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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: queenofnines on June 04, 2010, 01:53:19 pm

Title: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 04, 2010, 01:53:19 pm
I want this post to have believers of God to stop and think for a few minutes about something they've probably never considered before.  Hypothetically, if it could be proven to you that god doesn't exist and you now had to accept this, that there is nothing after you die, and if most of your church withdrew their positions of belief in light of scientific evidence:

1) How would you feel? (depressed, neutral, relieved, etc.)
2) How do you think it might change your life?

Basically, no matter the amount of faith you have right now, I want to get you thinking about the alternative if god didn't exist and have some honest answers because it is something I am curious about and think is healthy for people to ponder about.  Would it really be that bad for you if you learned there was no god (that they were all invented by man)?  Again, hypothetically.  ;)

Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on June 04, 2010, 04:49:39 pm
Excellent topic queenofnines, good on ya mate!  :thumbsup: This is a thread I will be watching. You already know my stance on the subject, so I am not one to give you an answer, but I think this could be very enlightening. The one obstacle is getting people to actually read and 'follow directions' if you get my drift. I know there are certainly some members here who are capable of doing that. The first response, unfortunately, was not in the scope of what you asked to be done. I hope to see some that are so I can see if they are along the lines of what I have been told when I've posed similar 'what ifs' to my friends.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 04, 2010, 07:36:06 pm
The one obstacle is getting people to actually read and 'follow directions' if you get my drift. I know there are certainly some members here who are capable of doing that. The first response, unfortunately, was not in the scope of what you asked to be done.

Yup!  The main question is basically the same one they pose to atheists: What if you're wrong?  I'd like people to really ponder the possibility that there is nothing after they die...does that scare them?

Marieelissa did not fully answer the question because she was quick to be like, "There is no point going there in my thinking because there IS a god!"  Sorry, but that was not following the guidelines for the exercise.  You have to truly pause for a moment and pretend your beliefs are wrong and what does that mean for you.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 04, 2010, 08:31:56 pm
 :cat: It would change my life for the worst.  To know that there would not be eternity with passed loved ones and God, would be a black cloud of despair if I dwelled on it. :'(  Otherwise, once I died, I wouldn't know then because I would be dead and gone.  Thank goodness, I can hold on to my true belief  :angel12: or I would be a worrywart until the end.  Thanks for making us think!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 05, 2010, 05:27:27 am
Good responses.  :)

I just try to live my life and enjoy the time I have and love every moment and very thankful for my parents who gave me life and brought me here to see things I wouldn't have otherwise seen.

Yep, but have you considered just how lucky you are that you are alive at all?  You beat out 300 million of your brothers and sisters that fateful day you were conceived.  ;)  Had it been a millisecond later or earlier that your parents came together, you would not be here.  More food for thought.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 05, 2010, 06:24:53 am
 :cat: You do some deep thinking about some intense topics.  I don't think a lot of people are able to do that.  At least you can face some hard questions head-on where for some people that's too much to handle.   ;)
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: klkwid on June 05, 2010, 07:10:36 am
I dont' think it would change the way I act towards other people or towards life.  I'm a live and let live type of person-do unto others...., you know?  I don't think I'd be too bummed or anything, though, because you can't change the way things like that are-make the most of life on Earth.  What really bothers me about some people who believe is that they cling to that as an excuse for anything-they do horrible things to each other, say nasty stuff, then say "well it's OK when I do it because I believe in God and I'm forgiven!!"  I believe in God, but I think he helps those who help themselves.  Actions speak louder than words.  A lot of athiests look at believers who act like that and are completely turned off to the idea-the believers actually drive the athiests further away rather than draw them closer, then the believers look at those people and shun them off as less than "elite" like the other believers and say they don't want anything to do with them because those people are going to hell. 
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 05, 2010, 07:51:37 am
A lot of athiests look at believers who act like that and are completely turned off to the idea-the believers actually drive the athiests further away rather than draw them closer, then the believers look at those people and shun them off as less than "elite" like the other believers and say they don't want anything to do with them because those people are going to hell. 

Yes believers can turn atheists off, *but* that is usually not the reason why atheists are atheists.  It is something else I wanted to discuss -- the common mis-conceptions amongst believers as to why there are atheists.  I think believers think atheists:

a) Are just going through a "phase" and will "see the light" later in life before they perish in hell (if the mom is a believer and the child is an atheist, for example)
b) Simply don't understand the godly-spiritual stuff
c) Are mad at god and want to be able to sin freely

All of these are WRONG!

The primary reason for any intelligent atheist not believing god is that there is evidence is against him!  Evidence that cannot be clearly seen when one is being suffocated by the security blanket of religion.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 05, 2010, 11:39:31 am
Yeah, I have thought about how easy it would of been for me not to have been born...it wouldn't have mattered though if I wasn't...It happend the way it did so I could live.

That's kind of the reason I believe in Something greater/larger more intelligent, in control of everything (not necessarily God)

Nope, one of those spermy dudes had to get picked, one of them had to win, and just because it was you relates to the anthropic principle.  All of your brothers and sisters on that day don't exist like you do to ponder the fact that they were the lucky one that got picked.

If you believe you are special, god must have had to make sure the sperm that was you made it to the egg safely and forsook all of the MILLIONS of extra sperms.  Which is ridiculous, btw.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 05, 2010, 11:46:33 am
I think most people are atheists because they don't know if God is there and cannot tell so therefore they just don't believe and move on.

Eh, that is a very small group and should definitely not be stereotyped onto the whole of atheists, because in most cases it is incorrect.  Most atheists were once believers who truly followed said god.  What you don't understand because you are in it is that the belief mindset is one that is on lockdown by delusions and wishful thinking.  Ex-believers are ones who refused to keep quiet when an important question or situation came up; they started to realize their critical thinking skills had been supressed, and in light of heaps of information and common-sense proofs, saw that they were wrong in believing in any god that has a holy book attached to it.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on June 05, 2010, 05:29:37 pm
I don't understand why people who don't believe in God think they are intelligent! It seems like they are the ones that want to talk about God the most.

You don't believe in God, Good for you but really who cares? There is a God or there isn't...so what.

Einstein said it is more important to have an imagination than intelligence.

Just because you don't believe in God does not make you intelligent, it is very easy not to believe in God (cause like wtf is he?) I just want you to know that the belief in God is a freedom in America and atheists should respect that! If someone hurts you because of religion than call the cops.

If anything the belief in God is a delusion ( a false belief)

You know you are intelligent when you come up with something for yourself and quit looking at everyone else.

Exactly who said and where was it said that all atheists think they are intelligent? Exactly who said and where was it said you or anyone else does not have the freedom to believe in God? Exactly who said and where was it said atheists do not respect another's belief in God?

Blanket statements that cannot be backed up and generalizations that don't have a thing to do with what queenofnines asked. Do you purposely take topics off the rails just to get things stirred up?
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 05, 2010, 06:01:12 pm
I don't understand why people who don't believe in God think they are intelligent! It seems like they are the ones that want to talk about God the most.

Hmm, is this a personal attack against me?  A lot of people - atheists and theists alike - think that they are intelligent.  Of course not all who think they are actually are.  ;)  I never said all atheists are intelligent *but* - as a general rule - someone who has been able to break away from the shackles of religion is a lot more likely to be intelligent than someone who hasn't.

And as for talking about god all of the time...you just don't understand.  The subject is something that many atheists are concerned about because religion is a delusional fairytale that the majority of people think is real and will kill and harm in the name of.

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Einstein said it is more important to have an imagination than intelligence.

And imagination is where religion comes from.

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it is very easy not to believe in God (cause like wtf is he?)

If it was that easy to not believe in god, than why do so many of you cling to him so?

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I just want you to know that the belief in God is a freedom in America and atheists should respect that!

I respect your freedom to believe but I DO NOT respect your religion.  It is not worthy of respect - it's horrible.  It does horrible things.  I just wish people would force themselves to become a little more educated on matters before settling on "god did it!" because if they did, they might be shocked at what they'd find and feel betrayed by the lies they've docilely believed for years.

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If anything the belief in God is a delusion ( a false belief)

You said it, not me.

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You know you are intelligent when you come up with something for yourself and quit looking at everyone else.

That is all I am arguing for.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 05, 2010, 07:44:15 pm
No it wasn't a personal attack but I don't like how the atheists on this forum think they are so smart and call believers morons or whatever else.

If you really have to brag about something it is more than likely it isn't you.

I've never called a believer a moron to their face.  That's mean and usually not the case, anyway.  It has more to do with emotional weakness.

And I don't recall bragging about being intelligent on this forum.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 06, 2010, 08:59:32 am
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Blanket statements that cannot be backed up and generalizations that don't have a thing to do with what queenofnines asked. Do you purposely take topics off the rails just to get things stirred up?

May I remind you she's trolling again. She believes in god and then admits god is a delusion. She's psycho. Don't fall into her obvious cycle-trap.

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1) How would you feel? (depressed, neutral, relieved, etc.)

