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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: marieelissa on September 28, 2010, 05:10:31 pm
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This test is designed to answer 2 questions:
Are you a good person according to God's standards?
And if so, are you good enough to go to heaven?
http://www.needgod.com/004.shtml
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:wave: I'm not perfect, but Jesus is my savior and I know I am going to heaven. It's nice to see someone asking others the question.
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I don't believe anyone is these days. Just my opinion, maybe I'm a little bitter, but people suck, for the most part. Cruel, evil, twisted, corrupt, greedy people. Its a harsh world we live in.
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I don't think it's a matter of being "good enough to go to heaven..."
That's not quite how I'd choose to word it.
Not looking to get into a huge debate, just thought that was something to think about.
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One can only hope to get into heaven.
It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...
You must strive on a daily basis in order to achieve that.
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This test is designed to answer 2 questions:
Are you a good person according to God's standards?
And if so, are you good enough to go to heaven?
http://www.needgod.com/004.shtml
I am not familiar with how shtml works. There is probably nothing dynamic about it like html.
It doesn't matter how you answer those questions, you will still get the same static (not changing) messages of being guilty and will be sent to hell. This is not a real test.
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"Hell is understood to be the complete and eternal separation of sinners. God is the source of all life No Life can exist apart from God Being completely and totally separated from God means to have no access to the source of all life. Therefore the damned ceased to exist or they are not completely separated from God.
If they are not completely separated from God because God sustains their lives then God is responsible for their eternal torment. If God is responsible for their eternal torment why is God worthy of our worship for he is plainly not good. If we are to worship God for God's power rather than God's goodness, then we worship a sadistic God. "
Though the basis of this argument ultimately stems from fiction, I consider it to be a good argument against the garbage that Marie posted. And, strangely enough, this comes from Evangelical reasoning. Weird.
http://progressiveevangelical.blogspot.com/2004/12/logical-proof-that-eternal-torment.html
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It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...
That verse as found in Matt 19:24 (KJV) actually says: "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".
KJV doesn't count, it's missing books like Macabees and more.
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This test is designed to answer 2 questions:
Are you a good person according to God's standards?
And if so, are you good enough to go to heaven?
http://www.needgod.com/004.shtml
I would like to know who issued this test. Was it God? Maybe some fundamentalist with nothing else to do but strike fear into others? We are spiritual beings having a human experience. The physical body dies,but the spiritual energy is eternal. Love conquers all.
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John the baptist did not go to heaven, Marie was John the baptist a good man?
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It's only because of what Jesus did on the cross that we can have a relationship with Him.
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John the baptist did not go to heaven
What makes you say that? What makes you to know the placement of souls. This statement makes zero sense and is against the teaching of most christian denominations that acknowledge the communion of saints.
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Let me get this straight. This is a test created by humans to know if you are acceptable to God? Because these humans who created this test surely know and understand everything about God, well enough to know whether or not a person is acceptable to God. And obviously, these humans then also know whether or not you're good enough to go to heaven. ::)
Absolutely ridiculous. We are all should be unacceptable in the eyes of God due to sin, no matter how large or small. However, more importantly, we are all equally acceptable and loved in the eyes of God due to God's grace. Regardless of what we do, good or bad, God loves us and cares for us. So the question isn't whether or not you are good enough for God, or whether you're good enough to get into heaven, because those things don't really matter in the eyes of God. You are human; therefore you are a child of God and loved by God. Doubtless, one should live one's life in response to that love, and so one should desire to be "good" because of that. But the love comes before that - you need not do anything to get God to accept you, because that's already the case.
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The KJV is the main version I use. Yes, it is absolutely counted. The Apocrypha isn't included in the KJV for various reasons. One reason is that none of the writers lay claim to the inspiration of God. KJV's books are all inspired by God. Another reason is that the Apocrypha's books were not written in the Hebrew language, which is what the inspired writers and poets only used in the Old Testament. These other books also weren't acknowledged as sacred by the Jews. There are other reasons why they aren't accepted in the KJV.
I do use the Living Bible and the NIV for study references and to help clarify things in question.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/apocryph.htm
http://www.thebaptist.org/whyapocrypha.htm
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John the baptist did not go to heaven
What makes you say that? What makes you to know the placement of souls. This statement makes zero sense and is against the teaching of most christian denominations that acknowledge the communion of saints.
I agree with mattymatt here. John the Baptist laid the foundation for the coming of Jesus in the New Testament. How in the world did he not go to Heaven after all he did for Jesus? That man was a "Christian" - he lived his whole life for Jesus.
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John the baptist did not go to heaven
What makes you say that? What makes you to know the placement of souls. This statement makes zero sense and is against the teaching of most christian denominations that acknowledge the communion of saints.
I agree with mattymatt here. John the Baptist laid the foundation for the coming of Jesus in the New Testament. How in the world did he not go to Heaven after all he did for Jesus? That man was a "Christian" - he lived his whole life for Jesus.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
This verse is evidently quoting psalms 110:1 where the tetragrammation(YHWH) for God's name appears.
Matthew 11:11 reads 11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
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John the baptist did not go to heaven
What makes you say that? What makes you to know the placement of souls. This statement makes zero sense and is against the teaching of most christian denominations that acknowledge the communion of saints.
I agree with mattymatt here. John the Baptist laid the foundation for the coming of Jesus in the New Testament. How in the world did he not go to Heaven after all he did for Jesus? That man was a "Christian" - he lived his whole life for Jesus.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
This verse is evidently quoting psalms 110:1 where the tetragrammation(YHWH) for God's name appears.
Matthew 11:11 reads 11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
You seriously need to rethink some of your posts. And read here: http://billphillips.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/did-john-the-baptist-go-to-heaven/
Here, I'll copy/paste it for you:
John the Baptist and Matthew 11:11
What does Jesus mean when he says whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11)? This verse doesn’t say anywhere that when John the Baptist dies he’s not going to heaven or Abraham’s bosom. It just means that those of us who proclaim the New Covenant are better off than those who proclaimed the Old Covenant (Hebrews 7:22-24).
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John the baptist did not go to heaven
What makes you say that? What makes you to know the placement of souls. This statement makes zero sense and is against the teaching of most christian denominations that acknowledge the communion of saints.
I agree with mattymatt here. John the Baptist laid the foundation for the coming of Jesus in the New Testament. How in the world did he not go to Heaven after all he did for Jesus? That man was a "Christian" - he lived his whole life for Jesus.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
This verse is evidently quoting psalms 110:1 where the tetragrammation(YHWH) for God's name appears.
Matthew 11:11 reads 11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
You seriously need to rethink some of your posts. And read here: http://billphillips.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/did-john-the-baptist-go-to-heaven/
Here, I'll copy/paste it for you:
John the Baptist and Matthew 11:11
What does Jesus mean when he says whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11)? This verse doesn’t say anywhere that when John the Baptist dies he’s not going to heaven or Abraham’s bosom. It just means that those of us who proclaim the New Covenant are better off than those who proclaimed the Old Covenant (Hebrews 7:22-24).
Thanks, Amy! You explained it better than I could have!!!
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It doesn't matter how you answer those questions, you will still get the same static (not changing) messages of being guilty and will be sent to hell. This is not a real test.
It is a test designed to show people that no matter whether they are "bad" or are "good", they are still headed for hell...which is in accord with the Bible. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"(Romans 3:23 KJV) "For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".(Romans 6:23 KJV) Eternal life is a gift from God for those that have accepted Jesus and believe that His blood was shed for their sins.
yes SherylsShado! Salvation is a gift! We are saved by grace through faith.
