The Bible as Truth?

[queenofnines]

He made the universe subject to physical laws and by these physical laws natural disasters occur

But see, believers can't prove god is behind the natural laws.  They merely assume he is.  It seems quite odd that humans have the means to discover how the world really works, how it could all be possible naturally and without a god.  If there WERE a god, why would he need to rely on physical laws at all?  Why wouldn't the world run by magic instead?  Why would he need our bodies to look and run like survival machines; couldn't they run by magic instead?  That may sound silly to people who read this, but think about it.  I'd be a lot more convinced of there being a god if we didn't have scientific explanations for how everything works/was formed.

Indeed, Sam Harris points out that concepts such as the virgin birth, talking snake, walking on water, being swallowed by a giant fish, the dead being resurrected, etc. - these types of events all DEFY scientific laws and everything we know to be true about the universe.  Science would be RIDICULOUS if religion were true: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge2PYWjln0E&videos=NXGZ-Sh2gXY

Are you going to be compassionate enough to adopt one or more of them to keep them from suffering through "the one life they have?"

I don't know why this argument is being pointed back at me.  What I was trying to say is couldn't god seek out the GOOD people who are willing to care for orphans and make it happen?  Obviously he can't, as you said - 130+ million orphans in the world today.  

the woman named Kelly said (and I quote) "I would rather go to hell than go to heaven and worship a megalomaniacal tyrant.

What most atheists mean when they say that is we'd be very surprised if such a fate turned out to be true because it seems pretty unlikely that it is.  And yeah, I'd be pretty mad if I found out the world and my life was nothing but a sick cosmic joke.  But what makes you so confident that it isn't the Muslims (or Hindus or Taoists or ancient Greeks) who have the correct god?

Hell is not a flaw of God it is a place He will send people who reject Christ. Not people who are bad because we are all bad in the sense that we all sin....hell isn't a place for sinners, it is for people who reject Christ.

And do YOU think that's fair?  What's the point of torturing me forever, eh?  There's no mercy in allowing the majority of your supposed children to be in pain forever, sorry.  It makes me really sad that Christians think this is A-okay.

Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature.

No, I can't.  I'm not one of those people who is satisfied by looking at a newborn baby and saying, "See?  God's love/god did it!"  I want to know where babies REALLY come from.  lol

Even more stringent are the initial conditions of the universe, since even minor deviations would have completely disrupted the process. For example, adding a grain of sand to the weight of the universe now would have no effect. However, adding even this small amount of weight at the beginning of the universe would have resulted in its collapse early in its history.

In February 2007, I can remember saying to an atheist friend: "Just look at how perfect Earth is for us!  Kinda funny how we're the only ones like us, eh, eh?"

What he said next changed my life forever:

"Out of billions upon billions of galaxies, it's not unlikely that ours (and several others like ours) could have arose."

Such a statement was the last kick in the pants I needed to investigate the evidence for/against god.

Evolutionary Scientists try to explain the origin of life and the universe by the most difficult calculations and the most complicated theories....you used the term Occams Razor....I'll use it here.  The simplest solution the design vs evolution theory is....design.

I'm no scientist, but from what I've heard, life started out very simple and gradually became more complex.  Atheists claim Occam's Razor because inserting a magical sky being who can break the laws of physics at whim is NOT the simplest explanation!

Well, of course it is probably pointless to mention that there is approximately 2.1 billion confessed christians in the world and the United States being one of the countries with the most christians??

Why aren't Mexico, South America, or parts of Africa fairing as well then?  It isn't religion that makes this country great -- quite the opposite, actually.  It's our SECULAR government that takes all the credit; it's our guaranteed FREEDOMS that so many other countries lack.  And China is totally set to kick our *bleep* in a few years; there aren't many Christians there.  

To say America is a "Christian" nation is to also say that we are a WHITE and FEMALE nation.  Majority rules, I guess!

[tantricia44]

Tantricia--

Ok, that was awesome.  This is my favorite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM

Yeah I love that one too.

In case you're interested...this is what I'm talking about in reference to the origin of the name "Jehovah."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uYWtBb01G0&feature=PlayList&p=D3B9B2D6788E5F28&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=69

I put this on my favorites bar and will check it out soon. Cool find.

