To not insult the intelligence of "others" this thread is not directed to those that have an issue with the BibleI don't read fiction.
This thread is for those who Enjoy reading the bible.
I rather the KJV and find no fault with the NIV for reference.
i don't read bibleTo not insult the intelligence of "others" this thread is not directed to those that have an issue with the BibleI don't read fiction.
This thread is for those who Enjoy reading the bible.
I rather the KJV and find no fault with the NIV for reference.
Scofield KJV ~ I have been reading the Bible from Gensis to Revelations for the past 22+ years. I try to have my devotions the first thing in the morning. The more I read and study the more I amazed at how ignorant I still am of God's Word.
KJV, NWT, and the BoM.
At least I did read and compare them up until I closed them in disgust. There are far better, enjoyable, and enlightening things to read in this world than an ancient book about a guilt-tripping childish god and magical superheroes who play the false-dilemma game left and right.
Hey Falconer so you always wake up miserable (Misery loves company so I'll be your friend),
So if you choose not to yet you're still so miserable?
Try something new. Ask God to reveal himself to you and read KJV Bible "Gospel of John."
I would recommend the NIV for translation but a person with your vast intellect needs no translation right?
Hey Falconer so you always wake up miserable (Misery loves company so I'll be your friend),
So if you choose not to yet you're still so miserable?
Try something new. Ask God to reveal himself to you and read KJV Bible "Gospel of John."
I would recommend the NIV for translation but a person with your vast intellect needs no translation right?
So I take it you're turning down my friend request.
Christianity does involve science, just differs from your expectation.
So you're miseries are from others not doing what you want (my son cries for the same thing too).
the outcome will be different because God can and will use the experiences you've developed through your unbelief.
But this goes beyond just having faith, it's a realization that you were created with and for a purpose, that there's a spiritual battle going on over our souls, that God loves us beyond measure but our sins separate us from him (Through Christ death & resurrection we're restored), Lastly all that's going on right now will come to an end, and God will judge the all, believers and atheist alike.
Scofield Study bible has the answers you seek.
QuoteSo I take it you're turning down my friend request.
That was NOT a friend request. That statement just took me awkwardly because you're assuming false things and antagonizing/insulting me. And you still are from this sentence I quoted! First you call me miserable and then you say I'm turning down a friend request? Then later in your last post you compare me to your immature kid? I mean this in the sincerest way possible, but you really need to work on your social skills if this is how you try to make new friends. Others may show disdain towards you.QuoteChristianity does involve science, just differs from your expectation.
Creationism is furthest from science. Mixing any god with science is just like mixing astrology with astronomy. Science has the ability to change for the better-- religion has difficulty with just the word 'change'.QuoteSo you're miseries are from others not doing what you want (my son cries for the same thing too).
Everyone has the right to believe what they believe as long as it does not harm others. That is what I believe and want. Not a bad thing to live by, right? When I still see dogmatic religions constantly intruding into peoples' lives like they have massively in the past and present, I get a little disgruntled. It's constantly in the news-- religion striking and trying to dominate education, politics, morals, sex, etc.-- religion is constantly intruding in all of these and guilt-tripping people into doing what your religion wants them to do-- what your religion thinks is right. And when they don't get their way, they parade around saying "this is proof that the end is near!" So it's quite the opposite.
Btw I like the little antagonizing thing you put comparing your whining son to me. Very nasty! ;)Quotethe outcome will be different because God can and will use the experiences you've developed through your unbelief.
I plan to study islamic beliefs next because strangely they say the same thing. As do many others. No-- not to convert to a muslim, but just to understand it better. So as far as the bible goes- been there, done that.QuoteBut this goes beyond just having faith, it's a realization that you were created with and for a purpose, that there's a spiritual battle going on over our souls, that God loves us beyond measure but our sins separate us from him (Through Christ death & resurrection we're restored), Lastly all that's going on right now will come to an end, and God will judge the all, believers and atheist alike.
Please explain to me how it's fair that a god will judge all of mankind when he knew from day one what they all were going to do (seeing how he's all-knowing, omnipotent, perfect, etc.). It's like knowing a dog hasn't been outside for 12 hours and is whining to go pee (and you know the signs that it's about to pee), and when it finally pees all over the carpet you scold and slap it. Explain to me how either of these situations are not malevolent.QuoteScofield Study bible has the answers you seek.
Well I'll just plop down 50$ and start re--wait a minute! This was all a sales pitch! I knew it! lol
1. It was a friend request but you have to admit that because you're so passionate about being at Christians you were not expecting that I would actually request your friend ship, which the offer is still open if you'll accept.
2.Christianity is all about CHANGE, and that's the reason why it's rejected because of it's the opposite of what people are used to.
3.In comparison to my son it was in no means to insult your intelligence, but a jest to rebuttal the disdain you show towards my belief while saying you're free to believe what you want but when I do so it angers you (am I not entitled to my beliefs)
4. So how is it that you fail to recognize God but you're willing to go in pursuit of religions? I'm asking that you give the passage I quoted another chance, being more open minded, and I guarantee a different result seeing that your understanding is a lot more advanced that it was then.
. We were all have free will, the ability to make a choice. Adam and Eve sinned yet God showed mercy and blessed them (Genesis 3:21-22 clothed them, left them with a knowledge of good & evil.) Imagine a road that goes directly to your destination and another that doesn't. We have a choice to stay on the road that does or chose otherwise, God gave us that choice but we choose otherwise and when we encounter trouble even then He's still willing to help.
CHOOSE YOUR DESTINATION? AND IF YOU CHOOSE OTHERWISE, JUST AS A PARENT WOULD SCOLD A CHILD, WE'LL RECEIVE JUDGEMENT FOR OUR CHOICE!! To me that's FAIR.
By now you should realize that I've been Forward yes but not judgmental as some tend to be, except for times when we're debating, Also I apologize if I have offended you at any given time. So what's the next question or should I do another post.
Quote1. It was a friend request but you have to admit that because you're so passionate about being at Christians you were not expecting that I would actually request your friend ship, which the offer is still open if you'll accept.
Being what? But sure! No problem on this end-- we're just having a debate here.Quote2.Christianity is all about CHANGE, and that's the reason why it's rejected because of it's the opposite of what people are used to.
If christianity is all about change, why can't any christian change all of the massive things that are wrong in the bible (scientifically, historically, and morally)? Even the first chapter is chok-full of obvious errors and all christians tend to do is say "it says this but it actually means this!" That's just bad writing. It says there are 2 light sources for the earth when there's only one, that light was created before the light sources, etc. How can one trust a book in its entirety when it's so massively wrong in the first chapter?Quote3.In comparison to my son it was in no means to insult your intelligence, but a jest to rebuttal the disdain you show towards my belief while saying you're free to believe what you want but when I do so it angers you (am I not entitled to my beliefs)
Where did I say you're not entitled to your beliefs? I'm saying it's proving to be a problem within our society since people are pushing them onto things which shouldn't have them. The bible itself is a very wordy, sketchy, and surprisingly evil book if you read it from start to finish.Quote4. So how is it that you fail to recognize God but you're willing to go in pursuit of religions? I'm asking that you give the passage I quoted another chance, being more open minded, and I guarantee a different result seeing that your understanding is a lot more advanced that it was then.
