Well I guess we can agree to disagree than. I respect your views and your knowledge of the scriptures. I really do, and I think it is wonderful that someone who actually claims to believe in the Bible, such as you do, has actually read it cover to cover (as I'm sure you have). There are so many people out there that make similar claims, yet have never taken the time to read the word. I'm used to dealing with the latter, so I'm sorry if I came across harsh or offensive. I'm used to my views being tarnished and my testimony being treated as dirt (I served as a missionary for a time in Eastern Europe speaking Russian).
Your interpretations of scripture seem sound, whether or not it is true or how I myself interpret it. You have put a lot of thought into these passages, and that is great.
I hope we can discuss things in a civil and respectable manner from now on. After all, we are all seekers of truth and imperfect beings, and subject to mistakes and error of thought.
Here is some further evidence of Man seeing God:
Exodus 24:9-11 - Moses and seventy elders all see God. Very clearly stated.
The Bible sates in several places that man cannot see God and live. It also states in 1 Timothy 6:16 (14-16) that no man can see, nor has seen the risen Lord, Jesus Christ, but we have ample evidence that many saw the risen Lord in Acts 10:40-41 (38-41). We can conclude that no sinful man may see God and live, for many righteous have seen both Christ and his Father.
So now on to the next item of business. The doctrine of the Trinity. You used this doctrine many times to show that many of my interpretations were incorrect, stating that Christ is God manifested in a mortal body, and that when it states in John 6:46 that he who is "of God" hath seen the father, it is not the father that is seen, but the son.
As you have probably guessed, I do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity as presented in the Nicene creed in the 4th century A.D.
Some Biblical Scriptures that I feel do not agree with this doctrine:
John 5:19 - The son can do nothing but what he seeth the father do. If they are the same being, this would mean that he could do nothing, because if Christ is God, and God is Christ, than God can do nothing unless he saw himself do it first.
John 8: 12-18 - The pharisees accuse Christ of bearing record or witness of himself in vs 13. The Lord stated in 2 Corinthians 13:1 that by the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. This is repeated in Matthew 18:16. Witnesses were very important to the jews, and any word with only a single witness was not nearly as powerful as a word with multiple witnesses. Christ states in vs 17 & 18 that two men witness of him, the Father and the Son. They must be different individuals or the witness would be void.
John 14:28 - Christ very distinctly states: "... my father is greater than I." If they were the same being, one could not be greater than the other, because then they would not be the same person.
John 17:20-23 - Sections of The Lord's prayer, a famous example used by those sympathetic to the Trinity Doctrine. Let's take a closer look. The Lord states: "That they all may be one; as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us ... that they may be one, even as we are one." If we were to become one with God and Jesus Christ in the literal sense, we would become God too, and unite with him physically and spiritually and cease to exist in our present form. God would have to eat us, and we would absorb into him or something the like. It also states that the apostles should be one. It isn't saying that they should go out and absorb into eachother, but that they should be one in mind, in goal, and in leading the church in God. The only rational interpretation of this is that we should be one metaphorically, rather than literally. Therefore, God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate, distinct individuals who are united in perfect harmony and love, just as we should be as God's literal offspring.
John 20:17 - "... go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my father, and your father, and to my God, and your God."
2 Corinthians 4:4 - Christ is the image of God. As we were created in God's image, Christ is also in perfect likeness unto the father, but is not literally the same person.
1 John 5:7 - God, Jesus (the Word), and the Holy Ghost are three witnesses in heaven, and are one (in goal). Again, if they are witnesses, they cannot be the same being, or the witnesses would be void.
I find it fascinating that you found the real nature of Jehovah fulfilled in Jesus Christ. The topic of Jehovah, on the other hand, is hard to prove either way with the Bible. There are many scriptures that clearly signify God the Father as Jehovah, and others that clearly signify Christ as Jehovah. For this reason have I come to the conclusion that Jehovah is more of a title, perhaps a title of creation. We know in John 1:3,10 & Ephesians 3:9 that all things were made by Jess Christ under the direction of his Father.
Hi mstachitas,
We most certainly can discuss Biblical reference and agree to disagree. I would like nothing more. I may be a bit absent because my days are so filled with duties, and I do travel locally and foreignly for the Gospel. A trip is in the works for the Middle East soon.
