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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: amyrouse on July 20, 2010, 05:49:36 pm
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Something I'm having a hard time understanding here...
Why is it that many who believe the Bible isn't 100% the truth call those who don't atheists? I am not an atheist, and I don't believe that everything in the Bible is the cold hard truth.
From what I can understand, the Bible is open to interpretation. My Bible is written in a language that historically didn't use vowels, and therefore can be interpreted thousands of ways. There are stories that are left out of the Bible (i.e. Lilith, the story of Hanukkah, etc.) yet those legends and holidays remain (what do you think a lullaby is?).
...and there are many that have some major things wrong. Example...Jehovah is not g-d's name. The name of g-d is signified by four Hebrew consonants and to aid readers, the vowels from the word "Adonai" meaning "my lord" were transposed on to those four consonants; thus, the pronunciation became "Yehovah." Does that make everything the Jehovah's Witnesses believe incorrect?
I believe firmly that the Bible is a book of lessons that can be learned, but each individual person must read it themselves to determine what those lessons are. Do I believe Moses parted the Red Sea? Hell, no. But I do believe it is important to step forward with conviction before you enter into dangerous territory.
And, most importantly, I believe it is not up to me to "fix" anyone or "save" anyone. I believe g-d does not wish for us to be blindly following a faith because we were scared into it, but to research, read, and make a rational choice as to how to live our lives. I believe wholeheartedly in the golden rule. I wish more people who claim to be following in the footsteps of Jesus (in whom I personally do not believe as a personal savior, but to each their own) would actually live their lives by the example they claim him to have left.
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Why is it that many who believe the Bible isn't 100% the truth call those who don't atheists?
Because it's the Word of God, and if god is supposed to be perfect, why would he give us an imperfect book??
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why would he give us an imperfect book??
An imperfect book written by imperfect men.
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An imperfect book written by imperfect men.
But god is all-powerful. That's the best he could do?
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Personally, I can't believe g-d is all powerful.
Otherwise, if g-d is running the shots, then why is the world in such disarray? Don't try to say it is the devil's doing, because I don't believe in the devil, and besides that, the devil is a moot point if g-d is all powerful. G-d created the devil.
And g-d is faaaaar from perfect.
We are supposed to be created in g-d's image. I honestly can't fathom that if I was created in g-d's image that g-d could be even remotely perfect... since I know that I am far from it. Also, g-d has so many faults, like pride, envy, and greed (having no other g-d's before g-d), wrath (hellfire and the flood to name two), sloth (free will, anyone? G-d doesn't want to control us except through fear), and lust (impregnating a virgin...lol, I'm reaching here.). A little more time and I can think of one to fit gluttony as well...
I agree with you, queen. Honestly, I do. I just can't help but wonder these things. I can't understand why, when given the capacity to think, people don't use this "g-d given gift" and actually think about these things. There is so much that doesn't make sense. And I couldn't explain intelligently why I have faith other than the fact that it feels right to me. I won't get offended, though, when presented with an intelligent argument contrary to my beliefs. Like I've said before...I could be wrong. All I can do is live my life to the best of my ability and have faith that the g-d I believe in has taken notice of that.
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Does that make everything the Jehovah's Witnesses believe incorrect?
I don't rememeber it perfectly, but as far as the name goes, I think it's nothing more than hebrew-to-english pronounciations. Similar to how the name "James" would be pronounced "Hay-meh" in spanish. But yeah, JW's are wrong about a lot of things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
I post this occasionally. I'm not sure if I've shown it to you before. If not, I think you'll get a kick out of it.
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It is very hard to understand the bible and I do not like it when people only quote one thing from the bble like paying your tithes. But as long as you know tha you can not save yourself and that you need a savior then you will be born again through jesus. And it is your choice to sin or not to sin becaue g-d is not looking at your physical body that is going to die and be in bones,but he is more concerned about your spiritual body which will live forever and ever. but try not to sin all th time Hebrews 10:26. And I hope that this helped you
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Personally, I can't believe g-d is all powerful.
Then why call him god? Is that not one of the definitions of a god?
Otherwise, if g-d is running the shots, then why is the world in such disarray? Don't try to say it is the devil's doing, because I don't believe in the devil, and besides that, the devil is a moot point if g-d is all powerful. G-d created the devil.
It's excellent that you recognize evil as being a major flaw. I highly recommend this video because it discusses the problem of evil and the counter-arguments (i.e. "free will") that the religious try to give:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDgiTiyMG_c&playnext_from=TL&videos=YtL4yKID9xI
And g-d is faaaaar from perfect.
Quite obviously! But what is more likely given the state of the world: an "imperfect" god, or no god at all?
We are supposed to be created in g-d's image. I honestly can't fathom that if I was created in g-d's image that g-d could be even remotely perfect... since I know that I am far from it. Also, g-d has so many faults, like pride, envy, and greed (having no other g-d's before g-d), wrath (hellfire and the flood to name two), sloth (free will, anyone? G-d doesn't want to control us except through fear), and lust (impregnating a virgin...lol, I'm reaching here.).
That's an interesting theory you bring up, that we are created in "his image" and that's why he's so incompetent. However, can we really believe that god is powerful enough to create the entire universe and everything in it, but he's not powerful enough to get a hold on humanity (also his creation) and all its problems? Does that make sense? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7oNhL1wCgg&playnext_from=TL&videos=uVPKTIRZOB0)
As for god having "bad human traits" like pride and envy, how does this make the god of the Bible ANY DIFFERENT from the thousands of gods man has invented throughout time that are now labeled as mythology? There were gods that were even more human-like than Yahweh like Zeus, who supposedly threw lightning bolts from the clouds, and yet no one (well, except for a special few) believe in Zeus anymore.
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I think everyone has there own oppinion on religion and for all to each there own whatever makes them happy :)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
I post this occasionally. I'm not sure if I've shown it to you before. If not, I think you'll get a kick out of it.
Ok, that was awesome. This is my favorite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM
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In case you're interested...this is what I'm talking about in reference to the origin of the name "Jehovah."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uYWtBb01G0&feature=PlayList&p=D3B9B2D6788E5F28&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=69
I can say, from studying Hebrew, that I know everything up to 4:30 to be true.
Here is the aleph bet for those who are interested: http://www.jewish-people-unite.com/judaism_hebrew_alphabet.html
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amy,
i came across a website that has a lot of really detailed information. i know you classify yourself as jewish but this website is more about proving the existence of God with science and not so much circled around proving certain aspects of christianity. i see a lot of doubt in your posts about who god is yet you hold to your beliefs with serious doubts as to who you actually claim to be god. if anything you shouldn't be on the fence. know what know without doubt and you will be much happier.
i advised people on another thread to search out truth, be they atheist or christian....don't look for evidence of your belief from a one sided coin. look at both sides and come to a conclusion based on ALL evidence. obviously i came to conclusion there is a god and it is the god of the christian bible.
but here is the website, if you are inclined, i think it is a good read and may answer some questions you have. don't stop there though, look at the opposing side and see if their claims match up to this site :)
http://www.godandscience.org
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Perhaps I haven't been clear.
My belief is that g-d is not active in this world. There is no heaven or hell, only what we create on earth. I have a hard time believing in life after death, but I am still reading on the topic, because I believe non-existence is scarier than hellfire. I believe in a messianic age, not a messiah, and this messianic age is where we create our own peace on earth instead of waiting around for someone to deliver it. I believe the bible is a book of stories written by men and interpreted by men and we all should make our own interpretations. However, should someone decide not to do so, this does not buy them a one way ticket to eternal damnation. Our belief in whether or not g-d exists or whether Jesus is part a threefold idea of a supernatural being holds no bearing on our afterlife. The thing that matters most is how we live and how we treat others...how we ACT, not what we profess. I try to live my life with that in mind.
Hope that clears things up.
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I believe non-existence is scarier than hellfire.
Really? ??? You'd seriously rather be tortured forever than not exist?
Death can only be scary while we're alive. Once it happens, it will no longer be scary. And we all know exactly what it's going to be like: it's going to be just like before we were born.
Which brings up another very good point: if you didn't exist billions of years before your birth, what makes you think you'll exist after?!
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Sherna, I went to that "god and science" website and poked around for a bit. All I saw were a ton of justifications (like oh, god didn't "murder" people, he just killed them!), bad evidence, and wacky claims.
Stuff like this:
"I believe that bipedal primates that existed before Adam and Eve, were just part of the animal kingdom, and were not endowed with the characteristics that make humans distinct from animals."
Ugh. So god just happened to create primates that share 98% of our DNA and hid skulls and skeletons (like Lucy) to confuse scientists. Makes perfect sense!! Also, we're freaking MAMMALS. And mammals are animals!
When you're done with godisimaginary.com, check out http://www.ironchariots.org/ It is a lot more professional looking/sounding than the former and counters all of the classic arguments for god's existence.
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I see the bible as distorted & incomplete.
If you believe the bible you are holding hand is the "true one," you're wrong. For one thing it's incomplete as the men that put it together took out a lot of the real exciting juicy stuff. (Especially pretty much all the great stuff that women did in the bible).
Can you say sexist :bootyshake: For example Adam had 2 wives. The first one was Lilith created equally from the earth same as Adam. When Adam wanted to be on top Lilith didn't. She wanted to be on top they were equals right. Lilith took off after that which i would translate as a quicky divorced out Adam's boring sexist world. Soon, entire eve cut right out adam' s ribs. So, would it be called incest when you marry your own female clone? So, if we come from adam & eve we are all practicing incest marry each other? Wow, the bible is sleazier than any *bleep* soap opera show! When you want passion, sex,betrayal,murder,incest,power,wars,cheating,fighting,love,hate,jealousy,danger,abduction,assassinations,CEO takeovers don't order *bleep*, open the bible. So, no, I don't see the bible as the truth. I see the bible as a weapon. Like a loaded gun. A gun that has been fired so many times, the pages still wet, soaked in blood! How many times had there been wars fight in the the name of god or the bible. Calling all of them holy wars. There's NOTHING HOLY about WAR.
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Tantricia--
(http://fireintheocean.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/holy-bible-warning.jpg)
Ok, that was awesome. This is my favorite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM
Yeah I love that one too.
In case you're interested...this is what I'm talking about in reference to the origin of the name "Jehovah."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uYWtBb01G0&feature=PlayList&p=D3B9B2D6788E5F28&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=69
I put this on my favorites bar and will check it out soon. Cool find.
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When you want passion, sex,betrayal,murder,incest,power,wars,cheating,fighting,love,hate,jealousy,danger,abduction,assassinations,CEO takeovers don't order *bleep*, open the bible.
Hahaha! Awesomeness x infinity. ;D
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Perhaps I haven't been clear.
My belief is that g-d is not active in this world. There is no heaven or hell, only what we create on earth. I have a hard time believing in life after death, but I am still reading on the topic, because I believe non-existence is scarier than hellfire. I believe in a messianic age, not a messiah, and this messianic age is where we create our own peace on earth instead of waiting around for someone to deliver it. I believe the bible is a book of stories written by men and interpreted by men and we all should make our own interpretations. However, should someone decide not to do so, this does not buy them a one way ticket to eternal damnation. Our belief in whether or not g-d exists or whether Jesus is part a threefold idea of a supernatural being holds no bearing on our afterlife. The thing that matters most is how we live and how we treat others...how we ACT, not what we profess. I try to live my life with that in mind.
Hope that clears things up.
There is so much that doesn't make sense. And I couldn't explain intelligently why I have faith other than the fact that it feels right to me
I suggested the website to you based on this statement you made in an earlier post. And the title of the thread was a question, not a statement.....so I assumed you started the thread with the intention of searching for an answer to that question. You haven't cleared anything up because you state a belief and then counter with a statement saying you could be wrong and you don't know for sure .....this implied confusion and not confidence in your belief. So my post was to try and help you find information to questions you may have. No offense was intended and it's not an attempt to 'bring you to Christ'
It's up to you whether you look up the information or not, it will not effect me.
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...a statement saying you could be wrong and you don't know for sure ...
This is the only truth I can say I know 100%. No one knows who is right or who is wrong.
The original post wasn't made for clarification on my religion. I was just wondering why people automatically assume that those who don't accept the bible as truth are atheists. Everything said afterward was for clarification on where I personally stand.
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Really? ??? You'd seriously rather be tortured forever than not exist?
Dude, Queen, seriously...there are folks who are totally into torture... :thumbsup:
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...a statement saying you could be wrong and you don't know for sure ...
This is the only truth I can say I know 100%. No one knows who is right or who is wrong.
The original post wasn't made for clarification on my religion. I was just wondering why people automatically assume that those who don't accept the bible as truth are atheists. Everything said afterward was for clarification on where I personally stand.
well i don't think i make that assumption about people. it's possible i have on this forum whilst in a discussion with atheists and someone chimes in with an agreement with an atheist, i may have made that assumption.
but i would like to point out here that, you are a walking contradiction.
you say in one statement that you "can't explain intelligently why you have faith....."
and then say the only thing you know 100% is that "no one knows who is right or wrong"
that's not faith, it's doubt in what you claim to believe. and also i'm curious as to why you don't put the 'o' in god??
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Sherna, I went to that "god and science" website and poked around for a bit. All I saw were a ton of justifications (like oh, god didn't "murder" people, he just killed them!), bad evidence, and wacky claims.
Stuff like this:
"I believe that bipedal primates that existed before Adam and Eve, were just part of the animal kingdom, and were not endowed with the characteristics that make humans distinct from animals."
Ugh. So god just happened to create primates that share 98% of our DNA and hid skulls and skeletons (like Lucy) to confuse scientists. Makes perfect sense!! Also, we're freaking MAMMALS. And mammals are animals!
When you're done with godisimaginary.com, check out http://www.ironchariots.org/ It is a lot more professional looking/sounding than the former and counters all of the classic arguments for god's existence.
yes God killed people. he killed people who were "wicked". he never killed people without just cause (murder) and he always sent someone to warn people of impending judgment so as to give them the chance to repent. and i would think that if lets say...i dunno...someone came into your home and very gruesomely murdered your husband :sad1: you would consider the people who committed such a heinous and malicious crime to be worthy of death. you would probably personally want to be at their execution to watch them fry. people who are wicked and don't repent get judged by a merciful God who at least gives them a chance to repent.
would you give those people who murdered your husband mercy? if they came to you and said they were sorry and would never kill again, would you forgive them?? probably not, but God would because he is not just a God of judgment but a God of mercy.
As for Lucy
Australopithecus afarensis, dear old Lucy was said to be the “missing link” of human evolution. Bones scattered miles apart became the latest scheme to boost the concept of evolution. Lucy was thought to have walked upright, despite the evidence from CAT scans of the organ of balance that indicated it did not. Now there is molecular evidence that show Australopithecines are not human ancestors but chimp ancestors! That means that man came from upright walking and ground living and into the trees with chimps walking.
New Scientist 153(2075:18, 29 March 1997.[/b]
i am not quite through with godisimaginary but i did visit the site ironchariots for a little while. i still haven't visited the one you posted earlier but i saved the link so i could get to it later. :)
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I believe non-existence is scarier than hellfire.
Really? ??? You'd seriously rather be tortured forever than not exist?
Death can only be scary while we're alive. Once it happens, it will no longer be scary. And we all know exactly what it's going to be like: it's going to be just like before we were born.
Which brings up another very good point: if you didn't exist billions of years before your birth, what makes you think you'll exist after?!
I feel the same way amyrouse does about non-exitence. I'd happily go to hell over non-exitence
Furthermore, I don't think the "before you were born" is comparable whatsoever. It is impossible to correctly imagine what non-existence would be like. It is a place that it isn't a place, where there is no mind to imagine or compare. There are no dreams, nor colors, nor time. There is no world going on without you. It is a "nothing" where there is no such concept for nothing to be.
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Why is it so hard to beleive what the bible says is true? There are places on this earth that most of us have never seen in person. But yet because we see it on televsion or someone we know tell us about a place or thing that we beleive them right away.Yet we have not really seen it for ourselves.So think about that before you have your doubts about the Bible.Or is it some of us may find out the truth about ourselves. That we may not like and find it hard to accept.
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When it comes to the bible I feel it is a story..Truth well I really cannot believe that..I consider myself no religion.
Atheists views make sense,Wicca makes sense..Other than that other religions seem very umm..wishy washy..
I believe love all gay,straight,blah blah blah..So sins make no sense to me cause no one is free from sin..
Everyone thinks of something sinful or has done something deemed as sinful..
Sorry got lost lmao..So no Bible is no truth to me its a story a man on some mind altering drugs started and a imperfect closed minded person finished.
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he never killed people without just cause (murder) and he always sent someone to warn people of impending judgment so as to give them the chance to repent.
This sounds real good until I whip out some unjustified killing from the Bible:
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24)
So 42 little kids were brutally ripped to shreds just because they made fun of someone who was bald!! Don't say it wasn't god; it's quite obvious the "moral" of this story is don't make fun of a prophet or god will allow a whole mess of children to be consumed by bears!
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36)
Does this make ANY flippin' sense? So a dude doesn't want to be violent and hit a prophet and god thinks the "just" punishment for this understandable "disobedience" should be death by a lion??
Then we have all the people god instructs US to kill for ridiculous reasons:
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)
Note the key word ALL. So if your parents beat you, molested you, raped you, left you for dead on the street...don't ever say a bad word about them or you're worthy of DEATH in god's eyes.
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
Yes, your sex life is THAT important to god.
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death. (Exodus 31:12-15)
Screw putting food on the table for your family. If a man works on the wrong day of the week, he deserves to die!
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)
If your dad did something bad, you deserve to die just in case you wind up like him.
Merciless killing instructed by god:
Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Ezekiel 9:5)
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18)
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29)
This is just a TASTE of the god you worship! Still think it was always "justified"?
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I wonder how these people treated other children who still believed in Santa Claus when they found out he was fake? They must of been the ones saying you are stupid for thinking santa is real and nananana.
That's a very childish "point" to bring up. I, for one, was NOT one of the children who teased the other kids about it, but this is not the issue. People who believe in Santa aren't trying to interfere with out legislature or flying planes into buildings. To compare the two shows the weakness of your arguing abilities.
I don't think the "before you were born" is comparable whatsoever. It is impossible to correctly imagine what non-existence would be like.
Well the point is that we've all already experienced non-existence for an infinite amount of time! Just because we can't fully wrap our brains around what it's going to be like to NOT have a brain does not mean we don't already have experience being dead. ;) Anytime you are unconscious you are in a state similar to death! Because your brain is where it's at, baby!
So, you know, EVERY SINGLE NIGHT when you pass out and can't remember it and are unconscious for 8 or so hours...that is like death training. Going unconscious every night doesn't scare most people because they trust that they'll wake up in a few hours...the fact that we do wake up and can reflect on when we were semi-nonexistent the previous night is kind of freaky, eh? ;)
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How do we know we didn't exist before we were born? Shoot, I don't remember being a baby, let alone what happend before that or if I was someone else or somewhere else as a spirit.
Uh, are you Mormon or something? lol
So before you were born you were chillin' with god on the clouds and he's like, "Elissa, yo! Want to go to Earth?"
You: "Yeah, that sounds fun!"
God: "Cool! Is 1982 convenient for you?"
You: "Yeah, sounds like a fine time to be born!"
God: "Alright then! I have to warn you, though, part of the deal of being allowed to go to Earth is that I must wipe your memory of ever knowing that you used to live with me. Going to Earth is like a test, see. You may never find me again, and then I'll have to torture you in hell forever. Can you accept that risk?"
Well I guess you said yes, because here you are! Makes perfect sense!!
In Reality Land, non-existent brain = non-existent you. And your brain has to develop quite a lot once you have one, which is why you can't remember being a baby.
There are places on this earth that most of us have never seen in person. But yet because we see it on televsion or someone we know tell us about a place or thing that we beleive them right away.Yet we have not really seen it for ourselves.So think about that before you have your doubts about the Bible.
This is not a valid argument, sorry! Anyone can travel to Australia and see for themselves that it exists!!! Not so with any of the claims of the Bible.
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queen, i realize i'm not going to convince you so i'm trying to avoid a bunch of back and forth. there is explanation for everything you posted pretty much on the website i mentioned earlier. if you disagree with it or want to call it weak justifications. that's alright :) and yes i still think that God is justified in any actions he does, because i believe and know my God to be a loving and holy and just and righteous God.
i'm sorry but i haven't found anything that is powerful enough to disprove the God with whom i have a personal relationship.