1.) Very mixed but mostly neutral. The reason I say this is because personally I wouldn't care much due to my stance. What I would care about is what happens to everyone else and how it could effect me. People have such a ground-in definition of god, religion, spirituality, etc. in their heads that taking that away from them could prove disasterous. In cultural cases, delusional thinking can keep the peace.

I speculate that removing this pillow would prove to have negative consequences on peaceful people, but positive side effects on extremists. Peacefuls would realize that there's no need to fear and love an invisible being and might turn violent and careless due to them realizing there's no after-life consequences for their actions. But with the extremists, since they're already violent, I would expect them to come to terms with themselves and realize what awful horrific and monstrous people they really are. Preaching hate, swaying weak minds, blowing people up, etc. throughout history and all in the name of their god-- all for nothing. I would hope they'd lead a life of redemption and do a 180 on what they were bringing to the world.

That, or maybe the suicide rate would sky rocket.

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2) How do you think it might change your life

Other than looking at telescope images of other galaxies and going "WTF!? WHY SO FAR!?", nothing really.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 06, 2010, 11:16:20 am
Welcome to the discussion, Falconer!   :D

What I would care about is what happens to everyone else and how it could effect me. People have such a ground-in definition of god, religion, spirituality, etc. in their heads that taking that away from them could prove disasterous. In cultural cases, delusional thinking can keep the peace.

I agree that is a very real possibility and is what makes the whole thing so sad!  It's probably better (and more realistic) to gradually move away from our god delusions than try to change the whole world in a day.

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I speculate that removing this pillow would prove to have negative consequences on peaceful people, but positive side effects on extremists. Peacefuls would realize that there's no need to fear and love an invisible being and might turn violent and careless due to them realizing there's no after-life consequences for their actions. But with the extremists, since they're already violent, I would expect them to come to terms with themselves and realize what awful horrific and monstrous people they really are.

Yeah, I think some people would definitely take the "I can get away with anything now" mentality and run with it, forgetting that there are still real-world consequences and punishments for their behaviors just like there always was.  I would hope most people would realize that without god, life is now much more precious, and would respect their fellow human beings' right to it.  It only requires a brain of moderate goodness and strength to be able to do that.

As for extremists seeing the err of their ways...I dunno, I still think a lot of them would continue on being nuts about something.

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That, or maybe the suicide rate would sky rocket.

Eh, we can't really guess how much it would go up.  It would definitely go up...but hopefully, people would realize that nothing's really changed in life in regards to what makes them happy or what interests them.  That everything that makes life great still makes it worth living, even if it is only for 70 or 80 years.  We are driven by instinct to survive at all costs and it takes real *bleep* to force yourself to overcome that!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 06, 2010, 01:16:44 pm
That is such a bad sin...very bad sin! Sin, Sin, Sin! Trying to get people to not believe in God by using all these big words like you are so smart  :thumbsup: bad sin, very bad! You don't believe in God but you are the only ones hurting believers...I'm psycho, well you are without a soul!! Yes, I am trolling  ::) shut up already  :P

What is Falconer, a dog?  Because that's how you're talking to him.  And he is so smart - no big words required.

Yes, Falconer is without a soul  :'(...but so are you, marieelissa, because there are no souls.

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It just shows you are not as intelligent as I because I have to go back and explain everything I type.

You can't be explained because you are a chaotic mess.

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I never said I feel God is a delusion and what I meant is if anything God is a delusion but that doesn't make the people that believe in him unintelligent because a delusion is just a belief. It has nothing to do with intelligence (delusions)

It DOES have something to do with intelligence.  You're not very intelligent if you willfully believe in the creation story, Noah's Ark myth, virgin birth, and so on in today's world.  If you are a sloth when it comes to analyzing important issues, I don't care what your job or status is, you are not all there intellectually.

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A lot of really intelligent people are nuts. There has been studies on it and most of your nuts have very high IQs

You're speaking for yourself here, I suppose.  ;)
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: dell9031 on June 06, 2010, 03:25:40 pm
Quite frankly if that was the case I would be living my life completley different and those on death row would probably have nothing on me with the desperate acts of selfishness I would pursue. 
The Godlessness of man knows no bounds and no one, not even myself, would behave any differently.
It would be about survival...I would live only for myself, not for others.

I live for others because God commands it of me as he lived and died for me.  I can never repay that debt...but his Son will speak for me.....
If you posted you would be good and nothing would chnag for you...I would call you naive at best and a liar at worse who has not truly examined the depravity of who they are in the eyes of God without Jesus Christ as their savior.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 06, 2010, 03:47:34 pm
those on death row would probably have nothing on me with the desperate acts of selfishness I would pursue.

Wow, that's scary if you are being serious.
  
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It would be about survival...I would live only for myself, not for others.

We're not living in caveman times anymore.  Most people (in the developed countries, at least) are not in danger of dying of due to poor life circumstances, so I think you are being dramatic by using the term "survival".  In fact, if you wished to pursue the kind of lifestyle you have now without god - with all of the medicine and technology at your disposal - you would NEED others to ensure a quality life like that.  We used to live in small tribes, but not we live in big, connected communities that depend on each other.  The world would not suddenly stop working, with everyone running around bat-*bleep* loco, if we came to the conclusion one day that there are no gods.  I mean maybe it would, but look at horrible occurrences like the Haiti earthquake and how people reach out to HELP others in a crisis like that.

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If you posted you would be good and nothing would chnag for you...I would call you naive at best and a liar at worse

You really need to get out and meet more atheists.  We're not the ones killing gays, blowing up abortion clinics, and raping hordes of little boys.  I can directly respond to this sentence because I am living as if there is no god: there are countless people who are "better" than me in terms of being a good person, but to my credit, I am not doing things to blatantly harm others like you claim you would without god.  As for being changed, the only major thing that changed was my critical thinking abilities and outlook on life.  I live pretty much the same life in terms of my daily activities, it's just now I'm not being held back in what I do and believe based on ancient fables.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 06, 2010, 04:09:30 pm
 :cat:  No matter what any of us actually believe, the bottom line is when we die, we'll then know what goes on after death on earth.  There are too many experiences in my life that have proven God is there for me, including reading His Word.  Personally,  I know I'll be in Heaven with God and my passed loved ones who believed in God.  According to God's Word, the other place to go is the everlasting place of punishment.  Some people say Heaven on earth and others say Heaven for eternity,after death.  I, for one, do not wish to be in a place of punishment forever.  As far as God and Creation are concerned, do some deep thinking on:  how the earth got here; how we have seasons; why are we here;  how animals have basic instincts to be able to survive in their lives, etc.  Those things didn't just happen. Someone perfect happened and created it.  Overall, I have  faith  in God that He is there and without that faith I wouldn't be able to spend eternity with Him.  I do not push my views on people, but I do talk about it when the opportunity arises.  I don't tell atheists they are wrong, but am willing to talk both views with them.  I, however, do pray for them.  Oh, and btw, I do not include myself as agreeing with those who blow up abortion clinics, etc.  I have to wonder what really motivates those kinds of people.  That's way over the line for any of us.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on June 06, 2010, 05:11:33 pm
No matter what any of us actually believe, the bottom line is when we die, we'll then know what goes on after death on earth.

I disagree with that completely. By saying it doesn't matter "what any of us actually believe" you are implying that non-believers/atheists consider life "after death on earth". That is 100% a faith based way of thinking and I can only speak for myself, but there is nothing after death on earth.

I would love to think that all believers faced with proof of no God would go on living a life similar to the one they live now as far as those who have morals, a conscience, consider others in their actions, etc. Truthfully, I think it would be so devastating for most they would say the hell with it and become completely self centered and destructive. Look at all the situations with large groups who have followed self-declared messiahs in the past and then sudenly figure out in their own or are forced to be realistic due to pressures from people outside the group. The results have been everything from suicides, killing one's entire family, killing sprees outside the group, total psychosis, and much more. Now multiply that by millions of people suddenly having all they hold as true taken away and I shudder to think what it might be like. I also think there are countless people barely holding on right now and doing it only because they have their faith to get them through. Take that away and what have they got left?

(edited to add) I didn't want it to sound as if the whole world would go bonkers. I do believe there would still be many who would adjust and go on living a productive, content (as possible) life until their last day. I also believe it would definitely bridge the gap and start some fantastic dialogue with 'us'.  ;)
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 06, 2010, 06:00:05 pm
I know, it is like only people that believe in God are against abortion and hate gay people and molest little children, when in all truth there are plenty of atheists that are the same way...

Without a doubt there are atheists who are bad people who hate gays and whatnot...*but* people who don't follow a religion are in the minority (millions versus religion's BILLIONS).  And these types of bad atheists are a minority within the minority...they're the ones who probably didn't do much research and deep thought on the god issue and are just your average, selfish idiot.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 06, 2010, 06:11:09 pm
I honestly think if one day it was fact that no God exists that a lot of people would become clinically depressed and be unable to function and almost turn into zombies kinda like a catatonic in a walking coma.

