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walksalone11

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2009, 07:14:24 am »
I propose that "Gods" court operates much the same as the US justice system in that one can be found guilty and condemned for assessory to as well as after the fact.

There for seeings how we all know beyond a reasonable doubt that there has been millions upon millions of murders and other crimes against humanity committed by and in the name of Christianity, you are ALL going to hell for knowledge of, support of and enabling a terrorist organization.

Prove me wrong. :0p
    There is no doubt in my mind that someday every single person is going to have to give an account to their Maker for everything they have done.  Those who have found God will have Jesus as their lawyer and I don't think He's ever lost a case.  
I'm not talking about ones own actions, I am talking about enabling with support for an organization that continually commits and encourages heinous acts and crimes against humanity.
Not even Jebus can lie your way out of it in front of Creator.


Falconer02

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2009, 08:31:46 am »
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Clearly God doesn't want to be known as he created a universe that appears to not need a creator, created life that appears not to need a creator, provided a book full of contradictions, inaccuracies, and baseless claims that surely imply it wasn't inspired by an omniscient being, etc.
Either Jesus was for real or He was a liar...and the BIGGEST con-artist of all time as He would have conned and is still conning people LONG after His death.

I wouldn't call your savior a con artist. If anything, I'd call him a guy who was too liberal for his time! But I will call his story an exhaggeration built up through the ages. I would also say religion is conning people that aren't getting anything out of it (ie catholics who go just to go and do traditions for no reason and get nothing out of it). You seem like a very spiritual person so I can't argue the "proof" concept since it requires physical proof.

Someone said earlier or in another thread 'The argument for religion is inherently infallible, since the basis of the argument allows the impossible'.

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archaeologists keep finding more and more proof that He did exist as well as proof that events in the Bible---even the ones many hope to be "fairy tales" actually did happen

Ugh...I have a lot of problems with this sentence. I'm going to put my foot down hard and just say no. They don't. Creationists work around them to make them sound plausable. But in the end they are fairy tales.

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Hope to see you "on the other side" but if not, the good news is you will get to live in your universe and see what a universe is really like that doesn't need a Creator.  

Do you see what you just said? You damn people. That's very cruel when people don't have the same beliefs as you. What if someone came up to you and told you "You'd better believe what I believe or else you'll be reincarnated as a rock!"?

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2009, 03:40:59 pm »
Either Jesus was for real

Quite debatable.

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or He was a liar...and the BIGGEST con-artist of all time as He would have conned and is still conning people LONG after His death.

Reasonable conclusion.  There were dozens upon dozens of people in that time period claiming to be the messiah.  There's hardly anything about the identity of this Jesus Christ that is original (almost every characteristic about him is based upon other deities of the time period).  Interestingly enough, there were dozens upon dozens of cults at the time, each with a different take on the story.  Some had Jesus as the messiah, some had John the Baptist, others had Mary, others had Peter, etc. etc.  It's pretty likely they 'evolved' and combined, so to speak, just as almost every other form of mythology in history.

There's not much outside evidence of this happening to Christianity, because the church destroyed or rewrote anything it could find to gain/maintain power, but there is tons of evidence of this happening to other religions.  There is also evidence of this in the Bible itself.  Paul mentions in one of his letters that he is writing to refute all of the other versions of Christianity that exist.  John explicitly states he's not the messiah.  Why?  As a slap in the face to the Johannine cults.  Other evidence is the various apocryphal "gospels" like Judas and Thomas, all giving alternate takes on things.

Let's have some more fun.  Let's look at the names of some main characters in the Bible:

Imagine you were making this story up, right from scratch, and you wanted to name your messiah - the living embodiment of God's determination to save humanity from Hell. What would you name him? "God will save you", perhaps? How convenient!  That's pretty much "Jesus" in Aramaic. Wow. Hey, what about the others? Like the guy who represents the Jewish betrayal of Jesus? "Judas", perhaps? The character who is the foundation on which the religion is built after Jesus ascends, "rock", perhaps, which translates to "Peter"? And so on. That's about as blatant as an English writer naming a thief "Robin."

And why would they do this?  To give more dominance to the cult that had Jesus as the messiah.

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Even after all this time, there is NO evidence that  has been found that proves He was anything contrary to what He said He was

Yet another person proposing people should try to prove a negative claim.  It doesn't work that way.  The burden of proof lies on those who make the positive claim, especially when that positive claim is such a stretch from reality.

The fact of the matter is this:  There is an incredibly tiny amount of extant evidence for Jesus Christ's existence (the gospels/writings of Paul are not evidence).  There is a passing mention in Tacitus which is known to have plenty of factual inaccuracies, a very controversial mention in Josephus which scholars believe was edited, and a few other random, non-detailed mentions amongst a couple authors.  Regardless, all of these mentions were written decades after the supposed death of Jesus Christ.  There is literally not a single first hand account of his existence.