He is And I heard as it were the voice of many angels In the beginning in Genesis 1 and 1
Wonderful Glorious And the beasts and elders round about the throne God created the heavens and the earth
Holy and Righteous And the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000 And the earth was without form and void
Victorious Conqueror And thousands and thousands And by the spoken word of God
Triumphant and Mighty Saying with a loud voice God created the whole universe and the world that we live in
Healer Deliverer Worthy is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the earth The trees that we see outside came forth by the word of God
Shield and Defense To receive Glory and Honor and Riches and Blessing John Chapter One says "in the beginning was the word..
Strong Tower and My Best Friend And every creature which is in the heavens The word was with God and word was God"
Omnipotent, Omnipresent And every creature on the earth and underneath the sea Verse 14 says "and that word was made flesh and it dwelt among us"
Soon Coming King And such as are in sea heard I saying And I'm glad to tell you that I KNOW WHAT HIS NAME IS
Alpha Omega Blessing and Glory and Honor and Strength and Dominion and Power HIS NAME IS JESUS
Lord of Everything Be unto the Lamb who sits upon the throne Forever! and Ever! and Ever and Ever!! JESUS THOU ART GOD
Holy Holy Holy is His name!
I am NOT ashamed of the gospel and although I love you as the precious person you are :heart: and I wish I could just hug you so you know I'm sincere. These words I type are embedded deep within me and no matter what materials you have presented to me and I have willingly and without prejudgment read the information, I haven't been shaken. The truth is not just in my knowledge but in my heart and I have confidence in whom I serve!
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yes i still think that God is justified in any actions he does, because i believe and know my God to be a loving and holy and just and righteous God.
How about the story of the 32,000 virgins?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6hZlZ8WfUg&videos=fQQgg_VTalo
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." – Isaac Asimov ==> happened to me <==
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins
I'll probably start another thread at some point about "personal relationships" with god. Because I honestly don't get it.
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Something I'm having a hard time understanding here...
Why is it that many who believe the Bible isn't 100% the truth call those who don't atheists? I am not an atheist, and I don't believe that everything in the Bible is the cold hard truth.
From what I can understand, the Bible is open to interpretation. My Bible is written in a language that historically didn't use vowels, and therefore can be interpreted thousands of ways. There are stories that are left out of the Bible (i.e. Lilith, the story of Hanukkah, etc.) yet those legends and holidays remain (what do you think a lullaby is?).
...and there are many that have some major things wrong. Example...Jehovah is not g-d's name. The name of g-d is signified by four Hebrew consonants and to aid readers, the vowels from the word "Adonai" meaning "my lord" were transposed on to those four consonants; thus, the pronunciation became "Yehovah." Does that make everything the Jehovah's Witnesses believe incorrect?
I believe firmly that the Bible is a book of lessons that can be learned, but each individual person must read it themselves to determine what those lessons are. Do I believe Moses parted the Red Sea? Hell, no. But I do believe it is important to step forward with conviction before you enter into dangerous territory.
And, most importantly, I believe it is not up to me to "fix" anyone or "save" anyone. I believe g-d does not wish for us to be blindly following a faith because we were scared into it, but to research, read, and make a rational choice as to how to live our lives. I believe wholeheartedly in the golden rule. I wish more people who claim to be following in the footsteps of Jesus (in whom I personally do not believe as a personal savior, but to each their own) would actually live their lives by the example they claim him to have left.
yes i still think that God is justified in any actions he does, because i believe and know my God to be a loving and holy and just and righteous God.
How about the story of the 32,000 virgins?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6hZlZ8WfUg&videos=fQQgg_VTalo
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." – Isaac Asimov ==> happened to me <==
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins
I'll probably start another thread at some point about "personal relationships" with god. Because I honestly don't get it.
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there is a lot of rebuttal for this from this website http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/586
for the sake of forum decorum i will try to post the most relevant material in an attempt to explain Numbers 31. but i recommend you visit the site and read the entire passage.
The first five books of the Bible are full of stories of the conquest of Caanan. But one story that sometimes stands out in the minds of skeptics is the one found in Numbers 31, where God seemingly gives no reason for killing defenseless women and male children. In addition, it has been suggested that the young girls mentioned in the account were spared so that the Israelite men could rape them. Such accusations are baseless, however, as is evident when they are viewed in light of other related passages.
The most widely questioned section of Numbers 31 is verses 17-18: “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” To understand this passage, one must realize that Numbers 25 is the “prequel” to the events recorded in Numbers 31. Numbers 25 tells how the Midianites, specifically the women, led the Israelites astray into worshiping the Baal or Peor. The Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He struck them with a plague. The plague ended when Phinehas, the grandson of Aaron, killed an Israelite man and the Midianite woman he brought into his family (Numbers 25:6-9). The relations with Midianite women were in direct violation of God’s commands in Deuteronomy 7:3-4: “[N]either shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly.”
As a result of these events, God instructed the Israelites to “Vex the Midianites, and smite them; for they vex you with their wiles, wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of the prince of Midian, their sister, who was slain on the day of the plague in the matter of Peor” (Numbers 25:17-18). When, in Numbers 31, the army brought back the women, it was in direct violation to God’s order in Numbers 25 to destroy the Midianites, who would lead the Israelites into apostasy.
But how can we explain the destruction of the young boys? Why were they not spared along with the young girls?
Those inhabitants were destroyed because of their wickedness (Deuteronomy 9:4; 18:9-14). They were so evil that their Creator no longer could abide their corruption. That they had numerous opportunities to repent is evident from the prophetic books (Nineveh did repent, for example, and for a time stayed the day of destruction). Complaining about Jehovah’s order to destroy innocent children is a vain gesture when one realizes that the children were spared an even worse fate of being reared as slaves under the domination of sin. Instead of having to endure the scourge of a life of immorality and wickedness, these innocents were ushered early into the bliss of Paradise. If the male children had been allowed to mature, they most likely would have followed the pagan ways of their forefathers, and eventually would have taken vengeance on the Israelites. Killing the males not only prevented them from falling into the same abominable sins as their parents, but also kept Israel from having to battle them later.
I know this was a lengthy response but I wanted to get all the pertinent information posted here for people who don't bother to visit the links posted.
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"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." – Richard Dawkins
According to Richard Dawkins, Yahweh, the God of the Bible, is "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."1 Absent from any of Dawkins' description of God is His mercy. People tend to think of the God of the Old Testament as cruel and unforgiving, whereas the God of the New Testament is seen as the God of mercy, who sent Jesus to atone for the sins of the world. The Old Testament prophets were always warning the people about the wrath of God should they stray from the path of righteousness. However, what is usually ignored by atheists is God's mercy for those who did repent of doing evil. Yes, God judged many people groups, but not before warning them.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/mercy_of_god.html
for anyone who is interested in more about Richard Dawkins you can visit http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/the_god_delusion.html
Richard Dawkins has stepped out of his usual area of expertise, biological evolution, and has attempted to become atheism's greatest apologist. Unfortunately, like so many other atheists, he picks out the easy targets with blinders fully engaged, to avoid having to deal with any serious challenges to his beliefs. Yes, I did use the "b" word, since Dawkins actively promotes the belief that there is no God (hence the title) and that atheists should "come out" of the closet and exhibit abundant "atheist pride." Dawkins seems to be "preaching to the choir," since the vast majority of his apologetics is either old and refuted or strawman in nature. This is a series of articles debunking the atheistic apologetics of The God Delusion. Click on each chapter link for more details.
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It's one thing for a Christian to have not read their Bible or only know the "good bits", but what saddens me more is the Christians who ARE aware of the evil in the Bible and still walk away with the conclusion that it's okay. :'(
So you must think natural disasters are today's equivalent of god's wrath, huh? Funny how we now have the technology to track some of them, though, and escape (or at least prepare for) said wrath.
Surely the world is far more evil today in god's eyes than 4,000 years ago? Why do large parts of the world remain relatively unharmed then -- surely they are full of wickedness too?
From the Apologetics website: "Complaining about Jehovah's order to destroy innocent children is a vain gesture when one realizes that the children were spared an even worse fate of being reared as slaves under the domination of sin. Instead of having to endure the scourge of a life of immorality and wickedness, these innocents were ushered early into the bliss of Paradise."
So I guess this is saying that the mothers who drown their 5 kids in a lake are justified, since those kids get a free pass to heaven and all? Again, I don't see why the religious are against abortion then.
As for the justifications for the rape thing, they are kidding themselves if they think the 32,000 virgins went untouched, as god clearly advocates rape repeatedly in the Bible in other passages:
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion [force]. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)
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the people who read their bible and study it for the purpose of finding God and his goodness, God will be faithful to reveal His truth. the people that are aware of the evil in the bible are aware that it is evil perpetuated by men not God. evil is not okay and the bible clearly states it.
Daniel C. Dennett, Professor of Philosophy and Co-Director of the Center for Cognitive Studies at Tufts University, says that if God is responsible for the good things, He must be responsible for the bad also....
If Dennett knew anything about geology, he would have known that plate tectonics (the process that produces earthquakes and volcanoes) is absolutely required for advanced life to exist on our planet. Earthquakes are caused by the movement of continental plates that float on a molten mantel. Without the mantel, the earth's Van-Allen radiation shield and the earth's magnetosphere would not exist and advanced life could not exist on the land due to deadly solar radiation. In addition, tectonic activity is required to prevent all land from being washed into the oceans through the water cycle, which is required for all life. All these concepts are developed more thoroughly on our natural evil page.
So, why did all those people have to die in that earthquake?
Natural or moral evil?
As a lifelong resident of California, my first question was why all those people died in Haiti during a 7.0 earthquake. I have personally survived several Southern California earthquakes of magnitude 6.6 or greater. In fact, for each of the California earthquakes over the last century, the death toll has been, at most 115 - in the Long Beach earthquake of 1933. Most of those deaths were caused by building collapse due to poor construction standards, which resulted in the rewriting of California's construction codes. Likewise, Haiti has virtually no building codes and construction has been done to minimize costs at the expense of safety.6 The only multi-story building to survive the earthquake unscathed was the American Embassy, which was constructed according to U.S. codes. So, the vast majority of deaths caused in the earthquake in Haiti were probably due to moral evil (i.e., greed), rather than natural evil.
For example, just 6 weeks later, an earthquake in Chile, measuring 8.8 (500 times more powerful than the earth quake in Haiti), caused only a few hundred deaths. However, having suffered from the largest recorded earthquake in 1960 (9.5), Chile had instituted strict building codes that prevented the kind of damage seen in Haiti.
that is only one example taken from the website which i have been quoting from about God and Natural Disasters.
So I guess this is saying that the mothers who drown their 5 kids in a lake are justified, since those kids get a free pass to heaven and all? Again, I don't see why the religious are against abortion then.
No the mother was evil for murdering...but God did not see those babies deaths as tragedies because babies go to heaven (the mother's actions were a tragedy because of it's sinful nature)
And as for the scripture quote from Deuteronomy
Let us consider the facts of the matter:
To begin with, we may note Deuteronomy 20:10 states, "When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace."
Assuming that war ensues, once it is over they were to "remain outside the camp seven days; whoever has killed any person, and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day. Purify every garment, everything made of leather, everything woven of goats' hair, and everything made of wood" (Numbers 31:19-20).
This ensures the health of soldier and war captives.
In the case of the women mentioned in the texts noted above, if a man was interested in one of them he was to:
Provide her with housing.
Allow her one month to mourn.
Then they may get married.
And if they later divorce, she was to go free and not be mistreated (see Deuteronomy 21:10-14).
No rape at all anywhere. Rather, cleansing after a war, the provision of a home, time to mourn, marriage and if need be, freedom and protection from mistreatment.
Let me state that as disturbing as the atheists find the cherry-picked-Bible-pull-quotes, I find it very disturbing that they read these texts and infer rape.
They are inventing the idea of rape and reading it into the text (this is eisegesis and is hermeneutically inappropriate
http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/does-bible-command-rape
As for Zechariah 14:1-2
If you read the passage carefully, Zechariah is prophesying to Jerusalem about a battle that is forth coming....he is prophesying what the enemies of Jerusalem are going to do to their nation. God is not condoning it, Zechariah is warning of future hardships. Nowhere does it say that God is commanding the "ravishing" of women and the ravishing was being foretold as being done by enemies of God against God's own people.
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Thank you for all of your hard work, Sherna! :)
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you're an incredible person and regardless of our disagreements on these things i am blessed to know you :wave:
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i want to note here a good website that helps with scripture interpretation. it helps in understanding at least the bible from a christians perspective vs atheists or non believers perspective.
it is beneficial if you want to use a scripture as a reference but don't want to read an entire chapter or book and still get and understanding the the peoples and culture that the scripture is referencing too. anyone is susceptible to misinterpretation but you already know an atheists interpretation so i think it's worth knowing the christians interpretation so you can make a decision based on the two sides.
of course interpretations vary with doctrine but you won't find a doctrine that thinks God is the type of God Richard Dawkins describes so it will give a general interpretation that gives an acceptable idea of the average christian interpretation.
http://www.bibletrack.org/
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A friend of mine came across this-
1 Timothy 2:11-12
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” -Paul
So all of you bible-humping women posting in this thread need to realize this is a man's world! SHUT UP! SUBMIT! OBEY! Only I can teach in this thread! Because I am.....the man.
Seriously though, it's things like these that I get a kick out of-- people either skim over these verses or find them and then go "Oh! But they translated it wrong!". They'll even go as far as to pick it apart word-for-word and then rebuild it to mean whatever they want it to mean. It's extremely convenient. I would find it quite a burden for a woman to practice this in our culture. You know you don't have to follow it. Just as you do not have to follow a lot of the bogus laws and philosophies in the bible. Be open-minded. Be free. If you believe it because it's in the bible and it's the truth, walk the walk and get back in the kitchen.
So, the vast majority of deaths caused in the earthquake in Haiti were probably due to moral evil (i.e., greed), rather than natural evil.
I think this guy does not realize he comes from a greedy capitalist country. And yet he compares their 'greedy' standards to ours. Which brings me to this conclusion--
For example, just 6 weeks later, an earthquake in Chile, measuring 8.8 (500 times more powerful than the earth quake in Haiti), caused only a few hundred deaths. However, having suffered from the largest recorded earthquake in 1960 (9.5), Chile had instituted strict building codes that prevented the kind of damage seen in Haiti.
Scientific studies + natural disaster lessons = greater defense against natural disasters. We're on our own. That's really all there is to it.
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If Dennett knew anything about geology, he would have known that plate tectonics (the process that produces earthquakes and volcanoes) is absolutely required for advanced life to exist on our planet.
I feel this is a really weak justification for a natural phonemena. God could just snap his fingers and provide whatever kind of "benefit" that this statement is claiming earthquakes provide. Why does god continually chose methods that can be explained without him? It would be like us discovering how lightning works naturally but still persist in attributing it to Thor.
the vast majority of deaths caused in the earthquake in Haiti were probably due to moral evil (i.e., greed), rather than natural evil.
This is absolutely shameful, author dude. Most citizens don't know how to build buildings, you know. So 200,000+ innocent people should die/suffer simply because they were unlucky enough to be born/live in a country with poor safety codes? Yeah, that's fair.
No the mother was evil for murdering...but God did not see those babies deaths as tragedies because babies go to heaven (the mother's actions were a tragedy because of it's sinful nature)
Why is it not a sin when god murders...er, "kills" innocent children? The true tragedy is those 5 kids were each deprived of their one and only life.
Let us consider the facts of the matter:
To begin with, we may note Deuteronomy 20:10 states, "When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace."
What can an atheist say to someone who believes god was justified in killing millions of people because he apparently "gave them a chance to repent"? I think you're misled, and I don't see how your god is any different than Allah or any other wrath-filled deity that primitive man has come up with to explain the world.
No rape at all anywhere. Rather, cleansing after a war, the provision of a home, time to mourn, marriage and if need be, freedom and protection from mistreatment.
What about what the woman wants in all of this? It is still a FORCED MARRIAGE. What if she didn't want anything to do with the ugly thug? This is one of the many reasons Yahweh gets labeled as sexist.
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So all of you bible-humping women posting in this thread need to realize this is a man's world! SHUT UP! SUBMIT! OBEY! Only I can teach in this thread! Because I am.....the man.
...If you believe it because it's in the bible and it's the truth, walk the walk and get back in the kitchen.
:notworthy: :notworthy: Aahahaha! Well apparently Jesus Camp tries to justify it my saying Paul was only referring to one particular woman...which is a lie because if you read the whole chapter, it's quite clear that he's not speaking to anyone else. As a Christian, I always wondered whenever I saw the pastor's wife preaching how she could justify doing such a thing... Also you forgot the last line of that verse:
"Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." (1 Timothy 2:15)
Sammiches AND babies! Don't forget the babies!!
Really, I don't waste my time with all this God stuff and Bible stuff and I just live my life.
O really...? You're not a True Christian (TM) then and you're headed for hell. Their words, not mine. ;)
I can live my life like there is a God, it does make everything seem everlasting and beautiful.
Life is MORE beautiful when it's not reduced to a magical sky being zapping everything here.
I still believe I will be swept off my feet by prince charming and ride off into the sunset on his horse (car) after being married and live happily ever after.
Sorry, that's never going to happen either. Women expecting a fairytale with their marriage is why people get divorced.
Why take that from me? Dare to dream.
We're not trying to take that from you. However, that kind of impossible thinking does have negative consequences. People are already living their lives without a god, they just trick themselves into thinking they aren't.
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On "keeping silent in church" - Women are more verbal than men, and when they get together, they tend to move from subject to subject. In the synagogues, the women were segregated from the men. If they had any questions on the worship or the teachings, they would have had to shout them over to the men, or discuss them among themselves, which would have resulted in an inability to maintain order. In addition, Paul emphasizes that his rules for church are given so that everything would be "done in a fitting and orderly way." (1 Corinthians 14:40)39 Disorderly communication, such as uninterrupted speaking in tongues, was also prohibited.40
On "not being permitted to teach" - Some interpret this passage to mean that women should never teach in the assembled church. However, commentators point out that Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching. Paul's commended co-worker, Priscilla, taught Apollos, the great preacher (Acts 18:24-26).41 In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of authority in the church. Phoebe worked in the church (Romans 16:1).8 Mary, Tryphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord's workers (Romans 16:6, 12).8 Paul was very likely prohibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from teaching. To understand these verses (Ephesians 2:9-15), we must understand the situation in which Paul and Timothy worked. In first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study. When Paul said that women should learn in quietness and full submission, he was offering them an amazing new opportunity. Paul did not want the Ephesian women to teach because they didn't yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. Evidently, the women were especially susceptible to the false teachings (2 Timothy 3:1-9), because they did not yet have enough Biblical knowledge to discern the truth. In addition, some women were apparently flaunting their new-found Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing (1 Timothy 2:9). Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case, women) into a position of leadership who was not yet mature in the faith (1 Timothy 3:6). The same principle applies to churches today.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sexism.html#n16
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It is distressing that natural disasters are often termed “acts of God” while no “credit” is given to God for years, decades, or even centuries of peaceful weather. God created the whole universe and the laws of nature (Genesis 1:1). Most natural disasters are a result of these laws at work. Hurricanes, typhoons, and tornados are the results of divergent weather patterns colliding. Earthquakes are the result of the earth’s plate structure shifting. A tsunami is caused by an underwater earthquake.
In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation.We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur
God is good! Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people who are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray, and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies (Romans 8:28)
http://www.gotquestions.org/natural-disasters.html
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Why is it not a sin when god murders...er, "kills" innocent children? The true tragedy is those 5 kids were each deprived of their one and only life.
So you think it better that the children survive, parent less, homeless, without food, and without a way to care for themselves? I prefer God's mercy in taking these children to heaven where there is no more suffering and pain.
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What can an atheist say to someone who believes god was justified in killing millions of people because he apparently "gave them a chance to repent"? I think you're misled, and I don't see how your god is any different than Allah or any other wrath-filled deity that primitive man has come up with to explain the world.
