz ), it's that we will always have reason to fight and murder in the name of something greater than us, whether it be god or simply our ideals. Sure many religionists use their faith as a crutch, but some people just aren't as strong-willed as you are and really need that crutch to hold themselves up. If it wasn't some god doing it, it would be something else-- and really, who are you to judge what avenues we use as human beings to provide hope and comfort in our lives? Would you take away a crippled man's wheelchair because you feel he's perfectly capable of getting around without it, because you think you know what's best for him?
I never claimed humanity would be less violent. We don't know. I think there is definitely the chance that some would not take a godless existence well and act out, be selfish, and commit crimes. Or even if god wasn't a factor at all, for many it goes back to the gene and doing anything to survive.
On the other hand, it can't be ignored how much we are holding ourselves back as a species, believing things that aren't true. Also, many people deprive or hold themselves back in life in the name of god, believing that a hard life today is okay because they'll get a heaven for eternity. Lastly, stopping all of the crimes done in the name of religion, both small and big, shouldn't be seen as a mute point because it's assumed or feared that something might replace those crimes.
As far as saying an able-bodied man should be allowed his wheelchair, I have some empathy and then I don't. In theory, I can empathize with the concept, because life can be hard and sometimes those coping mechanisms are necessary. In the long-term, though, it may be making the person weak and altering their quality of life. If they are in a relationship, it can be very damaging against another person for one to have certain "crutches".
As for speaking "nicely", it has to be kept in mind that seemingly blunt-looking words may be read in a tone that is much higher than the author intended. Regardless, in most cases I don't think people should feel that they should have to sugar-coat their words. I don't go around directly calling a specific person an idiot or anything like that (which I've seen plenty of around this forum).
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(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/walksalone11/smileys/snackin.gif)
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For your information I know Atheism is not a religion. But whatever forcing your beliefs (if that makes you feel so much better.) down our throats. I told you already that I am not your "average" christian. I do not go to church. I spent half of my life at a Christian school but I feel that I can praise God at my home. I'm not making up any exuses God himself said "Do not trust men. They will lie and tell untrue stories." Well the bible is written by men, not God himself. He may have influenced much of it but I do believe most is very true but some I think men threw in there. I think you sound so bitter towards the Christian religion. Like you're trying to get payback for something.. It's actually very strange. I think you and all of your little "anti-Christianity" friends should find a useful hobby and maybe a life where you can do good for people and not try to convince them that God isn't real because that's the nonsense you believe.
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I'm not making up any exuses God himself said "Do not trust men. They will lie and tell untrue stories." Well the bible is written by men, not God himself. He may have influenced much of it but I do believe most is very true but some I think men threw in there.
Do you not see the irony in this statement?
I think you and all of your little "anti-Christianity" friends should find a useful hobby and maybe a life where you can do good for people and not try to convince them that God isn't real because that's the nonsense you believe.
Well thanks for judging a person you've never met. How Christian of you. Seriously, how do you know she hasn't done an exponential amount of good deeds compared to your life? How do you know her hobby does not involve rescuing animals or volunteering somewhere? How do you know that convincing people Christianity is ridiculously faulty is a bad thing? Oh wait-- I forgot. That book written by men tells you to, right? She's an atheist. She's evil. She's going to hell. Well I'll let you in on something I've learned from standing back and viewing it all-- never follow a religion that rewards close-mindedness.
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You know what.... were all going to hell for writing about religion in this forum... And where gonna have a "gone to hell" Party!!!!!!!!..Ha HA HA!!!!!!! :bs:
how's about that?
I'll by that for a dollar!
Just kidding!! Hell doesn't exist, but I am sure with the proper equiptment you could drill really far down until you reach the center of the earth, and it would be pretty "Hell-Like"- or like.. freakin' CHINA!!!!!
So, start diggin' folks......
It's a long waaayyyyy doooowwwwnnn! :wave:
But just remember......
" Don't Worry......."
"If there's hell below......Where all Gonna Go!"
(someone in here has to listens to Curtis Mayfield's music, OR Richard Pryor's Comedy........)
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i don't believe in organized religions. they only cause problems. I believe in my own personal relationship with the stellar intelligence that created me.
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On the other hand, it can't be ignored how much we are holding ourselves back as a species, believing things that aren't true. Also, many people deprive or hold themselves back in life in the name of god, believing that a hard life today is okay because they'll get a heaven for eternity. Lastly, stopping all of the crimes done in the name of religion, both small and big, shouldn't be seen as a mute point because it's assumed or feared that something might replace those crimes.
This whole paragraph is pure supposition. It's impossible to claim that the world would be less violent, less deprived, without religion. The closest case study we have of this is China, where over 90% of the population do not believe in any form of higher power whatsoever. Can you honestly say this country is more progressive than ours for it?
Let's not pretend we know what's best for the world just because we've found what's best for us individually. As many reasons as you can come up with for why religion damages society, I can whip out equal reasoning for why it's beneficial. Mind you, I do in my heart feel our species would be better off without organized religion, but I'm not going to profess I know that for certain.
Also, it can't be denied that while a lot of evil has been done in the world as a direct result of the belief in a higher power, there's also been a great many good deed performed as well, so it would be reasonable to assume that without religion both sides of the spectrum would be reduced. Either this or, as I believe, we would continue to find both cases of extreme cruelty and extreme compassion, commuted for our ideals, which we are now free to define as we see fit, rather than by our god.
Again, we just don't know if the world would in fact be a better place without religion, any more than we can assume that some higher power truly doesn't exist, so to presume you know otherwise is placing yourself on a pedestal of wisdom that none here on earth should mount so exuberantly.
To me, a greater hindrance to humanity than religion is this inability we as a species have to "live and let live". I'm of the firm belief that, no matter the faith or lack thereof you have, if we held firm to this ideal above all others, we would have far less atrocities committed in the world, and so less reason to cast blame for them, using their occurrences as ammunition against every other person with whom the perpetrators share a common belief.
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For your information I know Atheism is not a religion. But whatever forcing your beliefs (if that makes you feel so much better.) down our throats. I told you already that I am not your "average" christian. I do not go to church.......some I think men threw in there. I think you sound so bitter towards the Christian religion. Like you're trying to get payback for something..
I don't have beliefs...I have facts. And I'm interpreting your first two sentences as being said in a childish tone (I could be wrong, though).
You're not an "average" Christian? So you're the other kind? The kind that thinks god is a free-for-all buffet that you can pick through to suit your individual taste? Oh goodie!
That kind of believer is perhaps even more infuriating than the strict Bible thumper. They are the people who feel that as long as a person believes in *something*, they're good. They're practically starting their own religion when it comes to their stances on the various issues, because these stances tend to be very loose and invented and based solely on whatever thoughts suit them personally.
If you claim to believe in the god of the Bible, who are you to go against the grain of what your religion requires? You're supposed to think of the Bible as a holy and sacred book, completely inspired by god, and you're supposed to go to church! To act like you are better than these requirements is to fall in the wishy-washy category of "As long as I say I believe in god, I'm set. I can do anything I want, as I long as I believe."
So which parts did god write in the bible, and which parts were made up by scared, Bronze Age humans? Wait, I think I know what you're going to say...anything that goes along with society's current laws on human decency was spoken by god, and anything that's obviously barbaric and cuckoo was written by those silly, god-chosen prophets!
I'm not bitter and I'm certainly not getting "payback". I was fortunate enough not to be raised religiously; I never saw any evidence for this god that some believed in, and god/Christians certainly never approached me like he's/they are supposed to have! I CHOSE to give god a try at an age of consent due to "a traumatic life experience" (that's how so many people get sucked in!). It was a point-blank choice made without evidence, and before you know it, I was brainwashed like the next guy. Fortunately that intelligent part of me didn't die, it was just covered up for awhile, and I had the courage after 5 years to gather my evidence once and for all if there was a god or not. Didn't want to live the rest of my life based on a lie if there wasn't a god; didn't want to burn in hell and yadda yadda if there was!
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To me, a greater hindrance to humanity than religion is this inability we as a species have to "live and let live". I'm of the firm belief that, no matter the faith or lack thereof you have, if we held firm to this ideal above all others, we would have far less atrocities committed in the world, and so less reason to cast blame for them, using their occurrences as ammunition against every other person with whom the perpetrators share a common belief.
Being reasonable with the current state of the world, I think "live and let live" is a good policy. However, it is problematic when you throw in the part about Christians being called to save people like me from hell. Christians *are* supposed to be doing that, but many give up way too easily or don't try at all. They don't want to ruffle feathers or be put in an uncomfortable situation, but that's exactly what god says they are supposed to be doing. It seems pretty selfish and un-godly to let so many people perish without a strong, solid fight. Unless that's what god wanted and designed; some of us are born destined for heaven, others for hell. Thanks god.
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Well considering she seems to always be in this forum ragging on Christianity that is atleast one of her hobbys.
Oh and have you not been following my posts? I mean seriously of course I see the irony in that I was stating why I do not believe every single word in the entire bible. I mean I think maybe the original bible was perfect and told the entire truth but when people got a hold of it they changed it. They added things and took stuff out. I don't care what any bible claims it's not the original. I love God and I know he is there and I praise him when I am at home I do not go to church... I don't feel that I need to go there to praise him. I am FAR from close minded. My brother is a college professor in ancient religions. He has told me about every religion you can think of and I've looked into so many religions and beliefs. Christianity is the only thing that makes since to me. But I never tried to force my beliefs on my brother or anyone for that matter. I think everyone has their own opinion. Basically all I've been trying to say throughout all these posts is all of you Atheists need to seriously respect other peoples rligion. You wouldn't like it if I were to say "You're going to hell and you need Jesus." now would you? Okay then I don't wanna hear how you keep saying my beliefs are BS. Just seriously keep that to yourself.
And for Queenofnines: No I do not think I'm better than anyone else and I don't pick and chose anything. As I said above people have changed so much of the bible it's hard to follow it. I believe a lot is very true but seriously how much have men taken out or added over the years? Why is there so many versions of the bible? Shouldn't there only be one? If I could find the real original bible I would follow everything in it. Hmm oh and is that a childish tone I hear in your second sentence?
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I believe that each person has a right to his or her own opinion and should not try to force it down anyones throat. I do think however that you need to do a full and complete research on both subjects before you make a final decision. I shudder to think what if youve made the wrong :( :o :-[choice.
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it is wrong 2 take away and add to the Bible. The King James Version is Real Thing :peace: :heart: :wave:
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it is wrong 2 take away and add to the Bible. The King James Version is Real Thing :peace: :heart: :wave:
Lol so they say... I doubt they left everyting. I have also heard they added stuff but I guess we will never know unfortunately. :-[
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it is wrong 2 take away and add to the Bible. The King James Version is Real Thing :peace: :heart: :wave:
Amen brother and from that they have proven the bible. It doesn't matter what people believe it mattes what is true. If they don't believe in gravity they are still going to be affected by it wither they believe in it or not. There is too much proof for God and if they ignore it just as Romans 1 says they are without excuse! They want proof they can look here www.wayofthemaster.com www.av1611.org/hell.html www.av1611.org/amazing.html www.biblebelievers.org www.AnswersinGenesis.com (excelent Creation Science website)
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it is wrong 2 take away and add to the Bible. The King James Version is Real Thing :peace: :heart: :wave:
Amen brother and from that they have proven the bible. It doesn't matter what people believe it mattes what is true. If they don't believe in gravity they are still going to be affected by it wither they believe in it or not. There is too much proof for God and if they ignore it just as Romans 1 says they are without excuse! They want proof they can look here www.wayofthemaster.com www.av1611.org/hell.html www.av1611.org/amazing.html www.biblebelievers.org www.AnswersinGenesis.com (excelent Creation Science website)
That is a great way to put it. :)
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it is wrong 2 take away and add to the Bible. The King James Version is Real Thing
They did that in the King James version plenty of times.
Amen brother and from that they have proven the bible. It doesn't matter what people believe it mattes what is true. If they don't believe in gravity they are still going to be affected by it wither they believe in it or not. There is too much proof for God and if they ignore it just as Romans 1 says they are without excuse! They want proof they can look here www.wayofthemaster.com www.av1611.org/hell.html www.av1611.org/amazing.html www.biblebelievers.org www.AnswersinGenesis.com (excelent Creation Science website)
This is coming from one of the worst extremists on this forum. Everything in your post is illogical or false. You cannot put the belief of gravity on the same shelf as the belief in god. One you can actually interact with and can be easily test- it is a belief. It stands within the confines of reality. Believing in god is faith-based and is not scientific in the least. How your sources are from creation-science websites (especially AnswersinGenesis-- the WORST misinformed site on science) further proves your ignorance and naivety on the subject.
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What I got out of that was everyone is affected by gravity wheather they want to be or not. Just like everyone will be affected by God in the end.
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Amen brother and from that they have proven the bible. It doesn't matter what people believe it mattes what is true. If they don't believe in gravity they are still going to be affected by it wither they believe in it or not. There is too much proof for God and if they ignore it just as Romans 1 says they are without excuse! They want proof they can look here www.wayofthemaster.com www.av1611.org/hell.html www.av1611.org/amazing.html www.biblebelievers.org www.AnswersinGenesis.com (excelent Creation Science website)
I perused each of those links carefully and found not one shred of this "proof" you speak of.
And Queen of Nines, you're a pretty awesome person to converse with on this matter. I think we're on the same level on a lot of issues, we just approach and execute in different ways. I've yet to respond to your last post, but I'm trying to locate any evidence to support your claim that Christ told his followers to save us all from hell. I do understand how you can reach that conclusion, as many of the sects which sprang up after the death of Jesus preached this message, but to me that's no evidence that it's the way he meant for his subjugates. Again, I think you're confusing the way Christianity should be represented and the way that it is currently.
I do agree that most of the books gathered together to become the New Testament point towards this type of thinking and practice, but neither you nor I believe for a second that what man has written or created is in any way divine, so we can't claim that what spurns from these are the supposed will of any deity that may or may not exist.
The King James Version is Real Thing
See Queen, this is when it's appropriate to call someone an idiot.
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it is wrong 2 take away and add to the Bible. The King James Version is Real Thing :peace: :heart: :wave:
Amen brother and from that they have proven the bible. It doesn't matter what people believe it mattes what is true. If they don't believe in gravity they are still going to be affected by it wither they believe in it or not. There is too much proof for God and if they ignore it just as Romans 1 says they are without excuse! They want proof they can look here www.wayofthemaster.com www.av1611.org/hell.html www.av1611.org/amazing.html www.biblebelievers.org www.AnswersinGenesis.com (excelent Creation Science website)
That is a great way to put it. :)
If the king james version is the real thing why does it mistranslate the word paska to the pagan celtic holiday easter at Acts 12:4?
Also almost every bible including king james mistranslates the words sheol, hades and gehenna to the word hell, thus causing much confusion.
Even king james has god's name, Exodus 6:3, Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2, 26:4, Genesis 22:14, Exodus 17:15, Judges 6:24
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
Everyone is equal under God and equally sinful and corrupt and need a savior. We who are true worshippers of Jesus Christ do not bow down to statues those are catholics and they are lost! We worship God who is spirit and became flesh anddied for our sins who is omnipotent omnitient omnipresent. The creato of this earth who is existant in his very creation. His Tri unity is even shown in space (time space matter) the atom (celerons nuetrons electrons) and the human body (body soul spirit) We worship the creator who are truly saved. Problem is most are fools and either don't believe in the true God or create a false god to worship! Puppets of satan. So if you don't believe your just like most of the world who is lost and dead in sin and are a fool!
Psalms 14:1 (KJV)
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Your blinded by the things of this world so you do have a god. Everyone does they just don't realize they worship a false idol and in essence they are worshipping satan the ruler of this earth. They are like their father the devil rebelling against the creator and Father God by hating his word and abiding in unbelief and its going to end in death.
2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV)
in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
But the beautiful thing is this that even though you are a fool dead in your sin cut off from God by your wicked transgressions of his law as all men are from birth. Even though you are an enemy of God as scriptures saith a child of wrath Christ Jesus still died for you to be reconciled. For whosoever would turn from their sins to God they would be saved! He is drawing all men unto him!
John 12:32 (KJV)
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This is the gospel friend all have sinned
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
In fact you were born in sin!
Psalm 53 (King James Version)
Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 53
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.
5There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.
6Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
So your so cut off from God in your sin blinded by satan the god of this earth you cannot see the light. Yet God is still drawing you unto him. By his word because
Romans 10:17(KJV)
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
For one you must understand that faith is not having hope in a statue or something you can see on this earth to put your trust into or else it is not faith!
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
In order to receive this salvation there must be this faith. This hope for what we cannot see the God who has made all things.
Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
See God wants faith. He wants faithful people. If God were standing in front of everyone doing miracles as he did in the old testament on the mountain with his miracles and extravagant happenings it would be easy to believe. In fact his evidence is all around even from our conscience and so there eally is no excuse to ignore him. I have seen miracles but you don't need a healing miracle to know God is here the miracle of birth is divine proof of God. Even doctors admit every birth is a miracle. It's also an evidence of his creation he creates the child a living soul inside the womb. The bible says people who don't believe are wilfully ignoring God's sings and his warnings just like when Noah built the ark (yes they have found parts of the ark and have proven it's existence and the global flood) Even when God was doing those miracles in the Old Testament days there were still wicked complainers and men who perished from God's wrath because of their wickedness. Prime example is Pharoah who saw the plagues and miracles but his heart was hardened against God! So it's not evidence of God that is going to save you it is knowing God and surrendering to who he is and his will! The reason you and the world denies Christ is because he is HOLY and JUST and they are WICKED and SELFISH! You have a self centered creation rebellion against a sovereign God who gave them their free will to do so.
2 Peter 3:1-6
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
See this is God's word which armies have tried to destroy and yet is till the number 1 seller ever! All men are dawn to it yet many reject it refuse it and to their own destruction corrupt it! Jesus already in his word refuted all these liars and you included. He also made the way for your salvation should you choose to change your mind to turn from your sin to his mecy to his holiness to his sovereignty. Many today who call themselves Christians and I tell you most just as Jesus did he said the way is narrow and few be there that go by it. Because these crooks are trying to get in the back door of heaven or a window or some other way then total submission to God! Some other way then the blood that Jesus Christ shed on the cross which is our atonement. Some other way then the rising again of Jesus Christ on the third day showing he is Lord and that we too can rise from this death that sin brought forth! They will go to hell right along with you and anyone else who turns from God's word and his salvation and lives after satan the prince of this world. Who lives after their own temporary selfish desires! Churchs as well as utter dejectors of religion. You need to be made alive by Christ your dead already friend! You cannot see the light. But thanks be to God (and I am going to let you read this your self!) that if you believe Jesus has come in the flesh to save you from your sins to light up your darkened soul you can and will be saved! John 1 Explains how God became man to light men and as you read through his word by faith(Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.) then he too will seethe light and receive this amazing grace. Once you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you shall be saved! All that call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved!
Romans 5:5-21(KJV)
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
But if you do not you are going to pay the consequence of your own sins!
Revelation 20:10-15
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:1-8 (KJV)
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
THEY HAVE FOUND HELL! ITS NOT A MYTH FRIEND DON'T DEJECT CHRIST ITS NOT WORTH IT FOR YOUR TEMPORARY SIN!
WWW.AV1611.ORG/HELL.HTML
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^^^^ tl;dr but thnx.
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Don't let these Anti-Christs and Anti-God's get to you. Don't let them upset you. They are against God! They only want to believe what they can see, hear and touch; anything else is ignorant, illogical, delusional, irrational, nonsensical....
Anything these self proclaimed atheists are saying or believing and whatever are all the things I have thought at one time or another through DOUBT.
Quit posting the same stuff over and over. You are offering nothing new to the table.
When you can type in something different and New, then I will listen. Otherwise, DUH, I thought that too at one time or another. :peace: :heart:
Speaking of adding nothing new...
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THEY HAVE FOUND HELL! ITS NOT A MYTH FRIEND DON'T DEJECT CHRIST ITS NOT WORTH IT FOR YOUR TEMPORARY SIN!
That's all you need to read hahaha
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THEY HAVE FOUND HELL! ITS NOT A MYTH FRIEND DON'T DEJECT CHRIST ITS NOT WORTH IT FOR YOUR TEMPORARY SIN!
That's all you need to read hahaha
Yeah that's about all I read. I had a good chuckle and then brushed him off as mentally handicapped, the poor fella.
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Amen brother and from that they have proven the bible. It doesn't matter what people believe it mattes what is true. If they don't believe in gravity they are still going to be affected by it wither they believe in it or not. There is too much proof for God and if they ignore it just as Romans 1 says they are without excuse! They want proof they can look here www.wayofthemaster.com www.av1611.org/hell.html www.av1611.org/amazing.html www.biblebelievers.org www.AnswersinGenesis.com (excelent Creation Science website)
I perused each of those links carefully and found not one shred of this "proof" you speak of.
And Queen of Nines, you're a pretty awesome person to converse with on this matter. I think we're on the same level on a lot of issues, we just approach and execute in different ways. I've yet to respond to your last post, but I'm trying to locate any evidence to support your claim that Christ told his followers to save us all from hell. I do understand how you can reach that conclusion, as many of the sects which sprang up after the death of Jesus preached this message, but to me that's no evidence that it's the way he meant for his subjugates. Again, I think you're confusing the way Christianity should be represented and the way that it is currently.
I do agree that most of the books gathered together to become the New Testament point towards this type of thinking and practice, but neither you nor I believe for a second that what man has written or created is in any way divine, so we can't claim that what spurns from these are the supposed will of any deity that may or may not exist.
The King James Version is Real Thing
See Queen, this is when it's appropriate to call someone an idiot.
YOU ARE A LIAR IT DOES NOT TAKE 1 MINUTE TO LOOK AT 5 SITES FULL OF ARTICLES!
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YOU ARE A LIAR IT DOES NOT TAKE 1 MINUTE TO LOOK AT 5 SITES FULL OF ARTICLES!
Does this site also contain proof that 30 minutes is actually the equivalent of 1? :o Poor fella. Someone find this kid a helmet.
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Lets read the rules!
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http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=12500.0
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Lets read the rules!
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NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
C'mon Jerry don't go!!!
As long as you are here rep'n Christianity I don't have to post a word.
....and I wont even call you a hypocrite for calling someone a liar then saying you are leaving then immediately coming back and posting again.
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HAHA. Really. Talk about beating a dead horse to death!
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This topic is awesome.
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This is my first post to this forum. First of all Religion is man made. For those who do not believe in a creator of earth and the sun, moon and other planets and galaxies----YOU MUST BE TOTALY BRAIN DEAD----EINSTEIN FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT AND IN THE END CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE BIG BANG THEORY COULD NOT WORK AND THERE WAS AN INTELLIGENT BEING THAT CREATED ALL.
I am no longer a member of any church or religious orginization for over 30 years. After all, who is man to think that he could totally comprehend such an intelligent and awesome being?? It is impossible with our little bitty finite minds to comprehend the infinite. The religions all just play church with whatever traditions have been handed down to them, and/or all that their little pea brains can comprehend of GOD.
REALLY IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IF YOU BELIEVE OR NOT, YOU ALL WILL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF GOD ONE DAY.
ALSO CHRIST IS COMING BACK TO THIS EARTH TO SET UP HIS KINGDOM AND RULE FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. IT IS WHEN HE RETURNS THAT EVRY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.
I am not losing one minute of sleep worrying about wheather you believe or not. it is entirely up to you. You are responsiable for you and your children. Do your own research and praying. Have you ever thought about this "WHAT IF I AM WRONG??"
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(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/walksalone11/image006.gif)
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I am not losing one minute of sleep worrying about wheather you believe or not. it is entirely up to you. You are responsiable for you and your children. Do your own research and praying. Have you ever thought about this "WHAT IF I AM WRONG??"
Yes indeed, what if. I assume you don't adhere to popularized doctrine, so you must be aware that the belief in hell as a place of eternal torment is completely falsified and has no place in Christian scripture. What then should we be fearful of, precisely?
Also, speaking in caps does not add weight to your argument, but rather against it.
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You wouldn't like it if I were to say "You're going to hell and you need Jesus." now would you?
I could care less if someone says that to me because neither statement is true.
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What I got out of that was everyone is affected by gravity wheather they want to be or not. Just like everyone will be affected by God in the end.
No, you cannot make that correlation...because gravity is provable and god is not.
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Funny thing is even the Darwin worshiping cult leaders admitted they dejected the truth because they did not want to accept the moral oppositions to their life!
You do know you're part of a cult, right? By definition? And people don't worship Charles Darwin. They study his findings and hyptheses. Like how one could study Newton and gravity.
They dejected the truth because they did not want to accept the moral oppositions to their life! BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO FORNICATE!
So I assume you suffer from an ISD disorder then? Lol jk...seriously though, I just watched your myspace video of you shouting in the streets at night. I'm not trying to make you feel bad but this is far from normal behavior-- definately on the negative side of the fence. I know you probably won't listen to me because "I'm a wolf and not a sheep", but you have a major issue that needs tending to and I would highly suggest you seek a doctor for this type of behavior. I apologize for ever making fun of you as I am truly sorry for the obvious social disorder you have. Please get better.
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YOU MUST BE TOTALY BRAIN DEAD----EINSTEIN FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT AND IN THE END CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE BIG BANG THEORY COULD NOT WORK AND THERE WAS AN INTELLIGENT BEING THAT CREATED ALL.
No he didn't.
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. "
Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954
who is man to think that he could totally comprehend such an intelligent and awesome being?? It is impossible with our little bitty finite minds to comprehend the infinite.
We see eye-to-eye on this atleast. Cool.
I am not losing one minute of sleep worrying about wheather you believe or not. it is entirely up to you. You are responsiable for you and your children. Do your own research and praying. Have you ever thought about this "WHAT IF I AM WRONG??"
What if you're wrong? You've wasted your life carrying a needless burden then. I hate to point it out but you're being a bit hypocritcal knowing we are incapable of grasping the concept of god and yet you believe the standard stories in Christian doctrines on what he'll do. You've defined the undefinable.
God is provable and I can prove there is one
Shyuddup, troll.
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I perused each of those links carefully and found not one shred of this "proof" you speak of.
And Queen of Nines, you're a pretty awesome person to converse with on this matter. I think we're on the same level on a lot of issues, we just approach and execute in different ways. I've yet to respond to your last post, but I'm trying to locate any evidence to support your claim that Christ told his followers to save us all from hell.
Heh, I remember being faithful to those sites when I was a Christian! Allow me to add to the mix for Christian "proof": http://fillthevoid.org/Tracts/Therealityofhell/the-reality-of-hell.html and http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/
Thank you, angel, that means a lot. May I ask how/why you believe in god, when you seem to have your head on straight about some of the things that are wrong with religion?
I've been thinking for a few days now that you sound like a person that could have the courage to really investigate if god exists or not. In order to be successful in getting away from a religious lifestyle, one has to WANT to know why atheists are convinced there's not a god and yearn for decisive truth once and for all. You have to realize it's not a decision that most non-theists made lightly or at the drop of a hat (contrary to Christians thinking it's just the devil who has us or something). I was actually quite shocked the day I found out there wasn't a god, because I truly did believe just as much as many of the Christians on this forum. It's a weird feeling to suddenly know that there isn't a deity looking out for you, prayer is useless in life, and death is the end. But you can get over it.
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
- Matt. 28:19-20 (NIV)
It may not say specifically "convince people to believe in god because of hell", but Christians *are* supposed to witness, and the hell card is part of their best arsenal for scaring people into believing.
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Funny thing is even the Darwin worshiping cult leaders admitted they dejected the truth because they did not want to accept the moral oppositions to their life! BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO FORNICATE! I am not always on if anyone wants to see more of what the bible says they can check out those sites or open up their KJV bible and pray to God and he will speak directly to them within them! These haters are just wicked wolfs no sheep's clothing just wolves they love the genocide America has going on killing off all these bibles. They love the wicked immorality and animal like sex and drunkardness reviling and all other wicked things they are partaking in. They love it!
I don't do it, but there is nothing wrong with fornicating, as long as it is between consenting parties. Abortion should remain legal; it is more concerning that so many women are irresponsible when it comes to birth control (obviously I don't mean the ones that got raped, mind you). There is nothing wrong with "animal-like sex"...again, as long as it's between consenting parties. As for alcohol, it is only wrong when it leads to violence or the risk of violence (driving).
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REALLY IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IF YOU BELIEVE OR NOT, YOU ALL WILL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF GOD ONE DAY.
ALSO CHRIST IS COMING BACK TO THIS EARTH TO SET UP HIS KINGDOM AND RULE FOR A THOUSAND YEARS. IT IS WHEN HE RETURNS THAT EVRY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.
I am not losing one minute of sleep worrying about wheather you believe or not. it is entirely up to you...Do your own research and praying. Have you ever thought about this "WHAT IF I AM WRONG??"
Hmm, here we have another person who acts like they are better than church and religious teachers. But then you quote claims from the Bible and what most of your fellow Christians believe. I'm confused.
And I did think "What if I am wrong?"...as a Christian. Ha! I have done my own research, the difference being I was brave and open-minded about it and did not rely on sh*tty, Christian-based website "sources" in attempt to confirm my religious security blanket.
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It may not say specifically "convince people to believe in god because of hell", but Christians *are* supposed to witness, and the hell card is part of their best arsenal for scaring people into believing.
Yes, this is what I find most abhorrent about the way some Christians witness, but what many of them don't realize is that this belief is actually more ammunition against god than it is for, as I've known quite a few people, myself included, that turned away from Christianity because of the hideousness in which some portray God-- this fatherly being who is supposedly OF love and yet is capable of such extreme and unforgiving cruelty. This can be likened to the prophet Mohamed using fear of the sword as a means to convert dissidents to Islam. Both methods are equally disgusting and primitive, so we're in agreement on that.
May I ask how/why you believe in god, when you seem to have your head on straight about some of the things that are wrong with religion?
My belief is not that we have some personal deity sheltering and tending to our spiritual well-beings, just to be clear. My spirituality revolves around this certainty that we all need something to believe in-- yes, even atheists. We're all struggling to understand and, since we're all different, we all interpret what we feel our hearts and minds are trying to tell us in many different ways.
My beliefs are difficult to explain because they're constantly "evolving", as I like to consider it. This is why I can't so easily dismiss other people's beliefs, because we're all reaching for the same thing, though we take our separate paths to reach it.
Once more, it's been a pleasure. Hopefully we'll disagree again some time.
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1.) It was said earlier that Christians *are* supposed to be witnessing, but many give up way too easily or don't try at all. They don't want to ruffle feathers or be put in an uncomfortable situation, but that's exactly what god says they are supposed to be doing. Back "in the day", that was said because times were different and the only way people would hear of Jesus was if his disciples & followers "spread the word"/witnessed. In this day and age with missionaries, radios, tv's, & now computers going into corners of the earth "where no man has heard the Word before"...most everyone has heard. Witnessing doesn't mean constantly shoving religion in someone elses face "when they already KNOW". Most Christians SHOULD be able to have others look at their lives, the example they set and have their life's example be their best witness. 2.) Not to single anyone out because it was mentioned more than once, things like "being a Christian is living a burden", "what if Christians find out they ARE WRONG" and "also, many people deprive or hold themselves back in life in the name of god, believing that a hard life today is okay because they'll get a heaven for eternity." I haven't found living a Christian life to be burden-some at all. There isn't one thing in the Bible that God said to do or not do that will KILL a person if they obey. There isn't one thing in the Bible that God said to do or not do that is IMPOSSIBLE. I have found that by obeying God, it has made my life even better as I have avoided alot of heartache, grief and bitterness that typically comes with making life's tempting wrong choices. (If anyone thinks that the outcomes of life's wrong choices is "just life"...then choosing God's way DOES make ones life better because you avoid alot of the bad and what is so bad about that?) 3.) Churches & religious teachers---there's no such thing as a perfect church or a perfect religious teacher. There are false teachings and false prophets and every religion can have them, that's why it's important to know what and why you believe what you do and ALWAYS check to make sure you have the BEST sources for believing what you do. :thumbsup:
Yep, I agree with everything you say except the heaven part but that's for another debate ;D. As for religious organizations not being perfect of course how can they they're human are they? However a tree that produces good fruit is better then a tree that produces bad fruit. So judge the organizations actions and not the people.
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Wow Queen. Why are you tryiong to convince angel to not be a Christian? ( Which is exactly what you are doing)
That is just wrong. Let him/her believe in what they wish. I mean seriously it's almost pathetic how you are shoving your opinions/beliefs down their throat.
Anyway I'm curious now exactly why are you so sure Christianity is completely false? I mean seriously I've heard everything and nothing has made me give up my faith.
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:peace: :heart: :wave: 2 every 1 Good or Bad God loves us all :heart: I t is our choice :thumbsup: Heaven or Hell ???
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Wow Queen. Why are you tryiong to convince angel to not be a Christian?
Come again?
Falconer am I really a Troll? Or you just don't know what to say to me? Why have you singled me out? Why won't you quit? I am just typing in the same manner I have been typed to. If you look back I didn't do it first. I was called stupid and ignorant and an idiot and more long before I started calling others that.
I don't know how many times I have reported you for calling me a Troll or if anything will be done about it but I would appreciate it if you would stop :peace:
You posted so much nonsense in the past concerning your extreme views on God and Christianity only to come in later and say "Haha, I can't believe you people actually thought I believe in God. I just say that to mess with you". Yet you still come in here chunkin holy water and screaming for us to repent. You've repeated gibberish such as "Go FUGG yourself" at least ten times in different topics but then erase them so the admin team won't find out. You delete all the negative bullcrap you type when arguing just so you can say "Look back, I did nothing wrong!". You are by very definition a troll, and not even a good one.
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Thank you, angel, that means a lot. May I ask how/why you believe in god, when you seem to have your head on straight about some of the things that are wrong with religion?
I've been thinking for a few days now that you sound like a person that could have the courage to really investigate if god exists or not. In order to be successful in getting away from a religious lifestyle, one has to WANT to know why atheists are convinced there's not a god and yearn for decisive truth once and for all. You have to realize it's not a decision that most non-theists made lightly or at the drop of a hat (contrary to Christians thinking it's just the devil who has us or something). I was actually quite shocked the day I found out there wasn't a god, because I truly did believe just as much as many of the Christians on this forum. It's a weird feeling to suddenly know that there isn't a deity looking out for you, prayer is useless in life, and death is the end. But you can get over it.
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
- Matt. 28:19-20 (NIV)
It may not say specifically "convince people to believe in god because of hell", but Christians *are* supposed to witness, and the hell card is part of their best arsenal for scaring people into believing.
Yeah that definitely sounds like she is trying to convince you to not be Christian.
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No, I say look back and you will see that I never started it with people. I was just defending myself. I almost thought if I took the side of atheist then it wouldn't happen anymore but that didn't work. I really would appreciate it if you would stop also because you are another one.
Because, as I stated previously, you will promptly erase every offensive posts you make so that the administration will be under the impression that you are just some sweet innocent bystander being picked on by bullies. You may fool them but I know better. If you want to be treated with respect then you should consider first conducting yourself in a manner which warrants it.
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Yeah that definitely sounds like she is trying to convince you to not be Christian.
I'm a defender of Christianity, though likely not in the way you interpret it, but I am most certainly not a Christian. Thanks for your concern though. :)
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Thank you, angel, that means a lot. May I ask how/why you believe in god, when you seem to have your head on straight about some of the things that are wrong with religion?
Well maybe you should tell Miss Queen the same thing. Because it seems she also thought you were a Christian. And she was trying pretty hard to convince you not to be
( Even though you already weren't.)
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Well maybe you should tell Miss Queen the same thing. Because it seems she also thought you were a Christian. And she was trying pretty hard to convince you not to be
( Even though you already weren't.)
I did, directly after she commented on that actually, but it was one of my long-winded posts so I'm not surprised you didn't catch it. 8)
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Well maybe you should tell Miss Queen the same thing. Because it seems she also thought you were a Christian. And she was trying pretty hard to convince you not to be
( Even though you already weren't.)
I did, directly after she commented on that actually, but it was one of my long-winded posts so I'm not surprised you didn't catch it. 8)
Oh okay yeah I must have missed that one. I do think it is very interesting how you defend Christianity but do not believe in it though. What exactly is your religion? Or are you an Atheist?
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Or are you an Atheist?
To me Atheism is just another religion, though I know I'm likely to offend many with that comment. I'm aware that by definition it is not, but what I find most horrendous about faiths is their absolute certainty that theirs is the only right or logical conclusion. We call ours a progressive society in terms of our thinking processes and yet we shut our minds to every other spiritual teaching once we've discovered what we feel is the only valid answer. This is what defines religion to me-- this and any school of thought in which you would have to put an "ism" after.
So no, I'm not an Atheist. Just call me Angel. It's my name in truth, but also my "calling", of sorts.
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Or are you an Atheist?
To me Atheism is just another religion, though I know I'm likely to offend many with that comment. I'm aware that by definition it is not, but what I find most horrendous about faiths is their absolute certainty that theirs is the only right or logical conclusion. We call ours a progressive society in terms of our thinking processes and yet we shut our minds to every other spiritual teaching once we've discovered what we feel is the only valid answer. This is what defines religion to me-- this and any school of thought in which you would have to put an "ism" after.
So no, I'm not an Atheist. Just call me Angel. It's my name in truth, but also my "calling", of sorts.
That was kinda hard to grasp but I see your point of view.
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Yeah that definitely sounds like she is trying to convince you to not be Christian.
I never claimed I thought angel was a Christian. In fact, I already knew angel wasn't based on what has been said in previous posts. The only reason the term "Christian" is being thrown around here is because most of us are Americans. If this site was based elsewhere in the world, we'd be saying Muslim or Hindu because that is what we would have been born into ;) . A religion by any other name is still...religion. The vast majority are based on a belief in "god", and that's what I'm against (not Christians specifically).
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1.) Back "in the day", that was said because times were different and the only way people would hear of Jesus was if his disciples & followers "spread the word"/witnessed. In this day and age with missionaries, radios, tv's, & now computers going into corners of the earth "where no man has heard the Word before"...most everyone has heard. Witnessing doesn't mean constantly shoving religion in someone elses face "when they already KNOW". Most Christians SHOULD be able to have others look at their lives, the example they set and have their life's example be their best witness. 2.) Not to single anyone out because it was mentioned more than once, things like "being a Christian is living a burden", "what if Christians find out they ARE WRONG" There isn't one thing in the Bible that God said to do or not do that will KILL a person if they obey. There isn't one thing in the Bible that God said to do or not do that is IMPOSSIBLE. I have found that by obeying God, it has made my life even better as I have avoided alot of heartache, grief and bitterness that typically comes with making life's tempting wrong choices. (If anyone thinks that the outcomes of life's wrong choices is "just life"...then choosing God's way DOES make ones life better because you avoid alot of the bad and what is so bad about that?)
1) That sounds like a man-made excuse. Guess I missed the clause in the Bible that says: "Witness...until the 21st century, when everyone will pretty much have technology and you won't have to."
2) "There isn't one thing in the Bible that God said to do or not do that will KILL a person if they obey." That is quite ironic for you to say, as there are a boatload of verses where god will kill you (or you're supposed to kill others, including your children) if you DON'T obey!
Just because you believe in god does not make you immune from becoming addicted to *bleep*, beating your children, racking up credit card debt, etc. Being a non-believer is sometimes more of a burden, actually, because it is then that you have to stare at life's harsh realities and be strong enough on your own. It's so much easier to cling to feel-good hopes of heaven when you're staring the pointlessness of life in the face; it's so much easier to assume that you have all of the time in the world to live, that you have no chance of being murdered or dying in a horrible plane crash because "god is looking out for you"; it's so much easier to think you can pray and get your hard problems magically solved or that even if everyone else disowns you, god at least forgives you for all of your mistakes!
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To me Atheism is just another religion, though I know I'm likely to offend many with that comment. I'm aware that by definition it is not, but what I find most horrendous about faiths is their absolute certainty that theirs is the only right or logical conclusion.
I agree, it is not right in practice to slam the door shut on being educated about the options. But...logically...there is either a god/force/spirit, or there isn't. There can't be more than those two basic realities. Most people spend all of their time and effort trying to find the religion that is "right" or suits them, completely ignoring that there is another possible reality that god may not exist at all. That is what religious people are being close-minded about, because they are so scared of that being true that they completely overlook it as even being an available reality.
I don't feel I am close-minded because again, I was a full-fledged Christian myself just 3 short years ago. And unlike most people, I CHOSE to be a Christian. I was technically an atheist before being a Christian, although I did not have any of the facts I do now as to why a godless existence is correct.
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I don't feel I am close-minded because again, I was a full-fledged Christian myself just 3 short years ago. And unlike most people, I CHOSE to be a Christian. I was technically an atheist before being a Christian, although I did not have any of the facts I do now as to why a godless existence is correct.
I don't think you're closed-minded at all, but even I feel my proverbial door can open wider.
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Falconer am I really a Troll? Or you just don't know what to say to me? Why have you singled me out? Why won't you quit?
Troll- Unwelcome, offensive, stupid or abusive commenter on a blog, chat room, user group or BBS.
You're lucky I'm even responding to you, troll. Angel said everything that needed to be said about you and I thank him for that-- he said it better than I could have.
No, I say look back and you will see that I never started it with people. I was just defending myself. I almost thought if I took the side of atheist then it wouldn't happen anymore but that didn't work. I really would appreciate it if you would stop also because you are another one.
I am not like this normally but I have never been attacked like this before and not really sure how to defend myself. I would ignore it but I am kinda worried that someone on here may know me and I don't like how I am being treated and talked about.
Don't play the victim here. You know what you've already done and your child-like posts won't fool anyone but the ones that haven't seen your offensive (deleted) posts. Good job trying to make atheists look bad by looking like they were trying to convert you just so you would fit in. Get back under your bridge.
"No one should be protected from the effects of their own stupidity."
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That's OK. God believes in YOU! ;)
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Yeah that definitely sounds like she is trying to convince you to not be Christian.
I never claimed I thought angel was a Christian.
Maybe you should reread your post ;)
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Now now, ladies, there's no need to fight over me.
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EVERYONE, Believer or not---is only ONE JESUS away from Heaven (or Hell, depending on how one wants to look at it) con't...
Only Jesus? Because last time I glanced there's tons of stories about these saviors and rule-makers who will reward you eternally. Not just Jesus. What makes him so special besides a book (which a lot of these other saviors have) and a following? Having a large group on your side does not make your side right. Proof? The Twilight series sucks.
The difference between Believers & non-Believers is that the non-Believers sin because that is what they are supposed to do---they don't need to make an effort not to. Believers have been delivered from sin----they can and do still sin but they do it because they WANT to...not because they have to or they don't know any better.
Many non-believers help set the infrastructure we all take for granted each day. Believers and non-believers sin all the damn time. In my lifetime I have seen more believers sin more horribly than non-believers. I kid you not.
To be on God's side is to be on the "winning team".
"Believe in a jealous genocidal toying child-killer. Who loves you. Get on the winning team!"
no matter how bad life gets---God is ALWAYS on your side and will pull you through
Many Believers do die horrible deaths, many have been killed & tortured for their beliefs. They die in airplane crashes, car crashes, fires
**LOGIC CIRCUITRY ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE**
Attempting override. Loading "C:/godismysterious.exe"
**COP OUT ERROR DETECTED**
Believers don't fear death because to leave the earth is simply to go be with Jesus which is where they yearn to be anyway.
"Muslim extremists don't fear death because to leave the earth is simply to go be with Mohammad and 72 virgins which is where they yearn to be anyway"
I'm sure you've heard of a saying that goes "There aren't any atheists in fox holes". Now please think about this saying outside of the christian mindset for a minute. Done? Does it not lead you to one conclusions that people believe that JC and god are just pillows to comfort one in times of life-threatening situations? This is a bit of an extreme example (I'm not putting christians on the same stand with terrorism here), but they do share a similar closed off mindset.
And everyone fears death.
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What makes him so special besides a book (which a lot of these other saviors have) and a following? Having a large group on your side does not make your side right. Proof? The Twilight series sucks.
You sir have won the internet.
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Where exactly in the Bible are these "boatload of verses" you're talking about?
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death." (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
"You should not let a sorceress live." (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
"A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
"A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death." (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
"They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
"If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through." (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
"But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst." (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
"The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death." (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Bratty Children
"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces." (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
Kill Sons of Sinners
"Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants." (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
...These are just a few of the MANY examples of god wanting death for people who disobey.
I don't understand how believers can read this stuff plain as day and make excuses for it. Saying "that was meant for a different time" is not true because Jesus said you are not to take away any word from the law! And anyway, that kind of *bleep* should not be in a "holy" book, spoken by a "loving, just" god under ANY circumstances. And if you are in the camp that thinks such horrible verses are just metaphors or something, you are extremely ignorant. I thought you saw the Bible as an "instructions for life" and history book, no?
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Saying "that was meant for a different time" is not true because Jesus said you are not to take away any word from the law!
I may be mistaken, but I don't believe there's any scriptural evidence that Jesus himself ever said this. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though.
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The difference between Believers & non-Believers is that the non-Believers sin because that is what they are supposed to do---they don't need to make an effort not to. Believers have been delivered from sin----they can and do still sin but they do it because they WANT to...not because they have to or they don't know any better. Being a Believer doesn't mean "life is all cushy now because God is looking out for you"...Believers don't fear death because to leave the earth is simply to go be with Jesus, which is where they yearn to be anyway.
It sounds like you are claiming that people who do not subscribe to god are without morals. Let me say that many things you would label as "sin" are not bad at all. The only things that are bad are activities that directly, physically harm another person's life/well-being (read: not your own life, as that's your choice). And that is because you are endangering the only life another person will ever get. It is your right to do whatever you please to your own life, but not to another person's.
As for believers not fearing death....that is a lie! Tell me, then, why a Christian is in panic mode, desperate for the services of an ambulance, hospital, and DOCTORS when disaster strikes? They are using earthly means to try to keep themselves around a little longer. If it really wasn't "their time to go", god willing, then it should not be such a rush and desperation to utilize the same resources that atheists have available to them to not die. What are you guys so worried about? Why try to fight to stay in this world, which is pretty sh*tty compared to heaven, right? Because "god's not done with you yet"? Aren't you kind of deciding that by using outside means to keep yourself alive?
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Saying "that was meant for a different time" is not true because Jesus said you are not to take away any word from the law!
I may be mistaken, but I don't believe there's any scriptural evidence that Jesus himself ever said this. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though.
"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus in Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)
"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
Just a few. ;)
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Anyway I'm curious now exactly why are you so sure Christianity is completely false? I mean seriously I've heard everything and nothing has made me give up my faith.
I'm sure you mean "everything" in the sense of this forum, correct? Because a few solid sentences here and there aren't going to phase you. It might get you thinking a few years down the line, but while you are in the midst of a steel-trap mind for Christianity, not even the most convincing proofs are going to alter a person who is stubborn to change.
It would turn into a novel if I were to list all of the many reasons I know there is not a god (at least not the Christian god). There would be a mountain of logic, evidence, rational proofs, and common sense, and not a single one would matter until you're ready to hear them. You have to have the courage to dare to accept that everything you thought you knew and we're so convinced of and so desperately hopeful for could be wrong. Until you can truly admit that the alternative could be possible, you will continue to make excuses and shut yourself out to all logic and reason.
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"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus in Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)
It's unclear precisely which commandments Jesus was referring to here, but, when taken in context, it's highly suggestive that he was in fact referring to his own commandments rather than those of the Old Testament. Even if not, I honestly doubt he was referring to the laws of Leviticus or Deuteronomy when he referenced "commandments", as these were normally only available to the high priest of that era.
And the rest of the scriptural evidence you provided is not based off of words spoken by Jesus.
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Anyway I'm curious now exactly why are you so sure Christianity is completely false? I mean seriously I've heard everything and nothing has made me give up my faith.
I'm sure you mean "everything" in the sense of this forum, correct?
Lol are you serious? Of course not. I'm talking about people I communicate in real life have tried to convince me there is no God as well.. Nothing they have said has even made me doubt my faith.
Which is why you haven't answered my question. All of your scientific theories are just as dumb to me as you think Christianity is.
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On this subject it's a sticky one. Now you state that you don't believe in God. Well to each their own thinking but I feel like I know different.(4) years ago I was on my death bed the doctors had gave up on me there was nothing else that they could do.
I had been in ICU for a month with no response to anything. I just woke up one morning and my first words were where am I.I didn't have a strong faith at first either. Now everyday I say THANK YOU GOD for another day to be here to see my children and grandchildren. Just my opinion.
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I've witnessed such miracles myself first-hand, and I have personally had an experience speaking in tongues-- quite a frightening experience to say the least. Both of these occurrences were guided by people of different religion, each strong in their faith, and has made me a very strong believer in the power of the human mind.
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I believe there is only one Creator, tho is known by many names.
I believe that many beliefs that people credit Creator for are in reality man made.
I believe that so called miracles occur to people of many different faiths and to those of no faith at all.
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I believe there is only one Creator, tho is known by many names.
I believe that many beliefs that people credit Creator for are in reality man made.
I believe that so called miracles occur to people of many different faiths and to those of no faith at all.
Mushyness at its finest.
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I believe in Fusion Cash! ;D sorry, just had to say that.... lol
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ONLY JESUS....there may be tons of "stories" about other "saviors and rule-makers" who will reward you eternally besides Jesus but when they died, I don't recall hearing about how they rose from the dead like Jesus did... and no...NOT everyone fears death
At least 6 other gods died and were resurrected prior to Jesus:
Horus, Osiris, Attis of Phrygia, Krishna, Mithra of Persia, and Dionysus.