There is an even smaller amount of extant evidence that this man was crucified.  The story as it's written in the Gospels makes zero sense at all (never mind that the Gospels contradict themselves on even the largest of details) and there isn't a single Roman document making note of such a crucifixion.  Crucifixion was a rare punishment reserved for slaves and rebels; Jesus, as he's described, was neither.  And again, we find there is not a single first hand account of the crucifixion.  The gospels aren't even a first hand account; the earliest, Mark, was written roughly 30 to 35 years after.  The rest were written well after that.

There is absolutely zero evidence of a resurrection.  Why?  Because people don't rise from the dead.  Simple.

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in fact, archaeologists keep finding more and more proof that He did exist as well as proof that events in the Bible---even the ones many hope to be "fairy tales" actually did happen.

Show some of this proof, please.  If you're saying they've found historical locations that are mentioned in the Bible, okay?  That's not a big deal; many of those places exist to this day.  If you're saying they found Noah's Ark, no they have not.  If you're saying they found evidence of a resurrection, no they didn't.

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To say God created a universe that doesn't need a creator, and created life that doesn't appear to need a creator----really?  WOW--- Take a look around at your universe

I have.  And there is a natural explanation for every occurrence we've observed.  That implies either there was no creator, or the creator made everything and put a nice spin on it that makes it seem like it needs no creator.

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the reason it's in such a MESS right now is BECAUSE God is being removed from everything.

What is in a mess?  There have been horrible economic downturns throughout all of history.  There have been much, much worse wars throughout history.  None of this is abnormal, in fact it's much better than it has been throughout history.  There is arguably a minimal amount of suffering today when compared to the past.  People are living longer on average, people are more healthy on average, we are capable of fixing so many more medical issues, etc. etc.  There is no mess; this is the cycle of mankind and it's most certainly improved over the centuries.

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You should HOPE that the Bible is 110% true because if it turns out that it is, someday you will have your wish.  God and all those who believe in Him WILL be removed from this earth.  Hope to see you "on the other side" but if not, the good news is you will get to live in your universe and see what a universe is really like that doesn't need a Creator.

Again, I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that punishes infinitely for a finite amount of sin.  I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that punishes someone infinitely even if they've led a moral, charitable life, but simply failed to get on their knees.  I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that is as conceited and jealous as this.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 03:47:26 pm by liljp617 »

walksalone11

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2009, 09:15:10 am »
You don't spend eternity with Creator anyway, you spend it with you Ancestors, duhhhh!

***silly christians***

marcar1008

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2009, 10:33:30 am »
I do beleive God exists. He is my creator. I am a Christian and I am NOT silly. God sent his only begotten son, so that everyone who beleives in him is saved and will have an eternal life. John 3:16   :notworthy: Jesus is our ancestor too  ;D son of Mary. - God and Jesus are the same person - I beleive in Trinity ! :notworthy:  :female:

walksalone11

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2009, 03:25:21 pm »

youngmarketer21

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2009, 03:28:23 pm »
u better remember to cash out on your offers before 180 days or they are reset back to zero!!

marcar1008

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2009, 03:36:23 pm »

walksalone11

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 05:50:27 pm »


Hope your popcorn is not too salty.
don't do salt....that stuff 's bad for ya.

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2009, 08:42:04 pm »
Quote from: liljp617
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Imagine you were making this story up, right from scratch, and you wanted to name your messiah - the living embodiment of God's determination to save humanity from Hell. What would you name him? "God will save you", perhaps? How convenient!  That's pretty much "Jesus" in Aramaic. Wow. Hey, what about the others? Like the guy who represents the Jewish betrayal of Jesus? "Judas", perhaps? The character who is the foundation on which the religion is built after Jesus ascends, "rock", perhaps, which translates to "Peter"? And so on. That's about as blatant as an English writer naming a thief "Robin."
And why would they do this?  To give more dominance to the cult that had Jesus as the messiah.
?: There are many instances in the Bible when GOD changed people's names to distinguish who they had become.  Many cultures put great emphasis on a name's meaning before choosing a name for their child because many people do live up to their name.

The point is that there were many cults that eventually combined and evolved to form modern Christianity.  There's a reason these names match up in the cliche ways they do -- the authors who created the names had something to gain from using such names and portraying the characters in specific ways (Jesus as "God will save you," Judas as the "Jewish betrayal," Peter as "rock," etc.).  They match up in these simple ways to cut down or increase the influence of other cults of the time period.