Because, like my original post in this thread said, I have already studied christianity. It is full of holes and false information. Ontop of all that, there's an evil jealous child-like genocidal god that allows for eternal torture! Yikes! I hope you realize there are a lot of deities out there and I just want to learn about them and why people believe in them. You're telling me that's not being open-minded? Your god is just one of many and people believe that they're all true gods. Knowing that, one could say you and I are practically both atheists. I just believe in one less god than you.Quote. We were all have free will, the ability to make a choice. Adam and Eve sinned yet God showed mercy and blessed them (Genesis 3:21-22 clothed them, left them with a knowledge of good & evil.) Imagine a road that goes directly to your destination and another that doesn't. We have a choice to stay on the road that does or chose otherwise, God gave us that choice but we choose otherwise and when we encounter trouble even then He's still willing to help.
Again, how can we have free will when your god knows your future actions already since he's all-knowing and omnipotent? Explain to me how that's fair when he already knows what you're going to do. Secondly, don't you think it's kind of evil to give Adam and Eve the knowledge of right and wrong after they made the wrong choice? Because that's what it says in the bible.QuoteCHOOSE YOUR DESTINATION? AND IF YOU CHOOSE OTHERWISE, JUST AS A PARENT WOULD SCOLD A CHILD, WE'LL RECEIVE JUDGEMENT FOR OUR CHOICE!! To me that's FAIR.
You really haven't answered anything so I can't choose a destination. And there's a big difference between scolding a child for something and knowing beforehand and then watching the child do the bad deed followed by eternally punishing him.QuoteBy now you should realize that I've been Forward yes but not judgmental as some tend to be, except for times when we're debating, Also I apologize if I have offended you at any given time. So what's the next question or should I do another post.
Oh no worries. Trust me-- there have been some absolutely terrible and scary religious people on this forum.
The bible has no error just life examples that relates to our day to day lifestyle, in the end it proves that when we refuse to follow God's precepts we are prone to fall into uncomfortable positions requiring God's assistance to get us out again.
but the world has been fairing for the worst in their choices as you stated before even with the way we treat the world we live in.
When I said open minded I'm simply saying that you've perceived the bible wrong in many ways, so approach it without a judgmental attitude, choosing not to be clairvoyant (choosing the outcome before reading) And again, this is not a sales pitch, I simply recommend the Scofield Study Bible because it's a version that's not biased or misleading
I know this will only lead to another question but it's simple God has set a path for us, when we come to him that strong hold that sin had in our life is broken, thus opening up a door of possibilities for us to make it to Heaven or choose Hell, there's no predestination God is simply saying if you wanna make it follow my lead if not you're going to fail. Your destiny is in your hand/choice, I am always with you should you change your mind but I won't force you. God is not going to force us
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Also know this that I have utmost respect for you, and your desire to know for yourself we all need that. But I still recommend you give the bible another chance.
QuoteThe bible has no error just life examples that relates to our day to day lifestyle, in the end it proves that when we refuse to follow God's precepts we are prone to fall into uncomfortable positions requiring God's assistance to get us out again.
The bible has plenty of errors. So many infact that you could find truckloads of them by just doing a simple search on google and doing 2 minutes of research. And life examples? You mean like in Deuteronomy 22:28-29?
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Or how about 2nd Chronicles 15:12-13?
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
What about the whopper in 2 Kings 2:23-24
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.
Seriously, you willingly preach and advertise a book that contains this stuff? And this is just the tip of the iceburg! Stuff like this is all over the bible. Rape, incest, murder, genocide, torture, infanticide-- you name it!Quotebut the world has been fairing for the worst in their choices as you stated before even with the way we treat the world we live in.
This is because there's a lack of education. Not because there's a lack of one deity.QuoteWhen I said open minded I'm simply saying that you've perceived the bible wrong in many ways, so approach it without a judgmental attitude, choosing not to be clairvoyant (choosing the outcome before reading) And again, this is not a sales pitch, I simply recommend the Scofield Study Bible because it's a version that's not biased or misleading
I originally read much of it in a christian-mindset. Once I got through Numbers, I was quite blown away by the horrific nature of it all. So I took a skeptical approach and did more research and realized it's just all false and full of mythical heroes.QuoteI know this will only lead to another question but it's simple God has set a path for us, when we come to him that strong hold that sin had in our life is broken, thus opening up a door of possibilities for us to make it to Heaven or choose Hell, there's no predestination God is simply saying if you wanna make it follow my lead if not you're going to fail. Your destiny is in your hand/choice, I am always with you should you change your mind but I won't force you. God is not going to force us
Okay so...god has set a path for everyone and so he 'programmed' us to fail and break? And after that he judges everyone and allows one to choose eternal punishment which is due to his programming? Again, how is that not malevolent? Unless this god is intentionally evil or very imperfect, it makes absolutely no sense at all.QuoteGenesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Now this is simple and ancient guilt-tripping in a nutshell. Do you really think mankind is this constantly evil? That right now both you and I are plotting to poison the kool-aid? Of course not! Any decent person could recognize this is complete hogwash. I don't know about you, but I like knowing that people are free to do as they please and arent bound down to a god that intentionally allows bad things to happen, knows beforehand that they will happen, and then blames us for having them happen. That's just immature and evil parenting, right?QuoteAlso know this that I have utmost respect for you, and your desire to know for yourself we all need that. But I still recommend you give the bible another chance.
Right back atcha! I may reread it one day, but atm it's last on my list of things to study...again. I've developed a poor habit of finishing books and I think throwing the bible in my lap again is probably a bad decision. Too much stuff going on around here!
This is the very reason why I recommend that you read the bible, You're still at the introduction, though I must say I admire your perception it is without truth, ill explain.
Leviticus, numbers and Deuteronomy are books that contains laws and instructions that are specifically to the Jews, the descendants of Abraham, a man that God had found faithful and chose to bless him and his descendants. Now god gave them his laws while Moses gave them others that he felt would be a guideline for them (Jews.) I could go in dept into that but since you're not a Jew (don't assume) Acts 15:19-20 shares that everyone else is exempted from these requirements. As no one is bound under those laws anymore but under Grace. (Romans 6:14)
The bible is tailored in a way in which it's readers are led to start from the New Testament then to the Old Testament why because that's the time we're in know the times then go back to the history and you'll gain a wider understanding. (Yes I know it sounds weird, but that's why it's not for reading but studying, the more one reads the bible the more your understanding of it increases.) that's why I recommended the Book of John and the Scofield Notes for Interpretation
believe it or not it's a prophetic book and nearly all religions are developed from it, business men gain ideals and ideas from it.