I don't fear death. :o
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I don't understand why you would mention repeatedly that Jesus said you are not to take away any word from the law....and then use many verses taken from a Catholic Bible to prove points when the Catholic Bible is one version that is known to have been "modified" to suit the purpose of the Catholic faith.....??? ???
"Catholic" Bible? A verse is a verse and it's the same message in any translation. The foundation of the Bible is messed up no matter who modifies it. I wasn't aware those acronyms following the Scripture were something worthy of being picked on. They were referenced from an online, non-religious source, and instead of being like, "Oh, it says the same thing in the NIV, too!" you make an excuse to act like such Scripture is invalid.
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Horus, Osiris, Attis of Phrygia, Krishna, Mithra of Persia, and Dionysus that whole topic is covered better than I have time to explain at the site:gotquestions.org/Jesus-myth.html
And I'll redirect to the page on that site that says I am saved because I believed once, so you all don't have to worry about me. ;)
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This thread has become an entity.
And Sheryl, I doubt whatever version of the bible you carry translates any better than what she's quoted.
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ONLY JESUS....there may be tons of "stories" about other "saviors and rule-makers" who will reward you eternally besides Jesus but when they died, I don't recall hearing about how they rose from the dead like Jesus did...
Horus, Osiris, Attis of Phrygia, Krishna, Mithra of Persia, and Dionysus
All of these characters have attributes similar to Jesus. They don't tell the exact story word for word as told in the NT, but they have many of the same ideals, functions, births, deaths, nicknames, and traditions (Dionysus = god of wine. Was believed to be "in the wine," and when it was drunk, a mania overtook his followers, his spirit being in them). I think two of them rose from the dead 3 days after their deaths. Dionysus was resurrected a few times even.
Despite what any creationist website will say to shell themselves away from the reality of things, saying Jesus isn't loosely based on any of these is like saying "O' Brother Where Art Thou" isn't loosely based on Homers "The Odyssey".
and no...NOT everyone fears death
I was being blunt with this because it just sounded naive. I don't know you personally so maybe you're an android or something...but if you were thrown into a pit of rabid angry pitbulls, tied to railroad tracks and the train was a couple dozen feet away, or there was an armed murderer coming up the stairs and you were trapped without any means of defense, you cannot be human if you don't feel the fear of death. Sure you can say you wouldn't because "god's gonna be with me through it!" but don't fool yourself. It's natural to fear death, toughy.
All of your scientific theories are just as dumb to me as you think Christianity is.
Gravity vs. Talking Snake! OH IT'S ON!
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Gravity vs. Talking Snake! OH IT'S ON!
I obviously wasn't talking about gravity... I mean seriously wtf.
I was referring to the big bang theory and all the other theories of how the world came to be.
to me they are ridiculus.. just like you think Christianity is ridiculus. Everyone has their own beliefs. I honestly don't care what else you have to say either.
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Here is just a small fraction of proof to why Christianity is true.
This was written by a former atheist... Read number 5 if you don't believe me.. He/she used to do the same crap you guys do.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
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I was referring to the big bang theory and all the other theories of how the world came to be.
to me they are ridiculus.. just like you think Christianity is ridiculus.
Theory- a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
A scientist will have the guts to admit they were wrong if your theory is justifiable. If it furthers our understanding of things, they'll shake your hand.
Here is just a small fraction of proof to why Christianity is true.
This was written by a former atheist... Read number 5 if you don't believe me.. He/she used to do the same crap you guys do.
Another creationist website? Mixing god with science and then jumping to Jesus? I assure you many atheists have seen this approach dozens of times. Everything listed in there has a scientific theory to it. If you can disprove every single one of them (ie list the scientific theory weighed against "god did it! It's perfect!" and describe in detail why the scientific evidence is false) then maybe this article would have some weight to it. If you cannot, then this is nothing more than a typical creationist swing on things.
Delusion- a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.
(http://depletedcranium.com/creationism.gif)
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Let's just say there is no God, what does it matter? What does it change? I really don't know who would want to live for eternity anyways. Why is there a need for a God? Just enjoy life and the time you have and if there is nothing after then it's not like it will matter. Why even debate the existance of God? I guess I just don't understand. Some people don't care if there is a God, some don't need one, some are happy with just dying and being dead.
I honestly would rather there be no God then there be one and wind up in Hell. I am also not so sure I would want to live for eternity because it just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and never ever ends and keeps going. Makes me think I might go nuts. I like the idea of death but then again I have no children and I am not married and really am not close to any family members.
But o'well. Why debate, people get irate.
Atheists seem cool with the idea there is no God and laugh at those that believe and call it fairy tale nonsense. Atheists seem unaffected by this reality so it can be done. I am sure Atheists loose no sleep at night and laugh and have a good time in life and they also have children. Sometimes their children will die but they mourn then get up and go to work soon after because that's life.
It DOES change certain aspects of your lifestyle to come away from god; namely, being granted the ability to think more and rationalize and be logical, and that obviously is going to have you seeing a lot of things clearer. Perhaps you'll develop more human rights-based morals (gays should be allowed to marry, etc.). Maybe if you were one of those mushy believers who only believed in "something higher" would things not really change.
You are absolutely right about the eternity factor (whether one has family or not). You WOULD go nuts having to be conscious indefinitely; eventually everything would get old and not be special because that's just how our brains work. I'm sure many of you sometimes already feel it in your daily life now! God would have to do a routine brain wipe on us for us to be happy long-term in heaven. Many believers will also have to be turned into vegetables, lest they recall that many of their loved ones are burning in hell. There's a need for god because people don't realize what forever really means. To them, being like they are when they're asleep at night or before they were born is scarier than an eternity of being bored, forced to worship a monster who sent many of the people they loved to hell. They assume it will be all ecstasy and rainbows indefinitely, and that's not possible.
It is definitely a sick game that "god" has set up for us. Set up a world that is scientifically not in his favor, give us a Bible with absurd laws and a plethora of passages that demonstrate what a monster he is, then send all walks of life to hell simply for not "believing" in him. What a 3-year-old god is.
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Let's not confuse the fear of imminent pain and suffering with that of death or what waits after.....
I'm kinda busy today but considering my own personal beliefs of what awaits on the other side I'm kinda looking forward to it.....
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Let's not confuse the fear of imminent pain and suffering with that of death or what waits after
There ya go. I was thinking of the before and after part. Not just the after. My mistake. Thanks, mate.
You'd be very wrong there. Ever hear of David & the Lion's Den? The 3 men in the fiery furnace?
I am well aware of those stories. They are a great example for people who put their lives on the line to believe in god. But they're just myths.
If it's His Will to deliver them, He will. If it's not His Will, then to be killed is simply to go be with Him.
How convenient to think this way.
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The big bang theory is not true : http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/133-the-big-bang-theory-vs-gods-word
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Most of the disciples died horrific deaths, many missionaries have, Jesus sure did. When one's soul is in God's Hands, there is nothing to fear.
Jesus feared death.
Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani
You would honestly have to be completely deranged not to.
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Lacey, seriously, if you want people to listen to you, you're going to have to add sources that aren't from creationist viewpoints.
(http://migration.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/christianity.jpg)
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Yeah lil lady. Consider different sources before you declare what is or isn't truth.
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I don't either, the religious rantings make me ill.
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I was questioning WHY mention repeatedly that Jesus said not to take away any word from the law....and then use many verses taken from a Catholic Bible to prove points when the Catholic Bible is one version that is known to have been "modified" to suit the purpose of the Catholic faith...it doesn't make much sense.
It was an oversight on my part that it was a "Catholic" Bible but you are making excuses; the same exact verses are in your "Christian" New International Version.
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Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol?
If someone is worshiping the image of the cross itself, then by all means, shame on them. The cross and our depiction of Christ is a memorial so that we do not forget what he did for us. God commands the Israelites in the Old Testament to set up memorials to remember what He did for them. We do not worship the cross, we worship the Lord who died on it. It is only an image to remind us.
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THE ONLY THING I HAVE TO SAY IS IF THERE IS A GOD AND NO ONE HAS EVER SEE HIM HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE.
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The big bang theory is not true
In regards to your little picture: we are not claiming that "there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing"; in the beginning of the universe as we know it, all of the chemical elements necessary for life were contained within a very small space, and due to a reaction, it eventually led to everything we have now. Do we know if those chemical elements "always" existed? No. Do we know why there was a reaction, this wonderful accident that is life? No, but sh*t happens, it's not that hard to grasp. To have a great deal of it figured out going back 14 billion years is pretty good by my book. Sorry if that much science and time span isn't good enough for you!
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In regards to your little picture: we are not claiming that "there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing"; in the beginning of the universe as we know it, all of the chemical elements necessary for life were contained within a very small space, and due to a reaction, it eventually led to everything we have now. Do we know if those chemical elements "always" existed? No. Do we know why there was a reaction, this wonderful accident that is life? No, but sh*t happens, it's not that hard to grasp. To have a great deal of it figured out going back 14 billion years is pretty good by my book. Sorry if that much science and time span isn't good enough for you!
And tell me where this matter came from? How did that get here? What is your explanation to that?
And this big giant explosion just happend and it created a world with a sun and moon to keep it perfectly livable.....lol yeah right. That is crazy. And who is to say that God didn't have anything to do with that big bang? Maybe God created that big unexplanable reaction. This world was not a big accident. Your defense is going to be "And yeah God creating the world makes so much more sense hahahahhahaha....." But I guess you just don't realize how illogical your little theories are.
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guys this is just simple
let the people believe on what they want. its there choice
you force people to believe or not to believe its just wrong
if you believe in those categories back up your facts
what you believe in its important to you and your faith don't let others try to pull you out of it just because on what they see and hear the bad things. be prideful but don't try to boast it just have an open mind to others and be considerate.
lets have an good debate don't try to label on just "Christians" try to discuss in all religious aspects
not a mod here but these are some of the things that should be said. you guys are just focusing on one point and now you guys are pushing people around with there faith.
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I would guess the matter didn't come from anywhere and simply existed just like God didn't get created or come from anywhere but simply exists.
Tell me this...Where did God come from? How did he get there? What created him. oh and by the way, I believe in God.
I knew someone would bring this up. God has just always existed. He has just always been here and always will be. Atheists just seem to always think they have some kind of logical explanation to eveything.. So I want their opinion. I want to know where they think the matter came from.
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"Not looking forward to it" is different than "fearing" it. Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachthani translated is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Now you're just splitting hairs. I don't know what kind of robot you think Jesus was but let me assure you he was very much a man who displayed a broad range of human emotions throughout his recorded life-- from compassion to rage, and from assurance to dread. You're attempting to dehumanize a man I hold in high regard here, and it's pretty insulting to say the least. I understand you have this idea of Jesus as some otherworldly being, but even your own doctrine preaches that before his resurrection he was merely mortal and subject to all of our faults and shortcomings. To claim a man-- any man, deified or otherwise-- would not feel fear while tortured is just preposterous.
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guys this is just simple
let the people believe on what they want. its there choice
you force people to believe or not to believe its just wrong
if you believe in those categories back up your facts
what you believe in its important to you and your faith don't let others try to pull you out of it just because on what they see and hear the bad things. be prideful but don't try to boast it just have an open mind to others and be considerate.
lets have an good debate don't try to label on just "Christians" try to discuss in all religious aspects
not a mod here but these are some of the things that should be said. you guys are just focusing on one point and now you guys are pushing people around with there faith.
That's what I said at first. Lol but these people just don't get it. I mean seriously what harm is religion doing anyway? It's like they think they are helping others by convincing other people to not be Christian.. kinda strange.
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That's what I said at first. Lol but these people just don't get it. I mean seriously what harm is religion doing anyway? It's like they think they are helping others by convincing other people to not be Christian.. kinda strange.
Surely I'm not included in "these people"? :angel12:
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I just hate when a church stands up for the pastor (priest or any other higher up) when they have committed such awful sins, sins that they preach to followers about everyday. I'd have so much more respect for the church stepping forward and admitting that the pastor-the one everyone trusted- had f-ed up. I just have NO tolerance in a church, or those who claim to be "saved", but who refuse to report sexual or any kind of abuse for the sake that the church or faith's name look bad. I'm all about to each their own, and I've never cared about or based friendships off of what others believe-hey whatever gets you through life and keeps you happy. But, the whole reason this topic gets to me sometimes are the Christians (not all Christians) who preach to others about what they HAVE to do to get accepted into the gates of Heaven-when they are judging those who don't believe and claim they are going to hell or will be stuck in purgatory because some pastor or priest didn't throw some water that was "holy" on you before you died and now you will be sent to hell w/fire and demons and Satan will poke you w/his pitch fork...*bleep* there are gonna be a LOT of people in this hell place--think about it, if what they claim is true more than half the WORLD will be in hell. I'm gonna stop now because i don't usually get this into the God topic.
p.s. i was a victim of this so called faith who was supposed to love and protect God's children-so i have strong feelings of those who lie for the sake
p.s.s this was my first post and my first forum or community board thing i've ever been on...EVER. This is pretty cool
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That's
Surely I'm not included in "these people"? :angel12:
Lol actually I was not referring to you at all.
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I just hate when a church stands up for the pastor (priest or any other higher up) when they have committed such awful sins, sins that they preach to followers about everyday. I'd have so much more respect for the church stepping forward and admitting that the pastor-the one everyone trusted- had f-ed up.
I totally agree. If a preist or pastor messes up he should be kicked out of the church. They should not cover up for his mistakes. That's almost as wrong as the things that he has done. This is probably another reason I don't go to church.
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And tell me where this matter came from? How did that get here? What is your explanation to that?
And this big giant explosion just happend and it created a world with a sun and moon to keep it perfectly livable.....lol yeah right. That is crazy.
You do understand people thought the world was flat for most of mankinds history (among other theories). Those people were incapable of figuring it out due to lack of a geometrical understanding and...well...no rockets! People also thought angels created rainbows. Just because they didn't understand then that the world was round or had discovered how the visible spectrum works does not mean they were right about it being flat or angels making the colors. The same can be said about your reasoning here-- you're just taking the simple path and going with the flow because it's the only easy explanation mankind has right now and won't budge from to research other theories in depth.
And who is to say that God didn't have anything to do with that big bang? Maybe God created that big unexplanable reaction. This world was not a big accident. Your defense is going to be "And yeah God creating the world makes so much more sense hahahahhahaha....." But I guess you just don't realize how illogical your little theories are.
What you have constantly failed to do is post proof that god did these things. But if he did, he did a slipshod job engineering it. Excuse me for sounding rude but all you have shown is a very narrow-minded point of view quoting creationist sites and thinking that our world is the essence of perfection. Perfect to whom? Us? Or the universe? It is far from for our species. Even though it benefits us, we are slaves to nature too. We have the threat of climate problems constantly. Desertification can destroy massive amounts of land creating massive famine. Plate tectonics make mankinds achievements extremely fragile. Species of animals are always going endangered upsetting the balance of things. We constantly fight the evolution of insects building up tolerances for our insecticides to save our crops. Age-oriented, the earth is in a constant red-alert state due to the threat of asteroid bombardment coming in from between Mars and Jupiter. This is just the tip of the iceburg.
So maybe god did. Maybe god didn't. We have watched planets and stars form from matter and explode into matter. All of these are spectacular sights. But I wouldn't call these things accidents. It's the nature of our universe-- it's how it has always been therefore there's nothing abnormal about it. Like I was trying to state above, who knows what else we'll find out (there).
For Him to be fearful would have told Believers that "fear" is alright and it isn't, as fear is one of Satan's tools.
I fear people with this mindset running rampant in our government. Is that just realistic or is it satan screwing with me?
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What you have constantly failed to do is post proof that god did these things.
And how exactly have I failed? Of course there is no definite proof God did these thing but what I have been doing is stating the reasons I believe God has created this earth. There is also no definite proof of the big bang theory. I honestly don't care if you believe God, or the big bang created this earth... I mean that is you're opinion.
But I believe God has created this world. I am not narrow minded I've actually looked into the big bang theory and so many other theories and religions. Christianity is the only thing that makes sense to me.
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:) Thank you!
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And how exactly have I failed? Of course there is no definite proof God did these thing but what I have been doing is stating the reasons I believe God has created this earth. There is also no definite proof of the big bang theory. I honestly don't care if you believe God, or the big bang created this earth... I mean that is you're opinion. But I believe God has created this world. I am not narrow minded I've actually looked into the big bang theory and so many other theories and religions. Christianity is the only thing that makes sense to me.
Could you explain the big bang theory accompanied with explanations from scientists that you can refute with the existence of god? Also, could you send me the names of the science books you used in your studying? College courses? Do me a favor and don't use any creationist websites for this one as that easily taints and destroys the argument. I'm just curious to know the education of your opinion. The reason I ask this is because you use 'Christianity' and 'makes sense' in the same sentence.
"I think the world is round. I'm not completely sure, but I'm open to hearing your argument on why it's not."
"I think the world is flat. It makes sense to me. You're illogical with your little 'theory' lololol"
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Could you explain the big bang theory accompanied with explanations from scientists that you can refute with the existence of god? Also, could you send me the names of the science books you used in your studying? College courses? Do me a favor and don't use any creationist websites for this one as that easily taints and destroys the argument. I'm just curious to know your education of your opinion. The reason I ask this is because you use 'Christianity' and 'makes sense' in the same sentence.
Are you serious? First of all yes I did learn about the big bang theory in high school and in college and it just so happens my college professor was a very very strong believer in the big bang theory.. So he made sure he explained it in depth. I also had to do various reports on this theory so I had to study it for a while. I read so many articles and books about this subject and you expect me to remember every website and book? Christianity makes sense to me. Is it that hard for you to understand that you and I have different viewpoints?
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Is it that hard for you to understand that you and I have different viewpoints?
No. I just asked for your sources. Could you pull those reports out and read me the bibliography please? I might want to read them myself.
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No. I just asked for your sources. Could you pull those reports out and read me the bibliography please? I might want to read them myself.
No. I'm sorry but I don't feel like I need to go through my old reports and tell some stranger the sources I used 2 years ago just so they can believe I have knowledge of a theory. It's not worth it. I feel like your calling me a liar. It's like you seriously don't believe I know anything about the big bang theory... Whatever. I really don't care I know that I have perfect knowledge of what the big bang theory is. Go ahead and quiz me.
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I'm just trying to wrap my head around why someone would disassociate their study in something that has realistic forms of evidence and could be proven through science one day and favor something that is strictly faith-based that has no evidence except for the individuals opinion on things (thus my flat/round-world example). From my viewpoint it just sounds easier to do. Is this right?
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Why does christianity make sense?
That is such an easy question yet such a hard one. I could type hundreds of paragraphs to tell you why it makes sense to me. First of all when I was i middle school they taught me that God was the creator. They used scientific proof and everything made perfect sense. They used proof similar to this website:http://www.icr.org/article/summary-scientific-evidence-for-creation/ I know you stated so many times to not use creationism sites but this site has scientific proof as well.I went to a different school system in high school and they taught me about the big bang theory... It made sense at first but the more I looked into it the more it made absolutely no sense. It totally contradicts itself. It ignores the First law of Thermodynamics, which says: "matter cannot be created or destroyed"The more I learned about the big bang theory the more I thought how impossible it was. I mean if I told you that thousands of pieces of timber were set in motion by a tornado in a lumberyard and this ultimately resulted in the amazing design and complexity of the house you live in, you would think this was absurd to say the very least. Well how did this big bang create such a complex thing like our world? The big bang theory also ignores The 2nd law of Thermodynamics" which says: "Everything tends towards disorder." For a scientific theory it sure does ignore a lot of scientific laws..
I will finish this tomorrow...
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Let's not forget it took Jesus three days to die.
Let me "split some more hairs" then and ask....what good "Bible" did you get that incorrect information from?
That was a complete mistake that I'm very embarrassed over. Your other responses are unworthy of a riposte. Your own god commands fear and yet you accuse it of being a tool of the devil. This kind of reasoning makes my head explode.
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And tell me where this matter came from? How did that get here? What is your explanation to that?
And this big giant explosion just happend and it created a world with a sun and moon to keep it perfectly livable.....lol yeah right. That is crazy. And who is to say that God didn't have anything to do with that big bang? Maybe God created that big unexplanable reaction.
Who cares? There is always going to be a point that we don't know something -- that doesn't mean fill in a magical guy in the sky and that automatically makes sense and is sufficient! You're trying to find a loophole or gap in science, not realizing that stuffing a lack of knowledge with "god" doesn't solve ANYTHING.
The world WAS an accident. I know that isn't nice to hear; it's like when your mom and dad tell you that you were an "accident" -- you want to believe that you were lovingly planned, but hey, you can at least be glad you're alive. Not like you'd care if you weren't alive, but that's beside the point...
Out of a billion galaxies, NO, IT IS NOT IMPROBABLE that at least *one* would be livable!!! Seems like a waste of space on god's part, actually, to make this vast universe, brimming with other galaxies and solar systems, but then only be concerned with our little insignificant planet and the idiots on it.
I thought god created the world in 7 days 6,000 years ago? Or are you in the camp that knows that is impossible?
Why would you claim god would use the Big Bang 14 billion years ago; exactly what the hell was god doing leading up to humanity, then? Oh, right, "evolving" things...but wait, evolution is a lie! I'm so confused...
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Sheryl: again, you must have missed my statements that I wasn't aware that it was a Catholic Bible. I did not pull the verses from my own Bible (which is KJ and sitting on the bookshelf); I got them online because it's easier than having to page through and type things out. Regardless, you're ignoring the fact that it says the same horrible things in any freaking version of the Bible!! Enough said.
Also...why are you so sure Catholics "wrong", anyway? I wasn't a Catholic, but it seems non-denominational Christianity is the white supremacist, "America is the greatest country" brand of religion.
All denominations are equally crazy...
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Queen,
Were the scientists there when the big bang supposedly happened?
Wow they made aHUGE guess to how the world was created. They made it up off the top of their heads with a little backup of what they call evidence. Why do you think it is called the big bang theory because that's all it is. It's a theory (A theory that makes no sense.) And people like you are like "It's science it's true. Science is always right." No it's not. There have been millions of scientific theories that have been proven wrong.. Scientists seriously need to just stop making illogical guesses to how this world was made. God created it. End of story.
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You should check out books written by C.S. Lewis... They are very helpful for doubtful people. He basically uses a skeptic argument to find what is really true in the world. He is now so strong in his faith and belief in the reality of God and His kingdom, that he has written all of these truly inspiring books that will either convince you that there is a God out there, or change your life forever. Trust me.
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I just hate when a church stands up for the pastor (priest or any other higher up) when they have committed such awful sins, sins that they preach to followers about everyday. I'd have so much more respect for the church stepping forward and admitting that the pastor-the one everyone trusted- had f-ed up.
I totally agree. If a preist or pastor messes up he should be kicked out of the church. They should not cover up for his mistakes. That's almost as wrong as the things that he has done. This is probably another reason I don't go to church.
Thanks for posting back to my reply. it's nice to hear this from someone that is religious and this is the whole reason i don't attend church. It's not that i don't believe in God it's just i don't believe in organized religion. If God (or whatever higher up) is what everyone portrays as "perfect" then i believe he doesn't give a damn what label or church or even bible you read or live by. Thanks again Lacey for responding, it mattered to me:)
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Sheryl: again, you must have missed my statements that I wasn't aware that it was a Catholic Bible. I did not pull the verses from my own Bible (which is KJ and sitting on the bookshelf); I got them online because it's easier than having to page through and type things out. Regardless, you're ignoring the fact that it says the same horrible things in any freaking version of the Bible!! Enough said.
Also...why are you so sure Catholics "wrong", anyway? I wasn't a Catholic, but it seems non-denominational Christianity is the white supremacist, "America is the greatest country" brand of religion.
All denominations are equally crazy...
I NEVER SAID Catholics are wrong, what I said was their translation of the Bible is one that is known to have been modified to suit their fancy.
Which Bible are you using and what languages was it translated from? (hint: it was translated from the same languages the "Catholic Bible" was)
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Someone asks where the matter came from. Open a physics book and do a little research. Here, I'll get you started:
1) E = mc^2
2) Vacuum fluctuations
3) Two scenarios in which scientists have observed matter arising without anything creating it. Spontaneous.
Have fun. Don't comment until you've made an honest effort on the research and an honest attempt at understanding.
Queen,
Were the scientists there when the big bang supposedly happened?
Wow they made aHUGE guess to how the world was created. They made it up off the top of their heads with a little backup of what they call evidence. Why do you think it is called the big bang theory because that's all it is. It's a theory (A theory that makes no sense.) And people like you are like "It's science it's true. Science is always right." No it's not. There have been millions of scientific theories that have been proven wrong.. Scientists seriously need to just stop making illogical guesses to how this world was made. God created it. End of story.
I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Please state if you are or aren't. Thank you.
But just for fun, here's some cool "just theories" outside of the Big Bang:
Germ Theory - A scientific theory that proposes that microorganisms are the cause of many diseases. Have you ever been to a doctor when you were ill? Did you start screaming in his face "IT'S JUST A THEORY!!" when he prescribed you some medicine? Ever taken an antibiotic? Don't trust those screwy doctors with their crazy "guesses" on why people get sick.
Plate Tectonics - A scientific theory which describes the large scale motions of Earth's lithosphere. It's just a "random guess" that the Earth is made up of plates, and it's an even bigger "guess" (AND ONE THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!) that when these plates move and collide it causes earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc. Screwy geologists and their nonsensical guesses, huh?
General Relativity - The basis of our understanding of gravity and the foundation of much of modern physics. But hey, it's just a stupid guess by some idiots in lab coats. What do they know? Better go back to that one book with the talking snakes and stuff...the people who wrote that knew their *bleep*!
I'll stop there until I hear back from you on whether or not you were being serious. I can't imagine someone being that ridiculously ignorant, but hey, I wouldn't be surprised.
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Thanks for posting back to my reply. it's nice to hear this from someone that is religious and this is the whole reason i don't attend church. It's not that i don't believe in God it's just i don't believe in organized religion. If God (or whatever higher up) is what everyone portrays as "perfect" then i believe he doesn't give a damn what label or church or even bible you read or live by. Thanks again Lacey for responding, it mattered to me:)
No problem :)
I feel the same way about churches. I've attended so many churches with the most hypocritical people and the only reason they go is just because it makes them feel like they're going to heaven. Going to church will not make up for the horrible things they do when they aren't at church.
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liljp617,
Wow. Anyone with half a brain could figure out the theories you stated. I mean are you serious? Is the question... Don't you think how this world came to be may be a tad bit harder to figure out then gravity? Did I ever say every theory was wrong? OF COURSE NOT! A scientific fact and a scientific theory are two completely different things. Many scientists do not think the big bang theory is how earth came to be. You're being f-ing rude. Calling me ignorant just because I believe something different than you? That's just pathetic. You don't insult people because they have different beliefs than you.
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Sheryl: again, you must have missed my statements that I wasn't aware that it was a Catholic Bible. I did not pull the verses from my own Bible (which is KJ and sitting on the bookshelf); I got them online because it's easier than having to page through and type things out. Regardless, you're ignoring the fact that it says the same horrible things in any freaking version of the Bible!! Enough said.
Also...why are you so sure Catholics "wrong", anyway? I wasn't a Catholic, but it seems non-denominational Christianity is the white supremacist, "America is the greatest country" brand of religion.
All denominations are equally crazy...
Actually, through some past research I found that most white supremacist(the uber in your face most vocal of them anyway)are subscribers to "British Isrealism" also known as Christian Identity. Case in point would be organizations and groups such as "Aryan Nations" "The Company" most contemporary skin head groups, many members of the KKK among many others.
However I do whole heartedly believe that Christianity teaches, encourages and in fact demands its own type of supremacy.
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Queen,
Were the scientists there when the big bang supposedly happened?
Wow they made aHUGE guess to how the world was created. They made it up off the top of their heads with a little backup of what they call evidence. Why do you think it is called the big bang theory because that's all it is. It's a theory (A theory that makes no sense.) And people like you are like "It's science it's true. Science is always right." No it's not. There have been millions of scientific theories that have been proven wrong.. Scientists seriously need to just stop making illogical guesses to how this world was made. God created it. End of story.
No, the scientists were not there but neither were you when the Bible was written. Where is your proof that the people who wrote the Bible - people you've never met, let alone weren't born in the same millennium as you - were "prophets of god"? Why do you trust texts from thousands of years ago (written by people who thought the earth was flat and had none of the modern improvements we have today) on how to live your life TODAY? Oh right, because it makes you feel good and you WANT it to be true. You wouldn't live your life based on two centuries back when it comes to germs now that we have the germ THEORY of disease, now, would you? Of course not...that's silly. It sure is convenient how you pick and choose when to trust science.
Science is not always right. But you seem to have forgotten what the Scientific Method is. I'd much rather put my "faith" in something that learns from its mistakes, is constantly discovering things and improving my life, than religion that settles on one impossible thing and ignores all evidence to the contrary.
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Going to church will not make up for the horrible things they do when they aren't at church.
But Lacey...you are not saved by works but through faith! It's okay to be a horrible person, as long as you really, weally believe in Jesus!
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I mean seriously what harm is religion doing anyway?
You obviously didn't pay attention in history class or watch the news if you think this is true.
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liljp617,
Wow. Anyone with half a brain could figure out the theories you stated. I mean are you serious? Is the question... Don't you think how this world came to be may be a tad bit harder to figure out then gravity? Did I ever say every theory was wrong? OF COURSE NOT! A scientific fact and a scientific theory are two completely different things. Many scientists do not think the big bang theory is how earth came to be. You're being f-ing rude. Calling me ignorant just because I believe something different than you? That's just pathetic. You don't insult people because they have different beliefs than you.
Regardless of what morals are voiced it is simply the fact of the matter that the obvious accept means to deal with people who are different or simply think different is to insult, ridicule, dis-associate, bad-jacket, slander, stalk, invade privacy, all the way up to falsely accuse, frame and sentence to extremely unreasonable imprisonment and sentences of execution by the justice system in America.
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I meant what harm is me believing in God? Why does it bother you guys so much that I believe in God? Christianity is doing no harm. In fact if a person is a Christian they typically live a better, nicer life. They have something to believe in and it makes them feel good. So why do you care? Are you jealous that Christians have something to believe in and you don't? It's just wierd that you all are so interested in a religion you have absolutely no belief in. And for your information no you will not go to heaven just because you believe in Jesus. I'm also sick of every one of you acting like I'm an idiot just because I believe in something different than you. Just accept it. I believe something different than you. So what. Get over it. I you can debate why you think something different... But saying things in a sarcastic tone and trying to make me feel dumb is going overboard. I believe in God because I can tell he is there... I mean seriously I can just feel that he is there. He has answered so many of my prayers as well. I have lived miracles that I know would'nt be possible without a God. Go ahead and laugh because I know your thinking I'm a crazy, stupid, idiotic, Christian. I don't care what you think. Because I think the same about you when you explain to me how you think the world got here. You think my beliefs are ridiculous and I think yours are. I don't pick and choose science either.... I believe the things they have actually proven. I don't believe their little theories on how they think the world got here. I can make up a theory too. That does not make it true. Also if it were so true then why do so many scientists not believe the big bang theory? They say it is impossible.
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As I have stated before, I believe there is only one Creator, God if you will, I call them Creator.
Regardless of what faith system you subscribe to, I believe everyone that believes in a Creator are believing in the same entity.
That is no issue, at least to me.
The issue comes from some of the other beliefs that people of many different faiths have. Christianity just so happens to be the religion that has had a definite negative impact in my life and peoples, so is the one I am personally most vocal about.
However, any system that teaches and promotes the idea that any person, race, group etc etc is in any way better over-all than any others is dspicable, hateful, supremacist and often deadly, there for I can not be accepting of it.
Personally, I don't think anyone is stupid that decides on what they believe by thing things through logically and believing whats is most logical to themselves.
The stupid ones, in my opinion are the ones who say they believe "A" just because that is the "In" thing to do in their own circles, and never examines said belief but lazily takes someone else's word for it....how the hell do you know you believe in it.
Believing in God in and of itself does not make anyone a Christian.
If you are going to proclaim Christianity then it would be very hypocritical to not own all of the baggage that comes from labeling yourself as such.
Not speaking to anyone in particular but to the membership as a whole.....
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As I have stated before, I believe there is only one Creator, God if you will, I call them Creator.
Why do you believe in a creator? I mean I know why I do.. and people asked me when I said I did. So I want your opinion why do you believe in a creator? It seems like no one is going to attack you for not believeing in the big bang theory lol you're lucky.
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As I have stated before, I believe there is only one Creator, God if you will, I call them Creator.
Why do you believe in a creator? I mean I know why I do.. and people asked me when I said I did. So I want your opinion why do you believe in a creator? It seems like no one is going to attack you for not believeing in the big bang theory lol you're lucky.
Well as a rule I don't get to deep into my beliefs and traditions in any public IE uncontrolled environment or forum as it were.
I will just say that Spirituality is very much a part of my culture from birth and daily through out many of our lives. I say many because there are just as many or perhaps more who have lost this part of the culture through many different circumstances, some self imposed...some forced upon us.
For those of us who have either been able to hold onto these ways or found their way back to them, we have a constant personal relationship with not only Creator but just as importantly with our Ancestors as well.
When we pray it depends on what we are praying about, who it is we are praying/talking to.
Many of us believe that our true needs are known already so we do not see a general need in praying for our selves.
Also most of those who have come to be known as traditionalist(in culture not necessarily Spirituality only) have a more community first mind set rather than a self first one, therefor, usually when we pray we are praying for others or perhaps the people as a whole.......perhaps prayers for the earth or our 4 legged relations.
I guess other then the daily personal interaction with Creator and the Ancestors, there is going to be a very strong faith as well.
I have, in my life, wavered on my path and I have also seen things happen through Ceremony that has revived my faith to my satisfaction.
I don't feel the need of proving any thing nor having broad range acceptance
I can very easily settle into an "I do me and you do you" existence, so far as our existences do not interfere in a negative way with the others existence.
I will be the first to admit that often times I am not a very effective speaker and don't always articulate my thoughts in any comprehensive manner but I hope this answers your question......to a point anyway.
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I meant what harm is me believing in God? Why does it bother you guys so much that I believe in God? Christianity is doing no harm. In fact if a person is a Christian they typically live a better, nicer life. They have something to believe in and it makes them feel good. So why do you care? Are you jealous that Christians have something to believe in and you don't? He has answered so many of my prayers as well. I have lived miracles that I know would'nt be possible without a God. I don't pick and choose science either.... I believe the things they have actually proven. Also if it were so true then why do so many scientists not believe the big bang theory? They say it is impossible.
I don't know you in the real world, so I can't make a judgment on if you believing in god is doing any harm. I can't observe your actions and note if your words and behaviors are ill-effecting others because of your belief. But I don't know how you can think adults subscribing to something for the foundation of their lives that is akin to Santa Claus or The Tooth Fairy is harmless.
Would it still be a better, nicer life if a person spent their whole life devoted to something and found out towards the end of their life that it wasn't true? I'm sure more than a few would be pissed and resentful.
Again, I used to be a Christian, so I can perfectly relate to the brainwashed mindset and "having something to believe in". And honestly, occasionally I have thought, "Man, it sure would be easier to still be that blissful and naive" when having to deal with some very hard realities of life being pointless and not having anyone to rely on but myself. But in the end, I'd much rather live my life based on truth, reality, logic, and reason.
Consider what prayers have been answered and ask yourself if those life events could have happened regardless. Why can't god do anything that isn't humanly or naturally possible? That is a big thing I realized when coming away from the Christian fold. You speak of "miracles" that you claim aren't possible without god...well, what are they? If god will do a few things that aren't possible in our world, then I'll believe! Pray about that, okay?
Sometimes we get what we want, sometimes we don't...for believers, when things happen to go their way that is god saying "yes"...if things don't turn out, that is god saying "no"...but in reality, it's just "it is what it is".
"I believe the things they have actually proven." God hasn't been proven. You just got to have faith.
"Also if it were so true then why do so many scientists not believe the big bang theory?" It is the best idea right now, supported by heaps of observable evidence, unlike god. One day there will be enough evidence to confirm yes, X is how it actually happened. Better be ready to rewrite your Bibles then!
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I will be the first to admit that often times I am not a very effective speaker and don't always articulate my thoughts in any comprehensive manner but I hope this answers your question......to a point anyway.
It answered my question. I understand because I too have faith. Honestly that's all I need to know there is a God (or creator.) But for the people who have no faith in God have a hard time understanding why people even believe in a higher being.
I also have a hard time saying exactly what I'm thinking. Sometimes it comes out wrong and I can't describe my point exactly but I try my hardest.
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I will be the first to admit that often times I am not a very effective speaker and don't always articulate my thoughts in any comprehensive manner but I hope this answers your question......to a point anyway.
It answered my question. I understand because I too have faith. Honestly that's all I need to know there is a God (or creator.) But for the people who have no faith in God have a hard time understanding why people even believe in a higher being.
I also have a hard time saying exactly what I'm thinking. Sometimes it comes out wrong and I can't describe my point exactly but I try my hardest.
The important thing to remember I think is that with each and every one of us, at the end of the day our individual relationships with Creator is a very personal one and I think should be a private one.
Regardless of our ability to find the words to describe the specifics of our relationships to other people....Creator understands exactly where we stand, and personally for me.....that is the only thing that truly matters.
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Would it still be a better, nicer life if a person spent their whole life devoted to something and found out towards the end of their life that it wasn't true? I'm sure more than a few would be pissed and resentful.
This is you're opinion you do not think God is true. What if god is real? Won't you be pissed and resentful that you have been believeing a lie?
That is how I see it. I think what you believe is a lie. And I think one day you will be resentful for what you believe. I'm sorry but scientists have no way of figuring out how this world was created. They can make all of the scientific theories they want... and some may even make sense. I think everyone is forgeting how many scientific theories that sounded absolutely true were proven false. It can sound like it makes sense but that doesn't mean it is true. I know God exists and that's all that matters. You can go ahead and believe that there was a huge explosion and it created earth. I really don't care. The fact is that none of us were there when the universe came into being, so technically, none of us can “prove” what happened. We can't “prove” God did it and the atheists can't “prove” everything came into being on it's own.
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The important thing to remember I think is that with each and every one of us, at the end of the day our individual relationships with Creator is a very personal one and I think should be a private one.
Regardless of our ability to find the words to describe the specifics of our relationships to other people....Creator understands exactly where we stand, and personally for me.....that is the only thing that truly matters.
I agree completely :)
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This is you're opinion you do not think God is true. What if god is real? Won't you be pissed and resentful that you have been believeing a lie? That is how I see it. I think what you believe is a lie. And I think one day you will be resentful for what you believe.
This is all irrelevant and pointless. The odds that you're correct are just as good as the odds that I'm correct. Pick your poison, it makes no difference, because you have the same odds of suffering eternal damnation as I do.
I'm sorry but scientists have no way of figuring out how this world was created.
They certainly have a much better chance than someone in the middle of a desert who would be impressed by a wheelbarrow.
They can make all of the scientific theories they want... and some may even make sense.
Enlighten us on which major scientific theories "don't make sense," please. There's a reason they're scientific theories -- they're backed up by research, evidence, observation, rationality, and logic. Your view of what a scientific theory consists of is ridiculously ignorant. I suggest you go research what goes into a scientific theory (it's not the same as the everyday usage of the word "theory"). It's not a random guess... -.-
I think everyone is forgeting how many scientific theories that sounded absolutely true were proven false.
Name them.
It can sound like it makes sense but that doesn't mean it is true. I know God exists and that's all that matters. You can go ahead and believe that there was a huge explosion and it created earth. I really don't care. The fact is that none of us were there when the universe came into being, so technically, none of us can “prove” what happened. We can't “prove” God did it and the atheists can't “prove” everything came into being on it's own.
Your last sentence is fairly incorrect.
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liljp617,
Scientific theories proven wrong:
•Flat Earth hypothesis. Although not a truly scientific theory, it was proved wrong by many scientific observations over a period of thousands of years, with evidence compiling and culminating in Apollo 11's images of a spherical Earth.
•Phlogiston theory. Created to explain the processes of oxidation - corrosion and combustion - it was disproved by discovery of the fact that combustion is the reaction of fuel with oxygen and that corrosion is caused by oxidation of metals and the formation of compounds.
•Geocentric theory of the solar system. Disproved by studies through astronomy, as well as the use of physics to predict occurrences that geocentrism could not. Whether Earth is really the centre of the universe remains to be seen, since we don't know exactly where the universe ends.
•The classical elemental theory (that all substance is made of earth, air, fire and water). Disproved by the discovery of subatomic particles and the modern elements, as we know them today.
•Aristotle's dynamic motion. It was an attempt at explaining momentum and why certain substances behave in certain ways; it was linked to the concept of the classical elements. Disproved by Galileo.
•Ether as a carrier of light waves and radio waves. Disproved by study of the dual particle-wave nature of light, which means it does not in fact require a medium of any kind, and the simple complete lack of any evidence for such a substance.(Disproved by the Michelson-Morley experiment.)
Those are few of the many proven wrong.
You're annoying and I'm REALLY sick of you calling me ignorant. So please just stop responding to my posts. Thank you.
It's also kinda strange how you didn't respond to the post I made directed to you.. But you responded to all the posts that were directed towards someone else.
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If you know God exists then why fight these petty battles?
I stand up for what I believe in.
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I stand up for what I believe in.
By being a naive *bleep*? C'mon now. Weren't you originally mad that the OP was being so negative? You're being no different at all.
Your defense is going to be "And yeah God creating the world makes so much more sense hahahahhahaha....." But I guess you just don't realize how illogical your little theories are.
It's like they think they are helping others by convincing other people to not be Christian.. kinda strange. That's what I said at first. Lol but these people just don't get it. I mean seriously what harm is religion doing anyway?
I'm sorry but I don't feel like I need to go through my old reports and tell some stranger the sources I used 2 years ago just so they can believe I have knowledge of a theory. It's not worth it.
Scientists seriously need to just stop making illogical guesses to how this world was made. God created it. End of story.
liljp617, Wow. Anyone with half a brain could figure out the theories you stated. I mean are you serious? You're being f-ing rude. Calling me ignorant just because I believe something different than you? That's just pathetic. You don't insult people because they have different beliefs than you.
This is you're opinion you do not think God is true. What if god is real? Won't you be pissed and resentful that you have been believeing a lie?
That is how I see it.
You're annoying and I'm REALLY sick of you calling me ignorant. So please just stop responding to my posts. Thank you.
Granted I've probably gone a little over the edge a little in the past, but nobody is doing it constantly like you. Learn to argue peacefully, Christian.
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Thank you for mentioning them (although I'm aware they didn't come from your knowledge and also aware that you only copied/pasted the ones that fit your argument...but that's okay I guess). All I wanted was for you to put out some specifics rather than speak in generalities.
As you can see, I have never said scientific theories cannot be disproven. In fact, the entire goal of science is to create experiments that attempt to disprove a theory. All I have said is that scientific theories, especially those brought about by modern science, are much more than baseless guesses by some crackpot guy in a lab coat. They're not random fantasies and imaginative stories. A guess would be the definition of a hypothesis, not a theory. A hypothesis is an educated guess that is not backed up by any evidence or observation; a scientific theory is supported by evidence, rationality, and observation. Vastly different.
I was hoping you would bring up some that didn't predate modern science, but I guess I got my hopes up. It's pretty illogical to compare a theory postulated in the 1600s on the basis of alchemy and non-scientific work to a modern theory such as the Big Bang, which is heavily supported by modern mathematics, physics, observation, and experimentation.
It's also kinda strange how you didn't respond to the post I made directed to you.. But you responded to all the posts that were directed towards someone else.
Didn't see it.
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liljp617,
Wow. Anyone with half a brain could figure out the theories you stated. I mean are you serious? Is the question... Don't you think how this world came to be may be a tad bit harder to figure out then gravity? Did I ever say every theory was wrong? OF COURSE NOT! A scientific fact and a scientific theory are two completely different things. Many scientists do not think the big bang theory is how earth came to be. You're being f-ing rude. Calling me ignorant just because I believe something different than you? That's just pathetic. You don't insult people because they have different beliefs than you.
The point is that things such as gravity, plate tectonics, and microorganisms (germs) causing illness are still scientific theories. They're officially labeled scientific theories to this day. I was merely pointing out that you probably don't have an issue with believing those theories, even though they're still under the label of "theory." And you probably don't have an issue with them because they're backed by tons of research, experimentation, logic, observation, and rationality...just as the BBT is, for example.
I never implied you believed every theory to be wrong. It just seems like you've been going on about how the Big Bang is "just a theory," and thus it isn't true. You have not noted any specifics of the BBT that may be incorrect; all you've done in every post I've read so far is cut it down because it's labeled a "theory." If your basis for saying the BBT is wrong is that it's "just a theory," then why don't have you the same position on all scientific proposals under the label of theory?
How do you decide which theories are probably correct and which ones are probably wrong? Are the ones that interfere with your beliefs inherently wrong or is there some other reason you haven't stated as to why the BBT is likely wrong in your opinion?
There aren't very many physicists who doubt the BBT. They may disagree over some of the specifics, but the general theory remains intact.
I am not calling you ignorant for your beliefs. I am calling you ignorant because you don't seem to know the difference between a hypothesis and theory. I am calling you ignorant because your posts strongly imply your experience in scientific fields is extremely limited. I am calling you ignorant because your logic is contradictory and you just keep going with it even after being told why it's nonsense by multiple people. I don't care about your religious beliefs -- they're very irrelevant to me on this topic.
I did not insult you; you would know if I insulted you. Being called ignorant when you're rambling on about things you don't seem too educated in isn't an insult, it's an observation. Now, if I called you stupid, it would be a different story. Stupid means I'm saying you're incapable of understanding; ignorant means you simply haven't been properly educated on a specific subject (either because you weren't awarded the opportunity or chose not to be).
Example: I don't know how to change the oil in my car. A mechanic does. I'm ignorant of how to change the oil. That's not an insult. It means I don't know the procedure or have the knowledge.
I don't think you're stupid. I think you could easily go read a few books on the BBT and understand the evidence supporting it if you chose to. I do think you're closed-minded and ignorant of the topic. Much too ignorant to flat-out state the BBT is simply wrong. I don't think you know anything about the specifics of the theory and the research backing it up. I think you want to discuss it, you just don't have the desire to obtain the knowledge required to discuss it. I think that makes you willfully ignorant. I think willful ignorance is a stupid choice.
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I am not calling you ignorant for your beliefs. I am calling you ignorant because you don't seem to know the difference between a hypothesis and theory.
First off yes I do know the difference between a hypothesis and a theory I'm not an idiot.
Second, I know all about the big bang theory I made straight A's in science. I understand the concept of the big bang theory and I understand why and how they came up with this theory. All I'm saying is unlike other theories they cannot prove it to be a fact. There is no way they can test it. They cannot cause another huge ginormous explosion in space and see if it creates another planet... That is how this theory is different. I think you should go back and reread my posts. Because I definitely have been providing facts to why the big bang theory goes against rules of science but I guess you just didn't see those posts either...
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I think everyone will be interested in watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zigL_UmgAl4&feature=related
There is 15 parts. (You may want to start with part 2 only because part one is just a dragged on introduction of the debatores and what they are debating.) Anyway it is a full debate between a Christian and an Atheist. After you finish watching the first video look on the related videos to find the next part. I think this man can explain my beliefs far better than I ever could.
Please watch this debate all the way through. I know it's long but it makes all the points to why Christianity is true.
82% of the 632 non-christians voted that the case for Christianity was stronger.
47 became believers in God.
No Christians became Atheists.
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What if god is real? Won't you be pissed and resentful that you have been believeing a lie?
I guess it means nothing to you that I was a "true" believer of god for a full 5 years. It doesn't stir your curiosity how one of your fellow, faithful Christians was able to confidently leave the fold? I was shocked upon discovering there wasn't a god, but I was backed with enough evidence, research, and common sense that I personally could not deny the facts on a godless existence even if I wanted to.
Only one of us can be right, Lacey...as a Christian I was right there with ya, being all ignorant and saying I "know" there's a god. It's very, very easy to stay in the Christian mindset if you so desperately want what it stands for to be true. All you have to do is not extensively investigate the lofty claims you subscribe to. Don't bother having doubts, asking questions, doing research, or being open-minded to what is scientifically observable or logically feasible. Ignore any voices of reason and instead look to people in your own "club" to back up what you believe in. If we really want something to be true, we can easily be blind to anything and everything that threatens it.
The key component to success in discovering the real truth is that you have to approach the situation like an eager student who is prepared and humble enough to admit that everything they believed might have been wrong. You have to have the ability to look at the facts, evidence, and research objectively and honestly, and you have to have the courage to consult sources that are outside of your current beliefs. If you're not the type of person that is able to be aware of themselves; if you can't analyze your brain and behavior and realize when you're wrong or what "you're really trying to do" by holding steadfast to certain thoughts and feelings, then leaving Christianity will never work for you.
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I'm not an idiot.
Second, I know all about the big bang theory I made straight A's in science. I understand the concept of the big bang theory and I understand why and how they came up with this theory. All I'm saying is unlike other theories they cannot prove it to be a fact. There is no way they can test it. They cannot cause another huge ginormous explosion in space and see if it creates another planet...
