I thought this was brilliant

[queenofnines]

Some background info: the following is in response to a 17-year-old guy who is in the process of deconverting from Christianity but worries his life is going to be useless and depressing without god.  You can read the full comments here: http://new.exchristian.net/2010/06/without-god-whats-point.html

"Hey Jon,
By the time I was your age I was passing bibles out downtown, my pastor let me preach, and I led prayer groups in high school. Not to toot my horn but give you an Idea of how serious I took my faith.
I was also incredibly depressed,unhappy and suicidal.. I was so militant/absolutist in my thinking, I was quickly going to a very dark place. If I was born in Islam, I would have been a suicide bomber without a doubt. When you leave christainity, it doesnt mean you are abandoning your feelings of a higher power, nor does it mean you suddenly are going to become an unethical person, not wanting to do good things.

Now years have past, and I have deprogrammed myself from the cult of christianity, and coming from the perspective of both sides I realize how ugly life was looking thru the eyes of christianity. when in reality we live in such a interesting, mysterious , beautiful world when we ceace to " spiritualize" every single thing into black/white.

Think about this christian perspective and you tell me is this is positive and good ..

1.Most every body is going to hell forever to suffer eternal pain forever and ever and ever

2.The world/universe is ugly, full of sin.

3. Satan is always wispering in your ear trying to tempt you to sin.

4.All non-christians deny the Truth and are the enemy of God

5.Natural human biological drives are sinful.

6. You are worthless worthy of eternal suffering.

7. Some people go to Hell because they think God is too loving to send people to Hell.

8. God made billions of people knowing that they will suffer eternal pain for 100,000 trillion years plus forever.

9. This Earth is soon to be destroyed,so who cares about the environment, biodiversity.. Its all piosioned with sin, its ugly. Its value is secondary. There is no inherent beauty in it.

10. Spend your entire physical existence fantasizing about how wonderful the after life will be. Learn to view your life on earth with disgust, because its all evil.

11. Demonize and dehumanize your human brothers and sisters, because they all deserve Gods eternal *bleep* death camp. Judge everything they say and do as spiritualy dead and probably evil.

12. Let your guilt consume your mind...its God talking to you.

13. always live with the realization that your never good enough for GOd.

14. who cares about science, education? Its secondary to the bible.


.......tell me John if this creates a wonderful healthy view of life and humanity?
My experiences inside christianity and outside... I know without a doubt that christians are the most unhappy depressed dysfunctional paranoid abusive culture I have ever experienced."

~ by drhomeskooled

[jordandog]

I don't think 'brilliant' can give this it's due, it's way beyond that and so truthful! It definitely applies to those of us who have seen both sides especially when many think we are all completely ignorant as to a 'christian way of life'. Thank you, tenfold, for putting this up, queenofnines. I know it will be bashed into a pulp by many, but I can still hope some will be open minded enough to look at it for what it is.

((((((((♥♥♥))))))) cyberhugs

[jordandog]

I don't have a religion. I just believe in God.

But you have still been willing to accept handouts from churches and religious organizations - you said it, not me. So, what does that make you? Seems like a hypocrite to me since you will take from those who tithe in 'God's houses', but yet claim you have no religion.

[queenofnines]

I don't think 'brilliant' can give this it's due, it's way beyond that and so truthful!

Glad you liked it!  ExChristian is a great site, you should check the rest of it out.  I have even written for it myself when I first left the fold.  

You got to do what you got to do as far as taking money or food, it is better than committing a crime!

I agree with that, but from a religious standpoint, why?  The sooner you die the sooner you get to be with Jesus, right?  I've never understood that about believers -- if y'all are so convinced you'll get heaven when you die, why artificially prolong this life?  Because you're secretly scared you might be wrong and don't want to sacrifice the only life you might get.  Saying it's because "god still has work for you" or the like is a pitiful excuse.

I don't know what religion to be there are so many, maybe I should ask God.

You better believe them all just in case.  Including the Egyptian, Greek, and Roman gods.  Hopefully the ones that say you'll burn in hell if you worship other gods don't really mean it.  

[Falconer02]

This is really great. Good find!

I know it will be bashed into a pulp by many

How?

[jordandog]

 I made that comment re the bashing more or less assuming (dangerous thing to do, I know) some believers would pick apart why the statements are so flawed. There is a lot of strong, derogatory language in them if you are a "God is all goodness and light" type of thinker.
 
 On the other hand, much of it could be used to reinforce (as if we haven't heard it enough) the idea that non-believers are doomed for just the things pointed out in it. Numbers 3, 4, and 14 are perfect examples of that! I could very well be dead wrong on the bashing. I guess we'll just have to see.

