Which bible do you Read?

[jcribb16]

Falconer,

As a Christian, I believe in God's Word, the Bible.  I know there are several non-christians in here who say that they, at one time, were a Christian.  Many of those same can quote the Bible as well as any believer.  Revelation is, as you know, the last book of the Bible.  While John was on the island at Patmos, he had a Vision of the Lord (which is not like our dreams of today, but was real - such as a prophetic vision) of the things to come before Christ comes again to take the believers, dead and alive, to Heaven with Him, and afterwards.

The whole book of Revelation goes into every detail of what is to happen, why it's to happen, and how it's to happen.  Everything in there relates to events in the Old Testament, the New Testament, and ties into the bigger picture of the future events.  I may be wasting my breath to write this, but that's okay - it's what I feel and believe - just as you feel and believe something different - and this is a debate and discuss section.  I would like to invite you to read the entire book of Revelation, but only as you so wish or not.  It will cover so many things in this discussion.  Chapter 13 discusses what I spoke about earlier about having to take the mark of the "beast" or it will be very hard to have jobs, cash, food, clothes, etc.  So people will have to choose to worship the beast and get things they want and need, or worship the Lord, and be persecuted, killed, tortured, etc.  As a believer in Christ, though, the reward ultimately is to live in Heaven for eternity with none of the problems they experience and encounter in those last days on earth.

It seems that Christians are expected to know the answers to all of the questions put before them regarding God, the events in the Old and the New Testaments, and in that respect, defend themselves because of what they believe.  As Christians, we do not know all of the answers, nor are we expected to have to prove everything put before us.  So, yes, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer for many questions put before us.  We will find out one day what all of the answers are.  Some people will be fine and some people will be regretful regarding decisions made for or against God.  Science, itself, hasn't proven every little thing either, so in that respect, we are at a standstill when dicussing this subject.

Once again, I believe through faith (yep, that word again), and have put my trust in the Lord.  If we weren't allowed to rely on faith and trust, then I'm assuming the words would never have been made or thought of in the first place.  They are in the dictionary and they do describe my allegiance with the Lord.  It is not a "cult-like" philosophy either.  People make their choice to either believe in God or not, believe in other gods or idols or not, and choose one religion over the other or not.  None of that is cult-like behavior - it is free, personal, choice/will in what or who they believe in or stand for. 

[ljNana]

I love how beautifully the King James is written.  No other version is worded so beautifully.  I read and have several different versions, as I used to study.  I honestly cannot understand the original King James, unless I already know the scripture so well that I know what it means.  Sometimes when I am reading another version, and I come across one of those scriptures that I know is worded so well in the original King James, I have to get it out and read it there also.

[Falconer02]

Revelation is, as you know, the last book of the Bible.  While John was on the island at Patmos, he had a Vision of the Lord (which is not like our dreams of today, but was real - such as a prophetic vision) of the things to come before Christ comes again to take the believers, dead and alive, to Heaven with Him, and afterwards.

If he had visions of the future, then freewill is completely incapable of happening because he knows the future. Unless John was lying, we can easily conclude that the christian god is evil. There's really no way of getting around this trait without oblivious ignorance.

I would like to invite you to read the entire book of Revelation, but only as you so wish or not.  It will cover so many things in this discussion.  Chapter 13 discusses what I spoke about earlier about having to take the mark of the "beast" or it will be very hard to have jobs, cash, food, clothes, etc.  So people will have to choose to worship the beast and get things they want and need, or worship the Lord, and be persecuted, killed, tortured, etc.

Are you willingly closing your eyes to the world around you and not noticing that much of the world suffers from these problems and HAS been suffering with these problems for tens of thousands of years? These problems are nothing new when it comes to any world power in history. You could say this word-for-word 1000 years ago and it would still apply. It's known as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy
People are going to choose what they need to survive. Any rational or decent person who cares for themselves isn't going to worship a god who wants them to die terribly. That's an insane and emo-like philosophy to live by. If your god thinks being persecuted, killed, and tortured is more favorable in his eyes than "worshipping a beast"-- having food, clothes, shelter, a job, a livelihood, health etc. --enjoying life-- then your god is very unworthy of worship and someone really needs to get Social Services up in heaven to straighten him out.

As Christians, we do not know all of the answers, nor are we expected to have to prove everything put before us.  So, yes, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer for many questions put before us.  We will find out one day what all of the answers are.  Some people will be fine and some people will be regretful regarding decisions made for or against God.  Science, itself, hasn't proven every little thing either, so in that respect, we are at a standstill when dicussing this subject.

Science has explanations of why they think the way they do-- there are lines of proof that have undeniable weight to them that can be demonstrated. When they don't have a basis for a claim, they don't come to conclusions about it because that's pointless and that's not science. The thing is, the religious willingly say they know what's going to happen, contradict themselves heavily, admit they don't have the answers, and then still say they're still right. That's completely deranged and false. When you can't even explain the basic element of free will (the underlying element to the whole abrahamic-god catastrophy), you really can't justify anything beyond it. A fundamental principle is broken and therefore nothing can be concluded. Having faith in it is nothing more than an obvious strong dose of self deception.