Like I said before, the Bible is no ordinary book that you just read and understand and be able pass judgment on. It's not the largest selling book ever written for nothing. Scientist wouldn't be using it to get a paycheck if it was that simple a book. They wouldn't be able to deceive you with their theories?
You of all people should understand this since you enjoy your freewill so much. God gives us a simple choice choose him or Don't? He won't choose for you. Now you should find out "what influences your decision" and not blame God for the privilege of choice you were given.
My friend as I've pointed out you've never actually read the bible, unless you followed the format I gave. From New Testament to Old Testament. any other way and the results will be flawed, confusion and boredom etc.
QuoteThis is the very reason why I recommend that you read the bible, You're still at the introduction, though I must say I admire your perception it is without truth, ill explain.
Leviticus, numbers and Deuteronomy are books that contains laws and instructions that are specifically to the Jews, the descendants of Abraham, a man that God had found faithful and chose to bless him and his descendants. Now god gave them his laws while Moses gave them others that he felt would be a guideline for them (Jews.) I could go in dept into that but since you're not a Jew (don't assume) Acts 15:19-20 shares that everyone else is exempted from these requirements. As no one is bound under those laws anymore but under Grace. (Romans 6:14)
The bible is tailored in a way in which it's readers are led to start from the New Testament then to the Old Testament why because that's the time we're in know the times then go back to the history and you'll gain a wider understanding. (Yes I know it sounds weird, but that's why it's not for reading but studying, the more one reads the bible the more your understanding of it increases.) that's why I recommended the Book of John and the Scofield Notes for Interpretation
But the more I studied the bible and the more I read it, the more I understood how goofy and inconsistant it was. Admittedly the OT was pretty wordy and I got bored of it, so I skipped to Matt, Mark, Luke, and John and afterwards I was just left with "...that's it?" in my mind. I don't understand why anyone would want to have a relationship with a god who willingly kills people over his childish jealousy and amusement. Even if he were real, I would never bow or accept a murderous deity that allows for such atrocities stated in the bible. I don't really know about you, but I know I have a better moral sense than a god who slaughters 40 kids just because they made fun of some bald dude who he was friends with. Seriously, wth?Quotebelieve it or not it's a prophetic book and nearly all religions are developed from it, business men gain ideals and ideas from it.
Business men get ideals and ideas from truckloads of other things both good and bad. I would recommend someone to take business classes or get internships with reputable companies rather than just read an ancient book. As a joke, let me requote Deuteronomy 22:28-29-
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What a steal...I mean deal!QuoteLike I said before, the Bible is no ordinary book that you just read and understand and be able pass judgment on. It's not the largest selling book ever written for nothing. Scientist wouldn't be using it to get a paycheck if it was that simple a book. They wouldn't be able to deceive you with their theories?
You mean like the theory of gravity? Or medicine? or culture? Because if you're referring to evolution being deceiving, you might as well swear off every other scientific theory too. Evolution is the fundamental principle of biology and it has been proven countless times-- to say otherwise is showing a severe lack of basic education. We use evolutionary principles when we develop medicines. You can actually see micro-evolution happen with your own eyes and macro-evolution can be somewhat demonstrated in the same fashion. The fossil record has an over-abundance of proof as well. The bible is just so wrong about everything in that fashion because it was written by primitive people that thought the world looked like this-
http://christthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/hebrew-cosmology.jpg
In this world, there are more historians who think the holocaust didn't happen than there are scientists who think the bible is an accurate depiction of the scientific world.QuoteYou of all people should understand this since you enjoy your freewill so much. God gives us a simple choice choose him or Don't? He won't choose for you. Now you should find out "what influences your decision" and not blame God for the privilege of choice you were given.
For the third time now you've hovered right over the question. With that said, how can I have freewill if this god of yours already knows what my choice will be because he's all-knowing and all-powerful? Since he created everything and lives in the past, present, and future, he has already chosen for me because he knows everything before it happens. The privilege of choice you mentioned is a mere illusion unless you can explain to me how christians aren't inherently fatalists due to your gods power.QuoteMy friend as I've pointed out you've never actually read the bible, unless you followed the format I gave. From New Testament to Old Testament. any other way and the results will be flawed, confusion and boredom etc.
What dumb writer would make their audience read a story at the climax and not the beginning? Oh...wait...I forgot about George Lucas! lol anyway this is just a mere opinion and if it were supposed to be read that way, the ancients should have made their god and their people apologize for all the terrible horrifying things in the rising actions (OT).
Now you're just going in circles, you have a very limited understanding of the bible and that's why your responses towards it is in this manner, believe it or not the Bible speaks of things past, present and future, and that's why you'll have to read it from the present, which is actually the part that's for you.
Now in an earlier statement you said you refuse to acknowledge a God that you can't understand his reason, well that's fine your choice.
Hell or Heaven your Choice and that's the simple truth to it.
QuoteNow you're just going in circles, you have a very limited understanding of the bible and that's why your responses towards it is in this manner, believe it or not the Bible speaks of things past, present and future, and that's why you'll have to read it from the present, which is actually the part that's for you.
If I don't understand the bible and you do, then why can't you answer any of my questions? How do you explain the many inconsistencies throughout the bible? How do you justify the slaughter of children by a god for no good reason? How do you justify any of the horrific displays of this deity throughout the bible and then believe that he loves man? How do you explain free will when a god created everything and knows all? What about the ties between Jesus and many other heroic fictional figures before Roman times? I don't get how one says they know more and then not answer anything.QuoteNow in an earlier statement you said you refuse to acknowledge a God that you can't understand his reason, well that's fine your choice.
Hell or Heaven your Choice and that's the simple truth to it.
I refuse to submit to any deity unless there's undeniable proof of it's existence. If this Abrahamic god exists, that means that I'm predestined to choose not to accept him because of him . That is completely unfair and malevolent. So if you believe in this god, how can you call it my choice when it was originally his idea for me to think this way?
My question is that if you are against free will (personal choice) when it comes to God/no god, wouldn't you have a problem with personal choice in every area of choices in your life? In other words, if we are a Christian, we are only making robot choices, but if someone is a non-christian, then they have complete free choice in all?
but there is no undeniable proof all the way around for the "no god" scientific point of view. You have faith in the scientific view just as others have faith in God.
It's after this, that the argument sets in with people, about how the earth and mankind were created, either by the big blast and/or mutation, or by an intelligent creator, such as God. That's where I believe that there had to be someone of higher intelligence than us that could create such perfection with the world, waters, land, and then the people, with their systems/organs/etc. working together with amazing proficiency.
And yet, because I cannot actually see and touch God, I choose to have faith in Him, by reading and researching His Word, studying history back in Biblical times, comparing that information with the Bible and other learned scholars in this subject.