You seem to be very defensive; I'm wondering why you care non-theists consider zealots to be idiots? Are you less secure in your beliefs than you've claimed?
Getting straight As in science does not necessarily have anything to do with the ability to understand the Big Bang. I'm curious as to what makes something a "fact" for you and why you don't apply the traditional definitions to your own beliefs.
You are very ignorant for saying they have no way to "test it". Please tell me what Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation is, Lacey.
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I guess it means nothing to you that I was a "true" believer of god for a full 5 years. It doesn't stir your curiosity how one of your fellow, faithful Christians was able to confidently leave the fold?
No not at all. Because at one time i was right there with you... That is what you guys don't understand I've doubted god so many times in my life. But I've come to realize the only way this world is here is because of god. What I've come to realize is what one scientist says is possible another says cannot be possible. Like you say that Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation is proof for the big bang theory.. I guess you don't know of the many scientists that have debunked that.
http://hubpages.com/hub/cmb
Anyway I know that god is true. There is also scientific proof that goes way back to the bible days..
The oldest tree found in the world is roughly 4400 years old. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees The biggest desert in the world, found in Africa, grows at a certain number of feet per year. If it has been millions of years since it started to grow, or even fifty thousand years, it would have consumed the entire world!! And that's not all folks, they found trees growing sideways straight up and upside down through the layers of earth which scientists say is not possible. They put dates on the layers of the earth and if a single tree were to be there in the way it is there, then there would have to be some sort of world wide flood. Which points back to what? the bible.
I guess no one is going to watch the debate that I gave a link too. I watched the whole thing which obviously includes the atheists viewpoint as well... If you want to understand even a little of what I believe and the scientific facts backed up by it then you should watch it.
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No not at all. Because at one time i was right there with you... That is what you guys don't understand I've doubted god so many times in my life. I guess you don't know of the many scientists that have debunked that.
The oldest tree found in the world is roughly 4400 years old. The biggest desert in the world, found in Africa, grows at a certain number of feet per year. If it has been millions of years since it started to grow, or even fifty thousand years, it would have consumed the entire world!! then there would have to be some sort of world wide flood. Which points back to what? the bible.
Hmm, by your first sentence you seem to believe that I have just gotten off track a little, that I'm just temporarily "lost" thanks to "the devil". Don't say you can understand being in my shoes because you cannot; you were never anywhere close to being away from your beliefs in away that makes you realize which side is truly correct.
And I know everyone goes around saying, "Blah, blah, everyone thinks they are right" well logically, one side is, you just might not know you're on the wrong side due to emotional attachments, ignorance, and lack of information. The Christian god is great because he is defined enough that he can be disproven and argued against.
My shift from one side to the other is permanent; once you learn something you assumed was right is actually wrong, there's no going back to it. It's plain as day once you can finally open your eyes and get away from Christianity what the real truth is. You cannot understand my position until you can look back on your old Christian self like I can. I was very much like you, saying the same things you are. It's so easy to not think about the most obvious things as a Christian...
Finding one article that suits your viewpoint written by some person on Hubpages (real credible!) does not debunk it. Likewise, finding a tree that is 4,400 years old proves nothing! There were many stories of floods; you think that because scientists may not know where certain trees came from yet means that they should believe a story of how god murdered everyone except for a guy and his family and god told them to stuff all of the millions of species of animals (including dinosaurs!) on a boat? And you say the Big Bang doesn't make sense, lolz.
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Finding one article that suits your viewpoint written by some person on Hubpages (real credible!) does not debunk it. Likewise, finding a tree that is 4,400 years old proves nothing! There were many stories of floods; you think that because scientists may not know where certain trees came from yet means that they should believe a story of how god murdered everyone except for a guy and his family and god told them to stuff all of the millions of species of animals (including dinosaurs!) on a boat? And you say the Big Bang doesn't make sense, lolz.
It wasn't just "some person." He had facts and he was very knowlegdable about this situation. He stated facts and he knew what he was talking about..
But if that's not good enough for you I don't know what is...
I could find hundreds of other articles? Do you want them as well? You just believe what you want. Okay if the world is like billions of years old then why is the oldest tree about 4,400 years old? Tell me please. Oh and what about the desert I see you completely ignored that. I guess you still are refusing to watch the debate... Whatever.
Also I love how you and lilj continue to call me ignorant just because I have different beliefs than you.. I mean seriously shut up. I know about the big bang theory and for your information I am completely knowledgable of science. I'm not f-ing ignorant.
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By being a naive *bleep*? C'mon now. Weren't you originally mad that the OP was being so negative? You're being no different at all.
Lol how am I being negative? NOTHING you posted that I said had anything negative in them.. I am arguing peacefully thank you very much :)
Lol you're hilarious. You are just flat out making things up. YOU need to learn to argue peacefully because you are the one who called me a naive *bleep*... Grow up.. Seriously. Lol I just can't get over this! It's too funny. LOL! Maybe you should reread the "evidence" You gave where I was being so negative and not arguing peacefully because seriously that is so ridiculous.
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Maybe you should reread the "evidence" You gave where I was being so negative and not arguing peacefully because seriously that is so ridiculous. NOTHING you posted that I said had anything negative in them.. I am arguing peacefully thank you very much
You're trolling now. I'd suggest rereading your posts. Let's just look at two of the things I quoted-
I mean seriously what harm is religion doing anyway?
I know about the big bang theory and for your information I am completely knowledgable of science. I'm not f-ing ignorant.
Naivety.
Wow. Anyone with half a brain could figure out the theories you stated. I mean are you serious? You're being f-ing rude.
You said this to liljp-- one of the most intelligent and non-hating people on this forum. He called you ignorant. Everyone is ignorant in one form or another. It's not a derragatory (sp?) term if you're using it to point out something fallible that someone is standing behind. Despite your mindset, you are being extremely rude and sounding very insecure through each post you make. I'm sure most people reading this will agree. But, of course, you don't care. I will say you are hurting your side of the argument by constantly saying your peice and folding your arms and looking the other way. So calm down and don't get so personal.
YOU need to learn to argue peacefully because you are the one who called me a naive *bleep*
If it means anything to you, I'll call myself a *bleep* for pointing that out.
I guess no one is going to watch the debate that I gave a link too. I watched the whole thing which obviously includes the atheists viewpoint as well... If you want to understand even a little of what I believe and the scientific facts backed up by it then you should watch it.
I'd really like to but it just seems so long to sit here on my uncomfortable chair for that long. Could you do me a favor and point me to the best parts of both arguments in those vids (example- "watch part 5 at 7:21")? I watched the 2nd part and part of the 3rd-- I found the Christian philosophy in the beginning of the 3rd part only scraping the surface of what they were arguing for/against.
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Wow. Anyone with half a brain could figure out the theories you stated. I mean are you serious? You're being f-ing rude.
You said this to liljp-- one of the most intelligent and non-hating people on this forum. He called you ignorant. Everyone is ignorant in one form or another. It's not a derragatory (sp?) term if you're using it to point out something fallible that someone is standing behind. Despite your mindset, you are being extremely rude and sounding very insecure through each post you make. I'm sure most people reading this will agree. But, of course, you don't care. I will say you are hurting your side of the argument by constantly saying your peice and folding your arms and looking the other way. So calm down and don't get so personal.
I guess you forgot to add in why I even said he was being f-ing rude. Lol you should really read what liljp was saying to me if you think what I was saying to him was negative or mean. I was only stating my beliefs and opinions then he gets an attitude with me and treats me like I'm a moron just for having different beliefs than him. I'm sorry but that is not very non-hating. And for your info I already have reread all of my posts. I was never negative or mean unless someone was being rude to me and I still wasn't half as rude as people have been being to me. There are a lot of points in that debate and if you want to see my point you would watch the whole thing yourself. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you just because you don't feel like watching the entire debate.
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Okay if the world is like billions of years old then why is the oldest tree about 4,400 years old? Tell me please. Oh and what about the desert I see you completely ignored that. I guess you still are refusing to watch the debate... Whatever.
Also I love how you and lilj continue to call me ignorant just because I have different beliefs than you..for your information I am completely knowledgable of science. I'm not f-ing ignorant.
You expect a tree to live more than a few hundred or thousand years old? Seriously? Have you not observed that all living things have a limit on their lifespan? It's not possible to have one singular tree be a billion or even a million years old; that's just ridiculous for you to expect that!
I'll watch the debate. Well, as much of it as I can tolerate, anyway. Depends on how entertaining it is... In the meantime, can you tell me how many non-Christian sources you've consulted in your quest to discover the real truth about god?
Going back to the definition of ignorant...it's not necessarily calling you stupid, it's saying you have a lack of information from unbiased sources and that you're so emotionally attached to the idea of god that you'll ignore (or make excuses for) the facts that threaten it.
You are completely knowledgeable of science?! Wow, that is an extremely lofty claim, considering how many sub-fields there are and that experts have to devote DECADES to their field of research and all. You're not even "completely knowledgeable" on how to spell the word knowledgeable, but we can trust your understanding of the vast, ever-changing field of science? :o
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I am arguing peacefully thank you very much :)
Lol you're hilarious. You are just flat out making things up. YOU need to learn to argue peacefully because you are the one who called me a naive *bleep*... Grow up.. Seriously. Lol I just can't get over this! It's too funny. LOL! Maybe you should reread the "evidence" You gave where I was being so negative and not arguing peacefully because seriously that is so ridiculous.
Do little kids argue peacefully? Because your tone is often immature. You try to defend yourself by fake-laughing over and over again, but to everyone else it just looks...pathetic.
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I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you just because you don't feel like watching the entire debate.
Man, where have we heard this before? Oh yeah, when you were asked to cite your sources for your Big Bang paper, you refused to do that as well...can't throw an atheist a bone, I guess! I thought Christians were supposed to be more helpful than that, especially when it comes to something that would "glorify god"...
As for the Sahara desert, you are coming from the assumption that it was always a desert, when it was not. Also, you failed to mention that the Sahara desert also CONTRACTS, not just expands; it has not been expanding exponentially like you ignorantly claim it has. "The climate of the Sahara has undergone enormous variation between wet and dry over the last few hundred thousand years.[12] During the last glacial period, the Sahara was even bigger than it is today, extending south beyond its current boundaries.[13]" - Wiki
You also didn't mention the reasons WHY the Sahara desert would become bigger (or smaller). You give the impression that you think it is just the natural way of things, like how our noses and ears never stop growing, but in reality, expansion is due to: "climate variation (droughts) (13) and to land mismanagement such as overgrazing, increased cultivation, and firewood cutting (8,11)" http://www.ciesin.columbia.edu/docs/005-319/005-319.html
The whole thing just proves you take something you hear in passing without doing the real research yourself and find a way to turn it into stupid "proof" for god.
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There are a lot of points in that debate and if you want to see my point you would watch the whole thing yourself. I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you just because you don't feel like watching the entire debate.
I really hope you don't act like this on a normal basis. If I were to post an extremely long video, I'd stress people to just watch the critical parts so they'd understand my point rather than throw them a 2.5 hour lecture and tell them "this is why I'm right. Don't want to watch it? Fine. Be ignorant of the truth."
Okay if the world is like billions of years old then why is the oldest tree about 4,400 years old?
The oldest ice core samples measure to be an estimate of 150,000 years old. This method has surprisingly been quite accurate as we now have a good understanding of climate changes within the last 70,000 years due to the layering of these samples. Are you one of those extremists that thinks the earth is 6,000 years old?
it's saying you have a lack of information from unbiased sources and that you're so emotionally attached to the idea of god that you'll ignore (or make excuses for) the facts that threaten it.
Better than I could say it. Nicely put. You know what bugs me? I used to be like this growing up with my 'facts'. I get a strange sense of nostalgia reading laceys posts. Very weird.
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They treat everyone that believes in God this way and is not just towards you.
Bull. Lacey is capable of arguing-- we're just trying to get his attention to some qualities he should work on. You on the other hand constantly contradict yourself, make believers look bad, and have trolled these threads to no end in the past.
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You know what's really sad? I used to be like this growing up with my 'facts'. I get a strange sense of nostalgia reading laceys posts. Strange.
Yeah, me too. When I came away from Christianity, I had to kind of shake my head at myself, thinking of all of the fallacies I never bothered to consider while I was a believer. How did you get away from it?
Marie has claimed to both believe and not believe in god, Lacey. Perhaps she is extending friendship because she has also been called a troll.
My notes on the videos thus far:
Dr. Craig says "there's not a convincing argument for atheism". Well if that we're true, there would be no ex-Christians. A lot of atheists WERE *true* subscribers to the idea of there being a god. Like I've said before, though, you have to inherently have to have a certain personality if there is ever hope for you to escape from the lies. When I actually started to read the Bible as a Christian, for example, I could not ignore how god went around murdering groups of people every other page of the Old Testament. I could not ignore the ridiculous laws like don't sit on the same furniture as a woman who's on her period, and I started to notice that good things I attributed to god or prayed for in my everyday life could have happened anyway. I was able to be aware that my being a Christian was a point-blank choice based on no evidence, and it only grew because I found churches that were "fun" and who wouldn't want to give the promise of heaven a try?
Dr. Craig seems to really like speaking in terms of atheism vs. Christianity, which is harmful because it makes it sound like both are religions, when really it should be Christianity vs. disproving your Christian god. There is so much emphasis on putting labels on atheism, when the term atheist is really only used because it's convenient -- we're used to having a word to describe everything. Atheists do not have a bunch of dogma attached to their label like Christians do!
Dr. Craig's first "proof" is that either non-believers are saying that the universe came from nothing (which is extremely ignorant), or that if it didn't come from nothing, atheists are claiming infinity, and infinity is not observable and therefore "not possible". So he is arguing against infinity…but then god is supposed to be infinite. WTF? There is no evidence that god is forever other than you saying so!
He goes on to do the odds equation of us being alive...yes it is rare for there to be life, but the fact that we are here talking about it at all shows that the odds are still possible. Anthropic principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
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You are completely knowledgeable of science?! Wow, that is an extremely lofty claim, considering how many sub-fields there are and that experts have to devote DECADES to their field of research and all. You're not even "completely knowledgeable" on how to spell the word knowledgeable, but we can trust your understanding of the vast, ever-changing field of science? :o
I obviously didn't mean I know everything about science. I meant I am completely knowledgeable of the concept of the big bang theory and other main concepts of science. Oh and have you never had a typo?
Also of course I have read non-christian sources. I mean I told you I doubted God before and that was obviously because I was reading some "non christian sources"
I mean of course all trees have a life-span but it is kinda ironic for the oldest tree to be the same age as when Noah's flood ended. That's a big coincidence...
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Do little kids argue peacefully? Because your tone is often immature. You try to defend yourself by fake-laughing over and over again, but to everyone else it just looks...pathetic.
I actually do that rarely like maybe once or twice in this entire thread?
Oh and I'm not fake laughing. ;D
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I really hope you don't act like this on a normal basis. If I were to post an extremely long video, I'd stress people to just watch the critical parts so they'd understand my point rather than throw them a 2.5 hour lecture and tell them "this is why I'm right. Don't want to watch it? Fine. Be ignorant of the truth."
Well you act like you know for a fact everything I believe is wrong so I give you one of the many debates that state a lot of my beliefs and the way I think. I would give you the critical parts but honestly the entire debate is important.
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Bull. Lacey is capable of arguing-- we're just trying to get his attention to some qualities he should work on. .
I'm definitely a SHE. And if you are honestly trying to get me to work on some of my qaulities then you need to stop continuously insulting me e.g calling me a naive *bleep*.
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Oh, and if I recall, you just called lacey a Troll and a Naive Di*k just because they refuse to give up their belief in God. And by the way Lacey is :female: :peace:
Exactly and thanks for correcting that. :)
I thought it was pretty obvious Lacey was a female name.
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you mean non-believers?!? Why would I make believers look bad if I am one myself?!? Oh, and if I recall, you just called lacey a Troll and a Naive Di*k just because they refuse to give up their belief in God.
Nice conclusion, Holmes. Why would an agnostic tell one to give up their belief in god? More importantly, why am I answering to you? I was only stating she was being rude without seeing it herself. She was starting to show signs of trolling-- I just wanted to inform her. So stop shoving words in my mouth and making me look worse than yourself. As has been stated probably a hundred times to you, stop trolling these threads. You're incapable of any form of argument. Now go post 20 paragraphs with purple text or something.
Lacey, you probably have some issues with me, but from a person who cares about your argumentative skills I would highly suggest not taking sides with her. Besides, I thought you were a robot.
stop continuously insulting me e.g calling me a naive *bleep*.
Everything I said was justified in informing you of your attitude. You were being naive and you were being a *bleep* to people with the way you write. Sorry for not making that too clear.
Well you act like you know for a fact everything I believe is wrong so I give you one of the many debates that state a lot of my beliefs and the way I think. I would give you the critical parts but honestly the entire debate is important.
No I don't. And I bookmarked your vids so hopefully I'll get around to watching them. But judging from queenof9's reviews thus far, I don't know if I should even bother. When did this debate take place btw?
Yeah, me too. When I came away from Christianity, I had to kind of shake my head at myself, thinking of all of the fallacies I never bothered to consider while I was a believer. How did you get away from it?
Well I'll try to keep it short because my story would probably be longer than any holy text. Here's the personal part- I grew up as a JW. My parents were very gung-ho on it. I had a lot of friends whose parents were evangelicals. I learned a lot about various stories in the bible and as a kid you obviously accept the mindset thrown at you. When I was a young teen it started to bug me as I realized I didn't need the religious aspect of it. Though I was looked down upon by most of the parents, I moved away from it neutrally (which is very fortunate-- very hard to do with JWs) as I saw all of my friends at that church be disfellowshipped due to their parents' believing 9 year olds have the maturity to lead a sinless life and not thinking about them being average teenagers. That's a whole different story though!
As far as the enlightenment of the fallacies I must thank my friends for that. I'm very fortunate to have a lot of agnostic and atheist friends. Most religious fanatics would call my story a "satan convincing him to the dark side!" tale, but my friends were always great and would argue the reality of things at me because I'd always start arguments with them. Though I read thru matt,mark,luke, and john I decided to start reading the bible for myself cover-to-cover. As I kept going, I realized how psychotic, barbaric, delusional, and wordy it was. I stopped in Deuteronomy somewhere because I was appalled at the book I was defending. It boggled my mind.
Then I saw the big picture-- I realized there was more than just Christianity in the world and every single one of them taught that others' beliefs are wrong. Especially the big ones like Christianity. And it was unfortunate to know that these people were fully capable of seeing through the crap but they didn't. That's when I figured it really was a shell people use for keeping themselves from any other type of questioning thoughts-- a castration of the mind per se. They'll fight tooth-and-nail to use any cop-out they can. Because I know I did. And like you, I look back at that and groan thinking I wasted so much effort on it. But hey, I still have those friends and I learned a lot about the world, didn't I? ;)
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Lacey, you probably have some issues with me, but from a person who cares about your argumentative skills I would highly suggest not taking sides with her. Besides, I thought you were a robot.
stop continuously insulting me e.g calling me a naive *bleep*.
Everything I said was justified in informing you of your attitude. You were being naive and you were being a *bleep* to people with the way you write. Sorry for not making that too clear.
Why would you think I was a robot? lol. I'm not "taking sides with her." I was just telling her thank you for correcting you're mistake. Also I may have gotten smart with people but I didn't curse at them or purposely try to offend them. Which is obviously what you were doing. I don't care what your pathetic exuses are. It was not "justified" and you were not informing me by cursing at me. If that is how you inform people of their behaviors then you need help.
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Why would you think I was a robot? lol. I'm not "taking sides with her." I was just telling her thank you for correcting you're mistake. Also I may have gotten smart with people but I didn't curse at them or purposely try to offend them. Which is obviously what you were doing. I don't care what your pathetic exuses are. It was not "justified" and you were not informing me by cursing at me. If that is how you inform people of their behaviors then you need help.
From one *bleep* to another, you were being a naive *bleep*...or jerk...or rude-person. Whichever you prefer. Choose ya poison, matey!
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From one *bleep* to another, you were being a naive *bleep*...or jerk...or rude-person. Whichever you prefer. Choose ya poison, matey!
I love how you pointed me out to be rude/*bleep*/jerk whatever when I was never rude until particular people got pretty rude with me. I think jerk or rude perosn would have been a little more polite then calling me a *bleep*.
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Whatever when I was never rude until particular people got pretty rude with me.
That's right. It's everyones fault but your own. There's a conspiracy against you. We're all so sorry.
I think jerk or rude perosn would have been a little more polite then calling me a *bleep*.
I thought you were a guy. Internet names don't do justice for me. Get over it!
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Whatever when I was never rude until particular people got pretty rude with me.
That's right. It's everyones fault but your own. There's a conspiracy against you. We're all so sorry.
I think jerk or rude perosn would have been a little more polite then calling me a *bleep*.
I thought you were a guy. Internet names don't do justice for me. Get over it!
Well maybe you should go back and look at every previous post because honestly I was trying to get my point and beliefs across without being rude at first. But you know some people insisted on being rude to me first and honestly I'm not going to put up with it so I stood up for myself... so what.
Have you ever met a guy named Lacey? Because I haven't. That's common sense buddy.
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you mean non-believers?!? Why would I make believers look bad if I am one myself?!? Oh, and if I recall, you just called lacey a Troll and a Naive Di*k just because they refuse to give up their belief in God.
Nice conclusion, Holmes. Why would an agnostic tell one to give up their belief in god? More importantly, why am I answering to you? I was only stating she was being rude without seeing it herself. She was starting to show signs of trolling-- I just wanted to inform her. So stop shoving words in my mouth and making me look worse than yourself. As has been stated probably a hundred times to you, stop trolling these threads. You're incapable of any form of argument. Now go post 20 paragraphs with purple text or something.
Lacey, you probably have some issues with me, but from a person who cares about your argumentative skills I would highly suggest not taking sides with her. Besides, I thought you were a robot.
you are the only one trolling. I just wonder if your male or female because if you are a female then responding to you is a waste of time but if you are male which I kinda think you are...
He's male. You can just tell by the way he acts. But if he were female why would it be a waste of time to respond?
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My brother goes by female names online all the time just to throw people off. Marieelissa can't even distinguish if I'm a guy or girl yet. See my point? Heheh
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My brother goes by female names online all the time just to throw people off. Marieelissa can't even distinguish if I'm a guy or girl yet. See my point? Heheh
??? Yeah...cause people do that all the time.
You're a guy.. It's so obvious. Not by your name but by the way you act. If you're femaale I would be extremely shocked
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Yeah...cause people do that all the time.
They do in online games all the time. "Oh look! A girl! Protect her!"
You're a guy.. It's so obvious. Not by your name but by the way you act. If you're femaale I would be extremely shocked
Only on friday nights, babe. Hahahahaha
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I meant I am completely knowledgeable of the concept of the big bang theory and other main concepts of science. Oh and have you never had a typo?
Also of course I have read non-christian sources. I mean I told you I doubted God before and that was obviously because I was reading some "non christian sources"
I mean of course all trees have a life-span but it is kinda ironic for the oldest tree to be the same age as when Noah's flood ended. That's a big coincidence...
I doubt you are completely knowledgeable of the Big Bang theory or other "main concepts of science", unless you actually work in that field as your career. In reality, I would guess your age to be around 24-years-old and definitely not working in the field of science.
As for typos...I don't mean to directly insult here, but usually an easy test of intelligence is if a person is capable of properly using spelling and grammar.
You can dabble in hearing what the atheist side is saying and still revert to being a Christian, no doubt.
As for your tree...if there was a similar marker that showed "evidence" for the Koran, should we draw the same conclusion? Psh, of course not because Islam is false, right? I point out that example because Christians can't see how easily their claims can be applied to ANYTHING.
What you think are "coincidences" or "miracles" are bound to happen a few hundred times a day across a globe of 7 billion people. If an event that seems strange or "evidence for god" is one out of a million, it's still going to happen somewhere at some time. If everyone in the world gets a lottery ticket and one person wins, that person feels "lucky", but in reality, someone had to get picked based on the odds, so that person is not special.
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As for typos...I don't mean to directly insult here, but usually an easy test of intelligence is if a person is capable of properly using spelling and grammar.
I guess you don't know what a typo is. It's not that I didn't know how to spell the word knowledgeable. I was typing fast and accidentally forgot the 'e' I'm positive you have had a typo atleast once in your life and that does not make you unintellgent.
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Only on friday nights, babe. Hahahahaha
Lol my point exactly a girl doesn't joke like that.
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Though I read thru matt,mark,luke, and john I decided to start reading the bible for myself cover-to-cover. As I kept going, I realized how psychotic, barbaric, delusional, and wordy it was. I stopped in Deuteronomy somewhere because I was appalled at the book I was defending. It boggled my mind.....That's when I figured it really was a shell people use for keeping themselves from any other type of questioning thoughts-- a castration of the mind per se. They'll fight tooth-and-nail to use any cop-out they can. Because I know I did. And like you, I look back at that and groan thinking I wasted so much effort on it. But hey, I still have those friends and I learned a lot about the world, didn't I? ;)
I think it's so funny that religion encourages people to read their holy texts, because for the few people that actually do sit down and read them cover-to-cover, it becomes abundantly clear what the problems are. I've yet to hear any Christian explain why it's "okay" that god was a mass-murderer in the OT. Or why the Bible is filled with such useless and distasteful sh*t...oh wait, it's not completely useless, it's great arsenal against the very god they claim to believe in!
Christianity is DEFINITELY a castration of the mind. I am 75% of the way through the videos Lacey wanted us to watch, and I find myself being like a third party in the debate, pointing out the fallacies of the Christian that the audience wasn't allowed to. As I yelled at the stupidity of what the Christian is saying, my husband came over and joked, "Shh, don't think!" and put his hand over my mouth. lol
I'm actually glad to have had my brief stint as a Christian, because you're right, you do learn about the world, and you also have "insider experience" to the mindset then as an atheist, which is an advantage.
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You're a guy.. It's so obvious. Not by your name but by the way you act. If you're femaale I would be extremely shocked
I don't get it. This implies that being a male is somehow a bad thing and that females are better??
His posts remind me of my husband, actually, who is also highly intelligent. For example, when Falconer quoted something you said and replied, "Naivety" that completely sounded like something my husband would say.
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I don't get it. This implies that being a male is somehow a bad thing and that females are better??
Lighten up I never said or implied that. I could just tell he was male by the way he acts. Just like you said he reminds you of your husband (whih is obviously a male.)
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When did this debate take place btw?
I am on video 11 out of 15 and so far, these are the conclusions I have come to as to why the Christian argument ends up being voted by the audience as "more convincing":
#1 - The debate took place AT A CHURCH in 1993. Obviously, who are the people in the audience going to have a bias for before the debate even begins -- the "good" Christian who shares their beliefs, or the "bad", controversial, unpopular atheist?
#2 - Dr. Craig (the Christian) is a good-looking, impassioned, strong speaker who dominates confidence, uses "big words", and gives an aura of authority (i.e., he pretends to be really sure of what the hell he is talking about). Mr. Zindler (the atheist) on the other hand, is a quirky-looking, meek-seeming, quiet speaker who has a lisp and says "um" a lot. These superficial differences, unfortunately, are detrimental to the atheist case, as a captive, already-Christian audience is of course going to notice that the person on "their team" appears to be a much more eloquent speaker, regardless if most everything the atheist says makes sense; they are more easily deceived by the DELIVERY of the message. Dr. Craig uses the fact that Christians are much more easily stirred by emotions to his advantage, and goes on to behave like a Baptist.
#3 - Dr. Craig (the Christian) BULLIES Mr. Zindler at the start and finish of every rebuttal. He'll be like, "Mr. Zindler STILL hasn't given us any evidence as to why atheism is correct; can I get a hell yeah, praise Jesus!" and just from his mocking, bullying tone, all of the Christians clap and go, "Oh he is so right!" In reality, Mr. Zindler's points make complete logical sense; Dr. Craig seems to think that essentially ripping the Bible to shreds is not proof against the Christian god. Dr. Craig fails to address some very real points like:
One of the earliest contradictions of the Bible is that Eve "sinned against god" by eating the fruit because hello, she could not know not listening to god was wrong until she ate the knowledge of good and evil! So mankind today is punished because Eve was expected to know that not listening to god's instructions was wrong before she had knowledge of what wrong was?! Yeah, that's fair. That makes sense!
All in all, this debate was not set up in Mr. Zindler's favor. It would have been much more worthy of a debate had Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens been swapped in so that Dr. Craig didn't "win" due to a slew of cheap shots.
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#1 - The debate took place AT A CHURCH in 1993. Obviously, who are the people in the audience going to have a bias for before the debate even begins -- the "good" Christian who shares their beliefs, or the "bad", controversial, unpopular atheist?
#3 - Dr. Craig (the Christian) BULLIES Mr. Zindler at the start and finish of every rebuttal. He'll be like, "Mr. Zindler STILL hasn't given us any evidence as to why atheism is correct; can I get a hell yeah, praise Jesus!" and just from his mocking, bullying tone, all of the Christians clap and go, "Oh he is so right!" In reality, Mr. Zindler's points make complete logical sense; Dr. Craig seems to think that essentially ripping the Bible to shreds is not proof against the Christian god. All in all, this debate was not set up in Mr. Zindler's favor. It would have been much more worthy of a debate had Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens been swapped in so that Dr. Craig didn't "win" due to a slew of cheap shots.
#1 I think you purposely forgot to mention there were many atheists at the debate as well.
#3 He bullied him? What is this elementary school? I think you're just making exuses for the atheist.
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how can u not believe in God ! you just have too look at the world to see that .this could not happen by chance some one had to plan it out that is what ur Hevenly Farther did with the help of his son Jesus Christ.
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#1 I think you purposely forgot to mention there were many atheists at the debate as well.
#3 He bullied him? What is this elementary school? I think you're just making exuses for the atheist.
I will quote directly from your videos -- 7,778 people were there, 632 were non-Christians. That constitutes as "many" to you compared to the whole? Also note it says non-Christian, not atheist. 97% of a church full of Christians voted that the Christian side was more compelling? I'm not surprised.
Why did you not address #2? Or the contradiction of The Original Sin?
As for "making excuses", it was quite clear what Dr. Craig's style was. Knowing that he was the more favored party given the group he was preaching to, he would consistently claim that Mr. Zindler hadn't answered major questions when he HAD. He took advantage of his spotlight that no one was going to speak up and tell him that he was giving false attacks. Most of the things Dr. Craig said were just emotional appeals to his like-minded audience. He wowed uneducated people with his bravado.
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I will quote directly from your videos -- 7,778 people were there, 632 were non-Christians. That constitutes as "many" to you compared to the whole?
Why did you not address #2? Or the contradiction of The Original Sin?
632 is many.
I had nothing to say to #2
They had the option to heed or not to heed. When tempted, they chose to disregard the command given them. It was the act of disobedience that woke them to the knowledge of evil. They chose to listen to the lies of a tempter rather than heed the instruction of their loving Father. Once they disobeyed, they walked right into it. The tree and the fruit were the stage for a time of testing and decision. Once they decided it didn't matter what God told them, they acted in rebellion, as if what God told them did not matter. They allowed their emotions and senses take over rather than sticking to what God initially told them and keeping their desires under control. In their act, they put themselves above God's command and protective rule.
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They had the option to heed or not to heed. When tempted, they chose to disregard the command given them. It was the act of disobedience that woke them to the knowledge of evil. They chose to listen to the lies of a tempter rather than heed the instruction of their loving Father. Once they disobeyed, they walked right into it. The tree and the fruit were the stage for a time of testing and decision. Once they decided it didn't matter what God told them, they acted in rebellion, as if what God told them did not matter. They allowed their emotions and senses take over rather than sticking to what God initially told them and keeping their desires under control. In their act, they put themselves above God's command and protective rule.
All you are doing here is describing the significance of the event while very clearly neglecting the logical fact that Eve could not have known what was right or wrong before eating the fruit that contained that knowledge. So either god is an idiot for blaming them for disobeying him before they even knew that disobedience was wrong, or god knew that would happen and did it on purpose as part of his wacko "divine plan", in which case we have HIM to blame for the evils of the world, not Adam and Eve.
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as people's legs don't typically just decide to one day grow out on their own.
Anecdotal accounts are not "proof" for god. Had what you described legitimately happened, it would have been all over the news, and atheists would not be able to ask the question, "Why won't god heal amputees?". Why hide such obvious "proof" for god, right?
In reality, you cannot trust these stories that originate from emotionally worked up people. You may not be aware of how you are being fooled, like in the case of Peter Popoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff), a "faith healer" that appeared to know all of these things about his audience thanks to god, but in reality was receiving messages from his wife who had interviewed them via an earpiece. He also rounded up perfectly mobile people and pretended to "heal" them from their wheelchairs, much like your legs story.
For anyone who feels that god has done wonderful things "just for them", I'd ask you to consider one of my favorite vids from YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dyPiIcLK90 Please let me know your thoughts on it.
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All you are doing here is describing the significance of the event while very clearly neglecting the logical fact that Eve could not have known what was right or wrong before eating the fruit that contained that knowledge. So either god is an idiot for blaming them for disobeying him before they even knew that disobedience was wrong, or god knew that would happen and did it on purpose as part of his wacko "divine plan", in which case we have HIM to blame for the evils of the world, not Adam and Eve.
First, it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (not right and wrong). And Adam and Eve were given specific instructions from God not to eat from that tree or they would positively die. Eve went on to say she knew she shouldn't even touch it, and she knew what it meant to die. God hadn't created babies here, they were full grown and they did know right from wrong. This was a test. Did Adam and Eve love and appreciate all that God had done for them? Would they obey Him in this one thing He asked of them? They had every other tree and vegetation to eat from, but the first time it was suggested they might eat of this one tree, they disobeyed, showing total lack of love and appreciation.
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I think it's so funny that religion encourages people to read their holy texts, because for the few people that actually do sit down and read them cover-to-cover, it becomes abundantly clear what the problems are. I've yet to hear any Christian explain why it's "okay" that god was a mass-murderer in the OT. Or why the Bible is filled with such useless and distasteful sh*t...oh wait, it's not completely useless, it's great arsenal against the very god they claim to believe in!
Surprisingly true. And this is exactly what I though of when I recollected my thoughts after reading the OT. I'm always brought back to George Carlins stand up routine whenever I hear someone say things like this--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o Everyone posting in this thread should watch it. Though there's lots of swearing in it, it's as hilarious as it is blunt. He's just so charismatic telling his story.
Christianity is DEFINITELY a castration of the mind. I am 75% of the way through the videos Lacey wanted us to watch, and I find myself being like a third party in the debate, pointing out the fallacies of the Christian that the audience wasn't allowed to. As I yelled at the stupidity of what the Christian is saying, my husband came over and joked, "Shh, don't think!" and put his hand over my mouth. lol
I'm actually glad to have had my brief stint as a Christian, because you're right, you do learn about the world, and you also have "insider experience" to the mindset then as an atheist, which is an advantage.
Hahaha so I guess I'm not missing out on much then? But let's just remember one thing- we're out of the cage and they really want us back in for very odd reasons. Speaking of which...
The tree and the fruit were the stage for a time of testing and decision. Once they decided it didn't matter what God told them, they acted in rebellion, as if what God told them did not matter. They allowed their emotions and senses take over rather than sticking to what God initially told them and keeping their desires under control. In their act, they put themselves above God's command and protective rule.
I understand that it's a myth with a basic moral but people actually think this happened. I could have written a similar story to tell children so they'd keep out of their parents cookie stashes. But it's conveniently at the front of a massive holy book so you can't question it. It happened. End of story. A dirt man and a rib woman, a talking snake, a perfect world, a mouse-trap fruit tree, a jealous immature child-murdering genocidal god. And that's just in the front of it. Why are we even arguing with Christians or any major religion imploring the belief in crazy stories?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff
Oh wow... James Randi ftw. I remember seeing a documentary of his on the History Channel a year ago and would be a great honor to shake his hand.
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I believe in god for somethings, but the other day i just found out that i might have cancer in my bones. This is really scary. Everyone feels like they cant figure out why me. I dont do nothing at all. I have three kids and they need me more now then ever. So im a little scared.
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I believe in god for somethings, but the other day i just found out that i might have cancer in my bones. This is really scary. Everyone feels like they cant figure out why me. I dont do nothing at all. I have three kids and they need me more now then ever. So im a little scared.
Oh no! You might have cancer though? How in-depth was the analysis? Be brave and keep your spirit up. Just remember...bravery is having fear but the will to keep moving forward. If there's anything we can do (research, personal stories, etc.), let us know.
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I understand that it's a myth with a basic moral but people actually think this happened. I could have written a similar story to tell children so they'd keep out of their parents cookie stashes. But it's conveniently at the front of a massive holy book so you can't question it. It happened. End of story. A dirt man and a rib woman, a talking snake, a perfect world, a mouse-trap fruit tree, a jealous immature child-murdering genocidal god. And that's just in the front of it. Why are we even arguing with these people?
Yeah seriously why are you? I've been wondering the same thing... You aren't standing up for what you believe in all you and queen are doing is attempting to tell the world how Christianity makes no sense. As I have stated before... Don't you have something better to do?
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You aren't standing up for what you believe in all you and queen are doing is attempting to tell the world how Christianity makes no sense.
That's what agnostics and atheists do to stand up for what we believe in. Arguing logic towards delusional stories.
Don't you have something better to do?
Don't you? Heheh. I'm tired. I worked all day. I write these as I take surveys usually. I guess I answered my own questions because certain people can collaborate and I have learned some new information in the process thanks to some people here.
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You aren't standing up for what you believe in all you and queen are doing is attempting to tell the world how Christianity makes no sense.
That's what agnostics and atheists do to stand up for what we believe in. Arguing logic towards delusional stories.
Don't you have something better to do?
Don't you? Heheh. I'm tired. I worked all day. I write these as I take surveys usually. I guess I answered my own questions because certain people can collaborate and I have learned some new information in the process thanks to some people here.
Okay whatever maybe one day you will realize they actually aren't delusion stories. They may sound delusional and crazy but God can work miracles that sound impossible.
I also do this while I take surveys and do other GPT sites.
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They may sound delusional and crazy but God can work miracles that sound impossible.
This is one of the cop-outs we're always referencing to. "The argument for Christianity is inherently infallible, since the basis of the argument allows for the impossible."
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First, it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (not right and wrong). And Adam and Eve were given specific instructions from God not to eat from that tree or they would positively die. Eve went on to say she knew she shouldn't even touch it, and she knew what it meant to die. God hadn't created babies here, they were full grown and they did know right from wrong. This was a test. Did Adam and Eve love and appreciate all that God had done for them? Would they obey Him in this one thing He asked of them? They had every other tree and vegetation to eat from, but the first time it was suggested they might eat of this one tree, they disobeyed, showing total lack of love and appreciation.
Good and evil has nothing to do with right and wrong? What the hell? They're synonyms!! I see you are making an excuse here, conveniently navigating away from the contradiction and blowing smoke.
In any event, I ask you: how does eating a piece of fruit have the power to change the neurons in one's brain? How does eating a piece of fruit magically f*ck up the whole world? How does eating a piece of fruit have the power to transform one's mortality? Your answer: it just does. Reality: it is just like any other mythology story.
Why would god, knowing full well what was going to happen anyway, set up an environment where he knew Adam and Eve would fail? Why would a loving god throw a tree in there that would kill his children? Why did god allow the talking snake to be there (never mind how obviously preposterous the notion of a talking snake is)? God knew what was going to happen, so he set the dominoes in place FOR it to happen. You can't honestly say that Adam and Eve knew the ramifications of their choice, given you yourself said they did not know what good and evil was yet. I guess that doesn't matter, though!
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Don't you have something better to do?
Heh, I know you are only saying this because you feel threatened and attacked. Had we been on "your side", telling stories of how awesome god is, we would not be accused of this! Anyway, who are you to judge what constitutes as something being worthwhile?
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IF I hadn't seen if for myself, I would have been skeptical.
Question: why does an all-powerful god stick to small, random, localized events to "prove" his existence? God is distributing crumbs by supposedly healing this one person, but he is great at not solving any problem that exists on the whole.
And yes, anyone who hears this story has every right to be skeptical, because: 1) the event cannot be repeated or demonstrated again like things that are actually true can 2) we cannot verify the circumstances you describe 3) we cannot verify your character to check if you are lying in some way (by "some way" I mean either it is a flat-out lie, or it seemed really true to you at the time but it wasn't true)
I don't mean to offend by suggesting #3, it's just #3 has happened plenty of times before.
Did you watch the video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dyPiIcLK90 It is 2 minutes, 13 seconds.
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Why do people say God kills? God kills no one....
I also think people who tried to write the bible had a hard time understanding God and therefore it's a little mixed up.
This is why I know Atheists and Agnostics never took the time to get to know God on a personal level....leave the bible alone first off because it is not easy to understand and just believe in God, respect him and believe Jesus died for your sins.
God does kill (as in the case of Haiti) and has killed (atrocities of the OT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA).
God's "holy" and "inerrant" word is described as being "a little mixed up" when Christians realize how ludicrous much of it is.
That is an awful judgment and excuse for you to say atheists never "knew" god. And how correct you are to say, "leave the Bible alone, just believe in Jesus" -- that is exactly the harmful attitude and reality that exists in the Christian world to keep them from ever realizing what a sham the whole thing is.
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Good and evil has nothing to do with right and wrong? What the hell? They're synonyms!! I see you are making an excuse here, conveniently navigating away from the contradiction and blowing smoke.
In any event, I ask you: how does eating a piece of fruit have the power to change the neurons in one's brain? How does eating a piece of fruit magically f*ck up the whole world? How does eating a piece of fruit have the power to transform one's mortality? Your answer: it just does. Reality: it is just like any other mythology story.
Why would god, knowing full well what was going to happen anyway, set up an environment where he knew Adam and Eve would fail? Why would a loving god throw a tree in there that would kill his children? Why did god allow the talking snake to be there (never mind how obviously preposterous the notion of a talking snake is)? God knew what was going to happen, so he set the dominoes in place FOR it to happen. You can't honestly say that Adam and Eve knew the ramifications of their choice, given you yourself said they did not know what good and evil was yet. I guess that doesn't matter, though!
First off knowing evil from good is COMPLETELY different than knowing wrong from right... That's ridiculous for you to say otherwise. The words have two different meanings....
Second, God did not know Adam and Eve would sin. They were perfect. His purpose was for them to have offspring and "fill the earth. It was supposed to stay a paradise. When Eve CHOSE to sin. It was her decision. When Adam followed her, he proved that he loved her more than he loved the creator of all things, including himself. We all have the right to choose. Nothing is predestined. Everyone has freewill. They knew God was their creator and they knew they were suppose to obey him.. but they didn't which led to consequences.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o Everyone posting in this thread should watch it. Though there's lots of swearing in it, it's as hilarious as it is blunt. He's just so charismatic telling his story.
Have watched and added to favorites. :)
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Heh, I know you are only saying this because you feel threatened and attacked. Had we been on "your side", telling stories of how awesome god is, we would not be accused of this! Anyway, who are you to judge what constitutes as something being worthwhile?
I don't feel threatened at all actually. I'm just saying Christians are standing up for what we believe in. Atheists are just bad-mouthing Christianity. I'm just saying I don't spend my time in buddhist or muslim forums telling them how I don't believe it. I think that would be pointless and I would feel pretty dumb.
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3.) It wasn't a "seeming", I was shocked that the evangelist took both of the old mans shoes off without any warning and he spoke to the foot and I saw it grow out.
This is absolutely crazy. Got a video? Has anyone contested this? You can keep believing in magic if you want. I'll keep believing in James Randi...I'm surprised this evangelical didn't contest Mr. Randi. He could have made a million dollars for his church.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo
"Why people are always drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me. I want to be as sure of the real world around me as is possible. You can only attain that to a certain degree, but I want the greatest degree of control. I want to be as aware as I possibly can. That means giving up a lot of my fantasies that might be comforting in some ways but Im willing to give that up to live in an actual real world." (Mr Randi from the video)
I think this sums up why there are non-believers pretty well.
Atheists are just bad-mouthing Christianity. I'm just saying I don't spend my time in buddhist or muslim forums telling them how I don't believe it. I think that would be pointless and I would feel pretty dumb.
Atheists badmouthing Christianity with the weapon of reality? CALL THE COPS! Christians bash every religion known to man and have a ton of bloodshed on their hands throughout history killing off people that don't agree with them. And you call atheists arguing against religion on a forum dumb. C'mon. If you see it as dumb, I'm sure you can see the hypocracy.
We need more religions in this thread besides christianity.
Maybe you need to look at the big scope of things. YOU NEED to DIE! You will be happier in Heaven anyway. He kills your flesh yeah maybe but who likes taking a crap and getting scars and growing old anyway.Life is a test and you miss have FAILED. You make God out to be some psycho killer but in reality you have to die, God will have to use natural disasters to do so. It would be odd if we all died the same way. God doesn't KILL you but just take you home. And what the fu*k are you talking about? There is no God remember?
You have threatened and badmouthed a good member of this forum while showing your lack of intelligence once more. Nice work there, mega-troll.
Besides, who cares don't believe in God but I just hope you know you won't change a believer from believing. Anything you can possibly say we have heard it all before. I am done replying but I hope you can get it through your head.
A.) You can change a believer from believing. You just can't comprehend it.
B.) No they obviously haven't. Read from page 1.
c.) No. You're not. You're a troll. You'll be back. You always come back!
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Atheists badmouthing Christianity with the weapon of reality? CALL THE COPS! Christians bash every religion known to man and have a ton of bloodshed on their hands throughout history killing off people that don't agree with them. And you call atheists arguing against religion on a forum dumb. C'mon. If you see it as dumb, I'm sure you can see the hypocracy.
You're weapon is not reality it is lies. I don't know any Christians who bash other religons and I know I sure don't. I usually respect other peoples beliefs.. But I no longer respect yours. Only because you all have direspected my religion to no end acting like it's make believe nonsense. You Atheists are the only ones who are believeing nonsense one day I hope you will realize that.. but for now it seems you never will.
Why bother arguing against religon? What are you gaining?
All you are trying to do is make people not believe in God... and you have patheitic reasoning to why you are doing it. If you don't believe it then keep it to yourself. I just want you to know you have only made my belief in God stronger. I feel closer to God than ever. You will never ever make me believe there is no God. You can try but I will always know God is the reason we are all here. The first law of thermodynamics basically states you cannot get something from nothing. Therefore the only explanation for this universe in an external force.. I know that external force is God. Maybe one day you will realize that God does exist but if you don't then I guess you will always believe a lie.
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Why bother arguing against religon? What are you gaining?...I guess you will always believe a lie.
We are gaining the possibility of having more people recognize reality -- what is truly true and what our world is actually based on. We bother arguing because we've been there and we can see that believers such as yourself are not thinking clearly. I don't mean to be offensive when I say this, but it is a situation similar to doctors looking in on patients who have mental illnesses. The patients are convinced that what they are experiencing is real, but the doctors who can see reality and have dozens of medical studies to back their claims can clearly observe that the patients are delusional.
I am grateful for the many "atheist" resources available that helped me see reality when I humbly sought them out as a Christian. The people who devote so much time and care to the books, websites, and videos out there that clearly show a humble seeker the real truth are fighting the good fight. These people DO make a difference, as it's amazing how many questions they present that you'll realize you overlooked. They're also happy to take the time to research the things that you yourself may not have bothered to.
That is mind-blowing for you to say that basing one's outlook on reality - what is scientifically tested, rational, and logical - is a "lie"!
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You're weapon is not reality it is lies.
I like queens mental patient example. You're fitting the bill quite well right now (btw it's "Your" not "You're". 'You're' refers as 'you are'. I AM WEAPON!).
I just want you to know you have only made my belief in God stronger.
Seriously, good for you! But this does mean you feel threatened and attacked due to people simply asking questions about your beliefs. I've been here before as well. Do you not see this? Or are you going to tell me you have a vast knowledge of psychology as well, Niles? ;)
The first law of thermodynamics basically states you cannot get something from nothing.
Haven't we gone over this already? This is observable evidence in the present, but who's to say we have discovered every scientific law in the entire universe? We're meer mortals incapable of understanding what's out there yet. Surely you know what I mean?
I know that external force is God.
Oh. Nevermind.
Just "god" or "the christian god"? If you say god, sure! I can reasonably accept that. But the christian god? This is the essence of close-mindedness. "I'm right! Everyone else is wrong!...even though I respect their beliefs! Question me!? Now I'm STRONGER! Because I know I'm right! Just like everyone else! LACEY SMASH!" Do me a favor-- you don't have to do it now or tomorrow, but please step out of your current mindset once in a while to listen to other people and their questions. Don't try to fit it in with your beliefs. Let it remain outside of the shell. Forget your rhetoric as it's not effective. Try to see every angle of it. Because even if you say you have, everyone knows you haven't with the way you're writing.
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but it is a situation similar to doctors looking in on patients who have mental illnesses.
That is mind-blowing for you to say that basing one's outlook on reality - what is scientifically tested, rational, and logical - is a "lie"!