It is not a "cult-like" philosophy either.  People make their choice to either believe in God or not, believe in other gods or idols or not, and choose one religion over the other or not.  None of that is cult-like behavior - it is free, personal, choice/will in what or who they believe in or stand for.  

Again, we've already proven that if you're Christian, you cannot have free will because of massive contradictions being displayed. So it's not a personal choice unless it can be explained how. And the majority of religions all have cult attributes.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q1.html

[sarabtrayior]

The Message, a wonderful, contemporary bible that I can understand and it was written by Eugene Peterson and he received much flack for writing it... 

[jcribb16]

The book of Revelation is also called the "Apocalypse" or "Unveiling."  The reason John was on the island of Patmos is because he was in trouble for preaching the Word of God.  So he was exiled to this small island as punishment.  Even worse, during his exile, the Roman emperor, Domitian, proclaimed to everyone that he, himself, was to be worshipped as deity.  There was a lot of persecution even then, against the church.  This is actual history, not something I'm just making up.

While John was on Patmos, is when the revelation came to him from God about Jesus, regarding the future ahead.  An angel helped John to understand this revelation.  Genesis tells of the beginning of sin, along with Satan's victory (in the Garden.)  Revelation tells of the end of sin, and how Satan will be defeated.  It gives full details on the prophetic events that will happen in the last days before Christ's return:
     *Devastations that will take place on the earth
     *The mark of the beast, 666, which will be placed in the forehead or the right hand (Chapter 13)
     *The Battle of Armageddon
     *The binding of Satan
      *The Reign of the Lord
     *The Great White Throne Judgment
     *The New Heaven, Earth, and Jerusalem

There are certain numbers that stand out in this book.  666 is the number for the beast, Satan.  7 is used throughout for things such as: the 7 letters to the 7 churches, the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, the 7 signs, the 7 plagues, the 7 dooms, and the 7 new things.

This all can be despair and embarrassment for Christians or it can be a time of rejoicing in the Lord.  Jesus was sacrificed for us, which changed the Old Law and ways of sacrificing, to the New and eternal Law, or covenant. He is now the mediator between God and Christians.  Satan is the greatest enemy of every Christian (I Peter 5;8.)  Christians are further encouraged to not be deceived by false doctrines, to beware of antichrists.  Christians are reassured of the power of prayer and their protection in God from the evil one. This is discussed in I John.

The reason I zeroed in on this instead of everything else you also brought up in your post, is because I wanted to go more into the history of Revelation, why John was on Patmos, and how a Christian is a firm believer in God's Word.  These things will happen - it's all a matter of time.  God has definitely given free choice to everyone - it may be a concept that is debatable but nevertheless, people can either accept or not accept the Lord. 

[Falconer02]

The reason I zeroed in on this instead of everything else you also brought up in your post, is because I wanted to go more into the history of Revelation, why John was on Patmos, and how a Christian is a firm believer in God's Word.  These things will happen - it's all a matter of time.  God has definitely given free choice to everyone - it may be a concept that is debatable but nevertheless, people can either accept or not accept the Lord.  

Sooo...you admittedly skipped over everything in order to tell me a story I was already familiar with and then tell me we have free will even though it's blatantly obvious that christian teachings don't allow for it. I appreciate the review (really I do-- I just find it peculiar how you've jumped over what I've said), but you fail to understand the most basic problem with your teachings. Every christian who I've talked to always swirvs around the problem. When you tell of prophecies or what's going to happen in the future, you mistakenly set up a wall. If something so grand, supernatural, and inevitable is going to happen in the future, you've set up a fatalistic scenario because you're explaining the future and how powerless we are to avoid it. Then we get "the ultimate choice". To quote a random internet poster-

"Believe as we do, and be rewarded with everlasting paradise, doubt us, and be damned to eternal torture." This is NOT free will. This is bribery on the one hand, and coercion through fear on the other. It's like The Godfather--"make 'em an offer he CAN'T refuse!"

Can you please explain to me (with free will being the main category) how this isn't so?

[jcribb16]

Falconer,

I didn't say I wasn't going to answer to the rest of your post.  I said I wanted to zero in with more detail on Revelation and what it means for the coming future.  You've got your sites set on one thing only and want to push for the other answer to your question.  No one is trying to ignore it.  So think what you want, but I will get back to you on that when I finish some more activities in my personal life, lol!

[Falconer02]

Ohhh ok ok. Take your time! But just remember, in order for a prophecy to be true, you're going to need pinpoint-precision if it's going to be real. If your prophecies in the bible are true, there cannot be any gaps or major areas of doubt. Specific names, areas, dates, numbers, etc. -- they all have to be 100% right in order for a prophecy to uphold. They cannot match up with anything else through history-- EVERYTHING must be specific! If just 1 thing is incorrect, vague, or misleading, it cannot be a prophecy.