Yep, some would...and that's unfortunate, because nothing about their LIFE has changed, just their after-life.  If they can't realize that simple fact, they're screwed.

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The others would fear nothing but cops and crime rate would go up...rapes, murder, revenge, theft

I don't think so.  The people who do bad things today do them because they are inherently bad people from poor backgrounds.  God has nothing to do with it, nor does a belief/disbelief in god stop them.

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Some others would be greedy and selfish and think of only theirselves and their family

This already goes on today.

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The ones that didn't believe in God and were already atheist, I feel would be upset because I do feel even though they don't believe in god there is always that small chance he could exist.

Not this atheist.

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I only think a small, very small percent of people like 1 person in every city would be unaffected and live the way they always did.

I think we are completely capable as a species of continuing to live a good life.  However, there IS that potential for destruction, so reaching the no-god conclusion should probably not be done in haste so that we may have a higher success rate.

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I do not think it would be a good thing for there to be no God and if there wasn't a God there would definitely be a need to create one.

That's why primitive man evolved such beliefs.  It makes me sad that in 2010, so many of you still need your delusions.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 06, 2010, 07:56:47 pm
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Welcome to the discussion, Falconer!

HEWWO!

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Yes, Falconer is without a soul

Correct. I am an android. My CPU is a neural-net processor; a learning computer.

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I live for others because God commands it of me as he lived and died for me. I can never repay that debt

This sounds like an unrealistic burden you're putting on your shoulders if you have no supernatural proof that you can show us. What about people like me who get a free ride then? No guilt or unrealistic burdens with no good reasonings behind them VS. playing the 'born into debt you cannot repay" card? Realistically, what seems more appealing? I don't feel an ounce of guilt for whatever I do unless it does harm to another or horrible damage to myself. This is because I've felt many types of pain. I don't like these pains and neither do the majority.

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...but his Son will speak for me.....If you posted you would be good and nothing would chnag for you...I would call you naive at best and a liar at worse who has not truly examined the depravity of who they are in the eyes of God without Jesus Christ as their savior

The problem here seems to be naivety-- you call others naive and liars but I feel you haven't stepped out of your Christian box to examine what it would be like all around. If the irrational and enslaving shields caused by religion disappear, people would be forced to deal with reality. No superstitions. No delusional burdens. No bending over for no reason.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 06, 2010, 08:32:58 pm
The ones that didn't believe in God and were already atheist, I feel would be upset because I do feel even though they don't believe in god there is always that small chance he could exist.
:cat: You have to wonder why there are many people on their deathbeds who suddenly turn to God before they die. Perhaps deep down is the fear that if He really does exist, they want to accept Him. My father did that.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: omgitsstephanie on June 07, 2010, 03:12:14 am
Thankfully, I don't follow a religion that sets rules on how I should live my life, and act as a person.
That would be slavery, and I'm just not for that ;D
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: tzs on June 07, 2010, 04:50:51 am
I think most people are atheists because they don't know if God is there and cannot tell so therefore they just don't believe and move on.
If you can sit down and have an actual conversation with God-you are talking to yourself!!!! How about just believing in yourself and what you do on this earth, not some entity that may or may not exist.  The good things that you have accomplished on this planet are because of YOU. Try giving yourself a little bit of credit......
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on June 07, 2010, 06:27:08 am
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You have to wonder why there are many people on their deathbeds who suddenly turn to God before they die. Perhaps deep down is the fear that if He really does exist, they want to accept Him. My father did that.
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I think people do that on their deathbeds to just be safe but I don't think it will work because God knows your thoughts and heart.

The second statement goes against all I learned and what is stated in the Bible ie God forgives all who repent their sins, regardless of when they do it. Or does he pick and choose now?
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 07, 2010, 10:01:07 am
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I think he will do more when you don't have skeptics waiting for something to happen!

So, Marie...what cereal does god like to eat for breakfast? Does he prefer dogs or cats? I highly suggest you take your pills. Reading your posts = really awkward. Wow.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 07, 2010, 02:19:02 pm
I really think it helps people, well some, actually become more civilized and nicer towards one another...willing to help out in soup kitchens or help homeless...churches help people with their electricity bills, clothes, food and other things.

If it can prevent somebody from being a sh*tty person, then I'm for it.  But the better person is the one who does nice things out of pure kindness, no god strings attached.  And there ARE atheist/secular charities, hello.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 07, 2010, 02:23:12 pm
You have to wonder why there are many people on their deathbeds who suddenly turn to God before they die. Perhaps deep down is the fear that if He really does exist, they want to accept Him.

It's a fearful instinct, kind of like how some people who are committing suicide try to stop it at the last minute, but it's too late.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 07, 2010, 02:30:23 pm
Don't be fooled people by this Qeenofnines because in another post to me she said this:

"No, marieelissa, I am an atheist.  I do not leave any possibility open for there being a god like agnostics do.  But I'm also not an idiot, and because I am not an idiot, I can't 100% say there is no god just like we can't 100% say we are sure about ANYTHING"

Yea, since we as believers can't 100% say he is not there...we just believe - IT IS BETTER to be SAFE than SORRY!  :thumbsup:

And don't be fooled by this marieelissa -- you will quickly catch on that she is not all there.

You missed the point of my statement.  No one can say 100% there is not a god (just like you can't say 100% there are no invisible pink unicorns), but the likelihood of him existing given today's evidence is so small that you can pretty much round the possibility down to zero.

And as for "better safe than sorry" - you said yourself god knows who the phonies are.  Pascal's Wager: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcWdV0LYG4&playnext_from=TL&videos=w1tMok-vT1o
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 07, 2010, 02:38:58 pm
All you have to do is look at how you talked to me because of my views and what I believe and how I think. You have called me a weirdo, psycho, moron, idiot, troll and so on...just because I am not like you and don't feel the same way as you do and it isn't even a damn crime, not something I could go to jail for!!

I think you are thinking of some other people because I've never called you a moron, idiot, or troll...I might have called you a weirdo and I believe I have called you crazy.  Still, I try to keep it pretty tame.  Definitely nowhere near the DEATH WISHES *you* have given other people.  I've even sort of defended you on occasion by saying people don't hate you.  The reason you have gotten ill words tossed your way by people on this forum is because you are not stable in your statements and often write childish retorts.

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So thank God there is a belief in God for some because no one, nobody, never is nice to anyone, ever...unless the are the same skin color, think the same way, talk the same way, look the same way, are the same weight, believe the same way and even then, no not all the time are they nice.

Geez, yes there are a TON of selfish a**holes out there, but there will always be SOME good people, god or no god, whether you're an "attractive" recipient of their kindness or not.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 07, 2010, 02:45:08 pm
Actually you don't even have to talk to God out loud because he knows your thoughts and heart and that's when awsome things happen, when you talk to God that way, I think he will do more when you don't have skeptics waiting for something to happen!

Ask yourself why god doesn't answer any prayers or do anything that is impossible in the natural world.  He used to walk on water and sh*t, but in today's world all he bothers to do is show up on toast??  Start looking back on your "answered prayers" and think of how what happened could have came to be on its own.  Realizing that god's answered prayers weren't anything special or miraculous is one of several things that got me to wake up to the truth.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 07, 2010, 02:59:34 pm
God doesn't prefer any animal, he created them all, he does not favor a dog over a cat or vice versa. God doesn't eat cereal...he ate from the tree that he told Adam and Eve not to eat since it was his.

Glad you have the answers to these questions!   :thumbsup:

God loves animals more than humans if Noah's Ark means anything, btw.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CccaGaKOlSI&playnext_from=TL&videos=ZSIJ4BrM1uQ
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 07, 2010, 04:20:29 pm
Actually you don't even have to talk to God out loud because he knows your thoughts and heart and that's when awsome things happen, when you talk to God that way, I think he will do more when you don't have skeptics waiting for something to happen!

Ask yourself why god doesn't answer any prayers or do anything that is impossible in the natural world.  He used to walk on water and sh*t, but in today's world all he bothers to do is show up on toast??  Start looking back on your "answered prayers" and think of how what happened could have came to be on its own.  Realizing that god's answered prayers weren't anything special or miraculous is one of several things that got me to wake up to the truth.
:cat: God does answer prayers, just not always what we want.  Sometimes there's a "yes", sometimes a "no", and I believe (my opinion) a "maybe later."  Because sometimes things you want do come to pass later.  Also I agree that He knows your thoughts and heart.  I also believe He expects you to talk with Him and ask Him for what you need or want (whether aloud or from the heart.)  You have to take that step and not just expect Him to give you all things all the time.  Also, Marieelissa:: Bravo to you turning to Him and hanging on for all you went through.  That's what has helped definitely make you stronger. 
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on June 07, 2010, 04:28:26 pm
@marieelissa-
Just got home from my 'real job' and had to see what I have missed. Since you have gone into full blown B**CH mode again with your remarks, especially to queenofnines, and after she has been so reserved in her replies to you, I am done trying to be even remotely understanding. I know I shouldn't, but I am lowering myself to your standards - yes, I did say lowering.