So you think the people that God destroyed should have been left without judgment while burning their sons and daughters in sacrifices to other Gods?("You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31))
Or maybe you think homosexual gang rape and greed should go unpunished. Ezekiel 16:49 calls Sodom arrogant, overfed and unconcerned;they did not help the poor and needy.
Genesis 19:5 They called to Lot "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them"
The whole town saw the coming of strangers as a chance for homosexual gang rape. And Abraham asked God from a 50 count to a 10 count....if he found 10 righteous people in Sodom would God destroy it and God said no. No such 10 people existed. The few who were innocent were warned in time to flee so they would not suffer the judgment.
Also your list of scriptures that you try to portray as God being a merciless killer of innocents and children, you haven't studied the scriptures and biblical history.
one example you gave in 2Kings 2:23-24. The correct translation of the word "children" is originally used in a form of Hebrew that would indicate rather that they were young adults...they Mocked him — With great petulance and vehemency, as the word signifies; deriding both his person and ministry, and that from a profane contempt of the true religion, and a passionate love to that idolatry which they knew he opposed. Go up — Go up into heaven, whither thou pretendest Elijah is gone. Why didst not thou accompany thy friend and master to heaven? Bald-head - So they mock his natural infirmity, which is a great sin. The repetition shews their heartiness and earnestness, that it was no sudden slip of their tongue, but a scoff proceeding from a rooted impiety and hatred of God and his prophets.
What about what the woman wants in all of this? It is still a FORCED MARRIAGE. What if she didn't want anything to do with the ugly thug? This is one of the many reasons Yahweh gets labeled as sexist.
Firstly ALL marriages were arranged in cultures represented in the bible. The women of God's chosen people had more rights and consideration than the surrounding nations that worshiped idols. If you study the people of biblical times you will find this to be true. But I'm guessing you think the women should have been left alone to flee to another nation where she would be put into servitude and more probably prostitution, rather than have the conquering people offer her a home and marriage where she would be taken care of?? You're trying to take the society of today and supplant it into the cultures of people who lived in a completely different society. Thus God's instructions to his people on how women should be treated. His people were set apart to live holy lives and were set with strict instructions to make them different then the other nations of the world at the time. But if you are looking for God to be evil in these scriptures then you haven't opened yourself to even the possibility that God is a loving God.
The book of Proverbs (which records the wisdom of Solomon) describes the ideal wife in its last chapter.14 She is, by no means, a weak woman who grovels at the feet of her husband. Instead, she takes charge over the care and needs of her family, and, in addition, the needs of the poor. She also manages her servants. In addition, she maintains her own business and from her own earnings buys land and plants vineyards. She is described as being wise, strong, and dignified, yet able to laugh. She is praised by her husband and children, who appreciate her hard work and commitment.
There are many strong women of the bible that God used...Deborah, Esther, Ruth. Jesus showed no domination over women but shocked his own disciples by even speaking to a woman (john 4:9)
In the book of Ephesians, this love is to be "just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." Such a love is not one that dominates and subjugates another person, but a self-sacrificing love that will give up its own life for another's. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..Ephesians 5:25
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)37
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What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur
God is good! Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people who are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray, and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies
Talk about tough love! I heard Pat Robertson saying the same thing on The 700 Club: "There was a little girl who lost everything, her school was flooded away...praise Jesus that we can deliver aide to these people and show them Christian love." I was like, Is he serious?! God has to make things so freaking bad, because us scummy sinners simply wouldn't "get it" if there was less evil in the world??
So you think it better that the children survive, parent less, homeless, without food, and without a way to care for themselves?
So there were no compassionate people back in Biblical times who could have adopted these children?
So you think the people that God destroyed should have been left without judgment while burning their sons and daughters in sacrifices to other Gods?
I don't doubt that it happened; I do doubt that there is a god who was jealous about it. As for people burning their kids...not cool...but this type of cruelty has been common throughout history for a variety of wacked reasons. It's lessened today (at least in America) not because god has intervened to stop it, but because we've evolved as a people and realized that doing such barbaric things is not conducive to a happy, healthy society.
Also your list of scriptures that you try to portray as God being a merciless killer of innocents and children, you haven't studied the scriptures and biblical history.
No Scripture study is required for god's greatest flaw: hell. This is what your godandscience website says:
"So why doesn't God make everyone into perfect beings and allow them all into heaven? It would actually be more cruel if God were to do this, since many people prefer hell to the alternative (complete submission to God)."
This is the biggest load of crock! Many people prefer to be burned and tortured forever?! Is this author sane?? No, I would NOT prefer to be burned and tortured forever, thanks (nevermind the little problem of how I will be able to feel pain without nerve endings, being dead and all). If I really believed such a place existed, you can bet your communion wafer that I'd be next in line to kiss god's behind. Because I'm not a masochist. :thumbsup:
"All the people who end up going to hell will have done so because they actually prefer hell to being forced into the presence of God for all eternity. People like to live in their favorite sins and answer to no one else. They know that if they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior that God will want them to change their lives and they might have to give up some of their autonomy."
Ugh, ugh, ugh. Lies and propaganda galore right here. What these sentences are essentially saying is that all people who reject god are drug-dealing, baby-killing, lying, stealing, raping sluts. Or in shorthand: BAD people. That's all you need to know, Christians. An atheist might claim their lack of belief in god is due to insufficient evidence and common sense, but let's face it, that's really just code for: LET ME SIN!!! ::)
"At this time in history, there is more evidence demonstrating the existence of God than at any time in the past."
Quite the contrary.
"Although the gift is "free," it will cost you your sin, selfishness, and pride. Since none of these character traits are allowed into heaven, those who insist upon holding onto these traits cannot enter into heaven, but must be separated from God in a place called hell. Therefore, those who go to hell do so voluntarily, preferring hell to complete submission to a holy and just God."
More lies and lack of common sense. I have some good videos on this "free gift" business:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rwioe1SGkQ&videos=OxmtWfAVQeA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E&videos=nwW9EDeluPQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGkgmU9vG_o&videos=IJUnLYU4KGg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68&videos=dHxwxxveNVk
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God doesn't make things bad. He made the universe subject to physical laws and by these physical laws natural disasters occur, however through these natural disasters God is able to use it by sending people who love God to demonstrate the love of God through unselfish giving and aid. It is tough love and it is the purest and most honest love there is.
So you think it better that the children survive, parent less, homeless, without food, and without a way to care for themselves?
So there were no compassionate people back in Biblical times who could have adopted these children?
Firstly I was referring to current disasters such as the earthquake in Haiti. But as for adopting children instead of killing them in biblical times: (this is an example of the reason for the killing of children in the earlier referenced Numbers 31) If the male children had been allowed to mature, they most likely would have followed the pagan ways of their forefathers, and eventually would have taken vengeance on the Israelites. Killing the males not only prevented them from falling into the same abominable sins as their parents, but also kept Israel from having to battle them later. http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/586
Once again, you are perceiving the death of children to be so cruel, because you are looking at it from your atheist point of view. Death is not the end of life according to Christians and therefore the killing of these children means they go where there is no pain, suffering, sadness, or sickness. If, even as an adult, I was warned of a disaster of extreme devastation and was told that I could either die or be left to try and survive through it..I would choose death because I believe death is only the end of my physical body not my spirit.
Secondly in applying adoption to the current world we live in there is approximately 130 million orphans in the world today. Are you going to be compassionate enough to adopt one or more of them to keep them from suffering through "the one life they have?"
Many people prefer to be burned and tortured forever?! Is this author sane??...If I really believed such a place existed, you can bet your communion wafer that I'd be next in line to kiss god's behind
I believe in the video you sent me to with the debate between Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort vs Rational Response, the woman named Kelly said (and I quote) "I would rather go to hell than go to heaven and worship a megalomaniacal tyrant."
So I think the key phrase in your comment is IF you believed such a place existed....well I do believe such a place exists and I think it would be unfair of God to take Kelly to heaven since she so obviously doesn't want to go there. Hell is not a flaw of God it is a place He will send people who reject Christ. Not people who are bad because we are all bad in the sense that we all sin....hell isn't a place for sinners, it is for people who reject Christ.
An atheist might claim their lack of belief in god is due to insufficient evidence and common sense
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.New Living Translation
I think the lack of common sense falls on those that have put on blinders to the truth of God. Whatever you reasons you hold for not believing that God exists, is no excuse in light of this scripture.
Let's use some common sense right here:
"Unlikely things happen all the time." This is the mantra of the anti-design movement. However, there is an absolute physical limit for improbable events to happen in our universe. The universe contains only 1080 baryons and has only been around for 13.7 billion years (1018 sec). Since the smallest unit of time is Planck time (10-45 sec),5 the lowest probability event that can ever happen in the history of the universe is:
1080 x 1018 x 1045 =10143
So, although it would be possible that one or two constants might require unusual fine-tuning by chance, it would be virtually impossible that all of them would require such fine-tuning. Some physicists have indicated that any of a number of different physical laws would be compatible with our present universe. However, it is not just the current state of the universe that must be compatible with the physical laws. Even more stringent are the initial conditions of the universe, since even minor deviations would have completely disrupted the process. For example, adding a grain of sand to the weight of the universe now would have no effect. However, adding even this small amount of weight at the beginning of the universe would have resulted in its collapse early in its history.
Even though many atheists would like to dismiss such evidence of design, cosmologists know better, and have made statements such as the following, which reveal the depth of the problem for the atheistic worldview:
* "This type of universe, however, seems to require a degree of fine-tuning of the initial conditions that is in apparent conflict with 'common wisdom'."6
* "Polarization is predicted. It's been detected and it's in line with theoretical predictions. We're stuck with this preposterous universe."7
* "In all of these worlds statistically miraculous (but not impossible) events would be necessary to assemble and preserve the fragile nuclei that would ordinarily be destroyed by the higher temperatures. However, although each of the corresponding histories is extremely unlikely, there are so many more of them than those that evolve without "miracles," that they would vastly dominate the livable universes that would be created by Poincare recurrences. We are forced to conclude that in a recurrent world like de Sitter space our universe would be extraordinarily unlikely."8
The newest "solution" to design in the universe is a belief in the multi-universe theory
What scientific evidence exists to support the multiverse model? None! Not only is there no evidence, the physics of our own universe requires that we will never be able to obtain any evidence about any other universe (even if it does exist). Even secular websites admit that such ideas amount to nothing more than unfalsifiable metaphysics:
"Appeals to multiple or "parallel" cosmoses or to an infinite number of cosmic "Big Bang/Crunch" oscillations as essential elements of proposed mechanisms are not acceptable in submissions due to a lack of empirical correlation and testability. Such beliefs are without hard physical evidence and must therefore be considered unfalsifiable, currently outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove, and therefore more mathematically theoretical and metaphysical than scientific in nature. Recent cosmological evidence also suggests insufficient mass for gravity to reverse continuing cosmic expansion. The best cosmological evidence thus far suggests the cosmos is finite rather than infinite in age."10
godandscience.org
Evolutionary Scientists try to explain the origin of life and the universe by the most difficult calculations and the most complicated theories....you used the term Occams Razor....I'll use it here. The simplest solution the design vs evolution theory is....design.
No more excuses.
It's lessened today (at least in America) not because god has intervened to stop it, but because we've evolved as a people and realized that doing such barbaric things is not conducive to a happy, healthy society.
Well, of course it is probably pointless to mention that there is approximately 2.1 billion confessed christians in the world and the United States being one of the countries with the most christians??
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He made the universe subject to physical laws and by these physical laws natural disasters occur
But see, believers can't prove god is behind the natural laws. They merely assume he is. It seems quite odd that humans have the means to discover how the world really works, how it could all be possible naturally and without a god. If there WERE a god, why would he need to rely on physical laws at all? Why wouldn't the world run by magic instead? Why would he need our bodies to look and run like survival machines; couldn't they run by magic instead? That may sound silly to people who read this, but think about it. I'd be a lot more convinced of there being a god if we didn't have scientific explanations for how everything works/was formed.
Indeed, Sam Harris points out that concepts such as the virgin birth, talking snake, walking on water, being swallowed by a giant fish, the dead being resurrected, etc. - these types of events all DEFY scientific laws and everything we know to be true about the universe. Science would be RIDICULOUS if religion were true: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge2PYWjln0E&videos=NXGZ-Sh2gXY
Are you going to be compassionate enough to adopt one or more of them to keep them from suffering through "the one life they have?"
I don't know why this argument is being pointed back at me. What I was trying to say is couldn't god seek out the GOOD people who are willing to care for orphans and make it happen? Obviously he can't, as you said - 130+ million orphans in the world today. ;)
the woman named Kelly said (and I quote) "I would rather go to hell than go to heaven and worship a megalomaniacal tyrant.
What most atheists mean when they say that is we'd be very surprised if such a fate turned out to be true because it seems pretty unlikely that it is. And yeah, I'd be pretty mad if I found out the world and my life was nothing but a sick cosmic joke. But what makes you so confident that it isn't the Muslims (or Hindus or Taoists or ancient Greeks) who have the correct god?
Hell is not a flaw of God it is a place He will send people who reject Christ. Not people who are bad because we are all bad in the sense that we all sin....hell isn't a place for sinners, it is for people who reject Christ.
And do YOU think that's fair? What's the point of torturing me forever, eh? There's no mercy in allowing the majority of your supposed children to be in pain forever, sorry. It makes me really sad that Christians think this is A-okay.
Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature.
No, I can't. I'm not one of those people who is satisfied by looking at a newborn baby and saying, "See? God's love/god did it!" I want to know where babies REALLY come from. lol
Even more stringent are the initial conditions of the universe, since even minor deviations would have completely disrupted the process. For example, adding a grain of sand to the weight of the universe now would have no effect. However, adding even this small amount of weight at the beginning of the universe would have resulted in its collapse early in its history.
In February 2007, I can remember saying to an atheist friend: "Just look at how perfect Earth is for us! Kinda funny how we're the only ones like us, eh, eh?"
What he said next changed my life forever:
"Out of billions upon billions of galaxies, it's not unlikely that ours (and several others like ours) could have arose."
Such a statement was the last kick in the pants I needed to investigate the evidence for/against god.
Evolutionary Scientists try to explain the origin of life and the universe by the most difficult calculations and the most complicated theories....you used the term Occams Razor....I'll use it here. The simplest solution the design vs evolution theory is....design.
I'm no scientist, but from what I've heard, life started out very simple and gradually became more complex. Atheists claim Occam's Razor because inserting a magical sky being who can break the laws of physics at whim is NOT the simplest explanation!
Well, of course it is probably pointless to mention that there is approximately 2.1 billion confessed christians in the world and the United States being one of the countries with the most christians??
Why aren't Mexico, South America, or parts of Africa fairing as well then? It isn't religion that makes this country great -- quite the opposite, actually. It's our SECULAR government that takes all the credit; it's our guaranteed FREEDOMS that so many other countries lack. And China is totally set to kick our *bleep* in a few years; there aren't many Christians there. ;)
To say America is a "Christian" nation is to also say that we are a WHITE and FEMALE nation. Majority rules, I guess!
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Tantricia--
(http://fireintheocean.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/holy-bible-warning.jpg)
Ok, that was awesome. This is my favorite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM
Yeah I love that one too.
In case you're interested...this is what I'm talking about in reference to the origin of the name "Jehovah."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uYWtBb01G0&feature=PlayList&p=D3B9B2D6788E5F28&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=69
I put this on my favorites bar and will check it out soon. Cool find.
Falconer02~ thank the higher powers, the aliens have spared our puny planet because they did find intelligent life! :thumbsup: the bible warning/disclaimer totally fantastic!!!! Bible rating XXX
F02, the FORCE is with YOU.....ALWAYS! :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
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When it comes to the bible I feel it is a story..Truth well I really cannot believe that..I consider myself no religion.
Atheists views make sense,Wicca makes sense..Other than that other religions seem very umm..wishy washy..
I believe love all gay,straight,blah blah blah..So sins make no sense to me cause no one is free from sin..
Everyone thinks of something sinful or has done something deemed as sinful..
Sorry got lost lmao..So no Bible is no truth to me its a story a man on some mind altering drugs started and a imperfect closed minded person finished.
Bfwings~there is intelligent life on this planet! Wicca makes more sense because the focus is on nature & harming none. If there is a higher power out there, it would be something that is kind. Something that will allow us to grow & evolve. Not something we worship due to fear & punishment if we don't fall in line with the masses. :peace: Sign: a recovering X-catholic
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You want to find out if the Devil is real? Go into a dark room and sit in the middle of the floor and summon him! Good Luck
Yes, because that will work just as well as it did when I was 8.
Sherna, hon, that godandscience site in particular - it really bothers me. It is quite slick; I could see how it would be convincing to a believer who is trying to look for "better, more scientific" reasons to believe in god. It has an "answer" to just about anything an atheist would bring up that sure sounds good if you only take it at face value! Given that I'm not in that mindset anymore, I can read its claims objectively, and I'm routinely finding contradictions, propaganda, bad information, and misinformation. In anything you read, it is best to critically examine it: does what I'm reading hold up to reality? Does this answer really satisfy the issue? Do I still have questions or objections with this website's "explanations"?
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Sherna, hon, that godandscience site in particular - it really bothers me. It is quite slick; I could see how it would be convincing to a believer who is trying to look for "better, more scientific" reasons to believe in god
I could see how it would bother someone who doesn't want to be confronted with truth ;)
I want to give you a virtual hug (((((((((((((queen))))))))))))))))
Just cause I love you and I can't hug you for real.
I think I'm going to call a truce for the moment because I should only reply to yours or others posts (in regards to this topic of debate) when I feel the spirit is leading me and I don't feel it leading me right now but I didn't want you to think I retreated in the corner sucking my thumb lol.
I said before that I am confidant about the truth based on more than my knowledge. I won't try to explain it here because it's not up for debate for people to tear to shreds.
Maybe God will have me share at a later time, maybe not I don't know. My knowledge is ever increasing from your camp (as you like to say lol) and from mine. For that I am completely blessed to have had all my beliefs thrown into a free for all attack! No hard feelings here but genuine thankfulness that you don't give up easily!!! :)
Believe it or not as a christian I asked nearly all the things you have brought out here and I had no answer. I nearly completely rejected God for a long time (I say nearly completely because I didn't go ALL atheist, I never came to the point where I believed God doesn't exist but I seriously questioned His character and the myriad of things I didn't understand...so I'm not completely alien to an atheists or agnostics doubts about God)
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I don't put the "o" in g-d because my faith teaches that to know someone's name is to know them on a personal level, and we cannot possibly know g-d on that level. There are over 70 different ways of calling g-d, but we do not know g-d's name except for imperfect translations. It's just another symbol of my not knowing g-d as I know others, like friends, relatives, and even acquaintances.
My saying I don't know who is right doesn't make me a doubter or a hypocrite or a walking contradiction; it just makes me honest. I feel like I've got the right path, but to be fair, I always say I could be wrong. My faith fits me better than my underwear, and I am proud of it, but I won't discount or discredit another who feels the same way (including those who have no faith). I believe religion is a very personal thing, and I believe it would be wrong of me to tell another that what they believe is wrong, especially if they believe as strongly as I do. I am not a doubter. I am a thinker, and I don't proselytize. I encourage people to think. There is a difference.
I also have a sense of humor, and I believe g-d does, too. Honestly...take a look at the residents (human, animal, mineral) and tell me with a straight face that g-d doesn't have a sense of humor. Better yet, check out www.peopleatwalmart.com.
I am highly intrigued and amused by the comments I've been reading about the deaths of the children, and whether they could be adopted or be cruelly left parent-less...these children who would be better off dead than they would without their parents...what about parents (or mothers) who are so adamant about not wanting a child that they would have the fetus vacuumed out of their body (and those who would be willing to go so far as to use a wire hanger)...would the child not be better off in "g-d's loving arms?" A fetus deprived of a life would be that much worse than a child who has already spent time on earth deprived of a "rest of" their life?
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Remember when you debate religion neither party can prove their belief.
Believers cannot prove there is a God and Atheists cannot prove there isn't a God. Scientists just need to continue to search for the answers and maybe then one day if there is no God be able to prove it.
The burden of proof is on the "believers" not vise versa. The simplest explanation is usually the right one.
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People are so quick to blame God on the worlds problems today......Its people that cause the problems and not God!
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Remember that when loved ones pass away and you attend a funeral. Remember that when you are all in the bed crying your eyes out that you will never get to see them again and there is no God...What a burden!