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John the baptist did not go to heaven
What makes you say that? What makes you to know the placement of souls. This statement makes zero sense and is against the teaching of most christian denominations that acknowledge the communion of saints.
I agree with mattymatt here. John the Baptist laid the foundation for the coming of Jesus in the New Testament. How in the world did he not go to Heaven after all he did for Jesus? That man was a "Christian" - he lived his whole life for Jesus.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
This verse is evidently quoting psalms 110:1 where the tetragrammation(YHWH) for God's name appears.
Matthew 11:11 reads 11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
You seriously need to rethink some of your posts. And read here: http://billphillips.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/did-john-the-baptist-go-to-heaven/
Here, I'll copy/paste it for you:
John the Baptist and Matthew 11:11
What does Jesus mean when he says whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11)? This verse doesn’t say anywhere that when John the Baptist dies he’s not going to heaven or Abraham’s bosom. It just means that those of us who proclaim the New Covenant are better off than those who proclaimed the Old Covenant (Hebrews 7:22-24).
Hi Amy nice to see you reading or responding to the other half of the bible(though both are equally important).
I read the whole article the discussion at the end was interesting on both sides, as for Hebrews 7:22-24 it reads 22 to that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge of a better covenant. 23 Furthermore, many had to become priests [in succession] because of being prevented by death from continuing as such, 24 but he because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors.
I don't see where it says people who proclaim the new covenant are better then the one that proclaim the old covenant, maybe it;s implied because Jesus came with a better covenant or pledge? ???
As for elect and lesser born again humans who become angels(meaning 2 different classes of being born again as angels) in heaven it doesn't say in the bible Paul actually says we(meaning the ones who will rule with christ or born again Christians) will Judge angels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 Corinthians 6:3
6 Does anyone of YOU that has a case against the other dare to go to court before unrighteous men, and not before the holy ones? 2 Or do YOU not know that the holy ones will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by YOU, are YOU unfit to try very trivial matters? 3 Do YOU not know that we shall judge angels?
More importantly though if all good people go to heaven and all bad people go to hellfire and not hell(common grave), When is acts 24:15 and the earthly promises fulfilled such as Matthew 5:5, Matthew 6:10, Ephesians 1:9-10
I hope i'm not sounding dogmatic but those are the inconsistencies I see with some of the other scriptures, even if the JW's are wrong and there's more then 144K that go to heaven, there's still a lot of people on earth because if there wasn't they wouldn't have anyone on earth to rule over? ???
Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's where in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'm saved whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved righteous overmuch?
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Hi Amy nice to see you reading or responding to the other half of the bible(though both are equally important).
I have history reading the TaNaKh, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and the Qu'ran, among other holy books, not all monotheistic. I do not claim to be an expert at any of these, but I know what I know, and I know what I feel.
Your statement about John the Baptist, and statements about being able to pass judgment are troublesome to me because no one has the authority to judge anyone else regarding any afterlife, because it is not something we know with 100% certainty. I do not know whether or not there is a heaven or a hell, and I do not base my belief in g-d on where I may end up after I die because I am grateful for the time I've been given. To love someone based on what they can and will give you because of that love is not a true love at all. I love g-d because I do. I am grateful for what I have (which, by today's standards is not much at all) and I will continue to love g-d no matter what life throws at me. To expect a ride to a peaceful beautiful afterlife because of that love seems wrong to me on so many levels. I do not love my daughter because I expect her to support me when I am elderly but because she is a part of me. Not everything faith based is found in books.
My point in saying this is this: it is not for us to judge what happened to John the Baptist. His place is known to the ones that matter, and for us to speculate that is merely a waste of the gift of time we have been given. That, and g-d did tell us not to judge whether he was good or not. G-d knows.
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Hi Amy nice to see you reading or responding to the other half of the bible(though both are equally important).
I have history reading the TaNaKh, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon, and the Qu'ran, among other holy books, not all monotheistic. I do not claim to be an expert at any of these, but I know what I know, and I know what I feel.
Your statement about John the Baptist, and statements about being able to pass judgment are troublesome to me because no one has the authority to judge anyone else regarding any afterlife, because it is not something we know with 100% certainty. I do not know whether or not there is a heaven or a hell, and I do not base my belief in g-d on where I may end up after I die because I am grateful for the time I've been given. To love someone based on what they can and will give you because of that love is not a true love at all. I love g-d because I do. I am grateful for what I have (which, by today's standards is not much at all) and I will continue to love g-d no matter what life throws at me. To expect a ride to a peaceful beautiful afterlife because of that love seems wrong to me on so many levels. I do not love my daughter because I expect her to support me when I am elderly but because she is a part of me. Not everything faith based is found in books.
My point in saying this is this: it is not for us to judge what happened to John the Baptist. His place is known to the ones that matter, and for us to speculate that is merely a waste of the gift of time we have been given. That, and g-d did tell us not to judge whether he was good or not. G-d knows.
If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God. You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?
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If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God. You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?
If you read what I said, I said that g-d does not want us to judge including upon the afterlife. Any speculation about whether or not someone has ascended to heaven or gone to hell or merely died and is now in non-existence is judgment, and it is not for us to determine. I have no interest in speculation about the afterlife because it is not for me to know at this point in time. I will find out (or not find out) soon enough when I die. My interest lies in reading the holy books, interpreting them to the best of my ability, and living the best life I possibly can.
I will, though, speak up when I see someone making hasty and/or false judgments.
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If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God. You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?
If you read what I said, I said that g-d does not want us to judge including upon the afterlife. Any speculation about whether or not someone has ascended to heaven or gone to hell or merely died and is now in non-existence is judgment, and it is not for us to determine. I have no interest in speculation about the afterlife because it is not for me to know at this point in time. I will find out (or not find out) soon enough when I die. My interest lies in reading the holy books, interpreting them to the best of my ability, and living the best life I possibly can.
I will, though, speak up when I see someone making hasty and/or false judgments.
1. I'm not passing judgment the bible is, admittedly though I have to admit the bible saying those lesser then John the baptist doesn't automatically mean he didn't go to heaven according to the bible, though it's clear THE BIBLE NOT ME says David did not ascend to the heavens(meaning he didn't go to heaven)
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
2. If you don't learn how the afterlife works in this life your going to believe every story about it not knowing if it's true or not. Essentially your going to fall for myths.
3. If the bibles saying something and i'm just showing you what it says is it me or the bible passing judgment for example GOD can't do two things lie and be a man, i'm I passing judgment on his own word(THE BIBLE) says he can't do those things?
Titus 1:2 Reads 2 upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,
Numbers 23:19 Reads
God is not a man that he should tell lies,
Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret.
Has he himself said it and will he not do it,
And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
Now I ask you again am I passing judgment on God when his own word says he can't lie and is not a man or even son of mankind(JESUS)??!!!
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If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God. You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?
If you read what I said, I said that g-d does not want us to judge including upon the afterlife. Any speculation about whether or not someone has ascended to heaven or gone to hell or merely died and is now in non-existence is judgment, and it is not for us to determine. I have no interest in speculation about the afterlife because it is not for me to know at this point in time. I will find out (or not find out) soon enough when I die. My interest lies in reading the holy books, interpreting them to the best of my ability, and living the best life I possibly can.
I will, though, speak up when I see someone making hasty and/or false judgments.
1. I'm not passing judgment the bible is, admittedly though I have to admit the bible saying those lesser then John the baptist doesn't automatically mean he didn't go to heaven according to the bible, though it's clear THE BIBLE NOT ME says David did not ascend to the heavens(meaning he didn't go to heaven)
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
2. If you don't learn how the afterlife works in this life your going to believe every story about it not knowing if it's true or not. Essentially your going to fall for myths.