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So thank God there is a belief in God for some because no one, nobody, never is nice to anyone, ever...unless the are the same skin color, think the same way, talk the same way, look the same way, are the same weight, believe the same way and even then, no not all the time are they nice.

Wow, some serious paranoia going on here! No wonder you think everyone is after you - I know I have said that before. That may be how it is in your life and your world, but NOT in mine. I guess it is okay for you to be rude and call names as long as no one does it back? Maybe that is why you don't know any 'nice' people, you are not the type who would attract them, trust that.

You are right, I am not all there...I had a nervous breakdown at 16 and fell into a walking coma and was catatonic and never fully recovered!! I went clinically depressed at 16 and was very suicidal and didn't want to live anymore and that is when I ran to God and stayed by his side ever since!

I believe the Devil tries to get me to leave God and turn on God by having everyone torture me in God's name!!
You can call me the devil himself for saying this, but I think the above statement is out and out :bs: How long were you in an institution, huh? Because anyone with catatonia is not simply left out walking the streets. You also weren't born in the 1940's or before, so how did you finish school?
Nevermind, it should come as no surprise to me that you would come in and lay down some more "Marie Drama". It goes well with what I said about you and the "poor me, such a victim" which you always pull out at some point whenever things get too uncomfortable for you. It's about time for you to go into 'delete all posts that look bad' mode too. Soooo, as you would eloquently say, "Whatever!" :wave:
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 07, 2010, 04:53:38 pm
 :cat:  Actually, I thought we were responding to queenofnines' post.  At least that's what I'm trying to do.  Things keep going off in a negative direction instead of discussing her hypothetical questions!!!!!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 07, 2010, 07:43:11 pm
If there's anyone that's ever been in a discussion thread with her, all that she does is troll. She veers topics off of cliffs and then thinks we're the mean ones for calling her out on it. I dont even know where or what to respond to because of her mindless dribble. Do yourself a favor and hit the ignore button under her name on the left.

Marie, you are NOT the protagonist here. You dress yourself up as the comic relief and it's annoying. You should really stop posting if you have any decency left in that broken mind of yours.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Stephers1985 on June 07, 2010, 11:50:03 pm
Thankfully, I don't follow a religion that sets rules on how I should live my life, and act as a person.
That would be slavery, and I'm just not for that ;D

I agree!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 08, 2010, 02:58:51 pm
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That's not my fault if you don't like what I post and cannot handle what I say. There is always that ignore button...

Your posts reek of trolling and I don't understand why everyone in D+D does not do this. It's kind of hard to ignore a troll when people quote your 50 posts before another user posts something. Just keep taking those meds.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 08, 2010, 06:10:51 pm
All righty then, what are you trying to do? Make me mad so I start yelling and cussing? Trying to make me think I am a troll when you are the one that keeps on *bleep* with me.

 :o

This is an example of what we're all talking about.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 08, 2010, 06:11:46 pm
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All righty then, what are you trying to do? Make me mad so I start yelling and cussing? Trying to make me think I am a troll when you are the one that keeps on *bleep* with me.

Quoted since she'll soon delete her post once she takes her pills.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on June 08, 2010, 07:02:22 pm
All righty then, what are you trying to do? Make me mad so I start yelling and cussing? Trying to make me think I am a troll when you are the one that keeps on *bleep* with me.
Jesus Christ you will just never quit. Fine then I will!  :bs:
Taking (your) Lord's name in vain and the filthy mouth on you? Those are acts and behaviour that will get you into (your) Heaven? If that is how you conduct yourself and it takes you to some glorious realm beyond this life, then you can have the corner on that market.

No one has the power to make you mad. You choose to get angry, period.

You always say we "don't know you". Well that is not 100% correct. Don't you realize that what you write is the only way anyone can use to judge the type of person you are on here? Just the 2 examples I quoted make you look foolish, uncouth, and yes, ignorant. Ignorant does NOT always = unintelligent either. You may have the ability to learn and know things, but your ignorance as to how society works in general is very apparent.

(Yes, thanks to queenofnines and AmyTrivitt, I am still here and I am still voicing my thoughts and opinions. ;))
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 09, 2010, 07:23:28 am
Getting back on topic, it's interesting how most responses went the way of "if the whole world went atheist", when originally I intended the question to be on a more individual basis - what it would mean for YOU (although I admit, the last bit about the whole church turning around and rejecting might have confused the matter).
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on June 09, 2010, 11:05:33 am
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Those that really believe will not be able to contribute to your little exercise.

Hmm, I highly doubt I will ever have millions of dollars to spend, BUT I could still tell you what I would do IF the situation happened. Why is this so different?

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It isn't good to try to make people not believe in God.

Where do you come up with the idea she is trying to make people not believe in God?

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It is like me asking all atheists to sit back and think about what they would do if there was a God and how would they feel if they found out they were wrong and would it affect them in either a good way or bad way.

Gee, I think I could open up my mind enough to do that especailly since I grew up believing and being taught there was one. Not everyone goes from believer to atheist or vice versa.

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a lot of believers will think what you are doing on these forums is Evil and coming from the Devil...maybe that's why people start being offensive or look like trolls.

No, there have been a couple reasonable posts on here and only trolling from one. As far as evil and coming from the devil, that is more of that over the top crap that the Christians I know don't go for and would laugh at. I bet they would consider your swearing and 'blasphemy' in God's name evil and from the devil....
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 09, 2010, 11:24:33 am
It is never gonna happen since no one can prove there is no God.

No one will ever be able to prove 100% there is no god, correct, BUT just because we cannot absolutely disprove him/her/it does not mean that is a good argument FOR god.  We need to get people thinking and observing what is true as far as we can know what is true rather than staying hung up on wishful thinking.  That is the best model.

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Why would believers want to think about there being no God when in fact there is one?

No, marieelissa, you do not get to say "in fact there is one".  God is NOT A FACT.  And THAT'S a fact.  lol

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Those that really believe will not be able to contribute to your little exercise.

Of course they can.  Because god is NOT A FACT, there is a very real possibility that perhaps they as a believer are mistaken, have been brainwashed and led astray by wishful thinking (which is what is clear to all non-god people).  They have this whole charade going on in their head to keep god alive, but deep down, at some point, some of them have feared that they could be wrong about what happens when they die and what the scientific evidence points to is right.  Because god is conveniently invisible, because so much bad sh*t happens, or for whatever other very valid reason to DOUBT...I'm saying, don't shut this opportunity to ponder the alternative to your god.  Better to be prepared for it to be the actual reality of our world than to ignore it and cover it up with a popular lie (religion).

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It isn't good to try to make people not believe in God.

Yes it is!  I have confidence that most of you would be just fine knowing the truth (that this is all there is), harsh as it seems at first.  BUT...believers can only help themselves.  No atheist can change them.

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It is like me asking all atheists to sit back and think about what they would do if there was a God and how would they feel if they found out they were wrong and would it affect them in either a good way or bad way.

Uh, we've all already addressed this individually.

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a lot of believers will think what you are doing on these forums is Evil and coming from the Devil...maybe that's why people start being offensive or look like trolls.

I'm aware of that, to which I ask you to ponder how ridiculous it is that some red guy with a pitchfork is running around possessing people.  And if you're "good" you go to the good place, and if you're "bad" you go to the bad place.  C'mon, that is so clearly man-made fairytale B.S. right there.  THINK about it!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 09, 2010, 07:26:26 pm
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Do remember you are talking to a Schizophrenic and that I hear and see things that other people say are not there. That is why I know God is there...The doctor's only diagnosed me Schizophrenic because they are going by Science and that there is no God.

I have heard my Grandfather say my name twice since he died...I had a women's voice tell me to open a Blue Present under the Christmas Tree because it was mine and that before I could open any more my mother would be out there to hand me all my presents (Guess the women didn't want me to open any one else presents) but anyways the whole incident is on Home Movies and my Grandmother was like "Elissa are you sure that is yours" and I said "yes cause it is blue" btw is was my present and I was only 4 years old...

There are many, many, many, many, many other things like this that took place in my life! So I have 1 of 5 options to pick from

Either:
1.) I am Schizophrenic (which is really cool, and my mind is awsome how it can do things like that and very entertaining and interesting and not a bad thing at all..yet)
2.) I have a gift (born with it)
3.) It is ET
4.) I am just supremely intelligent where it almost seems I am psychic (which my dad's IQ is off the charts btw)
5.) There is a God and people rely on their own findings and search for answers themselves (Science) and dismiss God and God is doing all this stuff with me.

