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InKane

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The proof that God exists...
« on: December 24, 2009, 01:34:09 am »
...has yet to be seen. Why are these topics still here?


MorbidRaccoon

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2009, 10:22:40 am »
hahahaha xD

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 10:23:24 pm »
Does someone have proof that He doesn't exist?  

Does someone have proof there's not a pink unicorn under my bed?  How about the talking teapot in my closet?

You don't prove things don't exist.  It doesn't work that way.  The burden of proof is on those who make the positive claim.

Seriously if the best case you have for the existence of something is "you can't prove it doesn't exist," your case is horrible and an insult to human intellect.

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2009, 01:53:45 am »
Proof there IS...proof there ISN'T...it's been debated forever.  No matter how one chooses to think, one better be sure it's the right choice.  To believe/live like God DOES exist and then die and find out He doesn't exist really wouldn't be much of a problem.  To believe/live like God DOESN'T exist and then die and find out He does exist...well, wouldn't want to be in them shoes.

It doesn't make any difference.  The mathematical odds that someone who believes in no god(s) is correct are the exact same mathematical odds that someone who does believe in god(s) is correct.  There are, realistically, an infinite amount of gods that could be proposed.  The odds of you choosing the right one are ridiculously tiny.  The odds are no different for someone who doesn't believe in any gods.  There is an equal chance that either person will be correct, from a mathematical perspective.

As for your reasoning, it is the commonly used Pascal's Wager and simply has huge holes in the logic.  I'm fairly sure you could point out some of these holes as they're amazingly obvious (it's kind of shocking someone as intelligent as Pascal didn't catch them):

1)  You assume it's a 50/50 shot at being correct, when in fact (as I explained above) there could be any number of gods and they could judge based on completely different things.  For all you know, there is a being that rewards those who are skeptical/seek hard proof and punishes those who follow blindly on faith alone.  Maybe there's a god that rewards those who do cart wheels and punishes those who don't.  Maybe there's a god that rewards those who take in stray animals and punishes those who don't.  So on and so forth.  The odds that you pick the right god(s) are absolutely not a 50/50 shot.

2)  You assume any god(s) would be pleased or accept someone who believes "just in case" or just to avoid punishment.  Why would any god accept someone who "believes" just to avoid punishment?  Any god would reasonably see right through that.

3)  You assume belief is a conscious, point choice.  I'm inclined to say this is false, or at least not entirely true.  We are products of our environment.  Everything that has ever happened in your life shapes your beliefs.  You can't go back and remove certain events from your life.  They shape you regardless.

Your implication seems to be:  "What if you're wrong?"  And to you, I pose the same question:  What if you're wrong?  What if you're wrong about Allah?  What if you're wrong about Thor?  What if you're wrong about the god that rewards skepticism?  What if you're wrong about the giant spaghetti monster?

As for "not wanting to be in those shoes:"  Frankly I would much rather not spend eternity with a being that knowingly subjects its own creations to infinite punishment for a finite amount of sin.  Nor would I want to spend eternity with a being that, by the definition of omniscience, is fully knowledgeable who is going to believe/disbelieve trillions of years before that person is even born (in other words, pre-destination).  Nor would I want to spend eternity with a being that punishes people who spend their whole lives being extremely moral, charitable, helpful, etc. just because they question the being's presence.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 01:56:14 am by liljp617 »

Sohcahtoa

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2009, 02:20:31 am »
Proof there IS...proof there ISN'T...it's been debated forever.  No matter how one chooses to think, one better be sure it's the right choice.  To believe/live like God DOES exist and then die and find out He doesn't exist really wouldn't be much of a problem.  To believe/live like God DOESN'T exist and then die and find out He does exist...well, wouldn't want to be in them shoes.

This is called Pascal's Wager, and its a terrible argument, because it doesn't account for the possibility that you worshipped the wrong god.

If Islam is the "correct" religion, and you were a Christian, you're going to deal with whatever punishment the Islamic god has for you.  But if you're Islamic, and Christianity was "correct," then you're burning in hell for worshipping a false prophet.

Most religions have a clause somewhere that states that following another god is blasphemy, and you will deal with some sort of eternal punishment.  Choosing to believe in a god is no safer than choosing NOT to believe.

dougmattson

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2009, 02:37:14 am »
HE exists because everybody can't be wrong as we're celebrating his birthday today. HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2009, 03:15:24 am »
HE exists because everybody can't be wrong as we're celebrating his birthday today. HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Actually we're celebrating the festival of Saturnalia and the winter solstice, holidays hijacked by Christianity some years ago to gain more power over people.