I don't think it's a burden. I always wondered how I would react when an important person in my life died...and I got a peek at such a reaction in December 2007. My grandfather called me and said, "I'm sorry to tell you this, but your dad has passed away." I was getting ready for work that day and stopped in my tracks. "...What?" I said, shocked. "Your uncle found his obituary the other day [reads details]." My grandfather could not tell me HOW he had died, but I was upset and crying nonetheless. Canceled going in to work. I felt a bit put-off by this news, considering my dad was only 48 at the time. I wanted to know what happened.
It turns out he killed himself on December 26th that year. He never said goodbye to me and hadn't talked to me for months leading up to this (I was never around him growing up, and even when we did finally meet when I was 17, he didn't put much if an effort in to maintain a relationship with me). When I went to the memorial service, what upset me most was how his Reverend cousin turned it into one big religious fest. My tears at this point were not sadness that he was gone, but ANGER that his goodbye service was tainted by preaching and lies. Forget speaking fondly of memories of my dad, this is what we all got instead:
"God saw how sad Rick was, and so an angel carried him away that fateful day. Blah, blah, blah. He's in a heaven now where he can never hurt again." :bs: :bs: Yeah, even though, you know, he only sort of believed in god in general, and if he truly trusted in Jesus as his "savior", he wouldn't have killed himself. Get your story straight, religious people. He's in hell by your standards.
Anyway, the point is EVERYONE DIES. Yes it's sad at first, but do you really think anyone wants you to waste the rest of YOUR life mourning them?? Be grateful for the time you DID have with them, but don't worship the dead, yo! They're not able to appreciate it by default. ;)
Death sucks, but you're not going to do yourself any favors by LYING to yourself about something coming after.
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Really, I don't waste my time with all this God stuff and Bible stuff and I just live my life. If there is no God then when I would find out the truth there will be nothing to use to find out (no brain), so it won't matter.
I can live my life like there is a God, it does make everything seem everlasting and beautiful.
I am a skeptic but some things you just believe even if it seems too good to be true. I still believe I will be swept off my feet by prince charming and ride off into the sunset on his horse (car) after being married and live happily ever after.
Why take that from me? Dare to dream.
I wonder how long until this is deleted ...
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I could see how it would bother someone who doesn't want to be confronted with truth
Sprinkling fake things with faulty truths does not make it true no matter how sweet it tastes.
I feel the spirit is leading me and I don't feel it leading me right now but I didn't want you to think I retreated in the corner sucking my thumb lol.
Last time the spirit lead me, I wound up falling onto a busy highway. Good thing I threw that lemon aside and used my perception, principles, reasoning, and ninja skills to get out of that sticky situation.
I don't put the "o" in g-d because my faith teaches that to know someone's name is to know them on a personal level, and we cannot possibly know g-d on that level. There are over 70 different ways of calling g-d, but we do not know g-d's name except for imperfect translations. It's just another symbol of my not knowing g-d as I know others, like friends, relatives, and even acquaintances.
That's unique. I've never heard of that before. It's like you aren't imposing a relationship on someone. Even though I don't believe the christian god exists, I suppose that's a noble trait to practice.
It turns out he killed himself on December 26th that year. He never said goodbye to me and hadn't talked to me for months leading up to this (I was never around him growing up, and even when we did finally meet when I was 17, he didn't put much if an effort in to maintain a relationship with me). When I went to the memorial service, what upset me most was how his Reverend cousin turned it into one big religious fest. My tears at this point were not sadness that he was gone, but ANGER that his goodbye service was tainted by preaching and lies.
Ohhhh...that's AWFUL. Sorry to hear about that...geez. Really I am :( And then to salt the wound, they give him a run-of-the-mill religious speech. Yeah I imagine a lot of non-delusioned people would be p.o'd too considering faulty christian reasoning. I know I am just by hearing that.
I wonder how long until this is deleted ...
I think a better question is "Why am I reading this troll garbage?"
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Last time the spirit lead me, I wound up falling onto a busy highway. Good thing I threw that lemon aside and used my perception, principles, reasoning, and ninja skills to get out of that sticky situation.
Are you being literal? :o
Even though I don't believe the christian god exists, I suppose that's a noble trait to practice.
I wondered about the missing letter, too. I personally don't capitalize the word god because most people refer to "god" as the Christian god and think he's a real person, when he's not. Such a god is not deserving of the respect of a proper noun when so many horrible things have been done in his (invisible) name. Unlike Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny -- I have no problem capitalizing those!
Ohhhh...that's AWFUL. Sorry to hear about that...geez. Really I am :( And then to salt the wound, they give him a run-of-the-mill religious speech. Yeah I imagine a lot of non-delusioned people would be p.o'd too considering faulty christian reasoning. I know I am just by hearing that.
It's alright. :) I'm glad he's not depressed anymore. His atoms have been recycled back into the universe, "living on" in trees, animals, water, and great minds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83j-IDqPOVc&videos=qF4YnX3CQXE
And yeah, his mom asked me if I wanted to say anything after all of the religious mumbo-jumbo had been said, but I was too pissed at that point. It would have been socially awkward for me to say what I REALLY felt: "Listen, he's dead. He's not in heaven. He's not in hell. He's dead. Instead of wasting our appointed time to remember him by filling it with impossible thinking, let his death be a lesson to live your life to the fullest and not take the people you care about for granted."
Man, such a burden it would be if I were still a Christian, believing my poor father was being burned and tortured right now. How could "a person of faith" reasonably live with that??!!? Wouldn't that bother you guys??
Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself. Funny how Christians like to say one thing (that those who commit suicide go straight to hell), but when it comes time to actually have the funeral, suddenly the doctrine has changed!! :dontknow:
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Quote
I feel the spirit is leading me and I don't feel it leading me right now but I didn't want you to think I retreated in the corner sucking my thumb lol.
Last time the spirit lead me, I wound up falling onto a busy highway. Good thing I threw that lemon aside and used my perception, principles, reasoning, and ninja skills to get out of that sticky situation.[/quote]
See this is what I'm talking about, atheists being condescending and disrespectful. I think I have been respectful of you as a person, despite disagreeing with you I have not mocked you or tried to humiliate you by making fun of you or what you think.
This comment is disrespectful to me as a person. You can think my beliefs are ridiculous but to stoop to mocking my beliefs is immature and I really don't appreciate it. :(
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This comment is disrespectful to me as a person. You can think my beliefs are ridiculous but to stoop to mocking my beliefs is immature and I really don't appreciate it. :(
He's a good guy. I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt your feelings!
WHY atheists are "arrogant": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve_CFI0W4mU&videos=FEiwbzy9puw (I screened it; it's not offensive - lol)
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I don't put the "o" in g-d because my faith teaches that to know someone's name is to know them on a personal level, and we cannot possibly know g-d on that level. There are over 70 different ways of calling g-d, but we do not know g-d's name except for imperfect translations. It's just another symbol of my not knowing g-d as I know others, like friends, relatives, and even acquaintances.
That's unique. I've never heard of that before. It's like you aren't imposing a relationship on someone. Even though I don't believe the christian god exists, I suppose that's a noble trait to practice.
Ahh, but I don't believe in the christian god, either. I'm Jewish. There is a big difference. One of the biggies is that we don't try to "save" people or frighten them into our way of believing. :thumbsup:
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atheists being condescending and disrespectful. I think I have been respectful of you as a person, despite disagreeing with you I have not mocked you or tried to humiliate you by making fun of you or what you think.
It was a sort of metaphor for what happened to me. An analogy per se. When you said you didn't feel the spirit leading you, I just felt it kind of disrespectful to not give yourself ANY credit for an attempt at reasoning. Instead of patting yourself on the back and saying "hey i'm out of it but yeah I'll get back to ya; good argument thus far", you feel that god had to dismiss you from the argument; that god needed to give you a break because you didn't feel him helping you out :sad1:. It sounded extremely delusional when I read it-- that you'd back into that emotional feeling than just a blunt "too tired-- I'll get back to ya soon." A pointless advertisement of faith.
Sorry if you took it harshly...but it just sounds so stereotypical of a christian-minion mindset and you seem better than that.
His atoms have been recycled back into the universe, "living on" in trees, animals, water, and great minds.
This is truth.
Ahh, but I don't believe in the christian god, either. I'm Jewish. There is a big difference. One of the biggies is that we don't try to "save" people or frighten them into our way of believing.
I totally forgot! My apologies. Wasn't it true that you couldn't speak the name of god in the OT or you'd be punished?
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This comment is disrespectful to me as a person. You can think my beliefs are ridiculous but to stoop to mocking my beliefs is immature and I really don't appreciate it. :(
He's a good guy. I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt your feelings!
WHY atheists are "arrogant": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve_CFI0W4mU&videos=FEiwbzy9puw (I screened it; it's not offensive - lol)
Listen, I have been very tolerant I think in reading posts that I believe slander a God that I am completely in love with, because I also love His people and I understand that you don't respect God because you don't believe in Him. But if I were to call your mother a stupid *bleep* and laugh and mock her, would that be ok? I love God no less than you love your mother so why is it ok for you to poke fun at my God? And not only that but Falconer's comment was clearly meant to try and make me look stupid. Would it be ok to you for me to be arrogant in my statements about what I believe your mother to be because I'm sure I know her character better than you?
It's one thing to have a legitimate question or are making a statement that you think states your position, it's another thing to treat another human being like they have no feelings simply because you think their feelings are stupid.
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It was a sort of metaphor for what happened to me. An analogy per se. When you said you didn't feel the spirit leading you, I just felt it kind of disrespectful to not give yourself ANY credit for an attempt at reasoning. Instead of patting yourself on the back and saying "hey i'm out of it but yeah I'll get back to ya; good argument thus far", you feel that god had to dismiss you from the argument; that god needed to give you a break because you didn't feel him helping you out sad1. It sounded extremely delusional when I read it-- that you'd back into that emotional feeling than just a blunt "too tired-- I'll get back to ya soon." A pointless advertisement of faith.
I won't give myself credit for anything without giving credit to God first.....I wasn't too tired I posted EXACTLY what I felt at the time. Claiming to be too tired would have been a lie. And it wasn't an advertisement of my faith, this is just who I am.
I am of the opinion that at least if you don't feel christians in an of themselves deserve respect then at least maybe you might think that I have earned your respect by not treating you like less of a human being because I think your beliefs are wrong. I do not consider myself better than you because I believe I'm right. As a matter of fact you may actually be a better person than me, I don't know you that well to make such a judgment. All I asked for since coming in this forum is consideration for human feelings.
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Ahh, but I don't believe in the christian god, either. I'm Jewish. There is a big difference. One of the biggies is that we don't try to "save" people or frighten them into our way of believing.
I totally forgot! My apologies. Wasn't it true that you couldn't speak the name of god in the OT or you'd be punished?
That is one way of viewing it, but like I said, in a room of four Jews there are six Judaisms. My take on it is as I explained before.
Here is a video you may find interesting...I just was hesitant to post it because the author is attempting to convert...which I wholeheartedly do not agree with. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZlxDJUVMnw
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But if I were to call your mother a stupid *bleep* and laugh and mock her, would that be ok? I love God no less than you love your mother so why is it ok for you to poke fun at my God?
I'm not sure this example holds any weight. If my mom was never seen or heard and everyone had defined her through their own interpretations without any evidence of them being right (besides a feeling), sure. She would seem like a stupid *bleep* in a philosophical sense. That is funny. But here's the kicker- she's nice and real. I have documents, pictures, footage, etc. I can see and talk to her just like everyone else can. She even replies back! I can hear her! No silly justifications, feelings, or contradicting interpretations needed. The best part? She does not judge and curse me beyond the grave if I think she's wrong about something.
Falconer's comment was clearly meant to try and make me look stupid.
it's another thing to treat another human being like they have no feelings simply because you think their feelings are stupid.
You need to give yourself some credit. That's all that I was getting at. That original statement sounded very delusional. I'll explain later- there are too many body thetans attached to my body to give you a non-delusional answer.
I think your beliefs are wrong. I do not consider myself better than you because I believe I'm right. As a matter of fact you may actually be a better person than me, I don't know you that well to make such a judgment. All I asked for since coming in this forum is consideration for human feelings.
Pish posh! You're taking it far too personally. Why do you believe I am wrong? Does it just stem back to a feeling?
Here is a video you may find interesting...I just was hesitant to post it because the author is attempting to convert...which I wholeheartedly do not agree with.
It's funny...I watched the video and as every point was made, I realized I already knew the basics of it. But yeah he's definately a converter at the end. That's not too bad in this case though. He gave some sound points and did his homework. Far from, say, a creationist science video. If you have any other good ones, please share.
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I did find some highly entertaining videos that I will not post a direct link for since they can be deemed highly offensive in their content, but check out the user BionicDance on youtube.
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The example holds weight, not based on your mother existing or not, but that she is someone you love and I have no right to disrespect you by mocking her.
Pish posh! You're taking it far too personally. Why do you believe I am wrong? Does it just stem back to a feeling?
Go back to every post I have ever made, it's not based on feelings but in evidence, evidence that your choosing to ignore or blow off by making statements that it's "contradictory" and "wacky" "unreasonable" (not necessarily your personal statements but made by atheists on this site in general). There isn't anything I could present as evidence that you wouldn't dismiss, purely because you think anything written by a christian is unreliable merely because they are christian.
And I wasn't taking it personally until your comment because, your comment wasn't what is considered "polite discourse" it did nothing to add to the debate; it was a personal ridicule of me based on your opinion that my statement was "delusional".
So in conclusion to this particular side issue to the topic of the bible....I am who I am, I believe in God based evidences I have found from many sources and my own personal relationship with my Creator. I am willing to share information pertinent to a topic, but I expect the same courtesies that I give, in respecting the people behind the computer screen. That's all I ask, I'm not asking for agreement just courtesy.
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I did find some highly entertaining videos that I will not post a direct link for since they can be deemed highly offensive in their content
Guilty as charged here as well! My favorite is http://www.youtube.com/user/ZOMGitsCriss; videos like "Jesus Tells It Like It Is", "God Tells It Like It Is", and "How to Be a Good Creationist" -- freaking hilarious. I'm pretty sure she's never posted anything bad about Judaism (since Judaism isn't trying to push an agenda), just Christianity and Islam. ;)
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The example holds weight, not based on your mother existing or not, but that she is someone you love and I have no right to disrespect you by mocking her.
Pish posh! You're taking it far too personally. Why do you believe I am wrong? Does it just stem back to a feeling?
Go back to every post I have ever made, it's not based on feelings but in evidence, evidence that your choosing to ignore or blow off by making statements that it's "contradictory" and "wacky" "unreasonable" (not necessarily your personal statements but made by atheists on this site in general). There isn't anything I could present as evidence that you wouldn't dismiss, purely because you think anything written by a christian is unreliable merely because they are christian.
And I wasn't taking it personally until your comment because, your comment wasn't what is considered "polite discourse" it did nothing to add to the debate; it was a personal ridicule of me based on your opinion that my statement was "delusional".
So in conclusion to this particular side issue to the topic of the bible....I am who I am, I believe in God based evidences I have found from many sources and my own personal relationship with my Creator. I am willing to share information pertinent to a topic, but I expect the same courtesies that I give, in respecting the people behind the computer screen. That's all I ask, I'm not asking for agreement just courtesy.
I prefer to believe in things that have some basis in reality. There is no "evidence" of a god...
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Eh, even if someone did post something bad about Judaism, it really wouldn't bother me. I post things that are bad enough. I even mock my own g-d. But I don't believe my g-d would hold it against me.
And, in all fairness, there are some Jews that do try to push an agenda, as evidenced in the video I posted. ;)
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There isn't anything I could present as evidence that you wouldn't dismiss, purely because you think anything written by a christian is unreliable merely because they are christian.
To be honest, the in-depth justification/"context" of the evil in the Bible you presented from your sites was er, impressive...for lack of a better word. When I finally sat down to read the Bible for myself straight-through as a Christian, I didn't bother trying to research how to rationalize all of the horror that I read like your websites do. To me, it was quite obvious that the god I was reading about was an immoral tyrant and didn't line up with the definitions "perfect", "all-loving", "all-compassionate", etc. Blame it on how I was raised or my critical-thinking personality. It was also quite plain to me that this Bible wasn't the holy word of god, but rather primitive man's attempt to push political agenda and make sense of their unscientific world.
In addition to my reading the Bible, the article I posted in my latest thread (http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=17122.0) was part of the puzzle of coming away from my Christian beliefs back in 2007.
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I prefer to believe in things that have some basis in reality. There is no "evidence" of a god...
Books with evidence of God
# By Design by by Dr. Jonathan Safarti
# Darwin’s Black Box by Michael J. Behe
# Darwin’s Enigma by by Luther D. Sunderland
# Bones of Contention by Marvin L. Lubenow
# Buried Alive by by Jack Cuozzo
# Icons of Evolution by by Jonathan Wells
# The Case for a Creator by Lee Strobel
# In Six Days Edited by John F. Ashton PhD.
# On the Seventh Day Edited by John F. Ashton PhD.
# Many Infallible Proofs Henry M. Morris
The Scientific Case Against Evolution by Robert Locke a NON CREATIONIST http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/locke.html
Oh and here is a small list of SCIENTISTS who have accepted the Biblical account of creation
* Dr. William Arion, Biochemistry, Chemistry
* Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
* Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
* Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
* Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
* Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
* Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
* Dr. Don Batten, Plant Physiologist
* Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
* Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
* Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
* Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
* Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
* Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
* Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
* Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
* Dr. Rob Carter, Marine Biology
* Dr. David Catchpoole, Plant Physiology
* Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
* Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
* Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
* Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
* Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
* Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
* Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
* Timothy C. Coppess, M.S., Environmental Scientist
* Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
* Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
* Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
* Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
* Dr. Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
* Dr. Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
* Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
* Dr. Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
* Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
* Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
* Dr. Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
* Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
* Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
* Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
* Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
* Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
* Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
* Dr. Dudley Eirich, Molecular Biologist
* Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
* Dr. Andrew J. Fabich, Microbiology
* Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
* Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
* Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
* Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
* Dr. Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
* Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
* Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
* Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
* Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
* Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
* Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
* Dr. Robin Greer, Chemist, History
* Dr. Stephen Grocott, Chemist
* Dr. Vicki Hagerman, DMV
* Dr. Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
* Dr. Barry Harker, Philosopher
* Dr. Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
* Dr. John Hartnett, Physics
* Dr. Mark Harwood, Engineering (satellite specialist)
* Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
* Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
* Dr. Harold R. Henry, Engineer
* Dr. Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
* Dr. Joseph Henson, Entomologist
* Dr. Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
* Dr. Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
* Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
* Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
* Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
* Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
* Dr. Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
* Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
* Dr. Russ Humphreys, Physics
* Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
* George T. Javor, Biochemistry
* Dr. Pierre Jerlström, Molecular Biology
* Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
* Dr. Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
* Dr. Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
* Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
* Dr. Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
* Dr. Dean Kenyon, Biologist
* Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
* Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
* Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
* Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
* Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
* Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
* Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
* Dr. John W. Klotz, Biologist
* Dr. Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
* Dr. Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
* Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
* Dr. Johan Kruger, Zoology
* Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
* Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
* Dr. John Leslie, Biochemist
* Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
* Dr. Alan Love, Chemist
* Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
* Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
* Dr. Ronald C. Marks, Associate Professor of Chemistry
* Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
* Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
* Dr. John McEwan, Chemist
* Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
* Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
* Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
* Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
* Dr. Albert Mills, Animal Embryologist/Reproductive Physiologist
* Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
* Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
* Dr. John N. Moore, Science Educator
* Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
* Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
* Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
* Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
* Dr. Len Morris, Physiologist
* Dr. Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
* Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology
* Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
* Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
* Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
* Dr. David Oderberg, Philosopher
* Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
* Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
* Dr. John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
* Dr. Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
* Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
* Dr. David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
* Prof. Richard Porter
* Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
* Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
* Dr. A.S. Reece, M.D.
* Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
* Dr. Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
* Dr. David Rosevear, Chemist
* Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
* Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Physical Chemistry
* Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
* Dr. Ian Scott, Educator
* Dr. Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
* Dr. Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
* Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
* Dr. Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
* Dr. Emil Silvestru, Geology
* Dr. Roger Simpson, Engineer
* Dr. Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
* Dr. E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
* Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915–1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
* Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
* Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
* Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
* Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
* Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
* Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
* Dr. Charles Taylor, Linguistics
* Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
* Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
* Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
* Dr. Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
* Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
* Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
* Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
* Dr. Joachim Vetter, Biologist
* Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892–1979) Surgeon
* Dr. Tas Walker, Geology/Engineering
* Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
* Dr. Keith Wanser, Physicist
* Dr. Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
* Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
* Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
* Dr. Carl Wieland, Medicine/Surgery
* Dr. Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
* Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
* Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
* Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
* Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
* Dr. Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
* Dr. Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
* Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
* Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
* Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology
But Cuppycake I guess you think they are all stupid and have "no evidence"??