LMAO!!!! Oh wow this is $$$ INTERNET GOLD $$$!!!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 09, 2010, 10:18:27 pm
 :cat: Well, I answered the hypothetical questions, but I now need to make a firm statement. I do believe in God, and nothing will alter that, no matter how deep you want us to delve into this issue.  I could turn your question around and ask you to consider that yes, there is a God, but no matter what you do about it, it sounds like your mind is also made up on what you believe.  A lot of debate questions and answers in here keep proving that each will continue to believe what they believe and that is that. (It's sad that some can get off track by criticising certain people in here.)  I can say, though, that there are many people who do turn their decisions around due to evidence of things that happen to them, or changes in people they know (attitude differences, lifestyle, etc.) when they chose God, and studying God's Word.  I will say I will pray for all of us in here.  It will be interesting to check back periodically and see if any changes are made one way or another.  This has been a most interesting debate!!!  :heart: :star: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 10, 2010, 07:57:10 am
Quote from: marieelissa
No it's more like Priceless

Then why did you delete it?   ;D  

I do believe in God, and nothing will alter that, no matter how deep you want us to delve into this issue.

That's fine and that may be true.  It's good you at least honestly thought about it.  However, I don't think we should always be quick to tie ourselves down to one kind of lifestyle forever, because we don't know what future events may happen that may lead us to question our current lifestyles.

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I could turn your question around and ask you to consider that yes, there is a God

Well the thing is, me, jordandog, and Falconer all used to be true biblical believers, so we have considered it.  It often appears that Christians forget that - like most people who are atheists/agnostics have always been - when that is rarely the case.

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it sounds like your mind is also made up on what you believe.

No, I'd be willing to believe in a god if there was any good evidence for it.  But there's not.  There is heaps of evidence AGAINST the biblical god specifically, and that is why I am an atheist.  I cannot ignore the facts to cater to me feelings, no matter how badly I want to have purpose in my life or live more than 80 years.

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A lot of debate questions and answers in here keep proving that each will continue to believe what they believe and that is that.

That is that only in the short-term.  Life-altering changes like going from believer to non take time, but it can and has been done.

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(It's sad that some can get off track by criticising certain people in here.)

Don't be too perturbed by it.  Certain people get a kick out of stirring trouble up, and therefore they must be shot down in a way that looks like criticizing, but is really just quality content control.

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I can say, though, that there are many people who do turn their decisions around due to evidence of things that happen to them, or changes in people they know (attitude differences, lifestyle, etc.) when they chose God, and studying God's Word.

And you know what?  9.9/10 of those "shifts to god" are due to entirely emotional reasons/events, which the person doesn't realize is very misleading.  

I was watching something on The Science Channel last night where they took a female test subject and evoked a sense of spiritual/god things simply by stimulating part of her right hemisphere, affirming that god is all in our heads and evolved for survival.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: FuzzyCottonsocks on June 10, 2010, 01:55:52 pm
I think I would be depressed, but would get on with life.  No more prayers at night. I would probably feel more alone and maybe more fearful of death.   
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 10, 2010, 03:03:36 pm
I think I would be depressed, but would get on with life.  No more prayers at night. I would probably feel more alone and maybe more fearful of death.   

I wasn't depressed when I initially made the Christian --> atheist change.  Probably because it's something I suspected and had ready in the back of my mind for a long time, that this may be all there is (if a person doesn't think about this at some point, they are naive).  I was SHOCKED when I realized I was wrong about god though, because I had truly bought into it all for 5 full years.  My newly ex-Christian self was like, "When I'm dead I'm dead?  Oh well."  I moved on and realized nothing had really changed about my life, other than the lies that I used to believe in regards to someone watching out for me, heaven, etc.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 10, 2010, 04:15:25 pm
 :cat: Faith is the evidence of things not seen.  People in B.C. (Before Christ) times saw Him.  Now that we are in A.D. (After Death) times, faith is what we have, along with His Word.  Isn't it strange that some people don't even realize the B.C. and A.D. are determined by His life and death.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 10, 2010, 04:27:02 pm
You must be like a robot or mechanical or something because death is the hardest part about life.

Oh no, there are people who are far more mechanical about it than me.  I think the way I feel about it is pretty healthy.  The only part that I think sucks is if I were young (30s or below) and knew I was going to die.  Then it would be sad because I wouldn't be getting to live my full life.  But once death happens, what can you do?  Nothing.

But as far as what a good number of people get, 70-80 years?  That's plenty if you live your life to the fullest, don't take things too seriously, and live to make YOURSELF (not some authority figure) happy.  Sure it may be nice if we could amp it up to a few hundred years of life expectancy, but forever?  No thanks.  (Btw, when your brain and body are destroyed, the matter recycles itself back into the universe, so in that sense, we are all "immortal").

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What if your husband got in a bad accident and died and that was it, you never see him again? You cannot communicate with him because there are no souls. That's just it, dead, gone, forever.

Hmm, that is pretty awful of you to say, but anyway, of course I would be devastated.  I would be devastated for exactly the reasons one SHOULD be devastated: he's gone for freaking ever!  Which is exactly why we should all cherish those who are important to us.

I always wondered how I'd react when someone important in my life died because it hadn't really happened, and when my dad did a few years ago, I wept BECAUSE they turned his memorial service into this fake, god-filled event of "oh, he's in heaven now".  No, he freaking killed himself, so he's not in heaven even by your Christian standards.  Sorry, TMI?  ;)

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You mean to tell me you could just go on about your day like that's life and things happen and you are unaffected - like O'Well - people die.

Not at first!  I'm sure I'd be quite depressed for a good year or two.  But eventually I'd have to move on if I want to continue living.  And that's the healthy thing to do.

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That's why people say they would be depressed if there was no God because of the above stuff I just mentioned.

And I don't get why people would be depressed without god.  There are SO many good things in life that make it worth living...love, pizza, kittens, puppies, roller coasters, ice cream, games, good conversation, travel, movies, TV shows, hobbies, comedy, music, sports, art...to infinity and beyond!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Tturn on June 10, 2010, 04:52:16 pm
The primary reason for any intelligent atheist not believing god is that there is evidence is against him!  Evidence that cannot be clearly seen when one is being suffocated by the security blanket of religion.
[/quote][/b]
 Thats just it, what athiest don't understand, is that GOD OR CHRIST are not a RELIGION, they are RELATIONSHIPS. And when you finally open your spiritual eyes and ears to God by asking him into your heart and you allow yourself to be humbled before him and let go of running your own life. Then and only then will you see God and hear him. But if you think just because you believe that THATS going to get you into heaven and yet you are still living for yourself then you will parish. He says you cannot be luke warm or he will spit you out. People will say they believed in him and casted out Demons in his name and he will turn and say turn away i never new you. The fact is its simple, God does exist and people dont want to believe because they dont want to give up there lives or material things that they think they earned all by themselves and refuse to want to change because there afraid and blinded by fear, and until blinders are removed Satan will keep playing Athiest for a fool as well as anyone who doesnt want to live there life for God. God knows were human and flaud and he knows you by your heart and fruit and so do people. God will forgive but you have to forgive yourself, others and Love your neighbor as yourself because thats what Gods is all about,he is Love. He only want us to live happy lives like we do for our childern. God knows you better than you do because he created you so he knows what will make you happy. Read your Bible its true. Faith is believing before seeing not seeing before believing. Remember his son paid the price for us. People are saying about pushing there views on people, wake up the governments already doing that. People who are pushing Christ on people are the ones who care if you parish because they know time is running out. Its time to take a stand and be strong in Christ before its to late.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: dbongi22 on June 10, 2010, 07:04:59 pm
I would have to say the bigger downer would be that I would no longer have anyone to look out for me. Like even if there is no God now, I still need to be able to believe in him in order to have someone I can always talk to.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 10, 2010, 07:13:18 pm
I would have to say the bigger downer would be that I would no longer have anyone to look out for me.

Yes, it can be scary if you focus on "oh crap, I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and nothing can stop it".  But the statistics are in our favor to live a long, healthy life for the most part (unless you blatantly do things to contradict that), and you can't live your life in fear, otherwise you're not really living at all.

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Like even if there is no God now, I still need to be able to believe in him in order to have someone I can always talk to.

You can find a few good people out there to help with this.  Or an animal.   :cat: :dog:  But mainly yes, you do need to be able to rely on yourself, and I've found that hard at times myself.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 10, 2010, 07:31:01 pm
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Isn't it strange that some people don't even realize the B.C. and A.D. are determined by His life and death.

We've changed this to BCE and CE.

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Thats just it, what athiest don't understand, is that GOD OR CHRIST are not a RELIGION, they are RELATIONSHIPS. And when you finally open your spiritual eyes and ears to God by asking him into your heart and you allow yourself to be humbled before him and let go of running your own life. Then and only then will you see God and hear him.

Yes. The relationship you speak of is a religion based on feelings only. I've heard of this many times. This sounds so anti-progressive though..just let go of all realism and jump into happyland? Do you let your guard down and let yourself be taken by magical thinking? Could you explain to me how this isn't the whole 'opiate for the people' idea?

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The fact is its simple, God does exist and people dont want to believe because they dont want to give up there lives or material things that they think they earned all by themselves and refuse to want to change because there afraid and blinded by fear, and until blinders are removed Satan will keep playing Athiest for a fool as well as anyone who doesnt want to live there life for God.