Sohcahtoa

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2009, 07:27:52 pm »
um...

Those streaks of color are prove nothing except that religious fanatics will jump to conclusions.

A fire could have stained that glass or caused it to warp to create those streaks.

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2009, 09:40:36 pm »
50/50 odds?  Kind of like playing Russian Roulette with one's soul isn't it?

Did you try to comprehend what I said?  One of the major points I focused on was the fact that it's not a 50/50 chance...the odds are not 50/50.  The odds are much worse than that and the odds that anyone is correct in their claims on a deity are exactly the same.  I tried to make that as clear as possible.

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2009, 03:00:30 am »
yep, I comprehended what you said

I'm skeptical you really did given what you continue to post.

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it would seem there can only be 1 true GOD (regardless of what He's called), one Supreme Being and that would be what makes Him God (because the topic was on proving God's existence not that "gods" exist.)

That's a pretty mighty assumption.  The popularity of monotheistic religious beliefs is fairly 'new' relatively speaking.

But we'll run with it just for the sake of it.  So we establish there is a single god, a single ruler of all there is to rule.  The issue is still no different than it was in my previous post:  What makes you think you're doing the things that this single god rewards for? That god could reward/punish based on any criteria.  That single god could simply not abide by the concept of reward/punishment; perhaps that god is truly all forgiving and all accepting regardless of anything.  What makes you so sure that single god doesn't reward skeptical people who search for tangible or logical proof?  What makes you so sure that single god isn't a sociopath who throws everybody into eternal damnation, regardless of how they lived their life?

You can't be sure.  You're playing the odds, just as everybody else is.  The odds that you are going to be correct in your choice of what this single god wants are still infinitesimally small.  And again, these odds are the same for everybody; everybody has an equal chance of being correct no matter what they believe with respect to this single deity.  It's still not 50/50 even if there truly is just a single 'supreme being,' simply because you have no sure knowledge on how that single 'supreme being' judges.

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So I think those that feel that those kind of odds are so great that they can play Russian Roulette with their soul in the afterlife should put their "money where their mouth is" so to speak and instead of waiting ---take their odds RIGHT NOW so that others can actually enjoy their peace that comes from knowing where they will be spending eternity.

Again (and this is why I really don't think you comprehended), a non-believer is not playing Russian Roulette with their soul any more than a believer.  The odds that a believer is correct in their beliefs are EXACTLY the same as the odds that a non-believer is correct in their lack of belief.  Maybe I'll use a different word:

The odds that a believer will be wrong in their beliefs are EXACTLY the same as the odds that a non-believer will be wrong in their lack of beliefs.  In other words, the odds that you, as a believer, will be punished in the afterlife are EXACTLY the same as the odds that I, a non-believer, will be punished.  They are identical.  The same.  Not different. You don't have a better chance of being correct.  I don't know how else to spell it out.

In any case, I assume you're implying non-believers should off themselves, which really makes no sense to me.  Most non-believers don't believe in any sort of afterlife; they believe this life is all you get and you should make the most of it.  Why would they be the group to jump off a bridge?  

If anything, it's those who you say "know where they'll spend eternity" who should off themselves -- if you truly think life after death is going to be better than on Earth and you're going to heaven to receive eternal happiness why don't you speed up the process?  Why are you sticking around here when you're so sure there's something much better?

Frankly, neither group should voluntarily perish.  It's a pretty nonsensical idea all in all.

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If someone found a treasure mine LOADED full of precious gold, jewels and they knew the supply inside was UNLIMITED.  Would you keep it all to yourself?   Would you share with just family and friends?  What if your best friend was broke and having a hard time, you told them about your riches and they didn't believe you?  You gave them some bars of gold and a bag of diamonds but they won't take them because they believe they are fake.  You show them the papers where you had the items appraised but they don't believe you.  You tell them to go get the items appraised and get some food with the money before they starve to death.  They don't believe the items are real so they refuse to waste their time getting the appraisal.  Eventually, you get tired of arguing.  You KNOW you have the treasure and it's real.  The friend eventually starves to death for lack of unbelief or will go get that appraisal but ultimately, it's the friends choice.  So, that would be WHY those that believe in God "pester" and sometimes "irritate" those who don't believe.  They are trying to share the treasure they have found with a friend.....and waiting for that friend to share the treasure.

The analogy is not valid.  If you physically showed me the treasure mine full of precious metals and jewels, I would certainly believe you.  Why?  Because you provided logical, physical proof that such a treasure mine existed.  Has such an exhibit of proof been done in the case of a god(s)?  No, not at all.  What you have is a book full of stone age principles, thousands of contradictions, historical inaccuracies, and fairy tales written by people who never even met their savior first hand.  That is all the "proof" you have.