3. If the bibles saying something and i'm just showing you what it says is it me or the bible passing judgment for example GOD can't do two things lie and be a man, i'm I passing judgment on his own word(THE BIBLE) says he can't do those things?
Titus 1:2 Reads 2 upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,
Numbers 23:19 Reads
God is not a man that he should tell lies,
Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret.
Has he himself said it and will he not do it,
And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
Now I ask you again am I passing judgment on God when his own word says he can't lie and is not a man or even son of mankind(JESUS)??!!!
You are taking this scripture out of context, and what was happening at that time. Balak had gotten Balaam to try to curse Israel. The scripture was a "parable"(moral teachings) see verse 18. The parable was for Balak. God was saying (through Balaam), that He was not like Balak (man/sinful flesh), or that He should repent. Only sinful man needs to repent.....not God. God could NEVER be sinful flesh......He is God! Or like Balak, to bless or curse because he wanted to come against Israel. That the promises to Israel were unbreakable by God. The blessings upon Israel were not lies or empty promises, and they could not be broken because God spoke them, and established them forever.
Nest verse: Numbers 24:20 - Behold, I have received commandment to bless' and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Balaam speaking). In other words, God could not reverse it because He established Israel forever. He made this promise and cannot lie as God.
You really need to take scriptures in their proper context and why they were written, what was happening, the dispensation of that happening, the times and customs of the day, etc.
The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10.
However....back to the topic of the thread: The Bible says none of us are good....not one. Even the righteousness of the righteous is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). It also says we are all as an unclean thing. We don't get good to come to God. We come to God to get good. Which, is a lifetime of work and submitting to God and His Word. Nobody can get to heaven by just doing good all the time. There is a plan of Salvation to follow and steps to take to be redeemed to be found worthy of heaven. Only God can make us worthy for Heaven. Man does not have it in himself to be worthy. God is the potter, and we are the clay.
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Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
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Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Thank you, I looked for that scripture and couldn't find it....you did....good job!
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John the baptist did not go to heaven
What makes you say that? What makes you to know the placement of souls. This statement makes zero sense and is against the teaching of most christian denominations that acknowledge the communion of saints.
NO....most Christian organizations DO NOT believe in the "communion of saints". Which being defined is the communion of those on earth communicating with those who have died, and those in purgatory. The only religion I know that believes that is the Catholic church. What you are saying is against most Christian denominations.
This coming from a man who doesn't even believe the KJV of the Bible is pertinent.....go figure.
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John the baptist did not go to heaven
What makes you say that? What makes you to know the placement of souls. This statement makes zero sense and is against the teaching of most christian denominations that acknowledge the communion of saints.
I agree with mattymatt here. John the Baptist laid the foundation for the coming of Jesus in the New Testament. How in the world did he not go to Heaven after all he did for Jesus? That man was a "Christian" - he lived his whole life for Jesus.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
This verse is evidently quoting psalms 110:1 where the tetragrammation(YHWH) for God's name appears.
Matthew 11:11 reads 11 Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.
You seriously need to rethink some of your posts. And read here: http://billphillips.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/did-john-the-baptist-go-to-heaven/
Here, I'll copy/paste it for you:
John the Baptist and Matthew 11:11
What does Jesus mean when he says whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11)? This verse doesn’t say anywhere that when John the Baptist dies he’s not going to heaven or Abraham’s bosom. It just means that those of us who proclaim the New Covenant are better off than those who proclaimed the Old Covenant (Hebrews 7:22-24).
You are absolutely correct Amy.
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If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God. You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?
If you read what I said, I said that g-d does not want us to judge including upon the afterlife. Any speculation about whether or not someone has ascended to heaven or gone to hell or merely died and is now in non-existence is judgment, and it is not for us to determine. I have no interest in speculation about the afterlife because it is not for me to know at this point in time. I will find out (or not find out) soon enough when I die. My interest lies in reading the holy books, interpreting them to the best of my ability, and living the best life I possibly can.
I will, though, speak up when I see someone making hasty and/or false judgments.
1. I'm not passing judgment the bible is, admittedly though I have to admit the bible saying those lesser then John the baptist doesn't automatically mean he didn't go to heaven according to the bible, though it's clear THE BIBLE NOT ME says David did not ascend to the heavens(meaning he didn't go to heaven)
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
2. If you don't learn how the afterlife works in this life your going to believe every story about it not knowing if it's true or not. Essentially your going to fall for myths.
3. If the bibles saying something and i'm just showing you what it says is it me or the bible passing judgment for example GOD can't do two things lie and be a man, i'm I passing judgment on his own word(THE BIBLE) says he can't do those things?
Titus 1:2 Reads 2 upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,
Numbers 23:19 Reads
God is not a man that he should tell lies,
Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret.
Has he himself said it and will he not do it,
And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
Now I ask you again am I passing judgment on God when his own word says he can't lie and is not a man or even son of mankind(JESUS)??!!!
You are taking this scripture out of context, and what was happening at that time. Balak had gotten Balaam to try to curse Israel. The scripture was a "parable"(moral teachings) see verse 18. The parable was for Balak. God was saying (through Balaam), that He was not like Balak (man/sinful flesh), or that He should repent. Only sinful man needs to repent.....not God. God could NEVER be sinful flesh......He is God! Or like Balak, to bless or curse because he wanted to come against Israel. That the promises to Israel were unbreakable by God. The blessings upon Israel were not lies or empty promises, and they could not be broken because God spoke them, and established them forever.
Nest verse: Numbers 24:20 - Behold, I have received commandment to bless' and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Balaam speaking). In other words, God could not reverse it because He established Israel forever. He made this promise and cannot lie as God.
You really need to take scriptures in their proper context and why they were written, what was happening, the dispensation of that happening, the times and customs of the day, etc.
The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10.
However....back to the topic of the thread: The Bible says none of us are good....not one. Even the righteousness of the righteous is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). It also says we are all as an unclean thing. We don't get good to come to God. We come to God to get good. Which, is a lifetime of work and submitting to God and His Word. Nobody can get to heaven by just doing good all the time. There is a plan of Salvation to follow and steps to take to be redeemed to be found worthy of heaven. Only God can make us worthy for Heaven. Man does not have it in himself to be worthy. God is the potter, and we are the clay.
So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?
Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN
"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."
I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved? Righteous overmuch?
Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!
Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.
The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
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More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah. I have yet to meet one that hasn't.
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
EDIT:
But not only that... the second most important being in the universe? Uh... so this means you have issues with the trinity? God-Jesus-Holy Ghost are one and the same, not separate beings... so why would you claim Jesus was the second most important being? I would think that since, according to Christian belief, Jesus is God that Jesus would be the most important being, not standing in line. You believe he died to wash away your sin so that salvation is available to you, so who could be more important than that?
I honestly don't understand a great many of the things you profess, although you do seem to be steadfast in your belief. Either you need to take more time in crafting your responses so they are clearer or you need to do more study because you contradict yourself and you contradict the Bible.
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More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah. I have yet to meet one that hasn't.
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
Uh Amy, there are Messianic Jews that believe in Jesus as the Messiah. There are also organizations called "Jews for Jesus" that believe in Jesus as the Messiah. There are Jews in my organization (denomination) that believe in Jesus, that He was the Messiah. While the majority of Jews do not, there are more and more who are coming to the knowledge of Jesus being the Messiah.
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More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah. I have yet to meet one that hasn't.
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
Uh Amy, there are Messianic Jews that believe in Jesus as the Messiah. There are also organizations called "Jews for Jesus" that believe in Jesus as the Messiah. There are Jews in my organization (denomination) that believe in Jesus, that He was the Messiah. While the majority of Jews do not, there are more and more who are coming to the knowledge of Jesus being the Messiah.