I'm not in a position to say if god exists or not, but (like I always say), the supernatural needs overwhelming supernatural evidence. If you say all of these things, show proof of the metaphysical and I'll believe you. But it seems all you have here is magical thinking, old stories with a personalized deity, and a typical antagonist. That's all atheists and agnostics ask for-- solid proof that passes basic skepticism. Do you have any? And why would god judge me for asking that? Sounds like a convenient thought process to keep your head in the sand, does it not?

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God will forgive but you have to forgive yourself, others and Love your neighbor as yourself because thats what Gods is all about,he is Love

Forgive what? I'm not evil and I was not born evil. I have no unsound burdens that you yourself have with this faith. And about god and love...answer me this-
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

(Epicurus)

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Read your Bible its true.

Have you ever opened it before?

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People who are pushing Christ on people are the ones who care if you parish because they know time is running out. Its time to take a stand and be strong in Christ before its to late.

And what of the other 1,000's of other religions and their gods who think the exact same thing you do? What about the nice and peaceful ones that don't do this?
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 10, 2010, 10:38:28 pm
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Isn't it strange that some people don't even realize the B.C. and A.D. are determined by His life and death.

We've changed this to BCE and CE.

 :cat: The change is not official as of yet.  Even the BCE and CE are coined with Christ: *"Common Era is also known as Christian Era and Current Era.; *Dates before the year 1 CE are indicated by the usage of BCE, short for "Before the Common Era", "Before the Christian Era", or "Before the Current Era".; *Both the BCE/CE and BC/AD are based on a sixth-century estimate for the year in which Jesus was born, with the common era originating among Christians in Europe at least as early as 1615."   

Regardiing the Bible, I have opened and read It.  It is part of my daily devotion life.  Have you opened and read It?

**Note to Tturn:  Your words are so true - I definitely agree with what you have to say.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 11, 2010, 08:59:13 am
Note to marieelissa: will you PUH-lease stop copy-pasting giant things in your responses?  No one is going to bother to read it, especially when it's in that Lucida handwriting.

The change is not official as of yet.

Even if it was/is "Before Christ", "Anno Domini" - that doesn't prove a thing.  Culture at large is such a hodgepodge of mythical stuff.  Some of the months of the year are named after Roman gods, for example.  Is this "proof" to go worship Janus (January), Mars (March), or Maiesta (May)??  I think not.

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Have you opened and read It?

Yes he has and the only reason he's saying that to you is because the Bible is one of the most potent forces for atheism/agnosticism ever conceived (to quote Isaac Asimov ;-) ).  Filled with rape, murder, slavery, sexism, animal and human sacrifice, ridiculous laws, stupid stories, bad science, Bronze Age ideas, etc. etc....any Christian who claims to have read the Bible is either (1) LYING; they've only read selective feel-good parts or only know what they've been taught at church (the majority of Xtians) or (2) DELUDED; if you can honestly sit down and read the Bible diligently straight through starting with page one and find no problems with it, you are either not paying attention or so far off the deep end in wanting to cling to your beliefs that you cannot realize how vile the Bible is and what a d*ck god is.

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**Note to Tturn:  Your words are so true - I definitely agree with what you have to say.

Eh, I usually don't bother to respond to paragraphs that go off on a cultish rant, a run-on paragraph filled with the words/phrases "Jesus", "died for our sins", and "it's a relationship".  It's pretty obvious that the person is too far-gone to be able to listen to any reason, but kudos to Falconer for responding.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: 2getherwewin on June 11, 2010, 09:17:44 am
What is the serious question all about?  There is a lot of question concerning that subject.  It's alot to think about.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 11, 2010, 09:32:47 am
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I have opened and read It.  It is part of my daily devotion life.  Have you opened and read It?

Yes. If you believe it's the truth, could you explain to me why you would say a book full of supernatural happenings is truth? I mean it's been rewritten over and over just so the stories would fall into each other correctly. I don't get how this could be truth when the opposite is so apparent. And even if it were truth, christians profess that god is love and he cares for us when almost every story in there is of him being horrifically cruel, genocidal, and mentally ill in asking people things (refer back to my Epicurus quote). Why would you align yourself with such a deity? Is it a mixture of fear and blind faith? And what of other religions?

I understand the above may sound a bit mean on my part-- if it comes off as that, I apologize. I'd just enjoy hearing how you believe in regards to these questions.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on June 11, 2010, 09:57:10 am
I have some to say, but can't do it right (now since I am at work and 'illegally' on a co-workers laptop in the doctors lounge, shhh, don't tell on me ;D), but
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No one is going to bother to read it, especially when it's in that Lucida handwriting.
Yes, please, give up the blue Lucida! It is so irritating to even attempt reading it. Won't even bother going into the lengthy Bible citations - again - but I can't even read her words in it. :(
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 11, 2010, 01:47:14 pm
You are such an Insolent!!!

Um, insolent is an adjective, not a noun.  lol

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You want people to respond to your thread and you treat them like this?!?

I was speaking in general; I wasn't personally attacking jcribb by saying most Christians who claim to have read the Bible HAVEN'T.  It's just the truth.  Nor was I personally attacking Tturn by referencing people who go off on long run-on paragraphs about Jesus (which I usually still read btw, it's just there's really not a point in responding because I'd have to point out their fallacies in every freaking sentence!!).

And you know you have no right to act like you're a saint on this forum.  You must have a memory problem in addition to the schizophrenia when it comes to the death/harm wishes you've bestowed on a number of people.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 11, 2010, 03:23:46 pm
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I have opened and read It.  It is part of my daily devotion life.  Have you opened and read It?

Yes. If you believe it's the truth, could you explain to me why you would say a book full of supernatural happenings is truth? I mean it's been rewritten over and over just so the stories would fall into each other correctly. I don't get how this could be truth when the opposite is so apparent. And even if it were truth, christians profess that god is love and he cares for us when almost every story in there is of him being horrifically cruel, genocidal, and mentally ill in asking people things (refer back to my Epicurus quote). Why would you align yourself with such a deity? Is it a mixture of fear and blind faith? And what of other religions?

I understand the above may sound a bit mean on my part-- if it comes off as that, I apologize. I'd just enjoy hearing how you believe in regards to these questions.

Great questions!  I'll answer the best I can from what I have learned.  From the beginnning when God first created the heaven and the earth, God made man (and woman) and let them live in Eden (which was Paradise.)  There was no sin at that time until the disobedience of God by eating what He said not to eat.  Sin entered and they were removed from that Paradise where now life would be hard.  Getting that aside (to introduce the beginning of human sin) God then set rules for the first family to follow.  This followed hundreds of years with a lot of what you discussed above ("cruel, genocidal", etc.) God told them from the beginning that He was a just God, but also a jealous God. When he gave His commandments he expected them to obey (& receive His love and protection) without question, or if they disobeyed, they received immediate punishment, including death.  Back then, people had to always offer sacrifices (animals) with certain stipulations to make up for certain sins, or to cleanse themselves for certain rituals.  When Jesus was born, He later became our sacrifice by willingly dying on the cross.  That means that we are now covered by the blood of Jesus and He is the mediator between God and us. 

I do know that so much of our previous generational history is based on people just wanted to worship God without restrictions (put on by the King of England at that time.) I can say that there are many questions I, too, have about things that happened back in those Old Testment times - some are beyond me as to why He did things certain ways and yet other ways it seemed He contradicted Himself.  But, I can say, that I (and whoever) trust in God, by faith (evidence of things not seen.) Based on this, I am trying to live a moral life for God.   

However, some of you may be right.  What if there really really isn't a God? When we die we will go nowhere.  But what is there really really is a God?   Then those of us who believe will live with Him in heaven forever.  Based on if there is a God, then that means unbelievers will be in that burning everlasting place of punishment.  Where would you (or queenofnines, since she asked us about it) be?   
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 11, 2010, 05:19:29 pm
However, some of you may be right.  What if there really really isn't a God? When we die we will go nowhere.  But what is there really really is a God?  Then those of us who believe will live with Him in heaven forever.  Based on if there is a God, then that means unbelievers will be in that burning everlasting place of punishment.  Where would you (or queenofnines, since she asked us about it) be?  

Hi jcribb!  I want to start off with a compliment; it's something I've been thinking for awhile.  I like the picture of your cat and how you often use the cat emoticon to start off your responses.  It's cute!  :)  I love animals.