I really Don't Read the Bible... Not because I dont Believe in God or his word... Because i do.. But because all of them books are so very Confusing to me. I just live my life as I taught myself. & though I dont read the Bible Nor do I go to church I am Gods Daughter, & i speak to him on my terms not in some building made by man. :)If, you do not read the bible nor study your professed belief system, how could you possibly know, what "his" word is?
I really Don't Read the Bible... Not because I dont Believe in God or his word... Because i do.. But because all of them books are so very Confusing to me. I just live my life as I taught myself. & though I dont read the Bible Nor do I go to church I am Gods Daughter, & i speak to him on my terms not in some building made by man. :)If, you do not read the bible nor study your professed belief system, how could you possibly know, what "his" word is?
OHHHHH.....I get it. You're GOD and know what she is thinking. Ok,, got it. Thanks Big Guy.I really Don't Read the Bible... Not because I dont Believe in God or his word... Because i do.. But because all of them books are so very Confusing to me. I just live my life as I taught myself. & though I dont read the Bible Nor do I go to church I am Gods Daughter, & i speak to him on my terms not in some building made by man. :)If, you do not read the bible nor study your professed belief system, how could you possibly know, what "his" word is?
That's simply because CONSCIENCE is one of the ways in which God reveals himself to man.
Romans 2:14-15
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
God will make a new heaven and a new earth for all who have accepted Him. But not before certain events are to happen, such as increased wars, major weather changes and calamities, persecution of Christians, etc. Once He comes to take the Christians with Him (the dead and the living), and all prophetic events happened up to that point, the devil will then have his 1,000 year reign. He is going to get whoever he can to follow him. From what I've learned, there will now be new generations of people who will be witnessed to and have the choice to accept Jesus or not. However, it will be much harder and complicated for the witnesses since believers were taken. Those who decide now to accept Jesus will be persecuted even more. If people do not agree to take the sign of the devil on them, then you won't have free entry to jobs, money, stores, food, etc. That will be a horrific time. After the 1,000 years are up, the devil and his followers will be sent to the place of punishment forever while Christians will be forever with God.
but I believe I will understand even that one day. I also know, after studying His Word, studying Biblical history, and the histories of the countries and people from the past, that so much agrees with each other in their events and facts
Revelation is, as you know, the last book of the Bible. While John was on the island at Patmos, he had a Vision of the Lord (which is not like our dreams of today, but was real - such as a prophetic vision) of the things to come before Christ comes again to take the believers, dead and alive, to Heaven with Him, and afterwards.
I would like to invite you to read the entire book of Revelation, but only as you so wish or not. It will cover so many things in this discussion. Chapter 13 discusses what I spoke about earlier about having to take the mark of the "beast" or it will be very hard to have jobs, cash, food, clothes, etc. So people will have to choose to worship the beast and get things they want and need, or worship the Lord, and be persecuted, killed, tortured, etc.
As Christians, we do not know all of the answers, nor are we expected to have to prove everything put before us. So, yes, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer for many questions put before us. We will find out one day what all of the answers are. Some people will be fine and some people will be regretful regarding decisions made for or against God. Science, itself, hasn't proven every little thing either, so in that respect, we are at a standstill when dicussing this subject.
It is not a "cult-like" philosophy either. People make their choice to either believe in God or not, believe in other gods or idols or not, and choose one religion over the other or not. None of that is cult-like behavior - it is free, personal, choice/will in what or who they believe in or stand for.
The reason I zeroed in on this instead of everything else you also brought up in your post, is because I wanted to go more into the history of Revelation, why John was on Patmos, and how a Christian is a firm believer in God's Word. These things will happen - it's all a matter of time. God has definitely given free choice to everyone - it may be a concept that is debatable but nevertheless, people can either accept or not accept the Lord.
First of all, I don't need to be backed in a corner in that you are giving me strict stipulations as to what I can write about prophecy being 100% fulfulled, or it is not a prophecy.
Since I believe in Christ, I take God's Word as literal, and I am not going to add to or change anything in Revelation to prove to you or anyone else that these prophecies will happen. They will happen.
I can still get back with you, later, with what we were discussing, including free will/personal choice. I just wanted to say these things. Thank you.
It's great to see a fellow believer holding firm to their beliefs and not being caught in a toe to toe debate that would lead one to acting off his own noetic and drifting away from the Word. Hats off to you.
Hey FalconerThank you Getinonthis! I've kept up with your postings as well. It's nice to meet you! :)
How have you been? ;D
jcribb16
It's great to see a fellow believer holding firm to their beliefs and not being caught in a toe to toe
debate that would lead one to acting off his own noetic and drifting away from the Word.
Hats off to you. :thumbsup:
A loving god would want to use your brain, right?
1. Whats your definition of a loving god?
2. And using of your brain in relation to that particular god?
"Broadly questioning legitimacy and existence compared to other gods who people believe are just as real as this one." and the ancient text contradictions.FACT mentioned below
Pardon me for not being as intellectual as you are, but I didn't quite see your definition of a loving God
Without bashing or comparing to any other god (for the simple FACT that you don't recognize them), what is your definition of a loving God?
Broadly questioning legitimacy and existence"
Simply put if God himself were to part the sky and pick you in his hands (which he will not do seeing that's your will and not his) that you would still have to Court-martial him. And thus if He is not to your standards you'd perform judgment
In your search to disprove God have you found any god to your liking, or that will succumb to your will or programming?
If this happened, I would be tortured eternally from the get-go seeing how I questioned and doubted his power and ability to love. Even so, he still would not be worthy of my worship because he is obviously evil. I'm not perfect, but I try to live a moral life. Considering your god is willingly genocidal, I think I have a better hand here.
And for the 14th or so time now, you've completely failed to explain how free will works into the whole picture. Since it's far beyond your reasoning skills, I'll just put it to rest and try to avoid it so I don't confuse you.I found that question to be irrelevant, but it took you 14 try's to realize that ;D I would not waste any effort there seeing you started out attacking my "FREE WILL" to serve the Only God I recognize, and attempted to drag other religious parties into the mix to indict me according to my beliefs.
Jainism however is a religion that I find no reason to argue against. It has no head-honcho god but at the same time practices peace to all organisms far beyond that of other major religions.At first I found it hard to understand how a Jain, which is supposed to be focused on enlightenment and peace with himself (an hermit lifestyle,) find time to be attacking the belief of others. And in such a way that it comes off as HATRED. Aren't you supposed to be a peaceful sect? :dontknow:
My point exactly, there is no sense in proving or convincing you that Jehovah is God because you've clearly established that you will not serve nor recognize His authority. Since I held no desire to consider you to be as a pagan or an atheist without proof (though at times you came off as one,) my intent was to cautiously see where your belief lies.
I found that question to be irrelevant, but it took you 14 try's to realize that I would not waste any effort there seeing you started out attacking my "FREE WILL" to serve the Only God I recognize,
Fal you're not without knowledge of the bible, you just refuse to acknowledge Jehovah's will. So there's no relevance in offering an explanation in an area that you've pointed out that God Himself could not persuade you.