Messianic are not Jews. Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah. Please check out that link.
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If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God. You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?
If you read what I said, I said that g-d does not want us to judge including upon the afterlife. Any speculation about whether or not someone has ascended to heaven or gone to hell or merely died and is now in non-existence is judgment, and it is not for us to determine. I have no interest in speculation about the afterlife because it is not for me to know at this point in time. I will find out (or not find out) soon enough when I die. My interest lies in reading the holy books, interpreting them to the best of my ability, and living the best life I possibly can.
I will, though, speak up when I see someone making hasty and/or false judgments.
1. I'm not passing judgment the bible is, admittedly though I have to admit the bible saying those lesser then John the baptist doesn't automatically mean he didn't go to heaven according to the bible, though it's clear THE BIBLE NOT ME says David did not ascend to the heavens(meaning he didn't go to heaven)
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
2. If you don't learn how the afterlife works in this life your going to believe every story about it not knowing if it's true or not. Essentially your going to fall for myths.
3. If the bibles saying something and i'm just showing you what it says is it me or the bible passing judgment for example GOD can't do two things lie and be a man, i'm I passing judgment on his own word(THE BIBLE) says he can't do those things?
Titus 1:2 Reads 2 upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,
Numbers 23:19 Reads
God is not a man that he should tell lies,
Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret.
Has he himself said it and will he not do it,
And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
Now I ask you again am I passing judgment on God when his own word says he can't lie and is not a man or even son of mankind(JESUS)??!!!
You are taking this scripture out of context, and what was happening at that time. Balak had gotten Balaam to try to curse Israel. The scripture was a "parable"(moral teachings) see verse 18. The parable was for Balak. God was saying (through Balaam), that He was not like Balak (man/sinful flesh), or that He should repent. Only sinful man needs to repent.....not God. God could NEVER be sinful flesh......He is God! Or like Balak, to bless or curse because he wanted to come against Israel. That the promises to Israel were unbreakable by God. The blessings upon Israel were not lies or empty promises, and they could not be broken because God spoke them, and established them forever.
Nest verse: Numbers 24:20 - Behold, I have received commandment to bless' and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Balaam speaking). In other words, God could not reverse it because He established Israel forever. He made this promise and cannot lie as God.
You really need to take scriptures in their proper context and why they were written, what was happening, the dispensation of that happening, the times and customs of the day, etc.
The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10.
However....back to the topic of the thread: The Bible says none of us are good....not one. Even the righteousness of the righteous is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). It also says we are all as an unclean thing. We don't get good to come to God. We come to God to get good. Which, is a lifetime of work and submitting to God and His Word. Nobody can get to heaven by just doing good all the time. There is a plan of Salvation to follow and steps to take to be redeemed to be found worthy of heaven. Only God can make us worthy for Heaven. Man does not have it in himself to be worthy. God is the potter, and we are the clay.
So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?
Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN
"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."
I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved? Righteous overmuch?
Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!
Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.
The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
You are throwing out scriptures or portions of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other, and confusing the issue being discussed. God is NOT the author of confusion. Scripture interprets scripture and the Word flows together.
Many times, God spoke of His humanity (Jesus) or His diety (God). Sometimes He spoke of both in some scriptures, and sometimes His diety, humanity, and Spirit (Holy Ghost).
In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray. He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would). He is God in the midst of them and not man. He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises.
Now.....get your Bible and read the 7th Chapter of Revelations. The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, and it lists all 12 tribes, and there were 12,000 taken from each tribe. These are full Jews (Children of Israel). Now....look at:
Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So lets recap shall we:
1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
These were mentioned AFTER the 144,000 were sealed. This is a multitude without number. The redeemed.
Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?
We are grafted into the covenant of the Jews promise when we are redeemed (saved). We are the Children of Abraham by redemption. However, we are gentiles, grafted into the true vine......not Jewish. There are feasts, covenants, and recognitions of such that the Jews are ordered to remember forever (Passover). We as gentiles are not. Circumcision was a covenant that God made with the Hebrew children. It was a type and shadow now of the redeemed, and being circumcised of the heart. There are many types and shadows of the of the Old Testament, that point to Jesus, and the Salvation plan. However, I'm a gentile, not a Jew. Amy is Jewish. She was born Jewish. Our redemption grafts us into the promises and covenants, but we are not by flesh...Jews.
Once saved, always saved? I don't think so: Where in the Bible does it say that? In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite. You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.
Heres a scripture for you if you don't think God was not a man, He was Jesus!
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two). We can do that. However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.
Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings? Righteous overmuch? What do you mean by that? Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT". I did not scream anything. Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't. I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life. I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist. Would you like to compare credentials. Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge. I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world. That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.
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Amy, I firmly believe, according to Scripture, that Jesus is the Messiah. I'm trying to better understand why Jews don't believe that He hasn't fulfilled the prophecy of Messiah. I know what I have studied, and I know that in the Old Testament, Israel is the chosen, but something happened to change things with Israel and Jews. And I'm assuming since Jews are still waiting for Jesus to come for the first time (am I correct about this?), that that is why they don't use the New Testament.
Annella, you have given a lot of time to your answers. You are doing great, with Scripture back-up, with clarifying answers. :)
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More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah. I have yet to meet one that hasn't.
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
Uh Amy, there are Messianic Jews that believe in Jesus as the Messiah. There are also organizations called "Jews for Jesus" that believe in Jesus as the Messiah. There are Jews in my organization (denomination) that believe in Jesus, that He was the Messiah. While the majority of Jews do not, there are more and more who are coming to the knowledge of Jesus being the Messiah.
Messianic are not Jews. Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah. Please check out that link.
Messianic assemblies are Jews/non Jews that take Judaism, and some Christian beliefs and combined them. They mostly believe that Jesus is the second person in the Godhead, which is not correct either. There are also assemblies that call themselves Jews for Jesus. These are Jews that believe that Jesus was the Messiah. While you may not have met any Jews that believe as Christians, some Jews do believe that Jesus was the Messiah.
The majority of Jews....as yourself, do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, because you reject the New Testament and it's teachings. Christians do believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and my denomination goes one step further and believes that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
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More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah. I have yet to meet one that hasn't.
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
EDIT:
But not only that... the second most important being in the universe? Uh... so this means you have issues with the trinity? God-Jesus-Holy Ghost are one and the same, not separate beings... so why would you claim Jesus was the second most important being? I would think that since, according to Christian belief, Jesus is God that Jesus would be the most important being, not standing in line. You believe he died to wash away your sin so that salvation is available to you, so who could be more important than that?
I honestly don't understand a great many of the things you profess, although you do seem to be steadfast in your belief. Either you need to take more time in crafting your responses so they are clearer or you need to do more study because you contradict yourself and you contradict the Bible.
The way I've learned it is that God the Father is usually named first in the Trinity. He was the one over all from the Creation forward. Yes, there is God the Son, being Jesus, who was born of a virgin, and so has human qualities, and then there is God the Holy Spirit, who is our Comforter until Jesus comes again. But, yet, they are all in one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
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Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist. I celebrate the differences in people. Just wanted to clarify that for you. I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.
For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile. By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT. I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith. When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted. I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability. I hope this makes sense.
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If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God. You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?
If you read what I said, I said that g-d does not want us to judge including upon the afterlife. Any speculation about whether or not someone has ascended to heaven or gone to hell or merely died and is now in non-existence is judgment, and it is not for us to determine. I have no interest in speculation about the afterlife because it is not for me to know at this point in time. I will find out (or not find out) soon enough when I die. My interest lies in reading the holy books, interpreting them to the best of my ability, and living the best life I possibly can.