[FuzzyCottonsocks]

Some of it I can relate to and some of it makes me think 'man, what church were you going to?'  lol

[queenofnines]

I actually enjoy living that is why!

Hmm, I've seen you write things to the contrary in other threads.  I guess it just depends on the day (or mood), eh?

I am not "secretly" afraid there is no God so I need to prolong my life! Who have you been talking to? Where do you get this  ? Is this how you feel and speaking from experience?

Maybe for some people this isn't the case, but deep down, for most Christians it is correct.  It was for me, and when you have clues like rushing ambulances, people praying not to die, and folks taking full advantage of medical care, it sure makes one wonder WHY when Earth is so crappy compared to heaven.  I think churches realized people would be aware that heaven is way better and created a loophole by saying if you kill yourself, you'll go straight to hell.

[jordandog]

@marieelissa:

Why do you keep calling everyone that believes in God a Christian? That is not the only religion.

You had the nerve to ask me if I ever read the Bible and then you write this?!Christian is NOT a definition of a religion. Christian=a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, a belief that Christ was the son of God.
Yes, you have said many times, in many threads, in many posts that your (it) life 'sucks', life in general 'sucks', you can't wait to get to Heaven because it will be so much better - do I need to make it clearer for you? I don't know how else to take that and no, I did not imagine it anymore than queenofnines did when she read it.

[Cuppycake]

I don't have a religion. I just believe in God.

But you have still been willing to accept handouts from churches and religious organizations - you said it, not me. So, what does that make you? Seems like a hypocrite to me since you will take from those who tithe in 'God's houses', but yet claim you have no religion.

Believing in God is my Religion. You got to do what you got to do as far as taking money or food, it is better than committing a crime! I don't know what religion to be there are so many, maybe I should ask God.

Yes ask your imaginary friend what to do!

[jcribb16]

  I think churches realized people would be aware that heaven is way better and created a loophole by saying if you kill yourself, you'll go straight to hell.

I disagree with this.  Some people try to kill themselves and still live.  Apparently it's not their time yet.  Just because someone tries to kill her or himself doesn't mean you go straight to hell.  I've not heard of that (at least in what I know and have learned.)  How would you know it's a "loophole" in any case?

[queenofnines]

You had the nerve to ask me if I ever read the Bible and then you write this?!Christian is NOT a definition of a religion. Christian=a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ, a belief that Christ was the son of God.

A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, who Christians believe is the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, and the son of God. Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity  a description of God as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit.

The term "Christian" is also used adjectivally to describe anything associated with Christianity, or in a proverbial sense "all that is noble, and good, and Christ-like."

Thanks for defining it for us, because it's not like some of us haven't been Christians before.   

I stick to Christianity mainly because you know damn well most Americans identify with it.  But feel free to interchange your god-of-choice because they're all equally B.S. anyway.

[swogden]

I don't think the original desertation was brilliant, I think it was sad.  Who ever was lambasting him in his youth about God/Christian or otherwise certainly gave him a distorted view of the religion.

I'm Christian. Most of his statements ar just the opposite of what I believe and was taught.  But that just means my pastor came from a different school of thought. 

Hope each of us find peace in our beliefs; joy in our lives and rest in the everafter.

[queenofnines]

Some people try to kill themselves and still live.  Apparently it's not their time yet.

And I disagree with that because a lot of the time, a person might contemplate suicide but become too fearful of the act of doing it or decide they don't really want to do it.  Also you're neglecting to mention that the suicide attempts that fail are the ones that aren't guaranteed successes (like swallowing pills).  If a person puts a gun point-blank to their head, however, they're going to die (unless the gun jams, but that is very, very rare).  In any case, it takes *bleep* to follow through with a suicide because it goes against our genetic nature to survive at all costs.

Just because someone tries to kill her or himself doesn't mean you go straight to hell.  I've not heard of that (at least in what I know and have learned.)  How would you know it's a "loophole" in any case?

No they don't go to hell at all, thankfully.  But they don't go to heaven either.  As a Christian for 5 years, that's definitely something that was taught in my neighborhood.  Because think about it -- a person who commits suicide is breaking a commandment (thou shalt not kill) that they can't repent of.  And they obviously didn't truly trust Jesus as their Lord and Savior to lead their lives if they think their life is so horrible that they have to end it, which is a requirement for heaven.

As for the loophole, I think coming up with the above reasons as to why suicide is an unforgivable sin is so Christianity can cover its tracks.  It would be like a death cult if too many believers were offing themselves so they could go straight to heaven.  Ya see what I'm getting at?