Or is it that you're not a Jain either?
Quote1. Whats your definition of a loving god?
Hmm...I'll try to align this question so a christian would understand (which limits a lot of what I could say, but for the sake typing a lot...). A loving god would be one who does not throw his creations into a mess and then judges them due to his obvious mistakes and misuse of powers. This god would be one who would willingly show himself to his subjects and show proof of his existence (and not rely on blind faith and crazy ancient stories written by primitive people). They would allow them to question whatever they wished to question without any punishment or ignorance. A god that would allow his subjects to not worship him and would still help them-- no questions asked. A loving god would also not allow under any circumstance for any eternal punishment-- that alone would be beyond evil.
Just for reference, I'm agnostic. My answer to "Is there a god or gods?" is usually "I don't know". Defined gods are totally fake and can be traced back to sun worshipping though (including yours). Atleast you can see and interact with the sun so it makes a lot more sense than all these emotional and jealous gods.
Even so, he still would not be worthy of my worship because he is obviously evil.was your response to Jehovah God(Contradicting again). You went as far as to say you'd choose the latter than to serve Him.
Considering your god is willingly genocidal, I think I have a better hand here.(Far from being Agnostic)
If you refuse to question the contradictions, you're a drone to a belief system. You think you have something even though it's logically impossible to have with your beliefs.
Ok so now you're an agnostic, and your answer to is there a God is usually I don't know. Yet you lean more towards being a Jain which denies the existence of God (contradicting). Then again you relate to the sun because you can see it (physical proof.) yet you said if you had physical proof
was your response to Jehovah God(Contradicting again). You went as far as to say you'd choose the latter than to serve Him
(Far from being Agnostic)
Fal you're not after biblical answers or explanations as I shared before but your purpose is to get others to rely on fact instead of FAITH
He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.
To your first point I would agree completely and I would also point out that is also a true description of God. His judgement is only whether or not you violated the rules he set before you,
much like a referee would judge a rule violation on a football field. Is the referee unkind for not considering that the players intention wasn't to perform "pass interference"? Should he let it slide if the offending player seems sorry for his foul?
If God were to physically reveal himself in such a way as to provide undeniable proof, then we would lose the gift of Grace and of free will. We would become like animals fixated on a spotlight. Our actions would be as slaves or coerced subjects and not willing servants. We would lose 'Faith' because we would now 'Know' the truth.
I see many people criticize the bible because it was written by man yet they then grant complete trust in men being able to appropriately transcribe Hebrew to Greek to English for instance.
It would make complete sense for a god to come down and explain how it works-- a loving deity (or parent) would do this. Saying blind faith is the answer is a major cop-out here and can lead to any impossible and irrational thought being taken as truth. THAT is what leads to slavery. Knowledge does not.
On that note, I'd like to quote Falcon9 from another post-
It appears that they are directly implying that the human writers who contributed to the various biblical passages were 'inspired' to mistranslate them in some poorly conceived disinformation campaign designed to get those lacking critical thinking skills to surrender their 'souls' to some xtian daemon known as "god"
The Word did come down and explain how it works and was crucified for it.
It is when they are apart and the child does right that the parent is pleased and develops trust. If you sealed your child in a room and he only did what you allowed how pleased could you be?
Simply obeying the lord does not necessitate a reward, and good works cannot save you.
It isn't quite as sinister as put forth here. It also isn't as if they were intentionally mistranslated, as words change meaning over times and what could mean one thing then means another thing now -- but surely you know this. For some the words are enough either way, but for others (who were given more), more is needed and yet even with their self proclaimed superior skills and insight they refuse to take the simple steps necessary to find the truth.
Here's the thing though- one can interact with the parent in this example. There is obvious proof of the parents existence. Your example does not work unless you introduce an untestable element. The example would make more sense if the child did the right thing because he says the 'friendly' invisible genocidal monster in his closet taught him to do nice things. Still, I don't understand why one would want to develop a relationship with an abusive deity. How can you say you have a choice or free will when it's either obey him or suffer eternally? That's not a choice. That's coercion. "Make him an offer he can't refuse!"
Considering your posts are a bit more intelligent than the avg. christian on this forum, I'm sure you've heard the Hitler problem with this belief. I'll make it short to save time-
Hitler = Murdered millions of Jews + Final moments of life he is at peace + asks for forgiveness + praises god through faith = SAVED!
Jew = Led selfless life + finds he has no religious faith + murdered horribly in a gas chamber = HELL!
Do you believe it works like this?
The simple steps that are necessary to find truth lie outside of the bible (or any religious doctrine). Educating and finding where these stories came from is very simple and it does not take much to realize that they're just myths.
It isn't a choice of obey him or suffer eternally, you are quite mistaken there.
Could Hitler have been saved? Yes,
Did the Jewish people burned in the gas chambers not go to heaven? I don't know.
I 'want' to believe a path of salvation was available to them but I have nothing supporting that desire.
My point was that you put forth many arguments against the bible and use analogies of the bible that are fallacious because of your confused understanding. Yet you posted a quote referencing critical thinking skills yet you fully fail to use the same skills to realize that your assumptions are false. You try to get me to defend a position I don't believe and one that is easily dismissed with a little 'critical thinking' and investigation.
People tend to think people simply "burn in Hell" at the same rate or level.But again,God is always just and merciful
The fact is ultimately God gives us what we want.He ratifies whatever choice we make here and now,either to accept & embrace Him,or to shun and distance ourselves from Him.God will not force us into a relationship with His Son.He gave us free will to choose-even if it's the wrong choice!
And I'm sure I sound like a broken record,but it's not a choice based on blind faith.The Bible has valid historic,scientific and archaeological evidence. The problem is if you've already made up your mind to reject those proofs,there's little point in trying to convince you.The choice has been made.
To not insult the intelligence of "others" this thread is not directed to those that have an issue with the Bible
This thread is for those who Enjoy reading the bible.
So I guess you're gonna tell me a just and merciful society doesn't have prisons to punish law breakers?
Doesn't the fact that He's All Knowing give Him a bit more perspective on dealing out punishments
The fact that He gives us free will shows that we're not playing with a stacked deck,Doesn't it?
I'm sure I don't have to,as I'm aware you've already got several Christian research facts memorised and readily dismiss them
It's not up to me to convince you,anymore than you can convince me that the "Big Bang" is any more than a dreamed up theory.
How so? I fail to see any answers within the example. Remember-- your god is all-knowing and omnipotent. Apply that attribute to the parent. Unless the parent is capable of error, the example is not holding up.
You really don't see any problem with what you're saying here? You don't question your own gods moral sense? You're saying Hitler can be saved, but you don't know if Jews can be. That's just...insanely evil.
So it's possible that you willingly follow an evil god.
How are my assumptions false? Just because you don;t know the answers and therefore they just are?