I will, though, speak up when I see someone making hasty and/or false judgments.
1. I'm not passing judgment the bible is, admittedly though I have to admit the bible saying those lesser then John the baptist doesn't automatically mean he didn't go to heaven according to the bible, though it's clear THE BIBLE NOT ME says David did not ascend to the heavens(meaning he didn't go to heaven)
Acts 2:34 reads 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,
2. If you don't learn how the afterlife works in this life your going to believe every story about it not knowing if it's true or not. Essentially your going to fall for myths.
3. If the bibles saying something and i'm just showing you what it says is it me or the bible passing judgment for example GOD can't do two things lie and be a man, i'm I passing judgment on his own word(THE BIBLE) says he can't do those things?
Titus 1:2 Reads 2 upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,
Numbers 23:19 Reads
God is not a man that he should tell lies,
Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret.
Has he himself said it and will he not do it,
And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
Now I ask you again am I passing judgment on God when his own word says he can't lie and is not a man or even son of mankind(JESUS)??!!!
You are taking this scripture out of context, and what was happening at that time. Balak had gotten Balaam to try to curse Israel. The scripture was a "parable"(moral teachings) see verse 18. The parable was for Balak. God was saying (through Balaam), that He was not like Balak (man/sinful flesh), or that He should repent. Only sinful man needs to repent.....not God. God could NEVER be sinful flesh......He is God! Or like Balak, to bless or curse because he wanted to come against Israel. That the promises to Israel were unbreakable by God. The blessings upon Israel were not lies or empty promises, and they could not be broken because God spoke them, and established them forever.
Nest verse: Numbers 24:20 - Behold, I have received commandment to bless' and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Balaam speaking). In other words, God could not reverse it because He established Israel forever. He made this promise and cannot lie as God.
You really need to take scriptures in their proper context and why they were written, what was happening, the dispensation of that happening, the times and customs of the day, etc.
The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10.
However....back to the topic of the thread: The Bible says none of us are good....not one. Even the righteousness of the righteous is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). It also says we are all as an unclean thing. We don't get good to come to God. We come to God to get good. Which, is a lifetime of work and submitting to God and His Word. Nobody can get to heaven by just doing good all the time. There is a plan of Salvation to follow and steps to take to be redeemed to be found worthy of heaven. Only God can make us worthy for Heaven. Man does not have it in himself to be worthy. God is the potter, and we are the clay.
So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?
Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN
"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."
I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved? Righteous overmuch?
Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!
Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.
The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
You are throwing out scriptures or portions of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other, and confusing the issue being discussed. God is NOT the author of confusion. Scripture interprets scripture and the Word flows together.
Many times, God spoke of His humanity (Jesus) or His diety (God). Sometimes He spoke of both in some scriptures, and sometimes His diety, humanity, and Spirit (Holy Ghost).
In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray. He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would). He is God in the midst of them and not man. He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises.
Now.....get your Bible and read the 7th Chapter of Revelations. The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, and it lists all 12 tribes, and there were 12,000 taken from each tribe. These are full Jews (Children of Israel). Now....look at:
Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So lets recap shall we:
1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
These were mentioned AFTER the 144,000 were sealed. This is a multitude without number. The redeemed.
Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?
We are grafted into the covenant of the Jews promise when we are redeemed (saved). We are the Children of Abraham by redemption. However, we are gentiles, grafted into the true vine......not Jewish. There are feasts, cove
nants, and recognitions of such that the Jews are ordered to remember forever (Passover). We as gentiles are not. Circumcision was a covenant that God made with the Hebrew children. It was a type and shadow now of the redeemed, and being circumcised of the heart. There are many types and shadows of the of the Old Testament, that point to Jesus, and the Salvation plan. However, I'm a gentile, not a Jew. Amy is Jewish. She was born Jewish. Our redemption grafts us into the promises and covenants, but we are not by flesh...Jews.
Once saved, always saved? I don't think so: Where in the Bible does it say that? In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite. You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.
Heres a scripture for you if you don't think God was not a man, He was Jesus!
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two). We can do that. However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.
Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings? Righteous overmuch? What do you mean by that? Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT". I did not scream anything. Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't. I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life. I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist. Would you like to compare credentials. Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge. I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world. That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.
Quotes i'm responding to are numbered in order you said them.
1. "In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray. He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would). He is God in the midst of them and not man. He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises."
Thank you for the context of the verse but he's still saying he's not a man.
2. Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So lets recap shall we:
1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
Right but these are after the 144K, that are bought from the earth or sealed as Revelation 7:4 reads
Revelation 14:1-5 makes it clear that the 144K are bought from the earth and are the first fruits of mankind.
14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
The ones that are not of the 144K the other sheep are of the earth, these are the ones that are going to reside on it forever. The verse below is a prophecy(I checked the context)
Psalms 37:29 reads 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.
Although it says land in KJ, verses 27 and 28 imply an unlimited time, who possesses a land forever?
3. Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?
Just quoting so I can explain it easier and for emphasis
9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
To show you that the 144K are from all of mankind and not just Hebrews/Israelites, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but no one has been proven by science to be apart of the line of Jesus(that is Hebrew/Israelite) which is the same as being a fleshly Jew(literal Jew) but you can be a spirituality Jewish even though someone is a gentile as I already pointed out in my previous post. Hebrews/Israelites are one people, their not part of the native american tribes, they don't speak Icelandic though it might have been possible during pentecost :-, Hebrews/Israelites are not hawaiian and they didn't have a nation God didn't approve of(unless they sinned), I can go on and on but I think you get the point. This also corresponds to Revelation 14 because only the 144K are mentioned to be singing a new song and they are also the only ones mentioned to rule as kings over the earth.
This is in harmony with Matthew 22:28-30 28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
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Admin please don't warn or delete my post I ran out of room on my quote!!!! Srry for the double post
4. Once saved, always saved? I don't think so: Where in the Bible does it say that? In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite. You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.
Your right I totally screwed up that one I meant to say I do not believe in once saved always saved, also the JW's DO NOT BELIEVE THIS EITHER, I just wanted to clarify that i'm not yelling or screaming at you just speaking up.
5. 1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I made a thread about most of the trinity "proof texts" already, if you want the link I can give it to you.
6. Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two). We can do that. However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.
We can do that and thank you for pointing out I was cherry-picking, as for points that was actually what I was doing, I was sure that the scriptures followed the point I was making though? :'(
7. Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings? Righteous overmuch? What do you mean by that? Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT". I did not scream anything. Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't. I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life. I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist. Would you like to compare credentials. Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge. I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world. That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.
I'll start off by quoting myself "On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved? Righteous overmuch?" This was a question and not a statement, I was asking a question to all good people go to heaven believers based on the verses in 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 were Paul says the holy ones(that is the born again ones that go to heaven) will judge both the angels and the world(this is paraphrased). As for the scream "OUT OF CONTEXT" comment i've been watching too many debates srry. I never claimed to know all about the bible and I agree we're still learning. I will also not like to compare credentials.
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Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist. I celebrate the differences in people. Just wanted to clarify that for you. I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.
For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile. By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT. I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith. When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted. I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability. I hope this makes sense.
Thank you, Amy, for clarifying for me. Let me digest on that a bit, when I'm not so sleep-deprived-headed, and I'll get back with you. :)
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Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist. I celebrate the differences in people. Just wanted to clarify that for you. I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.
For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile. By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT. I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith. When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted. I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability. I hope this makes sense.
Not really......