Falconer02~ thank the higher powers, the aliens have spared our puny planet because they did find intelligent life!  the bible warning/disclaimer totally fantastic!!!! Bible rating XXX
F02, the FORCE is with YOU.....ALWAYS! 

[tantricia44]

When it comes to the bible I feel it is a story..Truth well I really cannot believe that..I consider myself no religion.
Atheists views make sense,Wicca makes sense..Other than that other religions seem very umm..wishy washy..
I believe love all gay,straight,blah blah blah..So sins make no sense to me cause no one is free from sin..
Everyone thinks of something sinful or has done something deemed as sinful..
Sorry got lost lmao..So no Bible is no truth to me its a story a man on some mind altering drugs started and a imperfect closed minded person finished.

Bfwings~there is intelligent life on this planet! Wicca makes more sense because the focus is on nature & harming none. If there is a higher power out there, it would be something that is kind. Something that will allow us to grow & evolve. Not something we worship due to fear & punishment if we don't fall in line with the masses.  Sign: a recovering X-catholic

[queenofnines]

You want to find out if the Devil is real? Go into a dark room and sit in the middle of the floor and summon him! Good Luck

Yes, because that will work just as well as it did when I was 8.


Sherna, hon, that godandscience site in particular - it really bothers me.  It is quite slick; I could see how it would be convincing to a believer who is trying to look for "better, more scientific" reasons to believe in god.  It has an "answer" to just about anything an atheist would bring up that sure sounds good if you only take it at face value!  Given that I'm not in that mindset anymore, I can read its claims objectively, and I'm routinely finding contradictions, propaganda, bad information, and misinformation.  In anything you read, it is best to critically examine it: does what I'm reading hold up to reality?  Does this answer really satisfy the issue?  Do I still have questions or objections with this website's "explanations"?

[shernajwine]

Sherna, hon, that godandscience site in particular - it really bothers me.  It is quite slick; I could see how it would be convincing to a believer who is trying to look for "better, more scientific" reasons to believe in god

I could see how it would bother someone who doesn't want to be confronted with truth 
I want to give you a virtual hug (((((((((((((queen))))))))))))))))
Just cause I love you and I can't hug you for real.

I think I'm going to call a truce for the moment because I should only reply to yours or others posts (in regards to this topic of debate) when I feel the spirit is leading me and I don't feel it leading me right now but I didn't want you to think I retreated in the corner sucking my thumb lol.

I said before that I am confidant about the truth based on more than my knowledge. I won't try to explain it here because it's not up for debate for people to tear to shreds.
Maybe God will have me share at a later time, maybe not I don't know. My knowledge is ever increasing from your camp (as you like to say lol) and from mine. For that I am completely blessed to have had all my beliefs thrown into a free for all attack! No hard feelings here but genuine thankfulness that you don't give up easily!!! 

Believe it or not as a christian I asked nearly all the things you have brought out here and I had no answer. I nearly completely rejected God for a long time (I say nearly completely because I didn't go ALL atheist, I never came to the point where I believed God doesn't exist but I seriously questioned His character and the myriad of things I didn't understand...so I'm not completely alien to an atheists or agnostics doubts about God)

[amyrouse]

I don't put the "o" in g-d because my faith teaches that to know someone's name is to know them on a personal level, and we cannot possibly know g-d on that level.  There are over 70 different ways of calling g-d, but we do not know g-d's name except for imperfect translations.  It's just another symbol of my not knowing g-d as I know others, like friends, relatives, and even acquaintances.  

My saying I don't know who is right doesn't make me a doubter or a hypocrite or a walking contradiction; it just makes me honest.  I feel like I've got the right path, but to be fair, I always say I could be wrong.  My faith fits me better than my underwear, and I am proud of it, but I won't discount or discredit another who feels the same way (including those who have no faith).  I believe religion is a very personal thing, and I believe it would be wrong of me to tell another that what they believe is wrong, especially if they believe as strongly as I do.  I am not a doubter.  I am a thinker, and I don't proselytize.  I encourage people to think.  There is a difference.

I also have a sense of humor, and I believe g-d does, too.  Honestly...take a look at the residents (human, animal, mineral) and tell me with a straight face that g-d doesn't have a sense of humor.  Better yet, check out www.peopleatwalmart.com.