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Sherna, I could be wrong, but you appear as though you feel attacked. Please understand at least on my end, this is my first "committed" experience using a forum AND engaging in regular, intelligent discussion about religion. So it's a learning process. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to appear too arrogant at times and offend people...when that's not always my intention.
Why do I, as an atheist, challenge sweet, good religious people such as yourself, you say? Because I'm a lot more likely to get through to the people who are fairly benign with their beliefs rather than Fred Phelps or the 9/11 hijackers. Most religious people are good people, so if atheists can get the moderates to critically examine their beliefs, we can band together to stop the fringe loonies of the world who ARE harming in the name of religion. :thumbsup:
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Sherna, I could be wrong, but you appear as though you feel attacked. Please understand at least on my end, this is my first "committed" experience using a forum AND engaging in regular, intelligent discussion about religion. So it's a learning process. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to appear too arrogant at times and offend people...when that's not always my intention.
Why do I, as an atheist, challenge sweet, good religious people such as yourself, you say? Because I'm a lot more likely to get through to the people who are fairly benign with their beliefs rather than Fred Phelps or the 9/11 hijackers. Most religious people are good people, so if atheists can get the moderates to critically examine their beliefs, we can band together to stop the fringe loonies of the world who ARE harming in the name of religion. :thumbsup:
Queen, I feel slightly attacked yes but it's more frustrating to me that it seems I am a minority in the forum or I'm the only one willing to stand up STRONGLY for my belief. My question is where are the rest of the STRONG christians here?? But anyhow I agree we should band together to stop the atrocities committed in the name of religion. I loathe to see protesters outside abortion clinics with God's name written along side a message that God despises. Yes, we as christians disagree with it but God's message is not "Go forth into all the nations and tell people of my wrath and hatred" God hates sin NOT PEOPLE. But it's hard to band together when our intent is the same but our message is different. The only thing that matters to me is convincing people that they don't have to be good enough for heaven they only have to accept the passionate act Christ did for them and they are free! No more guilt and shame but only a relationship with the One who created them!
I used to think I was so unworthy of God that it made me feel small and ashamed. I had secret dark things in me that I kept hidden for fear of being judged by people. But I found out God's grace covers all that.
I have been promiscuous, committed adultery, lied, stole, cheated, manipulated, judging, hypocritical, addicted to pornography, drugs, and alcohol, abusive, hateful, vindictive, unforgiving.....in my mind, I committed murder and torture and schemed all kinds of things.....
Yet I know that God loves me, I don't fear death and I don't fear hell. Christ died so that I don't have to live in bondage to guilt of sin. My desire is to please God by loving what He loves (people and righteousness and truth) and hating what He hates (sin). My mission is to love people!!
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Sherna, I could be wrong, but you appear as though you feel attacked. Please understand at least on my end, this is my first "committed" experience using a forum AND engaging in regular, intelligent discussion about religion. So it's a learning process. I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to appear too arrogant at times and offend people...when that's not always my intention.
Why do I, as an atheist, challenge sweet, good religious people such as yourself, you say? Because I'm a lot more likely to get through to the people who are fairly benign with their beliefs rather than Fred Phelps or the 9/11 hijackers. Most religious people are good people, so if atheists can get the moderates to critically examine their beliefs, we can band together to stop the fringe loonies of the world who ARE harming in the name of religion. :thumbsup:
Queen, I feel slightly attacked yes but it's more frustrating to me that it seems I am a minority in the forum or I'm the only one willing to stand up STRONGLY for my belief. My question is where are the rest of the STRONG christians here?? But anyhow I agree we should band together to stop the atrocities committed in the name of religion. I loathe to see protesters outside abortion clinics with God's name written along side a message that God despises. Yes, we as christians disagree with it but God's message is not "Go forth into all the nations and tell people of my wrath and hatred" God hates sin NOT PEOPLE. But it's hard to band together when our intent is the same but our message is different. The only thing that matters to me is convincing people that they don't have to be good enough for heaven they only have to accept the passionate act Christ did for them and they are free! No more guilt and shame but only a relationship with the One who created them!
I used to think I was so unworthy of God that it made me feel small and ashamed. I had secret dark things in me that I kept hidden for fear of being judged by people. But I found out God's grace covers all that.
I have been promiscuous, committed adultery, lied, stole, cheated, manipulated, judging, hypocritical, addicted to pornography, drugs, and alcohol, abusive, hateful, vindictive, unforgiving.....in my mind, I committed murder and torture and schemed all kinds of things.....
Yet I know that God loves me, I don't fear death and I don't fear hell. Christ died so that I don't have to live in bondage to guilt of sin. My desire is to please God by loving what He loves (people and righteousness and truth) and hating what He hates (sin). My mission is to love people!!
I have to say, in the short amount of time that I have been posting on these forums, I have found you to be one of the nicest people here. You disagree, but you don't personally attack, and I admire you for this.
And I have to say I disagree with you on the fare for heaven. I have a hard time believing that a man who devoted his life to helping others (a small story that stuck with me from Chicken Soup for the Jewish Soul) but did not adhere to any religion would be denied heaven while a rapist or murderer that accepted Christ on his deathbed would be welcomed. If that is what I have to look forward to; meeting my god fearing rapist in heaven, then I'd much rather face non-existence.
Just a little food for thought http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuJoC7Lz6SI
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marie,
I want to give you some advice. If you are a STRONG christian, then be strong in your responses. Don't play games with your words. You made a comment about how no one can know if God exists either way but you believe he exists because that's what feels right to you. I'm paraphrasing not direct quoting.
It's okay if you are unsure...that doesn't make you a bad christian but you need to study scriptures and the things in this world that back them, and then YOU WILL KNOW for sure that God exists based on more than your feelings. The bible does not call for blind faith! The atheists and agnostics are ripping you apart because you don't have a sturdy platform to speak from.
I'm not trying to talk down to you, so please don't think that. But you say one thing that appears to be a strong statement and then they upset you and you make a wishy washy statement that contradicts the thing you said before! I applaud that you stick up for yourself, but you need to know that you know that you know that you believe in a God that is real and present in your life! God is calling for strong soldiers who know how to use the two edged sword (the bible) to cut through the lies of Satan that confuse and hurt people. Tell people of God's love! Show them God's love through you!
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Just a little food for thought http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuJoC7Lz6SI
This is great. A very basic way to show the problems of the christian afterlife.
The atheists and agnostics are ripping you apart because you don't have a sturdy platform to speak from.
This has nothing to do with our stances on the topic at hand. She's just a very bad person on the forum. Do not let her fool you- adding her to anything you're debating or discussing will only hurt your words. You don't want to recruit someone who threatens people with violence and wishes them death when they're off their meds. She's crazy.
The example holds weight, not based on your mother existing or not, but that she is someone you love and I have no right to disrespect you by mocking her.
You have no right to disrespect my mom as I couldn't bring myself to do the same to yours. But this example does not fit because you are giving a physical manifestation to something that does not exist. Unless you can prove otherwise, your example works with anything in the fantasy realm. "But if I were to call your mother a stupid *bleep* and laugh and mock her, would that be ok? I love the invisible telepathic green dragon in my backyard no less than you love your mother so why is it ok for you to poke fun at my dragon?"
Books with evidence of God
A christian god? Or is it open for evidence of any god? Because I hate to call the bias card...
The Scientific Case Against Evolution by Robert Locke a NON CREATIONIST
Hey, evolution has some problems. I'll say that...but Robert Locke is an editor though. He brings up some decent points though. What do you personally think all of these strange creatures are that we keep finding?
Oh and here is a small list of SCIENTISTS who have accepted the Biblical account of creation
Granted this list is just a small fraction of the scientific community, this list really does sadden me. I've probably skimmed a few of their writings too. Do you know any of them? I know that some scientists really want this fantasy to be reality, but when you carry the belief that our world was created in a few days, that we came from dirt and a rib, that sweet-talking demon snakes can exist, that all of our troubles were because of eating lying about fruit, etc....you lose a lot of credibility. I saw a man with his Masters in Astronomy convincing an audience of creationists that the UNIVERSE was no older than 6,000 years. He even went as far as to say there are certain things that slow light down so it appears that the universe is older-- how convenient :D!
Now yes technically you can apply this reasoning to non-delusioned scientists too when on the opposite side. But would you rather be with the open world discovering new things or would you rather be packed away in a tight box with limited reasoning that works around those newly discovered things and always slaps a "GOD" label on everything? I think you've seen this- http://img389.imageshack.us/f/sciencevfaith20yp6ds3.png/
I used to think I was so unworthy of God that it made me feel small and ashamed. I had secret dark things in me that I kept hidden for fear of being judged by people. But I found out God's grace covers all that. I have been promiscuous, committed adultery, lied, stole, cheated, manipulated, judging, hypocritical, addicted to pornography, drugs, and alcohol, abusive, hateful, vindictive, unforgiving.....in my mind, I committed murder and torture and schemed all kinds of things.....
Quit yo jibba-jabbin'! This ain't no AA meeting! You's a nice person! We're not going to judge you over past things. Partially because some of these things have cases for being philosophically good. It's not all black and white with nonbelievers :)
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I have to say, in the short amount of time that I have been posting on these forums, I have found you to be one of the nicest people here. You disagree, but you don't personally attack, and I admire you for this.
And I have to say I disagree with you on the fare for heaven. I have a hard time believing that a man who devoted his life to helping others (a small story that stuck with me from Chicken Soup for the Jewish Soul) but did not adhere to any religion would be denied heaven while a rapist or murderer that accepted Christ on his deathbed would be welcomed. If that is what I have to look forward to; meeting my god fearing rapist in heaven, then I'd much rather face non-existence.
Well, I don't know every aspect and dimension of what you believe so I am going to stick with what I know in order to reply to this...Oh and thank you for the complement by the way....
It doesn't say in the bible that God put conditions on forgiveness of sins. He doesn't say that one sin is greater than another. There is a scripture that says the one unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the holy spirit. It is to my understanding that to blaspheme the holy is to hold unforgiveness in your heart towards another. The act of Christ on the cross as God in flesh is the ultimate act of forgiveness and it made provision for every person willing to accept Jesus as their savior. To hold unforgiveness is to go against the very nature of God (his Holy Spirit)
And when you stand praying, forgive, if you have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive you your trespasses. Mark 11:25,26
Now I realize your not christian but I'm explaining why I believe what I believe according the scripture that I live from.
So, God will only NOT forgive us when we come before Him with unforgiveness in our hearts towards others. We ALL need forgiveness for one sin or another and the rapist, and the murderer, and the liar, and the drug abuser, and the child abuser, HORRIBLE as we may see one behavior over another....God sees only a sin. Every person has value regardless of their misdeeds, and anyone willing to cry out to God He will hear them and forgive them. We have no right to say who deserves forgiveness. And truly if I were to meet MY rapist in heaven (because I have one) I would be overwhelmed with joy because my prayers were answered and God saved Him! It took a long time for me to pray for my rapist and to really forgive him but eventually my heart hurt because I knew that God didn't love me any more than He loved the person who hurt me and it was my responsibility to pray for Him.
And this is what Christianity should be teaching because that is the "Good News"
And this also goes back to earning your way into heaven. It sets up a mindset that causes people to try and live up to a standard their whole life and they can't keep up. They do something wrong and feel guilty and then try to do enough good to make up for the bad and hope that it's good enough to keep them out of hell! That sounds like a miserable existence to me. I would rather know that, my desire to do good and my love for God is enough for Him. When I mess up and drop the ball, I don't have to feel guilty but let the grace of God do it's job and I pick up and keep going. I live a guilt free life :)
I simply want to let people know that they can have that too!
Now my whole answer was based on my own christian faith...however your being Jewish by no means implies you're going to hell for rejecting Christ. Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law.
For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; (Romans 2:11-12)
I prefer not to be judged by the law because I scarcely understand it ;)
I prefer Jesus :)
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Falconer, you're not understanding my point. So ok, you have justified to yourself that it was okay to mock me because I made a "delusional" statement in regards to having a close enough relationship to God that I can feel my spirit connect with His Holy Spirit.
I think evolutionary theory stating how we came to be on this planet is delusional but I don't mock you on a personal level for believing something I consider RIDICULOUS!
when you carry the belief that our world was created in a few days,
I believe the Old Earth Creation Theory
As for what I personally think about sudden appearances of fossils....considering fossils are rare I would imagine that it just so happened to be the first fossil discovered of that particular species. It doesn't mean that it burst into existence from nothing or leaped radically from one species to a complete different, and it certainly contradicts proving gradual changes which were necessary for Darwins theory to be worth anything.
You's a nice person! We're not going to judge you over past things.
Thank you. I don't care about people judging me anymore, that was partly my point. I only care what God thinks about me and He didn't judge me of all those things and I'm confidant in how much He loves me.
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OH and I'm not trying to "recruit" anyone. I'm simply trying to help another person become stronger in their faith. She may have confessed mental issues but she is no less a person because of it.
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I see a bad car accident coming your way, and queen can confirm there was a bad accident that came her way. I didn't quote anything when I said it. Just because I am psychic and I can see things doesn't mean I am wishing them or sending them your way.
You're a loon! ::) How is it psychic when you didn't get the person right (the threat was directed at Falconer)? How is it psychic when this "bad accident" you predicted turned out to leave our car perfectly untouched? People who pray or claim to be psychic are way too easily impressed...
If you are psychic, why don't you pick out the next Powerball numbers rather than mooching off the government? Just a thought. :thumbsup:
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So, God will only NOT forgive us when we come before Him with unforgiveness in our hearts towards others. We ALL need forgiveness for one sin or another and the rapist, and the murderer, and the liar, and the drug abuser, and the child abuser, HORRIBLE as we may see one behavior over another....God sees only a sin.
And that's why people call Christianity delusional because a white lie is nowhere near the same thing as raping and murdering a slew of women.
And truly if I were to meet MY rapist in heaven (because I have one) I would be overwhelmed with joy because my prayers were answered and God saved Him!
WOW. This makes me extremely sad. I'm so sorry that you had to through that...but let me just say, as a good, kind human being, you're ALLOWED to not forgive your rapist. Certainly don't go out and murder his whole family or whatever, but it's okay to feel ANGRY; it's okay to want him to get locked up and hope he receives the death penalty. Because it's absolutely shameful and inexcusable what he did. He doesn't deserve to be tortured endlessly for ONE lifetime of evil (in hell)...but what he doesn't deserve even more is to be REWARDED for such vile behavior that wrecked your life. HE DESERVES TO BE REMOVED FROM SOCIETY VIA JAIL OR THE DEATH PENALTY - NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. Earthly jail isn't good enough for most people; they believe god will torture the bad guys forever because they "deserve it". To burn a rapist forever OR to allow him to live in bliss forever simply because he "believed" - both of these are extremely unjust.
It saddens me that Christianity takes advantage of people who have been through horrible stuff. It tells you to bury the angry, hurt feelings that you're entitled to have as a human being who has been wronged...You MUST FORGIVE HIM and accept that he deserves heaven just as much as you do even if we waits until he's on his deathbed to believe in Jesus and has raped 60 women within his lifetime. "Good News"? Ha!
When I mess up and drop the ball, I don't have to feel guilty but let the grace of God do it's job and I pick up and keep going. I live a guilt free life :)
I have a video I watched yesterday that addresses why this get-out-of-guilt-free business is WRONG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2nf_i4HX_Y&videos=gxJJaui2CM0 (warning: it's a little offensive) If the readers don't chose to watch it, the basic message is that Christianity is harmful because it dupes people into believing they are free from responsibility whenever they do something wrong.
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I see a bad car accident coming your way, and queen can confirm there was a bad accident that came her way. I didn't quote anything when I said it. Just because I am psychic and I can see things doesn't mean I am wishing them or sending them your way.
You're a loon! ::) How is it psychic when you didn't get the person right (the threat was directed at Falconer)? How is it psychic when this "bad accident" you predicted turned out to leave our car perfectly untouched? People who pray or claim to be psychic are way too easily impressed...
If you are psychic, why don't you pick out the next Powerball numbers rather than mooching off the government? Just a thought. :thumbsup:
She is more then a loon she is a psychopath!
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I believe the Old Earth Creation Theory
And what it that, exactly? That each "day" in Genesis is really an "age" or "era"?
"FACT: the world is at least 4.6 billion years old. The bible claims to be approximately 6,500. Christians try to argue this by saying the usage of the word “day” in genesis is actually a term for thousands of years in time. This rationalization, they believe can help evolution be accepted into the bible. In other words Christians are trying to say that the word “day” is not meant to be as a 24 hour period. This idea is COMPLETELY FALSE AND NOT PLAUSIBLE. All it takes is a little research into the meaning of the Hebrew word for day and the usage of it in consistency.
Of course, it should be common knowledge that the first five books of the Old Testament were written in Hebrew. The Hebrew word for day used in the genesis is account is “yom”, which is a definite 24-hour period. Christians attempt to say that because there was no sun until the fourth day, that the word yom is null and void. This cant be, for the lord claimed there was light, a morning and an evening PRIOR to the sun being created, hence the sun was not even needed. (Also note another contradiction here, that Christians/Jews refuse to notice. They’ll claim the word yom is void because there is no sun, yet that would mean that there couldn’t have been light or a way to decipher between morning and evening. Obviously this is a MAJOR scientific blunder on Jehovah’s behalf.)
Now this fact alone pretty much blows the sh*t out of the bible, but let’s pretend to accept the word yom is really meant for eons of time, how then can we reconcile the following?:
1) If a day is an era, why are an evening and a morning even mentioned? Actual days must be intended, otherwise, men who lived hundreds of years, e.g., Seth and Noah, would really have lived millions of years. If a day is an era, then a year must be tremendously long, perhaps encompassing hundreds of millions of years;
2) If a day is an era, then much of the Old Testament becomes chaotic. For example, in each of the following verses the same Hebrew word “yom” is employed: “And the flood was forty days upon the earth” (Genesis 7: 1 7), “And he [Moses] was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights” (Exodus 34:28), and “Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights...” (Deuteronomy 9:25). If “yom” means era instead of a 24-hour period, Moses was “there with the Lord” for a VERY long time.
3) If a day means more than 24-hour period, then how are we to interpret the following verses, as well as scores of others. “Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath. . . . in it thou shalt not work... For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth… and rested the seventh day” (Exodus 20:9-11).
4) Genesis 1:16 (“And God made two great lights: The greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night”) states the sun rules the day and the moon rules the night. This obviously is referring to time as we know it, time with days that are 24 hours long with daylight ruling half of each.
5) Adam was made on the sixth day (Genesis 1:26-31) which was supposedly thousand of years long. This was followed by the 7th day which was also thousands of years long. Following the 7th day, Adam fell into sin and was expelled from the Garden. This would mean Adam lived thousands of years, which is false, since he died at age 930 (Genesis 5:5).
6) Genesis 1:5 surely spoke of literal day and literal night, and the inference from the statement, “And the evening and the morning were the first day,” is that it was a literal day of evening and morning, 24-hours. There is no Biblical evidence that the days of this chapter were longer periods.
For those of you Christians who are STILL clinging to the idea that evolution can be reconciled with the bible, take a little advice from one of your own brethren on the matter. The following is a CHRISTIAN AUTHOR who admits that the word yom does mean a 24 hour period in the creation account:
"The Hebrew word for ‘day’ is ‘yom’ and this word can occasionally be used to mean an indefinite period of time, if the content warrants. In the overwhelming preponderance of its occurrences in the O.T., however, it means a literal day… Still further, the plural form of the word (Hebrew 'yamim') is used over 700 times in the O.T. and always, without exception, refers to literal ‘days.’" (The Bible Has the Answers, Henry Morris, p. 94).