Is not Jewish being Hebrew? Being Jewish is a race is it not? So you are saying that if I was born Jewish, but got a revelation that Jesus was actually the Messiah, I would not be considered Jewish anymore? In other words, I would be shunned by my Jewish family and friends? I have heard of this happening.
What I understand you saying....but I could be wrong. That in order to be viewed as Jewish, I need to follow Judaism only? My race is white (caucasian), but I'm a Christian. Just because I'm a Christian, does not change my race of still being white.
Anybody who is Christian believes in both the OT and NT. They would not be Christian otherwise. Christians are those who heard the Salvation message and acted on it. Believing on, and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount to being Christian, and obtaining forgiveness/remission of sins, redemption, and renewing. All needed to enter Heaven.
If you actually believe all the other books (including the Bible) like the Koran, etc., you would have nothing but contradiction and confusion. As far as Eve eating the forbidden fruit, it was not a positive act that we need to preserve it or honor it in anyway. It's a lesson in the downfall, and the start of sinful nature in man. through the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all born in sinful flesh.
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So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?
Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN
"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses). Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7. It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."
I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved? Righteous overmuch?
Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!
Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.
The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.
Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.
You are throwing out scriptures or portions of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other, and confusing the issue being discussed. God is NOT the author of confusion. Scripture interprets scripture and the Word flows together.
Many times, God spoke of His humanity (Jesus) or His diety (God). Sometimes He spoke of both in some scriptures, and sometimes His diety, humanity, and Spirit (Holy Ghost).
In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray. He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would). He is God in the midst of them and not man. He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises.
Now.....get your Bible and read the 7th Chapter of Revelations. The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, and it lists all 12 tribes, and there were 12,000 taken from each tribe. These are full Jews (Children of Israel). Now....look at:
Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So lets recap shall we:
1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
These were mentioned AFTER the 144,000 were sealed. This is a multitude without number. The redeemed.
Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?
We are grafted into the covenant of the Jews promise when we are redeemed (saved). We are the Children of Abraham by redemption. However, we are gentiles, grafted into the true vine......not Jewish. There are feasts, cove
nants, and recognitions of such that the Jews are ordered to remember forever (Passover). We as gentiles are not. Circumcision was a covenant that God made with the Hebrew children. It was a type and shadow now of the redeemed, and being circumcised of the heart. There are many types and shadows of the of the Old Testament, that point to Jesus, and the Salvation plan. However, I'm a gentile, not a Jew. Amy is Jewish. She was born Jewish. Our redemption grafts us into the promises and covenants, but we are not by flesh...Jews.
Once saved, always saved? I don't think so: Where in the Bible does it say that? In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite. You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.
Heres a scripture for you if you don't think God was not a man, He was Jesus!
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two). We can do that. However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.
Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings? Righteous overmuch? What do you mean by that? Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT". I did not scream anything. Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't. I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life. I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist. Would you like to compare credentials. Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge. I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world. That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.[/quote]
Quotes i'm responding to are numbered in order you said them.
1. "In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray. He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would). He is God in the midst of them and not man. He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises."
Thank you for the context of the verse but he's still saying he's not a man.
2. Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So lets recap shall we:
1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb
Right but these are after the 144K, that are bought from the earth or sealed as Revelation 7:4 reads
Revelation 14:1-5 makes it clear that the 144K are bought from the earth and are the first fruits of mankind.
14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
The ones that are not of the 144K the other sheep are of the earth, these are the ones that are going to reside on it forever. The verse below is a prophecy(I checked the context)
Psalms 37:29 reads 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.
Although it says land in KJ, verses 27 and 28 imply an unlimited time, who possesses a land forever?
3. Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?
Just quoting so I can explain it easier and for emphasis
9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
To show you that the 144K are from all of mankind and not just Hebrews/Israelites, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but no one has been proven by science to be apart of the line of Jesus(that is Hebrew/Israelite) which is the same as being a fleshly Jew(literal Jew) but you can be a spirituality Jewish even though someone is a gentile as I already pointed out in my previous post. Hebrews/Israelites are one people, their not part of the native american tribes, they don't speak Icelandic though it might have been possible during pentecost :-, Hebrews/Israelites are not hawaiian and they didn't have a nation God didn't approve of(unless they sinned), I can go on and on but I think you get the point. This also corresponds to Revelation 14 because only the 144K are mentioned to be singing a new song and they are also the only ones mentioned to rule as kings over the earth.
This is in harmony with Matthew 22:28-30 28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.
For one thing, we are not talking about who is going to rule the earth. We are not talking about the proof of trinity over one God either. However, I addressed this in another thread myself. Either stay on topic, or you can debate this by yourself. I've conversed with JW's before, and you all like to confuse the topic with throwing out a bunch of scriptures that don't even pertain to the topic. It does not lend credence to your side of debate, it only confuses the issue, which I believe you do deliberately.
I wrote down clear and concise scriptures on the 144,000. You either believe it or not. I gave proof (in scripture) of the 12 tribes of Israel (are Jews and nobody else), and the 12,000 are taken from each tribe, to total 144,000. I also pinpointed the redeemed, who is the multitude without number. ALL is in the 7th Chapter of Revelation.
Now.....if you don't believe what the Bible says, then we have nothing to discuss. What I do see here is you are pulling all kinds of scripture into this that have NOTHING to do with what we are discussing.
Your scripture you threw out there In Matthew 22:28-30, is NOT in harmony at all with what we are discussing (your words above) It is about a woman marrying and her husbands dying, and who's wife shall she be in the resurrection.....on and on. Clearly not what we are talking about!!!!
What are the scriptures about possessing the earth? What has that got to do with the 144,000? We are not talking about possessing the earth. That is a total different study and subject altogether.
What in the world does Psalms 37:29 have to do with what we are talking about? Yes, it says that the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever. So ???
Since you cannot seem to stay on topic, but are throwing in scriptures here and there that have nothing to do with what we are talking about, I don't have time for games like this. It's like you are snarling the subject up as much as possible, and trying to hide the true meaning under a bunch of scriptures that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.
In Genesis Chapter 49, it tells of the twelve tribe of Israel.
1. Rueben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Zebulun
6. Issachar
7. Dan
8. Gad
9. Asher
10. Naphtali
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin
All Hebrew Children..........
Revelation Chapter 7: 4-8
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. All the tribes are mentioned in this Chapter of being sealed. Twelve thousand from each tribe.
Another scripture you quoted: In Rev 14:1-5 Yes, they are from the earth, and they are the firstfruits, they have not defiled themselves with women, which lends to them being male, virgins point to them being young. Maybe even the unborn, or children. Doesn't remove the fact that they are still Jews.
Firstfruits: according to Strongs Concordance (Rev. 14:4) definition in the Old Greek (536):
aparche, ap-ar-khayd'; from a compound or 575 and 576; a beginning of sacrifice, i.e. the (Jewish) first-
fruit (fig.) first-fruits (copied verbatim from Concordance Greek definition of firstfruits)
What makes you think that the 144,000, and the righteous are the only ones on earth during the 1,000 year reign or years of peace where the Lion lays down with the lamb, etc. etc? This is the time when satan is bound for 1,000 years, and life continues on earth in peace. Jesus, and his redeemed will rule and reign with him. There are still people left on the earth. The earth doesn't get destroyed until after the devil has been loosed and there is the war to end all wars. Then there is a new Heaven and new Earth.
However, this is off topic.
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Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist. I celebrate the differences in people. Just wanted to clarify that for you. I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.
For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile. By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT. I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith. When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted. I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability. I hope this makes sense.
Not really......