You comparing me to a mentally challeged person is just abserd. I think you have it backwards. Scientists have pulled you away from the truth. Things aren't always what they seem. I know you think that Christianity sounds too crazy to be real but it isn't. Just like when you were in kindergarten and they tell you a caterpillar turns into a butterfly. It sounds crazy that a odd looking crawing insect can turn into a beautiful creature such as a butterfly. If I told you this and there was absolutely NO scientific evidence to prove to you that a caterpilaar turns into a butterfly you would call me crazy. But sense we have seen the caterpillar go into it's coccon and change into a butterfly you have no doubt in your mind that it's true. Well we just have no definite scientific evidence that God exists. But please don't doubt something just because it doesn't sound realistic. I bet if scientists never saw the caterpillar change into a butterfly they would have came up with a theory that sounded perfectly and absolutely correct.. They probably would even have "evidence" To where a butterfly comes from. But they would be telling a lie because a butterfly comes from a caterpillar. God creating this earth isn't as crazy as you are making it sound just because something sounds impossible does not mean it is.
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I like queens mental patient example. You're fitting the bill quite well right now (btw it's "Your" not "You're". 'You're' refers as 'you are'. I AM WEAPON!).
Seriously, good for you! But this does mean you feel threatened and attacked due to people simply asking questions about your beliefs. I've been here before as well. Do you not see this? Or are you going to tell me you have a vast knowledge of psychology as well, Niles? ;)
Try to see every angle of it. Because even if you say you have, everyone knows you haven't with the way you're writing.
I know it's "Your" what is it with you people have you seriously never had a typo? I type very fast and I usually don't overlook what I write.
I honestly am not threatened at all. Everything you have said I have heard before.. maybe I was threatened when I first heard it but honestly nothing you could say could make me feel threatened at this point in my life I already have looked into everything and I know God exists.
I love how you think you know eveything about me... You know nothing. I have doubted God so many times in my life and I have in fact looked on your point of view as well. It's just at this pont I already know what I believe.
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Final notes on the debate:
Dr. Craig (the Christian) brought up several times how we need a foundation for our morals and that by his circular reasoning, that foundation must be god.
Hmm. That is pretty hilarious for him to claim, as we certainly did not get our morals from the Bible! Neither does any "harmless" Christian follow the morals of the Bible. Thank god! Please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA and you'll see what I mean.
Dr. Craig claimed that without god, there are no ultimate morals; that they're all subjective. He acted horrified by this possibility, but the truth is, that's absolutely right. There are no ultimate morals; nothing is inherently "bad", it can only be given the label of bad by an individual. This is a truth that I don't think should be shouted from the rooftops, however, because some idiots will get the wrong idea when learning this. **It is to our advantage** to have certain standards in how we conduct ourselves, if the goal is to survive and try to have a happy life, anyway. We're not going to last very long as a species if we don't have consequences for f*cking each other over, and that is the real foundation of our morals!
Another thing I didn't get is how Dr. Craig stated that god could have used evolution if he wanted to, but then a few breaths later said there is "little" evidence for evolution. He also said that if god made the Big Bang, "how nice of god" to take so much time to craft the universe just for us. This is what Christians like to do; when they get blown out of the water by science, they'll take ownership of something like evolution as a Plan B for how god did it, even though their Bible clearly says that animals and man were made separately (and within a week time frame, I might add).
Who are you to assume that the Bible must be littered with asterisks (what I mean is, what gives you the authority to "read between the lines" and make sh*t up when you're clearly contradicted by science?). Christians are starting to act like the whole freaking Bible is a metaphor, when really that is just an excuse because secretly they know that talking snakes and stuffing all of the animals of the world on a boat (in addition to a zillion other examples) is nonsense.
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I love how you think you know eveything about me... You know nothing. I have doubted God so many times in my life and I have in fact looked on your point of view as well. It's just at this pont I already know what I believe.
Like I was stating with my scientific examples, I'm going by with what I have to work with. But when you said 'at this point', I now have more respect for you. Not that I'm trying to make you believe in the devil or anything...I just took it as you're more open then you make yourself out to be. :)
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Like I was stating with my scientific examples, I'm going by with what I have to work with. But when you said 'at this point', I now have more respect for you. Not that I'm trying to make you believe in the devil or anything...I just took it as you're more open then you make yourself out to be. :)
Well I actually said "at this pont." Lol but thanks for not pointing out that typo as well.
I was never trying to make myself out to sound not open.. Because honestly I am an open minded person it's just Christianity is what I believe in and I am going to stand up for my beliefs.
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Why didn't you say you believe doctors?? There's a doctor that has had patients become clinically dead...and then come back. While stories of people who die and "see a bright light" are very common, there aren't very many people that want to admit they went to hell like these people did, and the doctor documented it all and put it in his books.
I'm curious so I have just a few quick questions-- Is it just one doctor promoting this? Is/was he christian? Are there others with different beliefs working with him that threw in with his ideas? I'm just very skeptical of a video on medical stories that starts with a verse from the bible is all.
Also, I've had a NDE (5 years old, ripped my spleen open, bleeding internally bad, started coughing up blood, passed out after a while) when I was a kid and had weird visions when I passed out involving people shooting strange-colored fireworks at night that popped into 'triangular' images of Darth Vader. I was a big star wars fan obviously. Is it possible that these people are just so in love with the Christian ideas that their minds play similar images of what they love as it did mine?
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Is it possible that these people are just so in love with the Christian ideas that their minds play similar images of what they love as it did mine?
No that's not a possibility considering many of these people didn't even believe in god and if you watched the video Sheryl provided a man talked about hell. He obviously didn't love the idea of hell but saw it.
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Since I watched the entire 2 hour debate that Lacey linked to and am open to looking at anything anyone else posts, could any of you do me the kindness of being open-minded yourselves?
Here are some of my favorite educational YouTube vids. Most are 2-5 minutes, although a few are 10. You can watch them in order, or jump around to the ones on the topics you are most interested in.
Religion: Man's Flaw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWA8uL2U_4o (9:56) <-- most important video of all
Confessions of a former Christian - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq5TWTTPHF8 (5:12)
Evolution evidence and "gaps" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nTnjx-JRzE (10:12)
Why religion isn't harmless - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYNNzdqFKOQ (2:33)
Why you shouldn't say god answered your prayers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dyPiIcLK90 (2:13)
Why we don't get our morals from the Bible - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA (9:28)
Pascal's wager - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcWdV0LYG4 (5:38)
Everyone's a little bit atheist - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09LbMMv2xTU (2:04)
"Traditional marriage" according to the Bible - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw (4:15)
The story of Suzie: cartoon of Christian life (satire) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd7iXASIOdA (3:31)
How to be a good creationist (satire) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D-oN5Ybb9s (6:34)
If you have any thoughts or want more links, let me know.
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Since I watched the entire 2 hour debate that Lacey linked to and am open to looking at anything anyone else posts, could any of you do me the kindness of being open-minded yourselves?
I watched all of your videos just to let you know.
Quick question is the person in "Everyone's a little athiest" male or female?
It's bothering me. Oh and for future references please don't give anymore videos of whiny youtubers... ugh so annoying. I just want educational stuff.
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Quick question is the person in "Everyone's a little athiest" male or female?
It's bothering me. Oh and for future references please don't give anymore videos of whiny youtubers... ugh so annoying. I just want educational stuff.
Male. It sucks that he is hurting his case in some instances because that's only what people will see (that he's gay) instead of actually processing the intelligent things he is saying.
As for "whiny Youtubers"...I don't mean to offend, but I think that is an excuse to not really listen and process what they're saying. "I think god has a special place in hell for smart asses" was one of the comments on the Suzie video, for example, when in reality, all that the videos are doing is pointing out what's really going on (albeit, I can understand why they may be offensive to believers that still value their faith). They weren't all whiny Youtubers...the very first vid wasn't whiny, but still presented it's information in an interesting way.
I don't know about you, but I'm victim to our instantaneous society and I'd much rather watch videos that are "fun" when it comes to presenting their information than long scientific or history drones. That does not mean I don't value videos of that nature, it's just certain formats are easier to relate to and understand. Unfortunately these videos and all of their good points can quickly be tossed aside by the label that the video producer is a smart *bleep*.
You may be surprised to know that I did not consult any videos at all as a Christian seeking answers back in 2007. I was compelled entirely by written resources, and only found all of these YouTube videos well after I left Christianity. They still help me learn things (like about evolution) or bring up more evidence against god that I wasn't aware of when I first made the switch.
For non-video resources, I recommend http://www.godisimaginary.com and http://www.evilbible.com. I have the desire to go back and re-read these websites in their entirety, as when I brought up the godisimaginary link, someone accused that website of being like a "your mama" joke and I was like what?? The points brought up by these webmasters played a part in convincing this once-Christian! I fear such websites will be compared to creationist ones, in which case I encourage you to read books by Richard Dawkins or whatever you would consider "respectable" that is on the atheist side. As for me, I am still capable of recognizing intelligence and what is truly true, even when the source is from an "average" person.
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No that's not a possibility considering many of these people didn't even believe in god and if you watched the video Sheryl provided a man talked about hell. He obviously didn't love the idea of hell but saw it.
But I didn't love the idea of people shooting fireworks that made the face of the evil Lord Vader! As queen stated, our brains are not functioning properly when this happens, so we were merely experiencing strange hallucinations of things we love/hate/fear. We've both experienced it (her obviously much worse than I did) so we have a good idea of what we saw and since we're fine now, we can decypher it. Simply put, we lived it and have the ability to sniff the bs. I would say from the descriptions that the creator of this video took a deceptive approach and only took the material that aligned with his/her belief system and disregarded anyone else with a Darth Vader story.
Queenof9's health NDE post
Wow that's awful. But I'm glad you're much better now. It's good that one side of the argument has more than 1 source of knowledge on the subject at hand. Anorexia is obviously horrible but I've never known anyone who had it. If I may ask, what induced it? If I'm digging into a scar, no worries-- forget I asked.
God threatened to shave my head once if i didn't start talking again because at 16 I fell into a walking coma and went catatonic and had a nervous breakdown. I could write a very long and detailed post of all the things I seen and heard and thought and what was going on but don't think I will.
That's awful too. Strangely enough I wouldn't mind hearing your story if you keep it short and simple. I promise I even won't call you a troll (unless you go nuts in your reasoning like in the past).
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I'm not sure exactly why (the reason) you wanted me to watch that particular video... My first thoughts on it was the girl was acting like a immature child does when someone else gets what they wanted for Christmas, so they throw a "tantrum". My second thought was---I sure hope you aren't basing your soul's eternal destination on You-Tube videos such as this because...she doesn't seem to be a reliable source as to whether or not God exists, but she seems to be a great "drama queen".
The reason I point to a specific video for a specific religious topic is because a lot of the time, other intelligent people can say it much better than I can. They are a lot quicker, more detailed, and more compelling than my words in a paragraph can be. I can know all of the things they say are true but find it harder to put into words and articulate like they can. I admire my husband because he speaks so freely, intelligently, and convincingly when it comes to religion. I am always like, "Damn! Smackdown! I wish I was as quick on my feet as he is!" I think this way about many of the people in the videos as well.
I have heard that claim from Christians as well - that as atheists, we're spoiled children if we question the effectiveness of prayer. You leave it at that and don't even bother really thinking about our point of all the evil in the world. If you do, once again there are superficial, ignorant excuses about a fruit and a talking snake and all of this hell is part of "god's plan".
What would you consider to be a reliable source for god's existence? A 2,000-year-old book filled with obvious wrongs? She appears to be a "drama queen" because 1) her style offends your faith and/or 2) you don't approve of that style of intelligence and humor.
No, I never consulted YouTube videos at all when I stopped being a Christian.
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* The effectiveness of prayer--Speaking only for myself, I know when God has answered a prayer because He does it in ways that leave no room for "guess". The timing, the details, the answer always has God's "signature" on it and sometimes his sense of humor as well.
I will agree there's alot of evil in the world. What are you doing about it? (Serious question). Where do you think all the evil in the world is coming from? (Again, serious question).
I will watch the hell video this weekend. In the meantime, these are my thoughts on the subject of hell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A8_X3Azp3I (6:00) It's not done by that girl. ;)
Can you give an example of a prayer in your life where there was no room for a "guess"? Because as a Christian I thought the same way in regards to when good things that happened in my life, and I even went so far as to notice that it was funny how it worked out as well.
I'll give you an example of a prayer I remember: I prayed for god to send my mother a Christian man and a horse because I thought those things would make her happy. Some time after I learned she was engaged and had also bought a horse. I talked to my future stepfather on the phone and point-blank asked him if he was a Christian, and he said yes. I was like, "Wow! God answered my prayer!"
In reality, statistically most of us WILL marry. Also, statistically most Americans ARE Christians. She met him at work and was developing a relationship long before I prayed about it. And my mom always wanted to get a horse again, and it's not like it was given to her as a gift - she went out and bought it. The thing is, Christians will take this coincidence of timing as evidence for god, when it is not!
As for mountains of evil in the world, I really can't relate to how Christians can honestly think that mankind is deserving of the severe degree of evil that we experience. How can you think that god is honestly doing enough? He clearly isn't. You make the excuse that things being so freaking horrible will be "worth it in the end". That's really the best excuse I can get from the all-powerful, "all-loving" god?
Where do I think evil comes from? As I said before, we as a species define what "evil" is based on what's best for survival. People have their different motivations for why they do bad things. Sometimes it's religion and people thinking it's their god that they're justified in doing bad things. A lot of people are raised by uncaring parents or are poor or are not that intelligent for a bunch of reasons that we can't see and that contributes to them stealing and raping and killing and not thinking twice about how fragile life is. Everyone is trying to make the best of some very hard questions like what the hell is the point of my being here; unfortunately, some of us are not equipped as well as others mentally or in our environments to conduct ourselves in a healthy way.
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He also a self-described atheist . . .
I just want to quickly point out that I was a self-described atheist prior to my being a Christian and now I am just an atheist (not self-described ;) ). I can agree to the term "self-described" when I was an atheist the first time because as I've said before, I wasn't raised religiously and could see no evidence in my everyday life for this god/Jesus that was mentioned. A very true and good reason for being an atheist, but that was my only reason! (what can we really expect though, I was a 13-year-old sh*t)
I did not have any of the information I do now about science, the moral objections to the Christian god, the atrocities of the Bible, etc. So when I point-blank chose to give god a try after experiencing my traumatic life event (anorexia), it was very easy to be swept away by the emotions and speeches that seemed to be "so true" at the "fun" churches I went to afterward because I still only had that one reason to NOT believe in god. You can be easily brainwashed to not think about the most obvious things; you can be trained to not question god and the fallible things he stands for if you really need a god/heaven to be happy.
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Lacey, good video that just came out about the Big Bang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PqJ2eEzD3o
It is entirely educational in nature, except for the last few seconds. :)
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Is it because of one of these reasons you don't believe in the almighty?
1. Not relevant or logical
2. Everyone kills in the name of religion
3. People make money off of religion or it's a tradition thing
4. People all over the world don't believe the same thing
Are any of this the reason you guys don't believe?
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Queens post
Yeah schools in america don't teach too much about health and sex as much as they should. Would you call it more of a motivation or an addiction to not eating in this case? Anyway, atleast you're better!
The thing is, Christians will take this coincidence of timing as evidence for god, when it is not!
I'll second this too with a quick story. My neighbor growing up didn't like the idea of my family being JW (evangelical nutcase story here). So she prayed on and off for what was probably years. Years after I stopped going, my parents quit going and my mom strangely started studying in Mormonism (ugh...). So one day I was talking to my neighbor about how they quit and she just put her hand on her heart and raised her voice "Oh my god! My prayers were answered! I was praying for so long for them to get out of that place!" and then I smiled and said "Yeah. She's a mormon now!" and her face went from :D to :o and I started laughing. She thought I was joking. But I hope that was some form of wake up call to her in the form of this quote above.
Is it because of one of these reasons you don't believe in the almighty?
1. Not relevant or logical
2. Everyone kills in the name of religion
3. People make money off of religion or it's a tradition thing
4. People all over the world don't believe the same thing
Are any of this the reason you guys don't believe?
Watchtower trickery's afoot...tread carefully, non-christians.
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Queens post
Yeah schools in america don't teach too much about health and sex as much as they should. Would you call it more of a motivation or an addiction to not eating in this case? Anyway, atleast you're better!
The thing is, Christians will take this coincidence of timing as evidence for god, when it is not!
I'll second this too with a quick story. My neighbor growing up didn't like the idea of my family being JW (evangelical nutcase story here). So she prayed on and off for what was probably years. Years after I stopped going, my parents quit going and my mom strangely started studying in Mormonism (ugh...). So one day I was talking to my neighbor about how they quit and she just put her hand on her heart and raised her voice "Oh my god! My prayers were answered! I was praying for so long for them to get out of that place!" and then I smiled and said "Yeah. She's a mormon now!" and her face went from :D to :o and I started laughing. She thought I was joking. But I hope that was some form of wake up call to her in the form of this quote above.
Is it because of one of these reasons you don't believe in the almighty?
1. Not relevant or logical
2. Everyone kills in the name of religion
3. People make money off of religion or it's a tradition thing
4. People all over the world don't believe the same thing
Are any of this the reason you guys don't believe?
Watchtower trickery's afoot...tread carefully, non-christians.
Watchtower is a bible word Genesis 31:49, can long before pagans invented it
Also I didn't get that off the watchtower site I made that up myself seriously though is anyone going to answer it?
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Yeah, sure. I'll try to assume a role of both atheist and agnostic. If anyone who are either of these groups wants to add/remove certain parts, go ahead.
1. Not relevant or logical
2. Everyone kills in the name of religion
3. People make money off of religion or it's a tradition thing
4. People all over the world don't believe the same thing
1.) When basing things on faith in the physical realm, it does seem quite illogical. Simply by our nature, we like to have testable and realistic evidence on things. When we don't, we make things up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1YiDN8MT9w here's a quick 2 minute video that explains it very well. Do watch. An atheist is just a person who has no invisible means of support. Relevence comes from each individual though so I can't say anything on that.
2.) Everyone? No, not everyone. I certainly didn't! 8) But through history, practically every major religion has their hands covered in blood. Why? Because "god" commanded it. But to an atheist or ag, "the man" commanded it using god as a motivator. You can argue that this is not what god wants, but even in the bible he commits horrifying acts against people including children. Sometimes for very childish reasons. So both mythically and realistically-- whichever you choose, there's plenty of killing going on.
3.) Besides the whole "faith and comfort" and "keeping people in line" variables, this is all it is.
4.) They don't. I don't think there's an approximate number of how many religions are out there since they are always separating and fusing with eachother but I'd imagine it's a 5 or 6 digit number. So who's to say your mindset is the right one? Your holy text? From an atheist or ag standpoint, yours is just as meaningful as the rest of them despite your attachment to your own.
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1. I believe newton was quite rational no, he studied the bible was he irrational? The majority of his inventions and scientific endeavors was to find god. As for your video i'm sorry but I can't play youtube vidoes on windows 2000.
2. It's true during the mosiac law god permitted killing of gentile nations for the davidic line to remain safe so Jesus can come. It's also true there were severe judgments made onto anyone who served god and didn't prove faithful or nations who serve the ba'als and the chemosh etc who did not repent. It's a good thing we are not living in the law today ^_^ (Romans 10:4). Faith without works is still dead however but at thanks to his son Jesus god is much, much more merciful. Today "those who take the sword will perish by the sword"(Matthew 26:52), Jesus himself said that to one of his followers who tried to defend Jesus by fighting with a sword. Yes happy we are that the law of christ is very forgiving.
3. You really think that's all it is? Do you really think all the archaeological evidence is just a bunch of stones and gibberish and tan paper? As far as faith goes yes I agree religious hypocrisy has put faith over works instead of balancing works with the faith thus becoming hypocritical and not teaching anyone accurate knowledge.
4. All holy texts have almost the same story so it's really not that hard to study with a muslim and find a commom ground. The majority of faiths believe that the flood came, Jesus existed etc. Did I mention the JW's will study with anyone of any background, religion, etc. "A wise person once told me what do you tell a buddhist?" "Preach the good news of the kingdom". "What do you tell a muslim?" "Preach the good news of the kingdom". "What do you tell an atheist?" "Preach the good news of the kingdom"^_^. I think I finally understand you guys now, you see religious hypocrisy, illogical, and self-righteous because one religion believes it's the true religion. I have an awesome science book I can give you guys, there is not one scripture in the whole book it's straight science and I also can get you a book that's all about mankind's search for god all free hit me up at Facebook and search kevin massaline ^_^.
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
Amen to that! Very well put.
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1. I believe newton was quite rational no, he studied the bible was he irrational? The majority of his inventions and scientific endeavors was to find god. As for your video i'm sorry but I can't play youtube vidoes on windows 2000.
I didn't say it was irrational. If someone thinks up a new hypothesis of finding god and wants to find supporting evidence of it, go ahead. That's not irrational as they're trying to simply test it in the physical world. But if Newton said "I believe there's a god, therefore it's a scientific law now!" with no findings/proof, that would be irrational. And guess what all major religions do all the time? When the Apollo rockets went up, one video of the world showed a cloud formation that looked vaguely like "Allah" and till this day they use it as undeniable evidence. Sad.
(As far as youtube goes, try this unless you have already-- http://en.kioskea.net/forum/affich-97468-flash-10-won-t-play-youtube-video#p97482 )
Faith without works is still dead however but at thanks to his son Jesus god is much, much more merciful. Today "those who take the sword will perish by the sword"(Matthew 26:52), Jesus himself said that to one of his followers who tried to defend Jesus by fighting with a sword. Yes happy we are that the law of christ is very forgiving.
If you believe the stories, the blood is still there. The deeds were done. Jesus and his pop run a fantastic hypocracy if you're using a 'that was then, this is now' approach. Do you believe that's okay because god did it? We can't question a supreme being?
You really think that's all it is? Do you really think all the archaeological evidence is just a bunch of stones and gibberish and tan paper?
I actually saw the Dead Sea Scrolls with my own eyes. It looked like a bunch of gibberish to me, but that's just because I couldn't read it! lol I'm just saying if you're going to believe a bunch of primitive gullibles that created and passed on ludicrous stories, you'd better have some fantastic evidence to support that those supernatural events happened. Earlier in this thread someone tried to show proof that they had found Noahs Ark, but it looks exactly like a stratavolcano. Things like this aren't undeniable evidence. Note the picture I attached to my post.
All holy texts have almost the same story so it's really not that hard to study with a muslim and find a commom ground.
And would it be surprising to you if many of these stories stemmed from a bunch of Sumerian myths? Or even earlier primitive and nomadic cultures?
Did I mention the JW's will study with anyone of any background, religion, etc
As much as a great sales pitch this is, my whole family was JW and their emphasis on keeping away from everything 'worldly' hideously effected me and my JW friends growing up. They practically hiss at anyone not following their rules when you get into it. My good friend has dedicated a lot of time easily proving that it has some terrible problems with both its creation and the belief systems (1914 anyone? But of course they have a ton of cop-outs for that awful lie). I've heard it all before.
I have an awesome science book I can give you guys, there is not one scripture in the whole book it's straight science and I also can get you a book that's all about mankind's search for god all free
Is it that little blue one from the 80's or did they update it finally?
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2. The rewards back then was life itself, you served him correctly you lived you didn't you died that was that. There's always a reason however, shame he gave his son for us all and all you can think about is the mosiac law which no one is under, he was kind enough to remove that law something WE DEFINITELY DON'T DESERVE.
3. If seeing a papyrus that's a couple of thousand years ago doesn't strengthen one's faith I don't know what does. Conspiracy theory with the wild beasts?
4. Man after tower of babel was built religion got broken off into many smaller often sun-worship esque religions.
5. I don't know any other christian denomination during the world wars that suffered imprisonment for 1260 days. Can you tell me at least one??
6. There is no little blue book from the 80's the creation book was made in the 90's anyway mankind's search for god will really help you understand how the different views of religion came about including your sumerian DOGMA.
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Is it because of one of these reasons you don't believe in the almighty?
1. Not relevant or logical
2. Everyone kills in the name of religion
3. People make money off of religion or it's a tradition thing
4. People all over the world don't believe the same thing
Are any of this the reason you guys don't believe?
There are literally hundreds of reasons I don't believe in god, not just one primary reason. The ones listed above certainly factor in there, but like I said, there are hundreds more. Also having been a true subscriber to the god mindset in the past helps me see how delusional it is.
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Would you call it more of a motivation or an addiction to not eating in this case?
Addiction.
I'll second this too with a quick story. My neighbor growing up didn't like the idea of my family being JW (evangelical nutcase story here). So she prayed on and off for what was probably years. Years after I stopped going, my parents quit going and my mom strangely started studying in Mormonism (ugh...). So one day I was talking to my neighbor about how they quit and she just put her hand on her heart and raised her voice "Oh my god! My prayers were answered! I was praying for so long for them to get out of that place!" and then I smiled and said "Yeah. She's a mormon now!" and her face went from :D to :o and I started laughing. She thought I was joking. But I hope that was some form of wake up call to her in the form of this quote above.
That's funny. :)
Seems this thread has quieted down lately...some people aren't coming around anymore. :(
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The rewards back then was life itself, you served him correctly you lived you didn't you died that was that. There's always a reason however, shame he gave his son for us all and all you can think about is the mosiac law which no one is under, he was kind enough to remove that law something WE DEFINITELY DON'T DESERVE.
From our standpoints, you're living a non-existant burden. We don't deserve to not be threatened by an immature god who has a fascination to murder people that don't agree with him? Correction- we don't deserve to be threatened by an invisible force who is capable of such horrific atrocities.
If seeing a papyrus that's a couple of thousand years ago doesn't strengthen one's faith I don't know what does. Conspiracy theory with the wild beasts?
It's old paper. From what I understand, the only significance of it was for comparisons from the original texts to what we have now. Old myths from thousands of years ago are still myths.
Man after tower of babel was built religion got broken off into many smaller often sun-worship esque religions.
...or could this possibly be a convenient way to summarize why we have different languages? If you were to watch that 2-minute youtube video I sent earlier, you would understand completely what I mean. Unless you have any formal education in linguistics history?
I don't know any other christian denomination during the world wars that suffered imprisonment for 1260 days. Can you tell me at least one??
Why did you post this? Don't play the sympathy card here. JW's always use this example. There's no reason for it.
There is no little blue book from the 80's the creation book was made in the 90's anyway mankind's search for god will really help you understand how the different views of religion came about including your sumerian DOGMA.
What does this new one look like?
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The rewards back then was life itself, you served him correctly you lived you didn't you died that was that. There's always a reason however, shame he gave his son for us all and all you can think about is the mosiac law which no one is under, he was kind enough to remove that law something WE DEFINITELY DON'T DESERVE.
From our standpoints, you're living a non-existant burden. We don't deserve to not be threatened by an immature god who has a fascination to murder people that don't agree with him? Correction- we don't deserve to be threatened by an invisible force who is capable of such horrific atrocities.
If seeing a papyrus that's a couple of thousand years ago doesn't strengthen one's faith I don't know what does. Conspiracy theory with the wild beasts?
It's old paper. From what I understand, the only significance of it was for comparisons from the original texts to what we have now. Old myths from thousands of years ago are still myths.
Man after tower of babel was built religion got broken off into many smaller often sun-worship esque religions.
...or could this possibly be a convenient way to summarize why we have different languages? If you were to watch that 2-minute youtube video I sent earlier, you would understand completely what I mean. Unless you have any formal education in linguistics history?
I don't know any other christian denomination during the world wars that suffered imprisonment for 1260 days. Can you tell me at least one??
Why did you post this? Don't play the sympathy card here. JW's always use this example. There's no reason for it.
There is no little blue book from the 80's the creation book was made in the 90's anyway mankind's search for god will really help you understand how the different views of religion came about including your sumerian DOGMA.
What does this new one look like?
1. We definietely deserve to be subject to our creator who made everything for us, the fact that he gave Adam and Eve and everyone else a choice to serve him proves his loving kindness. However, disobeying the creator back then was denying your life, it was the main punishment for Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit.
Genesis 2:1 reads 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” They had plenty to eat from besides that tree, but Satan intervened and Adam and Eve believed the lie and they sinned.
Genesis 3:4 Reads 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”
Even then some people will still comeback even if they didn't serve God, they may have been just good people.
Acts 24:15 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
If Acts 24:15 and the fact that he gave his only begotten son for our sins in John 3:16 doesn't prove that he is not partial, I don't know what does.
2. Myths? Do you want me to show you some prophecies that came true in bible times and are being fulfilled today?
3. It was far more then a summary of how different languages came about it was the birth of the babylon, babylonish religions and "babylon the great's" many other teachings which all people should know and study christian or not. That way you won't get trapped in it's teachings.
4. Oh it's far more than playing the sympathy card it's outright prophecy. Many historians outside the JW's will tell you how the JW's zealously preached the good news during the wars, remain politically neutral and stood firm to their faith even under imprisonment for 1260 days. The rest of the christians supported the wars and the ones that did not support the war did not preach. In no way is the holy city literal as the holy city got destroyed and this "trampling lasted more then 1260 days", hebrews tells you that the temple sanctuary or most holy is heaven itself and the inner courtyard represents righteous standing of the holy ones Romans 1:7. Measuring in scripture prophecy means rendering gods standards.
Now that you know the code read Revelation 11:2 please 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
5. So fine, the book was made in 1990 and it's white with a blue center the principal is still the same, they also have a new DVD about creation that was made last year, the other one mankind's search was made in 1998, only 14 years old it's still good information.
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yes all u have do is look at every thing a round to see that it could not have happen by chance their had 2 be some one 2 make it be tha way that it is .
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(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/walksalone11/smileys/Gun.gif)
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the fact that he gave Adam and Eve and everyone else a choice to serve him proves his loving kindness.
Oh factual is it? Ahh...nostalgia...that's when I remember the good ol' days when I believed the evil talking snake demon and magical happy paradise places and a man made from dirt and a woman made from a rib. As mean as it sounds, I'll say if this is how you're going to start your debates arguing the logic of the bible, I highly recommend rethinking your strategy for convincing every day people. I'm just trying to help you not get as many of those doors shutting infront of you every saturday morning.
2. Myths? Do you want me to show you some prophecies that came true in bible times and are being fulfilled today?
No. I vaguely remember and they were all like the writings of Nostradamus. That mathematical solution to get 1914 had me scratching my head when it was explained to me. Where the variables were taken didn't make any sense. Unless it was written down and explained perfectly and realistically with undeniable precision and not through vague animal-representation or hilariously broad reasonings, you will not convice many.
Many historians outside the JW's will tell you how the JW's zealously preached the good news during the wars, remain politically neutral and stood firm to their faith even under imprisonment for 1260 days. The rest of the christians supported the wars and the ones that did not support the war did not preach.
So you're saying you'd rather have the Third Reich trample over the world rather than have people fight it including those that are christian? Oh, but it's all in the grand plan of things, isn't it? This is all supposed to happen. How convenient.
This is one of the JW's crippling problems in their beliefs. Rather than take part in the world, they simply do nothing besides preach. They are encouraged to not vote, not join any military, not educate themselves and instead "Go Pioneer!" (holy hell I have some horror stories of people), not take part in any other community but their own, not involve themselves in holidays or birthdays...etc. etc. Every single one of these things is ridiculously fallible and hypocritical seeing it from outside the box of JW's. It's an excuse not to do anything and then sit around and play the blame game to make themselves look most holy. Every single one of the people I grew up with-- now 20 year olds to 60 year olds-- who left that church will tell you the same thing because they were smart enough to figure it out. And, fortunately, the majority of the church-goers did.
Sorry to sound pessimistic above, but I just saw a lot of negative things at that church.
Edit: Erg...yes, Walksalone. Me too.
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the fact that he gave Adam and Eve and everyone else a choice to serve him proves his loving kindness.
I don't know how believers get off on thinking that believing god is a "choice". Because if you don't acknowledge god but live an otherwise decent and good life, you're going to burn forever! Believe = you're cool. Don't believe = hell fire. That is not a choice!!
Fortunately, those that are intelligent enough to examine the evidence know that there is no hell or god, anyway. :)
Believers...seriously...how can you support the concept of endless torture?? While it's certainly a good brainwashing tool to admit new converts, those who are capable of stopping to think for a sec know that is evidence AGAINST there being a god!
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yes all u have do is look at every thing a round to see that it could not have happen by chance their had 2 be some one 2 make it be tha way that it is .
Educate yourself!!! This is not true!
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Sheryl's prayer
First of all, thanks for taking the time to answer my question. May I suggest that you start employing the use of paragraph breaks, though, as that will make your material much easier to read. Thanks.
While it is certainly a fortunate thing that happened for you and you have the right to feel happy, no part of it was evidence for god. Statistically, there are thousands (if not millions) of people with a similar story that never prayed for it in the first place. If your story were true, how could an atheist ever have a successful business (many of whom started out with little money as well)? Everything you described is JUST HOW THE WORLD WORKS. It is entirely an example of "coincidence of timing" that Christians are so famous for. Atheists can and do have many "coincidences of timing", too!
Christians count the "hits" of their prayers and ignore the "misses". What they really need to be thinking about is why god never does anything that is truly miraculous; that is, something that is simply impossible in our physical world, but of course WOULD be possible for god.
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the fact that he gave Adam and Eve and everyone else a choice to serve him proves his loving kindness.
Oh factual is it? Ahh...nostalgia...that's when I remember the good ol' days when I believed the evil talking snake demon and magical happy paradise places and a man made from dirt and a woman made from a rib. As mean as it sounds, I'll say if this is how you're going to start your debates arguing the logic of the bible, I highly recommend rethinking your strategy for convincing every day people. I'm just trying to help you not get as many of those doors shutting infront of you every saturday morning.
2. Myths? Do you want me to show you some prophecies that came true in bible times and are being fulfilled today?
No. I vaguely remember and they were all like the writings of Nostradamus. That mathematical solution to get 1914 had me scratching my head when it was explained to me. Where the variables were taken didn't make any sense. Unless it was written down and explained perfectly and realistically with undeniable precision and not through vague animal-representation or hilariously broad reasonings, you will not convice many.
Many historians outside the JW's will tell you how the JW's zealously preached the good news during the wars, remain politically neutral and stood firm to their faith even under imprisonment for 1260 days. The rest of the christians supported the wars and the ones that did not support the war did not preach.
So you're saying you'd rather have the Third Reich trample over the world rather than have people fight it including those that are christian? Oh, but it's all in the grand plan of things, isn't it? This is all supposed to happen. How convenient.
This is one of the JW's crippling problems in their beliefs. Rather than take part in the world, they simply do nothing besides preach. They are encouraged to not vote, not join any military, not educate themselves and instead "Go Pioneer!" (holy hell I have some horror stories of people), not take part in any other community but their own, not involve themselves in holidays or birthdays...etc. etc. Every single one of these things is ridiculously fallible and hypocritical seeing it from outside the box of JW's. It's an excuse not to do anything and then sit around and play the blame game to make themselves look most holy. Every single one of the people I grew up with-- now 20 year olds to 60 year olds-- who left that church will tell you the same thing because they were smart enough to figure it out. And, fortunately, the majority of the church-goers did.
Sorry to sound pessimistic above, but I just saw a lot of negative things at that church.
Edit: Erg...yes, Walksalone. Me too.
@Queenofnines: Your right there is no hellfire that's a lie made by the churches and it comes from babylonish teachings and not the bible. Also your right choosing to disobey God was choosing death but it was still a choice. They choose to live a finite and hard life instead of living forever and being around for countless billions of years. The command was not unreasonable, all Adam and Eve had to do was not eat from 1 tree out of a garden that had many trees!!!!! One TREE, that's all they had to do but no, they choose to disobey god by listening to satan's lie and believing that they will be like god, knowing good and bad. I think your reasoning is telling you eaten from one tree did all of that? Quite a severe punishment for one tree? But your wrong see they were perfect, they knew that they were disobeying God, Eve even paraphrased the what God told her!!!! in Genesis 3:4. It sucks but through one man sin got passed down to all of us(Romans 6:23). However through one man God's sovereignty will be vinicated(1 Corinthians 15:20-28) and then we will be free from sin because God's kingdom through Jesus will make us all perfect even if it does take one day in God's eyes which is 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5-6).
1. Satan started out as a snake now he's a full-fledged 7-headed 10-horned dragon who is ruling through the earthly "powers" right now(Revelation 12:3,9)(Revelation 13:2). As for all life being made from dirt seriously what do all living creation on Earth decompose to?? Oh yeah that's right DIRT. Oh and I will always rely on the bible instead of man-made philosophy, it's a snare that's easy for anyone to fall in it's probably Satan's greatest trap. Oh and please Don't worry about being to mean or anything, I need all the practice I can get before I go door-to-door i'm in theocratic ministry school and not unbaptized publisher yet.
2. Vague animal representation are you serious? It seems like you didn't do a lot of personal studying on your own, correct me if i'm wrong. Ok, i'll show you scriptural proof why the beasts are meant to be taken as political powers. Consider this scripture that talks about the political powers of Media, Persia and Greece before it happen!!!
Daniel 8:20-22 reads 20 “The ram that you saw possessing the two horns [stands for] the kings of Me´di·a and Persia. 21 And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it [stands for] the first king. 22 And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power.
I think conspiracy theorists would agree with this scripture as it tells you that a "two-horned" wild beast or dual power is in charge of the "first" wild beast who got destroyed and then came back or death-stroke got healed as the bible puts it and it should even make "fire" come out of heaven!!!! Weather manipulation??!!! maybe??!!?!!!!! There's plenty of symbols that refer to the U.N. I mean images of the wild beast 0_0. How many times have people been assasinated who didn't agree with the U.S.? Ok, I think you can understand the code now so read please.
(Revelation 13:11-15) 11 And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. 12 And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and those who dwell in it worship the first wild beast, whose death-stroke got healed. 13 And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.
14 And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast.
3. Lol, all the stuff your complaining about are from the bible. The kingdoms are Satan's how else could he give Jesus all of these kingdom's if Satan didn't own them. Why should we help the governments I mean kingdoms with the voting. If anything seeing how Bush cheated his way into office should prove this!!!!!! Also I found out that Bush Sr. Financed hitler's war!!!!!! By joining an army to fight in a war christians will be supporting a war that Satan authorized for christians and not God. Obviously not following Jesus' stance on neutrality.
Matthew 4:8 Reads 8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” Go back up and read Revelation 13:11-15 again!!!!
There's nothing wrong with education, however too much time away learning in Satan's world could get you mixed up in philosophy.
not take part in any other community but their own. Ok now your slandering. The JW's have supported many disaster reliefs such as the false flag 9/11 attack.
All birthdays and holidays venerate a world ruler or venerate spiritistic teachings, the hallmarks of babylon the great!!! My dear fallen star revelation reference 0_0 do some research on the holidays as they are nothing but modern-day spiritistic revelries.
Wow I guess your saying the apostles didn't do anything either because they didn't vote, practice spiritistic revelries, didn't get a lot of secular education, didn't join the army ETC... Heck Jesus did a little blame game himself when it came to upholding his father sovereignty even calling some of them the pharisees(who thought Jesus was a trinity btw) and Sadducees hypocrites! As for preaching all the time that's a lie, when they're not preaching they're inviting people to gatherings, eating at restaurants, going to movies etc.
Hey, everyone has to make the decision whether to be a friend of the world or not. Also everyone must choose who to slave for cause you can't slave for 2 masters(Matthew 6:24). As for majority of Church-goers who are you referring to the JW's or christendom?
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So I'm going to have to lumberjack your post here...
Satan started out as a snake now he's a full-fledged 7-headed 10-horned dragon who is ruling through the earthly "powers" right now
This is what I was talking about. Your arguments are parallel to explaining the existence of Madusa, Harpies, or the Cyclops from Greek Myth to people if they hear you say this and are skeptical of the bible.
As for all life being made from dirt seriously what do all living creation on Earth decompose to?? Oh yeah that's right DIRT.
This would make sense if we were talking about death. Not life. I'd accept stardust as an answer though!
Oh and I will always rely on the bible instead of man-made philosophy, it's a snare that's easy for anyone to fall in it's probably Satan's greatest trap.
There's nothing wrong with education, however too much time away learning in Satan's world could get you mixed up in philosophy.
What a convenient cop-out to shield yourself from education, personal thought, and human advancement. If you were alive 500 years ago, I'd wager a lot on you praising the house-arrest of Galileo due to his findings not aligning with the bibles philosophy.
It seems like you didn't do a lot of personal studying on your own, correct me if i'm wrong.
Granted it has been a long time, but I remember a bit of it. And these are all vague animal descriptions that could be aligned with any (to-be) historical significance just like the writings of Nostradamus.
Why should we help the governments I mean kingdoms with the voting. If anything seeing how Bush cheated his way into office should prove this!!!!!! Also I found out that Bush Sr. Financed hitler's war!!!!!! By joining an army to fight in a war christians will be supporting a war that Satan authorized for christians and not God. Obviously not following Jesus' stance on neutrality.
Hitlers war? Are you implying we're trying some sort of manifest-destiny in the Middle East? Bush 'cheating' his way into office was a wake up call to Americans. A lot of our countries younger generation, including me, did not vote and then this happened. If anything, him being president strengthened the power of voting once he was out of office due to his so-called failures. I only say 'so-called' to avoid arguments with other people and who knows if history will vindicate him. Anyway, this is what I previously stated-- sitting back and doing nothing creates atrocities in government powers and it hurts everyone. Our foundations get crushed and we lose our freedoms and luxuries. But you're beliefs say doing something about it is satan toying with us. The JW's sit back, don't take action, and then play the blame game after the crap hits the fan. They have no right to do that. Say what you want, your opinion does not count in politics.
About Jesus' stance on neutrality though, sure our founding fathers took a swing at that and it worked for a while, but the bigger they get, the harder the problems get. I've stated this many times, but Jesus was practically the first hippy. "Slap my cheek? I'll turn so you can hit the other!" Taking Jesus' neutral stance gets you run over a lot in the present.
not take part in any other community but their own. Ok now your slandering. The JW's have supported many disaster reliefs such as the false flag 9/11 attack.
And it was pretty convenient that Bethel was in NYC and that they always use this as an example without acknowledging the other religious groups that aided. Let me share with you a quick personal story-- my dad volunteered to go down to New Orleans (Sladell? Sledell?) to aid during Katrina. He ended up being assigned to a group that cleaned out a deserted restaurant and used it as a station for taking care of dropped-off abandoned dogs, cats, etc. He was gone for 2 weeks and loved every minute of it.
During this time he was a JW and when he got home, my parents had a small party and some JW's came for it. One man who he'd never met before asked him about it and wondered why he didn't go down to aid the JW's in rebuilding their homes first. The man seemed offended and wouldn't let it go. As a result, the elders took him in later at church and questioned him for not looking to the church first to see what he could do for the JW's down there. So pretty much he was scolded for aiding down there because he didn't help the right people. So don't tell me I'm slandering. I've seen it with my own eyes.
All birthdays and holidays venerate a world ruler or venerate spiritistic teachings, the hallmarks of babylon the great!!!
Who cares? They've evolved into something somewhat nice. Just like soccer. Soccer has a brutal and barbaric history and now it's the most-played sport on the planet. Nobody has the right to say they're mandatory or that you can't do them. And the reason people do them today is because they're fun (or zombies from doing it all their lives :P ). I'm sure little kids prefer hunting for easter eggs without their parents telling them that they're imploring worship in sex and fertility goddesses.
As for preaching all the time that's a lie, when they're not preaching they're inviting people to gatherings, eating at restaurants, going to movies etc.
Oh I know. I've been there. Mormons do this to. And then once you're there and not of the church, they will pester you to join. I've seen this dozens of times-- stories from myself and others.
Hey, everyone has to make the decision whether to be a friend of the world or not. Also everyone must choose who to slave for cause you can't slave for 2 masters
I'll take the one that I can see and interact with without my telepathy.
As for majority of Church-goers who are you referring to the JW's or christendom?
JW's. The majority of the people I grew up with left within a 5 year period.
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Thanks for taking this one, Falconer. All I could say was "WOW". ;)
Speaking of the Mormons following people around, we get letters from the local Mormon church wherever we move!! I have no idea how they find us...my husband was raised Mormon, and somehow got on this mailing list that knows where people live!! How intrusive.
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The US may not be going so far as "Manifest Destiny" every where in the world they reach into, however they do employ a form of forced assimilation time and time again......some folks are just not interested in converting to democracy and just like religion, should not be forced to adhere to it.
The thing with majority rule,is, that when the majority calls all the shots, the minority are forced to be dragged along for the ride.
For a look at a system which is much more fair across the board take a look at "The Great Law of Peace" of the Iroquois Confederacy...... Now you may say that the US Constitution was based from that exact system however upon closer study it is readily evident which parts were adopted and which were not. Finely, with just a bit of logical contemplation it shouldn't be too hard to come to some "speculation" as to why some of The Great Law could not be employed while maintaining the agendas of your "Founding Fathers".
And now........
***off my soapbox and back to defending/bashing Creator***
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So I'm going to have to lumberjack your post here...
Satan started out as a snake now he's a full-fledged 7-headed 10-horned dragon who is ruling through the earthly "powers" right now
This is what I was talking about. Your arguments are parallel to explaining the existence of Madusa, Harpies, or the Cyclops from Greek Myth to people if they hear you say this and are skeptical of the bible.
As for all life being made from dirt seriously what do all living creation on Earth decompose to?? Oh yeah that's right DIRT.
This would make sense if we were talking about death. Not life. I'd accept stardust as an answer though!
Oh and I will always rely on the bible instead of man-made philosophy, it's a snare that's easy for anyone to fall in it's probably Satan's greatest trap.
There's nothing wrong with education, however too much time away learning in Satan's world could get you mixed up in philosophy.
What a convenient cop-out to shield yourself from education, personal thought, and human advancement. If you were alive 500 years ago, I'd wager a lot on you praising the house-arrest of Galileo due to his findings not aligning with the bibles philosophy.
It seems like you didn't do a lot of personal studying on your own, correct me if i'm wrong.
Granted it has been a long time, but I remember a bit of it. And these are all vague animal descriptions that could be aligned with any (to-be) historical significance just like the writings of Nostradamus.
Why should we help the governments I mean kingdoms with the voting. If anything seeing how Bush cheated his way into office should prove this!!!!!! Also I found out that Bush Sr. Financed hitler's war!!!!!! By joining an army to fight in a war christians will be supporting a war that Satan authorized for christians and not God. Obviously not following Jesus' stance on neutrality.
Hitlers war? Are you implying we're trying some sort of manifest-destiny in the Middle East? Bush 'cheating' his way into office was a wake up call to Americans. A lot of our countries younger generation, including me, did not vote and then this happened. If anything, him being president strengthened the power of voting once he was out of office due to his so-called failures. I only say 'so-called' to avoid arguments with other people and who knows if history will vindicate him. Anyway, this is what I previously stated-- sitting back and doing nothing creates atrocities in government powers and it hurts everyone. Our foundations get crushed and we lose our freedoms and luxuries. But you're beliefs say doing something about it is satan toying with us. The JW's sit back, don't take action, and then play the blame game after the crap hits the fan. They have no right to do that. Say what you want, your opinion does not count in politics.
About Jesus' stance on neutrality though, sure our founding fathers took a swing at that and it worked for a while, but the bigger they get, the harder the problems get. I've stated this many times, but Jesus was practically the first hippy. "Slap my cheek? I'll turn so you can hit the other!" Taking Jesus' neutral stance gets you run over a lot in the present.
not take part in any other community but their own. Ok now your slandering. The JW's have supported many disaster reliefs such as the false flag 9/11 attack.
And it was pretty convenient that Bethel was in NYC and that they always use this as an example without acknowledging the other religious groups that aided. Let me share with you a quick personal story-- my dad volunteered to go down to New Orleans (Sladell? Sledell?) to aid during Katrina. He ended up being assigned to a group that cleaned out a deserted restaurant and used it as a station for taking care of dropped-off abandoned dogs, cats, etc. He was gone for 2 weeks and loved every minute of it.
During this time he was a JW and when he got home, my parents had a small party and some JW's came for it. One man who he'd never met before asked him about it and wondered why he didn't go down to aid the JW's in rebuilding their homes first. The man seemed offended and wouldn't let it go. As a result, the elders took him in later at church and questioned him for not looking to the church first to see what he could do for the JW's down there. So pretty much he was scolded for aiding down there because he didn't help the right people. So don't tell me I'm slandering. I've seen it with my own eyes.
All birthdays and holidays venerate a world ruler or venerate spiritistic teachings, the hallmarks of babylon the great!!!
Who cares? They've evolved into something somewhat nice. Just like soccer. Soccer has a brutal and barbaric history and now it's the most-played sport on the planet. Nobody has the right to say they're mandatory or that you can't do them. And the reason people do them today is because they're fun (or zombies from doing it all their lives :P ). I'm sure little kids prefer hunting for easter eggs without their parents telling them that they're imploring worship in sex and fertility goddesses.
As for preaching all the time that's a lie, when they're not preaching they're inviting people to gatherings, eating at restaurants, going to movies etc.
Oh I know. I've been there. Mormons do this to. And then once you're there and not of the church, they will pester you to join. I've seen this dozens of times-- stories from myself and others.
Hey, everyone has to make the decision whether to be a friend of the world or not. Also everyone must choose who to slave for cause you can't slave for 2 masters
I'll take the one that I can see and interact with without my telepathy.
As for majority of Church-goers who are you referring to the JW's or christendom?
JW's. The majority of the people I grew up with left within a 5 year period.
I'm BACK 0_0!!!!!!!!