Christians don't have free will because you have a god that knows everything already. It's a contradiction and your free will is an illusion because of that. When all things are inevitable, it's fatalism. Christians are inherently fatalists due to your gods power.
This comes as an attack against the world idea of "Free Will" (desire to appease the flesh (sin), and do all that which is against the will of God)
A young boy and his friend were bike riding on the sidewalk; the young boy eventually stopped and said, "I can't go beyond this point. I can ride between point A and point B only." Another replied; I forgot, "his mom said not to go beyond this point," so they turned back and rode with him. during this time they had no adult supervision yet this child realized that as long as he adheres to his mother's rules he'll be able to ride as much as he wants/desire/will to his heart's content (Free Will.)
to put God above self, and choose to depart from a life of sin that would give us a destination called HELL? Rhetorically speaking are we powerless, or is this our personal choice to do so?
I'm just bringing up faults in rudimentary logicI entirely agree with the bringing up faults but the logic part, smh no.
to put God above self, and choose to depart from a life of sin that would give us a destination called HELL? Rhetorically speaking are we powerless, or is this our personal choice to do so?
So you're scared to answer an obvious contradiction in fear of hell? Enjoy the cage.
Rules are rules, your parents had them, the country of which you reside has them (civil government), whether you accept their rule or not you have to work out your definition of "free will" around them.
You have a choice to utilize that will to obey God as you've obeyed man by following their law/government or submit to the penalty of not doing so.
Like I said before your issue is not with God our His followers, it's with your twisted logic, that evolves from disloyalty (refusal to follow God's precepts.) I say this because you're not without understanding of it.
No child of God fears hell, why should we?
Seems like your definition of free will is defined as enslavement and far from the actual definition of it.
Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Historically, the constraint of dominant concern has been the metaphysical constraint of determinism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/free+will
"Twisted" logic? It's a very simple question that you keep on trying to push aside and fill the space with something different or just making the question look evil.
How about knowing of the eternal torment that people you have relationships with who aren't children of your god? If that does not bring you fear and disgust, then that is truly scary. I would never wish harm to you. The mere thought of someone being tortured forever would be horrific and would forever plague my memory. Why would you even think this is going to happen to me? You've already admitted hell exists and that people go there, so if it were real, obviously you put yourself in a golden cage and you obviously don't care enough to see the problem with believing in a hell and a god who allows for it. That's a pretty sickening display of naivety. "Hey, friend! I'm going to heaven! Are you? Nope? Ah well! You were warned! La la la la laaaa!"
Again this proves your twisted logic to be a misrepresentation of Christians.
Enslavement/Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and are forced to work.[
Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation.
Everyone, Christians as well as yourself makes choices though they may differ, (but did you notice your definition reads "apparent ability") doesn't apparent mean Appearing as such but not necessarily so?
Like I said before that free will resides between rules/governments/laws that are already in place.
throughout history and now, just as God's precepts does not fluctuate
It's not the question but the motive behind the question, to blatantly coerce anyone to step outside of, or to violate the law of man or of God is evil yes.
A police officer once caught his friend and as well as others in a criminal act, his friend asked, "are you really going to arrest me I thought we were friends," the officer replied," I'm an officer first and a friend second." Upholding the law is not evil but breaking it is.
Your aim is to cause people to be rebellious but 1 Samuel 15:23a reveals what the nature of that is.
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee
You obviously have not read (or most likely ignored) my first post in this thread.Check out the second paragraph.
This is another example of your double-speak with attempt to cloud the issue.The fact that God KNOWS how events play out,is not in indication that all things are inevitable.He gives us free will to make the choice ourselves.
That's why it's a waste of my time to post facts to which you've already made up your mind about.Your bias has determined your mind set.There's no point debating facts with an old school obscurantist.
I've done my share of research as well.Your attempt to prove God does not exist by throwing out "my facts are better than yours" are again a waste of time
This is another example of your double-speak with attempt to cloud the issue.The fact that God KNOWS how events play out,is not in indication that all things are inevitable.He gives us free will to make the choice ourselves.
"Because those 'facts' are constantly being proven to be false information and blatant lies because of what reality shows."
That's why it's a waste of my time to post facts to which you've already made up your mind about.Your bias has determined your mind set.There's no point debating facts with an old school obscurantist.
Everyone, Christians as well as yourself makes choices though they may differ, (but did you notice your definition reads "apparent ability") doesn't apparent mean Appearing as such but not necessarily so?
Like I said before that free will resides between rules/governments/laws that are already in place throughout history and now, just as God's precepts does not fluctuate
Yes, but rules/govt's/laws have the ability to change and do so all the time-- all they need is a push. People follow them because they usually make sense during that course in time. Change is the key word here-- your beliefs have no power to change since it would go against your god's will and would crumble the foundation of your beliefs. It's a one-way path with steel hallways and therefore comparing them is not a logical example.
Like I said before your Moral if to deceive, your Motive is clearly to instigate rebellion against God and not to come to a conclusion in terms of God's existence, free will, Judgment or any such discussions. So many people have posted efficient explanations in terms of these topic but your Bias preconceptions, time after time again has proven that your mindset will never give room to anything but "your ideals."
Thus creating a one way path filled with insolence and complete/utter refusal to recognize or God.
All this as well as your claims of possessing a more reasonable intellect that God himself, desiring to change His rule to adjust to your sinful state,
after all, you believe your loving god allowed me to think this way, didn't he?
To question things and find unexplained holes? And show me why I'm wrong for doing so without falling into 2D/Orwellian thinking.
I did not resort to being too sophisticate or Scholastic, but to give you very simple answers that even a 5yr old could understand, but that would not suffice, because you're already bent on your own preconceptions. I'll give you one final answer "Mr victim." I've given you biblical and I'll give you factual.
did not resort to being too sophisticate or Scholastic, but to give you very simple answers that even a 5yr old could understand, but that would not suffice, because you're already bent on your own preconceptions.
God (Jehovah) -The supernatural being conceived as the "perfect" and omnipotent and omniscient "originator" and "ruler of the universe;" the object of worship.
To question and find unexplained holes in God's rules (read the definition rule again) is to say you have the wisdom to correct God (read the definition of God again)
Yet again after answering your question, you've gone right back to the beginning and back again to the answered question.
Since we're not getting anywhere here's a movie that'll help.
While I doubt you'll refuse the opportunity to question the results of your answers, even more. I still desire that your soul makes it into Heaven so Check out this movie.
[quote-by other dude]You obviously have not read (or most likely ignored) my first post in this thread.Check out the second paragraph.
Where does it say there are specific 'levels' of punishment and reward? I don't remember and I can't find anything based upon scripture.
http://www.gotquestions.org/levels-heaven.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/Divine-Comedy-Dantes-Inferno.html
This is another example of your double-speak with attempt to cloud the issue.The fact that God KNOWS how events play out,is not in indication that all things are inevitable.He gives us free will to make the choice ourselves.
Explain how knowing things before they happen constitutes for free will-- more simply explain how if choices are already known beforehand, how are they free choices?
That's why it's a waste of my time to post facts to which you've already made up your mind about.Your bias has determined your mind set.There's no point debating facts with an old school obscurantist.
I've done my share of research as well.Your attempt to prove God does not exist by throwing out "my facts are better than yours" are again a waste of time
Well, he did remark that he was "sure the suffering of someone who committed "minor" infractions will be nothing when compared to the suffering of someone like Hitler ..." so, since he's sure, it must be true
For some as yet inexplicable reason, those folks seem to be contending, via implication, that their "god" knows what choices are going to be made in advance and 'lets' people make them anyway, thus presenting the illusion of free will without the actual substance of it.
I've noticed a few instances of that stance too. The humurously-ironic part is that those folks often accuse others of being "obscurantist", "pseudo-intellectual", rhetorical and any number of ad hominem to avoid countering valid opposing arguments. As you've mentioned, this is D+D, (which stands for debate + discuss, not derrogatory + dementia).
I'd used a theoretical invisible unicorn in your garage as an analogy of the futility of attempting to prove or disprove a negative assertion however, it may have been too subtle since they keep missing the inference. Maybe it should be demanded that they prove Santa, the tooth fairy, elves, an enroute invading alien fleet, Morrigan, Anubis, Thor or Apollo _doesn't_ exist?
"Listen" to both of you. This whole post is nothing but a cut down of the "religious crowd," "derrogatory + dementia," "I've noticed they get offended since they keep this idea of a 'loving' deity so close to their hearts," etc. If it was truly debate and discuss, then the Christian's arguments would be deemed just as worthy as your arguments. I don't consider that d & d with what you are consistently purporting Christians to be doing.QuoteWell, he did remark that he was "sure the suffering of someone who committed "minor" infractions will be nothing when compared to the suffering of someone like Hitler ..." so, since he's sure, it must be true
I think JediJohnnie is actually a Sith Lord since he's definitely talking like one.QuoteFor some as yet inexplicable reason, those folks seem to be contending, via implication, that their "god" knows what choices are going to be made in advance and 'lets' people make them anyway, thus presenting the illusion of free will without the actual substance of it.
That's what I've been trying to present to them but they keep passing over it with faulty examples and then saying I don't understand it when I point out the basic faults. :dontknow:QuoteI've noticed a few instances of that stance too. The humurously-ironic part is that those folks often accuse others of being "obscurantist", "pseudo-intellectual", rhetorical and any number of ad hominem to avoid countering valid opposing arguments. As you've mentioned, this is D+D, (which stands for debate + discuss, not derrogatory + dementia).
Well said. This pretty much sums up the religious crowd on the forum-- I've seen it countless times.QuoteI'd used a theoretical invisible unicorn in your garage as an analogy of the futility of attempting to prove or disprove a negative assertion however, it may have been too subtle since they keep missing the inference. Maybe it should be demanded that they prove Santa, the tooth fairy, elves, an enroute invading alien fleet, Morrigan, Anubis, Thor or Apollo _doesn't_ exist?
It is a great example to compare, but with all the others (Santa, Elves, Alien fleet) I've noticed they get offended since they keep this idea of a 'loving' deity so close to their hearts. Even though those examples are valid, I just go with the monster in my garage since it's just poking fun at myself. Unless the opposing argument is full of personal attacks (and believe me-- you WILL see a lot of menacingly evil ones shot your way if you stay here in d+d long enough), I usually avoid using those examples.
Listen" to both of you. This whole post is nothing but a cut down of the "religious crowd," "derrogatory + dementia," "I've noticed they get offended since they keep this idea of a 'loving' deity so close to their hearts," etc. If it was truly debate and discuss, then the Christian's arguments would be deemed just as worthy as your arguments. I don't consider that d & d with what you are consistently purporting Christians to be doing.
There can't be a debate either when the opposing side is constantly saying:QuoteListen" to both of you. This whole post is nothing but a cut down of the "religious crowd," "derrogatory + dementia," "I've noticed they get offended since they keep this idea of a 'loving' deity so close to their hearts," etc. If it was truly debate and discuss, then the Christian's arguments would be deemed just as worthy as your arguments. I don't consider that d & d with what you are consistently purporting Christians to be doing.
On the contrary, it's what the Christians have been doing all this time. The problem with the Christian's arguments is that they really don't have an argument in the first place due to the lack of proofs (or what they deem proofs are ridiculous and ignorant of how things actually are). When put up against a contradiction/problem, most of the time they hover right over it and when we call them on it, they say that the opposition does not understand whatever is being discussed which is just a childish fallacy. This has been demonstrated countless times-- even in this thread alone! When put up against a contradiction/problem, most of the time they hover right over it and when we call them on it, they say that the opposition does not understand whatever is being discussed which is just a childish fallacy.(Though the Sith Lord comment is just a joke though-- I was just being an *bleep*)
QuoteListen" to both of you. This whole post is nothing but a cut down of the "religious crowd," "derrogatory + dementia," "I've noticed they get offended since they keep this idea of a 'loving' deity so close to their hearts," etc. If it was truly debate and discuss, then the Christian's arguments would be deemed just as worthy as your arguments. I don't consider that d & d with what you are consistently purporting Christians to be doing.On the contrary, it's what the Christians have been doing all this time. The problem with the Christian's arguments is that they really don't have an argument in the first place due to the lack of proofs (or what they deem proofs are ridiculous and ignorant of how things actually are). When put up against a contradiction/problem, most of the time they hover right over it and when we call them on it, they say that the opposition does not understand whatever is being discussed which is just a childish fallacy. This has been demonstrated countless times-- even in this thread alone! When put up against a contradiction/problem, most of the time they hover right over it and when we call them on it, they say that the opposition does not understand whatever is being discussed which is just a childish fallacy.(Though the Sith Lord comment is just a joke though-- I was just being an *bleep*)There can't be a debate either when the opposing side is constantly saying:
1. "The problem with the Christian's arguments is that they really don't have an argument in the first place due to the lack of proofs (or what they deem proofs are ridiculous and ignorant of how things actually are)."
So, you object to being shown precisely how the xtian "argments" are lacking the essential forms of a debate, (which is _not_ merely an exchange of superficial 'opinions'; a debate is nominally intended to resent a premise, (and opposing argument's premise), supportive evidence/reasoning for the premise presented and offer reasoned conclusion deduced from valid arguments. If one 'side' of a debate instead insists upon attempting to barricade themselves behind "faith" & "belief" so that they don't 'have to' present any evidence for what amounts to an opinion wihout foundational basis, (that would be the 'religious' barricade), then it becomes less of a debate and more of a discussion. Such discussions often stall due to the disparity between basleess opinions and a more reasoned argument which is not based upon "faith".2. "When put up against a contradiction/problem, most of the time they hover right over it and when we call them on it, they say that the opposition does not understand whatever is being discussed which is just a childish fallacy."3. "When put up against a contradiction/problem, most of the time they hover right over it and when we call them on it, they say that the opposition does not understand whatever is being discussed which is just a childish fallacy."
#2 & #3 are duplicated quotes however, the following response does not directly address these contentions:The point is, is that this particular debate, or any debate between Christians and athiests, involves a much deeper underlying problem than a surfacy debate can agree to disagree on. There are deeper issues, as you know, and no matter how much debating goes on, there will never be an ending to it. But it's challenging to take part in a debate and give my side the best I can with the beliefs I have. I still believe in the Lord, no matter what you or any other nonbeliever or athiest says, and it doesn't matter to me what you think.
If you're going to raise vague and unspecified "underlying issues", ((as opposed to avoiding addressing the specific which _were_ raised above), then you'll have to be more specific and less vague about them.It's important to me where my faith lies and I am set in "concrete" with my decision.
This last quoted senence is the most revealing of all so far; it indicates no possibility that reason can pursuade against a choice of "faith" when those are the options available. I submit this stance to "Abrupt" as evidence presented by a professed "christian" of making an irrational choice stemming from an irrational, ("faith"), basis.
It's not irrational to me. If it makes you feel better to call it that, go right ahead. I could say the same about what your claims, but you are entitled to what you think. I'm entitled to what I think or believe.
Well, then, lets put things in reverse. Can you explain how an impersonal, purposeless, meaningless, and amoral universe accidentally created beings (us) who are full of personality and obsessed with purpose, meaning, and morals? In other words, how could nothing create our world unless there was something exists?
What I'm saying is that an effect has to resemble its cause. Are you disagreeing with this?
I think we both agree that the world had a beginning. In order to have a beginning, there has to be a cause. But what I'm understanding you to say is that nothing produced everything, that non-life produces life, that chaos produces information. Not to mention that would mean you are inferring that non-reason produces reason, and unconsciousness produces consciousness.
Me? I believe that mind created these things I listed. In order for there to be life, reason, consciousness, personality, morals, etc., there has to be something or someone that/who already exists to create these things. So can you honestly say that nothing produced everything, including the things listed? Nothing had no mind - there had to be something or someone that/who had a higher mind when it/he/she created.
Jeremiah 32:17 "Ah, Lord GOD, behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm and there is nothing too hard for."
Psalm 147:4-5 "He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord and of great power his understanding is. "
Colossians 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
I think we both agree that the world had a beginning.
But what I'm understanding you to say is that nothing produced everything ...
that non-life produces life
that chaos produces information.
Not to mention that would mean you are inferring that non-reason produces reason, and unconsciousness produces consciousness.
Me? I believe that mind created these things I listed. In order for there to be life, reason, consciousness, personality, morals, etc., there has to be something or someone that/who already exists to create these things. So can you honestly say that nothing produced everything, including the things listed? Nothing had no mind - there had to be something or someone that/who had a higher mind when it/he/she created.
Jeremiah 32:17 "Ah, Lord GOD, behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm and there is nothing too hard for."
Psalm 147:4-5 "He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord and of great power his understanding is. "
Colossians 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Falcon-- that was a great read, but I think the majority (if not all) of the christians on this forum who read it will completely misunderstand since they tend to fall for and use the simplest of Watchmaker analogies.
There is scientific and philosophical evidence that moves more away from the idea of an eternal universal and more toward an eternal Creator.
There are several scientists, from their scientific view, that have at least admitted that the universe had a beginning.
**One fact of that is shown by evidence from the Second Law of Thermodynamics. In the early 1900s the Big Bang discovered the radiation echo. That proved that the universe is expanding, which in turn proves that there had to be a beginning. The Hubble Telescope confirmed this, as well. Not only that, it was shown that the universe wasn't just expanding into space, but space, itself, is also expanding.
**The second law also states that the universe is running out of usable energy (aging.) That can only happen if something was energized, or created, from the beginning. Example: We look in a mirror and see how we are aging - we were started at some point.
**Going back to the radiation echo (discovered by Bell Labs scientists in 1965,) the "heat afterglow" showed that the universe exploded, which is contrary to an eternal universe being in a steady and eternal state.
**Considering the Big Bang theory is true, then there would have been temperature reactions, "ripples or galaxy seeds," happening in space. Following that, the enabled matter would then have to collect into and form galaxies. So, in 1989, the COBE (Cosmic Background Explorer) was launched to check this out. Findings were released in 1992. COBE found "Perfect/precise ripples" that "enable galaxies to form."
**Albert Einstein is known for his theory of relativity, which says "the universe had a beginning and was not eternal."
He was at first a pantheist and since he, himself, did not like the results of his own theory, he added a "fudge factor" into his theory, which allowed for an eternal universe. However, that factor required a division by zero in his calculations, which was an error. He only admitted this error when other mathematicians discovered the error. He also acknowledged the universe expanding just as his theory predicted. Afterwards he was quoted as saying, he wanted "to know how God created the world."
So now I go back to effect having to resemble its cause. In other words, it is not possible for something to exist and possess something with out having resemblances to an originator of the same.
Now, as far as using Bible verses, since I believe God's Word is truth and evidence of God, then you couldn't disagree with me using them to back up points being made. It doesn't really matter which version, although I do prefer KJV because of the history behind it. I also use, on occasion, the 1599 Geneva Bible, as well as other versions that help with study, clarity, and understanding.
I apologize for not responding to you, yet. Wednesdays are my long days with too many irons in the fire, so-to-speak. I will be able to get back in here hopefully Thursday. Hope your week is going well! :)
posted Sept.28, 2011:
I apologize for not responding to you, yet. Wednesdays are my long days with too many irons in the fire, so-to-speak. I will be able to get back in here hopefully Thursday.
Sept.28, 2011:
I apologize for not responding to you, yet. Wednesdays are my long days with too many irons in the fire, so-to-speak. I will be able to get back in here hopefully Thursday. Hope your week is going well! :)
I'm coming. I had asthma problems from my flu shot and just haven't had the strength to do anything other than simple things on here toward my earnings. Then my computer went down and I just got it back up tonight. You can only do so much through the cell phone!Sept.28, 2011:
I apologize for not responding to you, yet. Wednesdays are my long days with too many irons in the fire, so-to-speak. I will be able to get back in here hopefully Thursday. Hope your week is going well! :)
*crickets chirping*
I'm coming. I had asthma problems from my flu shot and just haven't had the strength to do anything other than simple things on here toward my earnings. Then my computer went down and I just got it back up tonight. You can only do so much through the cell phone!
To not insult the intelligence of "others" this thread is not directed to those that have an issue with the BibleI've tried reading the bible but I have trouble getting into it. So I read the Bible for Dummies, Catholicism for Dummies, extra...they really help me understand what the bible says and mean. Last one I just read told you about gnosticism. Very interesting.
This thread is for those who Enjoy reading the bible.
I rather the KJV and find no fault with the NIV for reference.