Is not Jewish being Hebrew? Being Jewish is a race is it not? So you are saying that if I was born Jewish, but got a revelation that Jesus was actually the Messiah, I would not be considered Jewish anymore? In other words, I would be shunned by my Jewish family and friends? I have heard of this happening.
What I understand you saying....but I could be wrong. That in order to be viewed as Jewish, I need to follow Judaism only? My race is white (caucasian), but I'm a Christian. Just because I'm a Christian, does not change my race of still being white.
Anybody who is Christian believes in both the OT and NT. They would not be Christian otherwise. Christians are those who heard the Salvation message and acted on it. Believing on, and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount to being Christian, and obtaining forgiveness/remission of sins, redemption, and renewing. All needed to enter Heaven.
If you actually believe all the other books (including the Bible) like the Koran, etc., you would have nothing but contradiction and confusion. As far as Eve eating the forbidden fruit, it was not a positive act that we need to preserve it or honor it in anyway. It's a lesson in the downfall, and the start of sinful nature in man. through the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all born in sinful flesh.
Your race is your race regardless of your faith. If you claim to be of the Jewish faith, though, you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept. "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" are not of the Jewish faith but Christians because they believe Jesus was the Messiah. People who practice Judaism do not. Its all in the link I posted.
I didn't say I actually believed all the other books, just that I read and study them. I thought my statement was clear when I addressed Jcribb saying that I only profess one faith. Just because one reads other books doesn't mean they follow that line of thinking. I read all four Twilight books, but that doesn't mean I believe vampires are real or that Edward Cullen was a dreamboat.
We have already determined that we don't agree on the meaning behind the act of Eve eating the apple. I can't help but wonder if you are just trying to pick a fight with me here, Annella. :BangHead:
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Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist. I celebrate the differences in people. Just wanted to clarify that for you. I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.
For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile. By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT. I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith. When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted. I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability. I hope this makes sense.
Not really......
Is not Jewish being Hebrew? Being Jewish is a race is it not? So you are saying that if I was born Jewish, but got a revelation that Jesus was actually the Messiah, I would not be considered Jewish anymore? In other words, I would be shunned by my Jewish family and friends? I have heard of this happening.
What I understand you saying....but I could be wrong. That in order to be viewed as Jewish, I need to follow Judaism only? My race is white (caucasian), but I'm a Christian. Just because I'm a Christian, does not change my race of still being white.
Anybody who is Christian believes in both the OT and NT. They would not be Christian otherwise. Christians are those who heard the Salvation message and acted on it. Believing on, and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount to being Christian, and obtaining forgiveness/remission of sins, redemption, and renewing. All needed to enter Heaven.
If you actually believe all the other books (including the Bible) like the Koran, etc., you would have nothing but contradiction and confusion. As far as Eve eating the forbidden fruit, it was not a positive act that we need to preserve it or honor it in anyway. It's a lesson in the downfall, and the start of sinful nature in man. through the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all born in sinful flesh.
Your race is your race regardless of your faith. If you claim to be of the Jewish faith, though, you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept. "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" are not of the Jewish faith but Christians because they believe Jesus was the Messiah. People who practice Judaism do not. Its all in the link I posted.
I didn't say I actually believed all the other books, just that I read and study them. I thought my statement was clear when I addressed Jcribb saying that I only profess one faith. Just because one reads other books doesn't mean they follow that line of thinking. I read all four Twilight books, but that doesn't mean I believe vampires are real or that Edward Cullen was a dreamboat.
We have already determined that we don't agree on the meaning behind the act of Eve eating the apple. I can't help but wonder if you are just trying to pick a fight with me here, Annella. :BangHead:
No Amy I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your statement was not clear to me. Don't make this personal because it isn't. Your correct, we don't agree on a lot of things by far. However, I really (truthfully) did not understand what you were implying in your post.
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The bible tells us that ther is none righteous no not one that includes me too. We could never be good enough to go to heaven that is why jesus camde to give us a ticket to heaven :notworthy:
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The bible tells us that ther is none righteous no not one that includes me too. We could never be good enough to go to heaven that is why jesus camde to give us a ticket to heaven :notworthy:
:thumbsup:
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My answer to your response are in the order you said them. responses 1-7 are here this is a response to ANNELA just in case someone was wondering who I was talking to or if someone continues the conversation that's NOT ANNELA they'll know who I was talking to.
1. For one thing, we are not talking about who is going to rule the earth. We are not talking about the proof of trinity over one God either. However, I addressed this in another thread myself. Either stay on topic, or you can debate this by yourself. I've conversed with JW's before, and you all like to confuse the topic with throwing out a bunch of scriptures that don't even pertain to the topic. It does not lend credence to your side of debate, it only confuses the issue, which I believe you do deliberately.
The ones that rule the earth are the ones that go to heaven(they co-rule with christ), you the one who posted the trin proof text not me, I just posted a link about most of them , I think the problem is your continuing a conversation I had with Amy so it's naturally a little crazy and at times off-topic, the God being a man was an example to Amy to show her if the bible says something and I quote what it says i'm not judging the bible is. Admittedly staying on topic is a serious fault with me, it's not an issue about using the bible correctly or even the JW's themselves i've always been like that even if i'm not talking about the bible, I can just be in a normal conversation and still be off-topic. Also i'm not trying to confuse or go off-topic believe it or not, maybe I should explainn why I choose the scriptures in my post instead of just letting the reader figure it out for themselves? ??? I'm working on it :'(
2. I wrote down clear and concise scriptures on the 144,000. You either believe it or not. I gave proof (in scripture) of the 12 tribes of Israel (are Jews and nobody else), and the 12,000 are taken from each tribe, to total 144,000. I also pinpointed the redeemed, who is the multitude without number. ALL is in the 7th Chapter of Revelation.
Actually you wrote down one set of scriptures on the 144K and then you wrote about the ones with no number. There are scriptures about the 144K and theres scriptures about the great crowd of multitude who is on earth(they don't rule with Christ or sing the new song.) I gave you clear scripture showing that they can't all be literal Jews but instead spiritual Jews that's why I showed you Revelation 5:9-10 and then I explained how they can't all be literal which i'll post again shortly. My point is if all good people are in heaven(that is after God chooses who is good or not) then the 144K and Jesus have no one to rule over on earth. I have no issues with Revelation 7 and I do believe it all, is the standing before God mean they are in heaven? Tell me if you think that or not and i'll explain my interpretation of that. Anyway here's my quote and response, now that you know why I choose the verse which IS talking about the 144K(or at least I hope you know :'( )
9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
To show you that the 144K are from all of mankind and not just Hebrews/Israelites, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but no one has been proven by science to be apart of the line of Jesus(that is Hebrew/Israelite) which is the same as being a fleshly Jew(literal Jew) but you can be a spirituality Jewish even though someone is a gentile as I already pointed out in my previous post. Hebrews/Israelites are one people, their not part of the native american tribes, they don't speak Icelandic though it might have been possible during pentecost :-, Hebrews/Israelites are not hawaiian and they didn't have a nation God didn't approve of(unless they sinned), I can go on and on but I think you get the point. This also corresponds to Revelation 14 because only the 144K are mentioned to be singing a new song and they are also the only ones mentioned to rule as kings over the earth.
3. Your scripture you threw out there In Matthew 22:28-30, is NOT in harmony at all with what we are discussing (your words above) It is about a woman marrying and her husbands dying, and who's wife shall she be in the resurrection.....on and on. Clearly not what we are talking about!!!!
Your right i'm srry I that I cited it wrong the scripture below talks about those co-ruling with Christ yes Jehovah(the father) and Jesus are NOT the only ones sitting on thrones during the 1,000 year reign, it also uses the 12 tribes of Israel in a figurative sense, possibly Israel in a spiritual sense and not literal sense.