I am highly intrigued and amused by the comments I've been reading about the deaths of the children, and whether they could be adopted or be cruelly left parent-less...these children who would be better off dead than they would without their parents...what about parents (or mothers) who are so adamant about not wanting a child that they would have the fetus vacuumed out of their body (and those who would be willing to go so far as to use a wire hanger)...would the child not be better off in "g-d's loving arms?"  A fetus deprived of a life would be that much worse than a child who has already spent time on earth deprived of a "rest of" their life?  

[Cuppycake]

Remember when you debate religion neither party can prove their belief.

Believers cannot prove there is a God and Atheists cannot prove there isn't a God. Scientists just need to continue to search for the answers and maybe then one day if there is no God be able to prove it.

  The burden of proof is on the "believers" not vise versa. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. 

[tammypete]

People are so quick to blame God on the worlds problems today......Its people that cause the problems and not God!

[queenofnines]

Remember that when loved ones pass away and you attend a funeral. Remember that when you are all in the bed crying your eyes out that you will never get to see them again and there is no God...What a burden!

I don't think it's a burden.  I always wondered how I would react when an important person in my life died...and I got a peek at such a reaction in December 2007.  My grandfather called me and said, "I'm sorry to tell you this, but your dad has passed away."  I was getting ready for work that day and stopped in my tracks.  "...What?" I said, shocked.  "Your uncle found his obituary the other day [reads details]."  My grandfather could not tell me HOW he had died, but I was upset and crying nonetheless.  Canceled going in to work.  I felt a bit put-off by this news, considering my dad was only 48 at the time.  I wanted to know what happened.

It turns out he killed himself on December 26th that year.  He never said goodbye to me and hadn't talked to me for months leading up to this (I was never around him growing up, and even when we did finally meet when I was 17, he didn't put much if an effort in to maintain a relationship with me).  When I went to the memorial service, what upset me most was how his Reverend cousin turned it into one big religious fest.  My tears at this point were not sadness that he was gone, but ANGER that his goodbye service was tainted by preaching and lies.  Forget speaking fondly of memories of my dad, this is what we all got instead:

"God saw how sad Rick was, and so an angel carried him away that fateful day.  Blah, blah, blah.  He's in a heaven now where he can never hurt again."    Yeah, even though, you know, he only sort of believed in god in general, and if he truly trusted in Jesus as his "savior", he wouldn't have killed himself.  Get your story straight, religious people.  He's in hell by your standards.

Anyway, the point is EVERYONE DIES.  Yes it's sad at first, but do you really think anyone wants you to waste the rest of YOUR life mourning them??  Be grateful for the time you DID have with them, but don't worship the dead, yo!  They're not able to appreciate it by default.  

Death sucks, but you're not going to do yourself any favors by LYING to yourself about something coming after.

[Cuppycake]

Really, I don't waste my time with all this God stuff and Bible stuff and I just live my life. If there is no God then when I would find out the truth there will be nothing to use to find out (no brain), so it won't matter.

I can live my life like there is a God, it does make everything seem everlasting and beautiful.

I am a skeptic but some things you just believe even if it seems too good to be true. I still believe I will be swept off my feet by prince charming and ride off into the sunset on his horse (car) after being married and live happily ever after.

Why take that from me? Dare to dream.

I wonder how long until this is deleted ...

[Falconer02]

I could see how it would bother someone who doesn't want to be confronted with truth

Sprinkling fake things with faulty truths does not make it true no matter how sweet it tastes.

I feel the spirit is leading me and I don't feel it leading me right now but I didn't want you to think I retreated in the corner sucking my thumb lol.

Last time the spirit lead me, I wound up falling onto a busy highway. Good thing I threw that lemon aside and used my perception, principles, reasoning, and ninja skills to get out of that sticky situation.

I don't put the "o" in g-d because my faith teaches that to know someone's name is to know them on a personal level, and we cannot possibly know g-d on that level.  There are over 70 different ways of calling g-d, but we do not know g-d's name except for imperfect translations.  It's just another symbol of my not knowing g-d as I know others, like friends, relatives, and even acquaintances.  

That's unique. I've never heard of that before. It's like you aren't imposing a relationship on someone. Even though I don't believe the christian god exists, I suppose that's a noble trait to practice.