Obviously even Creationist Morris admits the idea that each day represented an era is ridiculous. Not only is the day-age theory unacceptable scripturally, but it also is grossly in conflict with the geological position with which it attempts to compromise. My suggestion? Make a valid justification as to how the creation account can be plausible, until then don’t pimp feeble lies to cover up for your even more errant book." ~ http://www.evilbible.com/a_day_is_a_day.htm
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Ok I was gonna just walk away then something stopped me and I had to open my big mouth..The rapist thing..K I was raped at nine and I am sorry if I had to spend eternity with him in heaven then I would rather go to hell.(even though I have no real belief in either just saying) Sorry I was a innocent child so in my eyes he is evil and deserves no forgiveness or anything else just to suffer the way I did for years after what he did..I was not the first or last and he is out among other children..So if your god forgives him then I am sickened cause that is twisted..
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The rapist thing..K I was raped at nine and I am sorry if I had to spend eternity with him in heaven then I would rather go to hell...So if your god forgives him then I am sickened cause that is twisted..
I agree completely. A rapist does not just harm for minutes but for life. A rape survivor has to contend with the fact that they were violated for the rest of their lives. They have to learn to trust people again; they deal with fear on a daily basis. Even when a survivor has recovered somewhat and can live a somewhat secure and normal life, something inevitable comes along that triggers the emotional response...like childbirth or a death in the family...meeting your life partner and falling in love. Who can you trust? What parts of your life can you enjoy with true freedom? And the scum that performed the act that brought this on...they deserve heaven based solely on the fact that they said "I'm so sorry, god. I know now it was wrong for me to do that, and I believe you died for my sins."? Forgive me for being bitter...I'm only human.
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HAHA thank God you're not a psychiatrist and besides I think only a psychiatrist can make that diagnosis, so hush.
How do you know I'm not? I could have a home business or provide services online.
Psychiatrist or not, it's in a person's best interest to make JUDGEMENT CALLS to protect themselves from other people. It doesn't take a Ph.D. for a user of this forum to know that you have the mental state of a 12-year-old...whether it's your fault or not.
I'd also like to note that I observed you for a couple months before I ever said anything "bad" about you, because when I saw others calling you a troll, crazy, etc. I wanted to make sure they were justified. They were.
I also censor my criticisms, btw, to make them more "gentle" so I don't come across as a flaming b*tch.
You have to listen to the thoughts that are in your mind, they are different than normal thoughts, these thoughts tell you thngs that are about to happen.
There is a scientific, evolutionary basis for humans having an "intuition" -- just so you know.
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That's why God is God and men aren't the judge of the universe. God healed me of the psychological trauma of being raped, so I don't feel the pain from it anymore. I have true freedom through being able to forgive the person that hurt me. On top of the fact, that someone who made a mistake has the chance of redemption.
By your standards, everyone would go to hell. Have you lied?? Has your lie hurt somebody?? Oh well, sorry then perhaps the person you hurt by your lie doesn't want to be in heaven with you and by their judgment you shouldn't be allowed to go. That's human judgment, not God's. I'm thankful to believe and trust in a God that gives people another chance.
As for someone who rapes and does it continually, they obviously have not repented and accepted Christ or they wouldn't still be doing it. In which case, they wouldn't go to heaven.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your FAther which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rice on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.Matthew 5:45,46
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Old Earth Creation vs Young Earth Creation
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/creation.html
Funny how despite all the holes and flaws and contradictions with evolution, and even non biased evolutionary scientists making statements regarding the fallacies and inconsistencies, people are still turning a blind eye to the scientific evidences found for Creation. Funny indeed.
Cool Things About Being An Evolutionist
10. You can call "punctuated equilibrium" a scientific theory, then explain why scientific evidence for it cannot be found.
9. When a student tries to raise critical scientific questions of evolution in science class, you tell him he can only ask them in a course on comparative religions.
8. To show transitional forms in school textbooks, you just hire an artist to invent some.
7. You can ignore Phillip Johnson's book "Defeating Darwinism - By Opening Minds" and write your own: "Defeating Creation & Intelligent Design - By Closing Minds".
6. You can refer to books by atheists Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Dawkins as "Holy Writ".
5. If in need of spare cash, rob a bank and call it "natural selection".
4. You get to cross out the word "God" and print "Hydrogen" at Genesis 1:1.
3. You get to use quotation marks around the word "scientists" when writing about creationists who received their Ph.D.'s from major universities.
2. To convince the public that "Lucy" [Australopithecus afarensis] was one of man's ancestors, you fashion perfectly formed human hands and feet (and a pensive look) on a statue of a primate.
And the number one cool thing about being an evolutionist is:
1. You don't have to make any distinction between fact and wild speculation.
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I have a video I watched yesterday that addresses why this get-out-of-guilt-free business is WRONG
It's not a get out of guilt free....
Romans Chapter6 American Standard Bible (ignore the parenthesed letters)
1(A)What shall we say then? Are we to (B)continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2(C)May it never be! How shall we who (D)died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been (E)baptized into (F)Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been (G)buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was (H)raised from the dead through the (I)glory of the Father, so we too might walk in (J)newness of life.
5For (K)if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our (L)old self was (M)crucified with Him, in order that our (N)body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7for (O)he who has died is freed from sin.
8Now (P)if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been (Q)raised from the dead, is never to die again; (R)death no longer is master over Him.
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be (S)dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin (T)reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on (U)presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but (V)present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For (W)sin shall not (X)be master over you, for (Y)you are not under law but (Z)under grace.
15What then? (AA)Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? (AB)May it never be!
16Do you not (AC)know that when you present yourselves to someone as (AD)slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of (AE)sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But (AF)thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that (AG)form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been (AH)freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19(AI)I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh For just (AJ)as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20For (AK)when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21Therefore what (AL)benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is (AM)death.
22But now having been (AN)freed from sin and (AO)enslaved to God, you derive your (AP)benefit, resulting in sanctification, and (AQ)the outcome, eternal life.
23For the wages of (AR)sin is death, but the free gift of God is (AS)eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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There is this period of time in the Autumn called the High Holy days for Jews. It is the period between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, and we call them the Days of Awe. During this period of time, we honor our dead and we atone for our sins. If we have done something to hurt someone or for some other reason should need forgiveness from our fellow man, we spend these days doing so, so we can start the new year (Yom Kippur) with a clean slate. Ideally, we should make every effort to correct our mistakes, but as Lady Gaga says, you can fix a broken mirror but that crack will always be there. Not all Jews do this...I attempt to. But I go one step further...I try to correct these mistakes as soon as I realize they were mistakes. Being a "good person" is hard work, and I sometimes wonder if I am doing everything I can to be the best person I can be. Someone expecting forgiveness from g-d from something they did to me...they come up short in my book, because I at least attempt to take responsibility for my actions.
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I also censor my criticisms, btw, to make them more "gentle" so I don't come across as a flaming b*tch.
This is one reason you are not a psychiatrist. You would know that it is not the person's fault but part of the disease process. You would also know that the person with a mental illness is helpless against the illness and there is nothing they can do about it.
You would also know how to communicate and approach a mentally ill person, so you don't scare them or make them feel you will hurt them.
You would also know that a mental illness is JUST a chemical imbalance. Calling someone NUTS/CRAZY/PSYCHOPATH who is mentally ill is like calling a black person *bleep*! Just so you know.
You are a very unstable individual that should be kept away from others!
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I see a bad car accident coming your way, and queen can confirm there was a bad accident that came her way. I didn't quote anything when I said it. Just because I am psychic and I can see things doesn't mean I am wishing them or sending them your way.
You're a loon! ::) How is it psychic when you didn't get the person right (the threat was directed at Falconer)? How is it psychic when this "bad accident" you predicted turned out to leave our car perfectly untouched? People who pray or claim to be psychic are way too easily impressed...
If you are psychic, why don't you pick out the next Powerball numbers rather than mooching off the government? Just a thought. :thumbsup:
She is more then a loon she is a psychopath!
HAHA thank God you're not a psychiatrist and besides I think only a psychiatrist can make that diagnosis, so hush.
Roflmao ! You don't tell me what to do LOL! And further more you don't know what the definition of a psychopath is apparently! The psychopath is a social predator. He is ruthless, manipulative and often charming. "Once referred to as “moral imbeciles,” psychopaths exhibit a marked lack of conscience. They are callous, remorseless and spectacularly self-centered, willing to use and abuse others to achieve their ends, and they are inclined to blame others, including their victims, for their problems and bad behaviour."
Read more at Suite101: Personality Traits of a Psychopath: Characteristics of Sociopathic Personality Disorder http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/personality_traits_of_a_psychopath#ixzz0uj2afK2o
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God healed me of the psychological trauma of being raped, so I don't feel the pain from it anymore. I have true freedom through being able to forgive the person that hurt me.
Yes, in general it's good if we can forgive those who have hurt us...however, there's a certain degree of hurt where it's understandable not to forgive a person. I don't think it should be like a bitterness that consumes you and ruins your life if you got raped, beaten, abused, etc...however, it's OKAY to say, "What was done to me wasn't right. I didn't deserve it. That person shouldn't have done it to me, NO EXCUSES." Should we forgive Hitler for killing millions of Jews? No. That's an extreme example, but you get my drift.
By your standards, everyone would go to hell.
By MY standards, no one should go to hell. Good thing this is also reality's standards (no one goes to hell because it is imaginary). You can tell hell was made up by man when you compare it to the many other religions that invented such a place and by how cruel humanity used to be...have you ever been to a torture museum? That sh*t really happened. Good thing we've evolved to do away with CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT in the civilized countries...not the Middle East, of course. They're still stoning, hanging, and torturing people over there. IN THE NAME OF ALLAH.
I'm thankful to believe and trust in a God that gives people another chance.
Not once a person is dead, though, right? Do you not think if there really was a hell, millions of people would be mournful of their mistake? Do you not think that billions are crying out to Jesus right now as their spiritual flesh is being scorched: "Please forgive me, Lord. I could not see the truth on Earth, I am forever sorry for rejecting you. Please, Father, this pain is unbearable; I've never been so terrified or tortured...please!!!!" :crybaby2: :crybaby2:
Oh wait, GOD CAN'T HEAR THEM. But of course he is aware that such pleadings are going on, being omniscient and all. I hope it doesn't ruin y'alls party in heaven realizing there are truly repentant people suffering forever. Don't delude yourself into thinking that there wouldn't be!!!
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You would also know that the person with a mental illness is helpless against the illness and there is nothing they can do about it.
You don't fit this definition, though. Like I've said before, people with *true* mental illness don't hang out in forums for kicks (TROLLS DO). They have other things to do, like repeatedly rock back and forth in the corner.
It's pretty shameful of you to compare yourself to those who are REALLY mentally helpless.
I think the reason Schizophrenics are so sweet and nice is because they are truly blessed by the Lord. They have been given a gift to see the spirtual world. It is not easy to come by.
:angry7: There's a reason we LOCK UP people like this. They're not living in reality; therefore, they are a danger to themselves and/or others.
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You must deserve forgiveness to receive it..And sorry hurt a child kill a human and you forfeit forgiveness..Plain and simple.
I am not bitter with the sicko who took my innocence I am sickened I am asked to forgive him when to this day the sicko continues to most likely rain his hell on children and he sees no wrong in it..So forgive this monster HELL NO!!
If your god thinks I am wrong so be it i could not stand next to Hilter,killers,rapists or any other such atrocity in the afterlife..to harm anyone is disgusting and you deserve nothing but to have what you did done to you over and over for eternity..
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it's OKAY to say, "What was done to me wasn't right. I didn't deserve it.
you're right about that, it wasn't right and I didn't deserve it. and forgiving that person is for my benefit, not theirs. they don't even know i forgave them. as for how God judges them, that's for God to decide not me...however, me personally; i prayed to God through tears of pain for someone that hurt me as scripture said and because of that God helped me to forgive them. and my prayers were simply that God help this person to see what they did was wrong and for God to show this man that he didn't have to live in sin but could be saved. i don't want this person to continue raping people so i prayed he would get saved!
i was freed from a painful circumstance, and in the process my prayers helped someone heal the issues in their own life so that whatever psychological issues they suffered from, they would no longer be in bondage and slave to it anymore!
but i feel like i'm trying to explain to someone who is afraid of heights, how awesome a feeling it is to stand on a bridge hundreds of feet above the ground and jump, free falling several feet until a rubber cord jerks you back up and then you free fall again. sounds exciting and exhilarating to me, but how can i interpret that feeling to someone who would only be petrified to the point of tears of loss of bowel control!? it's impossible :dontknow:
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but i feel like i'm trying to explain to someone who is afraid of heights, how awesome a feeling it is to stand on a bridge hundreds of feet above the ground and jump, free falling several feet until a rubber cord jerks you back up and then you free fall again.
Plenty of people have gotten over tough stuff without having to rely on a "higher power". I can see the appeal of one, certainly, because sometimes it IS hard knowing that you only have yourself to rely on. If you're not strong enough yet to make it through on your own, believing that some all-good paternal figure is playing a part may be the only motivation that seems to work for a person to get over their hardships. I don't think this is really a "benefit" of religion, because most people WOULD be able to get over their issues in some other way.
I think believing there is a paternal figure watching out for you is easier than having to do through all of the work on your own (even though the person IS ultimately still alone, they are convinced they're not).
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he never killed people without just cause (murder) and he always sent someone to warn people of impending judgment so as to give them the chance to repent.
This sounds real good until I whip out some unjustified killing from the Bible:
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24)
So 42 little kids were brutally ripped to shreds just because they made fun of someone who was bald!! Don't say it wasn't god; it's quite obvious the "moral" of this story is don't make fun of a prophet or god will allow a whole mess of children to be consumed by bears!
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36)
Does this make ANY flippin' sense? So a dude doesn't want to be violent and hit a prophet and god thinks the "just" punishment for this understandable "disobedience" should be death by a lion??
Then we have all the people god instructs US to kill for ridiculous reasons:
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)
Note the key word ALL. So if your parents beat you, molested you, raped you, left you for dead on the street...don't ever say a bad word about them or you're worthy of DEATH in god's eyes.
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
Yes, your sex life is THAT important to god.
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death. (Exodus 31:12-15)
Screw putting food on the table for your family. If a man works on the wrong day of the week, he deserves to die!
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)
If your dad did something bad, you deserve to die just in case you wind up like him.
Merciless killing instructed by god:
Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Ezekiel 9:5)
:notworthy: :notworthy:
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18)
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29)
This is just a TASTE of the god you worship! Still think it was always "justified"?
:thumbsup: Agreed, these die hard worshipers tend to forget the dark side of the bible. Esp. when they will following faith only & sacrifice their only child in the name of god. Then will be rewarded in which god will come in to stop the sacrifice because the father was willing to follow his god no question. I don't see a loving god, I see a cat toying with his/her prey. :bootyshake:
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thumbsup Agreed, these die hard worshipers tend to forget the dark side of the bible. Esp. when they will following faith only & sacrifice their only child in the name of god. Then will be rewarded in which god will come in to stop the sacrifice because the father was willing to follow his god no question. I don't see a loving god, I see a cat toying with his/her prey. bootyshake
except that i replied to all those cherry picked scriptures. and it doesn't show a dark side of God.....it shows sins committed by men in glaring light. the light of God that is just and will not tolerate sin.
but i guess you decided to ignore all that because it's easier for you to believe the nonsense and lies about the bible that spews out of the mouth of skeptics like vomit. lap it up. i personally don't like the taste of vomit.
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God is perfect. Everything that is written in The Bible is completely true and accurate.
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God is perfect. Everything that is written in The Bible is completely true and accurate.
ROFLMAO
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You must deserve forgiveness to receive it..And sorry hurt a child kill a human and you forfeit forgiveness..Plain and simple.
I am not bitter with the sicko who took my innocence I am sickened I am asked to forgive him when to this day the sicko continues to most likely rain his hell on children and he sees no wrong in it..So forgive this monster HELL NO!!
If your god thinks I am wrong so be it i could not stand next to Hilter,killers,rapists or any other such atrocity in the afterlife..to harm anyone is disgusting and you deserve nothing but to have what you did done to you over and over for eternity..
I understand your view point, but just think: nobody is perfect, therefore there cAnt be a heaven or hell. no wrong doing is worse than another. but everyone will pay for their wrong, but i doubt for eternity. maybe until one learns or understands his/her wrong. if you steal, you will be stolen from. it's not karma, its a cycle, everything revolves in a cycle.
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There is no such thing as perfection everything has faults the idea of perfection is nice but there is no such thing..
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You don't have to be perfect to get into heaven... :angel11:
lets say, you go to heaven. you never sinned except you drink alot. another person goes. they never sinned but gambled. anotheperson goes. they never sinned except they committed adultry.
Now the paradise god has set up for you has gambling, drinking, and adultry. with more people the list gets longer. but the point is... if anyone went to heaven it would be just like earth. so is it still heaven? and if so why would god bring you to destroy his home, after we've destroyed the one he made for us forever?
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Roses are not perfect they all have a defect thats the beauty in it..You cannot make it perfect..
Water nope it can be green have bacteria in it this and that and we can try but surely something will make imperfect
Colors not perfect they are colors they are changeable they have imperfections
Imperfections are true beauty
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Roses are not perfect they all have a defect thats the beauty in it..You cannot make it perfect..
Water nope it can be green have bacteria in it this and that and we can try but surely something will make imperfect
Colors not perfect they are colors they are changeable they have imperfections
Imperfections are true beauty
i gotta go with you on this, pretty well spoken. ur right. nd roses die. water evaporates . and no color stays the same forever...
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perfection ceased to exist when we got the knowldge of good and evil : the ability to judge. that's why we are mortal and all must die. the bible teaches us that god warned us of this and eve disobeyed seeking god's power - judgement
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The Bible is God's word, it is HisStory (history) from Genesis to Revelation - and you can see where He is a faithful, covenant-keeping God who fulfills all His promises; fulfilling the one where His only Son, Yahshua, became the sacrificial Lamb, becoming flesh and dying on the cross that we could all be saved from sin by His grace. He set apart His people and promised the land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; that land was NOT promised to Ishmael nor his descendants. Therefore Israel belongs to the Jewish people and will remain God's chosen land, set apart for Him. HisStory will come to a fitting climax when Yahshua returns as the Warrior King, and reclaim Jerusalem where both Jew and Gentile will become one. And He is coming soon!
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Honestly God never said he made anything Perfect, he said it was Good in his eyes. Shoot, I look at the birds and clouds and Oceans and rain and Flowers and Fruit on trees...etc and it is all good in my eyes.
I agree 100%. but i dnt think good and evil even exist. good an evil are both one letter away from god and devil (irrelevant). in the bible the knowledge of good and evil is what we got when eve ate the fruit, seeking god's power. then decieved adam into the same. the truth is, god created us in his image and we have always tried to be like him. we create artficial versions of what he has before us. robots creation reminds me of god creating man. the movie terminator plays this out as if the same thing we've done to god, machines will do to us.
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but i dnt think good and evil even exist.
What do you categorize the actions of persons who, open their home to foster children to nurture and care for them, and the persons who open their home to foster children and rape and abuse them? Are both actions of the same caliber? How you do define those actions in contrast to one another if not by the actions of good and evil?
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but i dnt think good and evil even exist.
What do you categorize the actions of persons who, open their home to foster children to nurture and care for them, and the persons who open their home to foster children and rape and abuse them? Are both actions of the same caliber? How you do define those actions in contrast to one another if not by the actions of good and evil?
bottom line, if you treat others how you want to be treated you will do well. that's what i follow, i used to do alot of wrong but i learned from it. every person deserves respect and consideration of their views as human beings. in this case - if one is acting out of care for another life he will respect it. the one who dosen't will eventually learn from his actions. life is a cycle. therefore the terms good and evil are not literal, but judgemental.
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So in other words...if I term some action as evil it is only my judgmental opinion. So anyone doing anything "wrong" such as murder rape and theft....are not doing evil things as long as it is their opinion that it's ok to do so. And I should respect the murderers view as a human being that their actions were justified. I should just hope they learn from it and not consider it an evil act.
Hmmm interesting.
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So in other words...if I term some action as evil it is only my judgmental opinion. So anyone doing anything "wrong" such as murder rape and theft....are not doing evil things as long as it is their opinion that it's ok to do so. And I should respect the murderers view as a human being that their actions were justified. I should just hope they learn from it and not consider it an evil act.