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Again, I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that punishes infinitely for a finite amount of sin.  I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that punishes someone infinitely even if they've led a moral, charitable life, but simply failed to get on their knees.  I have no desire to spend eternity with a being that is as conceited and jealous as this.
"Punishment"?  Is "punishment" really the correct term?  Suppose someone lived in a house and on one side a neighbor (Roger) moves in.  On the other side lives Tom.  You really wish to be friends with both of them.  You are friendly to them, you invite them to ball games and the like.   Roger turns out to be a really great friend, you know you can depend on him through good times and bad times.  Tom on the other hand never has time to talk to you, is always in a rush to get away from you, is always too busy for you and one day he just snaps and tells you to get out of his life once and for all.  The years go by and Roger is still a great friend, Tom lives his life and keeps to himself and still never gives you the time of day.  Tom gets along ok with Roger--it's you he doesn't care for.  One day, as you are busy with your life, you get a call from Tom.  He's just found out he needs a blood transfusion to save his life ASAP and he tells you that you are the only person that can help save his life---he wants you to get to the hospital NOW!  Do you drop everything that's going on in your life to rush right over and help him?  Being a decent person...one probably would.   What if instead of that instance (the transfusion ordeal) Tom was found dead in his home.  What could you do to help him now?  Nothing...because he's dead.  God will only knock at the door of someone's heart until He is told to go away so many times.  God will let a person live their life as they choose and if they want nothing to do with Him, that's the choice they made.  Time goes by and if one day someone should happen to find themselves dying and they have the time to pray and ask God to save them---He surely will.  If time completely runs out and that person dies without ever calling on God, then they are "dead" to Him...there's nothing more God can do for them.  Regardless of the kind of life they lived, they made their choice.  They didn't want to spend any of their lifetime with God so why should God expect them to want to spend eternity with Him?  God isn't going to force Himself on anyone, to force someone who doesn't believe in Him to spend a eternity with Him...it seems like THAT would be PUNISHMENT!!

Yes, punishment is the perfect term.  Sending someone to burn and be tormented for eternity is the punishment detailed in Christian doctrine for someone who denies Jesus/God.  This is elementary information of Christian dogma.

The entire point was that I could potentially live a perfectly moral life (more moral than any Christian in the world), be charitable, be forgiving, be completely non-aggressive/non-violent, etc. etc. and I would still be subjected to eternal punishment, simply because I didn't bow down and say some prayers.  In other words, I could do every single thing Christians are supposed to do except hold blind faith, and I would still be sent to a lake of fire.  Why in the world would I want to spend eternity with a being that subjects its creations to such nonsense?  

(And I won't even get into the factor of omniscience and how the mentioned doctrine is even more malicious and plain disgusting)

Isaac28

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2009, 12:46:51 am »
Ya,  we wont really know till we perish right?

liljp617

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2009, 01:31:56 pm »
I'd like to address your points, except within four sentences you directly contradicted yourself.  Never mind that what you're saying is directly contradicted by Christian doctrine.

And yet again, I have never made the factual claim that there is/are no god(s).

I enjoy the discussion and clearly others do as well.  If you don't, you can "believe what you want and move on."  I'll happily discuss it with people who wish to do so, because healthy debate is important to progression.  Refrain from assuming people want to ignore discussing a very important topic in our society just because you want to ignore it.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 01:33:27 pm by liljp617 »

InKane

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2009, 02:25:22 pm »
Wow, I've never made a topic that had enough replies for a second page! Sweeeet.

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The whole thing is you are human and he is God and you do what he says and if not then simply, GO To Hell.

Kickin' it Old Testament style, I see!

bucksmakingmama

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2009, 05:12:18 pm »
Well, I guess I'll get in on this topic. I believe God exists. I also believe in Jesus, the Bible, and all that entails. I'm am not going to try to "prove" He exists. We all have our freedom of choice and everyone is entitled to their beliefs. So...that being said....I'm going to say that I also believe that all religions (monotheistic, polytheistic and atheist and any others) have some correct ideals and some incorrect ones. I don't believe that any religion has it completely correct, regardless of what they may claim. Humans are not perfect. In that, I believe that some choices that have been made in the growth of humanity itself and the religions it contains are also imperfect, therefore corrupting all religions.

I do however believe in a "just" and "understanding" God who would take this in account. The only Bible doctrine I have ever read in the Bible so far is that one must believe in Jesus and accept him in order to "be saved". I have never found anything that states that one must do any of the other things or "rites" that are required by "religion".

eSineM

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Re: The proof that God exists...
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2009, 11:03:40 pm »
Well, I guess I'll get in on this topic. I believe God exists. I also believe in Jesus, the Bible, and all that entails. I'm am not going to try to "prove" He exists. We all have our freedom of choice and everyone is entitled to their beliefs. So...that being said....I'm going to say that I also believe that all religions (monotheistic, polytheistic and atheist and any others) have some correct ideals and some incorrect ones. I don't believe that any religion has it completely correct, regardless of what they may claim. Humans are not perfect. In that, I believe that some choices that have been made in the growth of humanity itself and the religions it contains are also imperfect, therefore corrupting all religions.

I do however believe in a "just" and "understanding" God who would take this in account. The only Bible doctrine I have ever read in the Bible so far is that one must believe in Jesus and accept him in order to "be saved". I have never found anything that states that one must do any of the other things or "rites" that are required by "religion".

Just out of curious, which bible do you believe in? Why that one in specific?

so does that mean you can accept Jesus and believe in him, and then murder etc. is ok? :)

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