Now onto this Pascal's Wager.  I often link to this video because it sums up the issue beautifully: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcWdV0LYG4&playnext_from=TL&videos=Vbjdef_qmUc  But, not all people will take the time to go to these videos, or will be turned off by the fact that the speaker is gay, so I'll summarize the main points of why Pascal's Wager doesn't faze atheists:

#1 Pascal's Wager is not an argument FOR the existence of god.  It doesn't offer any proof that god is real.  It is something that is trying to get you to believe entirely because of perceived advantages, not actual facts.
#2 You would already have to believe that god is a realistic possibility for Pascal's Wager to be a compelling argument.  For atheists who know the atrocities of the Bible, have studied scientific facts on everything from evolution to the origin of the universe to how the brain works, and have applied a good dose of critical thinking and common sense...god is not a realistic possibility.
#3 Pascal's Wager fails to account for multiple religions.  What if you pick the wrong religion and say, Muslims are the correct ones?  Pascal's Wager of believing in the Christian god won't do you any good then.
#4 Pascal's Wager asserts that if you believe in god and you're wrong, you lose nothing.  But is that really true?  Dedicating the only life you get to a falsehood is a rather serious mistake.  You've made a mistake and based your whole life around this mistake.  Our beliefs inform our actions, and there are plenty of things you might have done differently had you not had your falsehood belief.
#5 As for a non-believer's fate, isn't it enough if a person lived a good and decent life?  According to Pascal's Wager and god, no, it does not matter WHAT you've done in your life (good or BAD), it only matter what you BELIEVE.  A god that would punish ANYONE eternally (especially simply because of non-belief) while simultaneously allowing a serial killer who recanted on their death bed into heaven IS NOT WORTHY OF WORSHIP EVEN IF HE DOES EXIST.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on June 11, 2010, 06:34:54 pm
 :cat: Hi back at you, queenofnines!  Thanks for the compliment!  I guess it's pretty obvious how I feel about my kitty!

Thank you sharing about Pascal's Wager.  I have not heard of it before.  They are all worthy thoughts to think on and/or debate on.  I'm going to address the 5th point.  From what I know and have learned and feel deeply about is that every person has the opportunity to either accept God or reject Him.  The downside of it (even for me) is that no matter how good someone is or how well known they are, or how bad someone has been, each and every person has the opportunity to choose or not choose God.  It's like a person punishes himself or herself by not choosing God and not going to Heaven.  I don't know how familiar you are with the meaning behind Easter, when Jesus died and rose again after 3 days, but he had the 2 felons (or robbers) on either side of Him.  One made the choice to choose Jesus and Jesus promised that he would be with Him in Paradise.  The other did not choose God and so did not go to Paradise.  They were both robbers and did wrong, but one punished himself further by not choosing God.  I, myself, have a hard time understanding how a monstrous person in today's time can repent at the end and go to heaven.  I just have to keep faith and know that God knows what He's doing.  I feel horrible to think that someone I love that is the most sweetest, kindest person, could go to the other place, just by not choosing God.   

But then again, this is totally staying within the two questions of "What if there really really isn't a God?" and "What if there really really is a God?" One day, I hope I will truly understand all of this.  In the meantime, I choose God's side, and pray that my family, friends, and anyone else willing to make this choice will all be together with me on the other side.  

BTW,  I am normally a reserved person.  I can hardly believe I have taken part in this discussion.  Thank you for helping to bring me out and be more vocal about this subject!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 12, 2010, 07:44:27 am
From what I know and have learned and feel deeply about is that every person has the opportunity to either accept God or reject Him.

This is a common argument from the believer's side to which I say, why is god so insecure that he NEEDS people to believe in and worship him?  

It would really be a weird game we're all playing if the Christian god were true: so he created us 6,000 years ago, everything was perfect and well, but for some reason he saw fit to "test" us even though he knew we would fail (if he's omniscient), so he put a fruit tree in this garden that Eve COULDN'T have known the full consequences of until AFTER she ate from it (because how do you know something is right or wrong prior to the knowledge of it?), now every ancestor after has to carry the burden of this "mistake".  But god manifested himself to be tortured and murdered for this "disobedience" of which he basically put the dominoes in place to let it happen, so now we don't have to be burned and tortured forever for something Eve did out of innocence.  

God created a world where all of the scientific evidence points to evolution and a Big Bang and dinosaurs being from millions of years ago, completely natural, which is why 93% of scientists don't believe in god.  But god loves the scientists and atheists, even if they don't love him!  But they're still going to burn if they simply can't buy into all of this.

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I, myself, have a hard time understanding how a monstrous person in today's time can repent at the end and go to heaven.  I just have to keep faith and know that God knows what He's doing.  I feel horrible to think that someone I love that is the most sweetest, kindest person, could go to the other place, just by not choosing God.

You're allowed to question it!  Think about it -- how is that we, as parents and mere humans, can know that it would be wrong to lock our teenager in the basement and continually beat them for the rest of their life if they did not respect our authority (which teenagers often don't), didn't believe something we said, or chose to follow a life plan that we don't approve of.  So why is god, the all-perfect, "all-loving" creator of the universe allowed to??  Simply because he's "god"?  No, this god contradicts any reasonable person's definition of all-loving.  It is not all-loving to send his children to this hell place *he created*to be TORTURED.FOREVER. for ANY reason.  That is needless suffering.  That is not justice because infinite punishment is not compatible with finite crimes.  Even Hitler does not deserve to go to hell, because he did not cause infinite suffering.

And again I go back to, why would you want to worship a god who favors people kissing up to him (including say, someone who killed your whole family but then found Jesus on death row) over a decent, kind person who would never hurt a fly who simply couldn't believe because the physical evidence is so insufficient?  That is a very real question.  Is it out of fear?  I'm here to tell ya you don't have to be afraid because the fact that god is supposed to be "all-loving" and perfect but then allows something like this points to a contradiction, that he is made-up by man to control people and take their money and is no different from the now dead, mythical gods of our ancestors.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 12, 2010, 10:11:59 am
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Great questions!  I'll answer the best I can from what I have learned.

Cool.

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From the beginning when God first created the heaven and the earth, God made man (and woman) and let them live in Eden (which was Paradise.)  There was no sin at that time until the disobedience of God by eating what He said not to eat.  Sin entered and they were removed from that Paradise where now life would be hard.

Well right here is where I have trouble understanding why someone would believe the bible is truth. This story is so mythical in origin yet people take it as real. Understand what your criteria is-- A god who knows everything and yet lets his creations fail, a magical perfect fertile place where everything is happy and lives forever, a man made from dirt and a woman made from a rib, a talking snake, etc. It's pretty crazy when you stand back and look at it! How can you introduce this as proof that the bible is truth when the story is so far out that nobody could take it seriously that does not believe the same way as you?

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God told them from the beginning that He was a just God, but also a jealous God. When he gave His commandments he expected them to obey (& receive His love and protection) without question, or if they disobeyed, they received immediate punishment, including death.

Given this information, why would anyone endorse or promote this jealous God? He sees everything as black and white whereas any person of basic intelligence can tell that anything rarely is black and white (technicalities and all). I would think this information makes a lot more sense to believe man created this god as a way to control tribal people from doing awful things to eachother.

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He did things certain ways and yet other ways it seemed He contradicted Himself.

This is what I meant by the rewritings of the bible. It would seem since it's not perfect, and yet god is supposedly omnipotent and perfect, something is massively wrong here. I'm glad you do question it-- it's something I RARELY see in christians.

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What if there really really isn't a God? When we die we will go nowhere.  But what is there really  really is a God?    Then those of us who believe will live with Him in heaven forever.  Based on if there is a God, then that means unbelievers will be in that burning everlasting place of punishment.  Where would you (or queenofnines, since she asked us about it) be?

What if there is a god and he ends up reincarnating you into a snail? What if there is a god and he throws you into a different dimension that's unexplainable by our reality? What if he gives you 72 virgins? All of these ideas--including heaven and hell-- seem man-made (I know that hell is actually a made-up place created by those same kings of england you mentioned). There are an infinite amount of possibilities in what happens when we die...the thing is is that I don't subscribe to defined ideas because I know that nobody knows for certain. I respect that you guide this variable through faith-- I just find it more wise to look at everyones beliefs and then look at your own--
"So muslims believe that a guy flew a horse to heaven and talked with god for a dozen years!? Ha! That's crazy! But wait...I believe in a liberal jewish carpenter hippy that died for all mankind? Hmm..."
This is pretty much what I did (aside from questioning the other well-known stories) to realize the world is so much bigger than what I knew about it. Does that make any sense or am I just being rude here?

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I don't know how familiar you are with the meaning behind Easter

I do know that story about Jesus...but if you're interested in where the original idea for Easter came from, do a little research on it. Greek origin. It's actually pretty funny on how it evolved into what it is today.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: FuzzyCottonsocks on June 12, 2010, 08:56:05 pm
I think I would be depressed, but would get on with life.  No more prayers at night. I would probably feel more alone and maybe more fearful of death.   

I wasn't depressed when I initially made the Christian --> atheist change.  Probably because it's something I suspected and had ready in the back of my mind for a long time, that this may be all there is (if a person doesn't think about this at some point, they are naive).  I was SHOCKED when I realized I was wrong about god though, because I had truly bought into it all for 5 full years.  My newly ex-Christian self was like, "When I'm dead I'm dead?  Oh well."  I moved on and realized nothing had really changed about my life, other than the lies that I used to believe in regards to someone watching out for me, heaven, etc.