1. Everyone starts out being skeptical until they actually study. I now understand you, you choose the world cause you didn't want to follow christ standards anymore. It's a choice for everyone and not mandatory if you don't really want to, my uncle choose the world once and CHOOSE to get DF'ed now he's reinstated :).
2. Dust, dirt, stardust still created from something, oh and everytime you scratch yourself that's DIRT your scratching off and last time I checked you were alive when you scratched yourself.
3. Matthew 4:4 reads 4 But in reply he said: “It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’”
1 John 2:15-17 reads 15 Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.
1 Corinthians 3:18-20 reads 18 Let no one be seducing himself: If anyone among YOU thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.” 20 And again: “Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.”
Colossians 2:8 reads 8 Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.
4. My dear fallen star, those are more then just mere historical significances and if you think like that then history class in school must have just been mere historical significances as well. As for the animal representations I suggest you read Daniel again.
5. Please stop making excuses and who cares if my opinions don't count towards politics, I don't support it anyway. John 17:16 reads 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
Romans 12:2 Reads 2 And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
John 18:36 reads 36 Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
Since the founding fathers were "apart of the world" they couldn't take the hardship and they succumbed.
6. Your still making excuses the JW's still supported people during the disasters even if they did emphasis helping the own "family" first, btw that's just common sense help out your own family first. I would do the same thing the elders did if my "literal" family helped someone else first.
7. Fun does not make it ok. Some people think doing drugs is fun doesn't make it ok. Some people think sniffing chemicals is fun doesn't make it ok. Some people think cutting themselves is fun and DEFINITELY doesn't make it ok. This is not surprising though as the scrips(got that off an omarion blog about him studying with the JW's) say that satan "has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. I suggest you read Colossians 2:8 again.
2 Corinthians 4:4 reads 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
Jude 17-19 reads 17 As for YOU, beloved ones, call to mind the sayings that have been previously spoken by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18 how they used to say to YOU: “In the last time there will be ridiculers, proceeding according to their own desires for ungodly things.” 19 These are the ones that make separations, animalistic [men], not having spirituality.
8. Who cares if the mormons do this they have the world's most powerful sect FLDS and you have to pay to go to their church anyway and believe that God has a goddess wife which is in pagan religion. But enough Mormon bashing what does this mean? "And then once you're there and not of the church, they will pester you to join. I've seen this dozens of times-- stories from myself and others." Please elaborate
9. Even Solomon who had everything saw the world as vanity
Ecclesiastes 1:14-17 reads 14 I saw all the works that were done under the sun, and, look! everything was vanity and a striving after wind.15 That which is made crooked cannot be made straight, and that which is wanting cannot possibly be counted. 16 I, even I, spoke with my heart, saying: “Look! I myself have greatly increased in wisdom more than anyone that happened to be before me in Jerusalem, and my own heart saw a great deal of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 And I proceeded to give my heart to knowing wisdom and to knowing madness, and I have come to know folly, that this too is a striving after wind. 18 For in the abundance of wisdom there is an abundance of vexation, so that he that increases knowledge increases pain.
As for faith read these scrips, a former drug addict had an acronym for faith. his acronym definition was finding adventures in trusting him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. 2 For by means of this the men of old times had witness borne to them.
3 By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so that what is beheld has come to be out of things that do not appear.
4 By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than Cain, through which [faith] he had witness borne to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness respecting his gifts; and through it he, although he died, yet speaks.
5 By faith E´noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well. 6 Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please [him] well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.
7 By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this [faith] he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that is according to faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God.
11 By faith also Sarah herself received power to conceive seed, even when she was past the age limit, since she esteemed him faithful who had promised. 12 Hence also from one [man], and him as good as dead, there were born [children] just as the stars of heaven for multitude and as the sands that are by the seaside, innumerable.
13 In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who say such things give evidence that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had indeed kept remembering that [place] from which they had gone forth, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only-begotten [son], 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 19 But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way.
20 By faith also Isaac blessed Jacob and E´sau concerning things to come.
21 By faith Jacob, when about to die, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped leaning upon the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, nearing his end, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel; and he gave a command concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses was hid for three months by his parents after his birth, because they saw the young child was beautiful and they did not fear the order of the king. 24 By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Phar´aoh, 25 choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, 26 because he esteemed the reproach of the Christ as riches greater than the treasures of Egypt; for he looked intently toward the payment of the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, but not fearing the anger of the king, for he continued steadfast as seeing the One who is invisible. 28 By faith he had celebrated the passover and the splashing of the blood, that the destroyer might not touch their firstborn ones.
29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry land, but on venturing out upon it the Egyptians were swallowed up.
30 By faith the walls of Jer´i·cho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Ra´hab the harlot did not perish with those who acted disobediently, because she received the spies in a peaceable way.
I'm not trying to force anyone to believe in the bible, just showing people what it says regrading people's statements and in time maybe someone's heart will be touched enough to get a free study with the JW's.
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Everyone starts out being skeptical until they actually study. I now understand you, you choose the world cause you didn't want to follow christ standards anymore. It's a choice for everyone and not mandatory if you don't really want to, my uncle choose the world once and CHOOSE to get DF'ed now he's reinstated
For the record, I'm not DF'd. My parents were wise enough to keep the dunk tank away from me, so no worries about talking to me!
I've learned that many claims in the bible are false and simply are tales. I've read quite a bit of it through my life to know that I will not follow it due to the lack of evidence of the supernatural events among many other things listed throughout this thread. I do not accept some of Christs standards simply because I do not want to be labelled as naive (nor a hippy) to how things really are in the world. I will not substitute things requiring logic merely on faith as I choose not to be blind to the world around me. What you probably see from that statement-- that my eyes are closed to satan! and covered from our savior!-- mean absolutely nothing to me. I'm being realistic. I am out of those delusional shackles and will never step back in it. I'm free.
Dust, dirt, stardust still created from something, oh and everytime you scratch yourself that's DIRT your scratching off and last time I checked you were alive when you scratched yourself.
Don't watch me scratch myself. It's creepy!
My dear fallen star, those are more then just mere historical significances and if you think like that then history class in school must have just been mere historical significances as well. As for the animal representations I suggest you read Daniel again.
Unlike a lot of tales in the bible, the ones in school weren't full of magic and animal representations. Those ones were saved for Myth and Legends class.
Please stop making excuses and who cares if my opinions don't count towards politics, I don't support it anyway. John 17:16 reads 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.
Since the founding fathers were "apart of the world" they couldn't take the hardship and they succumbed.
Then you're simply taking advantage of the hard-won freedoms in our country from our founding fathers and then bashing them. I would label this under hypocracy. Just remember this- if it weren't for our Founding Fathers, you would not have the religion you believe in today.
. Your still making excuses the JW's still supported people during the disasters even if they did emphasis helping the own "family" first, btw that's just common sense help out your own family first. I would do the same thing the elders did if my "literal" family helped someone else first.
My dad did the right thing. And if you're telling me since he went down to help people other than JW's, you clearly have some very scary close-minded moral issues that portray significant problems in the mindset of religion. We're ALL family on this earth despite petty beliefs which put us in little cliques.
Fun does not make it ok. Some people think doing drugs is fun doesn't make it ok. Some people think sniffing chemicals is fun doesn't make it ok. Some people think cutting themselves is fun and DEFINITELY doesn't make it ok. This is not surprising though as the scrips(got that off an omarion blog about him studying with the JW's) say that satan "has blinded the minds of the unbelievers. I suggest you read Colossians 2:8 again.
You're comparing celebrating holidays and playing soccer to meth addicts and emos. The example does not work. Again, they're fun and they're okay.
Who cares if the mormons do this they have the world's most powerful sect FLDS and you have to pay to go to their church anyway and believe that God has a goddess wife which is in pagan religion. But enough Mormon bashing what does this mean? "And then once you're there and not of the church, they will pester you to join. I've seen this dozens of times-- stories from myself and others." Please elaborate
A lot of people that began going seemed pestered into it at our congregation. The head of the household was usually asked at a barbeque, restaurant, 2nd room in the church, etc. about how they were liking it and that they should really come more often and study more. Even my parents went out in service and would return to peoples doors every weekend to follow up even if they seemed uninterested. The mormons do the exact same thing. It just seems soulless-- if people are interested and want to go, they'll go without someone asking them constantly.
I'm not trying to force anyone to believe in the bible, just showing people what it says regrading people's statements and in time maybe someone's heart will be touched enough to get a free study with the JW's.
A major reason my mother left was from the lack of being touched emotionally by it. As you've demonstrated with the dozens upon dozens the biblical references, JW's pov of the bible seems more school/research oriented in the study of the bible rather than feeling-based. In essence, you're going to a school to take classes rather than going to a church and feeling spiritually rejuvinated. I can say this is both good and bad for it but I'm way too tired to elaborate right now. Maybe later.
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javascript:void(0); how could not see that there has 2 be some one 2 make this world it could not have happen by it self .Father is a real Bing that know's all.that we knead 2 do 2 live with HIM FOR EVER.that His plan for all of us to do.javascript:void(0);
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Good then don't believe in God, no one gives a *bleep*. But this forum is free to talk amongst like minds and if you don't like it then why the *bleep* must you read it?
Other than try to make believers feel like a stupid *bleep*.
I care about showing people other points of view. Even if it makes them feel stupid being in their little box.
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There may not be a god. But you cannot lie that us humans came to earth on a sliver plate without some sort of strange occurrence leading up to our creation.
Life is a mystery. So is the fact whether god exists or not. I do believe there is a strange force in the world that causes events in the world to occur in the way they do. This may be the god that everyone believes in.
Who knows. But in actuality it does not matter.. all religion is diving in one point. Obeying a figurehead and living life based on customs described in a silly book of so-called holiness.
You can all agree on one thing however. We all are human. In the end is that not what matters solely?
To tell the truth i would rather believe in myself than believe in something which has not been proven to exist. Sure we have pictures an explanation and a general description from society and books.
What how are we supposed to tell what the true version is? What if its all a pack of lies? What if god is the universe itself? What if... we waste 5 minutes of our lives every time we ask ourselves these questions?.. And what if we get into arguments and die over such childish acts..?
Oh well. Doesn't matter now does it..? All that matters now is to live as long as possible and see the truth when you die.
Only when your life is ended will you see the truth... the most likely truth would be death.
Nothing more.. nothing less.
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no you don't because you are one of the few that belittle and talk down to people that believe in God and call them ignorant and delusional.
Well first off I believe there's a god. I just don't BELIEVE *sways hands in air and falls back* IN GEEZ-USSS! When I see blatant ignorance and delusional talk with an emphasis on swaying minds towards their delusions, I call it out. I introduce skepticism because maybe the people listening will learn something. I'm sorry to inform you but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. And I am not one of the few here. Let us not forget the title of this thread.
Good then don't believe in God, no one gives a *bleep*. But this forum is free to talk amongst like minds and if you don't like it then why the *bleep* must you read it? Other than try to make believers feel like a stupid *bleep*.
I only belittle and talk down to you because you are CONSTANTLY offensive. CONSTANTLY.
And what if we get into arguments and die over such childish acts
Welcome to human history, friend.
"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."
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I would rather stay in my little science books. Science has been proven and is something people can expand on... its also probably the best waste of time in the world.
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Well first off I believe there's a god.
Are you serious?
All this time you have been bashing me and everyone else for believeing in God but you yourself believe there is a god of some sort? What about the big bang theory? You sure were backing that up last week...
Wow you sound like a very confused person. But I am happy you have finally realized that a god/God created this world.
By the way I'm trying to stay out of all of this arguing because I am more of a peaceful person so don't be suprised if I don't write back.
Peace
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It's not so much that I don't believe in god, but more so I don't believe in religion.
I honestly think it is a pain more than it helps people.
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This thread needs to be locked. Srsly.
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This thread needs to be locked. Srsly.
Lock a debate thread in a debate and discussion forum?
Are you serious?
Yeah. I've said this a lot. I'm agnostic.
All this time you have been bashing me and everyone else for believeing in God but you yourself believe there is a god of some sort? What about the big bang theory? You sure were backing that up last week...
I believe the big bang happened. The physical evidence is around every corner of the universe for something of that nature to occur. Anyone can pull the "Well you weren't there! How do you know!?" card, but from my studies it's the best testable answer we have. To me god is a great mystery that cannot be defined by human terms since we know so little in the grand scheme of things. People are afraid to embrace a mystery and rather define it with simpleton myths from long ago and embrace those things as the truth. So I guess you could say that's where I'm confused. I used to have that mindset and I see people twice or even 3 times my age still stuck in it. My best answer for it is just simple and comfortable and easy to argue with due to the massive bag of cop-outs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1YiDN8MT9w go to :55 if you dont want to listen to the whole thing. Makes sense, right?
This is probably why I get along with atheists better in arguments-- it's a lot easier to discuss this topic with people who think in the realm of reality rather than delusionals who really like polishing their jewish carpenter zombie god infront of the crowd.
But I am happy you have finally realized that a god/God created this world.
I never said that.
By the way I'm trying to stay out of all of this arguing because I am more of a peaceful person so don't be suprised if I don't write back.
Awwww :(
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Well first off I believe there's a god.
:o Seriously? Care to expand, because I'm worried here!
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This is probably why I get along with atheists better in arguments-- it's a lot easier to discuss this topic with people who think in the realm of reality rather than delusionals who really like polishing their jewish carpenter zombie god infront of the crowd.
Of course you get along better with Atheists because you have the same beliefs as them.
There is nothing to argue with them about.
Anyway I honestly just think you are confused... First you act like I'm a delusional ignorant freak for believing in God and you show me all of this "evidence" to how and why there is no god... But now you say you believe there is a god of some sort. Well if I am delusional and ignorant for believing in God then so are you. You make no sense.
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To tell the truth there really isn't any actual evidence to god existing.
There are just myths and old stories.
I do not believe in myths and old stories.. but the ideas that come with them are believable. Thus we have religion.
You have no idea what is there, but you still believe in the customs and ideals.
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Of course you get along better with Atheists because you have the same beliefs as them.
No I do not. They may be similar, but look up the terms-
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist
Now there are a ton of separate terms for agnostics. I am an agnostic-theist. I get along better with atheists because they can tell the difference between a fairy tale and how reality works. You can read this if you want. Short and sweet- http://danielmiessler.com/blog/is-pre-big-bang-agnosticism-a-belief
Anyway I honestly just think you are confused... First you act like I'm a delusional ignorant freak for believing in God and you show me all of this "evidence" to how and why there is no god...
When did I do this? I refuted your 'research' by showing that christianities teachings are scientifically unsound and that they were indeed delusional, produce ignorance, and, as you and religion both demonstrated, anger (edit: atleast what we took as anger). I never disproved the existence of a supreme being. I put my chips in with disproving the existence of Yahweh just as I could with Zeus or Athena. I am not confused in the respect you're referring to.
Well if I am delusional and ignorant for believing in God then so are you. You make no sense.
I just found this to explain--
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa212/TheseAreThingsILike/Agnosticism.jpg)
By you being Christian, I am in a completely different boat than you, so don't label me as ignorant and delusional.
Seriously? Care to expand, because I'm worried here!
No need to worry (I think...). I do not pray to any deity or go to church as I did in the past. I can sniff out bull pretty well as I hope you've seen. My beliefs, (rather than take a stance on defining a god and what he wants or simply knowing there isn't a god) are set in the area where I can't see if either views have any massive irrefutable proof already existing or have yet to be. Of course I would commend atheists with their realistic attitudes for seeing outside the confines of religion as it is filled with errors and that none of them have it right (yet the majority of the world believes they do-- a BIG turn off for me). But at the same time atheists take the stance that they are 100% right as well (if not, quote me).
When it comes to atheism, I can't fold my arms with them at this point in my life. Now this I have a lot of difficulty in explaining, but why do we have this reality? These dimensions we're slaves to? Why did it develop as it did? What was here or around before our universe was a tiny singularity and exploded? What will be after? What's beyond the so-called 'infinity' of it? Are there others? Is there some form of a creator to it all? I'd like to have all of this information right now! I wish we had the ability to go beyond our current barriers to see but we can't. And in both your and my lifetime, I doubt we'll know the exact answers. Maybe we will figure it out one day and you'll be correct, but I can't erase the notion that something we currently do not understand might have been behind it in one way or another. It's a humongous gray area with me, but I just don't rule out the possibility of there being a supreme being somewhere in the mix if not the whole mix. Does this make sense?
Lenle's post above mine pretty much sums this whole thing up.
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Well Falconer those are some of the questions that made me realize there is a god.
I am not delusional and crazy for believing in a god if you Mr. I know everything is actually agnostic.. This whole time I thought you were atheist. That is how you portrayed yourself.
Anyway, I just do not see how me believing in God and you having doubts about there actually being a god makes you oh so much smarter... At this point I actually have a lot more respect for Queen only because yes she did judge me but she KNOWS what she believes and she thinks my beliefs are nonsense.. and I think hers are... But you don't even know really what you believe... You admit that you think there might be a god (There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.) But don't judge others for believing in something that you you think might be true. Exactly you do not know so why all of this time have I been so ignorant? You agree it's a possibility correct? Then stop acting like I'm crazy. You can clearly tell you are trying to sound "cool" just by reading your response to Queen. You can tell you think it's cool to not believe in a god... Because that's what smart people do, they diss religion right?
You are confused you can say you are not but it is very clear you are.
Maybe one day you will realize God does exist and I hope that you do.
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Well Falconer those are some of the questions that made me realize there is a god. I am not delusional and crazy for believing in a god if you Mr. I know everything is actually agnostic.
The specific Christian god, right? You kept taking things from creationist sites so that's what I'm led to believe. My belief does not have a label for this being. You obviously didn't read my third link because it answers a majority of your posts questions. Let me post the important parts to save us some time though-
"I didn’t say anything about there being no external influence. But it’s a leap to give that influence a sentience, a personality, and talk about what it thinks and wants and loves and hates, and what it did when...all based on a book written by men, just like a million other books written by men about other such Gods that you don’t believe in."
"If someone doesn’t have enough information about what happened pre big bang, which nobody does, and refuses to come to any conclusions about it, that’s not strange behavior. It’s logical and humble."
I just do not see how me believing in God and you having doubts about there actually being a god makes you oh so much smarter
"I’m saying I don’t have any idea what caused the big bang, and you’re calling that crazy. I say it’s 1000 times as crazy to sit on a speck of dust in a vast universe and tell me that you KNOW not only who created the universe, but also what they think, what they like, don’t like, etc."
You agree it's a possibility correct? Then stop acting like I'm crazy
"So again, my stance is that your answer is not correct, and your answer is ASTOUNDINGLY SPECIFIC and personalized."
"So if someone says I believe that there is a person in Guam right now standing on a couch, touching their nose, holding a newspaper, wearing a yellow shirt, with their shoes untied, who served in Vietnam, and got married on a Friday…If I tell you that I don’t believe that, then do I have a BELIEF? No. A belief, in this context, is an active thing. It’s something you branch out on based on evidence, personal or otherwise. YOU are the one branching out here, not me. I’m simply NOT believing in your claim about this person in Guam. It is YOUR responsibility to show EVERYONE ELSE why YOU believe this person is standing on a couch in Guam doing all these things. Why? Because it’s both HIGHLY SPECIFIC and UNLIKELY."
You can clearly tell you are trying to sound "cool" just by reading your response to Queen. You can tell you think it's cool to not believe in a god... Because that's what smart people do, they diss religion right?
(http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/attachment.php?attachmentid=240959&d=1241110075)
I think it's cool not to believe in religion (due to histories) and personalized deities (due to the reasons above). Like I said, it's easier to side with people that don't cling to dozens and dozens of myths and scream that they actually happened and give ridiculously fallible evidence. That and she's been a lot nicer and understanding in argumenting. She thinks outside the box of these things.
You are confused you can say you are not but it is very clear you are.
I AM confused in a universal sense. Because I CAN be! I can take it. I can embrace it. I don't settle for personalized gods. I assume it's a different type of confusion that you were thinking of.
Maybe one day you will realize God does exist and I hope that you do.
If you can finally step out of your shoes after me writing this entire post, you will know exactly why this sentence is pointless.
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I put my chips in with disproving the existence of Yahweh just as I could with Zeus or Athena.
No need to worry (I think...). I do not pray to any deity or go to church as I did in the past. I can sniff out bull pretty well as I hope you've seen. My beliefs, (rather than take a stance on defining a god and what he wants or simply knowing there isn't a god) are set in the area where I can't see if either views have any massive irrefutable proof already existing or have yet to be. Of course I would commend atheists with their realistic attitudes for seeing outside the confines of religion as it is filled with errors and that none of them have it right (yet the majority of the world believes they do-- a BIG turn off for me). But at the same time atheists take the stance that they are 100% right as well (if not, quote me).
When it comes to atheism, I can't fold my arms with them at this point in my life. Now this I have a lot of difficulty in explaining, but why do we have this reality? These dimensions we're slaves to? Why did it develop as it did? What was here or around before our universe was a tiny singularity and exploded? What will be after? What's beyond the so-called 'infinity' of it? Are there others? Is there some form of a creator to it all? I'd like to have all of this information right now! I wish we had the ability to go beyond our current barriers to see but we can't. And in both your and my lifetime, I doubt we'll know the exact answers. Maybe we will figure it out one day and you'll be correct, but I can't erase the notion that something we currently do not understand might have been behind it in one way or another. It's a humongous gray area with me, but I just don't rule out the possibility of there being a supreme being somewhere in the mix if not the whole mix. Does this make sense?
I am always kind of puzzled when people can see that the god of the Bible/the god of the Koran/the many gods of Hinduism are *disprovable B.S., and yet they still think that there is some kind of higher consciousness out there. *By disprovable B.S., I mean because these popular gods are very much defined based on ancient texts and traditions, it's easy to call them out on where they're wrong.
Yes, it is certainly better to believe in god in general rather than subscribe to any conventional religion. But THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the natural processes in which our world was brought about had anything to do with a god. I'm with the logical crowd in that no one can 100% say there isn't a creator (just as we can't 100% prove that there isn't an invisible pink unicorn who kisses me on the forehead at night), but where does the evidence point?? While god is *a possibility* just like my pink unicorn is *a possibility*, the evidence is very highly AGAINST that being the case to the point that it is acceptable to "round down" the possibility of god to zero.
It is a good thing to be in awe of and have respect for the universe, but just because we can't understand everything does not mean it is fitting to put a "god" label on it. It blows my mind how things like computers and cars and Wii consoles can come about from a natural world of trees, grass, sun, rocks, and dirt. But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean there is "magic" or "god" behind how technology works. I don't typically like the following phrase because people often use it in an annoying context, but: "It is what it is."
How can you not see that people who deny religion but still believe in a "higher power" are inventing a god for themselves, too? This "higher power" is so undefined compared to Jesus or Allah that it doesn't make sense. So...you say the universe was created by a creator? You still have the problem of where the creator came from. If this "god" is not the god of the Bible or similar, he obviously hasn't made clear what he/she/it's rules are. Like he/she/it just created us and forgot about us? If there is a higher power creator, is there an afterlife? Do we need to do anything to be "worthy" of it?
Do you see how you have the same problems as religion, except now you don't even have the answers?
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I am always kind of puzzled when people can see that the god of the Bible/the god of the Koran/the many gods of Hinduism are *disprovable B.S., and yet they still think that there is some kind of higher consciousness out there.
Well we just don't rule it out of the undefined equation (yet). That's all. It's just curiosity.
But THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the natural processes in which our world was brought about had anything to do with a god. I'm with the logical crowd in that no one can 100% say there isn't a creator (just as we can't 100% prove that there isn't an invisible pink unicorn who kisses me on the forehead at night), but where does the evidence point?? While god is *a possibility* just like my pink unicorn is *a possibility*, the evidence is very highly AGAINST that being the case to the point that it is acceptable to "round down" the possibility of god to zero.
There isn't any physical evidence. I agree with that. With what we've discovered thus far. And I understand through mankinds history we've disproved the "god did it!" aspect numerous times so obviously history sides with your views. But who's to say we won't eventually discover something out there far into the future beyond the realms of physical law? I believe because we're mortal and confined to this reality that it's easy to see things in black and white, but agnostics tend to sit in a gray area either to speculate, play it safe, or just not care. I'm one to speculate. I would think 'rounding down' would fall within the black or white parameters.
It is a good thing to be in awe of and have respect for the universe, but just because we can't understand everything does not mean it is fitting to put a "god" label on it. It blows my mind how things like computers and cars and Wii consoles can come about from a natural world of trees, grass, sun, rocks, and dirt. But just because I don't understand it doesn't mean there is "magic" or "god" behind how technology works. I don't typically like the following phrase because people often use it in an annoying context, but: "It is what it is."
Well your example seems confining because you confine it to earthly things. You can understand how all those things work because we've already defined how they work. You can't put the god-label on them. We have yet to discover perhaps an infinite amount of things in/around/out of our universe so those things are undefined. We have yet "to boldly go where no man has gone before". I just don't rule out there being a creator being one of them. An undefined creator that may or may not have played a role in this universe.
How can you not see that people who deny religion but still believe in a "higher power" are inventing a god for themselves, too? This "higher power" is so undefined compared to Jesus or Allah that it doesn't make sense.
I found this once online...maybe it will make some sense out of this--
"I'm neither arrogant enough to believe there is nothing out there that may be beyond my ability to comprehend that works against or even manipulates physical law
-OR-
am I self-centered enough to think that if one being did create everything in the entire universe ever, he'd giving a flying f**k what I do on Sundays."
So...you say the universe was created by a creator? You still have the problem of where the creator came from. If this "god" is not the god of the Bible or similar, he obviously hasn't made clear what he/she/it's rules are. Like he/she/it just created us and forgot about us? If there is a higher power creator, is there an afterlife? Do we need to do anything to be "worthy" of it?
By saying this I think you believe I have the same mindset as a Christian/Muslim/Hindu. Why? I'm not. I can't answer these questions. I can speculate on what I think happens, but that's no good if we're going for 100% truth. That's why I'm agnostic.
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Falconer,
I did read your link. It still doesn't answer ANY of my questions.
It just goes on and on about how ridiculous it is to believe in a Christian god (basically.)
Which puzzles me only because you yourself say there is a possibility there is a god...
Well what if that god is the Christian God?
Exactly you have no idea so please stop calling me delusional.
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By saying this I think you believe I have the same mindset as a Christian/Muslim/Hindu. Why? I'm not. I can't answer these questions. I can speculate on what I think happens, but that's no good if we're going for 100% truth. That's why I'm agnostic.
Nah, I wasn't accusing you of having a religious mindset, but those questions I supplied do bring up some very good points. Mainly, how does it really affect your life to believe that a creator made the universe, if you have no way of knowing what impact that "truth" could have? Are you not still going to live your life and then die in pretty much the same way when faced with the options that either (a) an intelligence "maybe" created the universe, but it cannot be proven or (b) observable natural processes that we can't fully understand did it?
The only purpose to keeping god a possibility is to make one feel better/make "sense" of things. That as long as you believe in SOMETHING, perhaps you will live forever, etc. You just don't "know".
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I did read your link. It still doesn't answer ANY of my questions.
Both the article and myself have answered your questions.
Well what if that god is the Christian God?
You may be correct. You also may be correct about 'a person in Guam right now standing on a couch, touching their nose, holding a newspaper, wearing a yellow shirt, with their shoes untied, who served in Vietnam, and got married on a Friday'. The problem is the claims of Christianity are so precise, so specific, and so personalized on who god is, what he wants, what he knows, etc. that it sounds absolutely ridiculous and highly unlikely. And how you've shown that you are constantly resistant to any reasoning besides your own ("you guys speaking against Christianity have only strengthened my faith!") is the very definition of a delusional mindset. My belief is nothing more than "There might be a god out there but I do not know." so do not put me in the same boat as you. It is not resistant. It is always open for discussion and is susceptable to progressive reasoning. That is all.
QUEEN-- I wrote out a big thing for you but I accidentally hit my back button and lost it. I'll answer your q's later. It's a nice day out.
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You may be correct. You also may be correct about 'a person in Guam right now standing on a couch, touching their nose, holding a newspaper, wearing a yellow shirt, with their shoes untied, who served in Vietnam, and got married on a Friday'. The problem is the claims of Christianity are so precise, so specific, and so personalized on who god is, what he wants, what he knows, etc. that it sounds absolutely ridiculous and highly unlikely. And how you've shown that you are constantly resistant to any reasoning besides your own ("you guys speaking against Christianity have only strengthened my faith!") is the very definition of a delusional mindset. My belief is nothing more than "There might be a god out there but I do not know." so do not put me in the same boat as you. It is not resistant. It is always open for discussion and is susceptable to progressive reasoning. That is all.
That's just ridiculous to compare. The bible is reasoning to why someone would believe in a christian God. We don't come up with it out of no where like you/the website is stating with the person from Guam. You are acting as if Christians are just randomly making stuff up. No.
Please explain how me stating that you have strengthened my faith is delusional?
You're just making crap up. And if you think that God is a possibility to how/why we are here then just stop... If you don't think you know how this world got here and sgree that anything is a possibility then you shouldn't judge anyone. Seriously.
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We don't come up with it out of no where like you. You are acting as if Christians are just randomly making stuff up.
I didn't invent agnosticism. I'm not accusing you of making this stuff up either. I'm accusing gullible people from long ago. You're just following what was made up. I guess Christians tend to make stuff up too-- how many sects of Christianity are there? How many errors? Rewrites?
Btw, no offense, but you can't seem to get any of the context down correctlly in your last few posts.
Please explain how me stating that you have strengthened my faith is delusional?
de·lu·sion - Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
The fact in this matter is you can't accept that you might be wrong. But when someone states that you may be, it only strengthens that single belief rather than broaden it to different views? How convenient a way to fend off opposing pov's. It's like you believing everyone is secretly a penguin. I argue that we're not penguins as it's wayyyy too much of a stretch on reality (thus the man in Guam example), but that only strengthens your belief that we're all penguins.
You're just making crap up.
Thanks for proving my point.
If you don't think you know how this world got here and sgree that anything is a possibility then you shouldn't judge anyone. Seriously
There's a major difference in the size of the two things you've stated. Metaphorically I believe there is a man in Guam but I'm not certain to how or what he's doing. I'm willing to retract my statement as well if anyone wants to go to Guam and disprove me. You believe there's a man in Guam who is doing all of those things right now specifically that I listed. That one is the creationist belief which seems far too much of a stretch on how things went down (ex- rib woman, talking snake, genocidal god). Which seems more plausable? I only seem to judge when people believe in silly myths and will fight to the death for them. When they bury the variable that they may be incorrect.
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Nah, I wasn't accusing you of having a religious mindset, but those questions I supplied do bring up some very good points. Mainly, how does it really affect your life to believe that a creator made the universe, if you have no way of knowing what impact that "truth" could have? Are you not still going to live your life and then die in pretty much the same way when faced with the options that either (a) an intelligence "maybe" created the universe, but it cannot be proven or (b) observable natural processes that we can't fully understand did it?
The only purpose to keeping god a possibility is to make one feel better/make "sense" of things. That as long as you believe in SOMETHING, perhaps you will live forever, etc. You just don't "know".
Thank you. And yes, they do bring up good points. As far as how it affects my life, I only think this because I believe there might be something out there that is not restricted to what we are restricted to (dimensional space, time). That it has the power to move through and above where we're at. If we could find this creator (or what I refer to as a creator) and learn from it, perhaps we can then finally have those answers. We may even discover these answers not finding a creator behind it, which I really have no problem with (EDIT: This is why many people put agnostics in the same category as atheists). I just can't throw that variable out of the bag yet. Even though it's highly speculative, it does make me feel good to wonder about it. Defining everything from where we're at (like religion does) destroys that aspect of it since it's so ludicrous. Atheism just seems to chop it off quick. That's why I find myself in the gray area.
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For the record, I'm not DF'd. My parents were wise enough to keep the dunk tank away from me, so no worries about talking to me!
I've learned that many claims in the bible are false and simply are tales. I've read quite a bit of it through my life to know that I will not follow it due to the lack of evidence of the supernatural events among many other things listed throughout this thread. I do not accept some of Christs standards simply because I do not want to be labelled as naive (nor a hippy) to how things really are in the world. I will not substitute things requiring logic merely on faith as I choose not to be blind to the world around me. What you probably see from that statement-- that my eyes are closed to satan! and covered from our savior!-- mean absolutely nothing to me. I'm being realistic. I am out of those delusional shackles and will never step back in it. I'm free.
Reading the creation and mankinds search for god books will help you see the logic in it I promise. Please read those publications it has LOGIC.
Don't watch me scratch myself. It's creepy!
When I said last time I checked I meant last time someone scratched themselves according to science they scratched off dirt!
Unlike a lot of tales in the bible, the ones in school weren't full of magic and animal representations. Those ones were saved for Myth and Legends class.
Fine if you don't like the fact that the bible uses "magic" then think of God using nature to do miraculous things. You really should watch Exodus Decoded, tha's not made by the society btw. As for animal representations, I guess you think the term "sheep" is vague.
Then you're simply taking advantage of the hard-won freedoms in our country from our founding fathers and then bashing them. I would label this under hypocracy. Just remember this- if it weren't for our Founding Fathers, you would not have the religion you believe in today.
I'm not denying what they did for the "united states" i'm just pointing out that they choose the world over christ. As for the religion I have today trust me it would have come babylon he great's errors would have been made known and so will god's name. With or without America. Interestingly enough the protestants literature and bibles are owned by the U.S.!!!! I don't know about other places but it's owned by the U.S> in the states!!!! Not much separation from church and state there. The JW's also won some hard-earned freedoms as well however they did so WITHOUT FIGHTING!!!
My dad did the right thing. And if you're telling me since he went down to help people other than JW's, you clearly have some very scary close-minded moral issues that portray significant problems in the mindset of religion. We're ALL family on this earth despite petty beliefs which put us in little cliques.
Your right about everyone being the same family but if I had to choose between helping someone of my immediate family or helping someone who wasn't't my immediate family I'll help someone who was my immediate family. There's plenty of examples in the bible where God helped his people first and then helped others such as when God helping rahab after he helped his own pople, then Rahab was able to join the israelites and she had her life changed evenbeing apart of the lineage of Jesus!!!! Spiritually speaking the JW's believe they are Israel, and by spiritually speaking that means that they are not part of the original hebrews but apart oftrue followers of God all over the earth.
You're comparing celebrating holidays and playing soccer to meth addicts and emos. The example does not work. Again, they're fun and they're okay.
It doesn't change the fact that like 5 to 7 sins get committed on those days or even at the same time and that the hallmarks of babylon the great are venerated, it's clear that the holidays are revelries that promote covetousness, jealously, greed and materialism. More importantly, why only one day for giving people things, why only one day to express love for your spouse or GF etc. I'm sure that people think egging people's houses is fun, or dressing up as the devil is fun. Bottomline holdays have roots in spirtism, and veneration of a human figure, doesn't matter if it seems fun, such reasoning would conclude that ouija boards and tarot card reading is fun.
A lot of people that began going seemed pestered into it at our congregation. The head of the household was usually asked at a barbeque, restaurant, 2nd room in the church, etc. about how they were liking it and that they should really come more often and study more. Even my parents went out in service and would return to peoples doors every weekend to follow up even if they seemed uninterested. The mormons do the exact same thing. It just seems soulless-- if people are interested and want to go, they'll go without someone asking them constantly.
I think your confusing persistence with pestering. As for the mormoms the only do it for one year and stop.
A major reason my mother left was from the lack of being touched emotionally by it. As you've demonstrated with the dozens upon dozens the biblical references, JW's pov of the bible seems more school/research oriented in the study of the bible rather than feeling-based. In essence, you're going to a school to take classes rather than going to a church and feeling spiritually rejuvinated. I can say this is both good and bad for it but I'm way too tired to elaborate right now. Maybe later.
Try not to take it the wrong way but it's your mother's fault for deciding to be baptized if she didn't feel emoionally attached. As for the school appoarch it's free, easy to understand and organized, i think the apostles might have thought people about God through illustrations to gatherings of people 0_0. Either way how else can you teach people how to preach the good news of the kingdom without t. Anyway the school system is to help people gain "accurate knowledge" of the bible and as the person applies the principals in his/her life they will come to have an emotional attachment to God.
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Reading the creation and mankinds search for god books will help you see the logic in it I promise. Please read those publications it has LOGIC.
You promise? I read many of those books. And yet I'm not a JW anymore.
Fine if you don't like the fact that the bible uses "magic" then think of God using nature to do miraculous things. You really should watch Exodus Decoded, tha's not made by the society btw. As for animal representations, I guess you think the term "sheep" is vague.
Non-biblical proof, plz. None of your books tied to the NWT. I want physical evidence (other than that book written by men) that he had a hand in these miracles performed in your text from other sources other than your own. You must thwart every other belief system in doing this proving to me this magic happened within the confines of your beliefs. Atheism included here. Also, if it's not made by the society, you shouldn't be watching it :o. It's worldly. Unless of course it aligned perfectly with your beliefs (of course then it's okay, right?).
As for animal representation, sheep is not vague. Just as referring to someone as 'yo dawg' is not vague. But using animal representation to determine what will happen in the future is exponentially more vague than Nostradamas' works.
Do me a small favor...take a breather from the shell for an hour and watch Religulous. It's pretty funny. It's free and can be seen online.
I'm not denying what they did for the "united states" i'm just pointing out that they choose the world over christ. As for the religion I have today trust me it would have come babylon he great's errors would have been made known and so will god's name. With or without America. Interestingly enough the protestants literature and bibles are owned by the U.S.!!!! I don't know about other places but it's owned by the U.S> in the states!!!! Not much separation from church and state there. The JW's also won some hard-earned freedoms as well however they did so WITHOUT FIGHTING!!!
What they did for the US effected your freedom of beliefs. You now have the freedom to worship christ any way you want because they fought hard and won your freedom to do so. And you simply acknowledge them as "not following Christ". You've also pulled the "It would have happened anyway" card thus using a cop-out and ruining your argument.
Your right about everyone being the same family but if I had to choose between helping someone of my immediate family or helping someone who wasn't't my immediate family I'll help someone who was my immediate family.
Your JW buddies aren't your immediate family. Even if you refer to them as brothers and sisters, they are not your immediate family. If he went down there to either help people of or not of his church, he would still be helping strangers despite their labels. The problem here is he helped and he got ridiculed for it. You keep trying to compromise this and you're only making yourself and your church look closed-off by stretching the basic story.
It doesn't change the fact that like 5 to 7 sins get committed on those days or even at the same time and that the hallmarks of babylon the great are venerated, it's clear that the holidays are revelries that promote covetousness, jealously, greed and materialism.
Again, using this same logic, you shouldn't play soccer for the same reasons because of what happened in the past. If you don't like watching jealousy, greed, or materialism, you should never watch tv, read magazines, books, or go buy things. Hell, you shouldn't even be living in this country! I'm sure if you reflect on yourself that you are being hypocritical in some way here. No offense-- I know I was being the same.
More importantly, why only one day for giving people things, why only one day to express love for your spouse or GF etc.
Reminders and debt. People not of your church still show appreciation for their loved ones not on these days.
I'm sure that people think egging people's houses is fun, or dressing up as the devil is fun. Bottomline holdays have roots in spirtism, and veneration of a human figure, doesn't matter if it seems fun, such reasoning would conclude that ouija boards and tarot card reading is fun
Ouija boards and Tarot cards do not equal dressing up as the Incredible Hulk. Dressing up as a devil is on par with dressing up as Hades or even Ganondorf. They're all mythological characters. Dressing up to egging peoples houses? Why do you keep connecting things that don't connect at all? People egg houses/do vandalism throughout the year. Some have a massive history to these days...others are simple highschool prank days before a game or something.
I check my horoscope doing the Daily thing here on FC and I always get a kick on how it tells me to go for something I would just not even think about doing-- many times to help someone not on my mind. But it's based in THE STARS so it's WORLDLY and therefore BAD!
I think your confusing persistence with pestering
Persistence to you. Pestering to them.
Try not to take it the wrong way but it's your mother's fault for deciding to be baptized if she didn't feel emoionally attached. As for the school appoarch it's free, easy to understand and organized, i think the apostles might have thought people about God through illustrations to gatherings of people 0_0. Either way how else can you teach people how to preach the good news of the kingdom without t. Anyway the school system is to help people gain "accurate knowledge" of the bible and as the person applies the principals in his/her life they will come to have an emotional attachment to God.
She was a JW for over 23 years. Same with my dad. Myself growing up I can tell you they were very emotionally attached.
I actually wanted to get her full story on it because I couldn't remember it well. I just called her out of curiosity. She told me that she slowly found that they were simply going by the book in the pursuit of learning. They closed the idea of bringing up your own spin on things when going door-to-door. The people would brag about how their kids were going to Bethel and pioneering whereas with my brother and I joining after-school things like track or band and eventually going off to school and getting our bachelors...she was frowned upon it because "we were going with the world". When her father died, she found that going actually upset her more than helping since she found herself practically sitting in a classroom raising her hand and reading from the book infront of her. I guess she slowly found that they valued principle over emotion as you've stated. I'm convinced it does not work for everyone.
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Exodus decoded has many scientific, and archaeology proof.
Also, if it's not made by the society, you shouldn't be watching it Shocked. It's worldly. Unless of course it aligned perfectly with your beliefs (of course then it's okay, right?).
I watch cash cab, wheel of fortune, jeopardy, the history channel, and many other shows and programs, watching something that's overly violent or immortal too much can influence bad thoughts and actions however, some scientific studies showed this 0_0.
As for animal representation, sheep is not vague. Just as referring to someone as 'yo dawg' is not vague. But using animal representation to determine what will happen in the future is exponentially more vague than Nostradamas' works.
Oh, I see, the term sheep is ok because it doesn't tell the future "supposedly" but daniel like prophecies regrading animals is vague even though it clearly tells you in the bible that the animals represent political powers ok!!!
What they did for the US effected your freedom of beliefs. You now have the freedom to worship christ any way you want because they fought hard and won your freedom to do so. And you simply acknowledge them as "not following Christ". You've also pulled the "It would have happened anyway" card thus using a cop-out and ruining your argument.
Oh wow, you can do that in other countries as well, "as for fought hard for my beliefs" they didn't fight that hard they just broke-off from Britain and killed off most of the native americans. Definitely not following Christ.
Your JW buddies aren't your immediate family. Even if you refer to them as brothers and sisters, they are not your immediate family. If he went down there to either help people of or not of his church, he would still be helping strangers despite their labels. The problem here is he helped and he got ridiculed for it. You keep trying to compromise this and you're only making yourself and your church look closed-off by stretching the basic story.
I like being closed-off actually instead of being apart of the world. As for them being my immediate family spiritually speaking they are, where as people who are in spiritual "sodom" aren't I see that you skipped my bible references, your starting to rely on your own understanding instead of what god's word says just like Satan. You know what it says but your deliberately not applying it to your life because you want to direct your own step.
If you don't like watching jealousy, greed, or materialism, you should never watch tv, read magazines, books, or go buy things. Hell, you shouldn't even be living in this country! I'm sure if you reflect on yourself that you are being hypocritical in some way here. No offense-- I know I was being the same.
Wrong, that's like saying that Jesus and his apostles should not have stayed in the country they lived in. Watching however is not the same as participating in it. You are right on one thing however since this is Satan's world almost everything is against god's morals, doesn't mean you can't try to regulate your entertainment or what you
choose to like or do.
Reminders and debt. People not of your church still show appreciation for their loved ones not on these days.
True but what day do they show the most appreciation for an individual or yeah that's right Holidays!! It should be year-round and not one day.
Ouija boards and Tarot cards do not equal dressing up as the Incredible Hulk. Dressing up as a devil is on par with dressing up as Hades or even Ganondorf. They're all mythological characters. Dressing up to egging peoples houses? Why do you keep connecting things that don't connect at all? People egg houses/do vandalism throughout the year. Some have a massive history to these days...others are simple highschool prank days before a game or something.
I check my horoscope doing the Daily thing here on FC and I always get a kick on how it tells me to go for something I would just not even think about doing-- many times to help someone not on my mind. But it's based in THE STARS so it's WORLDLY and therefore BAD!
Spiritually speaking they are all the same thing and some people think tarot cards and ouija boards is fun so it connects. All hallows eve is the practice of putting sweet food out for evil spirits and then threatening a mischievous trick if they don't give them candy. If you think that Satan is mythological that's proof right there that you either doubt the Christ or think he is a liar. The night before all hallows eve some people participate in mischief night and they mess up people's houses at night.
People egg houses/do vandalism throughout the year. Some have a massive history to these days...others are simple highschool prank days before a game or something.
Doesn't make it good, or ok but since your spiritually dead you don't care.
But it's based in THE STARS so it's WORLDLY and therefore BAD!
Wrong it's based off of astrology which is the predicting the future by studying nature. IT'S A FORM OF FORTUNE-TELLING BAD!!!!!!!!!
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I think your confusing persistence with pestering
Persistence to you. Pestering to them.
Agreed :P. In this world with so many spiritually dead people that's to be expected, it's becoming more and more like Noah's day.
She was a JW for over 23 years. Same with my dad. Myself growing up I can tell you they were very emotionally attached.
I actually wanted to get her full story on it because I couldn't remember it well. I just called her out of curiosity. She told me that she slowly found that they were simply going by the book in the pursuit of learning. They closed the idea of bringing up your own spin on things when going door-to-door. The people would brag about how their kids were going to Bethel and pioneering whereas with my brother and I joining after-school things like track or band and eventually going off to school and getting our bachelors...she was frowned upon it because "we were going with the world". When her father died, she found that going actually upset her more than helping since she found herself practically sitting in a classroom raising her hand and reading from the book infront of her. I guess she slowly found that they valued principle over emotion as you've stated. I'm convinced it does not work for everyone.
Let me ask you one question do you believe anything the bible says cause if not there's not point in debating you anymore. I'm sorry to hear that after her father died she stopped applying the bible's principles to her life it's clear that the "sitting in the classroom card" is what she used to express she didn't want to learn about God anymore, as for you getting an education it wasn't because you were getting an education, a brother in my KH is studying to be an architect, it was because you were putting all your focus on it and you completely left spiritual goals.
Well, if your still "with the world" which i'm pretty sure you are I hope you don't end up like Notorious B.I.G or Michael both of whom used to study with the JW's and got killed in this world. Christopher even stated and I quote "more money more problems"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I watch cash cab, wheel of fortune, jeopardy, the history channel, and many other shows and programs, watching something that's overly violent or immortal too much can influence bad thoughts and actions however, some scientific studies showed this 0_0.
So what? "Quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." I did a 10-paged paper on this one quote back in college emphasizing the pros and cons of abstinence and conservatism in media. Granted there's some behavioral distortions in unstable people, you'd be surprised at how much these questionable things have influenced and revolutionized creativity for the better in our culture. Just remember-- violence is nothing new to us.
daniel like prophecies regrading animals is vague even though it clearly tells you in the bible that the animals represent political powers ok!!!
The tiger is fighting the bull-herder here.
Oh wow, you can do that in other countries as well, "as for fought hard for my beliefs" they didn't fight that hard they just broke-off from Britain and killed off most of the native americans. Definitely not following Christ.
Egoism. You've deliberatly jumped off the train here and introduced something not having anything to do with what I was refering to. I am refering to the Revolution. Not Manifest Destiny. You also take the notion that breaking apart from Great Britain was easy. It wasn't. Those people died so you can have the freedom to bash them because 'they weren't with Jesus but they allowed for my beliefs'. Those people in WW2 died for you to enjoy your freedoms too. You can pull the "they weren't following jesus!" card all you want, but you are making yourself look more ignorant each time. :(
I like being closed-off actually instead of being apart of the world.
I'd honestly say your JW-advertisement from earlier just lost any chance of getting a bite.
your starting to rely on your own understanding instead of what god's word says just like Satan. You know what it says but your deliberately not applying it to your life because you want to direct your own step.
How convenient-- anyone who does not agree with you is with Satan! This is nothing more than a simple ineffective and irrational curse. I don't align myself with Yahweh or Satan because they're fictional characters created by men from long ago. Just like Nephilim to Ra to Zeus. Breaking off from that mindset was the most philosophically correct and enlightening thing I've ever done in my life. The fact that you see me as going with Satan seems to prove my point in my reasoning here.
Wrong, that's like saying that Jesus and his apostles should not have stayed in the country they lived in. Watching however is not the same as participating in it. You are right on one thing however since this is Satan's world almost everything is against god's morals, doesn't mean you can't try to regulate your entertainment or what you choose to like or do.
I honestly prefer this current "satan-world" over the genocidal child-killing jealous immature war-causing god you worship in your church. Satans church has some pretty damn good up-to-date morals itself, you know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan
Spiritually speaking they are all the same thing and some people think tarot cards and ouija boards is fun so it connects. All hallows eve is the practice of putting sweet food out for evil spirits and then threatening a mischievous trick if they don't give them candy. If you think that Satan is mythological that's proof right there that you either doubt the Christ or think he is a liar. The night before all hallows eve some people participate in mischief night and they mess up people's houses at night.
So what? And I'm not calling Christ a liar. I'm calling him a hippy ;). I'd call the writers of his story liars, gullibles, and exhaggeraters.
Doesn't make it good, or ok but since your spiritually dead you don't care.
I honestly don't care simply because it's kids having some fun and being stupid. All kids need some of that in there lives. Too bad I didn't get much due to you-know-what.