As for this being the reason people push belief:  You really think it's necessary?  It's impossible to drive down three miles of road where I live without seeing at least 4-5 churches.  It's impossible to drive through my state without seeing multiple billboards telling me I'll burn in hell if I don't repent.  It's difficult for me to walk through the downtown region of the city I live in without being preached to.  

It's as simple as this:  People know you're there.  They know where your churches are, they know where to find your information, and they know religious people are foaming at the mouth to preach away.  If people are interested, they will come to you (crazy idea, I know).  And the people who are not interested will not come to you.  So have patience.

Falconer02

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2009, 08:51:51 am »
Quote
The analogy is valid--  the friend was given the "wealth" but it was up to them to take it and do something with it for themselves.  I can show someone the proof of my "treasure" by showing them my life and living what I believe.  My faith is more than just talk, it's a "working" faith.  I can tell them about the power of prayer and the power of Jesus and what He's done in my life...and tell them if they go ask Him for an "appraisal" or a verification that He is for REAL---He WILL verify without fail. Get that treasure appraised--- If anyone wants to know if God REALLY exists...why not just go right to the source and ask Him to prove Himself to you??

No, your analogy really isn't valid. I understand you may think I'm falling into your 'appraisal failure' speech but you must understand since it simply works for you, it won't work for everyone. Especially if they try.

Put yourself in our shoes for a moment. If I came to you saying you have little sperm-like alien creatures that you cannot see attaching themselves to you and that these creatures cause you to sin and the only way to get rid of them is to be read by an strange device called an 'e-meter'...and that there were interstellar wars happening trillions of years ago by an intergalactic warlord named Xenu (scientology belief system)...I'd imagine you'd think I was nuts. But then I continued pestering you with my beliefs and showed you why it's real because it's working for me and that this is the only true way of thinking and then used your appraisal speech, you'd begin to push back and deny it since it's so fallible.

walksalone11

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2009, 03:50:57 pm »
I propose that "Gods" court operates much the same as the US justice system in that one can be found guilty and condemned for assessory to as well as after the fact.

There for seeings how we all know beyond a reasonable doubt that there has been millions upon millions of murders and other crimes against humanity committed by and in the name of Christianity, you are ALL going to hell for knowledge of, support of and enabling a terrorist organization.

Prove me wrong. :0p

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2009, 05:41:41 pm »
The analogy is valid--  the friend was given the "wealth" but it was up to them to take it and do something with it for themselves.  I can show someone the proof of my "treasure" by showing them my life and living what I believe.

You can show them the proof that you hold some belief (this isn't that extraordinary of a claim).  You can't show them the proof that what you believe physically exists.  Your life is not proof, nor is the fact that you hold a belief in this being.  That is circular reasoning.  There is no physical proof; your belief is purely faith based, by definition.

This is not the same in the treasure mine example -- in this example, you can show them the treasure physically exists.  They can hold it in their hands, they can see it, they can observe it, they can test if it's real gold/silver/whatever, etc.  This is not faith based at all.

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My faith is more than just talk, it's a "working" faith.  I can tell them about the power of prayer and the power of Jesus and what He's done in my life...and tell them if they go ask Him for an "appraisal" or a verification that He is for REAL---He WILL verify without fail. Get that treasure appraised

Again, there is no physical proof supporting what you imply are manifestations of a god/Jesus in your life.  If you pray for your life to get better and your life gets better, big deal?  If you pray to make it through the day tomorrow and you actually make it through the day, big deal?  These same exact things happened to billions of other people who didn't pray for anything.

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If anyone wants to know if God REALLY exists...why not just go right to the source and ask Him to prove Himself to you??

Oddly enough, thousands, probably millions, of people have been doing this for centuries with no success.  I, myself, was a practicing Catholic for well over half my life and don't recall any proof being shown.  I recall being told to have faith -- that's about it.  That doesn't suffice as proof.

Clearly God doesn't want to be known as he created a universe that appears to not need a creator, created life that appears not to need a creator, provided a book full of contradictions, inaccuracies, and baseless claims that surely imply it wasn't inspired by an omniscient being, etc.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 05:43:18 pm by liljp617 »

walksalone11

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2009, 07:37:59 pm »

yelenaily

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2009, 11:16:32 pm »
God exists

You're not gonna get your $3 credit like that if thats what you're trying to accomplish with these replies

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