Hmmm interesting.
it's not about respecting ones actions or saying everyone is right. they will lean from thier actions in the log run and its not about justifying their actions, things will happen, bad will always come because we created it. Everything we do comes back pleasurable or less favorable depending on our actions.
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You are looking at this from a limited perspective. You think...hey I learned from my mistakes, so can other people. I see in your post that you have the right idea about accepting that people do make mistakes and we shouldn't grind them into the ground for it. However, it's very naive to think that everyone will learn from their mistakes. Certain behaviors require judgment by the law in order to provide safety to the rest of society. Some criminals can be reformed, some can't. Good and Evil exist in this world, people make a choice to act on good or to act on evil......if the evil they commit puts people in danger the law has a right to judge them and put them behind bars.
You are right about the golden rule...treat people as you like to be treated. Not everybody does that though and you can't make them. You are right about things coming back around to us...the bible says so...you reap what sow. Evil actions create evil repercussions.
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You are looking at this from a limited perspective. You think...hey I learned from my mistakes, so can other people. I see in your post that you have the right idea about accepting that people do make mistakes and we shouldn't grind them into the ground for it. However, it's very naive to think that everyone will learn from their mistakes. Certain behaviors require judgment by the law in order to provide safety
i agree, the problem is, this countries laws don't focus on that. they focus on what they can tax and how to get more money. just look at everything... look how things are getting.
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You are looking at this from a limited perspective. You think...hey I learned from my mistakes, so can other people. I see in your post that you have the right idea about accepting that people do make mistakes and we shouldn't grind them into the ground for it. However, it's very naive to think that everyone will learn from their mistakes. Certain behaviors require judgment by the law in order to provide safety
i agree, the problem is, this countries laws don't focus on that. they focus on what they can tax and how to get more money. just look at everything... look how things are getting.
Well I can't argue with that! ;)
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The Bible was writen by man , inspired by the All mighty.
I believe is intent was to give us guideline in which to live. Like everything manufactor today come with instruction so God gave us the Bible.
I don't believe that there is anyone on the planet that does not believe in the All Mighty. Even so-call Atheists cry out to God when there are in an airplane crashin.
I think our goal is to be open to the truth, and learn it his works for ourselves , not have it spoon feed to us as truth. Cuz you never know the thoughts of the flawed human feeding it to you.
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Even so-call Atheists cry out to God when there are in an airplane crashin.
Uh...no. Only a weak person would think that Magical Sky Man can save them... conveniently forgetting that it is Magical Sky Man who allowed it to happen in the first place, right?
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Roses are not perfect they all have a defect thats the beauty in it..You cannot make it perfect..
Water nope it can be green have bacteria in it this and that and we can try but surely something will make imperfect
Colors not perfect they are colors they are changeable they have imperfections
Imperfections are true beauty
Omg that was SO SWEET and it touched my heart and made me feel beauitful :') anyways...
We don't call u aithesit, Christains call people who do NOT believe in God, thats who is called a aithesit
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We don't call u aithesit, Christains call people who do NOT believe in God, thats who is called a aithesit
Christians don't "call" anyone anything because an atheist isn't a dirty name, it's just a label for convenience. Oh, and it might help your credibility a little more if you learned how to spell atheist to begin with. lol
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The Bible is God's word, it is HisStory (history) from Genesis to Revelation - and you can see where He is a faithful, covenant-keeping God who fulfills all His promises; fulfilling the one where His only Son, Yahshua, became the sacrificial Lamb, becoming flesh and dying on the cross that we could all be saved from sin by His grace. He set apart His people and promised the land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; that land was NOT promised to Ishmael nor his descendants. Therefore Israel belongs to the Jewish people and will remain God's chosen land, set apart for Him. HisStory will come to a fitting climax when Yahshua returns as the Warrior King, and reclaim Jerusalem where both Jew and Gentile will become one. And He is coming soon!
Well said. I believe He is coming soon as well. I have been reading from messianic (sp) Jews for a few years. They have such understanding of the Bible.
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People who don't believe it's true shouldn't be called atheists. It's called being secular if you are a Christian. I'm a Hindu. I don't believe anything the Bible says because it belongs to a relgion I don't agree with. That doesn't make me an atheist, and it shouldn't make you one.
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People who don't believe it's true shouldn't be called atheists. It's called being secular if you are a Christian. I'm a Hindu. I don't believe anything the Bible says because it belongs to a relgion I don't agree with. That doesn't make me an atheist, and it shouldn't make you one.
I was going to mention this too because that post had reasoning problems. Christianity is just one of the many popular religions. Not being christian does not automatically make one an atheist.
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People who don't believe it's true shouldn't be called atheists. It's called being secular if you are a Christian. I'm a Hindu. I don't believe anything the Bible says because it belongs to a relgion I don't agree with. That doesn't make me an atheist, and it shouldn't make you one.
The Bible doesn't necessarily have to be a book of true stories for someone to be a Christian, either. The original point of this topic when I posted it was that regardless of whether or not the stories are true, whether those events actually occurred, doesn't make the lesson learned any less significant. The importance of the book is not whether it is factual but what you can gain from reading it. The important thing, to me, is reading the book and coming to your own conclusions as to what you gain from reading it... whether it is a continued disbelief in a higher power/deity, a strengthened belief, a better moral code, or the conclusion that you were wrong and there isn't a g-d or g-ds. I frown upon being spoon fed what to believe... we were all equipped with the capacity for reason for, ahem, a reason. Anyone who would automatically label someone as an atheist for not believing the Bible is factual would be wrong. I don't believe the stories in the Tanakh are factual, yet I am strong in my Jewish faith... but then again, I believe I am rare in that I am all inclusive when it comes to things... I don't look down upon those who believe differently.
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The Bible is God's word, it is HisStory (history) from Genesis to Revelation - and you can see where He is a faithful, covenant-keeping God who fulfills all His promises; fulfilling the one where His only Son, Yahshua, became the sacrificial Lamb, becoming flesh and dying on the cross that we could all be saved from sin by His grace. He set apart His people and promised the land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; that land was NOT promised to Ishmael nor his descendants. Therefore Israel belongs to the Jewish people and will remain God's chosen land, set apart for Him. HisStory will come to a fitting climax when Yahshua returns as the Warrior King, and reclaim Jerusalem where both Jew and Gentile will become one. And He is coming soon!
Well said. I believe He is coming soon as well. I have been reading from messianic (sp) Jews for a few years. They have such understanding of the Bible.
Very well said. I too have been reading and studying the Messianic Jews for four years now. I always had a problem with the King James version, even after reading it front to back, twice, so I began reading the Torah written by a Messianic Jew. I now understand much more than I ever had before.
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we are not created in god's image as most people would think of this, no it has a different meaning. we don't look like god and we dont do things like god and we are not perfect but what is meant by this is we are created in god's image through the soul and the good that our souls can bring in to this world and to our selves and to others . We are made of energy and so is god he is all the energy that exists and that's what was meant by we are created by god's image.
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If you want to talk about magic, I'm to believe that everything was created by some gasess in space. Isn't that magic, and all that is just theorical, not even proven.
And god letting a plane crash is just life. It's like when your children are grown you let them deal with the world on the own. And who to say God didn't make sure that those he want to stay alive made sure they missed that flight.Even so-call Atheists cry out to God when there are in an airplane crashin.
Uh...no. Only a weak person would think that Magical Sky Man can save them... conveniently forgetting that it is Magical Sky Man who allowed it to happen in the first place, right?
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Why is it that many who believe the Bible isn't 100% the truth call those who don't atheists?
Because it's the Word of God, and if god is supposed to be perfect, why would he give us an imperfect book??
lol how is it the word of god if it was written by man
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Why is it that many who believe the Bible isn't 100% the truth call those who don't atheists?
Because it's the Word of God, and if god is supposed to be perfect, why would he give us an imperfect book??
lol how is it the word of god if it was written by man
It was written by these men as told by God what to write. Also, the Bible is not an imperfect book. In order to understand several odd things that happen, we have to read from the beginning and what events lead up to the events in question. We may not understand things now, but later we will, in God's time.
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If you want to talk about magic, I'm to believe that everything was created by some gasess in space.
You don't have to believe it; there is an abundance of scientific evidence that proves the various elements of our universe formed naturally, no god required. But you keep on denying science while simultaneously taking advantage of it; that seems to be working for you. :thumbsup:
Isn't that magic, and all that is just theorical, not even proven.
You don't know how to spell the word "gases" and you don't know what the word theory means; yep, you are officially not qualified to speak of anything scientific. Run along now.
And god letting a plane crash is just life. It's like when your children are grown you let them deal with the world on the own. And who to say God didn't make sure that those he want to stay alive made sure they missed that flight.
Such simplemindedness! This is really your argument? That is bull that any human parent would allow their adult child to die if they could prevent it, and you know it. As for some people missing the flight thanks to god, that is a load of cowpie once again. You really expect me to think your god is a good guy when 2 people live and 300 others die a terrifying, gruesome death?? You need to get shaken if you think that is okay.
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why are you so damn rude?
Troll/flamebait post. Ignore this.
Edit: Marie deleted her post. As usual. Heh.
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The bible is the true inspired word of God, writen by men chosen to do the same. If we beleiev and acccpt it's message, God will reveal himself to us to allow us to know personally that he is real, and wants to live within us.
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I can not imagine life without Christ- The Bible is so amazing in that it is simple yet complex. C S Lewis went out to prove there was no God and through his studies became a Christian. He is reponsible for so many books that help Christians. Mere Christianity is a book that has led many so called intellectuals to give their hearts to Christ. I recommend all those that are doubting whether God exists to read Mere Christianity
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The bible is the true inspired word of God, writen by men chosen to do the same. If we beleiev and acccpt it's message, God will reveal himself to us to allow us to know personally that he is real, and wants to live within us.
The only thing that is correct here is "written by men".
I can not imagine life without Christ- The Bible is so amazing in that it is simple yet complex.
Maybe you should study it more to see the massive inconsistencies and true horrific nature of your god then. Old Testament ftw!
C S Lewis went out to prove there was no God and through his studies became a Christian.
Here's a quick note for you- any christian (or any religious follower) who says they were once an atheist/agnostic were never truly an atheist/agnostic to begin with. To say one subscribes to a realistic world and then jumps into the world of fantasy and dogma after doing their "research" is just flat out wrong. I have read some of Lewis' work. It is worded quite well and in many cases he makes a decent argument, but he's one to align himself with one of the many religions. That part is the most troubling to any rational mind. He was never an atheist.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/inniss_8_2.htm
"By not appealing to faith or the divine word of the Bible, Lewis strives to put Christianity, and therefore Christians, on the same intellectual levels with science and rationalists. This approach is soothing to believers suffering from feelings of inferiority, who rarely note that Lewis's logic immediately collapses under even the most cursory critique"
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Here's a quick note for you- any atheist (or any non religious person ) who says they were once a believer were never truly a believer to begin with. To say one subscribes to a realistic world and then jumps into the world of fantasy and dogma after doing their "research" is just flat out wrong. That part is the most troubling to any rational mind. They were never a believer.
Aren't you 29 now? Stop acting like you are 6! Your plagiarized paragraph is untrue and you look very dim for writing it. It's the equivalent of a schoolyard taunt, nothing more.
It's ironic to the core.
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Too funny! She's probably off of her meds again since she's deleting her posts more often now.
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Too funny! She's probably off of her meds again since she's deleting her posts more often now.
Yea, you should of seen me earlier today in my car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKNzEvK_5u8
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I think the bible is truth. It is coming to pass each and everyday.
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I believe that the Bible is absolutely 100% true.
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Too funny! She's probably off of her meds again since she's deleting her posts more often now.
You know what this is, it is Cyberbullying and you NEED to QUIT.
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Here's a quick note for you- any atheist (or any non religious person ) who says they were once a believer were never truly a believer to begin with. To say one subscribes to a realistic world and then jumps into the world of fantasy and dogma after doing their "research" is just flat out wrong. That part is the most troubling to any rational mind. They were never a believer.
Aren't you 29 now? Stop acting like you are 6! Your plagiarized paragraph is untrue and you look very dim for writing it. It's the equivalent of a schoolyard taunt, nothing more.
It's ironic to the core.
Quit Cyberbullying.
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Quit Cyberbullying.
Once you stop trolling this forum with your garbage, I will stop. But that isn't going to happen, right? Stupid internet trolls...why am I even typing this to one? I feel soiled.
*IGNORED*
I believe that the Bible is absolutely 100% true.
I think the bible is truth. It is coming to pass each and everyday.
Why do you think this?
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Yes, I believe the Bible is TRUTH. I would rather live and believe in the Bible, God and Jesus, and when I die-----FIND OUT THAT I AM WRONG-----Than NOT to believe it, and when I die----FIND OUT THAT I AM WRONG, and I AM STANDING BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST!!
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Well Freepcmoney (wth due respect to your beliefs), considering the infinite possibilities of what happens when you die, do you not think it's a bit naive to put all your eggs in one basket and just accept one ancient after-life idea and disregard the other million possibilities (many with similar ancient texts as your belief system has) people have thought up throughout the world?
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Once you stop trolling this forum with your garbage, I will stop. But that isn't going to happen, right? Stupid internet trolls...why am I even typing this to one? I feel soiled.
*IGNORED*
One mans trash is another mans treasure :D
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Yes, I believe the Bible is TRUTH. I would rather live and believe in the Bible, God and Jesus, and when I die-----FIND OUT THAT I AM WRONG-----Than NOT to believe it, and when I die----FIND OUT THAT I AM WRONG, and I AM STANDING BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST!!
I agree, no one knows for sure and can't say they do. If I die and there's nothing, who cares, I sure won't, if I die and there's God then that is cool. I will find out if there is a God when I die, If there isn't a God, then I will find out nothing.
I do know that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. When we die, we have energy that leaves us and lives for eternity but it won't have a conscience and that is Scientific fact.
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Here's a quick note for you- any atheist (or any non religious person ) who says they were once a believer were never truly a believer to begin with. To say one subscribes to a realistic world and then jumps into the world of fantasy and dogma after doing their "research" is just flat out wrong. That part is the most troubling to any rational mind. They were never a believer.
Aren't you 29 now? Stop acting like you are 6! Your plagiarized paragraph is untrue and you look very dim for writing it. It's the equivalent of a schoolyard taunt, nothing more.
It's ironic to the core.
Practice what you preach, miss
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As I come back here and read these responses, I wonder how many people have actually read the original post before posting their response. This topic isn't asking if the Bible is true, but stating that it doesn't matter. It makes me want to :BangHead: when I read a response saying "the bible is true" when that isn't even what the core of the topic is.
Note: to get paid for your 30 posts, you need to put some thought into those posts. There hasn't been any real thought put to the posts in this thread since it had its first run months ago. I'm considering locking it. :angry7:
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Something I'm having a hard time understanding here...
Why is it that many who believe the Bible isn't 100% the truth call those who don't atheists? I am not an atheist, and I don't believe that everything in the Bible is the cold hard truth.
The bible is supposed to be the word of God. Pure and unaltered.
From what I can understand, the Bible is open to interpretation.
Yeah people interpret everything differently. I get things out of stories others don't.
I believe firmly that the Bible is a book of lessons that can be learned, but each individual person must read it themselves to determine what those lessons are. Do I believe Moses parted the Red Sea? Hell, no. But I do believe it is important to step forward with conviction before you enter into dangerous territory.
I believe Moses parted the red sea, with the power from God
And, most importantly, I believe it is not up to me to "fix" anyone or "save" anyone. I believe g-d does not wish for us to be blindly following a faith because we were scared into it, but to research, read, and make a rational choice as to how to live our lives. I believe wholeheartedly in the golden rule. I wish more people who claim to be following in the footsteps of Jesus (in whom I personally do not believe as a personal savior, but to each their own) would actually live their lives by the example they claim him to have left.
I am not trying to fix or save anyone but I am sick of getting treated like crap for my beliefs and that's the only reason debates have lasted a long time with me. I could care less what you believe but don't try and tell me what I believe is wrong or that I am ignorant and a child because I don't believe what you do. Some of the things people say to me makes me what to reach right through the computer scren and punhc them dead i the face. You don't speak to people like that.
Well we are human and Jesus was perfect and sometimes it is hard to be perfect when we are not. I like the WWJD and should think that before engaging in anything.
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Personally, I can't believe g-d is all powerful.
Otherwise, if g-d is running the shots, then why is the world in such disarray? Don't try to say it is the devil's doing, because I don't believe in the devil, and besides that, the devil is a moot point if g-d is all powerful. G-d created the devil.
And g-d is faaaaar from perfect.
We are supposed to be created in g-d's image. I honestly can't fathom that if I was created in g-d's image that g-d could be even remotely perfect... since I know that I am far from it. Also, g-d has so many faults, like pride, envy, and greed (having no other g-d's before g-d), wrath (hellfire and the flood to name two), sloth (free will, anyone? G-d doesn't want to control us except through fear), and lust (impregnating a virgin...lol, I'm reaching here.). A little more time and I can think of one to fit gluttony as well...
I agree with you, queen. Honestly, I do. I just can't help but wonder these things. I can't understand why, when given the capacity to think, people don't use this "g-d given gift" and actually think about these things. There is so much that doesn't make sense. And I couldn't explain intelligently why I have faith other than the fact that it feels right to me. I won't get offended, though, when presented with an intelligent argument contrary to my beliefs. Like I've said before...I could be wrong. All I can do is live my life to the best of my ability and have faith that the g-d I believe in has taken notice of that.
It's called limited minds and watch what you say about God.
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We are supposed to be created in g-d's image. I honestly can't fathom that if I was created in g-d's image that g-d could be even remotely perfect... since I know that I am far from it.
What I get out of the People were created in his image...was the way we look and that's it. We have hair, fingers, toes, arms, legs, a head, and so on. Since we were created in his image but not his image then that leaves me to think that God doesn't have to poop or get pimples and many of the other things that happens to the body.
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Perhaps I haven't been clear.
My belief is that g-d is not active in this world.
God is active in the world but First you have to be a believer of him...One of the Christian religions is what you need to follow and believe in Jesus and that he died for your sins. So now that we filtered out some people...they have to have never blasphemized.
When you are done filtering out all the people that are God's enemy, then you have the people that God is active in this world with. If you don't believe in God or want God or worship another, then guess what, he don't know you or will help you. That's what I think.
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Also, we're freaking MAMMALS. And mammals are animals!
.
Were human and humans are not animals.
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. And we all know exactly what it's going to be like: it's going to be just like before we were born.
It will be like having no brain, since I have no idea what it was like before I was born
Which brings up another very good point: if you didn't exist billions of years before your birth, what makes you think you'll exist after?!
Uh, cause God hadn't created me yet and whose to say I didn't exist before I was born, I could of been chilling in heaven and came to earth to live a life to get an appreciation for heaven.
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Something I'm having a hard time understanding here...
Why is it that many who believe the Bible isn't 100% the truth call those who don't atheists? I am not an atheist, and I don't believe that everything in the Bible is the cold hard truth.
From what I can understand, the Bible is open to interpretation. My Bible is written in a language that historically didn't use vowels, and therefore can be interpreted thousands of ways. There are stories that are left out of the Bible (i.e. Lilith, the story of Hanukkah, etc.) yet those legends and holidays remain (what do you think a lullaby is?).
...and there are many that have some major things wrong. Example...Jehovah is not g-d's name. The name of g-d is signified by four Hebrew consonants and to aid readers, the vowels from the word "Adonai" meaning "my lord" were transposed on to those four consonants; thus, the pronunciation became "Yehovah." Does that make everything the Jehovah's Witnesses believe incorrect?
I believe firmly that the Bible is a book of lessons that can be learned, but each individual person must read it themselves to determine what those lessons are. Do I believe Moses parted the Red Sea? Hell, no. But I do believe it is important to step forward with conviction before you enter into dangerous territory.
And, most importantly, I believe it is not up to me to "fix" anyone or "save" anyone. I believe g-d does not wish for us to be blindly following a faith because we were scared into it, but to research, read, and make a rational choice as to how to live our lives. I believe wholeheartedly in the golden rule. I wish more people who claim to be following in the footsteps of Jesus (in whom I personally do not believe as a personal savior, but to each their own) would actually live their lives by the example they claim him to have left.
Now this is a subject that not many people will talk about but oh well here it goes.