It turns out he killed himself on December 26th that year.  He never said goodbye to me and hadn't talked to me for months leading up to this (I was never around him growing up, and even when we did finally meet when I was 17, he didn't put much if an effort in to maintain a relationship with me).  When I went to the memorial service, what upset me most was how his Reverend cousin turned it into one big religious fest.  My tears at this point were not sadness that he was gone, but ANGER that his goodbye service was tainted by preaching and lies.

Ohhhh...that's AWFUL. Sorry to hear about that...geez. Really I am    And then to salt the wound, they give him a run-of-the-mill religious speech. Yeah I imagine a lot of non-delusioned people would be p.o'd too considering faulty christian reasoning. I know I am just by hearing that.

I wonder how long until this is deleted ...

I think a better question is "Why am I reading this troll garbage?"

[queenofnines]

Last time the spirit lead me, I wound up falling onto a busy highway. Good thing I threw that lemon aside and used my perception, principles, reasoning, and ninja skills to get out of that sticky situation.

Are you being literal?   

Even though I don't believe the christian god exists, I suppose that's a noble trait to practice.

I wondered about the missing letter, too.  I personally don't capitalize the word god because most people refer to "god" as the Christian god and think he's a real person, when he's not.  Such a god is not deserving of the respect of a proper noun when so many horrible things have been done in his (invisible) name.  Unlike Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny -- I have no problem capitalizing those!

Ohhhh...that's AWFUL. Sorry to hear about that...geez. Really I am    And then to salt the wound, they give him a run-of-the-mill religious speech. Yeah I imagine a lot of non-delusioned people would be p.o'd too considering faulty christian reasoning. I know I am just by hearing that.

It's alright.    I'm glad he's not depressed anymore.  His atoms have been recycled back into the universe, "living on" in trees, animals, water, and great minds.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83j-IDqPOVc&videos=qF4YnX3CQXE

And yeah, his mom asked me if I wanted to say anything after all of the religious mumbo-jumbo had been said, but I was too pissed at that point.  It would have been socially awkward for me to say what I REALLY felt: "Listen, he's dead.  He's not in heaven.  He's not in hell.  He's dead.  Instead of wasting our appointed time to remember him by filling it with impossible thinking, let his death be a lesson to live your life to the fullest and not take the people you care about for granted."

Man, such a burden it would be if I were still a Christian, believing my poor father was being burned and tortured right now.  How could "a person of faith" reasonably live with that??!!?  Wouldn't that bother you guys??

Perhaps I am getting ahead of myself.  Funny how Christians like to say one thing (that those who commit suicide go straight to hell), but when it comes time to actually have the funeral, suddenly the doctrine has changed!!   

[shernajwine]

Quote
I feel the spirit is leading me and I don't feel it leading me right now but I didn't want you to think I retreated in the corner sucking my thumb lol.

Last time the spirit lead me, I wound up falling onto a busy highway. Good thing I threw that lemon aside and used my perception, principles, reasoning, and ninja skills to get out of that sticky situation.[/quote]

See this is what I'm talking about, atheists being condescending and disrespectful.  I think I have been respectful of you as a person, despite disagreeing with you I have not mocked you or tried to humiliate you by making fun of you or what you think.

This comment is disrespectful to me as a person. You can think my beliefs are ridiculous but to stoop to mocking my beliefs is immature and I really don't appreciate it. 

[queenofnines]

This comment is disrespectful to me as a person. You can think my beliefs are ridiculous but to stoop to mocking my beliefs is immature and I really don't appreciate it. 

He's a good guy.  I'm sure he didn't mean to hurt your feelings!

WHY atheists are "arrogant": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve_CFI0W4mU&videos=FEiwbzy9puw  (I screened it; it's not offensive - lol)

[amyrouse]

I don't put the "o" in g-d because my faith teaches that to know someone's name is to know them on a personal level, and we cannot possibly know g-d on that level.  There are over 70 different ways of calling g-d, but we do not know g-d's name except for imperfect translations.  It's just another symbol of my not knowing g-d as I know others, like friends, relatives, and even acquaintances.  

That's unique. I've never heard of that before. It's like you aren't imposing a relationship on someone. Even though I don't believe the christian god exists, I suppose that's a noble trait to practice.

Ahh, but I don't believe in the christian god, either.  I'm Jewish.  There is a big difference.  One of the biggies is that we don't try to "save" people or frighten them into our way of believing.