Admittedly, I'm a more emotional person than a logical one. I've also been told I can be a bit on the naive side.  All big fat negatives, especially when it comes to judging a person's character.  Clearly I can't prove God exists.  It all comes down to a feeling in my gut.  Maybe it's God, maybe it's gas.  I did eat beans today. 
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 13, 2010, 05:52:11 am
Clearly I can't prove God exists.  It all comes down to a feeling in my gut.  Maybe it's God, maybe it's gas.  I did eat beans today.  

Haha, well said!  And that's very true.  I guess my thoughts are we know people can have odd feelings during many other times: watching a moving movie, walking around in the dark, and one can even experience the same sort of "devotion" that they would for god at a concert of someone they admire.  

And why believe in something you can't prove?
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: FuzzyCottonsocks on June 13, 2010, 10:22:19 am
Clearly I can't prove God exists.  It all comes down to a feeling in my gut.  Maybe it's God, maybe it's gas.  I did eat beans today.  

Haha, well said!  And that's very true.  I guess my thoughts are we know people can have odd feelings during many other times: watching a moving movie, walking around in the dark, and one can even experience the same sort of "devotion" that they would for god at a concert of someone they admire.  

And why believe in something you can't prove?

All good points.  Then again, lots of things now accepted as fact were not provable when they were first suggested.  Things like the earth being round instead of flat, etc.  The god/gods concept has been around forever though and never been proven. That's what faith is about I guess, believing without seeing.  Though I wonder what makes one god more believable than another.  Like the Christian God vs. the ancient Egyptian gods.  Just an example. I've thought about that more than once.  I'm rambling now.  Sorry.  lol
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 13, 2010, 11:11:02 am
Though I wonder what makes one god more believable than another.  Like the Christian God vs. the ancient Egyptian gods.  Just an example. I've thought about that more than once.

And it's a very good point!  They can't all be right.  Something people don't really think about is the religion they follow LARGELY has to do with where they were born.  If you were born in the Middle East you would feel just as fervently about Allah as Christians do about Yahweh.  Which creates a conflict because both religions say do not worship false gods.  ;)

It is my and many other people's opinion that all religions are wrong and man invented god to explain the unknown (like how there used to be sun gods and lightning gods), to make peace with his mortality, to control people, and so on.  The weird "god" feelings and experiences people have can almost always be justified by the natural world.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on June 13, 2010, 06:01:30 pm
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Just an example. I've thought about that more than once.  I'm rambling now.  Sorry.  lol

Furthest from! You bring up some good points.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: FuzzyCottonsocks on June 13, 2010, 08:33:21 pm
Though I wonder what makes one god more believable than another.  Like the Christian God vs. the ancient Egyptian gods.  Just an example. I've thought about that more than once.

And it's a very good point!  They can't all be right.  Something people don't really think about is the religion they follow LARGELY has to do with where they were born.  If you were born in the Middle East you would feel just as fervently about Allah as Christians do about Yahweh.  Which creates a conflict because both religions say do not worship false gods.  ;)

It is my and many other people's opinion that all religions are wrong and man invented god to explain the unknown (like how there used to be sun gods and lightning gods), to make peace with his mortality, to control people, and so on.  The weird "god" feelings and experiences people have can almost always be justified by the natural world.

This is why I abandoned organized religion.  Most are too political, controlling, and confining for my taste. Man coming up with gods in order to come to terms with the unexplained makes sense. Why I can analyze these things in a semi-logical manner and still be a spiritual person, I can't explain. It's probably due to some undiagnosed mental illness. Somewhat off topic here, but have you heard about the latest Denver airport controversy?  I've heard all sorts of weirdness about that airport, but now they want to put up a huge statue of Anubis to promote some Egyptian exhibit. Passengers hate this idea. They don't want "the Egyptian god of the dead" greeting them at the airport. I would imagine almost all of the people on these planes do not believe in this particular god.  So what's the big deal?  What are they afraid of?  Is it just that he's a representation of death or are they afraid that he's going rip their souls out through their noses? I find it odd that people seem to fear things they supposedly don't believe in.

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Just an example. I've thought about that more than once.  I'm rambling now.  Sorry.  lol

Furthest from! You bring up some good points.

Thank you.  :)
   
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on June 14, 2010, 09:05:43 am
This is why I abandoned organized religion.

That's a huge step forward.   :thumbsup:

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Why I can analyze these things in a semi-logical manner and still be a spiritual person, I can't explain. It's probably due to some undiagnosed mental illness.

Haha, I don't think it's a mental illness!  It's clearly an innate part of us all to wonder about things that are bigger than us.  If one is able to abandon organized religion but still feel spiritual, that is probably the last remnants of wanting a higher figure looking out for us all and/or some kind of afterlife.

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have you heard about the latest Denver airport controversy?

No I hadn't.  That's interesting, thanks for sharing!  Yeah, that's pretty silly that they'd object to something that's merely trying to promote an exhibit.  I guess it goes hand-in-hand with people being weird and superstitious about a lot of different things (like oh no, Anubis is going to crash my plane!).  I'm sure if it were something more Christian-based, most people would be all for it!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: ButterflyWings on August 23, 2010, 09:30:33 am
Awesome topic Queen..

I would have to say I am open either way if not it would not affect me one ounce if so same thing..I live life by my own code and heart..I open my mind and heart to all stances on the subject..

But in the end it is what I want..What feels right to me..I like to question it..Analyze it..But follow is just not me..Fear,cult like or unanswered does not fit in my life...

Fairytales are nice to have hope and belief in but...substance and thought provoking is more fulfilling..I don't really enjoy religion sorry but over my 35 years on this earth I have saw how ugly it can be because of humans..I stand un-labeled learning all about all..

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: amyrouse on August 23, 2010, 01:02:31 pm
1) How would you feel? (depressed, neutral, relieved, etc.)

You know, I don't think it would change all that much for me.  I don't believe the bible is an accurate history of what has happened.  To me, the bible is a book written by flawed men in order to teach morality, kind of like Aesop's fables.  This belief is what keeps me grounded when I start to wonder if there really was a flood or something else to the like.

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2) How do you think it might change your life?

It wouldn't, really.  Honestly.  My morality wouldn't change; my goal of heaven on earth wouldn't change.  This life is the only one we know we have.  If there is something else to come, that's effin awesome.  If there isn't, I'm not setting myself up for disappointment.  I'm living this life to the fullest.  And if the only thing I'm doing wrong is loving g-d, then I guess I didn't really make that monumental of a mistake.  ;)
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: queenofnines on August 30, 2010, 09:54:51 am
I would feel relieved that I didn't have to worry about the final destination of my non-believing friends...I would hug them and say "whew, did you luck out"!

LOL...you know people like to throw around Pascal's Wager a lot, not realizing it only accounts for Christianity as being the right one.  If the Muslims end up being correct, a Christian and an atheist are in the same boat!!   ;D
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on August 30, 2010, 10:47:42 am
I would feel relieved that I didn't have to worry about the final destination of my non-believing friends...I would hug them and say "whew, did you luck out"!

LOL...you know people like to throw around Pascal's Wager a lot, not realizing it only accounts for Christianity as being the right one.  If the Muslims end up being correct, a Christian and an atheist are in the same boat!!   ;D
  If that happens, there's no other group (atheists) I would want in my boat.  (If that christian/atheist boat is going DOWN...I'm not going to be listening to christians judging who's making it sink the quickest.) :thumbsup:

Very funny from both of you, needed a laugh, thanks! :D ;) Love the "who's making it sink the quickest!"
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on August 30, 2010, 02:28:28 pm
I would feel relieved that I didn't have to worry about the final destination of my non-believing friends...I would hug them and say "whew, did you luck out"!

LOL...you know people like to throw around Pascal's Wager a lot, not realizing it only accounts for Christianity as being the right one.  If the Muslims end up being correct, a Christian and an atheist are in the same boat!!   ;D
  If that happens, there's no other group (atheists) I would want in my boat.  (If that christian/atheist boat is going DOWN...I'm not going to be listening to christians judging who's making it sink the quickest.) :thumbsup:
Who's judging now?
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jordandog on August 30, 2010, 03:32:52 pm
jcribb,
I took both of those replies as lighthearted silliness. After all, Sheryl does believe in god, so why is that judgemental?
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on August 30, 2010, 04:46:28 pm
same here, sheryl. after amy's last thread, that has now been locked, there was a lot of frustration built up and carried over.  I apologize.  :thumbsup: :heart:
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Graeth on August 30, 2010, 07:09:01 pm
God is in possession of a cloaking device.
God is a Klingon.
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: Falconer02 on August 30, 2010, 08:43:31 pm
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God is in possession of a cloaking device.
God is a Klingon.

GOD HAS DEFECTIVE PLASMA COILS! HE IS NOT PERFECT!
Title: Re: Serious questions for believers
Post by: jcribb16 on August 31, 2010, 12:52:58 pm
 :cat:  Thank you, Sheryl, for all that.  You are absolutely right.  I have Christian friends so totally involved in the Lord, and then some that are only partially involved.  I have many friends that are not Christians, and we happen to be good friends.  I'll have to keep the duct tape in mind, for possible future use!!! lol!!