I cant believe that one person started the whole world just think if adam and eve had one kid then the other then we are all related menaing alot of nasty people are doing it with their family member, Is that relly what this world is made of? I dont know how we all came about but would hate to thing I am having sex with my own brother and that is just sick. There is some thing some one isnt telling us. The bible is just the words of a man/women. Who knows all I know is I am in this hell world and I live everyday to the best of my ability.
That is just my observation of a messed up world.
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One mans trash is another mans treasure :D
Speaking of your man here? lol
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This really pissed me off, how dare you speak to someone like that...you are a real can't say the word. I bet you get punched alot, is all I can say.
Quit being so damn rude, mean and hateful to people that have beliefs that are not your own.
Geez, your life must be infused with violence, as you are constantly bringing it up. They have help lines and shelters for that, you know.
As for being rude, yes it was a little mean, but you have to understand that I am tired of seeing people say stupid things. They need to get called on it, or they will never learn.
hose to say I didn't exist before I was born, I could of been chilling in heaven and came to earth to live a life to get an appreciation for heaven.
How many times do we have to go over this; that is a MORMON belief, are you Mormon?? Even if it was a regular old Christian belief, it's still ridiculous. So god loves us so much that he decided to gamble everyone's salvation away by sending us to to Earth?! *Think* before you type!
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I just read the last two pages of posts and it sure sounds like a lot of bitter folks out there. It was just a question to get your opinion. You guys need to be a little nicer. The Bible is what your perception of it is. If I perceive it to be junk, then to me that's what it is. If someone else perceives it to be the all in all, then that's what it is for them. Personally, I use discernment when reading it. If it feels right I can deal with it.
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I just read the last two pages of posts and it sure sounds like a lot of bitter folks out there. It was just a question to get your opinion. You guys need to be a little nicer.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Something I'm having a hard time understanding here...
Why is it that many who believe the Bible isn't 100% the truth call those who don't atheists? I am not an atheist, and I don't believe that everything in the Bible is the cold hard truth.
From what I can understand, the Bible is open to interpretation. My Bible is written in a language that historically didn't use vowels, and therefore can be interpreted thousands of ways. There are stories that are left out of the Bible (i.e. Lilith, the story of Hanukkah, etc.) yet those legends and holidays remain (what do you think a lullaby is?).
...and there are many that have some major things wrong. Example...Jehovah is not g-d's name. The name of g-d is signified by four Hebrew consonants and to aid readers, the vowels from the word "Adonai" meaning "my lord" were transposed on to those four consonants; thus, the pronunciation became "Yehovah." Does that make everything the Jehovah's Witnesses believe incorrect?
I believe firmly that the Bible is a book of lessons that can be learned, but each individual person must read it themselves to determine what those lessons are. Do I believe Moses parted the Red Sea? Hell, no. But I do believe it is important to step forward with conviction before you enter into dangerous territory.
And, most importantly, I believe it is not up to me to "fix" anyone or "save" anyone. I believe g-d does not wish for us to be blindly following a faith because we were scared into it, but to research, read, and make a rational choice as to how to live our lives. I believe wholeheartedly in the golden rule. I wish more people who claim to be following in the footsteps of Jesus (in whom I personally do not believe as a personal savior, but to each their own) would actually live their lives by the example they claim him to have left.
First off, I have to say I'm sorry I missed this original discussion, it would have been a good one to participate in.
Secondly, kudos on posting something like this, it took a lot of guts considering how people react to discussions like this (which I've never understood; as if the faith of others can somehow threaten your own personal faith).
And finally, the meat and potatoes. It seems to me that the faith of those who have problems with the faith of others not matching theirs in any way don't have a very strong faith at all. Were their faith actually strong and based on real understanding, they wouldn't feel threatened by dissenting opinions. Again, even those who know the history of the Bible and the different languages involved and how it all came together and feel that somehow the version we ended up with is the absolute Word of God and that those who don't somehow aren't in have what I can only call a very flimsy, weak faith. To answer the original question, I would guess that their logic is this: There is only one god, their understanding of that god is correct and perfect, so if you don't believe in that version of god with all that they believe, then whatever god you do believe in doesn't exist; thus, you are categorized as an atheist.
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Extremely well said sedecaro. With all the interpretations of the Bible, and the changes made to accommodate ones own language, somewhere along the way the original meaning could have very possibly been lost. However, if you believe in a higher power, you believe based on how you feel, or how you were taught to feel. Understanding this, I took the opportunity to seek the truth from where ever I was led. I found that learning from the people who actually kept the Torah would be the best source. I have found that their teachings feel right to me. Maybe if people would learn about the faith of others, you might get some enlightenment and possibly understand more about your own religion or belief. I'm just sayin'. :dontknow:
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The Bible is 100% true.
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The bible is truth.
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[The Bible is 100% true.
The bible is truth.
So is every other holy text out there in the world, so...
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To those saying the Bible is truth, or 100% true... Elaborate please. No offense meant, but those responses to me sound more like parrots, not responses of people of faith. I myself believe the Bible is truth; but I would never call it literal truth, nor would I take it at face value - especially having studied the original languages and knowing how badly in places it's translated.
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The Bible shows me how to live my life and I believe the Holy Spirit gave the writers the written word
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I look at the Bible more as a piece of literature. A fantastic one at that. I'm an agnostic, meaning that I need more proof of God to beleieve in him and the miracles and such in the Bible.
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Believing in Jesus is joy unspeakable and full of glory
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Im a little on the tyranny side. I believe in the old testament. I dont believe in having Jesus on a cross. BTW folks. Jesus got off the cross. So why not celebrate a risen saviour. Keeping him on the cross is mind control.
I believe James is an important books. I do not care to read Pauls misleading any longer.
I dont believe that Paul the writer of much of the new testament was legit. I mean he sways to much. He said hes circumsized then he said he is not. I believe Paul was a Mason. I
t was the religious leaders that changed the notes of the music scale. The scale used to be the solfageo scale and that is why people had an open mind then. They changed the harmony to put people in the box thinking. In order to believe in miracles you must feel it happening. And I believe the Catholic church continues at the uppper level to harm people more than help people. And to stuff people in a box. They are part, I believe, in the NWO and the bible clearly says in Micah that if you partake in a ONE WORLD RELIGION then God will turn his back on you.
I believe that faith is important. I believe in being spiritual but not mind controlled. Not public church mind controlled. You do not get to heaven by a minister. All you need to know is in your heart when you have the faith and believe. I have had miracles in my life because of faith.
I love church if its the right one but I wont get into the subserviant worthless part of it. So if I like a church and they start in with your not worthy. Then I believe run as fast as you can. You are able to repent on your own. And this public scrutiny repentance is a symbolic stoning of people. Once I went to a great retreat but they insisted I go to the alter and confess my sins. My biggest sin was not going to church regular. They were looking for lust and I was like sorry but Im not lusting after anyone or sleeping with anyone. I believe in repentance. Just as you wake up to being gratefful for anything and everything. I believe before you go to sleep you say your Im sorry, please forgive me, I love you. Help me to Love and understand better.
My favorite church songs are I come to the garden alone while the dew is still on the roses. And the voice I hear falling on my ear the Son of God discloses and he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am his own. And the joy we share as we tary there. None other, has ever, none. I sing that on one of my videos. So repentance is not to be resaid and resaid at church so that the upper people can discuss what to do with you because you sinned. I believe that people who do real bad things to people must repent, say they are sorry and its because they wont that so many people are hurting. Its not that hard to say Im sorry. :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:
Well what was the question??
Goodnight all.
OK I think thats enough to cause the roll of eyes by the believers and by the not sure ers.
Lots of Love to everyone
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The bible is the word of God, but transcribed by man.
So I believe in God, I just don't believe that the entirety of the bible is truth.
Because it has been manipulated by man in some fashion and man is far from perfect; especially the bible since it contradicts itself many times.
But seriously, if God instructs to adhere to forgiveness, why kill people who do not adhere to your way of thinking?
God supposedly gave us free will, but he did not give us stupidity.
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One of the biggest problems is written by man. But not just that but rewritten over and over. God has spoken to everyone in their own way but if you have been leasing or not. I do believe that GOD is all powerful. He did give all of us free will which has made it where we can follow him or not. I do also believe that the bible is not the only stories about GOD and Jesus. There are years of Jesus' life that are not shown in the bible. If you go to different beliefs through out the world there is a "holy man" that gave them basic rules they are to go by. If you look at these "holy men" a lot of them are just like Jesus. Just like it depending on how you read each of different groups books you have ones like what we see blowing them selves up to fight the devil. One problem with any of books out there is they should be the word of God or for other books their holy man but as others have said they are all transcribed by man.
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Im a little on the tyranny side. I believe in the old testament. I dont believe in having Jesus on a cross. BTW folks. Jesus got off the cross. So why not celebrate a risen saviour. Keeping him on the cross is mind control.
I believe James is an important books. I do not care to read Pauls misleading any longer.
I dont believe that Paul the writer of much of the new testament was legit. I mean he sways to much. He said hes circumsized then he said he is not. I believe Paul was a Mason. I
t was the religious leaders that changed the notes of the music scale. The scale used to be the solfageo scale and that is why people had an open mind then. They changed the harmony to put people in the box thinking. In order to believe in miracles you must feel it happening. And I believe the Catholic church continues at the uppper level to harm people more than help people. And to stuff people in a box. They are part, I believe, in the NWO and the bible clearly says in Micah that if you partake in a ONE WORLD RELIGION then God will turn his back on you.
I believe that faith is important. I believe in being spiritual but not mind controlled. Not public church mind controlled. You do not get to heaven by a minister. All you need to know is in your heart when you have the faith and believe. I have had miracles in my life because of faith.
I love church if its the right one but I wont get into the subserviant worthless part of it. So if I like a church and they start in with your not worthy. Then I believe run as fast as you can. You are able to repent on your own. And this public scrutiny repentance is a symbolic stoning of people. Once I went to a great retreat but they insisted I go to the alter and confess my sins. My biggest sin was not going to church regular. They were looking for lust and I was like sorry but Im not lusting after anyone or sleeping with anyone. I believe in repentance. Just as you wake up to being gratefful for anything and everything. I believe before you go to sleep you say your Im sorry, please forgive me, I love you. Help me to Love and understand better.
My favorite church songs are I come to the garden alone while the dew is still on the roses. And the voice I hear falling on my ear the Son of God discloses and he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am his own. And the joy we share as we tary there. None other, has ever, none. I sing that on one of my videos. So repentance is not to be resaid and resaid at church so that the upper people can discuss what to do with you because you sinned. I believe that people who do real bad things to people must repent, say they are sorry and its because they wont that so many people are hurting. Its not that hard to say Im sorry. :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:
Well what was the question??
Goodnight all.
OK I think thats enough to cause the roll of eyes by the believers and by the not sure ers.
Lots of Love to everyone
Wow Charmane,
I could not have said it better. You took the words right out of my mouth. I am of the same opinion as you. I am a strong believer but do not attend church for the very reasons you state. It has become a place for people to meet and greet and gossip. I would love to see the same zeal shown to people in need. By the way, I Come to the Garden Alone, is one of my favorites, taught to me by my grandmother.
May the Lord continue to bless you and yours. :wave:
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The Bible is not truth....but every word that came out of God's mouth is.
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The BIBLE is an Acronym for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth! Everyone's truth is different, so when it comes to the Bible I don't see why that would be any different. We as humans disagree on so many things. That is why Jesus is one's personal savior...so you won't want to push it on some one else. You can share HIS word but you can't force it!
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Does that make everything the Jehovah's Witnesses believe incorrect?
I don't rememeber it perfectly, but as far as the name goes, I think it's nothing more than hebrew-to-english pronounciations. Similar to how the name "James" would be pronounced "Hay-meh" in spanish. But yeah, JW's are wrong about a lot of things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
I post this occasionally. I'm not sure if I've shown it to you before. If not, I think you'll get a kick out of it.
So sorry George was mislead by the ignorance of both ignorant Christians and non-believers who make up their own statements instead of taking the time to learn, Here's a simply video that show how of a crap your George's belief was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIQR9OuJ388&feature=related
I post this occasionally. I'm sure I haven't shown it to you before. But, I think you'll get a kick out of it.
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So sorry George was mislead by the ignorance of both ignorant Christians and non-believers who make up their own statements instead of taking the time to learn, Here's a simply video that show how of a crap your George's belief was.
I know they were pretty blunt, but explain how ol' Georges explanations were wrong.
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So sorry George was mislead by the ignorance of both ignorant Christians and non-believers who make up their own statements instead of taking the time to learn, Here's a simply video that show how of a crap your George's belief was.
I know they were pretty blunt, but explain how ol' Georges explanations were wrong.
Did you read watch the clip I Posted?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIQR9OuJ388&feature=related
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Im a little on the tyranny side. I believe in the old testament. I dont believe in having Jesus on a cross. BTW folks. Jesus got off the cross. So why not celebrate a risen saviour. Keeping him on the cross is mind control.
I believe James is an important books. I do not care to read Pauls misleading any longer.
I dont believe that Paul the writer of much of the new testament was legit. I mean he sways to much. He said hes circumsized then he said he is not. I believe Paul was a Mason. I
t was the religious leaders that changed the notes of the music scale. The scale used to be the solfageo scale and that is why people had an open mind then. They changed the harmony to put people in the box thinking. In order to believe in miracles you must feel it happening. And I believe the Catholic church continues at the uppper level to harm people more than help people. And to stuff people in a box. They are part, I believe, in the NWO and the bible clearly says in Micah that if you partake in a ONE WORLD RELIGION then God will turn his back on you.
I believe that faith is important. I believe in being spiritual but not mind controlled. Not public church mind controlled. You do not get to heaven by a minister. All you need to know is in your heart when you have the faith and believe. I have had miracles in my life because of faith.
I love church if its the right one but I wont get into the subserviant worthless part of it. So if I like a church and they start in with your not worthy. Then I believe run as fast as you can. You are able to repent on your own. And this public scrutiny repentance is a symbolic stoning of people. Once I went to a great retreat but they insisted I go to the alter and confess my sins. My biggest sin was not going to church regular. They were looking for lust and I was like sorry but Im not lusting after anyone or sleeping with anyone. I believe in repentance. Just as you wake up to being gratefful for anything and everything. I believe before you go to sleep you say your Im sorry, please forgive me, I love you. Help me to Love and understand better.
My favorite church songs are I come to the garden alone while the dew is still on the roses. And the voice I hear falling on my ear the Son of God discloses and he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am his own. And the joy we share as we tary there. None other, has ever, none. I sing that on one of my videos. So repentance is not to be resaid and resaid at church so that the upper people can discuss what to do with you because you sinned. I believe that people who do real bad things to people must repent, say they are sorry and its because they wont that so many people are hurting. Its not that hard to say Im sorry. :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:
Well what was the question??
Goodnight all.
OK I think thats enough to cause the roll of eyes by the believers and by the not sure ers.
Lots of Love to everyone
Wow Charmane,
I could not have said it better. You took the words right out of my mouth. I am of the same opinion as you. I am a strong believer but do not attend church for the very reasons you state. It has become a place for people to meet and greet and gossip. I would love to see the same zeal shown to people in need. By the way, I Come to the Garden Alone, is one of my favorites, taught to me by my grandmother.
May the Lord continue to bless you and yours. :wave:
It's weird how people tend to fall into every little thing that sounds good, Like all that was said, some factual most fictional. But I do understand where you're coming from seeing that it's so easy to start a church, meaning not every church is for God, but there are still some. Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (NIV)
Also you spoke on faith but refuse Paul because he wavered like you're doing right now, but accepted James which you refuse to listen to. Paul speaks of the same faith you speak of saying we're justified by faith (by believing God) while James speaks that faith without works is dead. Which is what you're becoming by staying home (have faith and find a more suitable church and stop encouraging others to leave church because you suffered church hurt)
Hypocrites in Church (they're everywhere). But when they kick you out of church that puts you two steps away from God and the hypocrite one step closes don't let that so called hypocrite stand between you and God.
You're a smart person based on your ideals but know that without the church who will teach your kids to come and the one after. Quit complaining about good Christians and be one. :thumbsup:
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Did you read watch the clip I Posted?
Yeah. Twice now. It...didn't answer my question. And (no offense to your tastes) I'm not into christian rap.
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The Bible is the TRUTH, But some books were left out of the Bible. However it still has the Salvation Message of Jesus Christ, which is the MAIN MESSAGE of the BIBLE.
It is the roadmap to Heaven and the instructions for successful living here on earth.
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The Bible is the inspired, holy word of God. And the word of Godwill stand forever.
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Im a little on the tyranny side. I believe in the old testament. I dont believe in having Jesus on a cross. BTW folks. Jesus got off the cross. So why not celebrate a risen saviour. Keeping him on the cross is mind control.
I believe James is an important books. I do not care to read Pauls misleading any longer.
I dont believe that Paul the writer of much of the new testament was legit. I mean he sways to much. He said hes circumsized then he said he is not. I believe Paul was a Mason. I
t was the religious leaders that changed the notes of the music scale. The scale used to be the solfageo scale and that is why people had an open mind then. They changed the harmony to put people in the box thinking. In order to believe in miracles you must feel it happening. And I believe the Catholic church continues at the uppper level to harm people more than help people. And to stuff people in a box. They are part, I believe, in the NWO and the bible clearly says in Micah that if you partake in a ONE WORLD RELIGION then God will turn his back on you.
I believe that faith is important. I believe in being spiritual but not mind controlled. Not public church mind controlled. You do not get to heaven by a minister. All you need to know is in your heart when you have the faith and believe. I have had miracles in my life because of faith.
I love church if its the right one but I wont get into the subserviant worthless part of it. So if I like a church and they start in with your not worthy. Then I believe run as fast as you can. You are able to repent on your own. And this public scrutiny repentance is a symbolic stoning of people. Once I went to a great retreat but they insisted I go to the alter and confess my sins. My biggest sin was not going to church regular. They were looking for lust and I was like sorry but Im not lusting after anyone or sleeping with anyone. I believe in repentance. Just as you wake up to being gratefful for anything and everything. I believe before you go to sleep you say your Im sorry, please forgive me, I love you. Help me to Love and understand better.
My favorite church songs are I come to the garden alone while the dew is still on the roses. And the voice I hear falling on my ear the Son of God discloses and he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells me I am his own. And the joy we share as we tary there. None other, has ever, none. I sing that on one of my videos. So repentance is not to be resaid and resaid at church so that the upper people can discuss what to do with you because you sinned. I believe that people who do real bad things to people must repent, say they are sorry and its because they wont that so many people are hurting. Its not that hard to say Im sorry. :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:
Well what was the question??
Goodnight all.
OK I think thats enough to cause the roll of eyes by the believers and by the not sure ers.
Lots of Love to everyone
Wow Charmane,
I could not have said it better. You took the words right out of my mouth. I am of the same opinion as you. I am a strong believer but do not attend church for the very reasons you state. It has become a place for people to meet and greet and gossip. I would love to see the same zeal shown to people in need. By the way, I Come to the Garden Alone, is one of my favorites, taught to me by my grandmother.
May the Lord continue to bless you and yours. :wave:
The hymn is "In the Garden" written and put to music by C. Austin Miles.
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The Bible was inspired by God and written by man
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The Biible may have been written in man's handwriting, but the Words are from God. The writers were told by God what was to be written, explained, or told, etc.
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i accept the bible as truth even though written by different men it was inspired by God
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To those saying the Bible is truth, or 100% true... Elaborate please. No offense meant, but those responses to me sound more like parrots, not responses of people of faith. I myself believe the Bible is truth; but I would never call it literal truth, nor would I take it at face value - especially having studied the original languages and knowing how badly in places it's translated.
Given several of the posts by apparent xtians, it appears that they are directly implying that the human writers who contributed to the various biblical passages were 'inspired' to mistranslate them in some poorly conceived disinformation campaign designed to get those lacking critical thinking skills to surrender their 'souls' to some xtian daemon known as "god".
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the bible is truth to me to others it is just laws-it is not easy understanding it,i can tell it is true by what is happening now-there are many events in the holy bible king james 1611 that is going on now. :peace:
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Yes it is Amen :angel11:
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I heard they did a test at some college where they sat people down who never read the bible and who never read any of the fairy tales that most people are accustomn to, such as the 3 little pigs. THEY COULDN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE. :thumbsup: