FC Community
Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: ULuvCeCe on February 01, 2012, 08:18:42 pm
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray. :wave:
-
I have to admit, I don't always exactly say my regular daily prayer and include the one I promised. But at the time I tell the person I will, I sometimes do a quick silent short one right then, Something like, "Lord, bless and keep this child". Since God listens to us always, I think that counts. It's a good habit to get into, in case in you busy life you later forget. :heart:
-
Since God listens to us always ...
The thread title mentions honesty; this comment reflects a forlorn hope, rather than that. This isn't an opinion concerning 'prayer' per se but, an observation of the complete lack of evidence for the claim that an unspecified 'deity' listens to them.
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
No, people who say this don't do it; it's just something they say to put the absolute least effort forward to pretend they're doing something about a situation. Or they say it to be a self-righteous *bleep* to people they "pity" (like atheists).
While we're being "honest" about prayer -- you can get the same results praying to a jug of milk.
-
I'm not a big prayer, but if I tell someone "Ill pray for you" then I'll do it.
-
Yeah, Its total crap man, they will forget 5 minutes later-lol!!! :angel12:
-
It depends on the person who offers to pray. Some people will truly and sincerely pray for you and some won't. I say why offer a pray when you know you are not going to do it?
-
Or they say it to be a self-righteous *bleep* to people they "pity" (like atheists).
This occurs often enough to warrant a counter-response like, "may you be mentioned in dispatches to satan".
While we're being "honest" about prayer -- you can get the same results praying to a jug of milk.
Exactly, and this would be just as an efficient use of time spent.
-
Or they say it to be a self-righteous *bleep* to people they "pity" (like atheists).
This occurs often enough to warrant a counter-response like, "may you be mentioned in dispatches to satan".
lol I love it! :thumbsup:
-
I like to think it works. I pray to god and I think it is a give/take situation. He gives me certain advantages in life for occasions. Then he makes my life hell lol.
-
I like to think it works.
And yet, such an opinion does not constitute evidence that it "works", (e.g., provides attributible results).
I pray to god and I think it is a give/take situation. He gives me certain advantages in life for occasions. Then he makes my life hell lol.
Making unsubstantiated attributions of phenomenon to supernatural causes promotes dishonesty in the form of 'wishful thinking'. Although one may hold such empty opinions internally, as soon as they are made external, (posted as debatable opinions), they may be challenged. Whether those who hold to empty 'faith' are up to such challenges is a matter of individual self-honesty.
-
When I say I will pray for someone, then I will pray for them. I am strong about keeping to what I say (one reason I don't threaten (often) people is because I force myself to keep my word). Everyone that knows me well would likely agree that "If he says he is going to do something then he is going to do it". I also don't make a habit of promising on something I am unsure of being capable of doing and if forced into a yes or no answer on such a choice I will almost always choose no.
-
My cell phone has a place for reminders, I use it to keep my prayer list. I don't tell someone that I am going to pray for them and then not do it, but I do know that there are people for which "You're in my prayers" has become just something to say because they think it's "sympathetic" or makes others feel better. My prayer list includes many that I have never told I pray for because a little prayer isn't going to hurt them none and since they don't believe in God anyway--- there's no need for them to know. It's been reward enough when some of these people have found me years later and let me know that they are into God now and have changed their way of living. Prayer changes things, even people that thought they'd never change.
As for the above quote "This occurs often enough to warrant a counter-response like, "may you be mentioned in dispatches to satan"--- Why waste time "dispatching" to second best? Satan can't touch what belongs to God.
-
As for the above quote "This occurs often enough to warrant a counter-response like, "may you be mentioned in dispatches to satan"--- Why waste time "dispatching" to second best? Satan can't touch what belongs to God.
It's meant to be a joke, as non-Christians are often accused of being in cahoots with the devil.
As for your statement that Satan can't touch what belongs to god, this is obviously untrue based on your beliefs, because you claim people belong to god, but also blame the devil of messing with said people anytime something goes wrong. ???
-
Totally believe in prayers. God may not always seem to give what everyone wants but he has his reasons.
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray.
So let's be honest about praying, shall we? If you truly wish and care for the person/people to overcome whatever struggle they're in, you will help them directly. Prayer is not a form of helping someone since it's on par with saying "I will cross my fingers for you." If you can't show the results of your efforts, you didn't do anything to help these people. I forget who said this quote-
"A thousand men can pray for a problem to be solved, but it only takes one to stand up, get to work, and solve it."
Effort > No Effort
Totally believe in prayers. God may not always seem to give what everyone wants but he has his reasons.
(http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/meh.ro5565.jpg)
-
As for your statement that Satan can't touch what belongs to god, this is obviously untrue based on your beliefs, because you claim people belong to god, but also blame the devil of messing with said people anytime something goes wrong. ???
I would agree that there are Christians that blame the devil for messing with people everytime something goes wrong. There are some Christians that like to blame satan for everything that they can't get right themselves in their life. Those don't realize they are their own worst enemy, not satan. There are also some Christians that give satan "an invitation" into their lives many times whether they are aware of it or not...so that could be why the devil gets blamed for messing with said people. In the Bible, God gave satan permission to "test" Job and satan did his best, but satan didn't beat Job. One could say that satan couldn't "touch" Job even though he tried..
I can't speak for all Christians, I can only speak for this one. I don't believe in giving satan any credit for anything in my life. He has no invitation in my life. He can test all he wants, he should know by now that he "can't touch THIS". ;)
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray.
So let's be honest about praying, shall we? If you truly wish and care for the person/people to overcome whatever struggle they're in, you will help them directly. Prayer is not a form of helping someone since it's on par with saying "I will cross my fingers for you." If you can't show the results of your efforts, you didn't do anything to help these people. I forget who said this quote-
"A thousand men can pray for a problem to be solved, but it only takes one to stand up, get to work, and solve it."
Effort > No Effort
After those efforts and struggles have failed, then what? Call it a day?
Prayer for others is taking what is out of our hands and placing it into God's hands.
"A thousand men can try to solve a problem, but it only takes a one Christian to pray and one God to solve it".
-
Believe...........don't believe it is up to you. But it is funny when the chips are really down, how many "non-believers" turn to God and prayer. When I tell someone I will pray for them I do right then and then again at other times when I think about it. I don't think prayers have to be at a set time or set place.......anytime, anywhere is ok. That's my 2 cents for the day.
-
After those efforts and struggles have failed, then what? Call it a day?
Another anonymous quote that's a bit more famous-
"*bleep* happens!"
Prayer for others is taking what is out of our hands and placing it into God's hands.
This is the same logic that christian zealots tend to use in hospitals- if an injured person might not make it, it's in god's hands. If the person lives, it's a miracle of god! If the person dies,
it was all in god's plan. The christians do nothing but 'spritually cross their fingers'. Meanwhile the doctor is working his *bleep* off to save the person knowing that the person would have been dead no matter what if it wasn't for the education and technology he knows how to apply. If christians believe god "has a plan", then praying is pointless since one is pretty much asking him to change his plan with a telepathic plea that will swing something in their favor.
A thousand men can try to solve a problem, but it only takes a few Christians to pray and one God to solve it".
I cannot think of one time in recorded history where this actually applied and worked.
Believe...........don't believe it is up to you. But it is funny when the chips are really down, how many "non-believers" turn to God and prayer.
Lemme rephrase here-- You can truly tell a coward from a nonbeliever when the chips are down. To quote the late Carl Sagan's wife-
"When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me—it still sometimes happens—and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions."
-
Another anonymous quote that's a bit more famous-
"*bleep* happens!"
Some "call it a day" and some pray. :angel11:
This is the same logic that christian zealots tend to use in hospitals- if an injured person might not make it, it's in god's hands. If the person lives, it's a miracle of god! If the person dies,
it was all in god's plan. The christians do nothing but 'spritually cross their fingers'. Meanwhile the doctor is working his *bleep* off to save the person knowing that the person would have been dead no matter what if it wasn't for the education and technology he knows how to apply. If christians believe god "has a plan", then praying is pointless since one is pretty much asking him to change his plan with a telepathic plea that will swing something in their favor.
My logic doesn't swing in favor of the christian zealots but rather is more in line with the logic of the Christian doctors'.
I cannot think of one time in recorded history where this actually applied and worked.
Your Daily Quotation from FC's daily paid e-mail:
"We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are."
-- Anais Nin
*** No doctor required, finding a cure for spiritual blindness is as easy as finding God.
"Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions."
This man and many more others face their death with unflagging courage, blind to what eternity holds for them. They may think they never sought refuge in "illusions", but if they surely never sought refuge in God then what they settled for actually was an "illusion". It's the "illusion" that satan sells people that makes them feel content on the path they're walking through life without God. The "illusion" that one can live their life and do as they please because "there is no God" and surely no hell. There's an end coming to that "illusion", it's probably going to leave many feeling "scammed". Nothing good ever comes from believing a master of deception.
-
Some "call it a day" and some pray.
Fair enough I suppose. If taking a break or praying to give the individual more willpower gives one strength to continue, both can be seen as helpful. Only to the individuals own willpower though- not to the actual struggle they're working on.
My logic doesn't swing in favor of the christian zealots but rather is more in line with the logic of the Christian doctors'.
Faith healers? Because doctors are doctors regardless of belief-- they know much more than the religious person about how human anatomy works, and therefore must be grounded in reality to move forward with the process of actually helping the injured person. Praying won't heal a person of physical ailments-- believing in such things is frighteningly dangerous as they are the works of cons who promote witchcraft. Though if you meant differently, it's just another fallacious tactic used by religious zealots- put god ontop of every topic showing the reality of the issue (similar to the whole "So evolution has been proven? If that's so, my god did it!" fallacy).
No doctor required, finding a cure for spiritual blindness is as easy as finding God.
Such claims are rather contradictory to themselves. If freethinkers or believers of other religions are blind of something, you would need to provide proof of your 'spiritual realms' existence. If you cannot, then you are blind to the millions of other imaginary realms believed by others that lie in the same imaginary dimension as your own. Freethinkers see no importance in these realms due to lack of proof, they being able to be traced back to earlier primitive beliefs which no one believes in anymore, or the defined individuals of these realms that parallel current societies traits.
This man and many more others face their death with unflagging courage, blind to what eternity holds for them. They may think they never sought refuge in "illusions", but if they surely never sought refuge in God then what they settled for actually was an "illusion". It's the "illusion" that satan sells people that makes them feel content on the path they're walking through life without God. The "illusion" that one can live their life and do as they please because "there is no God" and surely no hell. There's an end coming to that "illusion", it's probably going to leave many feeling "scammed". Nothing good ever comes from believing a master of deception.
So anyone who does not believe the way you do is being fooled by something you can prove exists, right? If you cannot, you have fallen into the same trap because you're being tricked by Loki.
-
Yes, I have a list because I get so many people asking me for prayer and I dedicate a time for prayer for them. The bed time prayer is for my family and talking with God.
-
As for the above quote "This occurs often enough to warrant a counter-response like, "may you be mentioned in dispatches to satan"--- Why waste time "dispatching" to second best? Satan can't touch what belongs to God.
It's meant to be a joke, as non-Christians are often accused of being in cahoots with the devil.
Yes, that was one aspect of the sardonic response; the other aspect being the juxtapositioning of "dispatches" to "prayers" as being equally ineffective.
As for your statement that Satan can't touch what belongs to god, this is obviously untrue based on your beliefs, because you claim people belong to god, but also blame the devil of messing with said people anytime something goes wrong. ???
It is also said that "the devil is in the details", (an observation oft-misunderstood by religious zealots who tend to avoid any detailed discussion of their belief claims for fear of the "devil").
-
They may think they never sought refuge in "illusions", but if they surely never sought refuge in God then what they settled for actually was an "illusion". It's the "illusion" that satan sells people that makes them feel content on the path they're walking through life without God.
An even more insidious illusion lies within the self-delusions of blind faith, (especially in some vaguely indeterminate "god"). Throughout history, such self-righteous delusions have been more detrimental than any illusions of false comfort which is imagined to be obtained.
The "illusion" that one can live their life and do as they please because "there is no God" and surely no hell. There's an end coming to that "illusion", it's probably going to leave many feeling "scammed". Nothing good ever comes from believing a master of deception.
Conversely, (and much more revealing as to the nature of the religious illusions propagated by such unsubstantiated deceptions), the concept that someone else's religious delusions somehow apply to others that don't share them displays an enormous degree of hubris. The irony that such religious beliefs are 'deceptive scams', (due to the lack of any substantive basis whatsoever), somehow escapes 'believers'.
-
Falconer02:
If you're more comfortable being at the "end of the ropes" and calling it quits because "all human resources" have failed, then that's your option. When that happens to me, I CAN'T call it quits because I know my God is ALWAYS there for me. That's my option. I can respect you enough to let you live with your choices. I would hope for the same from you.
I'm not sure why you always jump right to "faith healers" when the topic of medicine comes up. There ARE doctors that attend medical school that are Christians (along with most every other profession!). They combine what they've learned about medicine along with prayer. They more than likely are at work in EVERY hospital. They don't do the "faith healing", they aren't called for that. Their calling is to work in the hospital as a doctor.
Re: "spiritual blindness". If' it's a term that you find upsetting, I really apologize. I used it because I can get up in the morning, listen to the news and see how world events LINE UP with what is in my Bible. I don't have to make excuses or live in denial because there is something going on or some new finding that proves my God does not exist and is not who He says He is. To me, that is seeing life wholly. If you can say the same and be honest about it...well, I'm sorry but I don't see how you can. I've been on the path that you currently are on and I know how that feels and what it takes to "not believe in God". It's not a good path no matter how good a person is at living in denial.
I know my God exists, I have no doubts. I'm not the kind of person that goes around trying to convert everyone I meet and I regret that. I have had more than one aquaintance or friend die young and unexpectedly. Their deaths angered me because I never took a moment to tell them what I knew about God and how they needed Him., now it's forever too late for them. They probably would have rejected what I told them anyway but that wasn't my call to make. Our paths crossed and I never told them what I knew and now it's too late for them. Facloner02, our paths have "crossed", I have told you what I know. It's not yet too late for you. In my honest opinion, even though you've said you've tried church before...I think you should pray directly to God. I think you should tell Him what's been going on with you and what you would like Him to do to reach you so that you have no questions left about whether or not He exists. Why? Because time is ticking and eventually it runs out for everyone.
-
Facloner02, our paths have "crossed", I have told you what I know. It's not yet too late for you. In my honest opinion, even though you've said you've tried church before...I think you should pray directly to God.
Yeah, Falc, it's never too late to enslave your mind and life to a delusion! Just look at Kirk Cameron and Lee Strobel!!! They used to be "atheists", but now they have the privilege of riding first class on the Fantasy Train!!
In all seriousness, I find it highly condescending for someone to say "it's not too late for you". It's not too late to burn forever at the hands of your 'loving' god? Oh boy!
And no offense Sheryl, but the vast majority of agnostics/atheists have done more than "try church". Including Falc, and myself.
-
As for the above quote "This occurs often enough to warrant a counter-response like, "may you be mentioned in dispatches to satan"--- Why waste time "dispatching" to second best? Satan can't touch what belongs to God.
It's meant to be a joke, as non-Christians are often accused of being in cahoots with the devil.
As for your statement that Satan can't touch what belongs to god, this is obviously untrue based on your beliefs, because you claim people belong to god, but also blame the devil of messing with said people anytime something goes wrong. ???
They are gullible and are beyond hope. I pity them.
-
I used it (Re: "spiritual blindness") because I can get up in the morning, listen to the news and see how world events LINE UP with what is in my Bible. I don't have to make excuses or live in denial because there is something going on or some new finding that proves my God does not exist and is not who He says He is. To me, that is seeing life wholly.
Nearly any of the "world events" which have transpired since the 'bible' was cobbled together can be misconstrued as generally lining up with it, (not specifically, mind you but, in such a vague way as to falsely attribute such things to 'bibical prophesy'). Making such vague and generalized attributions constitutes making excuses and living in denial that the actual basis is 'blind faith' rather than knowledge.
If you can say the same and be honest about it...well, I'm sorry but I don't see how you can. I know how that feels and what it takes to "not believe in God". It's not a good path no matter how good a person is at living in denial.
In youu own words, ("I don't _see_ how you can"), a certain degree of blindness, and therefore denial, is directly implicated.
I know my God exists, I have no doubts.
Having blind faith is not equivalent to knowing. It's 'blind' because it not only lacks evidence but, seems to require a lack of evidence.
-
And no offense Sheryl, but the vast majority of agnostics/atheists have done more than "try church". Including Falc, and myself.
QON, what I meant to say was instead of "trying church", was actually "try God". Not all churches teach what they should, not every church path "leads to Heaven" and not every church member is going to find themselves in Heaven at the end of their life's journey.
In all seriousness, I find it highly condescending for someone to say "it's not too late for you".
I honestly didn't intend for the comment to be "condescending". I intended for the words to say exactly what they say. As long as someone is still breathing and is still in control of their thoughts then God will hear their prayers. Once that ends... so does any chance of getting things right with God.
I'm wondering, QON, would it have made you happier if I had pretended to not be a Christian in the FC forums and never had said anything about God to you? Do you value the friends that let you go on your merry way in life when you may be making a very big mistake and they know it, but they say nothing to you? I try to look out for people, try to keep them from making mistakes when I can. There isn't anyone that I would want to see miss Heaven, but it's each person's choice. Noone is going to get to blame "the devil" because the devil can only tempt and test...he can't MAKE anyone do anything. How one decides to spend eternity is every person's choice. I don't "pity" atheists, I might not totally understand them but I don't "pity" them. I would think that I should be able to "communicate" with you & Falconer02 without you guys thinking I'm being "condescending" or full of "pity" toward you...after all, it's been 2 years!! You guys should know me better than that by now!! ;)
-
If you're more comfortable being at the "end of the ropes" and calling it quits because "all human resources" have failed, then that's your option. When that happens to me, I CAN'T call it quits because I know my God is ALWAYS there for me. That's my option. I can respect you enough to let you live with your choices. I would hope for the same from you.
The problem with using the term "I know" implies that you have sustainable proof of something happening. When the term "I know" glides into the realm of defined gods, spiritual realms, etc. ones own argument implodes in on itself because of a fallacious and completely improbable foundation (not just your defined-spiritual beliefs-- everyone who openly says 'they know'). If you can share anything that can withstand elementary skepticism, go right ahead. Because if you can't, you simply don't know.
I'm not sure why you always jump right to "faith healers" when the topic of medicine comes up. There ARE doctors that attend medical school that are Christians (along with most every other profession!). They combine what they've learned about medicine along with prayer. They more than likely are at work in EVERY hospital. They don't do the "faith healing", they aren't called for that. Their calling is to work in the hospital as a doctor.
No amount of prayer is going to heal an unconcious person who's internally bleeding. A doctor will. Sprinkling prayer ontop of the doctor aspect will have no provable results-- just as if someone of the hindu faith prayed. That was my original point.
Re: "spiritual blindness". If' it's a term that you find upsetting, I really apologize. I used it because I can get up in the morning, listen to the news and see how world events LINE UP with what is in my Bible. I don't have to make excuses or live in denial because there is something going on or some new finding that proves my God does not exist and is not who He says He is. To me, that is seeing life wholly. If you can say the same and be honest about it...well, I'm sorry but I don't see how you can. I've been on the path that you currently are on and I know how that feels and what it takes to "not believe in God". It's not a good path no matter how good a person is at living in denial.
Not upsetting at all! I get what you're saying, but the events happening now and in the past have always aligned with what the bible said since those vague 'prophecies' were written. People felt the exact same way you do for thousands of years now-- they all thought the world was getting worse and the end was near. It's all in how you look at it and what you want to see. However in order for a prophecy to actually be authentic, a lot of values within that prophecy need to be extremely-well defined. The bible scores a 0% on that aspect, so it cannot be taken seriously by anybody who values rationality. A while back, the user Teflonfanatic tried showing how the prophecies were coming true with biblical verses, but ultimately it made no sense since any of those verses could be applied to any time throughout history.
And I must apologize if this sounds mean, but I doubt you were ever on the same path I am on if you consider me to be in denial of this one god's existence. Through my studies, I've found that the idea of defined gods is as old as humanity itself. The biblegod is just one of the other millions spawned by ancient minds. With the amount of massive contradictions and outright malevolent problems spawned by the god of Christianity, it's fairly obvious it's fake. Besides, you're practically an atheist yourself! I just believe in one less god than you do. When you realize why you reject all of the other gods ever created, you'll then understand why I reject yours. Denial has nothing to do with it. Logic and reason have everything to do with it.
Our paths crossed and I never told them what I knew and now it's too late for them. Facloner02, our paths have "crossed", I have told you what I know. It's not yet too late for you. In my honest opinion, even though you've said you've tried church before...I think you should pray directly to God. I think you should tell Him what's been going on with you and what you would like Him to do to reach you so that you have no questions left about whether or not He exists. Why? Because time is ticking and eventually it runs out for everyone.
I'm sorry to hear of your losses, but I do hope you realize that this is nothing short of a snake-oil salesman trick. I'm trying to enjoy the one life I know I've got. There's no reason to listen to irrational fearmongering when the problem you speak of cannot even surpass elementary hurdles in reasoning.
-
The problem with using the term "I know" implies that you have sustainable proof of something happening. When the term "I know" glides into the realm of defined gods, spiritual realms, etc. ones own argument implodes in on itself because of a fallacious and completely improbable foundation (not just your defined-spiritual beliefs-- everyone who openly says 'they know'). If you can share anything that can withstand elementary skepticism, go right ahead. Because if you can't, you simply don't know.
Exactly. A more accurate expression of such an opinion would be that the believer has 'faith' and not that they "know" without substantive evidence.
No amount of prayer is going to heal an unconcious person who's internally bleeding. A doctor will. Sprinkling prayer ontop of the doctor aspect will have no provable results-- just as if someone of the hindu faith prayed. That was my original point.
Further, attributing what a surgeon, (even a xtian one), does medically to the auspices of 'prayer' is disengenious and a false attribution. This can be demonstrated by using 'prayer' alone on the patient who's bleeding internally, (without any subsequent religious excuses for why that person died anyway; such as "god's will" or "lack of faith").
Through my studies, I've found that the idea of defined gods is as old as humanity itself. The biblegod is just one of the other millions spawned by ancient minds. With the amount of massive contradictions and outright malevolent problems spawned by the god of Christianity, it's fairly obvious it's fake. Besides, you're practically an atheist yourself! I just believe in one less god than you do. When you realize why you reject all of the other gods ever created, you'll then understand why I reject yours. Denial has nothing to do with it. Logic and reason have everything to do with it.
You raise an aspect of the discussion few xtian believers wish to pursue; that they have no problem believing, (without evidence), in their particular vague deital form yet, reject belief in other deital forms. Even if professing superficial 'tolerance' of other beliefs, (or in the disbelief), of others, there are xtians who "know" their belief is correct and those of others, aren't. This does not constitute knowledge; it forms part of the basis of 'blind faith'.
There's no reason to listen to irrational fearmongering when the problem they speak of cannot even surpass elementary hurdles in reasoning.
Superstitions and reasoning are at odds at an elemental level. Not having 'all' the answers is an insufficient basis to embrace 'faith' or, to eschew reasoning.
-
QON, what I meant to say was instead of "trying church", was actually "try God".
And I said..."we've done more than 'try church'"; i.e., we have "tried god". That was my exact words to myself, actually, when I decided to become a Christian at 16: "Give God a try".
I'm wondering, QON, would it have made you happier if I had pretended to not be a Christian in the FC forums and never had said anything about God to you?
I'm not unhappy. And no, I wouldn't want you to pretend to not be something that is very core to who you are. You see, your dire plea for us to get god in our lives before we die...that concern, is kind of the same concern I feel for anyone who truly believes the bulk of humanity is going to be tortured forever (and deserves it). I'm concerned for anyone who operates their life based on fantastical delusions, because they can be dangerous.
Do you value the friends that let you go on your merry way in life when you may be making a very big mistake and they know it, but they say nothing to you?
But you see here, you're confusing the term "mistake" with "opinion" or "belief". In order for something to be a "mistake", it needs to be proven to generate harm, and having godless beliefs at the time of death has not been proven to generate harm, throughout all of history.
How one decides to spend eternity is every person's choice.
There's no decision involved (unless you decide to take your own life). We will all end up with the same lot in death; "we" as we define ourselves won't be spending anywhere for eternity. The atoms that make up our bodies, however, will continue to exist and become one with other things.
So if it brings anyone any comfort, the Lion King had it right when it said, "When we die, our bodies become the grass, and the antelope eat the grass. And so we are all connnected in the great Circle of Life." lol
-
So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night. I was all mad that my thread got hijacked and went off about how it was just a question about prayer not all the other religious jazz, it was funny to say the very least :wave:
-
So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night. I was all mad that my thread got hijacked and went off about how it was just a question about prayer not all the other religious jazz, it was funny to say the very least :wave:
Well, this IS debate and discuss. If you put up a hot topic (like one involving religion) you're going to get debate. And it may not always correspond 100% to the original topic. Perhaps if you post in your threads, you'd would have that happen.
-
So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night.
Sounds like hit & run posting instead of being involved in the debate & discussion on the subject you raised.
I was all mad that my thread got hijacked and went off about how it was just a question about prayer not all the other religious jazz, it was funny to say the very least :wave:
"Prayer" is inherently "religious jazz" and the context of the responses in this thread have not hijacked the subject matter, (as their content shows).
-
So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night. I was all mad that my thread got hijacked and went off about how it was just a question about prayer not all the other religious jazz, it was funny to say the very least :wave:
The militant atheists will take any excuse to take a simple question about religion and run it into the same old ground. ::)
Nothing new here.Move along. :wave:
-
The militant atheists will take any excuse to take a simple question about religion and run it into the same old ground.
Nothing new here.Move along.
Hey look, Falcon! It's another hit and run post! This time from a complete coward and dunce on every debatable subject imaginable! :D
-
The militant atheists will take any excuse to take a simple question about religion and run it into the same old ground.
Coincidentally, the miliant religionists will take any old excuse to run away from any challenge to blind faith.
Nothing new here.Move along.
You're correct in that those of blind faith have nothing new or substantial to add to the discussion.
Hey look, Falcon! It's another hit and run post! This time from a complete coward and dunce on every debatable subject imaginable! :D
It'd be surprising were it not so commonplace.
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray. :wave:
Yes, I do or make every effort to, right then. I keep a journal that includes all of my family and my friends, along with their requests or certain needs at the time. I also add any that's been asked of me, and I also pray for our country, its leaders, situations, our soldiers, and the world in general, with many of the problems that exist.
I try to pray for each thing. There are many days that after praying for specific people or things, that I'll pray a general prayer for God to work things according to His will, and in His time, depending on the situation. God knows my mind and my heart and what I'm praying for.
I'm human, though, and like you said, a few days go by, and I realize that I'm not praying like I should. But I do try to do my best.
I know some have come in here and totally switched your post around from the original thought you had in mind when posting this. Don't let things like that distract your faith in God or your desire to pray. Many choose not to believe in something they cannot see - therefore, they can't experience the feeling of seeing prayers answered. They know the way and have been given opportunities for choosing differently. Just as many of us choose God, many don't choose God. Ultimately, that's their decision. Just hold tight to your faith. Great post! :)
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray.
So let's be honest about praying, shall we? If you truly wish and care for the person/people to overcome whatever struggle they're in, you will help them directly. Prayer is not a form of helping someone since it's on par with saying "I will cross my fingers for you." If you can't show the results of your efforts, you didn't do anything to help these people. I forget who said this quote-
"A thousand men can pray for a problem to be solved, but it only takes one to stand up, get to work, and solve it."
Effort > No Effort
Totally believe in prayers. God may not always seem to give what everyone wants but he has his reasons.
(http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/meh.ro5565.jpg)
There are a lot of people who "directly" help people in need, whether monetary, physical work, or otherwise. It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help. Some people, who may be disabled themselves, and cannot help "directly," know they can pray and feel comforted knowing God has heard them. I know you don't pray or agree with it - that's your decision. But, for those who do pray, that's also their decision, whether you say it's not real or otherwise.
-
Another anonymous quote that's a bit more famous-
"*bleep* happens!"
Some "call it a day" and some pray. :angel11:
This is the same logic that christian zealots tend to use in hospitals- if an injured person might not make it, it's in god's hands. If the person lives, it's a miracle of god! If the person dies,
it was all in god's plan. The christians do nothing but 'spritually cross their fingers'. Meanwhile the doctor is working his *bleep* off to save the person knowing that the person would have been dead no matter what if it wasn't for the education and technology he knows how to apply. If christians believe god "has a plan", then praying is pointless since one is pretty much asking him to change his plan with a telepathic plea that will swing something in their favor.
My logic doesn't swing in favor of the christian zealots but rather is more in line with the logic of the Christian doctors'.
I cannot think of one time in recorded history where this actually applied and worked.
Your Daily Quotation from FC's daily paid e-mail:
"We don't see things as they are. We see them as we are."
-- Anais Nin
*** No doctor required, finding a cure for spiritual blindness is as easy as finding God.
"Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions."
This man and many more others face their death with unflagging courage, blind to what eternity holds for them. They may think they never sought refuge in "illusions", but if they surely never sought refuge in God then what they settled for actually was an "illusion". It's the "illusion" that satan sells people that makes them feel content on the path they're walking through life without God. The "illusion" that one can live their life and do as they please because "there is no God" and surely no hell. There's an end coming to that "illusion", it's probably going to leave many feeling "scammed". Nothing good ever comes from believing a master of deception.
Hi, Sheryl!
It's a pleasure to see you again! I always enjoy reading your thoughtful and Godly answers to questions or challenges that are put forth to try and contradict our faith. I hope you and yours are doing well - I've missed chatting with you - it's been awhile. :)
-
There are a lot of people who "directly" help people in need, whether monetary, physical work, or otherwise. It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help. Some people, who may be disabled themselves, and cannot help "directly," know they can pray and feel comforted knowing God has heard them. I know you don't pray or agree with it - that's your decision. But, for those who do pray, that's also their decision, whether you say it's not real or otherwise.
Like the doctor example I made earlier, this is an example of false attribution. You say you know, but you don't. But obviously it is the individuals decision and if it acts as a placebo (to the person praying and/or the person he/she told they were praying for), I have no real quarrel with it.
-
It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help.
And again we go back to the oh-so-often overlooked element: why in the world is an almighty entity able to be persuaded by the lowly ants he created?! If he already knows all of your thoughts, not to mention what will happen in the future, prayer does nothing except make a select few feel "comforted".
What makes YOU feel so important that you think you have any say in a "divine plan" that was crafted before humanity even existed? Why would you assume an all-powerful being would be concerned with the petty matters that people often pray about?
Do you see the faults in your beliefs? (That's a rhetorical question, because obviously you don't).
-
I know some have come in here and totally switched your post around from the original thought you had in mind when posting this.
Please quote where this has occurred. I've read all the posts in this thread; some have been honest about "praying" & 'prayer' and some have not, (oddly enough, the ones who have requested honesty about it have not been xtian). Both positions have replied in context and neither has "totally switched" the original intent, (unless you're implying the the original intent was not to have dissent regarding the honesty of "praying").
Don't let things like that distract your faith in God or your desire to pray. Many choose not to believe in something they cannot see - therefore ...
...Therefore, believing in something that cannot be seen is a major aspect of 'blind faith', (since, if the subject of belief could be seen, no 'faith' would be required).
... they can't experience the feeling of seeing prayers answered.
Or, more accurately, they don't attribute observed effects to supernatural causes.
-
There are a lot of people who "directly" help people in need, whether monetary, physical work, or otherwise. It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help. Some people, who may be disabled themselves, and cannot help "directly," know they can pray and feel comforted knowing God has heard them. I know you don't pray or agree with it - that's your decision. But, for those who do pray, that's also their decision, whether you say it's not real or otherwise.
Like the doctor example I made earlier, this is an example of false attribution. You say you know, but you don't. But obviously it is the individuals decision and if it acts as a placebo (to the person praying and/or the person he/she told they were praying for), I have no real quarrel with it.
To prove that prayer really works, we need a properly-conducted double-blind study (i.e., neither the subjects nor the test administrators know who's getting the treatment and who's getting a placebo), just as it would be for any other claimed treatment. Otherwise, if the sick person believes the prayer will help, it may, just as a sugar pill may help as a placebo if a doctor tells a patient it contains powerful medicine. Also, one must keep in mind that the placebo effect isn't effective in every instance, (which includes 'prayer').
-
So usually I post these questions see what people say and rarely post in the thread again but I have to tell you I dreamt about you guys last night.
Sounds like hit & run posting instead of being involved in the debate & discussion on the subject you raised.
Not so much hit and run, every month I post a question I've been pondering and see what others think. Doesn't mean I have to participate in the conversation, if it did FC wouldn't have paid me every single month that I've been a member and yes these are the posts I chose as one of my top 3, heck if you post it and it grows to now 4 pages well I did a great job in my mind.
If I do see something on my thread that has tugged at me I will comment on that persons post specifically but so far very few of your thoughts have affected me, my thoughts on prayer or religion. I just dreamt about you guys and wanted to laugh about it but again obviously taken out of context :wave:
-
very few of your thoughts have affected me, my thoughts on prayer or religion. I just dreamt about you guys and wanted to laugh about it but again obviously taken out of context
I feel some sort of odd and awkward trolling took place just now.
-
Not so much hit and run, every month I post a question I've been pondering and see what others think. Doesn't mean I have to participate in the conversation ...
True, there's no requirement to participate in any thread you start however, not doing so can be accurately described as 'hit & run', (and there's no prohibition against doing that either).
If I do see something on my thread that has tugged at me I will comment on that persons post specifically but so far very few of your thoughts have affected me, my thoughts on prayer or religion.
Conversely, few have bothered to respond to challenges concerning their publically-posted thoughts on prayer or religion. That's either some kind of cosmic coincidence or, a primal fear of questioning blind faith.
I just dreamt about you guys and wanted to laugh about it but again obviously taken out of context :wave:
Since no specific context was mentioned, only speculation remains.
-
... very few of your thoughts have affected me, my thoughts on prayer or religion. I just dreamt about you guys and wanted to laugh about it but again obviously taken out of context.
I feel some sort of odd and awkward trolling took place just now.
Perhaps so however, it remains my policy to feed trolls something indigestable and that's unchanged in this instance.
-
It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help.
And again we go back to the oh-so-often overlooked element: why in the world is an almighty entity able to be persuaded by the lowly ants he created?! If he already knows all of your thoughts, not to mention what will happen in the future, prayer does nothing except make a select few feel "comforted".
What makes YOU feel so important that you think you have any say in a "divine plan" that was crafted before humanity even existed? Why would you assume an all-powerful being would be concerned with the petty matters that people often pray about?
I am not that important, but thanks for trying. I don't have any say in the "divine plan" of God other than trying to live my life the best I can, including praying for others and helping others. As far as your assumption, my only response is that you would have to have a relationship with God in order to understand God being concerned with very important matters that people do indeed pray about. I know, you've said you have been there once - that's between you and God (or now no-god since you don't believe there is God.) I'm there now, with my faith in God, and it's so real that I could never turn my back on Him.
Wow!! We haven't spoken with each other in a very long time - thanks for chatting again! This was very interesting! :)
Do you see the faults in your beliefs? (That's a rhetorical question, because obviously you don't).
-
I know some have come in here and totally switched your post around from the original thought you had in mind when posting this.
Please quote where this has occurred. I've read all the posts in this thread; some have been honest about "praying" & 'prayer' and some have not, (oddly enough, the ones who have requested honesty about it have not been xtian). Both positions have replied in context and neither has "totally switched" the original intent, (unless you're implying the the original intent was not to have dissent regarding the honesty of "praying").
Don't let things like that distract your faith in God or your desire to pray. Many choose not to believe in something they cannot see - therefore ...
...Therefore, believing in something that cannot be seen is a major aspect of 'blind faith', (since, if the subject of belief could be seen, no 'faith' would be required).
You are still having troubles getting around that obstacle of "blind faith." I feel your frustration of not being able to understand how people have "blind faith" in God.
... they can't experience the feeling of seeing prayers answered.
Or, more accurately, they don't attribute observed effects to supernatural causes.
-
There are a lot of people who "directly" help people in need, whether monetary, physical work, or otherwise. It doesn't mean that prayers cannot be said or included with the "direct" help. Some people, who may be disabled themselves, and cannot help "directly," know they can pray and feel comforted knowing God has heard them. I know you don't pray or agree with it - that's your decision. But, for those who do pray, that's also their decision, whether you say it's not real or otherwise.
Like the doctor example I made earlier, this is an example of false attribution. You say you know, but you don't. But obviously it is the individuals decision and if it acts as a placebo (to the person praying and/or the person he/she told they were praying for), I have no real quarrel with it.
To prove that prayer really works, we need a properly-conducted double-blind study (i.e., neither the subjects nor the test administrators know who's getting the treatment and who's getting a placebo), just as it would be for any other claimed treatment. Otherwise, if the sick person believes the prayer will help, it may, just as a sugar pill may help as a placebo if a doctor tells a patient it contains powerful medicine. Also, one must keep in mind that the placebo effect isn't effective in every instance, (which includes 'prayer').
I see you are still struggling with this thing called prayer working. *sigh* It's really not as hard as you are making it out to be. You have to be willing to accept Christ as your Lord for it to work for you and for you to understand why God answers prayers with different answers. But, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."
-
You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."
Why not accept and pray to Vishnu?
-
I see you are still struggling with this thing called prayer working. *sigh* It's really not as hard as you are making it out to be.
On the contrary, I'm not struggling at all with concept that the claim of 'prayer working' has yet to be supported by verifiable evidence. A double-blind test may not show a significant difference between the placebo effect and 'prayer', (the two may or may not be statistically equivalent).
You have to be willing to accept Christ as your Lord for it to work for you ...
Why would I willingly blind myself with such a delusion?
...and for you to understand why God answers prayers with different answers.
Your assertion is devoid of any evidence with accurately attributes 'prayer' with any tangible result.
But, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
Insofar as you meant that I already know how to reason and that you're telling me nothing substantial, you'd be spot on.
You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."[/color]
I don't consider blind faith to be an obstacle to anything but reason, whereas you tacitly consider it a prerequisite to accepting such a delusion.
-
...Therefore, believing in something that cannot be seen is a major aspect of 'blind faith', (since, if the subject of belief could be seen, no 'faith' would be required).
You are still having troubles getting around that obstacle of "blind faith."
Once again, I have no problem at all pointing out how blind faith obstructs reason. You've seen my reiterations of this before and mentioning them again would encourage redundancy.
I feel your frustration of not being able to understand how people have "blind faith" in God. [/color]
On the contrary, it is possible to understand that people who have blind faith in a deital form eschew reason, deny that they are doing so while in the midst of it and are essentially betting on a forlorn hope dark horse.
-
You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."
Why not accept and pray to Vishnu?
Thanks very much for your invitation, but no thank you.
-
I see you are still struggling with this thing called prayer working. *sigh* It's really not as hard as you are making it out to be.
On the contrary, I'm not struggling at all with concept that the claim of 'prayer working' has yet to be supported by verifiable evidence. A double-blind test may not show a significant difference between the placebo effect and 'prayer', (the two may or may not be statistically equivalent).
You have to be willing to accept Christ as your Lord for it to work for you ...
Why would I willingly blind myself with such a delusion?
Well now, you know the answer to your own question. Several have provided the answer as well. You know it comes down to what you are willing to choose or not choose. We already know what you have chosen. And if you are satisfied with your choice and aren't open to a different choice, then who am I to try and change your mind? I know what I CAN do, but some of you hate that word called prayer. Strange but neat things about prayer: it's a wonderful thing when it's answered, especially for a specific situation and/or a specific person.
...and for you to understand why God answers prayers with different answers.
Your assertion is devoid of any evidence with accurately attributes 'prayer' with any tangible result.
But, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
Insofar as you meant that I already know how to reason and that you're telling me nothing substantial, you'd be spot on.
You just have to get around that horrible obstacle blocking you from accepting God with "blind faith."[/color]
I don't consider blind faith to be an obstacle to anything but reason, whereas you tacitly consider it a prerequisite to accepting such a delusion.
-
...Therefore, believing in something that cannot be seen is a major aspect of 'blind faith', (since, if the subject of belief could be seen, no 'faith' would be required).
You are still having troubles getting around that obstacle of "blind faith."
Once again, I have no problem at all pointing out how blind faith obstructs reason. You've seen my reiterations of this before and mentioning them again would encourage redundancy.
Ah, yes, I know you have no problem whatsoever pointing out how "blind faith" obstructs reason. We've heard it many many times. Yep, I've also seen your reiterations.... I would say that your comment of "mentioning them again would encourage redundancy" is exactly right if it was turned around for me to say the same thing to you about you encouraging redundancy from my end for you mentioning them again.
Roadblocks can only last so long before they are opened and you can pass through or you can choose to go a different way - same with "blind faith" - you can pass through or choose a different way. Up to this point we have both made our choices: the roadblock was removed for me and I passed through. You have instead taken a different direction.
I feel your frustration of not being able to understand how people have "blind faith" in God. [/color]
On the contrary, it is possible to understand that people who have blind faith in a deital form eschew reason, deny that they are doing so while in the midst of it and are essentially betting on a forlorn hope dark horse.
-
Strange but neat things about prayer: it's a wonderful thing when it's answered, especially for a specific situation and/or a specific person.
How are you determining that the effect, (allegedly 'answered prayer'), can be directly attributed to only the cause, ('praying')?
-
Roadblocks can only last so long before they are opened and you can pass through or you can choose to go a different way - same with "blind faith" - you can pass through or choose a different way.
I understand your attempts to redefine blind faith as a challenge to be overcome however, that's not what it is. Instead, it constitutes an intentional willingness to disregard reason in favor of a forlorn hope.
Up to this point we have both made our choices: the roadblock was removed for me and I passed through. You have instead taken a different direction. [/size][/color][/b]
No, the roadblock of blind faith remains firmly in place for you, (since ambiguous attributions do not support it), and is a non-factor for me, (since I do not regard it as 'blocking' anything but reason - which I retain despite the blind faith of others).
-
Hi, Sheryl!
It's a pleasure to see you again! I always enjoy reading your thoughtful and Godly answers to questions or challenges that are put forth to try and contradict our faith. I hope you and yours are doing well - I've missed chatting with you - it's been awhile. :)
Hello there jcribb!! :wave: It's good to be back, I missed everybody too. I had never meant to "leave" FC but I was working too much and was too exhausted to deal with the computer most days. I'm done with the second job. Things are great here...how about with you? What's new??
-
qon:
In a former post I asked if it would have made you happier if I had never said that I was a Christian--- I never meant to imply that you weren't happy. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I had just been wondering whether or not you would have preferred that I had kept God all to myself from Day 1, or if you preferred honesty. Your answer And no, I wouldn't want you to pretend to not be something that is very core to who you are.
is just one of the reasons I think you're a great person. Even though we both have different "cores", we both can go past it without the pretense and have fun anyway. (There's alot of other people that get all "hung up" when the "cores" are different...they can't get past the differences and it's a sad way to be, imo.)
Anyway, qon & falconer02: I've missed you both! I hope life has been treating you both well!! (You know, even though I may irritate the mess out of you at times...if I didn't care, I wouldn't be on you about getting your eternal destination plans in order.) ;)
-
Strange but neat things about prayer: it's a wonderful thing when it's answered, especially for a specific situation and/or a specific person.
How are you determining that the effect, (allegedly 'answered prayer'), can be directly attributed to only the cause, ('praying')?
[/quot
The first thing to understanding prayer is whether or not you accept the Lord. The first prayer He hears from anyone is the prayer of repentance and then acceptance of Him. When there is a specific situation prayed for, it will be answered. We might not like the answer at first, but later down the road, it's obvious why. One personal example with me I'll share - but won't discuss the particulars after this because it is/was personal.
Because of my abusive childhood, my self-esteem was crushed. I never thought I'd get married, much less trust anyone. After I got saved, I pored over and "devoured" the Bible, learning, memorizing, then looking for answers. I learned about praying, including specifically for certain people, things, and issues.
So, later in years, all my friends were getting married and having babies, but me. I knew because of my past, I wouldn't know how or if I could trust anyone to date, even take that step to marry. So I met with my SS teachers ( a married couple whom I really liked and trusted.) That helped with many things. I ended up praying for particulars for the man who may would or (wouldn't) be the one for me. One particular was the acceptance of my past and what had happened, including having to put up with my father, who at the time was very hateful to people. I did not choose to go around him, but had to see him when I would see my mom. He ended up getting in a lot of trouble "stalking" me after I got married and had kids.
There were some other particulars I prayed for concerning my "now" hubby. Every single one of them were answered concerning him. My mom laughed at me for the particulars, but had to admit God answered my prayers.
My dad got saved near the end of his life - that was another specific prayer answered for many people. He also asked forgiveness from anyone he had wronged, including my mom and I (If you had known my dad, you would know this was God moving in him because this man had no respect for God or anyone who didn't think like him.)
There are other answers to specific prayers, however, this personal one in my life, was the most obvious answered by God. How you read and interpret is your choice - you are entitled to believe it or refute it. But it changes nothing in how I know God answered these specific prayers - because I accept and love the Lord, and I know what I have learned about praying with confidence and expecting God to answer in His way, will, and time.
-
Hi, Sheryl!
It's a pleasure to see you again! I always enjoy reading your thoughtful and Godly answers to questions or challenges that are put forth to try and contradict our faith. I hope you and yours are doing well - I've missed chatting with you - it's been awhile. :)
Hello there jcribb!! :wave: It's good to be back, I missed everybody too. I had never meant to "leave" FC but I was working too much and was too exhausted to deal with the computer most days. I'm done with the second job. Things are great here...how about with you? What's new??
Well, I'm glad you are back! It hasn't been the same with you not here! You were working too much and I haven't worked since May of last year. Since then, I've still been struggling with some health issues, tests, labs, meds, etc. Right now I'm waiting on some auto immune tests to come back - the doctors are thinking my asthma and other issues are being flared by an underlying auto immune problem.
A couple of our friends have left FC and a couple have cut way back with FC. I miss them, too. I see you've met the other falcon(9) in here. I don't think he was here when you were before you having to work so much.
I look forward to chatting with you again!! :)
-
Roadblocks can only last so long before they are opened and you can pass through or you can choose to go a different way - same with "blind faith" - you can pass through or choose a different way.
I understand your attempts to redefine blind faith as a challenge to be overcome however, that's not what it is. Instead, it constitutes an intentional willingness to disregard reason in favor of a forlorn hope.
Up to this point we have both made our choices: the roadblock was removed for me and I passed through. You have instead taken a different direction. [/size][/color][/b]
No, the roadblock of blind faith remains firmly in place for you, (since ambiguous attributions do not support it), and is a non-factor for me, (since I do not regard it as 'blocking' anything but reason - which I retain despite the blind faith of others).
I'm really sorry you feel that way. You have chosen your way. I have chosen mine. I know beyond a shadow of doubt that God is real and He has shown me in many ways just how real He is, including through prayer. We will continue to disagree on this and unless you are willing to look beyond the obstacle of only reason, and discuss things within God's reasoning and logic, then we will keep going in circles over this. Have a nice day - I have to run errands today. :)
-
I'm really sorry you feel that way. You have chosen your way. I have chosen mine.
I'd be disappointed if you felt that reason _wasn't_ an obstacle to blind faith. For instance, closing ones eyes and bolting across a busy freeway, relying only upon blind faith that you won't be struck by a vehicle wouldn't be a reasonable risk, (without mitigating circumstances). Unless you are as irrational in all other aspects of your life, your way selectively rejects reason.
I know beyond a shadow of doubt that God is real and He has shown me in many ways just how real He is, including through prayer.
It is a misnomer to claim to "know" such a thing when any 'evidence' for such claims is entirely subjective and lacking objective substantiation. In short, such claims are dubious attributions which rely upon blind faith instead.
We will continue to disagree on this and unless you are willing to look beyond the obstacle of only reason, and discuss things within God's reasoning and logic, then we will keep going in circles over this. Have a nice day - I have to run errands today. :)
Did you just insinuate that "god" has some sort of "reasoning and logic"? That is such a blatant misuse of those terms that the question must be asked, (whether avoided or not); exactly what method of reasoning and logic are you implying that "god" uses?
-
Well, I'm glad you are back! It hasn't been the same with you not here! You were working too much and I haven't worked since May of last year. Since then, I've still been struggling with some health issues, tests, labs, meds, etc. Right now I'm waiting on some auto immune tests to come back - the doctors are thinking my asthma and other issues are being flared by an underlying auto immune problem.
A couple of our friends have left FC and a couple have cut way back with FC. I miss them, too. I see you've met the other falcon(9) in here. I don't think he was here when you were before you having to work so much.
I look forward to chatting with you again!! :)
"auto-immune" problem? I'm not sure what that means... I'm sorry you've been struggling with your health all this time. I will HONESTLY keep you in my prayers and will be having your health matters added to my prayer requests when I get with my prayer circle this Sunday. :angel11:
I've noticed walksalone, amyrousse & shernajwine are "missing". I hope they're all having such a great time that they simply forgot about FC...I miss them... :(
-
The first thing to understanding prayer is whether or not you accept the Lord. The first prayer He hears from anyone is the prayer of repentance and then acceptance of Him.
So god has selective listening, does he? He only answers prayers for those in the club? Why does god need worship in the first place?
I won't comment on what I think of your specific situation, jcribb, because I'll only end up looking like an *bleep*. Instead I'll counter with my own example of an "answered prayer"...
When I was still a Christian, I prayed for my mom to receive a Christian man to love her and also a horse (she loves the animal but hasn't had one since her childhood). Check and check for those coming true in a relatively short amount of time thereafter. I "confirmed" that my stepdad was a Christian by asking if he was so on the phone when they were first married. My mom even started going to church because of this man.
Fast forward 2 years later; they are already having problems, and for some reason I'm being solicited for advice on how to fix their marriage. Fast forward another year, and there is plenty of talk of divorce.
Today, 4 years later, the relationship is in shambles and holding on by a thread. My mother is depressed, there are financial struggles, and my stepdad is ready to call it quits. I still get solicited for advice on how to "fix" their marriage. Things are about as bad as they can be.
So as you can see, as a Christian I called this an example of an "answered prayer", but as an atheist, I can now see it's just life. Statistically, most people will marry, and statistically, the person you marry will probably believe in god.
-
falconer02: I've missed you both! I hope life has been treating you both well!! (You know, even though I may irritate the mess out of you at times...if I didn't care, I wouldn't be on you about getting your eternal destination plans in order.)
No, you're far from irritating. Hope you're doing well too. :)
So as you can see, as a Christian I called this an example of an "answered prayer", but as an atheist, I can now see it's just life. Statistically, most people will marry, and statistically, the person you marry will probably believe in god.
Atheism? The devil! Statistics? The devil!
Seriously though, everyone seems to be going through some rough hardships lately. It being winter probably does not help much either. Haven't heard from you in a while! Hope you're doin' good!
-
I also like how the forum Atheist big-wigs will take any excuse to hijack a prayer request or prayer question and turn it into a debate on how people who pray are superstitious primates--and yet still have the hypocrisy to give lectures on putting topics in the right places. ::)
Thank you for submitting an example of cross-posting subject matter from one thread into another unrelated one, (and with a bonus lie about hijacking and "superstitious primates", fabricating a hypocrisy while accussing others of it to boot!). Now, this response will be moved to the thread you're lying about, even if you lack the courage of your convictions to reply there.
-
Also, if prayer was really this "magic bullet" that so many claim it is, you'd think they'd be able to supply dozens of examples just from this month of "god answering their prayers". Why is it that they usually only point to one or two hard times in their lives where things happened to turn out okay?
-
Also, if prayer was really this "magic bullet" that so many claim it is, you'd think they'd be able to supply dozens of examples just from this month of "god answering their prayers". Why is it that they usually only point to one or two hard times in their lives where things happened to turn out okay?
It wouldn't matter if dozens or hundreds of examples of falsely attributing any results to 'prayer' were given since such effects cannot be unambiguously connected to the cause of 'prayer', (or non-religious placebo effect). For instance, an unemployed person 'praying' for a job and receives one without any previous or current applications extant still cannot unambiguously attribute that to 'prayer', (since the job offer had to be extended by the mundane actions/decisions of others; such decisions themselves having no attributable connection to 'prayers').
-
When I pray for someone I am basically saying "I hope you persevere". Do I expect them to be cured as a result? Nah. But raising your conscious mind to wish for the betterment of a loved one takes you out of your ego for a few seconds and helps you appreciate why you care about that person.
Do you need God to do this? No. But if you want the Bears to make a 4th quarter comeback you do!
-
I'm really sorry you feel that way. You have chosen your way. I have chosen mine.
I'd be disappointed if you felt that reason _wasn't_ an obstacle to blind faith. For instance, closing ones eyes and bolting across a busy freeway, relying only upon blind faith that you won't be struck by a vehicle wouldn't be a reasonable risk, (without mitigating circumstances). Unless you are as irrational in all other aspects of your life, your way selectively rejects reason.
I know beyond a shadow of doubt that God is real and He has shown me in many ways just how real He is, including through prayer.
It is a misnomer to claim to "know" such a thing when any 'evidence' for such claims is entirely subjective and lacking objective substantiation. In short, such claims are dubious attributions which rely upon blind faith instead.
We will continue to disagree on this and unless you are willing to look beyond the obstacle of only reason, and discuss things within God's reasoning and logic, then we will keep going in circles over this. Have a nice day - I have to run errands today. :)
Did you just insinuate that "god" has some sort of "reasoning and logic"? That is such a blatant misuse of those terms that the question must be asked, (whether avoided or not); exactly what method of reasoning and logic are you implying that "god" uses?
I don't have the time nor energy to keep going in circles with you just to keep seeing you write the same ole same ole words as your responses to posters comments and examples. This is not going anywhere. Have a nice evening.
-
The first thing to understanding prayer is whether or not you accept the Lord. The first prayer He hears from anyone is the prayer of repentance and then acceptance of Him.
So god has selective listening, does he? He only answers prayers for those in the club? Why does god need worship in the first place?
I won't comment on what I think of your specific situation, jcribb, because I'll only end up looking like an *bleep*. Instead I'll counter with my own example of an "answered prayer"...
When I was still a Christian, I prayed for my mom to receive a Christian man to love her and also a horse (she loves the animal but hasn't had one since her childhood). Check and check for those coming true in a relatively short amount of time thereafter. I "confirmed" that my stepdad was a Christian by asking if he was so on the phone when they were first married. My mom even started going to church because of this man.
Fast forward 2 years later; they are already having problems, and for some reason I'm being solicited for advice on how to fix their marriage. Fast forward another year, and there is plenty of talk of divorce.
Today, 4 years later, the relationship is in shambles and holding on by a thread. My mother is depressed, there are financial struggles, and my stepdad is ready to call it quits. I still get solicited for advice on how to "fix" their marriage. Things are about as bad as they can be.
So as you can see, as a Christian I called this an example of an "answered prayer", but as an atheist, I can now see it's just life. Statistically, most people will marry, and statistically, the person you marry will probably believe in god.
No, I don't believe He has selective hearing. He hears a sinner's prayer. God answers prayers in ways we don't always understand. We don't understand His bigger overall picture. This may sound lame to you, but this is what I feel and believe.
I am really sorry for what your mother and stepdad are struggling through. This also affects you in a major way with being put in the middle. I truly feel for your situation and thank you for taking the time to share it. I really hesitated to share mine but feel a little better about it now. And thank you for sharing your example instead of what you said you'd make yourself look like if you responded to it. You are not that anyway!!
I would like to ask if it's okay to pray for them. If not, I will keep them in my thoughts that things will at least change for the better. As a Christian, I can't give any answers because I don't know why it's happening or what will happen. I can honestly see why you would see it as just life. In a way, it is. But for me personally, as a Christian, I would have to rely, by faith, on Him, knowing that through this, His will would be done.
Thanks, again, for sharing, and for giving me something to think on about this. :)
-
Well, I'm glad you are back! It hasn't been the same with you not here! You were working too much and I haven't worked since May of last year. Since then, I've still been struggling with some health issues, tests, labs, meds, etc. Right now I'm waiting on some auto immune tests to come back - the doctors are thinking my asthma and other issues are being flared by an underlying auto immune problem.
A couple of our friends have left FC and a couple have cut way back with FC. I miss them, too. I see you've met the other falcon(9) in here. I don't think he was here when you were before you having to work so much.
I look forward to chatting with you again!! :)
"auto-immune" problem? I'm not sure what that means... I'm sorry you've been struggling with your health all this time. I will HONESTLY keep you in my prayers and will be having your health matters added to my prayer requests when I get with my prayer circle this Sunday. :angel11:
I've noticed walksalone, amyrousse & shernajwine are "missing". I hope they're all having such a great time that they simply forgot about FC...I miss them... :(
Thank you, Sheryl, for your prayers. They are very much appreciated. "An autoimmune disorder is a condition that occurs when the immune system mistakenly attacks and destroys healthy body tissue. There are more than 80 different types of autoimmune disorders." I heard back today on the labwork and there were a couple ruled out. I have more chest x- rays to try and rule out a couple of others. There is something there, just have to figure out what.
I don't know about walks - someone else in here may. I don't know if amy and sherene have totally dropped or taking a break, but we do keep up otherwise. They are doing well.
Take care and hope to see you again soon!
:cat:
-
jcribb16
ok...about the auto-immune thing... I know some preachers will say when you have faith that you can pray once and know that God hears, that you don't have to keep "harping" on Him. That's all fine and good but...I have a total of 4 prayer groups and He's going to be getting a prayer for you from each one of them. ;) I know there are so many opinions on prayer: how to pray, how often to pray, what to pray for, what NOT to pray for. I just know I only contact all 4 prayer groups when it's a BIG EMERGENCY. This Sunday, many will be praying for you!!
Tonight I was reading some old posts from last November...seems Annella had a "go-round" in a thread titled "Re: how old or young were you when you had sex the 1st time" of all things. I don't know if it was because I'm overtired or what, but the mere thought of her causing such a "ruckus" in there of all places really cracked me up. She's a feisty gal. I might have missed it but I didn't see a post that said she'd be taking a break or leaving...
-
I don't have the time nor energy to keep going in circles with you just to keep seeing you write the same ole same ole words as your responses to posters comments and examples. This is not going anywhere. Have a nice evening.
It doesn't surprise me that you aren't comprehending my replies to your 'round & 'round posts and characterize them as the same thing. Having no particular expectations, one way or another, the benefit of the doubt is initially given when responding, (e.g., that a reply will be at least loosely related to what is being responded to). Sometimes that works out and conversational exchanges occur. Other times, one of the participants is blinded by faith and unable to employ reason while the otehr is not. Thems the breaks.
-
We have a prayer chain at our church, so when I get a call that someone needs prayer, I immediately say a prayer for them, and then pass it on to the next person on the list.
-
I believe in prayer, and when I say I'll pray for someone I try to do it right then. :angel11:
-
@jcribb16: You can if you want to.
-
Prayer is our way of talking with God. If we don't ever pray, where will we get divine wisdom and knowledge from? How would we know what to do in life. God has all the answers.
-
Prayer is our way of talking with God. If we don't ever pray, where will we get divine wisdom and knowledge from? How would we know what to do in life. God has all the answers.
Such an opinion falls under "a belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination", (dictionary.com, rather than bible.com).
-
jcribb16
ok...about the auto-immune thing... I know some preachers will say when you have faith that you can pray once and know that God hears, that you don't have to keep "harping" on Him. That's all fine and good but...I have a total of 4 prayer groups and He's going to be getting a prayer for you from each one of them. ;) I know there are so many opinions on prayer: how to pray, how often to pray, what to pray for, what NOT to pray for. I just know I only contact all 4 prayer groups when it's a BIG EMERGENCY. This Sunday, many will be praying for you!!
Tonight I was reading some old posts from last November...seems Annella had a "go-round" in a thread titled "Re: how old or young were you when you had sex the 1st time" of all things. I don't know if it was because I'm overtired or what, but the mere thought of her causing such a "ruckus" in there of all places really cracked me up. She's a feisty gal. I might have missed it but I didn't see a post that said she'd be taking a break or leaving...
Sheryl, thank you so much for the prayers from all of the groups. I'm grateful and that means a lot. :)
Annella is gone now but we do keep up. She's doing great.
-
@jcribb16: You can if you want to.
Thank you. I am right now and will include it in my journal.
-
@jcribb16: You can if you want to.
Thank you. I am right now and will include it in my journal.
Just out of curiousity, may I ask what you'd have done if she declined, (not meant to be offensive)? The reason I asked is because some people would do a 'stealth prayer' anyway, (not that you wouldn't respect her wishes). Nominally, it may not matter to a non-xtian whether they are 'prayed for' or not however, my question regarded such 'intercession' and consent.
-
@jcribb16: You can if you want to.
Thank you. I am right now and will include it in my journal.
Just out of curiousity, may I ask what you'd have done if she declined, (not meant to be offensive)? The reason I asked is because some people would do a 'stealth prayer' anyway, (not that you wouldn't respect her wishes). Nominally, it may not matter to a non-xtian whether they are 'prayed for' or not however, my question regarded such 'intercession' and consent.
I would respect her wishes. I've learned a lot through the years, especially this last year. Sure I can pray for whoever I feel like I should on my own. However, I don't think prayer should publicly be "threatened" on or pushed on anyone, especially those who either don't want it or ask that you not to. The situation she's got on her touched my heart and I wish I could help in my own way. Praying is the only way I can think of since we're on opposite sides of the computer screens, but I honestly felt it was important to ask her and then respect her answer given, whichever way she decided.
-
I would respect her wishes. I've learned a lot through the years, especially this last year. Sure I can pray for whoever I feel like I should on my own. However, I don't think prayer should publicly be "threatened" on or pushed on anyone, especially those who either don't want it or ask that you not to. The situation she's got on her touched my heart and I wish I could help in my own way. Praying is the only way I can think of since we're on opposite sides of the computer screens, but I honestly felt it was important to ask her and then respect her answer given, whichever way she decided.
That's a very considered answer. Although I'm not sure one can 'threaten' another with prayer, (which strikes me as somehow humorous), it appeared to me, (and I could be wrong, since I don't speak for QoN), that she was leaving it up to you and was fairly indifferent either way.
Since "prayer" is intended to be an intercessionary invocation to one or more deities, do you feel that such a thing would help, even if the one 'prayed for' does not believe in such deities? Assuming QoN feels that it could do no harm, (and again, I'm guessing here), and that you obviously feel it would be helpful, (if in a somewhat vague and undefined manner), what would you expect to happen?
-
Prayer didn't work for Whitney Houston, did it???? I am almost sure she was very religious and always had people praying for her to get clean and get her mind right, but it sadly didn't work. Prayers are just words to the wind, not tangible, not real. So why even bother?? To make yourself feel better? HMMMM?!?!?!?
-
Prayer didn't work for Whitney Houston, did it???? I am almost sure she was very religious and always had people praying for her to get clean and get her mind right, but it sadly didn't work. Prayers are just words to the wind, not tangible, not real. So why even bother?? To make yourself feel better? HMMMM?!?!?!?
That's an insightful perspective; that prayers are self-righteous self-delusions.
-
Prayer didn't work for Whitney Houston, did it???? I am almost sure she was very religious and always had people praying for her to get clean and get her mind right, but it sadly didn't work. Prayers are just words to the wind, not tangible, not real. So why even bother?? To make yourself feel better? HMMMM?!?!?!?
Prayer is a complicated matter, there are so many people with books out on the topic and everyone has different opinions to make it more confusing. "Whitney" more than likely had many praying for her to get clean and get her mind right. If I'm not mistaken, I think she also came from a "church background" and so she probably knew God was there. I'm sure God had/was knocking at Whitney's heart. Ultimately, it was her decision to make as God doesn't make anyone accept Him.
Unfortunately, people don't just get to live on and on until they decide "ok, it's time for Jesus now"...because they never would. Many tend to think that they will just do what they want to do and then they'll get "Jesus" before it's too late. Usually, it doesn't work like that.
A person gets "trapped" and their addictions mess up their minds in such a way that Jesus is the LAST thing on their minds. (If it was hard for that person to seek Jesus when they could think straight, it gets even harder when they can't!)
Just because someone prays for someone else doesn't mean that prayer automatically gets answered with a "YES" from God. God is not some "wish-granting genie". I think "The Lord's Prayer" is a good example of how prayers should be. Prayer is converstaion with God, not just giving Him a "wish-list". They're are all sorts of reasons why some prayers get answered, some don't and some get a "no" which is also an "answer".
There are quite a few people that I've been praying for for many years now and I know God has knocked at their hearts because after I had been fasting and praying for them (without them knowing) they had told me things (like how they had given a hitchhiker a ride recently and it turned out that he was a pastor, and they really liked him and was going to be going to his church...and they did for awhile but then they started messing around with the "addictions" again and that tapered off). That has happened repeatedly with some of them because while I can request that God keep knocking...and God will keep knocking, this person has to open the door and they have to open the door before their number is up to avoid becoming another tragic ending.
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
No, people who say this don't do it; it's just something they say to put the absolute least effort forward to pretend they're doing something about a situation. Or they say it to be a self-righteous *bleep* to people they "pity" (like atheists).
While we're being "honest" about prayer -- you can get the same results praying to a jug of milk.
*claps* Praying is pointless and stupid.
-
I would respect her wishes. I've learned a lot through the years, especially this last year. Sure I can pray for whoever I feel like I should on my own. However, I don't think prayer should publicly be "threatened" on or pushed on anyone, especially those who either don't want it or ask that you not to. The situation she's got on her touched my heart and I wish I could help in my own way. Praying is the only way I can think of since we're on opposite sides of the computer screens, but I honestly felt it was important to ask her and then respect her answer given, whichever way she decided.
That's a very considered answer. Although I'm not sure one can 'threaten' another with prayer, (which strikes me as somehow humorous), it appeared to me, (and I could be wrong, since I don't speak for QoN), that she was leaving it up to you and was fairly indifferent either way.
Since "prayer" is intended to be an intercessionary invocation to one or more deities, do you feel that such a thing would help, even if the one 'prayed for' does not believe in such deities? Assuming QoN feels that it could do no harm, (and again, I'm guessing here), and that you obviously feel it would be helpful, (if in a somewhat vague and undefined manner), what would you expect to happen?
For me, an example of a "threatened" prayer is one who threatens "hell and brimstone fire" if you don't accept Jesus. Some people can get pretty mean about that, although I believe they are honestly trying to get someone to "see" how lost they are. They either may not realize how it's coming across, or they get upset and it comes out harsh to some. "Threatening" to me, tends to cause more dissension than anything.
QON and I have gone through a lot on here - agreeable and disagreeable. She is very honest and upfront with what she thinks, including prayer. At this point, I would rather not discuss this anymore, since I don't think it's fair to talk about her, why and what she meant, and you wanting me to generalize results of the prayer. It's pretty obvious what I would love to see happen and I would like to leave it at that, out of respect for her. Thank you - I appreciate your honest questions and hope I've answered enough to satisfy your curiosity, yet not make my question and her response the topic at hand.
-
Prayer didn't work for Whitney Houston, did it???? I am almost sure she was very religious and always had people praying for her to get clean and get her mind right, but it sadly didn't work. Prayers are just words to the wind, not tangible, not real. So why even bother?? To make yourself feel better? HMMMM?!?!?!?
Prayer is a complicated matter, there are so many people with books out on the topic and everyone has different opinions to make it more confusing. "Whitney" more than likely had many praying for her to get clean and get her mind right. If I'm not mistaken, I think she also came from a "church background" and so she probably knew God was there. I'm sure God had/was knocking at Whitney's heart. Ultimately, it was her decision to make as God doesn't make anyone accept Him.
Unfortunately, people don't just get to live on and on until they decide "ok, it's time for Jesus now"...because they never would. Many tend to think that they will just do what they want to do and then they'll get "Jesus" before it's too late. Usually, it doesn't work like that.
A person gets "trapped" and their addictions mess up their minds in such a way that Jesus is the LAST thing on their minds. (If it was hard for that person to seek Jesus when they could think straight, it gets even harder when they can't!)
Just because someone prays for someone else doesn't mean that prayer automatically gets answered with a "YES" from God. God is not some "wish-granting genie". I think "The Lord's Prayer" is a good example of how prayers should be. Prayer is converstaion with God, not just giving Him a "wish-list". They're are all sorts of reasons why some prayers get answered, some don't and some get a "no" which is also an "answer".
There are quite a few people that I've been praying for for many years now and I know God has knocked at their hearts because after I had been fasting and praying for them (without them knowing) they had told me things (like how they had given a hitchhiker a ride recently and it turned out that he was a pastor, and they really liked him and was going to be going to his church...and they did for awhile but then they started messing around with the "addictions" again and that tapered off). That has happened repeatedly with some of them because while I can request that God keep knocking...and God will keep knocking, this person has to open the door and they have to open the door before their number is up to avoid becoming another tragic ending.
Well said, Sheryl, and I agree.
-
Just because someone prays for someone else doesn't mean that prayer automatically gets answered with a "YES" from God. God is not some "wish-granting genie".
Well said, Sheryl, and I agree.
Presumably, you meant with this part as well. Puts somewhat of a dent in the efficacy of praying, does it not?
-
For me, an example of a "threatened" prayer is one who threatens "hell and brimstone fire" if you don't accept Jesus. Some people can get pretty mean about that, although I believe they are honestly trying to get someone to "see" how lost they are. They either may not realize how it's coming across, or they get upset and it comes out harsh to some.
It is extremely presumptuous to characterize non-believers as "lost", (especially when that designation can be applied to 'believers' who have lost touch with reason and are resorting to unreasoned faith). Sometimes such an attitude is perceived as harsh and sometimes it isn't.
QON and I have gone through a lot on here - agreeable and disagreeable. She is very honest and upfront with what she thinks, including prayer. At this point, I would rather not discuss this anymore, since I don't think it's fair to talk about her, why and what she meant, and you wanting me to generalize results of the prayer. It's pretty obvious what I would love to see happen and I would like to leave it at that, out of respect for her. Thank you - I appreciate your honest questions and hope I've answered enough to satisfy your curiosity, yet not make my question and her response the topic at hand.
I understand and that's why I previously mentioned being unable to speak for QoN, (she's quite able to speak for herself as she choses). The reason I brought that up, (in context, she she did reply), was QoN's specific comment that "While we're being "honest" about prayer -- you can get the same results praying to a jug of milk."
Maybe I interpreted that a bit differently than you did and QoN can choose to remove any ambiguity there if desired.
-
Presumably, you meant with this part as well. Puts somewhat of a dent in the efficacy of praying, does it not?
Only if the ONLY reason you are praying is to see what you can get. Prayer is supposed to be "talking to your Best friend". If you have friends that only take the time to talk to you when they want something or it's all about "what's in it for them"... that isn't much of a "friendship" and would put a dent in the efficacy of praying.
-
Presumably, you meant with this part as well. Puts somewhat of a dent in the efficacy of praying, does it not?
Only if the ONLY reason you are praying is to see what you can get.
Well yes, the context was 'intercessionary prayer' however, if you wish to expand that context to 'conversational prayer' where nothing is being asked for, we can talk about that too.
Prayer is supposed to be "talking to your Best friend". If you have friends that only take the time to talk to you when they want something or it's all about "what's in it for them"... that isn't much of a "friendship" and would put a dent in the efficacy of praying.
That seems more of a one-way 'conversation' than "talking to your best friend", (unless you are implicitly suggesting that you're not the only one talking in such a conversation, rather than 'talking to yourself'?). The reason I ask this is because talking to oneself would also put a dent in the efficacy of such a 'prayer'. No doubt you believe that you are not talking to yourself while engaging in such a 'prayer' and that's the reason for asking whether or not you also believe that conversational responses are received.
-
falconer9--dude, it probably won't be long before you're left all alone talking to yourself"......there's a thread with FC members putting you on "ignore" right now as we "speak"... :o
-
falconer9--dude, it probably won't be long before you're left all alone talking to yourself"......there's a thread with FC members putting you on "ignore" right now as we "speak"... :o
The day will not arrive in which I fear some such pseudo-quaker type of 'shunning'. Although the day that some xtians fear opposing challenges to their 'blind faith' has apparently arrived before now. Speaking of which, is this the cop-out you're intending to use for not answering the efficacy challenges which you previously were not ignoring?
-
falconer9--dude, it probably won't be long before you're left all alone talking to yourself"......there's a thread with FC members putting you on "ignore" right now as we "speak"... :o
The day will not arrive in which I fear some such pseudo-quaker type of 'shunning'. Although the day that some xtians fear opposing challenges to their 'blind faith' has apparently arrived before now.
LOL...well, here's my post to let you know I haven't put you on "ignore" yet... :) Have a great evening (I have to be at work tomorrow at 5 a.m., on a Monday...if I don't get some zzzz's, God help my co-workers!! ;D)
-
LOL...well, here's my post to let you know I haven't put you on "ignore" yet... :) Have a great evening (I have to be at work tomorrow at 5 a.m., on a Monday...if I don't get some zzzz's, God help my co-workers!! ;D)
I'm not sure if that means I can expect an additional reply or, that you just haven't had the opportunity to put me on "ignore" yet. Either way, rest well, (you wouldn't want your co-workers to 'shun' you).
-
Prayer didn't work for Whitney Houston, did it???? I am almost sure she was very religious and always had people praying for her to get clean and get her mind right, but it sadly didn't work. Prayers are just words to the wind, not tangible, not real. So why even bother?? To make yourself feel better? HMMMM?!?!?!?
That's an insightful perspective; that prayers are self-righteous self-delusions.
I totally agree, praying to me is just a "religious showboating", so to speak. Just another way for religious people to empower theirselves and thrust their silly beliefs around those who can't handle life, feeling somehow that this act will make them better in the long run. Survey says XXXXXXX! Its just a load of :bs: to me!!!
-
Another point I'd like to bring up is that the religious love to go around saying that god gives them "free will"; however, by praying for someone else without their knowledge/consent, how are you not overriding their free will?
Also, it many instances what it would take for a situation to become better is for god to manipulate a person's brain chemistry, thus affecting their behavior. For example, you can't expect an unhappy married couple to love each other again without some head tinkering on god's part. This is an extreme violation of free will and yet another contradiction within Christian beliefs.
-
If you pray with your heart and you are sincere the Lord will listen, because he always does. And all you have to do is have a conversation with the Lord and tell him whats in going on with your life. Just be yourself and be sincere about everything and you will not regret it. JUST OPEN YOUR HEART TO HIM. And have faith because with faith you accomplish anything. I the Lord will not leave any prayer with an anwser.
-
Another point I'd like to bring up is that the religious love to go around saying that god gives them "free will"; however, by praying for someone else without their knowledge/consent, how are you not overriding their free will?
Also, it many instances what it would take for a situation to become better is for god to manipulate a person's brain chemistry, thus affecting their behavior. For example, you can't expect an unhappy married couple to love each other again without some head tinkering on god's part. This is an extreme violation of free will and yet another contradiction within Christian beliefs.
I think God considers the prayers, considers who is doing the praying, considers who they are praying for and their motivations. Everyone has free will, everyone makes their own choices. Someone might pray that He touch an unknowing believers heart and suppose He does. It's still the unbelievers decision whether or not to accept Him. He doesn't mess with anyone's head or make anyone choose Him.
An unhappy married couple can love each other again without some head tinkering on God's part---Dr. Phil has made it happen as well as many other marriage counselors. Ideally married couples that are Christian should seek out a reputable Christian marriage counsellor because they offer counselling on the Christian marriage, which would treat the whole Christian marriage and not just part of it.
I really hope things work out for your mom and stepdad. It's obvious you care about them so much, they're really lucky to have you.
-
Another point I'd like to bring up is that the religious love to go around saying that god gives them "free will"; however, by praying for someone else without their knowledge/consent, how are you not overriding their free will?
Someone might pray that He touch an unknowing believers and suppose He does. It's still the unbelievers decision whether or not to accept Him. He doesn't mess with anyone's head or make anyone choose Him.
So such a 'prayer' would be an attempt at coercing free will which may ot may not be successful?
-
So such a 'prayer' would be an attempt at coercing free will which may ot may not be successful?
If that person "KNOWS" that God does not exist, then why would that bother them? :dontknow:
-
If that person "KNOWS" that God does not exist, then why would that bother them? :dontknow:
C'mon, Sheryls - that's a trick question since neither those who claim such an existence "knows", nor do those claiming the opposite "know". The defining difference between the two stances being that those who claim to "know god exists" bear the obligation of presenting evidence supporting such claims, (so too would someone claiming to "know" the opposite however, this was presented as a 'strawman' argument in that no one has so far claime to "know" something of this sort doesn't exist. The reason it's a strawman arguement is that it not only presents a false dichotomy - knowing vs. not knowing - but, presents it as a sophist implication that if someone doesn't know whether something exists, it may or must exist).
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray. :wave:
I do it. Because I think one of the way to honest to other is to be honest to yourself. Only if I really forget it on that day. I'll make it up for the next day when I remember.
-
If that person "KNOWS" that God does not exist, then why would that bother them? :dontknow:
C'mon, Sheryls - that's a trick question since neither those who claim such an existence "knows", nor do those claiming the opposite "know". The defining difference between the two stances being that those who claim to "know god exists" bear the obligation of presenting evidence supporting such claims, (so too would someone claiming to "know" the opposite however, this was presented as a 'strawman' argument in that no one has so far claime to "know" something of this sort doesn't exist. The reason it's a strawman arguement is that it not only presents a false dichotomy - knowing vs. not knowing - but, presents it as a sophist implication that if someone doesn't know whether something exists, it may or must exist).
ok...even if that person "THINKS" that God does not exist...then why would that bother them? I thought the general belief was that a "believer praying to God" vs. "a believer praying to a jug of milk" produces the same results. I've never known a jug of milk to infringe upon someone's "free will", have you?
-
I think it's only fair to say that you can't pea for unrealistic things. Asking for someone to love you, or asking to hit the lotto are unrealistic. I think if you have REAL prayers God does hear them and will consider them. I think you have to truly believe in God and his work for a prayer to be Answered :angel12:
-
I think it's only fair to say that you can't pea for unrealistic things. Asking for someone to love you, or asking to hit the lotto are unrealistic. I think if you have REAL prayers God does hear them and will consider them. I think you have to truly believe in God and his work for a prayer to be Answered :angel12:
"you can't pea"? I'll pray for you. ( ;D sorry for the bad joke, I couldn't resist) *hugs!!
-
I think it's only fair to say that you can't pea for unrealistic things.
"you can't pea"? I'll pray for you. ( ;D sorry for the bad joke, I couldn't resist) *hugs!!
Implied consent? Cool, that means I can have associates invoke "satan" for her too ... peeing is important and beats dialysis.
-
I think it's only fair to say that you can't pea pray for unrealistic things.
Not according to Jesus!
"I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." - Matthew 21:21-22
So either you don't really believe hard enough that you can pray for a mountain to take a dip in the ocean (duh), or all of this is just hogwash. Hmm, which is more "realistic"?
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm
-
So either you don't really believe hard enough that you can pray for a mountain to take a dip in the ocean (duh), or all of this is just hogwash. Hmm, which is more "realistic"?
While anyone can try 'praying' for such things, the liklihood that the desired result will occur is nil. On the other hand, 'praying' for more realistic results, (which can be attributed to more realistic causes), is often inaccurately attributed to 'praying' because of the lack of causal evidence. Making such unfounded claims, (dubiously attributing any 'results' obtained to 'prayer'), is not being "honest about praying".
http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm
One of my preferred sites; I wonder if any believers have looked at it?
-
ok...even if that person "THINKS" that God does not exist...then why would that bother them? I thought the general belief was that a "believer praying to God" vs. "a believer praying to a jug of milk" produces the same results. I've never known a jug of milk to infringe upon someone's "free will", have you?
The first difference that springs to mind is that the jug of milk sits there and exists for anyone who wants to pray to it, (or not). I could be mistaken however, it seemed that QoN was making the point that prayer to either was essentially equivalent.
-
Praying only occurs when you want something that you can't have or if you want confidence. The whole thing is really pathetic if you think about. :BangHead:
-
Yes I do - I find it difficult but if someone asks for prayers I do my best, even having a one sided conversation with the Lord is concidered a prayer. :angel12:
-
Praying only occurs when you want something that you can't have or if you want confidence. The whole thing is really pathetic if you think about. :BangHead:
Would you equate it to "begging" or, not?
-
even having a one sided conversation with the Lord is concidered a prayer. :angel12:
It can also be considered as 'talking to oneself', however.
-
Jesus Christ prayed to the Father while he was on Earth. Prayer is direct communication with God. I pray everyday to God about many things. If i tell you that i will pray for you about a specific issue, than i will. Because i have not only told you that i would pray; but God also. Prayer is an important part of my daily life and i don't take it lightly.
-
Jesus Christ prayed to the Father while he was on Earth. Prayer is direct communication with God.
Same guy who 'prayed', "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?", (which is rendered as "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?")?
-
To understand the Bible, one has to look at the verses that come before and after a particular verse in question and study Bible literature. The Bible uses "figures of speech", symbolic imagery, poetry, parables, etc.
For example, the verse "O taste and see that the LORD is good..." (Psalm 34:vs. eight) interprets to Christian that David has found protection from the Lord; he had had evidence of His goodness; and he asks now of others that they would make the same trial which he had made.
To the non-believer, it interprets as the Lord saying "bite me". :angel12:
Those that seek the Truth...shall find it. :heart:
-
Yes I do pray for someone when I tell them I am going to. My hope is that by praying for their needs or concerns that blessings will not only come their way, but mine as well. We must love others as we love ourselves!
-
To understand the Bible, one has to look at the verses that come before and after a particular verse in question and study Bible literature. The Bible uses "figures of speech", symbolic imagery, poetry, parables, etc.
As such, it is widely open to interpretation, (translation errors and misinterpretations).
For example, the verse "O taste and see that the LORD is good..." (Psalm 34:vs. eight) interprets to Christian that David has found protection from the Lord; he had had evidence of His goodness; and he asks now of others that they would make the same trial which he had made.
Or, going by Young's Literal Translation (of the Hebew & Greek translations) that was rendered as "Taste ye and see that Jehovah is good, O the happiness of the man who trusteth in Him." The verses preceding and following 8, (which provide context, according to your assertion), are: "7-A messenger of Jehovah is encamping, Round about those who fear Him, And He armeth them" and "9-Fear Jehovah, ye His holy ones, For there is no lack to those fearing Him."
From this context, the reference is to 'fearing jehovah' and "trusing" that it's all good.
To the non-believer, it interprets as the Lord saying "bite me". :angel12:
Conversely, from this context, the reference is to 'fearing jehovah' and "trusing" that it's all good.
From this context, the reference is to 'fearing jehovah' and "trusing" that it's all good.
Those that seek the Truth...shall find it. :heart:
[/quote]
Not however, in a translation of an interpretation of a retranslation of sketchy and dubiously-sourced material. This endeth my participation in 'thumping' the "bible", (which should be interpretated to mean that I'm already familar with several variations of those 'texts' and this would be a zero-sum venture to continue).
-
I don't pray. I do sometimes say to myself that I hope so-and-so is feeling better or gets better but it's never to any specific deity or god. When I see that prayer doesn't help at all when it matters most I can't think about doing it and it meaning something. I know that sounds awful but being in a bad place with myself right now I don't believe in very much good..I'm trying to find balance though so I hope I can find a way to believe in something again.
-
To understand the Bible, one has to look at the verses that come before and after a particular verse in question and study Bible literature. The Bible uses "figures of speech", symbolic imagery, poetry, parables, etc.
For example, the verse "O taste and see that the LORD is good..." (Psalm 34:vs. eight) interprets to Christian that David has found protection from the Lord; he had had evidence of His goodness; and he asks now of others that they would make the same trial which he had made.
To the non-believer, it interprets as the Lord saying "bite me". :angel12:
Those that seek the Truth...shall find it. :heart:
I always enjoy your responses/examples, Sheryl. I've noticed that you have met the other poster since you've come back. :)
-
I BELIEVE IN PRAYER; BUT IF YOU ASKED SOMEONE IF I PRAY, THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO ANSWER YOU. BECAUSE THIS IS BETWEEN ME AND GOD AND NO ONE ELSE!
-
I BELIEVE IN PRAYER; BUT IF YOU ASKED SOMEONE IF I PRAY, THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO ANSWER YOU. BECAUSE THIS IS BETWEEN ME AND GOD AND NO ONE ELSE!
"hiding your light under a bushel"?... :sad1:
-
I always enjoy your responses/examples, Sheryl. I've noticed that you have met the other poster since you've come back. :)
Thanks jcribb16. I hope you're feeling much better!! Yes, I've met the other poster...I think he adds a great deal of fun to the FC forums. :)
-
I BELIEVE IN PRAYER; BUT IF YOU ASKED SOMEONE IF I PRAY, THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO ANSWER YOU. BECAUSE THIS IS BETWEEN ME AND GOD AND NO ONE ELSE!
"hiding your light under a bushel"?... :sad1:
This could lead to a burning "bushel"?
-
Yes, I've met the other poster...I think he adds a great deal of fun to the FC forums. :)
Surely I'm not the only "other poster"?
-
Yes, I've met the other poster...I think he adds a great deal of fun to the FC forums. :)
Surely I'm not the only "other poster"?
Ok, but my name's NOT Surely. ;)
-
I think it's only fair to say that you can't pea for unrealistic things. Asking for someone to love you, or asking to hit the lotto are unrealistic. I think if you have REAL prayers God does hear them and will consider them. I think you have to truly believe in God and his work for a prayer to be Answered
My intentions are NOT to pick on the OP of this quote, I just have a difference of opinion and so I'm posting my "two cents".
I think it's only reasonable to pray for "unrealistic things". I would say God gave most everyone what they needed to do for themselves when He gave them two hands (others will say their two hands came from their parents) and regardless of who gets credit from where the two hands came from...MOST everyone has two hands. It's reasonable to me that people can do what they need to do to make their "realistic" hopes/dreams/needs happen. IMO, people that pray to God for "realistic" things are either too lazy to do for themselves or unknowledgable about what the Bible says (because many don't take the time to learn what the Bible says or go to church to learn) so they don't know what their faith entitles them to, or they don't have much faith in God and so they don't expect Him to do unrealistic things.
One example: Joe gets let go from his nice, high paying managment job. He can't find related work anywhere and he refuses to take any job that pays much less than what he's accustomed to. He'd much rather sit in front of the computer and play games all day long and then sneak in a prayer to God somewhere during his "busy" day expecting God to either give him another high paying job or a large amount of money so he can pay his bills. Joe is going to be mad at God later because God didn't "answer" his prayers. He doesn't realize God already has done everything He had needed to do for Joe before Joe was born. Joe needs to get his "butt in gear" and make the most of his potential. When Joe hits an obstacle that he absolutely cannot overcome on his own, that's when he should pray for the victory. I think God answers prayers best when they are a challenge, so when He answers them...we have no doubts that it was Him.
-
I never tell anyone that I'll pray for them, to me its just better to do it. Like its an anonymous call to god on that person behave, and I make it a silent prayer as I'm parting with the person. I can go through a day always say "Dear God, there are more people out there that need your help I know, and I ask that you look into the life of (persons name, or description) and help make his life better. Amen" I don't know if god is listening right then and there, but I'm sure he'll get the memo.
-
I think it's only reasonable to pray for "unrealistic things".
Logically, it isn't realistic and therefore, not reasonable, (amiable to reason), to do so. Of course, 'prayer' isn't logical so nothing about it is amiable to reason.
I would say God gave most everyone what they needed to do for themselves when He gave them two hands (others will say their two hands came from their parents) and regardless of who gets credit from where the two hands came from...MOST everyone has two hands. It's reasonable to me that people can do what they need to do to make their "realistic" hopes/dreams/needs happen. IMO, people that pray to God for "realistic" things are either too lazy to do for themselves or unknowledgable about what the Bible says (because many don't take the time to learn what the Bible says or go to church to learn) so they don't know what their faith entitles them to, or they don't have much faith in God and so they don't expect Him to do unrealistic things.
One example: Joe gets let go from his nice, high paying managment job. He can't find related work anywhere and he refuses to take any job that pays much less than what he's accustomed to. He'd much rather sit in front of the computer and play games all day long and then sneak in a prayer to God somewhere during his "busy" day expecting God to either give him another high paying job or a large amount of money so he can pay his bills. Joe is going to be mad at God later because God didn't "answer" his prayers. He doesn't realize God already has done everything He had needed to do for Joe before Joe was born. Joe needs to get his "butt in gear" and make the most of his potential.
This comes across much like the adage that "the lord helps those who help themselves", (which, on one level, means that help is allegedly forthcoming to those who don't need it and, on another level, that one who helps themselves along doesn't need a "lord").
I think God answers prayers best when they are a challenge, so when He answers them...we have no doubts that it was Him.
If that were the case, there would be at some some unambiguous examples of this which can be directly attributed to 'answered prayers'. Unfortunately, all previously submitted examples are ambiguous and rely wholly upon 'faith' and false attributions.
-
Unfortunately, all previously submitted examples are ambiguous and rely wholly upon 'faith' and false attributions.
Believers are supposed to rely wholly upon 'faith' and it isn't "blind faith". Believers "walk by faith" and "not by sight" --- but it isn't "blind faith. "Walking by faith and not by sight" means that when a Believer hears bad news, when they see things are looking really bad, that no matter what everyone else is saying...they have a God that is BIGGER than thes circumstances and they can call on Him and know that He hears them.
The "faith" isn't blind because any believer that has been a believer for any length of time should have a "history" of answered prayers and each one of those answered prayers becomes a "building block" which strengthens their faith. So while their faith might be "blind" to others, it surely is not to them...they've seen the results.
-
Believers are supposed to rely wholly upon 'faith' and it isn't "blind faith". Believers "walk by faith" and "not by sight" --- but it isn't "blind faith.
Given that it isn't "by sight", it certainly is 'blind', (despite an unfounded assertion to the contrary). It's 'blind', (irrational), because there is no rational basis for 'faith'.
"Walking by faith and not by sight" means that when a Believer hears bad news, when they see things are looking really bad, that no matter what everyone else is saying...they have a God that is BIGGER than thes circumstances and they can call on Him and know that He hears them.
That is merely circular in that it comes down to 'walking by faith is done when one has faith in what one has faith in'.
The "faith" isn't blind because any believer that has been a believer for any length of time should have a "history" of answered prayers and each one of those answered prayers becomes a "building block" which strengthens their faith. So while their faith might be "blind" to others, it surely is not to them...they've seen the results.
Any such "results" cannot be accurately attributed to "answered prayers" and therefore, there may be a history of false attributions, (which do not support the contention that 'faith isn't blind' but rather, support the counter-argument that it is blind).
-
This comes across much like the adage that "the lord helps those who help themselves", (which, on one level, means that help is allegedly forthcoming to those who don't need it and, on another level, that one who helps themselves along doesn't need a "lord").
Does it? Because I thought it was more like "God helps those that CAN'T help themselves".
Another example: Two football teams go to the SuperBowl, both sides have some players that are Believers. Those believers and all their fans (that are Believers) are praying that their team win the SuperBowl. Since God doesn't have favorites...who does God let win?
God gave those players (believers and not) their abilities and talents (again, we can argue where their abilities and talents came from: God vs. parents but they were born with their abilities and talents regardless). They are to play their best and one team will win. Usually there are players that will "thank God for the win" but God was probably just enjoying the game. It would make more sense for them to thank God for their abilities, for their strength, for their fans, etc. than "the win". God didn't perform any miracles and let any certain "special team" win.
However, a player that shatters his neck during a game and is pronounced paralyzed (that has many praying for him) and he later begins to walk...that is God helping someone that can't help himself, that is answered prayer, that is something that "glorified God" vs. just benefiting one person.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/magazine/09/12/flashback121492/index.html (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/magazine/09/12/flashback121492/index.html)
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ******
About praying for "unrealistic " things like winning the lottery:
I recently had a lady tell me she was convinced God lets certain believers that pray...win the lottery. She told me she knew a lady that bought a lottery ticket and put it in her Bible and prayed all night that night that He would let her win because she was in NEED and the next day, her numbers were picked. That is what is "mere coincidence". If she had prayed first BEFORE she bought the ticket, her heart should have told her NOT to buy the ticket. Why? Because the Bible does NOT promote gambling.
-
Believers are supposed to rely wholly upon 'faith' and it isn't "blind faith". Believers "walk by faith" and "not by sight" --- but it isn't "blind faith.
Given that it isn't "by sight", it certainly is 'blind', (despite an unfounded assertion to the contrary). It's 'blind', (irrational), because there is no rational basis for 'faith'.
"Walking by faith and not by sight" means that when a Believer hears bad news, when they see things are looking really bad, that no matter what everyone else is saying...they have a God that is BIGGER than thes circumstances and they can call on Him and know that He hears them.
That is merely circular in that it comes down to 'walking by faith is done when one has faith in what one has faith in'.
The "faith" isn't blind because any believer that has been a believer for any length of time should have a "history" of answered prayers and each one of those answered prayers becomes a "building block" which strengthens their faith. So while their faith might be "blind" to others, it surely is not to them...they've seen the results.
Any such "results" cannot be accurately attributed to "answered prayers" and therefore, there may be a history of false attributions, (which do not support the contention that 'faith isn't blind' but rather, support the counter-argument that it is blind).
Seriously falcon9...have you ever given yourself a 'headache'???
-
Seriously falcon9...have you ever given yourself a 'headache'???
No, but I have occasionally observed such a capability to induce one in another being inaccurately attributed.
-
Seriously falcon9...have you ever given yourself a 'headache'???
No, but I have occasionally observed such a capability to induce one in another being inaccurately attributed.
LOL! ;D
-
Seriously falcon9...have you ever given yourself a 'headache'???
No, but I have occasionally observed such a capability to induce one in another being inaccurately attributed.
LOL! ;D
Naturally, this applies only if the 'power' to induce headaches is externally-attributed, (rather than as an internal consequence of various other factors).
-
Seriously falcon9...have you ever given yourself a 'headache'???
No, but I have occasionally observed such a capability to induce one in another being inaccurately attributed.
LOL! ;D
Naturally, this applies only if the 'power' to induce headaches is externally-attributed, (rather than as an internal consequence of various other factors).
I've heard most headaches are caused by "tension"...you don't, by chance, tend to whip any of THAT up...do you??? ;D
-
I've heard most headaches are caused by tension...by chance, do you tend to "whip" any of THAT up??? ;D
Any tension, (or headaches), you may feel is an internal consequence of reaction. No one can 'make' you feel something, (unless they jab you with a pointy stick, for instance). Any emotional reactions are internally-generated.
-
I've heard most headaches are caused by tension...by chance, do you tend to "whip" any of THAT up??? ;D
Any tension, (or headaches), you may feel is an internal consequence of reaction. No one can 'make' you feel something, (unless they jab you with a pointy stick, for instance). Any emotional reactions are internally-generated.
Emotional reactions are internally generated and can be the result of someone else creating "tension" for them. Many people get headaches from tension from their jobs--- while their job didn't directly cause them pain---if they had had the day off, they probably wouldn't have had their tension-headache.
(p.s.-No, you haven't given me a headache...) :)
-
(p.s.-No, you haven't given me a headache...) :)
The day is still young.
-
You should NEVER pray for someone out of pity....and I think THAT is where ppl go wrong in prayer.
If you pray for someone or a situation, it should be from the heart and not made known. Everyone has their own personal relationship with GOD.
-
Everyone has their own personal relationship with GOD.
That is an incorrect assumption. There are millions of people who do not.
-
If you take a moment to pray for them while they are present then you can feel good that you followed through with your prayer and the other person knows you really care. Take a moment to pray with them at the time because let's be honest you may not remember to later on.
-
Prayer is talking to God but it has to have a purpose. When you pray for other people be sincere and mean it. If you are praying to God and are asking for something realize that he might say no. Pray to thank God not just to ask him for something. I pray for God to give me strength when I need it and I have faith that when I pray God will be with me.
-
I have found that if I tell someone I will pray for them...as soon as I'm done talking to them I've made it my practice to pray right then and there and ask God to remind me later for them. You are absolutely right, we should not tell someone we're praying for them if we aren't.
-
If someone asks me to pray for them I ALWAYS make a point to pray for them.Usually for a day or two,but always at least once!
-
I pray for people everyday, even people I don't know and have never met. We all have issues and praying for myself as well as others leave me with a wonderful feeling because I know that prayer changes things and if my prayer can assist in any way I am satisfied that i contributed to a blessing!! :angel12:
-
I pray for people everyday, even people I don't know and have never met.
How insulting to those who don't put any stock in 'prayers' for you to disregard consent. What if some satanist invoked daemons on your behalf and without your consent, are you okay with that too?
We all have issues and praying for myself as well as others leave me with a wonderful feeling because I know that prayer changes things and if my prayer can assist in any way I am satisfied that i contributed to a blessing!! :angel12:
There is exactly no valid evidence that 'prayer' changes anything, (although your admission that it make you 'feel good' and like you're 'contributing' reveals the actual purpose of such a 'magical evocation').
-
I pray for people everyday, even people I don't know and have never met.
How insulting to those who don't put any stock in 'prayers' for you to disregard consent. What if some satanist invoked daemons on your behalf and without your consent, are you okay with that too?
We all have issues and praying for myself as well as others leave me with a wonderful feeling because I know that prayer changes things and if my prayer can assist in any way I am satisfied that i contributed to a blessing!! :angel12:
There is exactly no valid evidence that 'prayer' changes anything, (although your admission that it make you 'feel good' and like you're 'contributing' reveals the actual purpose of such a 'magical evocation').
This is why I love you lol ! You have allot of patience. I am just to the point of no longer being able to tolerate the complete and utter :bs: of religion in general. I am incapable of being nice to religious people that insist on everyone else also buying into :bs:.
-
I too, when I tell someone I will pray for them, I utter a quick prayer for them, but also try to remember them when I kneel at bedtime or during the day when I feel the need to go to my Lord and just get my comfort from talking witrh Him.
-
If I tell someone I am going to pray for them, I am very careful to remember to do so even if I have to make myself a reminder. I thought it is important to keep you promise to them.
-
I pray for people everyday, even people I don't know and have never met.
How insulting to those who don't put any stock in 'prayers' for you to disregard consent. What if some satanist invoked daemons on your behalf and without your consent, are you okay with that too?
We all have issues and praying for myself as well as others leave me with a wonderful feeling because I know that prayer changes things and if my prayer can assist in any way I am satisfied that i contributed to a blessing!! :angel12:
There is exactly no valid evidence that 'prayer' changes anything, (although your admission that it make you 'feel good' and like you're 'contributing' reveals the actual purpose of such a 'magical evocation').
This is why I love you lol ! You have allot of patience. I am just to the point of no longer being able to tolerate the complete and utter :bs: of religion in general. I am incapable of being nice to religious people that insist on everyone else also buying into :bs:.
They can be extremely exasperating, popping up like weeds in the driveway of reason. Consider it a Bday gift for you.
-
This is clearly an agree to disagree topic. I do believe in the power of prayer and no one can make me think differently. We are all entitled to our own opinions and every statement in this forum discussion is an opinion. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone or impose my beliefs on anyone.
-
This is clearly an agree to disagree topic.
It isn't if at least one participant doesn't "agree to disagree" and I do not because that's a cop-out on the part of the one who wishes to make an empty declaration and then avoid backing it up.
I do believe in the power of prayer and no one can make me think differently.
Then you've implicitly declared yourself to be close-minded and taking the position of accepting such "power" sans any evidence.
We are all entitled to our own opinions and every statement in this forum discussion is an opinion.
Incorrect; not all opinions are created equally. Some have no basis whatsoever, some have a basis of pre-existing bias, (which upon further examination either has no basis itself or, isn't a 'bias' afterall). Some "opinions" do have a supportive or evidentiary basis. These are just a few of the qualitive differences between one opinion and another. They are manifestly not equivalent as "every statement in this forum is an opinion" implicitly attempts to make them. Your opinion about opinions is rejected on the basis of this refutation.
I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone or impose my beliefs on anyone.
By posting your specious religious opinions on an open, public forum you are 'inflicting' your beliefs on others, (who have the option of agreeing with them, opposing them or not responding to them). You've chosen to state such religious opinions without backing them up and I've chosen to challenge you to back them up. Of course, you aren't obligated to do so and I'm free to point out that such are then baseless opinions.
-
Falcon9 this is what your comments sound like to me
Blah, blah, blah blah blah blah!! :P
-
Falcon9 this is what your comments sound like to me
Blah, blah, blah blah blah blah!! :P
If so, you are implicitly admitting that you lack all but minimal comprehension and reasoning abilities.
-
This is why I love you lol ! You have allot of patience. I am just to the point of no longer being able to tolerate the complete and utter :bs: of religion in general. I am incapable of being nice to religious people that insist on everyone else also buying into :bs:.
They can be extremely exasperating, popping up like weeds in the driveway of reason. Consider it a Bday gift for you.
Best Birthday gift ever ! ;D
-
Here come the weeds again!!! Weeds? Why do you, Mr. Falcon9, insist on popping up in every discussion that smacks of religion. I am not in the business of proselytizing. All those who are Atheists have made that choice and I, for one, don't care one way or the other. My main concern is that you and others go on these discussions, which, of course, you will say you have a right to, but your main objective is not education or discussion, it is harassment. I am not a "martyr;" I just don't think it is necessary to slam people who have no interest in your comments.
-
Here come the weeds again!!! Weeds? Why do you, Mr. Falcon9, insist on popping up in every discussion that smacks of religion.
The "weeds" reference was to threads which either concern a religious topic, (like this thread, which I didn't start, it 'popped up like a weed'), and those discussions about other subjects into which religious concepts sprout up like weeds. Why is it that religious adherents feel it necessary to grow such weeds?
I am not in the business of proselytizing.
Yet proselytizing implicitly and insidiously occurs when proclaimations of religious 'faith' keep popping up, (even and especially in discussions which do not initially involve that topic).
My main concern is that you and others go on these discussions, which, of course, you will say you have a right to, but your main objective is not education or discussion, it is harassment.
That would be your inaccurate perception of intent, (and of effect), since I'd maintain that my intent is to counter superstitious beliefs with reason, (which does involve discussion and education to an extent, at least within the limits of the religious adherent's abilities). Of course, few religious adherents are willing to discuss their 'matters of faith' to any extensive degree, nor are they willing to be 'educated' concerning viewpoints which vary diametrically with their narrow religious ones. It isn't "harassment" to challenge specious claims, (religious or otherwise).
Falsely characterizing such challenges to unsupported opinions as "harassment" is making a false accusation and smacks of 'martyrdom', (false assumption of victimhood).
I am not a "martyr;" I just don't think it is necessary to slam people who have no interest in your comments.
Wonderful, and what of those people who have no interest in tacit religious proselytizing, manifesting in threads like this one and insidiously interjected in unrelated thread subjects? Again, characterizing challenging these religious comments as 'slamming' them is dishonest and reflects the put-upon haughtiness of the religious adherent doing so. If you choose not to engage in such discussions, don't. If you choose to do so by misrepresenting the situation, that'll be challenged as well.
-
Here come the weeds again!!! Weeds? Why do you, Mr. Falcon9, insist on popping up in every discussion that smacks of religion. I am not in the business of proselytizing. All those who are Atheists have made that choice and I, for one, don't care one way or the other. My main concern is that you and others go on these discussions, which, of course, you will say you have a right to, but your main objective is not education or discussion, it is harassment. I am not a "martyr;" I just don't think it is necessary to slam people who have no interest in your comments.
@ALL:
When one says that "atheists have made that choice" (and I've heard that MANY times so my intent isn't to "harass" the OP). What "knowledge" does anyone have that it is a choice that the "atheist" has made for their entire lifetime? I know many people that have changed their religious preferences or "non-religious preferences" as often as some people change their shirts. People change their minds all the time. I know some that "made a choice to be Christian" and when other believers "let them down"... then they "made a choice" to be agnostic, and then later they chose to "make that choice" again but to be atheist this time...who says that will be their "final" choice? (* no disrespect intended toward any party of the groups I listed and not everyone that has "made that choice" made them in that order, that was just one example).
The Bible says Jesus Himself said one is to "love God", AND "love thy neighbor as thyself"(Mark 12:30-31)...He didn't say "but if they are atheist, never mind, they made their choice". He also said "There is none other commandment greater than these". If someone really believes in Jesus then just how do they just ignore what Jesus Himself said were the two greatest commandments? John 3:16- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life'. I don't see any clause there that says "unless they are atheists, because those are exempt"...do you?
This "mind-set" that some believers have that they must treat atheists "like hell since they are going there anyway"...it's very damaging. "Once an atheist" does NOT mean "always an atheist"...but all they constantly hear is "they have made that choice". (It's ironic how believers can't comprehend how someone could be a christian and then decide to become a non-believer. It never occurs to the believer that perhaps somewhere along the way, those former christians began thinking that from what they could see in other "believer's" lives...they'd be better off without it.)
Jesus never condemned anyone to hell when that person was still alive. How does a believer REALLY think that they can ignore the second part of the GREATEST commandments (not "suggestions"...COMMANDMENTS), treat non-believers badly "because they chose to go to hell anyway" and still expect to go to Heaven?
I can't believe the number of people that get upset because their posts are "challenged". It's words...in a forum...being questioned by unbelievers. I can't help but wonder how your witnessing efforts go with questioning unbeliever's in real life. Don't you remember what it was like before you found God? Was it a Believer that was treating you like "hell" that got you interested in God? :dontknow: We're posting on Spiritual "touchy" topics . Not everyone is going to agree with you. Not everyone is going to believe you. If your post 'blesses' just one person, wasn't it worth it? Jesus was CRUCIFIED, let's keep things in perspective.
IMO, Believer's should re-read their posts before posting to a non-believer. If your post doesn't make you feel like giving them a big hug afterwards then you might want to inform Jesus of your "heart condition".
-
I didn't realize I had said all that in my post. BTW, some of my bests friends are Athiests.
-
I didn't realize I had said all that in my post. BTW, some of my bests friends are Athiests.
Somehow, that comes across in the same way as a racist claiming that some of their best friends are minorities.
-
I can't believe the number of people that get upset because their posts are "challenged". It's words...in a forum...being questioned by unbelievers.
Just as the words of 'believers' are just unsupported opinions - very often dodging any challenges to support them.
I can't help but wonder how your witnessing efforts go with questioning unbeliever's in real life.
If you are indirectly implying that at least some 'believers' are on FC to "witness", (proselytize), one aspect of my challenges are a direct response to such presumptuously disrepectful behaviour.
-
I am not a racist, and some of my best friends ARE minorities. Why does that have to be a racist statement? As a matter of fact, I am a minority.
-
I am not a racist, and some of my best friends ARE minorities. Why does that have to be a racist statement? As a matter of fact, I am a minority.
It was a parallel, not a statement linking religious beliefs with racism, (although persons of any 'race' can be racist/prejudiced, whether regarding the skintone of another or, their religious/non-religious beliefs/disbeliefs).
-
Or bigoted?
-
Or bigoted?
That depends upon context. If you're implying, (via context), that someone can be a "bigot"; a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group/individual who does not share the beliefs of the bigot, then that works both ways. Bigotry may be based on real or perceived characteristics, including religious or spiritual beliefs however, if no specific individual or group is being singled-out, it's more of a prejudice than bigotry.
For instance, my objections to religious beliefs extend to encompass any religious belief, (not just one group's). Whereas bigotry in the opposite direction, (from members of a specific religious group), is being directed mainly toward one individual, (prejudicial), and less often against a perceived 'group', (against "atheists" in general).
-
This is clearly an agree to disagree topic. I do believe in the power of prayer and no one can make me think differently. We are all entitled to our own opinions and every statement in this forum discussion is an opinion. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone or impose my beliefs on anyone.
god is some awesome father that by prayer his done alot in my life i keep praying for my family,and the world..gby
-
I didn't realize I had said all that in my post. BTW, some of my bests friends are Athiests.
I am a woman of MANY words...
AND I like to share. ;D
-
I can't help but wonder how your witnessing efforts go with questioning unbeliever's in real life.
If you are indirectly implying that at least some 'believers' are on FC to "witness", (proselytize), one aspect of my challenges are a direct response to such presumptuously disrepectful behaviour.
I wasn't "indirectly implying" anything as I have no way of knowing what anyone's intentions are for using the FC forum other than my own. I was just simply wondering how it's even possible for some of the Believers on here to even talk and "witness" to a non-believer "in the real world" if they can't manage to act with any more kindness than has been displayed here in the forums to non-believers...
-
I wasn't "indirectly implying" anything as I have no way of knowing what anyone's intentions are for using the FC forum other than my own.
From your remarks, the direct implication was/is that you perceive such religious commentary as "witnessing to non-believers". Is that correct?
I was just simply wondering how it's even possible for some of the Believers on here to even talk and "witness" to a non-believer "in the real world" if they can't manage to act with any more kindness than has been displayed here in the forums to non-believers...
Then remarks were correctly discerned and such "witnessing" constitutes proselytizing, (preaching religious beliefs). This is what my opposing viewpoints are opposing; the presumptuous arrogance of religious adherents in engaging in unsolicited "witnessing", (while hypocritically objecting to counter-arguments in opposition to such beliefs). If they are free to "witness", I'm as free to present opposing 'witnesses', (counter-arguments), without the tacit censorship attempts they're putting forward to attempt to 'silence' any opposition, (by calling it "rude", "disrepectful" and such - while their proselytizing to "rude"/"disrespectful" of the non-religious positions others hold).
-
Quote from falcon9:
Just as the words of 'believers' are just unsupported opinions - very often dodging any challenges to support them.
No believer is required to "support" or "defend" their beliefs in D&D. For them to post in here is for them to be sharing something personal in the first place. By now, I think believers know that as soon as they post something short and sweet...such as "I love Jesus" that they are going to be seeing responses back that treat them as if they are lesser beings. They'll be told how 'gullible' they are and will be made to feel like they belong in a mental institution.
I don't think they are "dodging any challenges", but rather "dodging those that are unable to see that their own opinions are 'just as unsupported' to believers".
-
I wasn't "indirectly implying" anything as I have no way of knowing what anyone's intentions are for using the FC forum other than my own.
From your remarks, the direct implication was/is that you perceive such religious commentary as "witnessing to non-believers". Is that correct?
I was just simply wondering how it's even possible for some of the Believers on here to even talk and "witness" to a non-believer "in the real world" if they can't manage to act with any more kindness than has been displayed here in the forums to non-believers...
Then remarks were correctly discerned and such "witnessing" constitutes proselytizing, (preaching religious beliefs). This is what my opposing viewpoints are opposing; the presumptuous arrogance of religious adherents in engaging in unsolicited "witnessing", (while hypocritically objecting to counter-arguments in opposition to such beliefs). If they are free to "witness", I'm as free to present opposing 'witnesses', (counter-arguments), without the tacit censorship attempts they're putting forward to attempt to 'silence' any opposition, (by calling it "rude", "disrepectful" and such - while their proselytizing to "rude"/"disrespectful" of the non-religious positions others hold).
How in the world did you come up with that from my post? :dontknow: I repeatedly said "in the real world"/"real life"---FC isn't my "real world"...is it yours?
-
No believer is required to "support" or "defend" their beliefs in D&D.
While there is no requirement for religious adherents to support or defend their specious religious beliefs on D+D, (or elsewhere), failure to do so on a debate & discussion forum indicates that they merely want to make unsupported claims. Should others want to point out that those religious claims constitute empty, (unsupported), opinions, they can accurately do so.
For them to post in here is for them to be sharing something personal in the first place.
It's the D+D and off-topic forums, not the "sharing something personal" forum. Since the D+D forum is specifically for posting contentious subject matter, they ought to know that going in instead of expecting an uncontested free-ride to proselytize.
By now, I think believers know that as soon as they post something short and sweet...such as "I love Jesus" that they are going to be seeing responses back that treat them as if they are lesser beings.
While they may occasionally get challenged on their religious declarations, such challenges are exactly that - not "treating them like lesser beings", (as that's a subjective and defensive response to being challenged, rather than responding _to_ such challenges).
They'll be told how 'gullible' they are and will be made to feel like they belong in a mental institution.
Believing something in spite of a lack of evidence is an aspect of gullibility however, that alone isn't enough for a diagnosis of a mental condition under current clinical standards.
I don't think they are "dodging any challenges", but rather "dodging those that are unable to see that their own opinions are 'just as unsupported' to believers".
That is a false contention; the reasoning behind opposing "opinions", (counter-arguments to the unsupported opinions of religious adherents), has been delineated. Whereas the most which religious adherents have come up with so far is 'they believe because they have faith and they have faith because they believe' circularity. No, they are dodging challenges to their religious beliefs because they have no valid argument for believing other than unarticulated fears.
-
I wasn't "indirectly implying" anything as I have no way of knowing what anyone's intentions are for using the FC forum other than my own.
From your remarks, the direct implication was/is that you perceive such religious commentary as "witnessing to non-believers". Is that correct?
I was just simply wondering how it's even possible for some of the Believers on here to even talk and "witness" to a non-believer "in the real world" if they can't manage to act with any more kindness than has been displayed here in the forums to non-believers...
Then remarks were correctly discerned and such "witnessing" constitutes proselytizing, (preaching religious beliefs). This is what my opposing viewpoints are opposing; the presumptuous arrogance of religious adherents in engaging in unsolicited "witnessing", (while hypocritically objecting to counter-arguments in opposition to such beliefs). If they are free to "witness", I'm as free to present opposing 'witnesses', (counter-arguments), without the tacit censorship attempts they're putting forward to attempt to 'silence' any opposition, (by calling it "rude", "disrepectful" and such - while their proselytizing to "rude"/"disrespectful" of the non-religious positions others hold).
How in the world did you come up with that from my post? :dontknow: I repeatedly said "in the real world"/"real life"---FC isn't my "real world"...is it yours?
Actually, your remarks referenced "witnessing" in both FC forums and offline. My responses concerned such activities in FC forums since I have no evidence of the same religious adherents bothering people offline with their proselytizing. Should one of them try that with me, in person, they'd enjoy the "real life" response even less than they do online.
-
Actually, your remarks referenced "witnessing" in both FC forums and offline. My responses concerned such activities in FC forums since I have no evidence of the same religious adherents bothering people offline with their proselytizing. Should one of them try that with me, in person, they'd enjoy the "real life" response even less than they do online.
I gather it's a very sensitive issue for you. Anyway, regardless of whether a person posts to "witness on purpose" or not---fact still remains that their post is a reflection of who they are, perhaps what they believe, etc. Even if their intention was not to be "purposely be witnessing"...their post is still a "witness" to who they are. Don't fret...your posts are a "witness" to who you are also. :thumbsup:
-
I gather it's a very sensitive issue for you.
Only insofar as such 'religious withnessing' is considered to be distasteful and unsolicited nonsense.
Anyway, regardless of whether a person posts to "witness on purpose" or not---fact still remains that their post is a reflection of who they are, perhaps what they believe, etc. Even if their intention was not to be "purposely be witnessing"...their post is still a "witness" to who they are.
Such "witnessing" is unnessary since they presumably know who they are and it cannot be assumed that others appreciate unsolicited "witnessing"/religious proselytizing.
Don't fret...your posts are a "witness" to who you are also. :thumbsup:
The difference being that my posts are not proselytizing some religious belief, (although they do generally promote using reasoning over superstition). The only conclusion that can be drawn from my posts would be that I'm not a superstitious person who holds specious religious beliefs. As far as 'persuading' others to be more rational, see my sig. regarding leading a horse to water.
-
While there is no requirement for religious adherents to support or defend their specious religious beliefs on D+D, (or elsewhere), failure to do so on a debate & discussion forum indicates that they merely want to make unsupported claims.
That seriously sounds like an unsupported claim to me.
Should others want to point out that those religious claims constitute empty, (unsupported), opinions, they can accurately do so.
I guess that's only fair since I just pointed out one of yours above.
It's the D+D and off-topic forums, not the "sharing something personal" forum. Since the D+D forum is specifically for posting contentious subject matter, they ought to know that going in instead of expecting an uncontested free-ride to proselytize.
A Believers relationship with God is personal. I'm not sure how things go with other religions but since other religions seem to be very quiet in the D&D, I would think it's also a personal matter with them. Some "dare to share" and then others feel free to "smack them down". And then you wonder why they "dodge"? I was just offering an explanation of why, that's all.
they ought to know that going in instead of expecting an uncontested free-ride to proselytize.
They should also know that since they believe God exists, that their reward for obedience to their Lord will be in Heaven. Also, if the Bible is true, then it says that "the unbeliever that leads others astray...will be held accountable". (Matt. 18:7)
Believing something in spite of a lack of evidence is an aspect of gullibility however, that alone isn't enough for a diagnosis of a mental condition under current clinical standards.
no kidding? That doesn't seem "odd" to you? I mean, if it's so "crazy" for people to believe in God when there is no "substantial evidence" making Him thus "imaginary" and His followers "gullible" and incapable of having any sense of reality whatsoever then...hmmm...seems strange.
Whereas the most which religious adherents have come up with so far is 'they believe because they have faith and they have faith because they believe' circularity. No, they are dodging challenges to their religious beliefs because they have no valid argument for believing other than unarticulated fears.
That's a false contention because it's only based on your assumptions rather than on any actual proof.
Such "witnessing" is unnessary since they presumably know who they are and it cannot be assumed that others appreciate unsolicited "witnessing"/religious proselytizing.
This thread is titled "Let's be Honest About Praying". It is a religious topic. If you have such an allergy to "witnessing" then why do you spend so much time in the religious threads in D&D? Merely so you can complain about the Believers in there? Or perhaps satisfy your taste for blood? If you don't like how the Believer's post or what they post...sorry. If the topic is about something "religious/spiritual", it kind of belongs to the ones that know what they are talking about because they're the ones that have personally experienced it.
Example: If a thread was entitled "Let's discuss our love of flying airplanes" and I started tossing criticism towards those that actually know what it is like to fly a plane and love it, and I was always running the topic "into the ground" or challenging every post but my own ...how long would it be before you asked me what I was doing in that thread? Wouldn't you think that those actually flying the planes would have more expertise on the subject than someone isn't into flying planes? Sure, anyone is welcome in any part of the forum to share their thoughts, opinions, sources, etc. For one to think though, that they are such an "expert" that they can "judge" without any real experience on the topic...is foolish.
The only conclusion that can be drawn from my posts would be that I'm not a superstitious person who holds specious religious beliefs. As far as 'persuading' others to be more rational, see my sig. regarding leading a horse to water.
That would be your "opinion", it's not "fact". I'm sure people have drawn many conclusions from your posts...not just one. (Likewise for everyone else that has posted anywhere on-line). You are a "witness" of whatever it is you're representing, your message comes through "loud & clear".
-
@ falcon9:
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9215/k3419965.jpg) (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3935/minjesusfacepainting.jpg)
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7027/thtoothfairytitlepsd.gif) (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4376/ks121068.jpg)
"One of these things is not like the others,
one of these things doesn't belong,
can you guess which thing is not like the others,
by the time we finish our song".
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Seriously falcon, one of those 4 pictures (above) doesn't belong with the others...do you know which one and WHY"?
(http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/384/sesamestreet.jpg)
-
While there is no requirement for religious adherents to support or defend their specious religious beliefs on D+D, (or elsewhere), failure to do so on a debate & discussion forum indicates that they merely want to make unsupported claims.
That seriously sounds like an unsupported claim to me.
Except that is is supported by numerous instances where the religious adherent spouted nonsensical claims, was challenged to support them and failed to do so by either placing the challenger on "ignore" or, simply failing to produce supporting substantiation.
Should others want to point out that those religious claims constitute empty, (unsupported), opinions, they can accurately do so.
I guess that's only fair since I just pointed out one of yours above.
Not yet; keep looking, (if searching for such instances beats having supporting your claims - it doesn't, btw).
A Believers relationship with God is personal.
Apparently not, if they feel the urge to "witness" about it publically, to uninterested others.
I'm not sure how things go with other religions but since other religions seem to be very quiet in the D&D, I would think it's also a personal matter with them. Some "dare to share" ...
Which constitutes proselytizing, (preaching, bible-thumping).
... and then others feel free to "smack them down".
If you mean challenge their unsupported and therefore empty proclaimations, then yes. Both are choices.
And then you wonder why they "dodge"? I was just offering an explanation of why, that's all.
Any 'wondering' I may do is only to the extent of discerning whether it's their fears or, general inability to respond to such challenges. Your "explanation" omits both of these aspects, (possibly due to their not considering them out of an ego-basis).
They should also know that since they believe God exists, that their reward for obedience to their Lord will be in Heaven.
There's no evidence to support such a belief, (neither for the other one implied; that they should go about annoying others with religious proselytizing because their religion encourages such horrendous behaviour).
Also, if the Bible is true, then it says that "the unbeliever that leads others astray...will be held accountable". (Matt. 18:7)
The bible-thumped reference is invalid since it is based upon a source which has no evidence of being "true", (and numerous instances of contradictory religious assertions which tend to mean the opposite of being true).
That doesn't seem "odd" to you? I mean, if it's so "crazy" for people to believe in God when there is no "substantial evidence" making Him thus "imaginary" and His followers "gullible" and incapable of having any sense of reality whatsoever then...hmmm...seems strange.
As I stated, one area of demonstrated irrationality is nominally not enough for a diagnosis of mental illness, (as far as I can determine). Should such irrationality extend into other aspects of the irrational ones' life, there may be grounds for a psychological fitness determination, (if nothing else, to assure as far as possible that such a person is neither a danger to themselves or, others). I'm not a clinical psychiatrist however, I can imagine the implications of determining that multiple millions of fundamentalist religious adherents may in fact, be nuts.
The most which religious adherents have come up with so far is 'they believe because they have faith and they have faith because they believe' in a circular manner. No, they are dodging challenges to their religious beliefs because they have no valid argument for believing other than unarticulated fears.
That's a false contention because it's only based on your assumptions rather than on any actual proof.
The evidence supporting my contention is that no valid arguments/proof has been provided by the religious adherents making their specious claims and then repeatedly failing to back them up. Should any evidence be produced, it can be examined in the light of reason, not "faith". The contention of "fears" derives from the very unwillingness of so many religious adherents to question their 'faith', (which appears to be fearful or, stemming from an inability to do so).
This thread is titled "Let's be Honest About Praying". It is a religious topic. If you have such an allergy to "witnessing" then why do you spend so much time in the religious threads in D&D?
I'm opposing specious religious claims and covert/overt proselytizing. It isn't an "allergy", it's done in order to present a pragmatic and rational viewpoint in opposition to the superstitous religious claims touted by adherents to them. That's what 'debate' is, (even if the ones making their specious claims fail to debate them).
Merely so you can complain about the Believers in there? Or perhaps satisfy your taste for blood?
Neither. It's done to oppose religious superstitions because one 'Dark Age' was quite enough.
"Religion once ruled the world. It was called the Dark Ages."
-- Ruth Green
If you don't like how the Believer's post or what they post...sorry.
If some fundie religious adherent doesn't like being challenged on their specious proclaimations - too bad.
If the topic is about something "religious/spiritual", it kind of belongs to the ones that know what they are talking about because they're the ones that have personally experienced it.
That's false 'reasoning' since it stems from a false premise. For one thing, it doesn't involve any reasoning process and for another, a topic of debate & discussion "belongs" to no one. Anyone who wants to comment, dissent, debate or discuss a topic can do so. Claiming a subject matter on the basis of inherent bias/vested interest in it is irrational. That's a false conclusion arising from a false premise.
Example: If a thread was entitled "Let's discuss our love of flying airplanes" and I started tossing criticism towards those that actually know what it is like to fly a plane and love it, and I was always running the topic "into the ground" or challenging every post but my own ...how long would it be before you asked me what I was doing in that thread?
Your assumption is false; I wouldn't ask what you were doing commenting on the thread, (attacking the challenger instead of the challenges). I'd be discussing the salient points of any criticisms you raised and either concurring or, disputing them based soley on facts. This process has not been reciprocated by the majority of religious adherents objecting to my opposing viewpoints/reasoning.
Wouldn't you think that those actually flying the planes would have more expertise on the subject than someone isn't into flying planes?
Again, it's been mentioned before that there is a qualitive difference between expressing unsupported opinions and expressing 'educated' ones, (not subjectively experiential claims as in your example concerning 'believers' - conversely, flying a plane is objectively experiential).
Sure, anyone is welcome in any part of the forum to share their thoughts, opinions, sources, etc. For one to think though, that they are such an "expert" that they can "judge" without any real experience on the topic...is foolish.
We've both no doubt come across non-religious persons who manifestly know more about a religious adherent's religion than the adherent does. That's because a skeptic will tend to look at the subject to a greater depth than someone with a vested interest in thier religious belief, (e.g., by not looking too closely or, using reasoning they can avoid any psychic trauma which may result in realizing that their 'faith' rests upon nothing at all).
What's "foolish" is taking something for granted when there is no evidence to substantiate it.
The only conclusion that can be drawn from my posts would be that I'm not a superstitious person who holds specious religious beliefs. As far as 'persuading' others to be more rational, see my sig. regarding leading a horse to water.
That would be your "opinion", it's not "fact". I'm sure people have drawn many conclusions from your posts...not just one. (Likewise for everyone else that has posted anywhere on-line). You are a "witness" of whatever it is you're representing, your message comes through "loud & clear".
In order for such an "opinion", (concerning my lack of superstitions), to be shown as non-factual, evidence would have to exist to contradict it. Similarly, the opinions considered to be "conclusions" drawn by others would have to be supported by evidence, (not subjective perceptions alone). That said, what "message" are you implying "comes through loud and clear" from my posts?
-
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9215/k3419965.jpg) (http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3935/minjesusfacepainting.jpg)
(http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/7027/thtoothfairytitlepsd.gif) (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4376/ks121068.jpg)
"One of these things is not like the others,
one of these things doesn't belong,
can you guess which thing is not like the others,
by the time we finish our song".
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"Seriously falcon, one of those 4 pictures (above) doesn't belong with the others...do you know which one and WHY"?
They all belong together as examples of beliefs which lack evidence to support them.
-
They all belong together as examples of beliefs which lack evidence to support them.
There is something that makes one alot more different than the other three...guess again...
-
There is something that makes one alot more different than the other three...guess again...
Since there's no evidence extant which supports any supernatural beliefs in "jesus", such a hypothetical personage belongs with the superstitious beliefs in the others. If the implication is anything other than 'just some guy' doesn't belong with creatures of myth, you might have something.
-
Since there's no evidence extant which supports any supernatural beliefs in "jesus",
...getting "warmer"...
I'll be back later w/more on this, so don't think I'm "dodging". I have been running on not much sleep all week and I can't believe it's 11:30 pm already...I gotta get 4 hours of sleep and get to work. :P
-
...getting "warmer"...
Don't mistake my replies for conceding to play your game; especially when you are snipping those replies to remove context.
-
...getting "warmer"...
Don't mistake my replies for conceding to play your game; especially when you are snipping those replies to remove context.
I wasn't snipping your replies "to remove context" to upset you. I believe I had mentioned that I was tired, I had 4 hours to get some sleep and needed then to get to work. I simply didn't have the time for it all. There were some things I was going to say to you in response to some of your comments...it's just a matter of me trying to find them now (and hopefully when I do, I'll not only remember what I wanted to say but will make sense when I do... *sorry I'm a little "scrambled", I've had a very stressful couple of months with the "guarantee" of a few more to come, and it just seems like there is so much to deal with that I can't stay focused on anything. Having no sleep doesn't help matters much. I'm trying...
(I'm sure you'll agree that I can be very trying...) ;D
-
When I tell someone I will pray for you, I usually do and I try to remember to keep praying for that person and whatever they need prayer for. I also ask for their prayer because prayer changes things. :)
-
Answer to "the game"...
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3935/minjesusfacepainting.jpg)
Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy have never changed the lives of ONE alcoholic, drug addict, gambling addict, or anyone else... like Jesus has.
-
PRAYER IS VITALLY IMPORTANT IN OUR LIVES TODAY,I BELIEVE EVERYONE SHOULD TAKE TIME OUT FOR PRAYER BE IT FOR YOURSELF OR SOMEONE ELSE.
-
I wasn't snipping your replies "to remove context" to upset you. I believe I had mentioned that I was tired, I had 4 hours to get some sleep and needed then to get to work. I simply didn't have the time for it all. There were some things I was going to say to you in response to some of your comments...it's just a matter of me trying to find them now (and hopefully when I do, I'll not only remember what I wanted to say but will make sense when I do... *sorry I'm a little "scrambled", I've had a very stressful couple of months with the "guarantee" of a few more to come, and it just seems like there is so much to deal with that I can't stay focused on anything. Having no sleep doesn't help matters much. I'm trying...
(I'm sure you'll agree that I can be very trying...) ;D
That's fine, no doubt everyone has varying degrees of stress at times and we do what we can. It's possible that some exasperation came through concerning another's context-snipping and my patience was finally wearing thin with the perception that was occurring again. That said, if these exchanges add to your stress, you may want to consider omitting them until they can be taken in stride.
-
I also ask for their prayer because prayer changes things. :)
What changes are you attributing to 'prayer' and why are you attributing them to it?
-
That's fine, no doubt everyone has varying degrees of stress at times and we do what we can. It's possible that some exasperation came through concerning another's context-snipping and my patience was finally wearing thin with the perception that was occurring again. That said, if these exchanges add to your stress, you may want to consider omitting them until they can be taken in stride.
No, these exchanges don't add to my stress...but thanks.
Sometimes in life we have to do things that we don't want to do at all...doctor's visits, lab work, waiting for the results...hate it! I hate the entire hospital scene, I don't have the patience for "sick time". I wish I could go to website, type in the symptoms and they could just e-mail me my diagnosis and the treatment. The first open apppointment isn't for 2 months. In the meantime, can't sleep...can't focus at work, can't remember anything, not much getting done. My friends/co-workers are all like "WHAT is going on" because they know I'm not like this. (Someone really threw a "monkey-wrench" in my plans and now my normal routine is off and I'm having a hard time functioning...that's what is really stressing me out I guess. It'll be alright.)
-
No, these exchanges don't add to my stress...but thanks.
Sometimes in life we have to do things that we don't want to do at all...doctor's visits, lab work, waiting for the results...hate it! I hate the entire hospital scene, I don't have the patience for "sick time". I wish I could go to website, type in the symptoms and they could just e-mail me my diagnosis and the treatment. The first open apppointment isn't for 2 months. In the meantime, can't sleep...can't focus at work, can't remember anything, not much getting done. My friends/co-workers are all like "WHAT is going on" because they know I'm not like this. (Someone really threw a "monkey-wrench" in my plans and now my normal routine is off and I'm having a hard time functioning...that's what is really stressing me out I guess. It'll be alright.)
If it's within the ability of the medical profession to repair, (and not just 'treat'; as it seems they are able to actually 'fix' less and less these days), no doubt they will do their best. As long as you aren't attributing your condition to such things as "satan" ...
-
Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy have never changed the lives of ONE alcoholic, drug addict, gambling addict, or anyone else... like Jesus has.
Neither has Jesus. Any addict who has been able to overcome their troubles has done so on their own merits (and/or through the help of other PEOPLE).
I'd advise against comparing Jesus to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, because you're walking yourself into a trap right there.
-
Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy have never changed the lives of ONE alcoholic, drug addict, gambling addict, or anyone else... like Jesus has.
Neither has Jesus. Any addict who has been able to overcome their troubles has done so on their own merits (and/or through the help of other PEOPLE).
I'd advise against comparing Jesus to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, because you're walking yourself into a trap right there.
Presumably, the inference was that religious adherents are erroneously attributing effects to a religious cause. This is much like attributing xmyth gifts to "santa", easter eggs to an "easter bunny" or money under a pillow to a "tooth fairy", (false attributions). When this is pointed out, many religious adherents will fall into the 'trap' of demanding negative 'proof', (e.g., 'prove it wasn't jesus'). Such a demand is a logical fallacy however, it is possible to prove that xmyth gifts aren't from "santa", eggs aren't from "bunnies" and cash-for-teeth isn't from "tooth-fairies".
-
It is possible to find multitudes of people's testimonies on the internet about how Jesus has changed their lives.
One example: Nicky Cruz's Testimony: Gang Leader Miracle
Hear the amazing story of violent New York City street gang leader Nicky Cruz and how his life was miraculously transformed by Jesus Christ. http://www.washedred.com/content/?contentID=31 (http://www.washedred.com/content/?contentID=31)
-
It is possible to find multitudes of people's testimonies on the internet about how Jesus has changed their lives.
Such testimony does not constitute evidence supporting the questionable attribution of 'changes' to a supernatural source.
One can locate hundreds of 'witness testimonies' concerning U.F.O. sightings being attributed to alien craft. This does not mean that such attributions are accurate ones.
-
It is possible to find multitudes of people's testimonies on the internet about how Jesus has changed their lives.
Such testimony does not constitute evidence supporting the questionable attribution of 'changes' to a supernatural source.
Sure it does, but how would you know since you didn't even check it out to know? (the testimony is 6:51 long, considering how fast you posted your reply...you wouldn't know.)
-
One can locate hundreds of 'witness testimonies' concerning U.F.O. sightings being attributed to alien craft. This does not mean that such attributions are accurate ones.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:52:49 pm by falcon9 »
And just they didn't personally involve you...doesn't mean they aren't. Considering how many 'witness testimonies' there are out there, I think it would be very "close minded" to just say there is no accuracy in any of them. Obviously something is going on when so many different people from all different walks of life stumble upon something so 'astounding' that it changes them forever.
-
... how would you know since you didn't even check it out to know? (the testimony is 6:51 long, considering how fast you posted your reply...you wouldn't know.)
I'd know because such "testimony" does not constitute evidence; it constitutes a de facto unsupported attribution. As the example emphasized; testimonial reports attributing U.F.O. sightings to alien spacecraft do not constitute evidence of alien spacecraft, (that takes evidence, not a 'belief' that unidentified flying objects are alien craft).
-
And just they didn't personally involve you...doesn't mean they aren't. Considering how many 'witness testimonies' there are out there, I think it would be very "close minded" to just say there is no accuracy in any of them. Obviously something is going on when so many different people from all different walks of life stumble upon something so 'astounding' that it changes them forever.
Something going on does not equate to 'U.F.O.s are alien spacecraft'. U.F.O. simply means unidentified flying object, (not 'I.A.S.': 'identified alien spacecraft'). Approximately 95% of U.F.O. investigated U.F.O. reports can be/have been attributed to other causes than alien spacecraft. This does not mean that 5% were alien craft; it means that the remaining 5% are due to unknown causes.
-
And just they didn't personally involve you...doesn't mean they aren't. Considering how many 'witness testimonies' there are out there, I think it would be very "close minded" to just say there is no accuracy in any of them. Obviously something is going on when so many different people from all different walks of life stumble upon something so 'astounding' that it changes them forever.
Something going on does not equate to 'U.F.O.s are alien spacecraft'. U.F.O. simply means unidentified flying object, (not 'I.A.S.': 'identified alien spacecraft'). Approximately 95% of U.F.O. investigated U.F.O. reports can be/have been attributed to other causes than alien spacecraft. This does not mean that 5% were alien craft; it means that the remaining 5% are due to unknown causes.
UFO's, aliens, extra terrestials, etc. I never said one had to believe every single 'witness account', as some are much more credible than others.
-
UFO's, aliens, extra terrestials, etc. I never said one had to believe every single 'witness account', as some are much more credible than others.
Which witness testimonies provided credible, (substantive), evidence that U.F.O.s were unambiguously alien in origin?
-
When I say I will pray for someone I say a quick silent prayer right then and there, I n case I forget later.
-
When I say I will pray for someone I say a quick silent prayer right then and there, I n case I forget later.
And the results of such superstitious evocations are what, exactly?
-
UFO's, aliens, extra terrestials, etc. I never said one had to believe every single 'witness account', as some are much more credible than others.
Which witness testimonies provided credible, (substantive), evidence that U.F.O.s were unambiguously alien in origin?
:binkybaby: http://www.think-aboutit.com/ufo/us_astronauts_see_ufos.htm (http://www.think-aboutit.com/ufo/us_astronauts_see_ufos.htm)
-
I just have to wonder how many of the folks who say they will carry anothers prayer, strive to carry themselves and walk a path every day that would make them worthy of such an honor as to carry said prayers or of being blessed with an audience, much less the ear, of the receiver of the prayers.
-
I just have to wonder how many of the folks who say they will carry anothers prayer, strive to carry themselves and walk a path every day that would make them worthy of such an honor as to carry said prayers or of being blessed with an audience, much less the ear, of the receiver of the prayers.
If you mean that few would be like a 'pipe carrier', I agree.
-
... how would you know since you didn't even check it out to know? (the testimony is 6:51 long, considering how fast you posted your reply...you wouldn't know.)
I'd know because such "testimony" does not constitute evidence; it constitutes a de facto unsupported attribution. As the example emphasized; testimonial reports attributing U.F.O. sightings to alien spacecraft do not constitute evidence of alien spacecraft, (that takes evidence, not a 'belief' that unidentified flying objects are alien craft).
If you had watched the clip and heard what he was saying... The life that he was living before, the person that he was before---compared to the kind of person he is now, it has been a total life changed. Only Jesus can do that.
-
:binkybaby: http://www.think-aboutit.com/ufo/us_astronauts_see_ufos.htm (http://www.think-aboutit.com/ufo/us_astronauts_see_ufos.htm)
Major Cooper also testified before the United Nations: "I believe that these extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews are visiting this planet from other planets."
He believes this however, he provides no evidence to support his contentions.
-
If you had watched the clip and heard what he was saying... The life that he was living before, the person that he was before---compared to the kind of person he is now, it has been a total life changed. Only Jesus can do that.
No, such "testimony" does not constitute evidence supporting that attribution to a supernatural cause.
-
I just have to wonder how many of the folks who say they will carry anothers prayer, strive to carry themselves and walk a path every day that would make them worthy of such an honor as to carry said prayers or of being blessed with an audience, much less the ear, of the receiver of the prayers.
If you mean that few would be like a 'pipe carrier', I agree.
No, not necessarily a Pipe Carrier. The pipe carrier would in many cases be the intercessor between the person offering the prayer and the receiver of the prayer. Which would usually mean Creator or perhaps some/an Ancestor.
The Intercessor would of course be held to a very high moral standard and be expected to adhear to certain commitments that, say again, the person offering the prayer.
But, the person being honored by being allowed to carry ones prayer should live by very high standards as well but may not be bound by some of the commitments.
Not really sure if I am demonstrating my point very well, if not give me a bit of time for reflection and I will attempt it again.
-
If you had watched the clip and heard what he was saying... The life that he was living before, the person that he was before---compared to the kind of person he is now, it has been a total life changed. Only Jesus can do that.
My life changed for the better when I started eating more salami sandwiches. I guess that was Jesus too!
Seriously though, most Atheists won't take up arms if the individual has majorly improved from a previous bad lifestyle. Though it's a false attribution, it's good that the person is doing better. However, if they attempt to spread their beliefs by using something that has no proof of being there or fails to prove that it's an accurate method of practice (ie "Works for everyone!"), that's the equivalent of a snake oil salesman technique (no matter how emotional one can get about). It is then that they should expect flak from skeptics.
-
No, not necessarily a Pipe Carrier. The pipe carrier would in many cases be the intercessor between the person offering the prayer and the receiver of the prayer. Which would usually mean Creator or perhaps some/an Ancestor.
The Intercessor would of course be held to a very high moral standard and be expected to adhear to certain commitments that, say again, the person offering the prayer.
But, the person being honored by being allowed to carry ones prayer should live by very high standards as well but may not be bound by some of the commitments.
Not really sure if I am demonstrating my point very well, if not give me a bit of time for reflection and I will attempt it again.
That's okay, I was inquiring as to whether that drew a rough parallel, (and your comments regarding intercessory prayer - praying for another), seem to qualify.
-
If you had watched the clip and heard what he was saying... The life that he was living before, the person that he was before---compared to the kind of person he is now, it has been a total life changed. Only Jesus can do that.
My life changed for the better when I started eating more salami sandwiches. I guess that was Jesus too!
Seriously though, most Atheists won't take up arms if the individual has majorly improved from a previous bad lifestyle. Though it's a false attribution, it's good that the person is doing better. However, if they attempt to spread their beliefs by using something that has no proof of being there or fails to prove that it's an accurate method of practice (ie "Works for everyone!"), that's the equivalent of a snake oil salesman technique (no matter how emotional one can get about). It is then that they should expect flak from skeptics.
I had a total life change too in 2008 when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer but Jebus didn't have any thing to do with my decisions.
-
If you had watched the clip and heard what he was saying... The life that he was living before, the person that he was before---compared to the kind of person he is now, it has been a total life changed. Only Jesus can do that.
My life changed for the better when I started eating more salami sandwiches. I guess that was Jesus too!
Seriously though, most Atheists won't take up arms if the individual has majorly improved from a previous bad lifestyle. Though it's a false attribution, it's good that the person is doing better. However, if they attempt to spread their beliefs by using something that has no proof of being there or fails to prove that it's an accurate method of practice (ie "Works for everyone!"), that's the equivalent of a snake oil salesman technique (no matter how emotional one can get about). It is then that they should expect flak from skeptics.
Well-said, this is indeed my position as well. False attributions, ('witnessing' and attributing only "positive" results to one supernatural cause while attributing any "negative" results to another supernatural cause), used to evangelize religious beliefs are inherently disingenuous.
-
I had a total life change too in 2008 when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer but Jebus didn't have any thing to do with my decisions.
There you go. Of course, you didn't say that you attributed terminal cancer to any other supernatural source either.
-
I had a total life change too in 2008 when I was diagnosed with terminal cancer but Jebus didn't have any thing to do with my decisions.
There you go. Of course, you didn't say that you attributed terminal cancer to any other supernatural source either.
Naaa, it is what it is....some things going to get you sooner or later. Is every instance demonically inspired?
-
Naaa, it is what it is....some things going to get you sooner or later. Is every instance demonically inspired?
They say that no one makes it out of this life alive, (that's hard to argue against too). As far as 'demonic' causes; that would require a belief in "demons", (which I don't have). Going by the general stance of many religious adherents, they seem to believe that 'only good comes from god and only bad comes from satan/demons'. This is a somewhat inherently contradictory stance since that same 'god' supposedly created 'satan & the demons', (which sounds like a rock band but, it was apparently forgotten that the belief is that they started out as 'angels').
-
Naaa, it is what it is....some things going to get you sooner or later. Is every instance demonically inspired?
They say that no one makes it out of this life alive, (that's hard to argue against too). As far as 'demonic' causes; that would require a belief in "demons", (which I don't have). Going by the general stance of many religious adherents, they seem to believe that 'only good comes from god and only bad comes from satan/demons'. This is a somewhat inherently contradictory stance since that same 'god' supposedly created 'satan & the demons', (which sounds like a rock band but, it was apparently forgotten that the belief is that they started out as 'angels').
My belief is that many of the best lessons come by way of the worst experiences. Perhaps they should see devils/demons as helpers....no?
-
My belief is that many of the best lessons come by way of the worst experiences. Perhaps they should see devils/demons as helpers....no?
I'd be opposed to attributing such experiences to "demonic" or 'angelic' interventions however, I would agree that one can learn more from instances where the bovine feces hits the rotary cooling device than when everything appears to be going 'swimmingly' well.
-
If you had watched the clip and heard what he was saying... The life that he was living before, the person that he was before---compared to the kind of person he is now, it has been a total life changed. Only Jesus can do that.
No, such "testimony" does not constitute evidence supporting that attribution to a supernatural cause.
What substantial evidence do you have that says it was ANYTHING else?
-
If you had watched the clip and heard what he was saying... The life that he was living before, the person that he was before---compared to the kind of person he is now, it has been a total life changed. Only Jesus can do that.
No, such "testimony" does not constitute evidence supporting that attribution to a supernatural cause.
What substantial evidence do you have that says it was ANYTHING else?
It's testimony that the witness claims to have seen something, (which isn't conclusively attributed to being an alien craft), nothing more and nothing less.
-
If you had watched the clip and heard what he was saying... The life that he was living before, the person that he was before---compared to the kind of person he is now, it has been a total life changed. Only Jesus can do that.
No, such "testimony" does not constitute evidence supporting that attribution to a supernatural cause.
What substantial evidence do you have that says it was ANYTHING else?
It's testimony that the witness claims to have seen something, (which isn't conclusively attributed to being an alien craft), nothing more and nothing less.
??? seem to have confused the "Christian" testimony with the "ufo one"...???
-
It's pretty sad when some are more willing to entertain the possibility of UFO's over God's existence. ::)
-
It's pretty sad when some are more willing to entertain the possibility of UFO's over God's existence
Which one? Yours? There's a lot of evidence to suspect that there is alien life out in the universe somewhere. Speculatively I love thinking there is, but I'm completely willing to admit I'm wrong about it. Personalized Gods though? No evidences. No proofs. And the xtian god is depicted as imperfect and malevolent to anyone who escapes the religious mindset. Speculatively, I'd hate to live in a universe with such a deity. No religious zealot is willing to admit they're wrong due to their blind faith (in which the burden of proof fallacy comes into play 95% of the time).
ADHD version- one takes the natural course, one take the supernatural course.
-
??? seem to have confused the "Christian" testimony with the "ufo one"...???
Nah, the u.f.o. witnesses sometimes have corroboration or pictures of 'something' they've seen. Such xtian false attributions are invariably to the unseen.
-
It's pretty sad when some are more willing to entertain the possibility of UFO's over God's existence. ::)
Which one? Yours? There's a lot of evidence to suspect that there is alien life out in the universe somewhere. Speculatively I love thinking there is, but I'm completely willing to admit I'm wrong about it. Personalized Gods though? No evidences. No proofs. And the xtian god is depicted as imperfect and malevolent to anyone who escapes the religious mindset. Speculatively, I'd hate to live in a universe with such a deity. No religious zealot is willing to admit they're wrong due to their blind faith (in which the burden of proof fallacy comes into play 95% of the time).
ADHD version- one takes the natural course, one take the supernatural course.
ADS version: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- A.C. Clark
This does not mean that such technology is 'magical' nor, supernatural. It means it's advanced technology, (something which would be required in order to attribute u.f.o.s to being alien spacecraft).
-
Well, there is no doubt that I believe in prayer!! I have stated this before, but I work in the adult ICU as a Respiratory Therapist and see tragedy everyday......But equally have seen the power of prayer. When you see someone die right in front of you one minute and a week later come back from a coma......you know that power of prayer is in major play!!!!!! I see miracles everyday in my line of work and thank GOD I do what I do and get to see his works!!!
-
Well, there is no doubt that I believe in prayer!! I have stated this before, but I work in the adult ICU as a Respiratory Therapist and see tragedy everyday......But equally have seen the power of prayer. When you see someone die right in front of you one minute and a week later come back from a coma......you know that power of prayer is in major play!!!!!!
A coma isn't 'death'; surely a medical respiratory therapist is trained to know the difference?
I see miracles everyday in my line of work and thank GOD I do what I do and get to see his works!!!
Perhaps it's not uncommon even for trained medical personnel to hold superstitious religious beliefs in which a hypothetical 'deity' gets credit attributed despite the lack of evidence connecting any effects to such a cause.
-
you gotta have faith on in god when you pray
-
I absolutely pray for someone if I tell them I will. I also usually light a candle and put it on my altar. I feel a responsibility to follow through if I have told someone I will keep them in my prayers. And also like you, I do it for some days (or longer if they are having surgery, in grief, etc.). At night I try to think about all the people I love and wish them well and send special prayers to anyone in need. Good topic - thanks for posting it!
-
I feel a responsibility to follow through if I have told someone I will keep them in my prayers.
Well, it isn't like promising to do yardwork or something tangible for someone because unlike 'prayers', at least they'd have their lawn mowed.
-
It is possible to find multitudes of people's testimonies on the internet about how Jesus has changed their lives.
"Despite the Bible's prohibition on magic, prayer is one of the most used forms of magic in the world. Specifically it is a form of theurgy, a type of magic which invokes the presence or actions of one or more gods. So apart from the fact that prayer is useless, it violates the laws of the Bible, meaning all good Christians should kill anyone who prays, (under the "not suffering a sorceror to live" clause)."
"On a more realistic note, prayer is a prime example of magical thinking in which a non-existing causal link is found between two unrelated events."
"There have been attempts to carry out double-blind experiments to prove the value of prayer most notably by the Templeton Foundation.[1] Not surprisingly, these have shown that prayer has no noticeable effect.[2] Indeed, in the study quoted, prayer had a small negative effect on the health of the patients prayed for.[3
[1] - http://www.templeton.org/newsroom/press_releases/060407step.html
[3] - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
--http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer
-
...it violates the laws of the Bible, meaning all good Christians should kill anyone who prays, (under the "not suffering a sorceror to live" clause)."---falcon9
That remark was extremely offensive . Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another... not just "good christians".
-
Great story showing how God 'enhances' one's life, and how to know God is to know real love.
William Murray--"My Life Without God"
In this autobiographical work William Murray exposes the bizarre dysfunctional family life that led to the removal of prayer and Bible reading from America's schools including his mother’s attempted defection to the Soviet Union in 1960 (excerpt ) http://www.religiousfreedomcoalition.org/2011/04/05/the-madalyn-murray-ohair-murder/
-
...it violates the laws of the Bible, meaning all good Christians should kill anyone who prays, (under the "not suffering a sorceror to live" clause)."---falcon9
That quote was an excerpted paraphrase from --http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer, as I quoted in my post.
That remark was extremely offensive . Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another... not just "good christians".
Your perception of the quote was taken out of the context that _all_ 'prayer', (no matter which religion's adherents are doing it or, even of no particular religion), "is a form of theurgy, a type of magic which invokes the presence or actions of one or more gods." The point being made was that your preferred source, ('bible'), promotes a hypocritical belief, (e.g., it's against 'doing magic' while encouraging theurgical magic in the form of 'prayer').
If you're going to snip context to become "offended", I can start doing the same at any time, (as well as expressing my opinion that professions of religious faith are considered to be extremely offensive to some).
-
...it violates the laws of the Bible, meaning all good Christians should kill anyone who prays, (under the "not suffering a sorceror to live" clause)."---falcon9
That quote was an excerpted paraphrase from --http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer, as I quoted in my post.
That remark was extremely offensive . Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another... not just "good christians".
Your perception of the quote was taken out of the context that _all_ 'prayer', (no matter which religion's adherents are doing it or, even of no particular religion), "is a form of theurgy, a type of magic which invokes the presence or actions of one or more gods." The point being made was that your preferred source, ('bible'), promotes a hypocritical belief, (e.g., it's against 'doing magic' while encouraging theurgical magic in the form of 'prayer').
If you're going to snip context to become "offended", I can start doing the same at any time, (as well as expressing my opinion that professions of religious faith are considered to be extremely offensive to some).
I didn't 'snip' context to become offended, re-posting someone's entire post on a continual basis is boring, a waste of time and just stupid to me, sorry. Perhaps I did take your post "out of context"...it would of helped if you had mentioned the post was an "excerpt" instead of just posting an "excerpt" and then putting a couple of numbers at the bottom that led to a source...because it made it look like the comments above it was yours and the excerpt was where the numbers where at. (Not that it matters because it is still offensive and anyone that prays no matter what their beliefs are or whom they pray to should be free to do so just as those that don't pray at all...should be free to do so.)
-
Everyone has the right to what ever they believe, so long as in practicing those beliefs they do not victimize or infringe on any one else.
No one has the right to victimize another in any way, which would of course include mental abuse caused by threats of torturous punishment for non-conformance.......or magical spells, curses blah blah blah.
-
"Someone's opinion of you does not have to become your reality."
-- Les Brown
-
That remark was extremely offensive . Most major religions involve prayer in one way or another... not just "good christians".
... anyone that prays no matter what their beliefs are or whom they pray to should be free to do so just as those that don't pray at all...should be free to do so.
That's already been stipulated before; anyone is free to 'pray' or not, which wasn't the point of contention. That point is that "prayer" is an intercessory magical invocation directed at supernatural beings and as such, is theurgy, (something proscribed against by most judeo-xtian religions and encouraged by non-xtian religions). I'm not sure how pointing this fact out can be "offensive" unless you were previously unaware of attempting to practice 'magic' by "praying".
-
well if what you say walksalone is true then christianity is illegal... because christians pray for gods will and his will is for me to burn for eternity! and the christian god gives ppl diseases so that should be illegal!
plus how could you prove black magic? you can't
so its legal
and if christians want to pray for gods will to be done and sinners to go to hell... then ppl can practice black magic and curse them whether it be a death curse or whatever... ppl could also summon demons legally to torment others
just like christians pray to their god to torment sinners!
so yes i have the right to use magic as long as i don't do any physically touch someone...
but i can use spiritual means to do that...
it wouldnt be me doing it... it would be spiritual forces!!!
just like ppl praying to a god and him intervening in their lifes
so you pray for me to live i could pray for you to die!!! and maybe it will come true but i wouldnt be arrested or charged
I said nothing about any thing being legal or illegal, I am speaking of basic morals. Anyone who would victimize anyone in anyway, whether that be in an actual assault, threats,mental abuse or conspire to abuse, IE; seek outside assistance to do the abuse in their stead, is in my opinion, morally wrong.
-
Anyone who would victimize anyone in anyway, whether that be in an actual assault, threats,mental abuse or conspire to abuse, IE; seek outside assistance to do the abuse in their stead, is in my opinion, morally wrong.
Would that include those who perform intercessory magic in the form of "prayers", either in their own behalf or on the behalf of others?
-
Anyone who would victimize anyone in anyway, whether that be in an actual assault, threats,mental abuse or conspire to abuse, IE; seek outside assistance to do the abuse in their stead, is in my opinion, morally wrong.
Would that include those who perform intercessory magic in the form of "prayers", either in their own behalf or on the behalf of others?
If that prayer was with the intent to do harm, I believe, it is in fact morally wrong.
In addition to my previous reply, in regards to legality, it is my understanding that there are in fact laws which prohibit conduct which would cause a sensible or reasonable person to perceive that they are in danger of abuse. Which could be argued, that either many religious threats of eternal torment etc may in fact be illegal, OR, that any reasonable person would not feel these threats are credible.
-
If that prayer was with the intent to do harm, I believe, it is in fact morally wrong.
So, "praying" for someone else, (intercessory magic), would be morally unacceptable if the person prayed-for either did not give their informed consent for such an intercession or, was adamently opposed to the religious beliefs upon which the 'prayer process' relies?
In addition to my previous reply, in regards to legality, it is my understanding that there are in fact laws which prohibit conduct which would cause a sensible or reasonable person to perceive that they are in danger of abuse. Which could be argued, that either many religious threats of eternal torment etc may in fact be illegal, OR, that any reasonable person would not feel these threats are credible.
One can conclude that either such "religious threats" are not credible, (and that can only be concluded if belief in such things is unreasonable), or that only unreasonable persons would perceive both the "threat" and the underlying belief for the threat as credible. Logically, there are no other alternatives in this instance.
-
We are getting into an area here that is a bit grey to me. I have personal issues with people praying on behalf of another without that persons knowledge or consent, however, if the intent of said prayer was to attempt to be beneficial to the person being prayed for, I'm not sure I would see it as morally wrong.
The rest of Falcon9's reply is exactly what I was attempting to convey.
-
We are getting into an area here that is a bit grey to me. I have personal issues with people praying on behalf of another without that persons knowledge or consent, however, if the intent of said prayer was to attempt to be beneficial to the person being prayed for, I'm not sure I would see it as morally wrong.
As to that caveat, here's the contention: the overt intention is immaterial if the covert, (or even unintentional), one involves invoking a (hypothetical) supernatural being whom even it's believers contend has it's own "will", (which is unknown to it's believers). That means such magical intercessory invocations could have unintended effects or, no effect at all. If they have no effect at all, (for believers and disbelievers alike), then surely no one could reasonable object to or, be 'offended' by "waterbearer's" "black magic" suggestion, (same thing, different aspect).
The rest of Falcon9's reply is exactly what I was attempting to convey.
'One can conclude that either such "religious threats" are not credible, (and that can only be concluded if belief in such things is unreasonable), or that only unreasonable persons would perceive both the "threat" and the underlying belief for the threat as credible. Logically, there are no other alternatives in this instance.'
-
It is my opinion, that intent, is a huge part of whether an act is right or wrong.
If in fact prayers are answered, then there is the possibility that the answer may be totally unexpected in that it may not at all resemble what "we" had in mind. This brings us into a whole new area where we should bear some responsibility for the consequences of our actions which in this case would be the act of praying.
-
It is my opinion, that intent, is a huge part of whether an act is right or wrong.
While "intent" can often be difficult to discern, (whether stated, unstated or unintended 'intent'), it remains quite possible for even overtly 'positive' intent to have 'negative' consequences.
An irresponsible camper, intending to build a fire to keep warm, unintentionally sets the forest on fire, for example. Such a pragmatic example wouldn't apply if "prayer" is ineffective, (no matter what the intent of doing such intercessory magical invocation was).
If in fact prayers are answered, then there is the possibility that the answer may be totally unexpected in that it may not at all resemble what "we" had in mind. This brings us into a whole new area where we should bear some responsibility for the consequences of our actions which in this case would be the act of praying.
The other side of that same coin is that, if prayers are unanswered either the 'deity' prayed to wants to answer and cannot, or 'he' can but does not want to. If "he" wants to but cannot "he" is impotent. If "he" can but does not want to,"he" is wicked. If "he" neither can nor wants to, then "he" is both powerless and wicked, (excepted from Epicurus).
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
I say my prayers when I lay down and try my absolute best to pray for other people that I know are struggling, I do it on the day that I hear of their issue, maybe the next 2-3 days but after that I just move on then I'll be thinking a few days later like crud, wonder how they're doing and feel bad for not continuing to pray. :wave:
Even though I don't tell anyone I'll pray for you, I do pray. I ask God to bless and look out for everyone.
-
i think you are morally wrong there walksalone...
think of this would you kill someone who raped your daughter if there was no laws or would you let them continue to go rape others and maybe even your daughter again if you knew he was going to do this?
so using evil (violence, black magic) to get rid of evil is bad?
how else can you defend yourself? because you use force against force
for example imagine someone evil is controlling the government and making everyone suffer and someone used black magic on him... would you say that person who used the black magic was morally wrong even if there intention was to make it better for everyone?
you can fight the fire with fire or let it burn you up... i'm not saying which one is right i'm asking you what you think?
What I, or anyone else may do in any given circumstance, and what is of good moral character, may or may not be the same thing.
What do I think? I think it is never "right" to kill anyone. Would I kill someone under some certain circumstances? I would.
-
Even though I don't tell anyone I'll pray for you, I do pray. I ask God to bless and look out for everyone.
Even if that's much like calling a disconnected number, (or one that was never in service in the first place)? You are as free to perform intercessory magical invocations to entreat hypothetical beings as others are to question the efficacy of doing so.
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
No, people who say this don't do it; it's just something they say to put the absolute least effort forward to pretend they're doing something about a situation. Or they say it to be a self-righteous *bleep* to people they "pity" (like atheists).
While we're being "honest" about prayer -- you can get the same results praying to a jug of milk.
Maybe atheism and agnosticism isn't for you queeny. Perhaps, might I suggest Jesus and God for you queenofnines? ;) You're just as cute as can be queen of nines :wave: Secondly, how can you tell if someone's not being honest about praying for you or not queenster? ::)
-
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. For instance, you can pray for the people in Syria and the violence to stop all you want to, but that's not going to change the fact that Pres. Assad is determined to keep killing his own people everyday. So no, you shouldn't pray for people you don't know- Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever! :thumbsup:
-
When i hear someone is in need of prayer i usually do it right then. Never put things off or it might not get done.
-
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever!
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
-
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. For instance, you can pray for the people in Syria and the violence to stop all you want to, but that's not going to change the fact that Pres. Assad is determined to keep killing his own people everyday. So no, you shouldn't pray for people you don't know- Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever! :thumbsup:
Avoiding the religious references, you surely must realize the importance of something as simple as a thought in your head. Thoughts will have an effect upon the body and through that upon ones environment.
I remember as a kid being around a nervous dog that would tend to frequently snap at me, I was told to "not show fear" as the way to avoid being bitten (by those that were also around this animal and never ever bitten). I didn't quite realize properly how to do that but I understood the general principle.
Later in life while working with horses I had one horse that would freak out when walking over a spot in some cement where the line of the form was at. Most others had no troubles leading this horse over that line (some did, though). The trainer indicated to me that I was giving indication of nervousness or tenseness to the animal unbeknownst to me. I told him I was acting the same as always but he showed me how he had no problems and explained that horses (as most animals -- including people) can pick up the subtle indications that we give off (a tightening of grip on the lead or increased tension on the lead, stiffening of the arm, subtle change in pace, turning to look at the animal or the spot, etc). He said you can try to adjust these things but often you don't realize which it is and when you try to adjust you only end up highlighting focus on them or causing something new. He taught me that the best way was to picture yourself walking the horse over the line and the horse acting fine. He said to "tell yourself the horse will walk over the line fine and without any problems" while picturing it. This had a stunning and noticeable effect and improvement was immediate (although it wasn't initially complete but noticeably better until the "freak out" sessions practically disappeared).
I also used 'visualization techniques' to improve my three point shooting from poor to where I could hit 70% or more of these shots from a set and unguarded position. I used visualization to break sticking points in weight lifting to overcome a problem with benching more than 300. I am sure others have had experience with such things.
As I mentioned, people also notice such things. I am not saying that this is the mechanism of prayer as I believe prayer has its own source, but I am sure this does lend to solutions. Whenever you focus mentally on something or visualize an outcome your body does not know the difference and works as it can to conform to this image or to accept it. Your body can even develop neuromuscular pathways as a result of simple visualization. Your brain can also be prompted to get out of the way with its doubts and uncertainties. The subject is more complex than that, of course, but the proof is evident that "thoughts in your head" do have a significant effect upon yourself and your surroundings.
-
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. For instance, you can pray for the people in Syria and the violence to stop all you want to, but that's not going to change the fact that Pres. Assad is determined to keep killing his own people everyday. So no, you shouldn't pray for people you don't know- Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever! :thumbsup:
Avoiding the religious references, you surely must realize the importance of something as simple as a thought in your head. Thoughts will have an effect upon the body and through that upon ones environment.
I remember as a kid being around a nervous dog that would tend to frequently snap at me, I was told to "not show fear" as the way to avoid being bitten (by those that were also around this animal and never ever bitten). I didn't quite realize properly how to do that but I understood the general principle.
Later in life while working with horses I had one horse that would freak out when walking over a spot in some cement where the line of the form was at. Most others had no troubles leading this horse over that line (some did, though). The trainer indicated to me that I was giving indication of nervousness or tenseness to the animal unbeknownst to me. I told him I was acting the same as always but he showed me how he had no problems and explained that horses (as most animals -- including people) can pick up the subtle indications that we give off (a tightening of grip on the lead or increased tension on the lead, stiffening of the arm, subtle change in pace, turning to look at the animal or the spot, etc). He said you can try to adjust these things but often you don't realize which it is and when you try to adjust you only end up highlighting focus on them or causing something new. He taught me that the best way was to picture yourself walking the horse over the line and the horse acting fine. He said to "tell yourself the horse will walk over the line fine and without any problems" while picturing it. This had a stunning and noticeable effect and improvement was immediate (although it wasn't initially complete but noticeably better until the "freak out" sessions practically disappeared).
I also used 'visualization techniques' to improve my three point shooting from poor to where I could hit 70% or more of these shots from a set and unguarded position. I used visualization to break sticking points in weight lifting to overcome a problem with benching more than 300. I am sure others have had experience with such things.
As I mentioned, people also notice such things. I am not saying that this is the mechanism of prayer as I believe prayer has its own source, but I am sure this does lend to solutions. Whenever you focus mentally on something or visualize an outcome your body does not know the difference and works as it can to conform to this image or to accept it. Your body can even develop neuromuscular pathways as a result of simple visualization. Your brain can also be prompted to get out of the way with its doubts and uncertainties. The subject is more complex than that, of course, but the proof is evident that "thoughts in your head" do have a significant effect upon yourself and your surroundings.
abrupt,
Without the long paragraph. Is prayer useful to you or not? :thumbsup:
-
abrupt,
Without the long paragraph. Is prayer useful to you or not? :thumbsup:
Yes.
-
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever!
Avoiding the religious references, you surely must realize the importance of something as simple as a thought in your head.
Doubtless you'd prefer to avoid religious references however, the subject matter directly regards so-called "prayer" and the inherent religious references directly pertain. With that in mind, (the use of that phrase was chosen for a purpose), the thoughts in one's head are not quite parallel to "prayer". First, "prayer" is supposedly intended to go beyond being just thoughts in someone's skull and consists of a few variants of 'intercessory ritual invocation'.
Directing an intercessory invocation to a hypothetical supernatural entity is not the same as thinking other, non-delusional thoughts.
Your brain can also be prompted to get out of the way with its doubts and uncertainties.
If that's a reference to using self-deluding religious propaganda to 'prompt' reason/rationality to "get out of the way" so that irrationality can take hold instead, no thanks.
The subject is more complex than that, of course, but the proof is evident that "thoughts in your head" do have a significant effect upon yourself and your surroundings.
Yes however, there is no evident proof that religious prayers have any effect whatsoever on one's surroundings, (and any placebo effects on one's on body/mind are not significantly-valid evidence beyond the placebo effect).
-
I definitely believe in prayer but don't think that there should be specific ways you can pray. Most people believe you should pray in one of two ways: in church or privately in a quiet room. I believe prayer can be as simple as talking aloud wherever you are. God always listens and hears everything we say.
-
I believe prayer can be as simple as talking aloud wherever you are. God always listens and hears everything we say.
This remains a "belief" and as such, has no basis in efficacy. Such "prayers" are essentially magical intercessory rituals allegedly intended to invoke a supernatural entity whose existance has no evidence.
"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson
-
Prayer is useless, an empty thought in your mind that you hope will affect something happening in this world. The truth is, you are the maker of destiny, not prayer. If you want to help someone going through hard times, just being their friend and confidant will make a difference. People who believe prayer works don't get that reguardless of what they hope for, people will do what they want, feel how they want, and make their own paths and decisions. Its selfish, because It just makes you feel better about witnessing the suffering of others, and it doesn't make any difference whatsoever!
Avoiding the religious references, you surely must realize the importance of something as simple as a thought in your head.
Doubtless you'd prefer to avoid religious references however, the subject matter directly regards so-called "prayer" and the inherent religious references directly pertain. With that in mind, (the use of that phrase was chosen for a purpose), the thoughts in one's head are not quite parallel to "prayer". First, "prayer" is supposedly intended to go beyond being just thoughts in someone's skull and consists of a few variants of 'intercessory ritual invocation'.
Directing an intercessory invocation to a hypothetical supernatural entity is not the same as thinking other, non-delusional thoughts.
Your brain can also be prompted to get out of the way with its doubts and uncertainties.
If that's a reference to using self-deluding religious propaganda to 'prompt' reason/rationality to "get out of the way" so that irrationality can take hold instead, no thanks.
The subject is more complex than that, of course, but the proof is evident that "thoughts in your head" do have a significant effect upon yourself and your surroundings.
Yes however, there is no evident proof that religious prayers have any effect whatsoever on one's surroundings, (and any placebo effects on one's on body/mind are not significantly-valid evidence beyond the placebo effect).
I avoided referencing religion so as to stick solely to elements that could be discussed in a manner that would not promote ideology. I have chosen this path recently because of statements made to me by Falconer02. This was done out of respect, but I also wish the same demands were put to you. Of course that seems to have failed, as your steadfast adherence to your venomous beliefs has prompted you to inject it into your reply to me where I avoided it altogether. Since I addressed the specific point of the efficacy of a thought in ones head and not the particulars of direct divine intercession in prayer, your reply is is nothing more than another of your attempts to troll. Your reply is without value and addresses nothing I have said. It is laden with pitiful attempts to insult and belittle and to draw my ire. I suppose you are simply begging for another spanking but I should direct you to look up a local establishment that can cater to your needs more directly. Perhaps you can request a gag ball too while you are at it.
-
I avoided referencing religion so as to stick solely to elements that could be discussed in a manner that would not promote ideology.
Then the discussion which followed had nothing to do with "prayer" and concerned the concept of 'thoughts-into-actions', sans any religious references.
I have chosen this path recently because of statements made to me by Falconer02. This was done out of respect, but I also wish the same demands were put to you. Of course that seems to have failed, as your steadfast adherence to your venomous beliefs ...
Reasoning and logic in opposition to religious beliefs are not religious beliefs themselves, "venomous" or otherwise mislabeled by a religious adherent. Others chose the form of their own replies and I'm under no obligation to comply with any religiously-based demands.
Since I addressed the specific point of the efficacy of a thought in ones head and not the particulars of direct divine intercession in prayer, your reply is is nothing more than another of your attempts to troll.
My reply was within the context of this thread and the subject of this thread, (in case you've forgotten that context). Falsely characterizing a contextual reply as 'trolling' is disingenuous of you and is a false accusation, (direct lie).
Your reply is without value and addresses nothing I have said.
On the contrary, your shallow attempts at misdirection and redefining context are hallmarks of a low-brow troll. Again, my remarks addressed your standard pattern of trying to redefine context to suit your so-called arguments. These were summarily rejected and the actual context was addressed. That context regards attempts to equate secular "thoughts" with religious "prayers" in the same manner as equating the content of arsenic with pizza on the basis of subatomic energy similarities. Essentially, a "prayer" would nominally be a subset of "thought" without any cause/effect implication other than an internal synaptic one.
Your other troll-flaming remarks were snipped as the specious twaddle of a spiteful xtian fundie.
-
I dont have specific times or days i pray i just know i have faith and believe in one god and one god only he sees me and hears me there r no rules to believing or praying etc.
-
I dont have specific times or days i pray i just know i have faith and believe in one god and one god only he sees me and hears me there r no rules to believing or praying etc.
True, there are no specific "rules" to being irrational or holding specious religious beliefs.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."
-- Albert Einstein
-
I dont have specific times or days i pray i just know i have faith and believe in one god and one god only he sees me and hears me there r no rules to believing or praying etc.
Thank you for sharing what you feel. Please don't let "anyone" deter you from what you feel, know, and believe. {{Hugs}}
-
Your other troll-flaming remarks were snipped as the specious twaddle of a spiteful xtian fundie.
And I snipped every thing you said other than this. You are the one showing the spite. Because you revealed your pathetic and dishonest nature in your pitiful attempts to debate me you now are reduced to nothing more than a trifling troll. I exposed you as the liar you are and now you can only show yourself as the troll you are. You are insignificant and of no relevance to anything. Your dialog is repetitious and entirely boring. Your method and manner are completely irrational to the position you claim to portray and you are entirely blinded by your beliefs and insecurities and mental limitations to ever recognize this. You are an irrational and biased hypocrite on a crusade that you claim is purposed to show the irrationality of the beliefs of others. That alone is hilarious and that you cannot even begin to see this is even more so. You can now only make me laugh with your stumbling -- God bless you!
-
And I snipped ...
Your lies, (fabricated nonsense), were snipped in turn, troll.
-
AMEN.....abrupt.........AMEN......Prayer is powerful....I know from experience alone...
-
AMEN.....abrupt.........AMEN......Prayer is powerful....I know from experience alone...
That's merely a knee-jerk xtian reaction which consists of hearsay in lieu of actual evidence to support the contention. Btw, "amen" is a xtian plagiarization of the original Egyptian "Amon" neteru, (or 'deity' to you).
-
If you believe in praying than it works. You have to absolutely believe in something for it to happen.
-
If you believe in praying than it works. You have to absolutely believe in something for it to happen.
I believe that you're incorrect ... did it work?
-
I believe that you're incorrect ... did it work?
--- Hey look! A turd!
Well how the heck did that get there? ---
--- I don't know, some arsehole must have come by and left it there I guess.
-
--- Hey look! A turd!
Well how the heck did that get there? ---
--- I don't know, some arsehole must have come by and left it there I guess.
This self-criticism of yours is more refreshing than your usual self-centered narcissisms.
-
AMEN.....abrupt.........AMEN......Prayer is powerful....I know from experience alone...
I have seen how powerful prayer is, too. I've experienced answers to prayers, myself. :thumbsup:
James 5:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
-
These remain unsupported, (and therefore, false), claims.
AMEN.....abrupt.........AMEN......Prayer is powerful....I know from experience alone...
I have seen how powerful prayer is, too. I've experienced answers to prayers, myself. :thumbsup:
James 5:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
-
These remain unsupported, (and therefore, false), claims.
AMEN.....abrupt.........AMEN......Prayer is powerful....I know from experience alone...
I have seen how powerful prayer is, too. I've experienced answers to prayers, myself. :thumbsup:
James 5:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
Were you there when these prayers were asked and answered? No. Do you understand, as a believer, how powerful prayer is? No. Then you are incorrect for calling them false claims. You can deem them that, since you are definitely entitled to your opinions, but unless you can say you were there and saw no proof, then what you are saying is simply an assessment, not an assertion. You have no verifiable fact that I did not receive an answer to prayer, including how it was prayed for, and how it was answered. So, with that, I refute your "false" claim and do not accept it as proof.
-
Were you there when these prayers were asked and answered? No.
Was any verifiable evidence presented to support the claim? No. Then it's an empty/false claim.
Do you understand, as a believer, how powerful prayer is? No.
"Belief", (a contention which specifically Lacks evidence), is not equivalent to a contention supported by tangible evidence rather than a specious attribution to supernatural 'causes/effects'.
... unless you can say you were there and saw no proof, then what you are saying is simply an assessment, not an assertion.
Once again, clinging irrationally to such a logical fallacy does not advance a rational refutation, (perhaps it is believed to advance an irrational one, however). To reiterate that point; you xtians are the ones making the INITIAL claim that "prayer" is in any way effective. Those who challenge such initial claims by requesting evidence to support them are not required to 'prove a negative assertion'.
You have no verifiable fact that I did not receive an answer to prayer, including how it was prayed for, and how it was answered. So, with that, I refute your "false" claim and do not accept it as proof.
Obviously, you do not have a form grasp of logic or how rational arguments work, (as shown by your use of irrational arguments and logical fallacies).
-
Were you there when these prayers were asked and answered? No.
Was any verifiable evidence presented to support the claim? No. Then it's an empty/false claim.
Do you understand, as a believer, how powerful prayer is? No.
"Belief", (a contention which specifically Lacks evidence), is not equivalent to a contention supported by tangible evidence rather than a specious attribution to supernatural 'causes/effects'.
... unless you can say you were there and saw no proof, then what you are saying is simply an assessment, not an assertion.
Once again, clinging irrationally to such a logical fallacy does not advance a rational refutation, (perhaps it is believed to advance an irrational one, however). To reiterate that point; you xtians are the ones making the INITIAL claim that "prayer" is in any way effective. Those who challenge such initial claims by requesting evidence to support them are not required to 'prove a negative assertion'.
You have no verifiable fact that I did not receive an answer to prayer, including how it was prayed for, and how it was answered. So, with that, I refute your "false" claim and do not accept it as proof.
Obviously, you do not have a form grasp of logic or how rational arguments work, (as shown by your use of irrational arguments and logical fallacies).
Your deflection isn't working on me. Since you do not have a form grasp of the power of prayer as a believer, you are trying to speak of something you are not familiar with. You are on the "outside" of things with that, and so there is no way you can, yourself, rationally argue about prayer. Unless you experience it yourself, and accept it as proof, you will never know with certainty how prayer does work. I have experienced it myself - and you can refute that all you want - it does not change the fact that I did, indeed, experience answers to prayers, especially when based upon specific requests that only He could answer. Of course, that's not proof for you, nor logical for you, because you were not there to see any of it. And as an unbeliever, you choose not to accept that. But for me, it did and does happen, and it is, indeed, logical and true.
-
Were you there when these prayers were asked and answered? No.
Was any verifiable evidence presented to support the claim? No. Then it's an empty/false claim.
Do you understand, as a believer, how powerful prayer is? No.
"Belief", (a contention which specifically Lacks evidence), is not equivalent to a contention supported by tangible evidence rather than a specious attribution to supernatural 'causes/effects'.
... unless you can say you were there and saw no proof, then what you are saying is simply an assessment, not an assertion.
Once again, clinging irrationally to such a logical fallacy does not advance a rational refutation, (perhaps it is believed to advance an irrational one, however). To reiterate that point; you xtians are the ones making the INITIAL claim that "prayer" is in any way effective. Those who challenge such initial claims by requesting evidence to support them are not required to 'prove a negative assertion'.
You have no verifiable fact that I did not receive an answer to prayer, including how it was prayed for, and how it was answered. So, with that, I refute your "false" claim and do not accept it as proof.
Obviously, you do not have any form of grasp of logic or how rational arguments work, (as shown by your use of irrational arguments and logical fallacies).
Your deflection isn't working on me.
The refutation wasn't a "deflection" since it directly refuted your logical fallacy. Conversely, your own attempts to deflect attention away from your failure to provide evidence to support your contentions/claims regarding "prayer" remain speciously-empty declarations.
You are on the "outside" of things with that, and so there is no way you can, yourself, rationally argue about prayer.
This is essentially contending that, unless one allows themselves to become mind-blinded by 'faith', one cannot determine that faith-based nonsense such as "prayer" is irrational. That's your irrational position in a literal 'nutshell'.
-
Yes, I do pray from pple when I tell them i'm going to but it's hard to keep praying from someone one day and keep praying for them because everyday we come across someone in need of prayer.
-
My only opinion on praying is that WAY to many people do most of their praying on Sunday... which is supposed to be "god"'s day off. Imagine the Monday he/she comes into the office too... lol
-
That's a tough one. I say my prayers every night and I ask for guidance and sometimes it feels like it helps and others I just throw in the towel. I'm personally on the fence about this one. I do believe in a higher power and that I will have to answer to him one day but now i just seek advice from the wise people in my life and that always helps.
-
You cant be a parasite christian.( u cant expect to get to heaven by someone else s prayers) u can only get to heaven if u pray believe repent and get baptized . Dont feel bad that u dont pray for them every day cause god knows the desires of ur heart. The thing u should be worried about is making disciples for jesus and strengthening the kingdom of god. :cat: God loves you regardless if u miss a day of prayer :D prayer is the way we talk to jesus/ god. :heart:
-
You cant be a parasite christian ... The thing u should be worried about is making disciples for jesus and strengthening the kingdom of god.
It is unreasonable to believe that evangelical xtians can use this site to proselytize without opposition to proselytizing superstitious religious beliefs. While such evangelizing is not prohibited by FC, neither are posts opposing it, (there's no 'free pass' which disallows opposition).
“You can not convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it is based on a deep-seated need to believe.”
-– Carl Sagan
-
:wave: i never say it because i did not believe it. pray all you want it does no good anyway.
-
You cant be a parasite christian ... The thing u should be worried about is making disciples for jesus and strengthening the kingdom of god.
It is unreasonable to believe that evangelical xtians can use this site to proselytize without opposition to proselytizing superstitious religious beliefs. While such evangelizing is not prohibited by FC, neither are posts opposing it, (there's no 'free pass' which disallows opposition).
“You can not convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it is based on a deep-seated need to believe.”
-– Carl Sagan
I have seen few posts that could be remotely considered as proselytizing and I would doubt you could find any to source in your claim. What I have seen, though, is your repeated attacks upon those of religious beliefs that you do not espouse. You are so intolerant of any beliefs that are not the same as yours that you would attempt to cause increased or prolonged agony and suffering upon those that you know are in need or in pain or in turmoil. This is made clearly evident in prayer requests where you feel an irrational compulsion to -- instead of offering kind words or sympathy -- cause them to dwell on the possibilities of a continued suffering. Your irrational use of ad hominem to attempt to discredit any posts or comments by those that do not share your beliefs is frequently evident -- and you do this regardless of whether the subject matter even involves religions content or not (and this act alone shows your prejudice and bias and not some simple position of 'opposition). You are so blinded by your beliefs that you cannot even see just how you actually are what you accuse others of and this is psychologically known as 'denial'.
-
I have seen few posts that could be remotely considered as proselytizing and I would doubt you could find any to source in your claim.
That's because you are blinded by your religious faith. There are literally hundreds of such religious proselytizing posts archived on FC.
You are so blinded by your beliefs ...
Only the irrational illogic of a mind-blinded religious fundie would try to redefine logic and rationality as "beliefs".
”When I point out fallacies in religious logic, adherents tell me that the human brain cannot comprehend G-d. They also tell me that G-d created the human brain. G-d is clearly inept.”
--– Matthew Benjamin Smith
-
You cant be a parasite christian ... The thing u should be worried about is making disciples for jesus and strengthening the kingdom of god.
It is unreasonable to believe that evangelical xtians can use this site to proselytize without opposition to proselytizing superstitious religious beliefs. While such evangelizing is not prohibited by FC, neither are posts opposing it, (there's no 'free pass' which disallows opposition).
“You can not convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it is based on a deep-seated need to believe.”
-– Carl Sagan
I have seen few posts that could be remotely considered as proselytizing and I would doubt you could find any to source in your claim. What I have seen, though, is your repeated attacks upon those of religious beliefs that you do not espouse. You are *so intolerant of any beliefs that are not the same as yours that you would attempt to cause increased or prolonged agony and suffering upon those that you know are in need or in pain or in turmoil. *This is made clearly evident in prayer requests where you feel an irrational compulsion to -- instead of offering kind words or sympathy -- cause them to dwell on the possibilities of a continued suffering. Your irrational use of ad hominem to attempt to discredit any posts or comments by those that do not share your beliefs is frequently evident -- and you do this regardless of whether the subject matter even involves religions content or not (and this act alone shows your prejudice and bias and not some simple position of 'opposition). You are so blinded by your beliefs that you cannot even see just how you actually are what you accuse others of and this is psychologically known as 'denial'.
The *bold/underlined parts are written by you so much better than how I could have worded them.
-
The *bold/underlined parts are written by you so much better than how I could have worded them.
Those words of his constitute falsehoods/lies since I have posted non-religious/non-prayer 'positive' suggestions along with other posts indicating a disregard for specious intercessory magical rituals, ("prayers").
-
The *bold/underlined parts are written by you so much better than how I could have worded them.
Those words of his constitute falsehoods/lies since I have posted non-religious/non-prayer 'positive' suggestions along with other posts indicating a disregard for specious intercessory magical rituals, ("prayers").
A "backhanded compliment" is no more of a compliment than your insulting (and self ascribed) backhanded sympathies would be sympathies. Are you so blind and numb to the emotional considerations of others that you cannot recognize this? Or do you consider emotion to be unimportant in the human being (even though it is the primary motivator and even initiates the logic center of the human brain)? Emotion, after all, is not logical or rational yet it is at the core of what is the human being. How can you pretend to imagine that any action you make is rational when every action you make is triggered by the irrational? How can you not realize that your obsessive hatred for Christianity is actually a manifestation of your own irrational emotions? Have you never even considered and measured your own animosity (have you even recognized it as the emotion that it is) and realized that it is exactly that "your own animosity"? I find it laughable that there are people like yourselves that pretend to be 'enlightened' and yet haven't even taken the basics steps towards understanding their own perspective and the implications of their own view having a source.
You are in many ways like a control freak, that has so much imbalance within their own life and is so impotent to address and correct their own problems that they project them upon others and then try to control and correct the actions of others.
-
The *bold/underlined parts are written by you so much better than how I could have worded them.
Thank you, perhaps I got lucky as sometimes my meaning gets obscured with my long winded nature. I think that bit was key, as it is something that he either cannot see or is in total denial of. Either way he exhibits the blindness or intentional self delusional state that he so oft accuses others of possessing. He doesn't seem to realize that he is exactly what he accuses others of being.
-
Emotion, after all, is not logical or rational yet it is at the core of what is the human being. How can you pretend to imagine that any action you make is rational when every action you make is triggered by the irrational?
I don't "pretend to imagine" any such thing. Are you finally admitting that your religious beliefs are triggered by irrational emotions and have no basis in logic whatsoever?
How can you not realize that your obsessive hatred for Christianity is actually a manifestation of your own irrational emotions?
That assumption is based upon posts made on an online forum, by an unqualified religious fundamentalist ... it can be easily disregarded as specious. Since I rarely interact with such overtly mind-blinded fundies offline, (they have the minimal sense to keep their blind faith to themselves offline - which is very revealing of xtians in an uncomplimentary way), no such "hatred" is manifested. This means it isn't obsessive or, even "hatred". Your misattributions are rejected as being mere attempts at diverting attention away from the blind faith basis of your specious religious beliefs.
If such is "triggered by your emotions", then why not embrace your irrationality instead of trying to paint a pseudo-logical veneer over illogic?
You are in many ways like a control freak, that has so much imbalance within their own life and is so impotent to address and correct their own problems that they project them upon others and then try to control and correct the actions of others.
Incorrect; I have no desire to "control" the irrationality of others. I am free to indicate it, object to it, or oppose it however. Further, I never claimed to be bereft of illogical emotions; I simply do not hold specious religious beliefs based upon them, like you do.
-
I think that bit was key, as it is something that he either cannot see or is in total denial of.
Since "that bit" was false, you appear to be admitting that your lies are "key" to your own denials.
Either way he exhibits the blindness or intentional self delusional state that he so oft accuses others of possessing. He doesn't seem to realize that he is exactly what he accuses others of being.
The simplististic "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I" argument of a child will not avail you since it does not apply to me. This repetitious pattern of yours, (fabricating accusations and then proceding as if such unsubstantiated road apples were factual), continues to serve as evidence of your self-delusions. You've demonstrated no such "blindness" on my part, (I'm well aware of emotions underlying thoughts). No "intentional self delusional state" on my part has been supported by evidence, (this is simply another of your ad hominum fabrications sans evidence). I hold no emotionally-based specious religious beliefs therefore, pointing out that you religious adherents do is not 'exactly what others are being "accused" of - it's the exact opposite. I tire of your specious lies, posted as if there were accurate representations. From this point on, your lies will be indicated and numbered for future reference.
-
If someone ask me to pray for them I do, because I know God answers prayers.
-
If someone ask me to pray for them I do, because I know God answers prayers.
No, you believe such a thing. Knowing it implies the veracity of attributable evidence, not "faith's" lack of evidence.
-
The *bold/underlined parts are written by you so much better than how I could have worded them.
Those words of his constitute falsehoods/lies since I have posted non-religious/non-prayer 'positive' suggestions along with other posts indicating a disregard for specious intercessory magical rituals, ("prayers").
Wrong. They are not "falsehoods/lies" just because you say so. That sounds like a petulant child stomping his feet, crossing his arms, and shouting out his way or the highway.
-
The *bold/underlined parts are written by you so much better than how I could have worded them.
Those words of his constitute falsehoods/lies since I have posted non-religious/non-prayer 'positive' suggestions along with other posts indicating a disregard for specious intercessory magical rituals, ("prayers").
Wrong. They are not "falsehoods/lies" just because you say so. That sounds like a petulant child stomping his feet, crossing his arms, and shouting out his way or the highway.
It isn't a matter of my just saying so; the evidence supporting my contention exists whereas no evidence supporting his contention exists, (which makes them fabrications/lies). Your self-delusions extend beyond religious considerations into an inability to discern the difference between a supported claim and an unsupported one.
-
When you tell someone I'm praying for you, or We'll pray for you, do you really do it?
No, people who say this don't do it; it's just something they say to put the absolute least effort forward to pretend they're doing something about a situation. Or they say it to be a self-righteous *bleep* to people they "pity" (like atheists).
While we're being "honest" about prayer -- you can get the same results praying to a jug of milk.
I beg to differ. I am a christian, my faith is strong.When I tell someone i'll pray for them I do. Granted, It is right thean and sometime once a week until I hear they are doing better.