The scripture is Matthew 19:28-29(I quadruple checked this time) and it says 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life.
4. What in the world does Psalms 37:29 have to do with what we are talking about? Yes, it says that the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever. So ???
Those are the ones who are going to be on Earth and not on heaven those are the multitude who will NOT rule the Earth(co-rule with Christ in heaven, the ones in heaven are to be kings with Christ)
5. In Genesis Chapter 49, it tells of the twelve tribe of Israel.
1. Rueben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Zebulun
6. Issachar
7. Dan
8. Gad
9. Asher
10. Naphtali
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin
All Hebrew Children..........
Revelation Chapter 7: 4-8
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. All the tribes are mentioned in this Chapter of being sealed. Twelve thousand from each tribe.
Take another look at the tribe listings they're different. Possibly to show the same order but not literally the same tribes?
6. Another scripture you quoted: In Rev 14:1-5 Yes, they are from the earth, and they are the firstfruits, they have not defiled themselves with women, which lends to them being male, virgins point to them being young. Maybe even the unborn, or children. Doesn't remove the fact that they are still Jews.
They are not just from Earth they are bought from earth and they co-rule with Christ(Kings of the earth or Lords of the earth), i'm saying they co-rule with your God the SON in heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
7. What makes you think that the 144,000, and the righteous are the only ones on earth during the 1,000 year reign or years of peace where the Lion lays down with the lamb, etc. etc? This is the time when satan is bound for 1,000 years, and life continues on earth in peace. Jesus, and his redeemed will rule and reign with him. There are still people left on the earth. The earth doesn't get destroyed until after the devil has been loosed and there is the war to end all wars. Then there is a new Heaven and new Earth.
I've been trying to show you this whole time that heaven is exclusive to the 144K only and you think I was trying to say that they are on EARTH??!!! Man my communication is terrible!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm interested in knowing why you think the great crowd rules with Christ before and after the 1,000 years? Also who are the people still on earth if they're not the great crowd or redeemed as you say? Also why do you think the earth will be destroyed is it because of 2 Peter 3:7-10? If so did the Earth and Heaven in Noah's day get destroyed(2 Peter 3:5-6)? Moreover what would fire do to stars and elements in space that are already intensely hot? ???
I tried to stay on topic and I explained even more why I used the scriptures I used, if i'm still off-topic to you then I don't know what else I can do I tried, if it was because of me mis-citing a scripture then i'm sorry.
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Okay, this is getting really messed up and it's time to stop. Every time you post, you have doubled the questions, and it throws things totally off topic. You are going in all different directions. It's impossible to understand a Biblical concept to it's end when it keeps getting mucked up with other questions that have nothing to do with it. Enough is enough.
There is no way I can untangle everything you are asking in the last post because it sounds as if you are totally confused, and asking 10 things at once, and you have those 10 things in the same hat, and you keep adding more questions and levels to the same 10 things. Scripture is not hard to interpret because scripture interprets scripture. There are months of study in the questions or statements I believe you are trying to make. I don't have the time, and these questions are not Salvational issues. You don't need them to be saved. Time will give us all the answers of Revelation, and what will actually be.
I can gather from some of your posts that we do disagree a lot on scripture, and I'm going to leave it at that. This is getting confusing when it doesn't need to be. My Bible tells me that God is not the author of confusion, so I end it now.
Note: Following the 12 tribes of Israel, and tracing them through the Bible will tell you why some names are different, but they are the same 12 tribes. The study spans generations, but the same tribes. Start there.
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As stated in Titus 3:4-5 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He save us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.
God knows who repent and accepts HIM as his Saviour. Then, struggling to follow him as Holy no matter how hard it is, in order to be deserving on His kingdom.
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Okay, this is getting really messed up and it's time to stop. Every time you post, you have doubled the questions, and it throws things totally off topic. You are going in all different directions. It's impossible to understand a Biblical concept to it's end when it keeps getting mucked up with other questions that have nothing to do with it. Enough is enough.
There is no way I can untangle everything you are asking in the last post because it sounds as if you are totally confused, and asking 10 things at once, and you have those 10 things in the same hat, and you keep adding more questions and levels to the same 10 things. Scripture is not hard to interpret because scripture interprets scripture. There are months of study in the questions or statements I believe you are trying to make. I don't have the time, and these questions are not Salvational issues. You don't need them to be saved. Time will give us all the answers of Revelation, and what will actually be.
I can gather from some of your posts that we do disagree a lot on scripture, and I'm going to leave it at that. This is getting confusing when it doesn't need to be. My Bible tells me that God is not the author of confusion, so I end it now.
Note: Following the 12 tribes of Israel, and tracing them through the Bible will tell you why some names are different, but they are the same 12 tribes. The study spans generations, but the same tribes. Start there.
I see questioning your responses throws the topic off and is apparently evil to you. I learn by gaining understanding(being inquisitive) with the help of God's spirit.
Scripture DOESencourage reason and logic and questioning etc
Romans 12:1-2, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, Acts 17:11, Proverbs 2:1-12, 1 John 4:1
1 Peter 3:15 reads But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.
That's what I demanded and you shut me down, i'm going to make a trinity thread next month, i'll ask one question at a time and cite scriptures but I won't post them, I hope you will be there :'(!
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Okay, this is getting really messed up and it's time to stop. Every time you post, you have doubled the questions, and it throws things totally off topic. You are going in all different directions. It's impossible to understand a Biblical concept to it's end when it keeps getting mucked up with other questions that have nothing to do with it. Enough is enough.
There is no way I can untangle everything you are asking in the last post because it sounds as if you are totally confused, and asking 10 things at once, and you have those 10 things in the same hat, and you keep adding more questions and levels to the same 10 things. Scripture is not hard to interpret because scripture interprets scripture. There are months of study in the questions or statements I believe you are trying to make. I don't have the time, and these questions are not Salvational issues. You don't need them to be saved. Time will give us all the answers of Revelation, and what will actually be.
I can gather from some of your posts that we do disagree a lot on scripture, and I'm going to leave it at that. This is getting confusing when it doesn't need to be. My Bible tells me that God is not the author of confusion, so I end it now.
Note: Following the 12 tribes of Israel, and tracing them through the Bible will tell you why some names are different, but they are the same 12 tribes. The study spans generations, but the same tribes. Start there.
I see questioning your responses throws the topic off and is apparently evil to you. I learn by gaining understanding(being inquisitive) with the help of God's spirit.
Scripture DOESencourage reason and logic and questioning etc
Romans 12:1-2, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, Acts 17:11, Proverbs 2:1-12, 1 John 4:1
1 Peter 3:15 reads But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.
That's what I demanded and you shut me down, i'm going to make a trinity thread next month, i'll ask one question at a time and cite scriptures but I won't post them, I hope you will be there :'(!
Nothing is evil to me except the enemy and his works.
Um, you did not ask me about the hope within me. I also stated that what we were discussing were NOT Salvational issues....am I right? That would be in accordance of the hope that is within me (Salvation). We were discussing prophecy. While you think I'm shutting you down (your words). I merely realize that I cannot give you what you want. We interpret the scriptures of prophecy very differently.....that's all.
I have many things to attend to as a Minister, and this forum is just a sideline. I come here to make my $3 a month with posts. Please don't "demand" anything, as that is not the right spirit. In fact, you misquoted the scripture of I Peter 3:15.
I Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. (KJV)
My Salvation is based on Act 2:38 of the Bible. I've repented, been baptized in Jesus Name, and been filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. That's the "hope" that is within me. Christ in me the hope of Glory (Colossians 2:27 (b)).
Take care.......