I actually do a study on the Oneness of God, and it's quite extensive. I don't believe in the Trinity. Through much study and real experience in Jesus, the Truth most certainly has made me free. I'm glad to know you do not believe in the Trinity either.....we are actually rare in that belief.
I'll take these one by one and we can discuss them back and forth.
Exodus 24:9-11
While I understand this points to God being seen, you need to take the whole chapter and realize that what they saw was not a human body.....maybe heavenly:
v 10 - And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were a body the body of Heaven in it's clearness. and upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Then in verses 12-18, when He tells Moses to come up to the mountain for the Law, he is a cloud and fire. My question is, why would He change his appearance from man (if he is man) to smoke, fire, clouds, etc.?
These are "manifestations" of God. God did not have a body back then, but did at times take on human form or the form of an angel or whatever to be seen of man (otherwise man could not see him). He revealed himself to the prophets or chosen ones in different forms and substances. The scripture that no man hath seen God at any time is quite literal. He is a Spirit (omnipresent and omnipotent). If God was to reveal himself to anyone, wouldn't it be Moses? However, we see Him in various manifestations, from the burning bush to clouds, fire, etc. Why not just one form....man and be that.....well......he did....Jesus! in the New Testament. We need to realize that the Old Testament a lot of times were "types" and "shadows" of things to come.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Te same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14 And the
Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.) full of grace and truth.
John 1:17-18 For the Law was given by Moses, but the grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen fod at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath
declared him.
Strongs Concordance in the "Greek" Definition (New Testament Translation):1834 from 1537 and 2233 - to consider out (aloud), i.e. rehearse, unfold-declare, tell.
I went to 1537, and the explanation is too long to write here, but if you have a Strongs, you can read it for yourself.
2233 - voice of a (presumed) strengthened form of 71, to lead, i.e. command (with official authority), fig. to deem, i.c. consider-account, (be) chief, count, esteem, governor, judge, have the rule over, suppose, think.
Hebrew 1:1-3 GOD, who at Sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the
express image of his person, and upholding all thing by the word of his power, when he had by himself purges our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
(I've already covered the "right hand of God"). Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance
obtained a more excellent name than they. Verses 4-7For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(these are questions God is asking). And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angles spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Verse 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.I'm running out of time here so I'm going to "cram" a lot of this - paraphrasing. When you read scripture of Jesus talking, you need to realize that
He was our "fleshly" example. Jesus many times spoke from the flesh standpoint. Jesus was God in Creation, Son in redemption, and the Holy Ghost in the quickening and resurrection. They are ONE.
You have listed MANY scriptures and what I would like to do is take one at a time, as this is quite extensive in study and material. I've written all the ones down that I did not address, so I can do so later.
The name Jehovah had many
"character titles" next to the name Jehovah: (You can study each name out for it's meaning).
Jehovah-Nissi was "Jehovah is my Victory" (Exodus 17:15)
Jehovah-Jireh was "Jehovah my Provider" (Genesis 22:14)
Jehovah-Shaloam is "Jehovah my Peace" (Judges 6:24)
God also known as:
I AM
El SHADDAI
ELOHIM
Why was Jesus crucified? He went around doing good, healing all, spoke the Truth in righteousness. Why then did the religious leaders of that day get so angry enough to want him crucified? Yes, He was uncovering their hypocrisy, but it was something else very prevalent in the scriptures.
Exodus 3:13-14 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? What shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses,
I AM THAT I AM: and he said, This shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou are not yet fifty years old, and has thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and wentrout of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
In other words, Jesus put Himself in God's stead, because He was the Great I Am. (in the flesh).
Nobody can tarnish your testimony, or treat it as dirt. They can try, but a personal testimony is precious in God's eyes, and yours alone. I've also been on the Mission field, and know what a challenge that can be at times.
All through Revelations, there is only
ONE sitting on the throne.
I know I've missed some of the above scriptures you have posted but will have to answer them at a later date. Maybe if we can take one or two at a time? It's my own fault, as I've overextended myself, and now my evenings are my only free time, and things are really picking up in way of my Ministerial duties. Do not think you are bothering me, I just need to take this with a bit shorter posts, and spread this out over many days, instead of a few.....if that would be acceptable?
The subject of "Witnesses" next then, and how it pertains to the Oneness of God or Trinity?
Community Forum
Topic: Till Death do us part?? (Read 2818 times)
September 19, 2010, 03:56:47 pm