Wrong it's based off of astrology which is the predicting the future by studying nature. IT'S A FORM OF FORTUNE-TELLING BAD!
Technically the bible does this too though. And, like I stated earlier, my astrological horoscope has honestly helped me focus on good and real things. I don't believe the whole spiritism behind it is true though. I'm just saying since it's doing me and others good by focusing on helping others, who cares about the fortune telling thing. They're just positive words that aren't creating wars and atrocious arguments.
Agreed . In this world with so many spiritually dead people that's to be expected, it's becoming more and more like Noah's day.
They're just opening up to reality of things. Saying this is just another cop-out to keep them in the confines I keep blabbering about. You could say "It's becoming more like the days before Alderaans destruction when the dark side prevailed" and be just as effective here.
Let me ask you one question do you believe anything the bible says cause if not there's not point in debating you anymore.
I believe in some of the moral codes. I believe Jesus was a unique individual for his time. I think the myths are pretty cool and weird-moral stories. That's about it though.
is what she used to express she didn't want to learn about God anymore
She didn't want to learn about god the way the JW's do it because it became soulless to her (and many who left). She's still extremely spiritual almost to the point where it annoys the hell out of me.
, as for you getting an education it wasn't because you were getting an education, a brother in my KH is studying to be an architect, it was because you were putting all your focus on it and you completely left spiritual goals.
You have no idea how thankful I am for them doing this. I really didn't enjoy growing up as a JW. And it's very strange that anyone who did ended up screwing up royally and didn't go much anywhere (I'm not making this up for JW's to look bad-- this is 100% truth). The only thing I liked were the ones who had the same mindset I did. And they all left and surprisingly we're all still great friends.
Well, if your still "with the world" which i'm pretty sure you are I hope you don't end up like Notorious B.I.G or Michael both of whom used to study with the JW's and got killed in this world. Christopher even stated and I quote "more money more problems"!
Hey, people die. Sh*t happens. I'm furthest from being a gangster though. I like being 'worldly'. It's usually a very nice and broad horizon.
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How can that dude reference Notorious BIG for a religious debate??? He's running out of things to say maybe???? Who does that?????
What a NERD!!!!!!!!
P.S. sorry, "nerd" is my favorite word at the time, because I am one!! He gets a "religious debate reference-FAIL" :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
P.S.S. Falconer02, you're posts are very honest, can't wait to hear more! Thank you for being real!!! :notworthy: :star:
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Don't be upset God, I still :heart: you and believe in you.
OH yes, and posting a sexy woman written in letters in a debate forum about god really depicts how strong your religious beliefs are!!!! :thumbsup:
GET
A
GRIP!
because you are grip-less!!!! :dontknow: :wave:
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P.S.S. Falconer02, you're posts are very honest, can't wait to hear more! Thank you for being real!!!
No prob. Right back at ya. I'm a nerd too.
OH yes, and posting a sexy woman written in letters in a debate forum about god really depicts how strong your religious beliefs are!!!!
I would suggest not even bothering with this user. You'll type paragraphs of explanations and they'll fly right over her head. I'm sure the majority in these argumentative threads would agree.
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It's not over my head but I will choose to believe what I want and you won't change what I believe. I don't care how much you post. Writing to me is a waste of your time because I won't chage my beliefs.
See what I mean? You're playing the victim card now for no reason at all.
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Flying WAY over her head! :angry7: That's so funny!!!! Reading her posts make my head hurt! :BangHead: Thanks for the advice Falconer02, It definitely does'nt make sense to keep replying to her posts, she really does'nt understand the word "debate" very well, nor does she post very much relevant content!!! She should also understand that I don't want to change her, she's going down all on her own, and it won't be pretty.....but it will be amusing.........
-HA HA HA!!!!!!:wave:
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If God was so awful then it doesn't seem like people care to much, so I am not sure why they act like they do.
Because they still believe in these personalized gods which effects their reasoning skills. These skills, when amplified into crowds with the same beliefs, can alter a logical conclusion for the worse and hurt societies progression and/or knowledge of reality. See: Galileo Galilei
You've pretty much answered your own question judging from the two pictures you've posted.
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(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae148/elissa_028/15318_329754946891_666471891_411600.jpg)
But yet life is great, so great that people continue wanting to live and make babies. Makes perfect sense! If God was so awful then it doesn't seem like people care to much, so I am not sure why they act like they do.
IGNORANCE at it's best!
You make absolutely NO SENSE at all. Guess what? Life is great, without the existense of God. Also, no one here said that your "God" was awful, I just don't recognize him as a tangible being, therefore I do not believe in the story of his exsistence. Do you know what the word Tangible means????
Without religion, I have been in this world for 32 years, I have a wonderful husband, and we have a beautiful daughter together. We have never spent a day in church in our lives together, yet we are extremely happy together-and Oh yea-We made baby, and still want to make more. Figured I would come down to your level of reasoning, even though its absolutely ubsurd, just to get my point across. Also, to bring back something you wrote in a previous post, you stated that "God kind of Sucks", did you not???? WTF!
The point is this, post something intelligent next time, and don't go surfing on the internet and upload content to answer our post in this forum-back it up what you think, not with the words of some random-yahoo author!
Grip-less!!!!!!!!!
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The reality is this, take God out of Reality and you end up with a messed up Christmas I mean Life.
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/d/d1/Picard_disapproves.jpg)
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Alright, I don't believe in Jesus or "God" either.
But I don't see why posting this.
I'm a pagan though..
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Alright, I don't believe in Jesus or "God" either.
But I don't see why posting this.
I'm a pagan though..
:thumbsup: Because it's feaking funny and this is a religious debate and discuss thread!!!!! :thumbsup:
Welcome! Tell us about your Pagan faith, it sounds interesting, I don't really know much about it.......
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Ok just for the record I'm scared to respond to this topic, but I will anyway, because I've always been curious about atheist and, so please dont get mad ok I want to ask if atheist celebrate holidays this is probably a stupid question but I honestly dont know much about atheist and I just want to learn thats all so please enlighten me about this. :peace:
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Ok just for the record I'm scared to respond to this topic, but I will anyway, because I've always been curious about atheist and, so please dont get mad ok I want to ask if atheist celebrate holidays this is probably a stupid question but I honestly dont know much about atheist and I just want to learn thats all so please enlighten me about this. :peace:
Why are you scared? Atheists are nice people, so long as whoever we're talking with isn't spewing ignorance. If you're open-minded and eager for education, we're here to help.
In answer to your question, I would guess a lot of atheists continue to celebrate whatever holidays they did before due to family pressure, for their kids, or they personally enjoy the holiday. They would simply celebrate whatever holiday in a more secular nature (i.e., not go to church).
I personally have stopped celebrating all holidays as of a few years ago. I did this because: 1) all holidays are rooted in ridiculous religious traditions and contain many pagan customs (just do the research!) 2) the "major" ones like Christmas and Easter support Christianity/a belief in god 3) I don't have kids, so what's the point of celebrating something like Halloween and 4) I'm no longer a kid, and doing the same tired traditions for X number of years in a row gets old. I don't need a routine date to look forward to on my calendar for my life to be interesting or purposeful. I do much bigger things - like travel the world - that gives me something to look forward to.
My biggest beef is with Christmas. I think that is the absolute worst one of them all. The obvious Jesus factor aside, I hate how commercialized it is and the sick "obligation" everyone has for buying presents for people that they don't bother to care for with gifts any other time of the year (you know, true thoughtfulness). I've worked at places during the holidays where I was appalled to see so many people being smug with themselves for buying the absolute cheapest sh*t they could find for someone on their list, proving they were simply going through the motions rather than genuinely caring. Many people would also buy such cheap crap in July and tell me they're "saving" it for Christmas.
I'm not a materialistic person and can afford to get whatever I want on a daily basis. I don't need people giving me crap I don't need or want, and I don't want to give them crap they don't need or want, which is another reason I'm glad I don't celebrate Christmas. I am debt-, stress-, and obligation-free on a seasonal basis. ;D
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But yet life is great, so great that people continue wanting to live and make babies. Makes perfect sense!
It's called our genes. Our genes force the majority of us to survive and reproduce. Life is NOT great for millions of people, but because our genes are so powerful, most of us are scared to die and will press on living a sh*tty life because that's all we have.
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What are we progressing to? We will still die, we won't remember we lived, we will never see loved ones again. We can't live forever in the flesh even if it was possible because that would be HELL considering the universe is like a Rubberband, it will snap back.
We'd be progressing to a lack of atrocities committed in the name of religion, most significantly. We'd be able to channel this new found time and energy without religion into improving/extending the life of all people.
Reality sucks and it is almost like you have to forget and put it in the back of your mind if you want to be happy while alive.
EXACTLY. Or you could come up with some god to numb yourself to this truth.
I can't help it, I don't understand how people can smile being an atheist. I would like to remember I lived.
How can you remember you lived once your brain stops functioning? What will it matter that you lived once you're gone forever? Just enjoy life while you're alive, simple as that. Be famous, pass on your genes, or erect a tombstone when you die if you want to be remembered for living a little while longer after you die.
It's just hard for me to understand how you wouldn't get depressed. I get depressed not scared that there is no God.
Yes, to be honest with you, it CAN be depressing at times that this whole circus we call life is POINTLESS. I myself get pretty angry sometimes at how stupid so many people are and how serious they treat things which are completely MEANINGLESS. But you make your own purpose, and I'm personally here to have a good time while it lasts. I think many people WOULDN'T be able to go on without a god, and this is perhaps why it is hardwired in our brains to invent such things. It's to the benefit of our genes; it's a survival mechanism.
The reality is this, take God out of Reality and you end up with a messed up Christmas I mean Life.
Nah, I think most people would have a BETTER life when they realize each of us only gets 70 or so years. They would hopefully treat their fellow man better so as not to impose on another's brief stint with conscious happiness. They would not *bleep*-foot around when it comes to their dreams and goals under the excuse that if they don't fulfill their dreams, at least a heaven awaits them.
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Atheists don't believe there is a God. They believe in everything Scientists come up with. They are the type that believe the world is Flat until one day oops it's round.
Atheists don't believe there are ANY gods, plural. Christians are atheists, too, when it comes to Zeus, Ra, Vishnu, Allah, Krishna, etc. etc.
Scientists do not "come up with" stuff. Everything is thoroughly tested and observed, and you have to credit science to EVERY modern technology you take advantage of in your life.
The Bible says the earth is flat, so I don't know why you chose that as an example. Science continues to improve and update its theories and recognize when it's wrong. It doesn't settle on a talking snake, forbidden fruit, virgin birth, eternal torture chamber, etc. etc. as the final stance on "reality".
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Your soul doesn't stop functioning just your brain. I will remember life and take all my life experiences with me when I die.
That is not physically possible. Explain people with Alzheimer's, people who hit their heads and are suddenly completely different people, etc. Where do their "souls" go??
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That is not physically possible. Explain people with Alzheimer's, people who hit their heads and are suddenly completely different people, etc. Where do their "souls" go??
(http://jenden.us/storage/JD/img/must_not_feed_the_troll.jpg)
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Ok just for the record I'm scared to respond to this topic, but I will anyway, because I've always been curious about atheist and, so please dont get mad ok I want to ask if atheist celebrate holidays this is probably a stupid question but I honestly dont know much about atheist and I just want to learn thats all so please enlighten me about this. :peace:
Why are you scared? Atheists are nice people, so long as whoever we're talking with isn't spewing ignorance. If you're open-minded and eager for education, we're here to help.
In answer to your question, I would guess a lot of atheists continue to celebrate whatever holidays they did before due to family pressure, for their kids, or they personally enjoy the holiday. They would simply celebrate whatever holiday in a more secular nature (i.e., not go to church).
I personally have stopped celebrating all holidays as of a few years ago. I did this because: 1) all holidays are rooted in ridiculous religious traditions and contain many pagan customs (just do the research!) 2) the "major" ones like Christmas and Easter support Christianity/a belief in god 3) I don't have kids, so what's the point of celebrating something like Halloween and 4) I'm no longer a kid, and doing the same tired traditions for X number of years in a row gets old. I don't need a routine date to look forward to on my calendar for my life to be interesting or purposeful. I do much bigger things - like travel the world - that gives me something to look forward to.
My biggest beef is with Christmas. I think that is the absolute worst one of them all. The obvious Jesus factor aside, I hate how commercialized it is and the sick "obligation" everyone has for buying presents for people that they don't bother to care for with gifts any other time of the year (you know, true thoughtfulness). I've worked at places during the holidays where I was appalled to see so many people being smug with themselves for buying the absolute cheapest sh*t they could find for someone on their list, proving they were simply going through the motions rather than genuinely caring. Many people would also buy such cheap crap in July and tell me they're "saving" it for Christmas.
I'm not a materialistic person and can afford to get whatever I want on a daily basis. I don't need people giving me crap I don't need or want, and I don't want to give them crap they don't need or want, which is another reason I'm glad I don't celebrate Christmas. I am debt-, stress-, and obligation-free on a seasonal basis. ;D
I'm not scared of atheist at all I'm scared of people getting offended and irrational it happens a lot in topics like this, I have no fear of any denomination, it is only reaction I fear and nothing else. :)
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But yet life is great, so great that people continue wanting to live and make babies. Makes perfect sense!
It's called our genes. Our genes force the majority of us to survive and reproduce. Life is NOT great for millions of people, but because our genes are so powerful, most of us are scared to die and will press on living a sh*tty life because that's all we have.
Well this is just a shot in the dark, but ever think it could both our creator and science working together, just a thought, though you obviously know a lot about the science of how our body's work, and your right everyone's life isent perfect my life isen't perfect, in fact sometime it can be down right crappy but through it all, I still have faith that a creator dose exist, and I also must to say this discussion is very interesting I am very intrigued by it. :peace:
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i think everyone should believe in what makes them feel good
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believing or not believing in god is a personal decison and no one should tell you what to belive in. if you cant bring your mind to it that is your own thing.
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does anyone know the difference between religion and christianity ? religion is mans pursuit of god and christanity is gods pursuit of man . religion is a bunch of man made rules and christianity is investagatin he truth of gods word and applying it to your life . believeing that jesus died for our transgressions and rose again so that we may know the lord . thats all he wants is to know us and us to have a personal relationship with him.
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Great job creating a post that seems to bring out something passionate from so many people. I am a proud pagan, and my wife is a dedicated Christian, so it's a common debate in my home. I have tremendous respect for everyone who earnestly tries to explain their faith, and honestly opens up to others. Although I think everyone makes a CHOICE of their faith, I would NOT call it a decision. And certainly not describe it as a rational one. What each person believes in their heart may be very different than what they can understand or rationalize in their mind - Pagans and Atheists included. Sometimes I wish I could just give up and follow a church or a group. It would be easier. But I have to follow what I believe is the truth, and it's NOT any God or Gods.
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The enemy of Faith is knowledge, the more wisdom you aquire the less faith you require. God can be many things to diffrent persons. For some Money is their God. It is what we turn to in a moment of desperation and sometimes insanity. All religion is men made and all holy books are written by men.
The one thing that we all most believe in so that we can better ourselfs and those around us , is we must believe in ourselves and we must love ourselves other wise their is no salvation in this life or the next. So I say have faith in you and may the force of you be with you.
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Although I think everyone makes a CHOICE of their faith, I would NOT call it a decision.
Sometimes I wish I could just give up and follow a church or a group. It would be easier.
I think many people are guilt-tripped into making a forced decision whether it be fear of losing their families respect to fear of what happens when we die. And many of the 'guilt-trippers' are from large churches preaching the fear of hell and saying you have to accept a jewish carpenter as your god or a man on a winged-horse flying to heaven and speaking with god for a dozen years or so. Though they're capitalizing on it and calling it love, they're taking advantage of fear and swaying minds.
You seem to know this because you say it sounds easier. You seem to have your head on straight and you're brave for sticking to your guns. Good for you.
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Falconer02 believes in God but the way he talks about Jesus Christ must mean he don't believe in the God that is associated with Christ.
Falconer02 must believe in another God.
I don't believe in your personalized god because I believe it is so defined by humans that it does not exist. I only nod my head in saying that there might be a god. At this point it is unknowable if it exists or how it effects us. We live in a rational physical world and I don't see any extraordinary evidence pointing to any personalized gods out there. Especially the big-name ones.
Thanks God, make them drop off like flies.
Delusional mindset example here.
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I don't believe in your god.
But let me just see if they make another entrance into Fusion Cash
Hey, people! Look! Proof of god!
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I'm finding that atheists are almost as bad religious zealots. As much as religious people love to shout from the rooftops that they believe in whatever god/gods, atheists seem to love parading around saying "I don't believe in god!" It all makes me do this: :BangHead:
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
i believe in god he is everythig is the king
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Anyone know why Satan is known as "the great deceiver" and not God? Any intelligent theories?
Because if he was known as "the honest one" he wouldn't make a very good bad guy?
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ah, but he believes in you.
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That's ok, God believes in you!
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Ok just for the record I'm scared to respond to this topic, but I will anyway, because I've always been curious about atheist and, so please dont get mad ok I want to ask if atheist celebrate holidays this is probably a stupid question but I honestly dont know much about atheist and I just want to learn thats all so please enlighten me about this. :peace:
Why are you scared? Atheists are nice people, so long as whoever we're talking with isn't spewing ignorance. If you're open-minded and eager for education, we're here to help.
In answer to your question, I would guess a lot of atheists continue to celebrate whatever holidays they did before due to family pressure, for their kids, or they personally enjoy the holiday. They would simply celebrate whatever holiday in a more secular nature (i.e., not go to church).
I personally have stopped celebrating all holidays as of a few years ago. I did this because: 1) all holidays are rooted in ridiculous religious traditions and contain many pagan customs (just do the research!) 2) the "major" ones like Christmas and Easter support Christianity/a belief in god 3) I don't have kids, so what's the point of celebrating something like Halloween and 4) I'm no longer a kid, and doing the same tired traditions for X number of years in a row gets old. I don't need a routine date to look forward to on my calendar for my life to be interesting or purposeful. I do much bigger things - like travel the world - that gives me something to look forward to.
My biggest beef is with Christmas. I think that is the absolute worst one of them all. The obvious Jesus factor aside, I hate how commercialized it is and the sick "obligation" everyone has for buying presents for people that they don't bother to care for with gifts any other time of the year (you know, true thoughtfulness). I've worked at places during the holidays where I was appalled to see so many people being smug with themselves for buying the absolute cheapest sh*t they could find for someone on their list, proving they were simply going through the motions rather than genuinely caring. Many people would also buy such cheap crap in July and tell me they're "saving" it for Christmas.
I'm not a materialistic person and can afford to get whatever I want on a daily basis. I don't need people giving me crap I don't need or want, and I don't want to give them crap they don't need or want, which is another reason I'm glad I don't celebrate Christmas. I am debt-, stress-, and obligation-free on a seasonal basis. ;D
You seem like a smart enough woman or girl or whatever age you are 0_0 to find out the info about holidays on your own. If you didn't find that info on your own or I helped you realize it a little cool :)
@Falconor: Throws in white towel , i'll debate you another day, hope you come around soon, oh there's been another earthquake in china seriously it's been like 5 earthquakes in like 2 months!!!!!! No significance just saying so take it easy.
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches anidol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
i believe in god he is everythig is the king
Eveyone one is entitled to there own opinions and yes I'm a believer myself. Something has made you bitter about this and no one can change your mid except you. Once you figure out what it is you will remember why you believed in the first place. The reason things in this world is like they are is due to sin being introduced into the world. I choose to believe I love God and he loves me. He loves you to and everyone on this earth. And yes there are a lot of judgemental people in this world and yes alot are in the churches and a lot of them say they are christians but live differently then what a christian should be living (yet again another choice) God is real and I could not imagine my life without him leading me. :heart:
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That's ok, God believes in you!
Bleh, what a line! Can you not feed us cliches, please? "God" doesn't need to "believe" in me, because unlike him, people can see, hear, touch, smell, and taste me...well, only my husband for that last one. ;)
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You seem like a smart enough woman or girl or whatever age you are 0_0 to find out the info about holidays on your own. If you didn't find that info on your own or I helped you realize it a little cool :)
Woman. Although something to note in our society is even 40-year-old women refer to each other as "girls", while men are rarely labeled as "boys". Perhaps it's fairly harmless, or maybe it's a rem-anent of women not being equal citizens.
But yeah, the info on holidays is out there, I actually first found out the pagan traditions of Christmas as a Christian. There are some Christians who don't think it's right to celebrate Christmas in the usual sense because almost every symbol surrounding it has nothing to do with Jesus (the Christmas tree is a pagan phallic symbol, for example. Think of that next time you hang those pagan fertility *bleep* - ornaments - on it!).
I've been gradually cutting off all holidays since I found out there is no god (past 3 years). Only birthdays and anniversaries remain.
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Something has made you bitter about this and no one can change your mid except you. Once you figure out what it is you will remember why you believed in the first place. The reason things in this world is like they are is due to sin being introduced into the world. I choose to believe I love God and he loves me. He loves you to and everyone on this earth. And yes there are a lot of judgemental people in this world and yes alot are in the churches and a lot of them say they are christians but live differently then what a christian should be living (yet again another choice) God is real and I could not imagine my life without him leading me. :heart:
This is where you're wrong: no intelligent atheist is "bitter". What you all don't understand is that it is simply an increase in knowledge, thinking, and information that "changed us"; it has nothing to do with "god killed my puppy and my mom got cancer, so I'm pissed now".
I believed in the first place because I had a lack of knowledge. I wasn't raised religiously, and my only reason for being an atheist prior to being a Christian was that I didn't see any evidence for god in my everyday life (a very good reason, but not quite enough ammunition). So if you walk into a religion that has a feel-good message, teaches you not to question things or THINK, teaches you to deny science and logic, it's easy to get swept away emotionally on the promise of heaven. It's the INTELLIGENT people who can stop and go wait, there is a lot of f*cked up stuff in here, let me re-examine these claims rather than keeping my mind on lock-down and taking these far-fetched claims at face value.
If you believe there are bad things in the world because of a fruit and a talking snake...wow. "God" does not love everyone, otherwise he would not torture the majority of them to no end when they die.
A lot of people would be just fine learning there is no god. Ask yourself, "Would I have to kill myself if I knew this life was all I get?" Sure, some people would kill themselves, but thanks to our genes and evolution, we have a strong desire to survive and stay alive, so I'd suppose you'd make the best of it, eh?
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That's ok, God believes in you!
Bleh, what a line! Can you not feed us cliches, please? "God" doesn't need to "believe" in me, because unlike him, people can see, hear, touch, smell, and taste me...well, only my husband for that last one. ;)
You took care of the cliche remark for me, thank you. I live on this planet each day, just like everyone else, and prefer to keep my feet planted there firmly (with my mind) regardless of what my beliefs might be.
Also got a good laugh out of the taste=husband! ;)
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@Falconor: Throws in white towel , i'll debate you another day, hope you come around soon, oh there's been another earthquake in china seriously it's been like 5 earthquakes in like 2 months!!!!!! No significance just saying so take it easy.
I'll stop arguing with you as soon as you make one ounce of sense. I've countered practically every peice of information you've stated and you either stretch it to make it seem less of a priority or just plainly use stawman tactics. You're still bent on proving that all these earthquakes are a sign of the end? Do your research, dude! This is nothing new! We get a lot more than 5 eq's per month-- http://www.livescience.com/environment/recent_earthquakes_world.html We've had a slight increase in quakes this year and part of last, but nothing out of the normal range. These things happen.
You can learn a ton simply by this written by queen--
I believed in the first place because I had a lack of knowledge. I wasn't raised religiously, and my only reason for being an atheist prior to being a Christian was that I didn't see any evidence for god in my everyday life (a very good reason, but not quite enough ammunition). So if you walk into a religion that has a feel-good message, teaches you not to question things or THINK, teaches you to deny science and logic, it's easy to get swept away emotionally on the promise of heaven. It's the INTELLIGENT people who can stop and go wait, there is a lot of f*cked up stuff in here, let me re-examine these claims rather than keeping my mind on lock-down and taking these far-fetched claims at face value.
If you believe there are bad things in the world because of a fruit and a talking snake...wow.
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I Don't believe that u should have to go to church, but i think u should have atleast some faith in GOD or whoevers up there. someones responsible for all of these trees, h20, mass, everything! :)
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It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.
(http://www.saasta.fi/saasta/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/free_candy_van.jpg)
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Also got a good laugh out of the taste=husband! ;)
;) I try to be clever!
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Falconer02......is that a picture of your wheels? I would have thought your vehicle would be silver or maybe white (no particular reason)...but the rest of it looks about right.
It's your gods. Metaphorically speaking of course. You make god out to be some sort of creepy-stalker or some crazy ex with your previous statement.
I try to be clever!
lulz
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It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them. Does God exist? Here are six straight-forward reasons to believe that God is really there (from a former atheist). http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
So...god is actively pursuing me through YOU? Uh, no, the reality is that I'm only using this forum for the same reason every one else is ($$$). I focus on topics such as this one because they actually promote discussion rather than ones that are a quick reply to a general question like Coke vs. Pepsi. It's not because I'm "secretly seeking god" or he's "secretly seeking me". It's a point-blank choice where I post, and I'm trying to sow the seeds of rational thinking in here, EVEN IF MOST OF IT'S IN VAIN. Somewhere, at some time, efforts like mine are *not* in vain for someone who desires the real truth...
If god were truly pursuing me, why do I not have strangers coming up to me saying that I need to come back into the fold or something else that is an uncanny, spiritual coincidence? I'll tell you why. Because "god" isn't really there and never was; he's a figment of your imagination that was developed due to evolution, and once you let go of your imaginary friend, you'll realize that anything that happens is just life. The only reason "god" exists is because mankind is conscious of and terrified of death. The "god" part of the brain evolved to explain the unknown and make us feel better about the fact that we are just a blip on the screen of a cosmological timeframe.
I believe Lacey posted a similar link before. Argument #1 about the earth being "perfect" is silly. Just because odds may be rare for something does not make them impossible, especially considering an infinite timeframe. Also, much of our Earth is covered by desert and therefore unsuitable for farming. This is why we have starving people, because there is not enough fertile ground and fresh water to go around and you're telling me that god is responsible for designing such a world that cannot support our current population. But I suppose you'll say, "oh, it's because of the Fall" - well what a sweetheart god is for stripping our Earth down to only being able to support a fraction of the population.
An argument for the brain does not mention why people who injure their brains can change religions or become different people. And the eye DID evolve one step at a time, gradually. In its current form, the eye is backwards, upside-down, and barely usable; what we see is thanks to our brains processing light photons, not our eyes. And you call that "intelligent design"!
As for #2...we don't know what caused the Big Bang yet. We do, however, know what caused "god", and that's evolution.
In opposition to the rest of the arguments, just because the complexity of things blows your mind does not mean "god did it!".
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Right as always. But your facts are falling deaf on deficient ears. Remember that.
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You're trying to throw the Bible at us in desperation, not realizing that most atheists have read it many times over and the Bible itself is the very reason many of us stop believing. Sure, there are some good parts in there like "love your neighbor" and such, but there are many more atrocities and contradictions than "good stuff". It's obvious to any critical thinker that the Bible was written by scared, primitive, Bronze Age men and therefore should not be regarded as anything but a work of fiction.
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qeostugei'" (theostugeis)- God haters.
Let me just stop you right here-- how are you convincing an atheist that they hate god when they don't even believe that your god exists? You cannot hate a being that does not exist-- you can only hate what people have said about this fake being. With that said, what's the word for "Hatred for people who develop gods"? Around the table, that would make much more sense.
The proof of this hatred of God is both the false religions and cults that create gods to man's own liking
Through any other different-religions viewpoint, Christianity can be this.
I'm just stealing a quote from a user on that site that pretty much sums up what any "Evil Intelligent" person thinks of this whole thing-- A depraved mind is one that goes to such extremes that it cannot or will not recognize other thoughts excepts his/her own. That includes extreme stands on religion. It causes the person to ignore things like common sense and rational thought. It is incapable of growth or thought.
Apparently the guy who wrote this is a Lutheran Pastor too. He takes a very naive stance on issues. With that said, here's another quote--
"But it sure is proven that you can learn to hate people by actively not trying to get to know them."
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It's said that people still believe in hellfire no disrespect marieelissa but the world hell never appears in the bible!!!! Sheol, Hades do though.
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Hell is mentioned in my bible
That's because the translators but the word hell where Sheol(hebrew) and Hades(Greek) is supposed to be. As for hellfire the Greek word for that is Gehenna. None of these words have the Greek meaning for hell so essentially if you take out the Greek meaning for hell you get common grave of mankind.
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Sounds to me that people will try so hard to prove that Santa or the Easter Bunny doesn't exist or wait...No just God.
People want to believe and they have the right to do so, get over it.
If I want to believe that the sky is purple or that rain is glitter falling on me than I am free to do so.
Why do you try to throw out all this Science crap and blah, blah, blah.
People will believe because they want to.
I'M NOT AFRAID OF DEATH AND IF THERE IS NO GOD IT AINT GONNA BE LIKE OH NO! I'm used to life and bad things happening, I just chalk up the non existance of God as one of them if it was proven.
Yep, I am ignorant and damn proud of it....Can't nobody break my style, Can't nobody slow me down, Oh no, I gots to keep on moving.
Have fun burning in Hell you blasphemers. There is a line to draw.
Not ONE PERSON on this planet is NOT affraid of death! I don't care what you believe in !!! You've probably been to a funeral before, have you seen someone dying in the hospital before? Have you ever been inside of a morgue? When you have those experiences- then you can tell me that you aren't afraid to die. Staring death in the face is one thing, staring death in the face of life is another.......
Oh yea- You wouldn't be able to use that PC of yours without science. No cell phones, no texting, no tweeting, no internet, no telophones, no tv, ect. Without science, you wouldnt be able to go to a hospital and get treatment for an illness. Without Science, people with cancer would be suffering. Without science, there would be no vaccines, no antibiotics, no way to figure out genetic conditions, If you wear makeup-no science-no makeup! Without science, No car to drive, no safe food to eat, no keeping cats as pets, because no one would know if they are domesticated, or feral, or have rabies-Oh yea, no antivenom for snake bites, no safe drinking water. Without science (CDC) how would you deal with an outbreak? No Organic anything, No going green, no alternative fuel, no flu vaccines, no testing food for salminella, no answer to any questions in this world.
You see, marriellisa, this is where your ignorance lies. There are many different types of sciences and study that help all of us do things in this world, and to say "Why do you try to throw out all this Science crap and blah, blah, blah" is stupid.
Yes, you can believe what you want to, its your choice. But as sure as you can blow your nose, science is a big part of it!
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Sounds to me that people will try so hard to prove that Santa or the Easter Bunny doesn't exist or wait...No just God.
Um, the problem with this is that people KNOW Santa and the Easter Bunny are made up; not so with god. Most people do not know the history, origins, and arguments against their god; they're simply brainwashed into the feel-good dogma and that's that.
People will believe because they want to.
Yes, that is one of the main reasons holding people back from seeing the most obvious points against their feeble faith.
I'M NOT AFRAID OF DEATH AND IF THERE IS NO GOD IT AINT GONNA BE LIKE OH NO! I'm used to life and bad things happening, I just chalk up the non existance of God as one of them if it was proven.
The problem with this is, you will not "realize" there's not a god...you'll just be dead!! People like you are living their lives with this false sham of "death insurance"...sure, it might make you "feel better" while you're alive, but there's no way to cash in when it matters most. You'll still end up just like this here atheist: dead. If more people could stop and think and realize their death insurance is a fraud, you can bet they would no longer "feel better" in regards to fairytale empty promises. No, they'll have to GROW UP and instead live their life to the fullest now because this life is all they get.
Yep, I am ignorant and damn proud of it....
Oh, man - that is sad. And definitely not something to be proud of.
Have fun burning in Hell you blasphemers.
Um, I thought you didn't believe in the Christian god? So why are you speaking of hell?? To you I say have fun wasting your life on pipe dreams!! That is real "hell"...
Not ONE PERSON on this planet is NOT affraid of death!
Well, there are varying degrees of said fear and some people are on the very low spectrum of fear. In general, though, it is built into our genes to survive at all costs, so they are the real things to blame for said fear. Also our consciousness of ourselves, unlike any other animal, plays a HUGE role.
The only thing I personally think that sucks about death is that some people die way too young or of horrible, painful deaths. In general, though, while the thought of not existing may be "weird", it's really NOT so scary when you consider you have already been dead for 14.5 BILLION years leading up to your birth!!! Dying will be like that moment when you lose consciousness at sleep at night, or being "put to sleep" during surgery. I've been put to sleep to get my wisdom teeth pulled and it's pretty freaky when I can't even recall the moment I passed out. Well, that is what death is going to be like, and then you're gone and will no longer be able to feel or think, so any fear about it will also stop existing as well. Death sucks way more for the people you leave behind then it will for you when you die.
Oh yea- You wouldn't be able to use that PC of yours without science. No cell phones, no texting, no tweeting, no internet, no telophones, no tv, ect. Without science, you wouldnt be able to go to a hospital and get treatment for an illness. Without Science, people with cancer would be suffering. Without science, there would be no vaccines, no antibiotics, no way to figure out genetic conditions, If you wear makeup-no science-no makeup! Without science, No car to drive, no safe food to eat, no keeping cats as pets, because no one would know if they are domesticated, or feral, or have rabies-Oh yea, no antivenom for snake bites, no safe drinking water. Without science (CDC) how would you deal with an outbreak? No Organic anything, No going green, no alternative fuel, no flu vaccines, no testing food for salminella, no answer to any questions in this world.
EXACTLY. Why do people trust science for pretty much EVERYTHING that's good in their life, but when it comes to what these same scientists have found regarding the origins of our world and bodies, people stick their fingers in their ears and deny it??
Because they're scared of being a pointless, MORTAL, blip on the cosmological timespan. Sorry, just because you all don't like the truth doesn't make it not true.
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I'm not sure how many people have seen this, but I'll post it. Carl Sagan wrote this. It has somewhat of a tie-in to what people are saying here.
(http://www.icis.com/blogs/icis-chemicals-confidential/bluedot.jpg)
“Look again at that dot. That’s here. That’s home. That’s us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every “superstar,” every “supreme leader”, every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.
Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.
The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.
It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we’ve ever known.”
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Didn't realize this was still going. Sad that it has gotten so far away from my intended meaning but glad to see it still gets people talking. :thumbsup:
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wow
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Then WHY do you always talk about how 'crappy' your life is and cannot wait for it to be over? You have tangible proof of something better? ::) I think you ought to make your outlook on life here better, or stop complaining about it being so bad. It is what you make it.....
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You can roll your eyes all you want, but I don't need to prove myself to anyone.
Your postings are pointless then.
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Humans?
Must...resist...arguing....with...troll....
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Life isn't better than Heaven, and that is why I can't wait for it to be over. I know I will go to Heaven when I die.
My outlook on life is fine, but compared to Heaven...well life is not so great.
So why don't you just, uh, kill yourself? Oh wait! That's against god's "rules"!
In reality, most of "your kind" (to use your beloved phrase) would be too scared to off themselves, lest THEY BE WRONG about the whole afterlife thing. As I mentioned before, "your kind" LOVES to take advantage of modern medical SCIENCE when they get in a car accident or get cancer. Why try to prolong this crappy life, eh? If god doesn't want you to die, you won't. So why do you actively take advantage of medical science in these situations? Only those crazy Christian Scientist people have got it right...they refuse medical care and look, their kids die and get to be with Jesus quicker!
I don't know why believers assume heaven is going to be some orgasm-inducing, Disneyland, acid trip "just for them". The only thing the Bible says about it, actually, is that you'll be worshiping god forever. It is not "worshiping god" to play golf with someone on the clouds, sorry. So 24/7 church service and hymns, never-ending...god being such an insecure child, I'd expect nothing else, would you?
Also...get ready for a lobotomy of some sort. You'll first need a heavenly lobotomy to "forget" all of those loved ones/friends who didn't quite make the cut into heaven and are burning forever...your second lobotomy will occur regularly, whenever you get bored out of your skull from all that worshiping/having to live forever. Don't ask how you'll get a lobotomy in the first place without a physical brain (because you're DEAD)...it's magic! ;)
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Oh wow, I just figured out I am 'one of your kind' Falconer! :D Resisting one of 'the other kind', who endlessly mucks up boards and discussions, can be almost impossible. It's bad when new people come on here and start thinking the place is full of head cases like a certain someone, when there are actually a lot of very sane and helpful people here. I say that from my own recent experience when I joined and started reading through the Forums. So 'our kind' must hold our ground and continue making reasonable posts and putting plausible ideas out there. If we don't, the delusions might become real! :thumbsup:
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My kind just wants to know (coz im ignorant when it comes to religion) is all you have to do is believe in god to get to heaven? you dont have to show any kind of compassion for other people? And why Marieelissa do you donate food and clothes to the church if you hate people? Wouldnt you just throw it away?
I will be glad to burn in hell if they let you in heaven. Heaven dosnt sound all that wonderful reading your posts :sad1:
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Another one who has seen how 'upbeat' your posts are, marieelissa. You forget we can copy all the ones you delete and I could have shown you many of them, but chose not to waste the space or my time.
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Is life boring?!? Life isn't even 1% of what Heaven would be...
Yes, I think life can be boring at times. If you take a step back and realize how pointless it all is - all of these grand systems we have in place just to survive - and it's all for nothing once you die...this realization makes a lot of things in life mundane.
I really don't know why people think 80 years isn't enough. Well, those are the people who hold themselves back and waste so many years not living life to the fullest, I suppose.
As for the good things in life being only 1% of what heaven will be like...again, you are making huge assumptions and have no proof for this.
Good quote: "Atheists will celebrate life, while you're in church celebrating death." – Anonymous
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Let me ask you about the Unknown....Crop Circles and designs from the sky - looks like bugs, any ideas? The pyramids, Stonehendge?
I've been to both the Pyramids and Stonehenge and you are really showing how cuckoo you are if you think they were made by anything but humans. The Pyramids are even documented by history, Jesus!
Where's the face palm emote...
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Where's the face palm emote...
There isn't one unfortunately so--
(http://c0d3.name/images/double-facepalm.jpg)
So 'our kind' must hold our ground and continue making reasonable posts and putting plausible ideas out there. If we don't, the delusions might become real!
As for the good things in life being only 1% of what heaven will be like...again, you are making huge assumptions and have no proof for this.
One thing you all have got to understand is a lot of religious/spiritual nutjobs (as we call them) believe that our reality is a delusion. They believe that we are wrong for accepting this reality as it is and not what they think is behind the curtain. They cannot grasp the idea that this might be it and instead choose to believe in crazy things-- crazy things to us but not to them. Even though I'm in favor of our reality just because...well...it makes sense...I do feel we're being a little ethnocentric to their ideas-- psycho-crazy as they are.
So why bother? You won't change her opinion. She has the guts to admit she has a few mental problems which is fine...I just feel like a lot of informed people are wasting their time arguing with someone who is far too stubborn to even grasp a basic argument against something they believe. She's bringing up crop circles, people. And aliens. She's trollin' you all!
Edit: Oh btw Queen-- I remember you saying you chose not to have kids. I think you'd be a prime example of why people should have kids with how you practice your logic and rationale. We need more of that in this world if we're ever going to get passed the old superstitions of yesterday. I imagine there's more reasons to it but consider it! For the sake of humanityyyyyyy!
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You can't prove there is no God! So please stop acting like you can. A certain someone says it is impossible, it's not. Yes, I know the Flying Spaghetti Monster - we are talking about God. Quit being silly.
Let me ask you about the Unknown....Crop Circles and designs from the sky - looks like bugs, any ideas? The pyramids, Stonehendge?
marielissa, Please show me one statement I have made about disproving there is a God. You can't because I haven't. You actually refer to pyramids and Stonehenge as the Unknown?! Your own ignorance of the world is showing again. As queenofnines said, they were built by humans and have also been documented in factual publications, not a book full of allegory and fables supposedly intended to show us how to live and also includes fantasy lands of Heaven and Hell. The problem is, I am more than willing to listen to ideas from students of religion when they have their feet planted on the ground. People who also know what they are talking about and love to discuss/debate the other side of the question because they remain open minded. Your entire 'take' on God, heaven, hell, or any other BS you come up with is as intelligent and believable as the pills advertised on TV that "Burn 50 pounds of belly fat in 30 days and you don't have to do a thing!"
I am still sitting here completely blown away after reading that bit about pyramids. You really should get out in the real world or start informing yourself of life beyond your nose. Maybe you would have a better outlook on the days you still have to suck breath here. Ah, never mind - you probably already own the diet pills. I heard the can be dangerous for trolls though. Kind of like getting gremlins wet.
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
lol good 4 u thank for sharing i would have died W/O that post
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I know this is a rather late response, and I will admit that I haven't read through the thread--just some particular random posts--so I apologize if I am treading over ground that has already been covered.
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Hmm, well I really don't know what sugar-coated word I could use that could be seen as more considerate. I consider myself lucky for being able to get out of the Christian lifestyle, as most people will not be able to. They are too far-gone in their brainwashing and so desperately need more comfortable answers when it comes to death, purpose, etc. My husband was raised strictly Mormon and was able to get out of that on his own;
I think you would be complicating the matter from a scientific/philosophical view. Instead, in a sociological context the conversation can be intelligible.
As for having "proof" that god does not exist, no, you can not 100% prove that,
I don't deny "proof" in the traditional sense. I deny "proof" in the Modernist sense. Of course, so did all the greatest secular philosophers of the second half of the 20th century...
All this I am doing is asking you to give "proof" for any of your claims. You don't seem to be able to move beyond mockery, as evident in other posts, and the assumption that secular humanism is somehow "neutral" or "natural." One major point of bringing up all these different philosophers and such is to demonstrate that it's only "neutral" from the provincial perspective of somehow raised with secular humanist assumptions. (Which is true of basically any American, including those raised in Christian homes.)
but it is akin to my saying that there is an invisible three-headed purple dragon in my garage.
Yes, it is certainly better to believe in god in general rather than subscribe to any conventional religion. But THERE IS NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the natural processes in which our world was brought about had anything to do with a god. I'm with the logical crowd in that no one can 100% say there isn't a creator (just as we can't 100% prove that there isn't an invisible pink unicorn who kisses me on the forehead at night), but where does the evidence point??
You are absolutely correct that the Christian God, belief and faith appear to you no different than does your "Invisible Colored Mythical Creature". There is no argument there.
But if you know you invented the invisible three-headed purple dragon (from Sagan) and so therefore know it is fake, then what you're saying is not that similar to having "proof" that god does not exist. They are different from each other. Christians didn't invent God. The credibility of your argument falls as the IPD does not share this commonality with God. Your thinking fails when you debate using a false "given". God is not akin to invisible dragons or unicorns. They have absolutely no backing.
You cannot prove that there isn't! That may sound silly, but it's true.
God cannot be compared to such things. On the one hand, we have looked through a lot of the world and never found an invisible three-headed purple dragon. However, such looking is irrelevant when it comes to the existence of God, because He is not a space-time entity. At best, this only tells us that we don't yet have good reason to believe either way. On the other hand, God is taken to be transcendental in nature. God is taken to be categorically different than all these things, because they are creatures/creations and He is taken to be the Creator. Both of these converge to say that discussing the existence of God is different from discussing whether or not there is milk in the fridge.
As far as I'm concerned, the possibility for god is virtually non-existent so it's understandable why one would just round that figure down to zero. If the Christian god actually did exist, I would want nothing to do with him based on the Bible.
While god is *a possibility* just like my pink unicorn is *a possibility*, the evidence is very highly AGAINST that being the case to the point that it is acceptable to "round down" the possibility of god to zero.
Basically what you just said is that theists haven't proven empirically that God exists. All the above claim amounts to is, "I don't agree with them." We know this, but the rhetoric isn't needed. I agree that empirical methods are legitimate, but you need to prove that we are limited to them. Or else you have no case nor accountability for this "lack of evidence."
The scientific explanations for the universe are abundant.
And, yet again, not everyone is an empiricist. You are skipping ahead. Prove empiricism, as the claim that we are limited to empirical methods, and your claim that the possibility for god is virtually non-existent according to empiricism may have some purpose.
But Christians will always have their ridiculous excuses as to why the evidence isn't good enough. It's all from the devil, they'll say, or you just got to have "faith" and leave it at that.
You'd be hard-pressed to find in the Bible a faith-evidence dichotomy, as they are not mutually exclusive.
Additionally, evidence, in the sense of being simply facts and not merely utility, cannot be faulty. They are the dots, and the dots are true, as the evidence is just the facts and facts cannot be wrong.
However, it is what we think the dots picture that is important. How we use/interpret the facts is where fault comes in. So evidence is not faulty, but conclusions you draw from evidence are faulty.
For instance, I could say that your conclusions of the following evidence, research, etc are faulty:
I was shocked upon discovering there wasn't a god, but I was backed with enough evidence, research, and common sense that I personally could not deny the facts on a godless existence even if I wanted to.
It appears to me that through most of your posts you have accounted for this proposition by the links and TUH that you have provided by appeal to authority (never mind that this is a logical fallacy.)
So your argument that the utter lack of evidence in favor of God's existence is enough proof to support atheism is basically, if we already think that atheism is right, then we can conclude that atheism is right?
This is not very convincing.
Even if your premise is correct, though, it's not just support for atheism. For instance, it could just demonstrate that God can't communicate with us, for some reason.
No one will change on this matter unless they personally have the desire to. That is to say it has to be in the fundamental nature/personality of a religious person to value deep contemplation and have the courage to admit that everything they know may be wrong.
This is a non-sequitor fallacy. The latter doesn't automatically lead to the former.
http://www.godisimaginary.com/
As for the http://www.godisimaginary.com/ link, I'm skeptical as to if visitors did anything more than skim it. Even if it's not written by Richard Dawkins, it brings up some very good points, even if you don't like it's style. The only reason I suggested it is because it presents its info in a much easier style than other sources....
when I brought up the godisimaginary link, someone accused that website of being like a "your mama" joke and I was like what?? The points brought up by these webmasters played a part in convincing this once-Christian
Their arguments don't seem very rigorous.
Honestly, the most annoying thing about it is that they are trying to use logic. All the "if... then".. The problem is that, one, they are are not very logical and two, logic doesn't prove anything, unless you can first agree on a couple of base sentences.
For example, the statement at the end:
The only way for Jesus to prove that he is resurrected is to appear to people. Therefore, each person needs an appearance by Jesus to know that he is real.
Clasic 'if... then' statement. Does the statement prove that Jesus has to appear to people? Of course not. It could only prove that, if we all agreed that "the only way for Jesus to prove that he is resurrected is to appear to people". Now, did he successfully prove that in the article? No. What he did, was put together a bunch of Christianeese responses as a proof of assertion fallacy. Not one scholarly response in the entire document.
In my opinion, this person isn't a real apologist, or logical. He is using quick and easy methods to try to attack Christianity.
Admittedly, I know they can bring their meat & potatoes of their belief (since it's hard to prove that which does not manifest itself regularly to sensory observation,) but just by that sentence alone the person is making the assumption that what is real is empirically verifiable, which, in the history of science has only been held (and constructed by) a small minority of naturalistic scientists. Which ironically, was created from their own "un-empirically or logically justifiable" assumptions of reality.
...These are just a few of the MANY examples of god wanting death for people who disobey.
I don't understand how believers can read this stuff plain as day and make excuses for it. Saying "that was meant for a different time" is not true because Jesus said you are not to take away any word from the law! And anyway, that kind of *bleep* should not be in a "holy" book, spoken by a "loving, just" god under ANY circumstances. And if you are in the camp that thinks such horrible verses are just metaphors or something, you are extremely ignorant. I thought you saw the Bible as an "instructions for life" and history book, no?
For non-video resources, I recommend...http://www.evilbible.com.
This site is so anxious to 'willie nilly' prove anything in the Bible wrong that it overlooks some very important things. For instance, the Old Testament is basically a history book -- it is descriptive of what happened and what it meant for the people living through it, not prescriptive to how God wanted things to happen or how He wants them to happen today (necessarily).
With that being said, I just kind of glanced over the whole site and it's pretty thrown together. It would be like if I read through the Koran, looking for non-literal commands and contradictions, not taking into account any cultural or religious deviance, and tried to make a website about how evil the Koran was.
read actual books by Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris on the subject (try the library if you don't want to pay for 'em).
When did this debate take place btw?
It would have been much more worthy of a debate had Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens been swapped in so that Dr. Craig didn't "win" due to a slew of cheap shots.
I encourage you to read books by Richard Dawkins or whatever you would consider "respectable" that is on the atheist side. As for me, I am still capable of recognizing intelligence and what is truly true, even when the source is from an "average" person.
Why? They are equally folly and unpropitious as their antagonists. Besides, other than political preferences, there's no good existential reason to be very interested in this particular brand of militant atheism.
http://exchristian.net/ is another good source.
This is equivalent to 'Creationist-testimonial' websites. They are no more biased than the other.
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As for having "proof" that god does not exist, no, you can not 100% prove that, but it is akin to my saying that there is an invisible three-headed purple dragon in my garage. You cannot prove that there isn't! That may sound silly, but it's true.
Your "proof" that God does not exists is based entirely on supposition.