True Christians will not commit suicide because True Saints do not "die in [their] sins" (John 8:21). Only "he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22). And, Murderers of Self are reserved for the Lake of Fire. "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the Second Death" (Revelation 21:. The Saints do not die in their sins because the Faithful God has already made provision for their success. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is Faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1Corinthians 10:13). For one to succeed with the sin of suicide, would be to utterly spurn the Grace of God. "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20). ~ whatsaiththescripture.com

[rwdeese]

Hey Queens,

By the time I was your age I had committed almost every immoral act on the planet. Not to toot my horn but to give you an idea how serious I took my faith.

I was incredibly depressed, unhappy and suicidal. I was militant in my attempts to convert people to the party life. I was quickly going to a very dark place.

When you leave christainity, it doesnt mean you are abandoning your feelings of a higher power, nor does it mean you suddenly are going to become an unethical person, not wanting to do good things.

This is true. When you leave Christianity, it doesn't mean you are abandoning your feelings of a higher power - you are abandoning your higher power. It doesn't mean you suddenly are going to become an unethical person - usually it takes a few years! Sure, you will want to do good things too. Your motives will just be self centered - no problem!

Now years have past, and I have deprogrammed myself from the cult of christianity, and coming from the perspective of both sides I realize how ugly life was looking thru the eyes of christianity. when in reality we live in such a interesting, mysterious , beautiful world when we ceace to " spiritualize" every single thing into black/white.

Years have passed and I have deprogrammed myself from the cult of selfism, and coming from the perspective of both sides, I realize how ugly life was looking thru the eyes of humanism. In reality, God has created such an interesting, mysterious, intriguing, beautiful world - especially when we see it through the eyes of the creator!

Think about this christian perspective and you tell me is this is positive and good ..

Think about the humanistic perspective and you tell me is this a positive and good...

1.Most every body is going to hell forever to suffer eternal pain forever and ever and ever

Everyone is going to cease to exist. No hope for a future!

2.The world/universe is ugly, full of sin.

Self Deception: "The world has no problems, and everyone is good!"

3. Satan is always wispering in your ear trying to tempt you to sin.

God is always whispering in your ears, showering you with grace, mercy and beauty.

4.All non-christians deny the Truth and are the enemy of God

All believers are intolerant. We should rid the world of them.

5.Natural human biological drives are sinful.

Self Deception: If everyone was allowed to do exactly what their biological drives (which is defined individually since there are no absolutes), pointed, pain, heartache, death, and crime would be rampant.

6. You are worthless worthy of eternal suffering.

Since there are no absolutes, everyone is ok, so eliminate all discipline and punishment. Allow everyone to do exactly what they please!

7. Some people go to Hell because they think God is too loving to send people to Hell.

People only get to live 70 or so years, and it is over!

8. God made billions of people knowing that they will suffer eternal pain for 100,000 trillion years plus forever.

Babies are worthless, so abort them.

9. This Earth is soon to be destroyed,so who cares about the environment, biodiversity.. Its all piosioned with sin, its ugly. Its value is secondary. There is no inherent beauty in it.

Make the earth your new God. It will take care of you.

10. Spend your entire physical existence fantasizing about how wonderful the after life will be. Learn to view your life on earth with disgust, because its all evil.

Spend all your life centered on your own desires - you are the only one that matters

11. Demonize and dehumanize your human brothers and sisters, because they all deserve Gods eternal *bleep* death camp. Judge everything they say and do as spiritualy dead and probably evil.

Demonize Christians because they may interfere with the position of no absolutes. Be tolerant of everyone but Christians.

12. Let your guilt consume your mind...its God talking to you.

Hide from your guilt. Imagine it doesn't exist! Cloak it with your behavior.

13. always live with the realization that your never good enough for GOd.

Imagine you are so good you need no one.

14. who cares about science, education? Its secondary to the bible.

Who cares about real science, deception, and dumbing down of the public. Believe everything that is taught to you.

.......tell me John if this creates a wonderful healthy view of life and humanity?
My experiences inside christianity and outside... I know without a doubt that christians are the most unhappy depressed dysfunctional paranoid abusive culture I have ever experienced."

Tell me Queens, who determines healthy - are there then absolutes?

My professional counseling experience outside of Christianity tells me that the most unhappy, depressed, dysfunctional, paranoid, abusive, confused, and hurting people are those who have left God. In their attempts to cloak their guilt, they are forced into all kinds of behavior that feeds their guilt to the point of desperation.

You may fool some people on this board, but in my over 50 years of experience, I know what rebellion causes in the hearts of people

BTW, have a great day. God still loves you!