Interestingly enough, the naturalistic atheists/agnostics have claimed that laws of logic do govern reality. However, the problem is when asked how they know that these laws of logic exist or that they are absolute, we get answers like "Supposition" or "I don't know." They claim to have knowledge but won't substantiate it. Do I care whether or not the atheist knows the color of my eyes? No; it doesn't matter because the atheist has made no statement based on the color of my eyes. However, the atheists/agnostics have made statements based on logic. In accordance with that, I would ask them to account for said proposition.
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P.S. The whole dragon thing actually comes from Carl Sagan, not me. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
This was deliberately invented to prove a belief of the atheist - their belief that there is no God (meaning it's in the traditional atheist stance as opposed to the "proper" atheist stance; that is, the belief that we're not sure either way being agnosticism). No true scientist could ever allow themselves to invent a result to prove their hypothesis. As such, by mundane terms, the argument fails logical scrutiny before it even has a chance to argue for its merit. By its own invention of the IPD atheism undermines itself with hypocrisy; and the argument falls even still.
God has not been proven false. The IPD was false before it was invented.
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I was a "true" Christian for 5 years before I finally decided to do some research on the matter, and was shocked when I discovered solid evidence against the existence of any sort of god. Shocked because I truly had bought into the delusion of god like the next guy, but now I had found clear evidence that it's all a sham.
This is just as ludicrous as claiming there's solid evidence to support the existence of God. You girls are so full of self-righteousness-- it's quite am using, really. You've succeeded in becoming everything you supposedly detest.
it all comes down to the courage to THINK for yourself and question/analyze everything.
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Fortunately, those that are intelligent enough to examine the evidence know that there is no hell or god, anyway. :)
This whole response to the idea that atheists are silly to have evidence of God's non-existence just like someone else's claim to have evidence of God's existence reveals a very, very exclusive attitude toward epistemology and your general worldview. It basically comes across as saying that everyone who isn't an atheist is a moron, which is not only rude and annoying, but pointless to keep repeating, as it is pure rhetoric, lacking any sort of substantial argumentation.
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When I see folks refer to other faiths as a "scam" of "fairytales", it shows a lack of consideration and sets me off, but when I confront someone who claims they have "proof" either way that God exists or does not, then I really can't take anything they say seriously. C'mon now, Queen, you know that if such proof existed this matter would not be in contention. Please tell me you have another source other than that godisimaginary.com link, cause I perused that and it's just as one-sided and idiotic as any Christian site I've visited proclaiming they have definitive proof that the lawd does indeed exist.
The case that God doesn't exist is indeed where the default lies.
This is no way to debate. Assume that you are right at the outset, and then wait for me to disprove it? The Christian can just as easily assume Christianity at the outset, and wait around for you to disprove it.
You must prove God exists or have evidence, not the other way around.
Not only is this wrong in this case, it is irrelevant...
I was a "true" Christian for 5 years before I finally decided to do some research on the matter, and was shocked when I discovered solid evidence against the existence of any sort of god.
She has the burden of proof to put forth a worldview that comports with human experience. So far, she has not done so.
Anyone attempting to put forth any worldview has the burden of proof.
However, the problem is that there seems to me sufficient reason to believe that Christianity is true. So I'm going to need a good reason to disbelieve.
Bertrand Russel argued that it is impossible for mankind to argue logically against a teapot orbiting around the earth at incredible speeds if the teapot is so small that it is undetectable even by the most powerful telescopes and machines we have on earth.
He also went on to say that although we cannot argue against such a tea pot it would be completely silly to argue that it exists, it is, after all, an incredibly small tea pot that we cannot see.
I've already given primary criticisms of such a line of reasoning to queenofnines. As an addition to the final reason, I also stress that this frames the debate incorrectly. The debate between the atheist and the theist is not simply one about some base matter of fact (whether or not there is a tea pot orbiting Earth); the debate between the atheist and the theist comes down fundamentally to worldview-level commitments. If you suggest that atheism holds the prima facie in such a case, you are requiring that we begin with an atheistic worldview. This is obviously begging-the-question.
I for one, see no reason why I cannot claim that there is in fact, no omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being that is somehow listening to all the prayers of all the people in the world, and is capable of fathering human beings and making snakes talk.
Then I, as a Christian, make the following negative statement that "I see no reason why I cannot claim that there is no compelling evidence to believe that Christianity is anything but true." We can just keep rephrasing these, over and over again.
You can't give me an analogy accurate enough, I'm afraid.
Well, I just did it(or Betrand Russel)
This uses the "Is there more milk in the fridge?" fallacy that I referred queenofnines to earlier. The existence of the IPD or tea pot is an interesting piece of trivia which can be easily tested by observation and the like. The truth of Christianity is a complete re-visualization of the world, a complete new language and field of perception.
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on February 06, 2010, 05:38:00 pm (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=12027.msg137534#msg137534)
on February 06, 2010, 08:07:55 am (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=12027.msg137422#msg137422)
I have some "friends" that are atheists. I say "friends" because I care about them, I pray for them...but they are "earthly friends" because they don't believe in Heaven
True Christians are supposed to kill their atheist friends:
This probably isn't a fair or accurate statement.
Christian ethics is not and cannot be based on isolated appeals to scriptural commandments because the bible is not a list of do's and dont's. If you can't place what you're saying in the broader biblical narrative about creation and redemption and the kingdom of god and divine covenant and incarnation and crucifixion and resurrection and ascension and outpouring, then you're not talking Christian ethics.
"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God"
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (King James Version)
This is all talking about Israelites who stray from God, not about Gentiles. Today we apply these commands by means of excommunication -- the declaration of the removal of apostates from God's people.
And the Old Testament is just as "valid" as the New:
"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)
Virtually no Christians adhere to all of the Old Testament. The question isn't whether we hold to the Old Testament or not, but rather, which parts are still applicable today. It isn't that they "ignore" the Old Testament so much as they don't believe large sections (mainly the Law) were written for all cultures at all times.
What Would Jesus Do?...
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)
The Law is complex.
According to these verses, Scripture doesn't support your argument at all in the socio-cultural historical Christian context of today. Christians have had the law fullfilled in Christ and the Mosaic law is like prohibition is now. Hence it's really a non issue. If you haphazardly import sections of the law of Moses into our cultural context... it becomes immoral primarily because things such as laws are inter-related. So you can't just start picking laws and asking why we don't follow them in the same way anymore. Christ changed a lot of things about how the Law is applied.
So, the question is, do you love god enough to adhere to the Bible?
The statutes and ordinances are no longer in play, see Col 2:14. It was God's Law for Israel. It was not ever given to all the Gentile nations in the first place. Not every law is given to every person. For example, the priests had certain restrictions on them and had to wear certain clothes. Not all Jews had to keep all of these regulations, just the priests. And, we are not justified by the law but by grace through faith. Again, the Law is specifically complex, so sweeping assumptions and statements like yours are rarely, if ever, true.
Or do you throw out the parts that our worldly society doesn't agree with?
Well, there's always the question of how to take Biblical narrative and apply its authority in the contemporary horizon. However, you can never just grab isolated verses out of the Bible, Old or New Testament, and run with them. The Levitical Law, for instance, must be understood and applied by means of great wisdom, through the lens of what has happened in redemptive history since the giving of the Law, particularly Jesus.
Further, the OT Law was abolished when Jesus ushered in the New Covenant. All Old Testament laws of dietary, ceremonial, ritual and symbolism are no longer relevant but Old Testament laws of morality are but none of them are. The Law was given once and hasn't been re-given every time there has been a major change in covenantal/redemptive-historical situation. Each time we've had to build and apply wisdom in acting out our story, liturgical continuity is the fountainhead to all of it.
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I have lived miracles that I know would'nt be possible without a God. Go ahead and laugh because I know your thinking I'm a crazy, stupid, idiotic, Christian. I don't care what you think.
A "miracle" is commonly understood as something "supernatural" that "only God could do." But this implies this picture: The world keeps on running "naturally," and every once in a while God intervenes into the world and does something "supernatural." That's deism, not Christianity.
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I'd much rather live my life based on truth, reality, logic, and reason
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supported by heaps of observable evidence.
What empirical evidence do you have that empirical evidence and rational thought are your ultimate burden of proof?
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I was
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having doubts, asking questions, doing research, or being open-minded to what is scientifically observable or logically feasible.
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The key component to success in discovering the real truth is that you have to...have the ability to look at the facts, evidence, and research objectively and honestly,
Judging from this, and other posts you have made, you seem to be claiming that the basis for all our beliefs needs to be objectively verifiable evidence. My question is simple: Why? Why can emotion and other subjective influences be admitted? In fact, how can they not? It seems to me that you abstracting this too much and making it all universal and objective, which ignores the fact that beliefs are held by people, not by syllogisms.
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So either god is an idiot for blaming them for disobeying him before they even knew that disobedience was wrong, or
Ignorance does not equal innocence.
god knew that would happen and did it on purpose as part of his wacko "divine plan", in which case we have HIM to blame for the evils of the world, not Adam and Eve.
Sounds a bit like a schoolgirl who blames her cheating on the teacher because he left the answer sheet on his desk?
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Why would god, knowing full well what was going to happen anyway, set up an environment where he knew Adam and Eve would fail? Why would a loving god throw a tree in there that would kill his children?
But the nature of God's foreknowledge is non-causative.
Why did god allow the talking snake to be there?
You can't honestly say that Adam and Eve knew the ramifications of their choice, given you yourself said they did not know what good and evil was yet.
Why didn't he stop all your sins? The simple fact is that humans are given the choice to obey God or rebel against Him. Sometimes people's rebellion hurts others. Why didn't He stop Adam and Eve's rebellion which plunged us all into the state we're in now? Because they had a choice to make, and they made it.
"Well, the Lord said, 'let man choose,' and man did,
There's been sorrow and trouble in the world ever since."
- Rich Mullins
(never mind how obviously preposterous the notion of a talking snake is)
How anyone can believe and at least in principle, fundamentally posit if only for argument's sake, that God exists and is capable of creation ex-nihilo but not stretching the laws of science is beyond me. Even more so, your point is valid only if you're making the Bible into a scientific report about the creation of the world, but it's not. Genesis exists to give the Israelites a better picture of their God as the creator of the universe and was written in a way that they could understand.
God knew what was going to happen, so he set the dominoes in place FOR it to happen.
God's foreknowledge in no way necessitates causation.
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Why would god, knowing full well what was going to happen anyway, set up an environment where he knew Adam and Eve would fail?..God knew what was going to happen, so he set the dominoes in place FOR it to happen.
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God did not know Adam and Eve would sin.
This is a decent argument, if we're talking about a God that didn't write the Bible.
I'm not sure how you could interpret any of the prophetic writings if the future is unknowable even to God.
If God had created a world that could not be foreknown, why would He go to the trouble of telling us so many things that would one day happen?
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Why would god, knowing full well what was going to happen anyway, set up an environment where he knew Adam and Eve would fail? Why would a loving god throw a tree in there that would kill his children? Why did god allow the talking snake to be there (never mind how obviously preposterous the notion of a talking snake is)? God knew what was going to happen, so he set the dominoes in place FOR it to happen. You can't honestly say that Adam and Eve knew the ramifications of their choice, given you yourself said they did not know what good and evil was yet. I guess that doesn't matter, though!
Second, God did not know Adam and Eve would sin. They were perfect. His purpose was for them to have offspring and "fill the earth. It was supposed to stay a paradise. When Eve CHOSE to sin. It was her decision. When Adam followed her, he proved that he loved her more than he loved the creator of all things, including himself. We all have the right to choose. Nothing is predestined. Everyone has freewill. They knew God was their creator and they knew they were suppose to obey him.. but they didn't which led to consequences.
The question is, 'Why do we need to know?' Perhaps it is to satisfy the premise of an abstract philosophical argument, one which some use as a smokescreen to justify their rejection of God and which acts like a floodlight for others, exposing their rejection of God to the core. But for us the question is much more practical and personal: How do I deal with the pain of sin, suffering, and death? Habakkuk asks the question, 'Why does God wait to deliver us?'
Habakkuk 1:13
Your eyes are too pure to approve evil, and You can not look on wickedness with favor. Why do You look with favor on those who deal treacherously? Why are You silent when the wicked swallow up those more righteous than they?
Habakkuk cries out in anguish, entreating God to come quickly to the rescue. Adding to that, the first thing to realize is that God is to be praised no matter the case; God has already gone above and beyond what He had to do, so what is wrong if He allows evil to befall us?
Job 1:21
He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."
Yet God chose to deal decisively with sin and death and bless us, making many promises to us as His people: promises to inherit the world, promises to be vindicated and delivered, promises that He will wipe every tear away from our eyes. And all the promises of God are "Yes" in Christ Jesus; each promise has been signed and sealed with the blood of the Lamb. And the pattern of that Lamb is suffering before glory, humiliation before exaltation, death before life, abandonment before rescue. So here and now we follow in His footsteps, but God's salvation waits ready to be revealed at just the right time. So we look past the perishable suffering of today and unto the imperishable life of tomorrow, and we can trust in God's promise absolutely because it has been declared to all mankind when He raised our Lord from the dead.
Romans 8:35-39
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword ?
36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels , nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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I don't mean to be offensive when I say this, but it is a situation similar to doctors looking in on patients who have mental illnesses. The patients are convinced that what they are experiencing is real, but the doctors who can see reality and have dozens of medical studies to back their claims can clearly observe that the patients are delusional
Why didn't you say you believe doctors?? :heart: There's a doctor that has had patients become clinically dead...and then come back. While stories of people who die and "see a bright light" are very common, there aren't very many people that want to admit they went to hell like these people did, and the doctor documented it all and put it in his books. His book and video link:To Hell and Back, a study of NDE/OBE Near Death Experiences by
Dr. Maurice Rawlings, MD, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8149875636555097567# (The video is really long but for some reason the thing just stops at 44:19 minutes, I tried to get it to play a few times with no luck.)
I also know there is a God, I have seen, I have heard, I have felt, I have experienced! You will say "examples please", do I really need to go through everything just so you can say there is a reason unrelated to God.
I'm guessing your referring to your "mental" experiences that you've talked about numerous times in this forum...but as I've posted several pages back in this thread, I've "experienced god" in a mentally unhealthy way, too. Like I thought god was talking to me on the radio; I saw angels; I thought I was already dead and could decide to go to heaven or go back to Earth; and I thought I had to crucify myself like Jesus by stabbing myself in the heart...scary sh*t. The reality was none of this was "god" but instead by mind/body malfunctioning due to a virus and being extremely underweight.
God speaks to us through His Word. I'm weary of people's claims that God is speaking to them today, and I'm skeptical when people attribute God's hand to natural events.
Both of your concerns and experiences here seem more about Christians than Christianity itself.
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Oh and I will always rely on the bible instead of man-made philosophy, it's a snare that's easy for anyone to fall in it's probably Satan's greatest trap.
There's nothing wrong with education, however too much time away learning in Satan's world could get you mixed up in philosophy.[/b]
...500 years ago, ... the house-arrest of Galileo due to his findings not aligning with the bibles philosophy.
Not really.
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Christians are atheists, too, when it comes to Zeus, Ra, Vishnu, Allah, Krishna, etc. etc.
Not only does this sound like Dawkins fundieism, it is irrelevant to what "religion" or "atheism" really is, as it is more of a strawman and conflation from a bad form of debating than anything else.
The Bible says the earth is flat,
...the Bible also says the earth is flat...
The bible doesn't say that. Neither scripture or history implies this. Citation?
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It's obvious to any critical thinker that the Bible was written by scared, primitive, Bronze Age men and therefore should not be regarded as anything but a work of fiction.
Any critical thinker would see that statement as misinformation.
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Hell is mentioned in my bible
That's because the translators but the word hell where Sheol(hebrew) and Hades(Greek) is supposed to be. As for hellfire the Greek word for that is Gehenna. None of these words have the Greek meaning for hell so essentially if you take out the Greek meaning for hell you get common grave of mankind.
Bait and switch exegesis. The word for Hell has been translated variously dependant on the language in which it was translated into.
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I'm not sure how many people have seen this, but I'll post it. Carl Sagan wrote this. It has somewhat of a tie-in to what people are saying here.
It's hard to trust a man like Sagan who held to a criteria just like his opponents did but chose not to follow through.
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In science we are star DUST in the bible we are Dust from the ground. Logically the Star DUST had to settle on the ground. How could these stupid people, you call them know how to pin point what we are?
...the Bible also says...rabbits chew their cud (when they don't).
Actually that bit of scripture is not false. There is a certain rabbit in the part of the world they were in (and probably other parts also ;D,) which eats its own dung to gather nutrients, and the Israelites saw that as chewing the cud. So they didn't actually think that since the rabbit appears to chew constantly that it is chewing cud, but rather they felt that since it ate it's own dung it was technically doing the same thing.
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It's hard to trust a man like Sagan who held to a criteria just like his opponents did but chose not to follow through.
I never implied anything about the person. I just quoted what he stated about how miniscule our world is. I thought it would be of interest for people to see/read.
Edit: Btw good to see your head pop up again.
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Christians didn't invent God. The credibility of your argument falls as the IPD does not share this commonality with God. Your thinking fails when you debate using a false "given". God is not akin to invisible dragons or unicorns. They have absolutely no backing.
Yes, Christians didn't invent god. Humans did. Humans have invented gods throughout all history - way before the Christians - that's pretty obvious. Humans invent god(s) for evolutionary reasons (to explain things, to overcome pointless-ness and fear of death). There you have it.
Prove empiricism, as the claim that we are limited to empirical methods, and your claim that the possibility for god is virtually non-existent according to empiricism may have some purpose.
For one who is tossing around debate terms against me so as to sound intelligent, I'm sure you've heard that it is the believers making the claim for god that are required to provide "proof". That is absolutely ludicrous for you to say that everything we as humans have to show evidence for/against god isn't good enough. If someday there is tangible, observable evidence for god, we'll have to reexamine our position. But for now there is not, and god should be able to stand up to hard scrutiny if he really existed, don't you think?
It appears to me that through most of your posts you have accounted for this proposition by the links and TUH that you have provided by appeal to authority (never mind that this is a logical fallacy.) So your argument that the utter lack of evidence in favor of God's existence is enough proof to support atheism is basically, if we already think that atheism is right, then we can conclude that atheism is right? This is not very convincing.
Um, your own debate-speak is working against you right here. You lead me to assume that you don't know what you're talking about and are only trying to "sound smart". Please don't throw around terms like "appeal to authority" and "logical fallacy" unless they can actually stand up!!
My "appeals to authority" are examples of other intelligent individuals who address many things that people easily overlook, but by the powers of logic and rationale, can be known to be true and accurate. And as I've said earlier in this thread, lack of evidence for god was NOT good enough for me personally when I was first an atheist. I now know that there are hundreds of points AGAINST the Christian god specifically (me being an American and all, he's the relevant one), which solidifies my position.
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Everyone has different beliefs, whether in God or in something else. I myself believe in God, I believe there will be a time in your life were you are going to want to believe God exist. These are troubling times so I pray you find your journey to God, because if you believe in peace, & love that is what God is all about. :)
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Interestingly enough, the naturalistic atheists/agnostics have claimed that laws of logic do govern reality. However, the problem is when asked how they know that these laws of logic exist or that they are absolute, we get answers like "Supposition" or "I don't know." They claim to have knowledge but won't substantiate it. Do I care whether or not the atheist knows the color of my eyes? No; it doesn't matter because the atheist has made no statement based on the color of my eyes. However, the atheists/agnostics have made statements based on logic. In accordance with that, I would ask them to account for said proposition.
Also interesting is the fact that in the debate that a gal named Lacey recommended we watch, a Christian in the audience also said this. My reaction was along the lines of, "Seriously? What an idiot!" Not saying that you are an idiot, but it is really dumb to taunt, "How do you know logic is true? Hahaha!"
Um, we know logic is true because our world would be chaos without it. We wouldn't be able to make sense of anything, get anything done, or survive very long. You use logic and rationale in your everyday life, in everyday things, and you know it. You even have thrown terms like "logical fallacy" at me, so what do you mean, you doubt logic?
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It basically comes across as saying that everyone who isn't an atheist is a moron, which is not only rude and annoying, but pointless to keep repeating
No, I do not think non-atheist = 100% moron. That would be arrogant and incorrect of me. However, the part of the brain where they hold these religious beliefs IS immature and faulty. There are plenty of brilliant people that use logic and rationale in every aspect of their lives except for the god bit. On the other hand, there are many people who allow the immature and faulty part of their brain to rule the majority of their lives. These are the people that murder gays, blow up abortion clinics, and fly planes into buildings. I do not feel wrong at all for referring to that lot as morons.
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My question is simple: Why? Why can emotion and other subjective influences be admitted?
Because that's like saying, "Judge, forgive me, I murdered my husband because he called me names and didn't put the toilet seat down when he knows I don't like that and wore a shirt I thought was ugly." Sorry, feelings don't mean sh*t ultimately when it comes to justifying important matters.
May I ask why you are mainly quoting all of my posts? Your onslaught of messages comes across as uninformed ramblings...
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I agree with you. I also attended church on a regular basis, sang in the church choir and had even made up songs for the church.
Then as a got older I realized "What a minute I see people going out drinking-gambling-molesting-etc and they call themselves a Christian".
Next I started having my daughter's ask me "Mommy why did grandpa or daddy do that and they aren't being punished for what they did wrong? Mommy, where did God live if he made everything? Mommy how come our country isn't shown in this Bible?" So I stated asking the preacher or decon at the church we were attending. Needless to stay within 3 months my daughter's and I were asked to leave the church and not come back. When I asked "WHY?" I was told "You are putting doubt in the minds of the others." OK so in other words
because the preacher/decon didn't know the answer to our questions nor wanted to admit they didn't have the answer it was better to dismiss my daughter's and I.
So my theory is simple. Believe in the Spirits that surround you. Believe in yourself and question the things you do not understand. When you are not sure ask yourself the question and then wait for the answer to come to you. You will be surprised at what appears before you.
EXAMPLE: OMG where in the world did I put those keys at? Then stop and not do anything and see what happens.Hell is mentioned in my bible
That's because the translators but the word hell where Sheol(hebrew) and Hades(Greek) is supposed to be. As for hellfire the Greek word for that is Gehenna. None of these words have the Greek meaning for hell so essentially if you take out the Greek meaning for hell you get common grave of mankind.
Bait and switch exegesis. The word for Hell has been translated variously dependant on the language in which it was translated into.
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Edit: Oh btw Queen-- I remember you saying you chose not to have kids. I think you'd be a prime example of why people should have kids with how you practice your logic and rationale. We need more of that in this world if we're ever going to get passed the old superstitions of yesterday. I imagine there's more reasons to it but consider it! For the sake of humanityyyyyyy!
Aww, that's sweet! And yes, I've thought that myself...that humanity will suffer if scientists/atheists/freethinkers continue to be out-numbered. Bringing more reality soldiers into the world would be the best reason to have kids.
My reasons for not wanting them are what people label as "selfish"...which is really ironic, because in my opinion, the vast majority of people HAVE kids for selfish reasons (to give their lives "purpose", to have a cute mini-me, to get joy from watching their offspring experience things). You rarely hear people saying, "Oh, I want to give some of the sperm/eggs I'm carrying around a shot at life" or for the mentioned reason of needing more intelligent genes in the world.
I'm still young, though (b.1985), so maybe my evolutionary maternal instinct will finally kick in in a few years. ;)
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There is a god cause it wouldn't be me or a you......
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I'm still young, though (b.1985), so maybe my evolutionary maternal instinct will finally kick in in a few years
Yeah I'm '84. We must progress! Idiocracy! We must not allow this to happen!
http://www.spike.com/video/first-10-minutes-of/2811209
(other clips on side)
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Yeah I'm '84. We must progress! Idiocracy! We must not allow this to happen!
http://www.spike.com/video/first-10-minutes-of/2811209
(other clips on side)
Hey! I've seen that movie! I was a Christian then when I first saw it, I believe! And I can remember agreeing with the intro on the side of the intelligent people...first embers of theistic doubt, anyone? ;)
Thanks for the refresh! Have you seen The Invention of Lying? I highly recommend it.
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I often like to read my favorite posts on here to my husband (it garners lots of lols), and today he was so inspired by one of you, he personally wrote this response:
Regarding "Stealth3si": This person's ostentatious efforts at maintaining a pseudo-intellectual veneer is undermined by their frequent lapses into hypocritical quackery. They start off trying (very hard) to seem fluent in philosophy -- at this point, it seems that they are a solipsistic, nihilistic, anti-empiricist Philosophy 101 student. And then, suddenly, in a flash of DID, they begin making strange claims to knowledge about Christian ethics, the Bible, and the very mind of god -- all the while providing no support whatsoever. It's as if their interpretation is the obvious one, and should require no evidence. Logical terms are thrown about spasmodically in a flailing attempt to justify what it is that they already believe. The levels of intellectual dishonesty here amazes me -- my brain could not handle such high levels of doublethink.
Some of my favorites:
-"I don't deny "proof" in the traditional sense. I deny "proof" in the Modernist sense. Of course, so did all the greatest secular philosophers of the second half of the 20th century..." (Does he drive a Prius too?)
-"Christians didn't invent God. The credibility of your argument falls as the IPD does not share this commonality with God. Your thinking fails when you debate using a false "given"." (Self-contradiction within the same breath, excellent!)
-"However, such looking is irrelevant when it comes to the existence of God, because He is not a space-time entity." (Hahahaha, no comment necessary!!!)
-"God has not been proven false. The IPD was false before it was invented." (Intentionally misconstruing the point of the analogy. Ugh, disgusting.)
-"All this I am doing is asking you to give "proof" for any of your claims." (This person values proof, if I am reading this correctly.)
-"Anyone attempting to put forth any worldview has the burden of proof." (Again, proof.)
-"Christian ethics is not and cannot be based on isolated appeals to scriptural commandments because the bible is not a list of do's and dont's." (Oh! Wow, I guess I was just mislead by the hundreds of sects of Christianity that state the exact opposite. They don't have any evidence for their claims, but I bet you do, since you value proof so much.)
-"The question isn't whether we hold to the Old Testament or not, but rather, which parts are still applicable today." (And there is no criterion to determine which parts still apply and which don't. The Bible is such a massive, ambiguous, contradictory text that you can simply interpret it however you like.)
I can't go on. There is no honest search for knowledge here, and no true valuing of proof or evidence.
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@marieelissa:
IF you are going to cite the writings of someone, you really should give them the credit for it. I for one am not 'suddenly braindead', so I know YOU did not write that even though you framed it as if you did. It is simply standard to do so, thanks.
@queenofnines:
Valiant attempt at replying to Stealth3si. Much of what you said was along the lines of my thinking. I have been gone all day and just saw the new postings. I immediately decided it was not worth covering what you already had and truthfully, by the time I read it all, I wasn't sure what point had even been made since every other sentence contradicted the one before it. I am fairly sure your posts will be cited again (yes, that was very blatant, but perhaps a compliment) in lengthy, obtuse, and vague preponderance on his/her part in order to sound superior as far as knowledge. It all reminded me of 'politician-speak'. Use 10,000 words to say what could have been said in 100 and by the time you get done, no one will even know what you said or what your stance is. I heartily agree that God should be able to withstand tough scrutiny from any and all who question his existence. By the way, why IS it always assumed God is male?
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I just wish you Atheists and Agnostics would stop being so FREAKING rude to people that don't share your opinion. Someone will come on here and say, I believe in God, and it is like you are ready to sit back and try and make fun of them. It is unnessasary and mean. Maybe the reason your so FREAKIN cold and hateful to others is the reality your in, and how you think of life.
Is believing in God really that bad, does it make me and others bad people? Yeah, I understand the past and what happend but that is a sterotype. As in ALL WHITE PEOPLE are responsible for blacks being slaves?!? I am not responsible for what other people do, so my belief in God is just like...
But whatever you believe what you want, do what you want, think of the believers how you choose...whatever helps you sleep at night. I just wish and pray that you people, every single one of you could one day just be a little nicer and not come down so hard on people.
I just wish you would Evolve in a big Giant JUMP and stop being so Mammal in behavior and more HUMAN-LIKE.
I copied this just incase you delete it.
A.) This is a thread about how people don't believe in god. And uneducated people (unable to be rational and lack of biblical knowledge) come in here all yippy-skippy thinking they can disprove those beliefs with...well...nothing but superstitions and creationist science junk. That is funny. We aren't cold. If you stood on a different side of the fence or saw it from an aerial viewpoint, you would understand. But with your post history, I know that will never happen.
B.) No. Not all whites or their great great grandfathers are slave-makers. But racism still runs rampant and we've got to do away with it. Just like superstitions that control peoples every move and thought.
C.) Humans are mammals. But if you mean we would be less primitive in nature, many religious stories that people will kill themselves over-- they should not be taken seriously and instead just be taken as either outdated myths or good moral stories. This includes massive crowds believing in a personalized god or gods, cloud-heaven, rape-me-in-the-butt hell, talking snake, etc.
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guys, cant we all just have our own beliefs and be satisfied with that, respected the beliefs of other people as well? :BangHead:
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All I was trying to get across is Einstein believed in God.
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein in a letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." -- Letter to an atheist (1954), quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman
"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being." -- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, quoted by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." -- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930
"Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being." -- Albert Einstein in 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray; quoted in: Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffmann
Oh yeah marieelissa, and like, Charles Darwin recanted on his deathbed, psh! ::)
Seriously, do some freaking RESEARCH before you toss around rumors as if they are fact.
** Sources: About.com
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I do believe in God, but I'm questionable about the Bible.
It's supposed to be God's word, but it was still written by man.
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@marielissa:
Walter Isaacson, the author in your link, also got taken to task and laughed at by most literary and scientific critics for using all those (supposed) quotes from Einstein in such a way as to be completely out of context. The author misrepresented Einstein's views by failing to describe exactly what he meant by "religion" ie the mysteries of the Universe itself. Not a theistic God and he certainly did not believe that Jews (his 'people') were the chosen people of God. I'll repeat it, do some research before you put something out there!
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This is where I got the Einstein Stuff and Queen I think my website has more credibility than yours.
http://www.time.com/time/2007/einstein/16.html
Hmm, that's interesting. That article you linked to was written in 2007, when the quotes I mentioned were not revealed (via his letters) until 2008. Again, RESEARCH!!
Sources: The NY Times, MSNBC, The Huffington Post, and dozens of other news sources
You have a real problem little girl.
I always find it hilarious when someone who is only a couple years older than another person "talks down" to the person, as if they have leagues of more life experience than the other person does!
In any event, I'd rather be labeled as a little girl than a crazy troll any day. **wink****wink**
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@marielissa:
Walter Isaacson, the author in your link, also got taken to task and laughed at by most literary and scientific critics for using all those (supposed) quotes from Einstein in such a way as to be completely out of context. The author misrepresented Einstein's views by failing to describe exactly what he meant by "religion" ie the mysteries of the Universe itself. Not a theistic God and he certainly did not believe that Jews (his 'people') were the chosen people of God. I'll repeat it, do some research before you put something out there!
Proof please! Where is your source? Show me and if you can't then STFU!
I'll tell you how this works, since you have no idea. You do your own research on it and, if you do it correctly, you'll find citings to back up what I said. Here is a hint- S. Hawking and R. Dawkins.
Ah yes, "STFU". Yet another 'Christian' phrase showing intellect (note, did NOT say 'intelligence') and an adult way of getting your point across. You have so much to learn and are a disgrace to people close to the same age you are like Falconer and queenofnines. They are in the same age group as my youngest son and and as with him, I enjoy hearing their views on things because they explore the world, research if needed, and don't make idiotic statements based purely on feelings and not facts. You would do well to learn from them and others on how to conduct yourself within a discussion - of any kind.
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You changed your age on your profile?????!!!!! Now you are 16 all of a sudden? You need serious help......
That also makes it seem as if every single post on other topics was all :bs: too. Bet you didn't think about that one, did you? For the record, I looked at your profile/age when I initially started reading the 'crap' you wrote everywhere. Unbelievable.
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I said look up things said about the author and book you referred to/posted the link to, NOT what they personally though about religion. Forget it, you don't know that you don't know and that makes you a lost cause as far as I am concerned.
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You changed your age on your profile?????!!!!! Now you are 16 all of a sudden? You need serious help......
Well that's certainly closer to the age she acts. Haha. That's pretty funny because I was going to put an asterisk after the part where I said "only a couple years older than another person" and include "(or so she claims, she could be 16 for all we know)". But I cut that part out because I try to, you know, make things not sound too wordy or unclear.
My husband also said she sounds like she is in high school.
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This is really really sad. What a weirdo.
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How many posts are you going to put up about Hawkings that have nothing to do with my comment earlier? I said his views on the book you brought up, NOT his views on religion. You are such a lying hypocrite that your posts have no business even being here, so please follow your usual M.O. and delete them. While you're at it, why not delete your account too? I wonder if FC has a policy about lying as far as your personal info. Hmmm, I believe they just might. My son, the youngest one (26) read through some of this and laughed his a** off! He also said, "I know what you would have done IF I ever walked into the house with a girl (he didn't use 'girl', I did) like her!" :thumbsup:
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guys, cant we all just have our own beliefs and be satisfied with that, respected the beliefs of other people as well? :BangHead:
:thumbsup:
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Why do you assume people believe in God because the above two things: Purposelessness and death? So if it a natural human fear, wouldn't that mean you have it also?
Seriously now...those ARE the main reasons people subscribe to religion. While there are certainly other reasons - a sense of "community", for example - feeling like there's a point to/more than the 70 or so years people get before they die and are gone forever IS THE PRIME PRODUCT ALL RELIGION IS SELLING. Another major/important reason people believe is because life can sometimes suck, and they want to feel like they have a paternal figure looking out for them when their dog gets run over by a car, their mom gets cancer, their house gets broken into...
As for it being a "natural human fear", of course we all consider the above things at some point - it is in our genes to do such. It's just some us (like me) are able to get over the fact that we will die, life can suck/be pointless, and this is it. Some of us do not need a fake security blanket to get through life.
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quote author=marieelissa
"I believe people want answers and knowledge more than anything. Just believing in God satifies this lack of knowledge until something else comes along."
There, I edited your post to say what it really should. And a lot of answers *are* out there (regarding our origins, for example); people are either too lazy to take the time to educate themselves, or they don't accept the harsh truths that science offers.
"I asked myself that question when I was a child, how can I delude myself into thinking my parents love me when they take away my toys and ground me and spank me."
Ask yourself how god can love you when he says, "You have free will to follow me, but if you don't, I will torture you forever". Not quite the same as your human parents, sorry.
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You think people couldn't cope and function if they knew the truth about God? I know Atheists probably couldn't but let's just assume he isn't there...people adapt they are very adaptable.
Okay, that part I bolded of yours makes no sense. Atheists already are coping.
As for people being adaptable, yes, a lot of people who be just fine if they abandoned their God Habit. They would simply have to adjust their thinking in some areas.
As for ALL people being adaptable to there not being a god...no. We are not there yet as a species. Some people would get really depressed and kill themselves, while others would think there being no god gives them a free pass to go out and do awful things with no consequence (uh, there would still be judicial consequences, idiots!).
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You say: That is what religious people are being close-minded about, because they are so scared of that being true that they completely overlook it as even being an available reality.
I ask: Why do you think people are like this? Maybe because they are human and having kids and they love themselves or other people. I don't think it a bad thing because I get the feeling you are trying to make it look like it is. I just think this is the problem Intelligent advanced life forms run into. Do you think any other life on Earth cares if there is a God or Heaven? LOL
I might add I am religious and I know it is a 50/50 chance whether there's a God or not.
Why are people scared to think there's no god? Because then life suddenly becomes very fragile and unstable. You could die at any moment and be gone forever as an atheist. Or you could live a good life to a ripe ol' age and then die, but that is still but a speck and pointless compared to the grand cosmological timespan. Once your life is over, nothing you have ever said or done or felt will have mattered (unless you do something important that survives a few generations). So, people naturally think, what's the point of living at all?? It's very, very scary at first to accept that all of this bullsh*t that makes our world go 'round is ultimately pointless.
And beliefs are a bad thing when they oppose on other peoples' rights to happiness and a free life (gays not being allowed to marry or blowing random people up in the name of your god, to name a small few).
Things are rarely 50/50 in anything. Given the current evidence, I'd say it's 99.99/.01...the larger number being against any supernatural element.
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Once your life is over, nothing you have ever said or done or felt will have mattered. So, people naturally think, what's the point of living at all?? It's very, very scary at first to accept that all of this bullsh*t that makes our world go 'round is ultimately pointless.
Are you speaking for yourself and how you feel? Because that is not how I feel. It matters now because it is happening now. Who cares what happens after you die. You need to live in the now. The point of living is to live. Life is not pointless if you live it. Don't be so concerned about the next chapter and finish the one you are in now.
Quote from: marieelissa on April 28, 2010, 11:36:52 am
Life isn't better than Heaven, and that is why I can't wait for it to be over. I know I will go to Heaven when I die.
My outlook on life is fine, but compared to Heaven...well life is not so great.
***********************************************************************************
So, yet again, you contradict yourself? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.......
Get off the fence and figure out what you actually stand for.
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Trollin' trollin' trollin',
Marie keeps a trollin',
Trollin' everybody,
Rawhide!
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(http://andrusadvantage.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/train_wreck1.jpg)
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YES.
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That's not what I meant. If we found out there was a God then Atheists couldn't cope knowing there were going to Hell for all the stuff they did against God.
If this god character turned out to be real, I would be very, very confused. My husband says it best: "I would think it'd be more likely that aliens are f**king with us than it actually being god".
First question: which god? If it's determined to be Yahweh, the god of aforementioned hell, it won't be just atheists going there but 4 billion other people who aren't Christians. I would ask this god why he behaves like such a 2-year-old and created a world where all of our science and logic points AWAY from him??
I wouldn't feel bad for "all the stuff I did against god", because I truly didn't have evidence that he existed, so how could I be at fault?
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Are you speaking for yourself and how you feel? Because that is not how I feel. It matters now because it is happening now. Who cares what happens after you die. You need to live in the now. The point of living is to live. Life is not pointless if you live it. Don't be so concerned about the next chapter and finish the one you are in now.
It's not so much a matter of how I feel, it's the truth. I do think my realization of there not being a god and this is all there is DOES play some role in how I conduct myself. I am the opposite of a lot of the status quos, for example. I truly think for myself and make decisions for my lifestyle based on me rather than what society wants/expects me to do.
I agree life matters now if you've decided to hang around and see it out. I know not to take things too seriously and instead make it a point to have as many rich EXPERIENCES as possible (travel the world, for example).
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People change, Peoples beliefs change, People can change overnight. Just because I said something one day doesn't mean I have to stand by it the rest of my life. So if that is contradiction...then so be it.
People "can" change, but more often they don't...they remain the same basic person, with both good and bad qualities. People who constantly change their most basic stances on things are known as flakes.
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
I believed there are a God who guide us through life even though we have difficult in life. I also believe one there are another life after this life. I'm a religious and I proud of myself. Even though a lot of difference believe out their but all their belief only teach you the right out of life even you religious or Budda. How you live in life is important, not what other live can effect your faith do you agree?
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I really think you use your head (think) too much. Some things are better left to be felt with the heart, as in love. Do you really love anyone or just use logic and over analyze everything?
I personally know people who "use their heads" even more so than me. There are some who claim that every act of the universe is already determined, and we as humans are really just along for the ride. Every choice we make in life we would make again if we were put in the same exact condition, in other words. That is hard for even me to accept, even if it might be true. I like to be a little more positive, optimistic, and joyous than that. And yes, I do have the capacity to love certain people.
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Well looks to me like this thread is approaching an interesting Number of replies lol
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honestly, who really cares if someone believes in God or not? Just worry about yourselves. Everyone has their own opinion about EVERYTHING. If I believe in God, I believe in God. If the person next door doesn't believe in God then that's there opinion. Not for me to worry about it....
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honestly, who really cares if someone believes in God or not? Just worry about yourselves. Everyone has their own opinion about EVERYTHING. If I believe in God, I believe in God. If the person next door doesn't believe in God then that's there opinion. Not for me to worry about it....
But we need to know who's going to hell and all, psh! ??? :o
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If I believe in God, I believe in God. If the person next door doesn't believe in God then that's there opinion.
The problem is it infiltrates areas where being rational is a dire aspect. It creates irrational logic being applied to that aspect which can affect more people than just yourself. Politics is a good example.
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Yeah just let it sit and stay at 666. :thumbsup:
I :heart: that number!!!! :thumbsup:
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I do believe in God. How can anyone not?
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I :heart: that number!!!! :thumbsup:
So do I! Although 7-7-7 will get you more at a casino...weird, because god hates gambling.
I do believe in God. How can anyone not?
Many, many reasons.
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So do I! Although 7-7-7 will get you more at a casino...weird, because god hates gambling.
Well i think he does like casino night at the church and bingo
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But we need to know who's going to hell and all, psh! ??? :o
No WE don't. That's for God to know. Why do WE need to know who's going to heaven or hell?
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Well, in my stance on the subject I am neither Christian or Atheist. I was raised Apostolic, walked the Path closely for 15 years. I left it because I felt there was more that I was looking for than what I was getting.
:) I am now happily Pagan.
I found my niche in spirituality and it works for ME, that's all that matters. It doesn't matter to me what religion anyone is from or even if they believe only in themselves. What matters is the character of the person and how they choose to act.
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I don't think, I KNOW!! Wow, it is too bad that you won't open your heart. I pray that God will show you, that God will come into your life and you will believe. For me, I was running around drinking partying, and wasting my life away, I figured I was only going to die, might as well get there quicker, yeah right, I seen all my rummy pals, die pretty quick also, they were young, then God wanted me to see other things, it is amazing how my life has changed. I tried everything to quit drinking, nothing helped, I just didn't have the will, why should I stop, ya know, I had nothing and no one, as far as I was concerned. But I seen something that changed all that, and I guess that was the only way, I pray your heart changes, but until you believe, you won't believe, and ya probably dont' even know what that means. Ya gotta have faith, He loves us, He created us. He sent His Son for us. The devil is the one who controls doubt and disbelief, and when that is present, well, I will let you draw the rest.
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I also say, I cannot believe anyone can congratulate this. How can you serve two masters, you either serve God or you serve the devil, there is a heaven and a hell. that is it. No more. Do you think humans created themselves, ha look what we can do. We certainly can mess alot of things up that is for sure. Yea, congratulations for speaking your mind, none here. I serve God.
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I also say, I cannot believe anyone can congratulate this. How can you serve two masters, you either serve God or you serve the devil, there is a heaven and a hell. that is it. No more. Do you think humans created themselves, ha look what we can do. We certainly can mess alot of things up that is for sure. Yea, congratulations for speaking your mind, none here. I serve God.
So why exactly can't God and the Devil sit down together and have a freakin' round of MOJITOS and shoot the sh@#????
That's exactly why I give no truth to belief in God and religion, because every ideal it embodies is so separated-which is contradictory to the whole idea of belief to begin with!!!!
Sooooooooo if you serve God, what bar do you work at, and what kind of drinks does God like?????? Is God just one of your regular barflies??? Does "silent" J show up with him, or does he drink alone??? Does God play darts? Does he smoke Cuban cigars, or does he prefer Black and Milds?? Drinking Games???? Has he ever had to be carded??? Has he ever gotten thrown out of the bar for accidentally changing all of the beer taps to fine wines???? :angel12:
OMG!!!! God is the Master???? He's a GOLFER??!?!?!?! WOW I had no Idea!!! When did he win the Masters Cup, he's probably REALLY GOOD at Golf, and instead the traditional Green jacket-I bet you they made it technocolored!!!! What's his favorite club in his bag? Is "silent" J his catty??? Has he ever been in a playoff with the big "D" and Tiger Woods or John Daly??????? If so, who won?.....
These are questions I must know the answers to.....Please enlighten me, all knowing master server!!!!!!! :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:
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Wow, it is too bad that you won't open your heart. I pray that God will show you, that God will come into your life and you will believe. For me, I was running around drinking partying, and wasting my life away, I figured I was only going to die, might as well get there quicker, yeah right, I seen all my rummy pals, die pretty quick also, they were young, then God wanted me to see other things, it is amazing how my life has changed.
Why do most Christians assume the people who don't buy into their religion are all drug-dealing, stealing, killing, whorish drunkards? I don't smoke, I don't drink, stealing and killing are bad m'kay, and I don't sleep around. If you need some imaginary deity to prevent you from doing these things, then I say that's sad, but go for it.
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tzs's post
lol That's hilarious!
I also say, I cannot believe anyone can congratulate this. How can you serve two masters, you either serve God or you serve the devil, there is a heaven and a hell. that is it. No more. Do you think humans created themselves, ha look what we can do. We certainly can mess alot of things up that is for sure. Yea, congratulations for speaking your mind, none here. I serve God.
We congratulate it because it is you, my dear, who does not know who is truly correct in this situation. Hard lesson about life: just because the masses follow one way does not make it correct or right. And the two masters are Impossible Wishful Thinking vs. Reality, NOT "the good guy" vs. "the bad guy".
No, humans did not create themselves...well, at least not in the beginning, which is what I assume you're referring to. We're doing too much of "creating ourselves" today, lol. In regards to your phrase, "Ha, look what we can do" I refer back to why god was so incompetent in the first place that he couldn't understand basic logic...Adam and Eve could not know eating the magical fruit was wrong until after they ate it!
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So why exactly can't God and the Devil sit down together and have a freakin' round of MOJITOS and shoot the sh@#????
That's exactly why I give no truth to belief in God and religion, because every ideal it embodies is so separated-which is contradictory to the whole idea of belief to begin with!!!!
Sooooooooo if you serve God, what bar do you work at, and what kind of drinks does God like?????? Is God just one of your regular barflies??? Does "silent" J show up with him, or does he drink alone??? Does God play darts? Does he smoke Cuban cigars, or does he prefer Black and Milds?? Drinking Games???? Has he ever had to be carded??? Has he ever gotten thrown out of the bar for accidentally changing all of the beer taps to fine wines???? :angel12:
OMG!!!! God is the Master???? He's a GOLFER??!?!?!?! WOW I had no Idea!!! When did he win the Masters Cup, he's probably REALLY GOOD at Golf, and instead the traditional Green jacket-I bet you they made it technocolored!!!! What's his favorite club in his bag? Is "silent" J his catty??? Has he ever been in a playoff with the big "D" and Tiger Woods or John Daly??????? If so, who won?.....
These are questions I must know the answers to.....Please enlighten me, all knowing master server!!!!!!! :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:
[/quote]
They kinda sorta did sit down and have a round, or at least made a bet of sorts in the story of Job. Job was a really good, God fearing man. So one day God basically said to the devil "look at Job. Isn't he awesome? He loves me and worships me. He's great!" The devil was like "duh he worships you. You give him everything. Take away all the stuff you've given him and I bet he won't love you anymore." God disagreed, but He allowed the devil to test Job. The only rule: he wasn't allowed to kill Job. The devil runs wild destroying Job's life. He loses everything. His children, possessions, etc. He ends up covered in boils. People are telling Job he must have done something to make God mad, so he should just curse God and die. Job won't do it though. So the devil loses, God restores Job's health and doubles his riches.
The End
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The book of Job: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPg3kjKBRc&playnext_from=TL&videos=1hstGrbKCkE
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@queenofnines
That vid was one of funniest I have ever seen! I know a few of my friends, who also happen to be Christians, will absolutely love it too and not get all bent out of shape. They fall into the (small) group I love to discuss the topic of religion with because we don't argue, they are not closed minds, and they are reasonable enough to agree that much of what is written in the Bible is impractical and impossible. I'm sure you'll get taken to task by some on here for your 'blasphemy', but I loved it! :thumbsup:
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@queenofnines
That vid was one of funniest I have ever seen! I know a few of my friends, who also happen to be Christians, will absolutely love it too and not get all bent out of shape. They fall into the (small) group I love to discuss the topic of religion with because we don't argue, they are not closed minds, and they are reasonable enough to agree that much of what is written in the Bible is impractical and impossible. I'm sure you'll get taken to task by some on here for your 'blasphemy', but I loved it! :thumbsup:
Glad you liked it! :thumbsup: Here are the top three channels I recommend if you're looking for some more afternoon atheist entertainment:
http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheThinkingAtheist
http://www.youtube.com/user/ZOMGitsCriss
That's good you have some reasonable Christian friends! :)
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The bible is not the only record of the birth life and death of Jesus of Nazareth, the Nazarene, which means thats where he came from. Those that come from the fertile crescent the wedge of land between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers still take the name of their hometown. Remember Saddam Hussein al Takriti from Takrit. That He lived and died during the reigns of Herod the Great and Pontius Pilate is unquestionable, too many secondary sources to back up His existence. Tradition and some historical sources call Him Rabbi (teacher). He taught that Rome was not the ultimate source of power, wealth and had ticked off the power that be. He shook up the ruling class of the Hebrews calling them out for being hypocrites and worse. Recall that the world was a much more violent place 2000 years ago and public execution was commonplace. Via Delarosa wasn't named for tears shed for the Christ It carried that name as the route to Golgatha- loosely translated Skull Hill or Place of Death. ON the other hand, Modern Bible thumpers are sorely misinformed thinking that the Good Book is the unabridged unquestionable word of God. The current version was translated from the Spanish and Latin that were translated from the Greek that were translated from Aramaic and although it is alleged that Jesus (pronounce it hay soos) spoke it, The words were written from the oral tradition. I believe in History recorded, not he said he said. Christian principles are for the most part good. The practice of modern christianity is at best questionable. Their holier than thou bit has been around for at least 5000 years. Professed and practiced are vastly different. You can only find God within yourself you sure can't believe anything someone tells you about Him. There IS something more to life than skin & bones but I can't tell you what it is. Any responses from our Mormon friends about the Inspired word of God delivered here in 1840 America? fomclol.
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The book of Job: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPg3kjKBRc&playnext_from=TL&videos=1hstGrbKCkE
That was hilarious. :notworthy:
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I must have the last word! Rightfully reclaiming my 666!!
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Hhahahaha nice
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I will say it again belief and non belief is lame. I prefer to stick with what I know.
Exactly. Why does one have to "believe" in god? If that isn't obvious irony, I don't know what is.
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It's hard to trust a man like Sagan who held to a criteria just like his opponents did but chose not to follow through.
I never implied anything about the person. I just quoted what he stated about how miniscule our world is. I thought it would be of interest for people to see/read.
Fair enough.
BTW, your previous historical bit about the house-arrest of Galileo due to his findings not aligning with the bibles philosophy is more disinformation than anything else, not saying that you are the perpetrator. ;)
Edit: Btw good to see your head pop up again.
You too. I see you have accumulated a substantial amount of posts since way back when.
I'm so ridiculously busy that I have to complect my 30 posts a month at a time!
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Christians didn't invent God. The credibility of your argument falls as the IPD does not share this commonality with God. Your thinking fails when you debate using a false "given". God is not akin to invisible dragons or unicorns. They have absolutely no backing.
Yes, Christians didn't invent god. Humans did. Humans have invented gods throughout all history - way before the Christians - that's pretty obvious. Humans invent god(s) for evolutionary reasons (to explain things, to overcome pointless-ness and fear of death). There you have it.
I would definitely take neuro-theology with a pinch of salt. Until it re-invents itself though, any one investing their time or dabbling into spiritual neuroscience shouldn't be taken seriously. I'd rank it among Christian Science or the Intelligent Design movement, as they are inconclusive and irrelevant, retrospectively, and has nothing to do with the Christian God.
The scientific explanations for the universe are abundant.
Prove empiricism, as the claim that we are limited to empirical methods, and your claim that the possibility for god is virtually non-existent according to empiricism may have some purpose.
For one who is tossing around debate terms against me so as to sound intelligent...
Um, your own debate-speak is working against you right here. You lead me to assume that you don't know what you're talking about and are only trying to "sound smart".
Why so quick to ad-hominem?
I try to make my vocabulary and grammar intelligible as possible. Let me know if there's anything you find confusing and I'll see if I can clarify.
That is absolutely ludicrous for you to say that everything we as humans have to show evidence for/against god isn't good enough.
Strawman. I wasn't having a discussion about whether empirical means of knowing are good. I grant that. I was having a discussion about whether empiricism is true.
If someday there is tangible, observable evidence for god, we'll have to reexamine our position.
I doubt there's "proof" for God. The whole issue of God v. Nature is based on presuppositions. If you accept only scientific explanations, you'll either come to a scientific conclusion or a question that can't be answered. Scientists don't at present have an accepted explanation of exactly how the universe came to exist as it does today, but they assume there is a scientific explanation.
I think based on the fact that God is Spirit and that scientific proof is based on empirical evidence, there could never be a strictly scientific proof for God's existence, but it's silly to limit the use of the word "proof" so much.
But for now there is not, and god should be able to stand up to hard scrutiny if he really existed, don't you think?
This is question-begging.
It appears to me that through most of your posts you have accounted for this proposition by the links and TUH that you have provided by appeal to authority (never mind that this is a logical fallacy.) So your argument that the utter lack of evidence in favor of God's existence is enough proof to support atheism is basically, if we already think that atheism is right, then we can conclude that atheism is right? This is not very convincing.
Please don't throw around terms like "appeal to authority" and "logical fallacy" unless they can actually stand up!!
It's a bad argumentative form of debating when arguing your claims are true because someone else said so in their book, video, website, etc.
My "appeals to authority" are examples of other intelligent individuals who address many things that people easily overlook, but by the powers of logic and rationale, can be known to be true and accurate.
They're bad sources for your arguments. I'm not meaning to come down on you too hard, but the arguments for this approach end up being really ridiculous, so using your examples eventually becomes a waste of time. It's good to look into and check out to a degree, but if you read the arguments carefully, people advocating these particular ideas end up making so many assumptions and wide-sweeping statements that it's not even worth reading them. I'd love to cite them to you, though, if you're unsure of some of my examples, or if you still have questions.
And as I've said earlier in this thread, lack of evidence for god was NOT good enough for me personally when I was first an atheist.
Okay, so it's a personal thing. You haven't proven anything, then.
I now know that there are hundreds of points AGAINST the Christian god specifically (me being an American and all, he's the relevant one), which solidifies my position.
Such would simply reveal atheistic pre-commitments. Therefore, instead of being a proof of atheism, this would be an argument that atheists should be atheists. That's not necessarily a bad argument; it's just not any kind of proof about which the Christian should be concerned.
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Interestingly enough, the naturalistic atheists/agnostics have claimed that laws of logic do govern reality. However, the problem is when asked how they know that these laws of logic exist or that they are absolute, we get answers like "Supposition" or "I don't know." They claim to have knowledge but won't substantiate it. Do I care whether or not the atheist knows the color of my eyes? No; it doesn't matter because the atheist has made no statement based on the color of my eyes. However, the atheists/agnostics have made statements based on logic. In accordance with that, I would ask them to account for said proposition.
Also interesting is the fact that in the debate that a gal named Lacey recommended we watch, a Christian in the audience also said this. My reaction was along the lines of, "Seriously? What an idiot!" Not saying that you are an idiot, but it is really dumb to taunt, "How do you know logic is true? Hahaha!"
Um, we know logic is true because our world would be chaos without it. We wouldn't be able to make sense of anything, get anything done, or survive very long. You use logic and rationale in your everyday life, in everyday things, and you know it. You even have thrown terms like "logical fallacy" at me, so what do you mean, you doubt logic?
I was not making a statement on the nature of logic itself as much as how logic is circularly applied to different worldviews and seeing which of them makes sense of the human experience—that is, which can account for universal, invariant laws of logic and natural laws in science.
Now, logic is about how to reason to new things from what you already know. But it doesn't make the epistemological claim that a person's belief is justified only if it was formed as the result of his use of such reasoning. That would be logic with megalomania. Your response places you in the position of "If I assume logic, then logic is provable (reflexive, if LOGIC=TRUE then TRUE=LOGIC)".
So, how is it that we know that these laws of logic exist according to your worldview? Where did we get the knowledge -- assumption? Again, if it is assumption, such precisely is your case, I simply assume "Christianity is totally right" and am fully justified according to your standard. There must be reasons to know something in a worldview other than mere assumption; that is, what method outside of logic alone can you use to prove logic in your worldview? You claim to verificationalism, so can you show the epistemic justification for immaterial, universal, immutable laws of logic empirically? I would ask simply that question -- how is it that, according to your worldview, you know that immaterial, immutable, universal laws exist, specifically laws of logic?
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It basically comes across as saying that everyone who isn't an atheist is a moron, which is not only rude and annoying, but pointless to keep repeating
No, I do not think non-atheist = 100% moron. That would be arrogant and incorrect of me.
Irrelevant. I don't care how much of a moron you think non-atheists are in the brain.
However, the part of the brain where they hold these religious beliefs IS immature and faulty.
Too bad your neurotheological claim here has no bearing on reality. What happened to basing our beliefs on evidence? Can you prove what you just said, empirically?
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My question is simple: Why? Why can emotion and other subjective influences be admitted?
Because that's like saying, "Judge, forgive me, I murdered my husband because he called me names and didn't put the toilet seat down when he knows I don't like that and wore a shirt I thought was ugly." Sorry, feelings don't mean sh*t ultimately when it comes to justifying important matters.
No, it's not like that. You are completely missing the point. The court/investigation analogy does not apply because I am not talking about taking my subjective evidences and using it to support why someone else should believe in something. IOW, I'm not using subjective evidence objectively but your response assumes that very thing.
You are erring by making the subjective evidence objective. Subjective evidence is subjective. To the Christian, the feeling he has is evidence. He can't show it or prove it to the skeptic, but to him, it's there. The same with the lack thereof to the skeptic which serves as a subjective evidence of sorts.
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My question is simple: Why? Why can emotion and other subjective influences be admitted?
May I ask why you are mainly quoting all of my posts?
No particular reason.
Your onslaught of messages comes across as uninformed ramblings...
I understand. I'm trying to wrap my own ideas around my head too.
Your observation would be accurate only if you had forgotten your original train of thought, since mine weren't meant to be coherently treated as one without inherent diversity.
I think you have to stretch a lot and do some heavy pulling to get what you're trying to say out of them.
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I agree with you. I also attended church on a regular basis, sang in the church choir and had even made up songs for the church.
Then as a got older I realized "What a minute I see people going out drinking-gambling-molesting-etc and they call themselves a Christian".
Next I started having my daughter's ask me "Mommy why did grandpa or daddy do that and they aren't being punished for what they did wrong? Mommy, where did God live if he made everything? Mommy how come our country isn't shown in this Bible?" So I stated asking the preacher or decon at the church we were attending. Needless to stay within 3 months my daughter's and I were asked to leave the church and not come back. When I asked "WHY?" I was told "You are putting doubt in the minds of the others." OK so in other words
because the preacher/decon didn't know the answer to our questions nor wanted to admit they didn't have the answer it was better to dismiss my daughter's and I.
So my theory is simple. Believe in the Spirits that surround you. Believe in yourself and question the things you do not understand. When you are not sure ask yourself the question and then wait for the answer to come to you. You will be surprised at what appears before you.
EXAMPLE: OMG where in the world did I put those keys at? Then stop and not do anything and see what happens.Hell is mentioned in my bible
That's because the translators but the word hell where Sheol(hebrew) and Hades(Greek) is supposed to be. As for hellfire the Greek word for that is Gehenna. None of these words have the Greek meaning for hell so essentially if you take out the Greek meaning for hell you get common grave of mankind.
Bait and switch exegesis. The word for Hell has been translated variously dependant on the language in which it was translated into.
Non-sequitur. I have no idea what your point was.
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I often like to read my favorite posts on here to my husband (it garners lots of lols), and today he was so inspired by one of you, he personally wrote this response:
Well, I'm glad I'm an inspiration to your husband.
This person's ostentatious efforts at maintaining a pseudo-intellectual veneer is undermined by their frequent lapses into hypocritical quackery. They start off trying (very hard) to seem fluent in philosophy -- at this point, it seems that they are a solipsistic, nihilistic, anti-empiricist Philosophy 101 student. And then, suddenly, in a flash of DID, they begin making strange claims to knowledge about Christian ethics, the Bible, and the very mind of god -- all the while providing no support whatsoever. It's as if their interpretation is the obvious one, and should require no evidence. Logical terms are thrown about spasmodically in a flailing attempt to justify what it is that they already believe. The levels of intellectual dishonesty here amazes me -- my brain could not handle such high levels of doublethink.
Misunderstood. It may look like to your husband that there is an inconsistency but I assure you this is not the case. His description has a few underlying assumptions which relate to a misrepresentation of the nature of my position that the statement is fairly far from correct
-"I don't deny "proof" in the traditional sense. I deny "proof" in the Modernist sense. Of course, so did all the greatest secular philosophers of the second half of the 20th century..." (Does he drive a Prius too?)
-"All this I am doing is asking you to give "proof" for any of your claims." (This person values proof, if I am reading this correctly.)
-"Anyone attempting to put forth any worldview has the burden of proof." (Again, proof.)
Ah! But there's a difference between empiricism and the use of empirical means of knowing. Empiricism absolutizes empirical means of knowing, and my quarrel is with that absolutization, not with the use of empirical means of knowing.
Further, I don't see why the use of logical and (the interpretation of) empirical evidence should be disallowed; they are certainly key tools in establishing propositions.
-"Christians didn't invent God. The credibility of your argument falls as the IPD does not share this commonality with God. Your thinking fails when you debate using a false "given"." (Self-contradiction within the same breath, excellent!)
If I assume that you did understand me, then your response had little to do with what I was talking about and is therefore irrellevent.
-"However, such looking is irrelevant when it comes to the existence of God, because He is not a space-time entity." (Hahahaha, no comment necessary!!!)
?
-"God has not been proven false. The IPD was false before it was invented." (Intentionally misconstruing the point of the analogy. Ugh, disgusting.)
I don't mean to misinterpret what you said. But your analogy was false to begin with, showing your point as irrelevant.
-"Christian ethics is not and cannot be based on isolated appeals to scriptural commandments because the bible is not a list of do's and dont's." (Oh! Wow, I guess I was just mislead...
You were simply misinformed by people who never took the Bible seriously enough or 'too seriously' (fundies like Barth, "Prophecy Experts," 700 club or McDowell) or bothered to learn anything about Christian theology (skeptics like Dawkins, Hitchens or Harris.)
Such is reading the Bible as if it's composed of timeless moral imperatives and abstract philosophies quantified by a series of deductive proofs, but while that's certainly a common Anglo-American way of looking at the Bible it has more to do with Kant or Thomas Jefferson than Moses or Jesus.
...by the hundreds of sects of Christianity that state the exact opposite.)
Theories litter the world of Christianity. But do they have any Scriptural backing? The internet are full of people, 'loony fundies' and skeptics alike, who misinterpret the Bible and write books and make websites (and videos) based on their misinterpretations. Does this surprise you somehow?
-"The question isn't whether we hold to the Old Testament or not, but rather, which parts are still applicable today." (And there is no criterion to determine which parts still apply and which don't...
This has been readily dealt with here (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=11958.msg173269#msg173269)in the last comment of that post.
...The Bible is such a massive, ambiguous, contradictory text that you can simply interpret it however you like.)
It really cannot be if you use the whole thing.
There is no honest search for knowledge here...
True only if we define knowledge as objectively proven things starting with an entirely neutral outlook, which only then we are doomed from the beginning. But since knowledge lies in personalism and faith such an outlook doesn't exist, so why are we defining knowledge that way?
...and no true valuing of proof or evidence.
Using empiricial evidence is not the same as empiricism as a worldview/philosophy. You are conflating to the extreme, as previously shown above, and hacking another strawman based on this equivocation.
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@queenofnines:
Valiant attempt at replying to Stealth3si. Much of what you said was along the lines of my thinking. I have been gone all day and just saw the new postings. I immediately decided it was not worth covering what you already had and truthfully, by the time I read it all, I wasn't sure what point had even been made since every other sentence contradicted the one before it. I am fairly sure your posts will be cited again (yes, that was very blatant, but perhaps a compliment) in lengthy, obtuse, and vague preponderance on his/her part in order to sound superior as far as knowledge. It all reminded me of 'politician-speak'. Use 10,000 words to say what could have been said in 100 and by the time you get done, no one will even know what you said or what your stance is.
I used to bend over backwards to explain terms and such, but it became too tedious. I've also tried to remove most technical jargon, maintaining only 'metaphysics,' 'epistemology,' and 'transcendental,' AFAIK. I think I used "vicious circularity" recently, too. Oh yes, I use the word 'worldview,' but it seems pretty self-explanatory (worldview => view of the world).
I think you're just trying to find a reason to psychologically justify dismissing me. ;)
I heartily agree that God should be able to withstand tough scrutiny from any and all who question his existence. By the way, why IS it always assumed God is male?
Skepticism detected here and without accounting for it, your requirement begs-the-question
It seems that epistemologically, skepticism yields no absolute knowledge, so nothing is acknowledged to have any objective legitimacy over other things. However, in spite of this, skeptics like yous decide to follow certain lines of belief for subjective, personal reasons. Thus, a person who believed "reality" was fake would be, objectively, just as legitimate as someone who believed it to be real. At least that's what I've gathered.
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You know the brain has a God center right, Queen? Do you know what the function is?
Yes, I was aware of that. I've read The "God" Part of the Brain, and such an area developed due to evolution. A way for us to cope with the fact that existence is essentially pointless. :thumbsup:
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It's usually called the "God Spot" or "God Module" and is in the frontal lobes of the cortex and is also, to some extent, in deeper areas of the brain. This has been studied for at least 20 years now. There was also a fairly recent experiment/study conducted by a large panel of scientists in which they stimulated the temporal lobes (God Spot) with a rotating magnetic field. The result? It was found they could artificially create the experience of religious feelings in 80% of volunteers.
Our brains have evolved to improve our chances of survival and much of that is sensitivity to believing almost anything if there is a basis for doing so. Whether you are religous or atheist, we all use the same area of our brains to process/solve 'moral' dilemnas. If you believe in God, or any other religious icon, you will base your thoughts and actions by those beliefs. If you are atheist or agnostic, you will base it on the 'moral compass' you have acquired through experiences and conditioning.
I don't think this is 'proof' of God though if that's what you are implying.
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No I was just replying to what she said "However, the part of the brain where they hold these religious beliefs IS immature and faulty."
Just because we first evolved that part of the brain millions of years ago does not mean we still "need" it today. It has always been my position that just because we're hardwired for something doesn't mean that it is good for us today. Most of us can grow up and be just fine without having to rely on fairytale superstitions...and what I was saying with the "immature and faulty" bit is that people can be reasonable and logical in every other area of their lives except when it comes to religion. That area still needs to catch up with reality.
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I don't understand why you say existence is pointless. Since there is no eternity then it is pointless to live at all? You're married, there is no point there? Something to do out of boredom?
It's pointless in a technical sense not just because each of us are a 70-year blip in the cosmological timespan, but because humankind itself (and our known universe) will be completely wiped out one day -- if not by our own hands first, then guaranteed by the death of the sun and the crunch of the universe. Everything that ever was will be gone with no trace that it ever existed.
As far as an individual life being pointless, I think you make your own point within the pointlessness (and that is why I am married). Enjoy life knowing that this is it, and that's all you can do. I don't really think there being an eternity would make things less pointless, actually. What would be the point in struggling through eternal existence? There is no grand purpose to anything, and I can't really see how there could ever be. That being said, the people who know me can see I live my life to the fullest where many others don't, and I do so because life is fleeting and beautiful.
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The creation of the Universe and Life and the very fruit we eat along with the flowers and trees is very magnificent if you ask me and was worth seeing even if you won't remember after you're dead.
I agree. It matters in the here-and-now.
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I am not a Christian, or even that religious (even though I am technically Hindu), but for me, I am interested in the effects that religion has caused on history. Religion was a big factor throughout history.
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I am not a Christian, or even that religious (even though I am technically Hindu)
When you say "technically Hindu", I hope you don't mean you are a Hindu just because your parents are or something. ???
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46 pages long? :o
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46 pages long? :o
Believe it or not, it would have been a lot longer had a certain person not deleted umpteen posts. Yes, this has definitely been a long, and sometimes heated, thread. ;)
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Unfortunately, it has pretty much quieted down as of late. :(
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Probably because people cannot chat without getting attacked.
It's called an argument. We've only attacked you because you threatened us with violence and negative superstitious forces. ::)
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Probably because people cannot chat without getting attacked.
I guess if you consider people calling you (in particular) out on BS and threats as an 'attack', then that is how you see it. No one else on here says the things you do and they also seem to be able to handle someone disagreeing with them. That is how debates and discussions work. It is not a 'debate' if everyone is of the exact same mind.
You saying this really rubs me the wrong way and I will tell you why. You constantly delete all your inflammatory posts, leave the 'innocent' and 'empty' ones up, and then cry foul on us. You come back and play the "Poor me, I am such a victim of these vicious people!" :'( card and anyone who hasn't followed it from the start has no idea what is going on. I love the adage "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" If you can't take the truth being put up for all to see, then stay out of the discussion, period.
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No I am sorry but what you guys are doing is not an argument. Personal attacks add nothing to the debate and discussion.
Trolling again as usual. You can't have an argument and you keep trying to and the dive into personal attacks. That's all there is to it. Sorry, but it's just pathetic to watch.
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This is so pathetic it's funny. ;D Move along, troll.
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http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=6922.msg114480#msg114480
It's not just me Falconer!! And btw liljp was the worst... can I say :peace: out man!! :notworthy:
You make me not want to post to this thread when you start playing the victim, because we can't debate with you without hurting your feelings-AWWWWW!!!
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She's just a crazy thread derailer. Don't acknowledge her because it encourages the derailment. I've finally wised up and pushed the ignore button on her. It helps immensily to keep on topic.
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She's just a crazy thread derailer. Don't acknowledge her because it encourages the derailment. I've finally wised up and pushed the ignore button on her. It helps immensily to keep on topic.
Ohh, you missed a real gem last night when she posted 3 HUGE pictures of demons/hell in the topic I started and basically said that she was happy some people on this forum were going there. I reported it.
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Nice work! ;D
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I would only like to say that i am merely 15 years old, and i understand all of this discussion. So do not use my age against me. All would like to do is express that I am an atheist....incase anyone doesnt know what atheism is...it can be interpreted in different ways..and I believe it to be a belief that there is some kind of greater being, but you dont know what. To an atheist like myself, it is pointless to :notworthy: (worship) something that you dont know what is.[I know this doesnt exactly follow the discussion...i just found it neccessary to say. :thumbsup:
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All would like to do is express that I am an atheist....incase anyone doesnt know what atheism is...it can be interpreted in different ways..and I believe it to be a belief that there is some kind of greater being, but you dont know what.
Not trying to shoot you down here, but an atheist does NOT believe in any higher beings! If you seriously contend there is an impersonal higher god, you are a deist. If you're not sure if there's a god or not, you are agnostic.
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I believe it to be a belief that there is some kind of greater being, but you dont know what
If you want the correct term, you are an agnostic-theist.
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Yes, religion is a very touchy subject. What I can't explain are miracles and when you become aware of one it is really hard not to derive that there is a greater oversight than humans supply for themselves. But, no matter if you believe in GOD or not, if you will live in trust of yourself and others we will all be alright.
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What I can't explain are miracles and when you become aware of one it is really hard not to derive that there is a greater oversight than humans supply for themselves. But, no matter if you believe in GOD or not, if you will live in trust of yourself and others we will all be alright.
Can you give examples of some of these "miracles"? In the case of an illness such as cancer, yes, sometimes it does get better on its own because our bodies can be pretty kick-*bleep* when it comes to surviving physical stress. But...how can you call it a loving event "from god" when one person survives cancer, but millions of others die? Why help so few people?
And billions of people don't think you'll be alright if you choose the wrong god or live the wrong life in his eyes. I'm just sayin'.
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You certainly have the right to believe or not believe anything at all and that is not my problem...that is YOUR problem. So what if you don't want to believe? So what? Who cares? It is your life. believe whatever you want to believe and not believe whatever you do not want to believe....but you are wrong to try to invalidate what someone else wants to believe.
From the time that man has walked the earth, he has needed something to believe in and if he created a God to believe in so that he could find some reason to continue his earthly existence against all the forces of nature, then so be it..why should he not have a God to believe in? Just go on about your purposeless, meaningless existence and feel pity on us who have chosen to believe in something other than our pittyful little meaningless selves. Okay? Have a wonderful day without God!
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why should he not have a God to believe in? Just go on about your purposeless, meaningless existence and feel pity on us who have chosen to believe in something other than our pittyful little meaningless selves. Okay? Have a wonderful day without God!
Heh!
Yeah, I don't really have a problem with those who say they believe in god but don't allow it to affect their everyday life too much. *But* our beliefs inform our actions, and it can be hard to not have something as defining as a belief in god alter your lifestyle and behaviors in some way. The people who fly into buildings, blow up abortion clinics, beat up gays, stop medical research, harass people by "witnessing" to them, etc. etc. do so because they think their religion grants them permission to do so. And even if you're one of the more civil believers, you're still supporting the group at large by being part of the same belief system.
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why should he not have a God to believe in? Just go on about your purposeless, meaningless existence and feel pity on us who have chosen to believe in something other than our pittyful little meaningless selves. Okay? Have a wonderful day without God!
oKAY...IF it makes you feel better, there is no God! Now, enjoy!
Heh!
Yeah, I don't really have a problem with those who say they believe in god but don't allow it to affect their everyday life too much. *But* our beliefs inform our actions, and it can be hard to not have something as defining as a belief in god alter your lifestyle and behaviors in some way. The people who fly into buildings, blow up abortion clinics, beat up gays, stop medical research, harass people by "witnessing" to them, etc. etc. do so because they think their religion grants them permission to do so. And even if you're one of the more civil believers, you're still supporting the group at large by being part of the same belief system.
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"people who fly into buildings, blow up abortion clinics, beat up gays".......ok..now I'm ready to puke.
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"people who fly into buildings, blow up abortion clinics, beat up gays".......ok..now I'm ready to puke.
Are you denying that most (not all) of these types of events have occured at the hands of/are driven by religious factions? If you are, I find that to be an impossible argument when they are so quick to advertise who they are, why it goes against their beliefs, and what part of their religion has told them these are things that need to be done.
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"people who fly into buildings, blow up abortion clinics, beat up gays".......ok..now I'm ready to puke.
Are you denying that most (not all) of these types of events have occured at the hands of/are driven by religious factions? If you are, I find that to be an impossible argument when they are so quick to advertise who they are, why it goes against their beliefs, and what part of their religion has told them these are things that need to be done.
That's arguable. Though a lot of these things are done by these people who claim that their God or religion told them to do it there are a number of these events that had nothing to do with religion. Abortion clinics have been blown up worldwide by people who just want to take lives, it's an easy target with a lot of victims. Same goes for hospitals that get blown up. Not all people who "beat up gays" are religious. A group of "neo-nazis" (as they are calling themselves) who are highly pronounced atheists at my school went out and attacked all of the homosexuals that they could find. And as for the people who fly into buildings... Yeah that's mostly religious as far as I've seen. Except for that guy who flew into that IRS building over taxes and stuff.
So yes a lot of people who do these things do it because of their religion, but I think it's safe to say that not all of them are.
And in response to the original topic: Good for you. I don't see why it's such a big deal to religious believers (or at least believers in major religions) when someone is atheist. And vice-versa. Why shouldn't people just be able to believe whatever they want without getting crap from people who believe something different? I don't know how others feel but that's what I think, believe what makes sense to you.
PS: I'm personally a form of neo-pagan. So don't try to peg me on either side of the whole atheist v. major religion believers argument because my beliefs put me in-between. BTW on a completely unrelated note I would like to personally thank everyone who posts on discussions such as these and bring up interesting and thought-provoking topics and pieces of information (ie: queenofnines,Falconer02, etc.) because (with the exclusion of people who just have to be jerks and trolls and whatnot) I like to have and read/listen to intelligent discussions. Hard for me to find this normally so it thrills me they exist on here.
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So yes a lot of people who do these things do it because of their religion, but I think it's safe to say that not all of them are.
Well yes, she did say that. I think the rest of the cases can be attributed to people who were neglected in some way as children, have poor living conditions, and/or bad education. Or they're just nuts in general.
I don't see why it's such a big deal to religious believers (or at least believers in major religions) when someone is atheist.
Bcos' athyists R gona go 2 that ther hell place. They dissrespect R Lawd!
And vice-versa.
Because people who believe things that aren't true are in my government. To name one of *many* reasons.
I would like to personally thank everyone who posts on discussions such as these and bring up interesting and thought-provoking topics and pieces of information (ie: queenofnines,Falconer02, etc.) because (with the exclusion of people who just have to be jerks and trolls and whatnot) I like to have and read/listen to intelligent discussions. Hard for me to find this normally so it thrills me they exist on here.
Aw, thanks! Glad you are listening and enjoying. I was starting to fear that this place is only filled with people wanting to make a few quick bucks and the deepest they go is answering questions like, "Do you roll your toilet paper over OR under?" :D
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
Do you believe there is a higher power or divine creator who created all of us?
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First I want to thank you for this post...I think everyone should believe in what they want and not force feed anyone on anything..I appreciate this alot I am tired of being told because I do not attend church or force my kids I will go to hell..Please I do not come to your homes and force my religious or non religious beliefs on you so don't force them on me.. :peace: :heart:
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I am tired of being told because I do not attend church or force my kids I will go to hell..
Fortunately, there is no hell. Don't listen to anyone who tries to scare you with empty threats. They want to control you and they want your money.
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I agree queen scare tatics do not work its the principal of hearing grown adults say this trash and honest believe it worries me when in all reality I could care less.My kids on the other hand thats when I become livid
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I did not say my kids were going to hell I said people so called church people so umm please do not turn it around and say I do not know god you have no clue what I believe or know..Please read what I said before responding as for a gun to my head did I say that but they do come to my house trying to give me pamphlets and there are other people in my life who chose to make it there goal to push the issue and sorry I will not walk away from them I tell them where I stand and if they chose to keep on with the issue then I take the action I feel is necessary..
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I did not say my kids were going to hell I said people so called church people so umm please do not turn it around and say I do not know god you have no clue what I believe or know..Please read what I said before responding as for a gun to my head did I say that but they do come to my house trying to give me pamphlets and there are other people in my life who chose to make it there goal to push the issue and sorry I will not walk away from them I tell them where I stand and if they chose to keep on with the issue then I take the action I feel is necessary..
I can assume this is a response to something that marieelissa attacked you for and then conveniently deleted...pay no attention to her; she loves to cause trouble.
:)
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I did not say my kids were going to hell I said people so called church people so umm please do not turn it around and say I do not know god you have no clue what I believe or know..Please read what I said before responding as for a gun to my head did I say that but they do come to my house trying to give me pamphlets and there are other people in my life who chose to make it there goal to push the issue and sorry I will not walk away from them I tell them where I stand and if they chose to keep on with the issue then I take the action I feel is necessary..
I can assume this is a response to something that marieelissa attacked you for and then conveniently deleted...pay no attention to her; she loves to cause trouble.
:)
Yes it was and I have noticed that...She seems to love to push peoples buttons :)
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I did not say my kids were going to hell I said people so called church people so umm please do not turn it around and say I do not know god you have no clue what I believe or know..Please read what I said before responding as for a gun to my head did I say that but they do come to my house trying to give me pamphlets and there are other people in my life who chose to make it there goal to push the issue and sorry I will not walk away from them I tell them where I stand and if they chose to keep on with the issue then I take the action I feel is necessary..
I can assume this is a response to something that marieelissa attacked you for and then conveniently deleted...pay no attention to her; she loves to cause trouble.
My dear..no one is getting livid and you were saying I did not know about god cause you assumed I believed my kids were going to hell and you said people do not have a gun to my head to listen to there opinions about god..I was responding back then post was gone hmm why if it was not wrong why delete it I will not argue with you..And every post I have seen from you seems to try to provoke a debate or is rude..End of story..You can say what you feel without being rude..Smile and be happy life is better that way
:)
Yes it was and I have noticed that...She seems to love to push peoples buttons :)
I don't think you understand that all I do is defend myself...ecspecially when people want to talk about me, like I am not here. I don't escalate it but it usually does.
If anything, I was trying to help you understand that children don't go to Hell, ever, so don't get livid.
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marieelissa
Blah, Blah, Blah....I believe in God.
I see that 12 minutes ago, in the post below from another thread, you weren't quite sure. That is hilarious coming from you especially with all the Bible passages and adamant defense of your beliefs the last few months. You said either God is or he isn't, so which one is it? You aren't a true believer if you can write what you did below. You are just a joke.
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Re: Do You Belive In God
« Reply #16 on: Today at 08:59:22 am » Message ID: 200374
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Some days I do and Some days I don't.
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Is this suppost to be an insult? I mean coming from someone that doesn't believe in God at ALL.
And is THAT supposed to be an insult? lol
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Is this suppost to be an insult? I mean coming from someone that doesn't believe in God at ALL.
And is THAT supposed to be an insult? lol
;D ;D ;D Ooooh, I hope not because that would devastate me, queen!
marieelissa,
Since you obviously are devoid of any powers of reasoning, I will tell you what it is. It is pointing out the fact that you are a hypocrite, a liar, and you change your opinion faster than the Earth changes positions. I don't know if you post what you do to get things going or if you are honestly so whacked you cannot remember what you said from one minute to the next. If you kept your own posts up, as opposed to deleting them, you would have a trail to follow that would allow you to see where your lies have been written and maybe you wouldn't get caught in all of them.
I just looked in "What would you do if your Husband/Boyfriend donated Sperm?' and I see you deleted your post from earlier this morning about "not being with a guy who has kids, etc.". Now, that one is a prime example of your lying after your Wayne lovechain (which is now gone again, so do not forget THIS time when you put it back up that after you break up with someone, as you said you did because he cheated on you with his babies' mother, you need to start the chain over :P) and his kids. Not to mention the fact you did claim kids in The Mothers Day promo, as queenofnines pointed out awhile back.
You have said many times that your God knows what "is in your heart" and I would certainly feel guilty IF I lied almost every time I opened my mouth/typed something up because God knows that, right?! God does not abide dishonesty and envy is one of the 7 Deadly Sins. Just taking those two things into account, I would say you need a thorough spiritual housecleaning. In case you're wondering why I threw 'envy' into that, it is because your envy and jealousy of some of us one here is so very apparent. It is why you try to 'fight back' with your simple-minded replies, but you just don't have what it takes. My advice - give it up. You will never reach the level of most of the people who post in these Forums.
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I AGREE 100% Jordandog well said
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I AGREE 100% Jordandog well said
Thank you, ButterflyWings. :)
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
Do you believe there is a higher power or divine creator who created all of us?
Well this is certainly interesting today usually not alot of content is put out here but this is good I love intelligent conversation This is a FREE world last time I checked and we get to believe what we want to: My Mother would say let's agree to disagree so that usually makes things easier I agree with you we need more love truth and justice in the world rather than all the negativity where is that going to get anyone? Great comment
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This is a FREE world last time I checked and we get to believe what we want to: My Mother would say let's agree to disagree so that usually makes things easier I agree with you we need more love truth and justice in the world rather than all the negativity where is that going to get anyone?
Well the problem with this statement is that religion isn't harmless! It can be very, very harmful in fact. The more people we can get to live in reality, the better.
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I don't know if you post what you do to get things going or if you are honestly so whacked you cannot remember what you said from one minute to the next. If you kept your own posts up, as opposed to deleting them, you would have a trail to follow that would allow you to see where your lies have been written and maybe you wouldn't get caught in all of them.
Judging from the constant criteria, I'm just now starting to think that this forum troll may not even be who they say they are. In other forums some trolls act like someone else just to do nothing but derail a thread and *bleep* people off; saying things just to provoke needless arguments and insults thrown every which way. It might be some 14 year old kids alternate-identity as some psychotic woman and laughing at all of us for arguing with them. Whether this is true or not, we've all fallen for arguing with a troll.
I can't remember if I posted this, but check this out- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg Though we've already tried to play nice many times, the best method with this one is to just ignore the user.
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It might be some 14 year old kids alternate-identity as some psychotic woman and laughing at all of us for arguing with them.
Yep, that is probably the case, which would explain why "she" is available to post 24/7. "She" has posted 3 different pics of what "she" looks like and there is not much info on her outside this forum. Then again, she really could be some crazy 29-year-old chick who doesn't have to work because either a) she really does have a mental illness which prevents her from working b) she leaches off of the government and/or c) her mom/"Wayne"/someone else pays for her. That's the problem with the Internet, though, we may never know... One thing we can know for certain is that anyone who posts in such a manner - whether they are doing it as a joke or because they are legitimately wacko - has problems and is not someone I would want to associate with in real life.
Funny link! Seems very familiar... "Steve Jobs owns a PC!" ;)
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Falconer, thanks for the vid link, very funny! ;) I know you keep telling us not to feed and just ignore, but I have a hard time NOT saying what I do. I am fairly sure queenofnines has mentioned this too - all the new people that come on here and see her crap thinking it is well intentioned and/or she gets 'bullied' for no reason by some of us. Some days I am very good at not taking the bait (mainly because I am not home, so I don't see it ;D) and other days I feel as if I absolutely have to answer to somehow 'defend' posters here that I feel are genuinely good people and I know they get their feelings stomped on by her snarky rudeness. That stuff just does not sit well with me at all. :(
I am guessing the link >http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=15764.75< she has put in a bunch of threads to the $2 she won (woo-friggin-hoo!!!) is a dig at queenofnines, eh? Only thing I can think of since it has absolutely nothing to do with the topics, but everything to do with prayers being answered. :P
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"am guessing the link >http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=15764.75< she has put in a bunch of threads to the $2 she won (woo-friggin-hoo!!!) is a dig at queenofnines, eh? Only thing I can think of since it has absolutely nothing to do with the topics, but everything to do with prayers being answered."
She deleted her post on fb she was number one post for the promo then deleted and moved herself down :dontknow: Any guesses as to why she would have done this?
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She deleted her post on fb she was number one post for the promo then deleted and moved herself down Any guesses as to why she would have done this?
I have no idea about that one, muush, since I knew nothing about the promo until it was done with and saw posts about it. Maybe her deleting really worked against her that time because she didn't think about it!
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I am guessing the link >http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=15764.75< she has put in a bunch of threads to the $2 she won (woo-friggin-hoo!!!) is a dig at queenofnines, eh?
Ha! It didn't even cross my mind that could be the case...all I thought was, "Dumb."
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She deleted her post on fb she was number one post for the promo then deleted and moved herself down Any guesses as to why she would have done this?
I have no idea about that one, muush, since I knew nothing about the promo until it was done with and saw posts about it. Maybe her deleting really worked against her that time because she didn't think about it!
I dont think the promo is done yet pretty sure its still going till they get 50 posts
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That's why I wish people would hurry up and sign up so I can get my 2$. I figured if I tossed the link around people would *bleep* up the 2$.
Oh hey, I just looked up what she's talking about guys. No thanks, I do not want Ms. Crazy knowing my full name - not worth $2. The whole FB + Fusion Cash thing can be dangerous in the wrong hands!!
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OH DEAR GOD SHE IS ON FACEBOOK GOD HELP US ALL!! Well she better stay her nutty :bootyshake:away from friend requesting me cause I will add her just to slam her LMAO
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Hello Kimberley,
I just wanted to comment on your voicing yourself here, strong words and sounds like pain in some of them due to what has happened to you in your life, maybe even what you have seen or not seen. I was also raised in the Catholic faith, but changed to Methodist eventually then now to christian I would call it. I changed because of the Catholic religion with our priest at the time not doing the right thing and I thought this is wrong to tell my sins to someone who was at fault himself, so I changed. I was brought up knowing about God and had and still have a strong faith, have had alot of things happen to me in my life, to show me there is another side that we cannot see with our eyes. i have been protected many times. So all I can say to you is you are strong voiced, and of strong conviction in your beliefs and thoughts, but I am asking you to not just disregard that there are things we cannot see that are very much there in our lives. Take care and search for the truth.
Mary :)
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This is a FREE world last time I checked and we get to believe what we want to: My Mother would say let's agree to disagree so that usually makes things easier I agree with you we need more love truth and justice in the world rather than all the negativity where is that going to get anyone?
Well the problem with this statement is that religion isn't harmless! It can be very, very harmful in fact. The more people we can get to live in reality, the better.
Anything can be harmful in the hands of the wrong people, which is where everything inevitably ends up.
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Not believing in God is also very, Very harmful.
Explain yourself because in the vast majority of cases, this is false.
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Harmful for people that couldn't cope without him.
In all fairness, there are people that can't cope without alcohol or drugs. That doesn't make them beneficial in any way.
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When the wrong people get their hands on God...well there ya go.
Haha, so why are you saying god is beneficial?!
As for people killing themselves, if they really could not handle the truth of there not being a god, they are probably the type of person who would kill themselves ANYWAY even if they did believe in god if life got bad enough for them.
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I am not responsible for anyone else or what they believe since it isn't my problem.
You're responsible if you raise children with such beliefs and/or actively witness to people. You're responsible if you support legislature that does not honor the separation of church and state. You're responsible if you stand by and do nothing whilst atrocities are being committed in the name of your religion (locally or nationally).
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We are talking about God though not Drugs and Alcohol. God is very beneficial!
I mean people create Guns and when the wrong people get their hands on them...well that results in murder.
People create knives and well...you get the idea.
When the wrong people get their hands on God...well there ya go.
I meant that example makes it sound more like a crutch to get people by than a true benefit. There have been studies that show that people who believe in God live longer. :dontknow:
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I am not responsible for anyone else or what they believe since it isn't my problem.
You're responsible if you raise children with such beliefs and/or actively witness to people. You're responsible if you support legislature that does not honor the separation of church and state. You're responsible if you stand by and do nothing whilst atrocities are being committed in the name of your religion (locally or nationally).
People use God/religion as an excuse to do terrible things to each other. If no one believed in God and religion didn't exist, they would find another excuse to hurt others. People always need to blame someone for their problems. They always need a bad guy. You can't just blame God and religion for all of mankind's evil acts.
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You know the brain has a God center right, Queen? Do you know what the function is?
Yes, I was aware of that. I've read The "God" Part of the Brain, and such an area developed due to evolution. A way for us to cope with the fact that existence is essentially pointless. :thumbsup:
Unfortunately, Alper's psuedo-scientific research, like the ID, is generally founded on Descarte's philosophy.
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Not believing in God is also very, Very harmful. It all boils down to there are good people and there are bad people, which are you?
This is legalism.
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This is legalism.
Are you "enlightened" enough to know that pretty much every reply you make on this forum comes across as arrogant academia? Having every line of yours read like yuppy B.S. is quite annoying. You're not some world-renowned philosopher, so stop making yourself look bad by spewing esoteric concepts that have no real substance behind them.
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You don't Believe, so what do you know? Belief is not knowledge. Knowledge is not belief...[/color]
Because god is conveniently invisible, he can never be 100% dis-proved. Therefore if you say you KNOW there's not a god - no matter how much good evidence you have to back up that claim - people can just bring up the invisible thing.
Again I say how convenient that he's invisible! If he were really real wouldn't it be FACT, not something you have to BELIEVE in?
...Of course not. Then god couldn't have his wacko invisible fun "testing" us.
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This is legalism.
Are you "enlightened" enough to know that pretty much every reply you make on this forum comes across as arrogant academia? Having every line of yours read like yuppy B.S. is quite annoying. You're not some world-renowned philosopher, so stop making yourself look bad by spewing esoteric concepts that have no real substance behind them.
I'm "enlightened" enough to know it's all too common on internet forums when someone realizes another person pointed out something they have no answer for, they eventually resort to upsetting remarks on message boards that can be considered as an admission of concession.
Apparently, it seems I've pushed your button, which I didn't mean to. Showing no interest in engaging in any actual discussion on the subject(s) leads me to naturally assume you've no arguments for issues I've raised.
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
if you would actually read your bible then you would know the facts ! i can tell you its a history book and that jesus christ took our punishment for our sins its just a shame that it took me 31 yrs to open my eyes and ears to find him and i thank him every day for what he did for me and for you !
Do you believe there is a higher power or divine creator who created all of us?
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Everyone is equal its lables that bring us all on a downfall.
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Figured all these people are posting about how they think god exists and blah, blah, blah.......so I thought I'd create my own topic.
I do not believe nor will I ever. You can preach and testimony all you want, I grew up a Catholic, and was one until about two years ago. I have researched, studied, and believed until that point. I know alllll about being a christian, faith, god, etc.
Personally, I don't believe anyone should rub it into anyone's face that they are goin to hell for not believing...
That they are wrong for not believing...
That the person preaching is better than the non-believers or feels sorry for the non-believers because they don't believe...
Everyone is equal. We need to respect ourselves, respect our fellow man, and respect our earth before we give respect to some statue who we 'think' died on a piece of wood. Doesn't the bible tell you not to worship man-made idols? Well, were you there at the time of christ? Isn't the bible a tool of a man-made idol IE the cross? Isn't the figure of your christ on a cross in churches an idol? Furthermore, how do christians believe so differently amongst themselves...IE..Baptists, Catholics, Etc....... They all condemn each other because they all interpret the bible differently. It's all very silly to me. I believe in equality, I belive in peace and justice and love. I don't believe there is some evil(my definition) person waiting for me at some pearly gates telling me that I lived badly so he can send me to hell. Too many evil doers, injustices, and just plain nastyness in this would to suggest to me that someone is watching over us.
This just goes to show how all of us need to relax and hear everyone else's voice once in awhile!
When I first saw this topic, I was thinking I'm not even going to read it, because it'll probably just make me mad. Oddly enough, I feel just the opposite! I also grew up Catholic and even attended a Catholic school for awhile. I now consider myself a Christian. I do believe in God, but I don't believe everything that comes along with any set religion. (Attack away if you feel you must, my serenity is not in danger.) Moving on... I enjoyed the overall idea that Kymberli expressed: we are all equal. If we are both shot for what our beliefs are, I can (almost) guarantee that we will both bleed blood. (I say "almost" because of the technology they're coming out with these days. Plus, you could be an alien. Crap, I could be an alien!) Good post and thank you for being brave enough to post it! :thumbsup:
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I believe in myself and hold no one higher!
I need no one/no thing to believe in to make me a better person!
The only ONE that can make an impact in my life is ME!
As I have stated I don't look down on those that belief in whatever. We are all free to do whatever we want.
One thing I do hate is those that push their religion or beliefs onto you or think they are better then you.
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When I first saw this topic, I was thinking I'm not even going to read it, because it'll probably just make me mad. Oddly enough, I feel just the opposite! I also grew up Catholic and even attended a Catholic school for awhile. I now consider myself a Christian. I do believe in God, but I don't believe everything that comes along with any set religion. (Attack away if you feel you must, my serenity is not in danger.) Moving on... I enjoyed the overall idea that Kymberli expressed: we are all equal. If we are both shot for what our beliefs are, I can (almost) guarantee that we will both bleed blood. (I say "almost" because of the technology they're coming out with these days. Plus, you could be an alien. Crap, I could be an alien!) Good post and thank you for being brave enough to post it! thumbsup
You have such a sweet spirit missi! :heart:
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One thing I do hate is those that push their religion or beliefs onto you or think they are better then you.
YES, and for everyone reading this, there is a difference between stating your beliefs in a discussion and telling everyone they're going to hell for not believing what you believe.
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When I first saw this topic, I was thinking I'm not even going to read it, because it'll probably just make me mad. Oddly enough, I feel just the opposite! I also grew up Catholic and even attended a Catholic school for awhile. I now consider myself a Christian. I do believe in God, but I don't believe everything that comes along with any set religion. (Attack away if you feel you must, my serenity is not in danger.) Moving on... I enjoyed the overall idea that Kymberli expressed: we are all equal. If we are both shot for what our beliefs are, I can (almost) guarantee that we will both bleed blood. (I say "almost" because of the technology they're coming out with these days. Plus, you could be an alien. Crap, I could be an alien!) Good post and thank you for being brave enough to post it! thumbsup
You have such a sweet spirit missi! :heart:
Even after I said that you could be an alien?! lol Thank you for the compliment! :angel11:
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That is always my first impression when people speak of God in that manner, they were hurt in life.
I think people who say non-fairytale subscribers are "sad" or the like are just jealous of the freedom, intelligence, and boldness we have. ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXMbiHhxwoE
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how can u not believe in God do u think that this world just happen by chance their had to be some one to see that ever thing was juat wright so we could live hear on it if it was any coluser or ferther a way from tha sun u would not be hear!
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We all have a choice in what we believe or who we serve. There is a God. Heaven and Hell is real as well as Angles and Demons. There is only one God and one way. I am not knocking anyones religion. We have a choice who we serve. We just need to make sure we make the right selection. I know who wakes me up in the morning, who protects me, when i was sick who was there, when i went to court who was there. You get no other response if you call on someone else but just call on the name of Jesus. See for your self. It is a personal experience.
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how can u not believe in God do u think that this world just happen by chance their had to be some one to see that ever thing was juat wright so we could live hear on it if it was any coluser or ferther a way from tha sun u would not be hear!
Always trust people with grammatical capabilities such as this! They obviously know what they're talking about. ::)
/sarcasm
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We all have a choice in what we believe or who we serve. There is a God. Heaven and Hell is real as well as Angles and Demons. There is only one God and one way. I am not knocking anyones religion. We have a choice who we serve. We just need to make sure we make the right selection. I know who wakes me up in the morning, who protects me, when i was sick who was there, when i went to court who was there. You get no other response if you call on someone else but just call on the name of Jesus. See for your self. It is a personal experience.
Awesome! I've made my choice and it is very clear that God is real. Ever see a hummingbird? Now that is creative. And the same God that made a variety of hummingbirds, made you. Deep down you know that is true. So believe that Jesus is real and accept the free gift He is offering. Eternal life.
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14+ posts in a row from Marie just now. Psychotic! I bet they'll be deleted before you read this though.
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:angel12:Ill say sorry ahead of time incase i may offend someone But i honestly i cant give u a straight answer on the hole "God" debate,that has to be as old as the chicken and the egg.lol.
But to give u my opinion i would have to say that i do think that there is something "out there" that is higher in the plain of existence than we are.Although i dont think it is at all what the preachers and leaders of faith would know about.I would hope that if there is something cosmic in existence i would "pray to god"lol,it doesnt want to be worshiped.On top of that i dont put any belief into the bible at all,sorry followers. :bs:
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It's good to have knowledge about God. That knowledge may one day lead an unbeliever to saving faith so that they will not be lost forever in hell.
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It's good to have knowledge about God.
Ah. Which one? Just the current popular one?
That knowledge may one day lead an unbeliever to saving faith so that they will not be lost forever in hell.
*yawn* yeah. Whatev.