One point to remember is that the probability of an event changes as soon as a prophecy (or divination) exists. . . . The accuracy or outcome of any prophecy is altered by the desires and attachments of the seer and those who hear the prophecy.[
-wiki article

Now, if you can convince me that these prophecies are really happening, please then tell me how knowing the future allows for free will since everything is obviously predestined to happen.

[jcribb16]

Falconer,
Before I come back again with an answer to you I just want to say a couple of things:

Quote from you:
Take your time! But just remember, in order for a prophecy to be true, you're going to need pinpoint-precision if it's going to be real. If your prophecies in the bible are true, there cannot be any gaps or major areas of doubt. Specific names, areas, dates, numbers, etc. -- they all have to be 100% right in order for a prophecy to uphold. They cannot match up with anything else through history-- EVERYTHING must be specific! If just 1 thing is incorrect, vague, or misleading, it cannot be a prophecy.

*First of all, I don't need to be backed in a corner in that you are giving me strict stipulations as to what I can write about prophecy being 100% fulfulled, or it is not a prophecy.

*The Book of Revelation is indeed a book of prophecy, an unveiling of the events that will take place, in God's time, and in His Will.  It's also made very clear in Revelation that we, as man, are not to add to that book, or change the meanings of what is intended in that book (Rev. 22: 19-20.)  It's very clear what will happen to someone who does:  He will have one of the plagues set upon him/her; and will be written out of the Book of Life/Heaven.  Since I believe in Christ, I take God's Word as literal, and I am not going to add to or change anything in Revelation to prove to you or anyone else that these prophecies will happen.  They will happen.

*The Book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, is filled with prophetic events that Isaiah said would happen and has happened.  He also told ahead what is to come in our future (like Revelation.)

*Having said that, I can still get back with you, later, with what we were discussing, including free will/personal choice.  I just wanted to say these things.  Thank you. 

[timvolley]

i like the NIV version of the bible

[Getinonthis]

Hey Falconer
How have you been? 
jcribb16
It's great to see a fellow believer holding firm to their beliefs and not being caught in a toe to toe
debate that would lead one to acting off his own noetic and drifting away from the Word.
Hats off to you. 

[Falconer02]

First of all, I don't need to be backed in a corner in that you are giving me strict stipulations as to what I can write about prophecy being 100% fulfulled, or it is not a prophecy.

I'm not backing you into a corner. These are very basic rules to make a legitimate prophecy. If you can't be realistic, then biblical prophecy really has nothing on Nostradamus.

Let's just say it's 9/10/01 and I say that something bad would happen in New York the next day. Does that make me a prophet? No. Why? Because a lot of bad things happen in NY everyday. Even if I said 2 planes would crash in NY, I still wouldn't be a prophet! For all we know, 2 Cessnas could have mistakenly crashed into a smaller building the next day. This is not how legit prophecies work. If I were to explain in great detail what was going to go down, who was going to fly the jets into the WTC, when/why the buildings would both fall, how the president would react, etc. etc. only then would I be a true prophet. It is very easy to call gullibility on these types things since most prophecies people say are true are self-fulfilling prophecies (such as biblical ones).

Since I believe in Christ, I take God's Word as literal, and I am not going to add to or change anything in Revelation to prove to you or anyone else that these prophecies will happen.  They will happen.

I never said add or change anything. I'm simply asking for prophecies that can be held as 100% true prophecies (no margin of error). I'm under the impression that this god who's loving and all-powerful would atleast be decently precise on these things (maybe a few exact names or dates) in order for people to nod in agreement. Any ancient desert-dweller could make up vague prophecies that could be held true for...millions of events to come. It's really easy! Precision is the major selling element here to any person with an ounce of skepticism, and I haven't seen anything legit at all. I'm keeping my standards pretty low here too.

I can still get back with you, later, with what we were discussing, including free will/personal choice.  I just wanted to say these things.  Thank you.

Np, mate!

It's great to see a fellow believer holding firm to their beliefs and not being caught in a toe to toe debate that would lead one to acting off his own noetic and drifting away from the Word.  Hats off to you.

A loving god would want to use your brain, right? To question things of their legitimacy? After all, he gave it to you and he gave you the power to do that. You sound like you're saying intellectuals are bad-- thinking is bad. Isn't this kind of contradictory? He gave us peaceful powers that he does not want us to use?

[jcribb16]

Hey Falconer
How have you been? 
jcribb16
It's great to see a fellow believer holding firm to their beliefs and not being caught in a toe to toe
debate that would lead one to acting off his own noetic and drifting away from the Word.
Hats off to you. 

Thank you Getinonthis!  I've kept up with your postings as well.  It's nice to meet you!

[Getinonthis]

The pleasure is all mine.

[Getinonthis]

A loving god would want to use your brain, right? 

Two questions:
1. Whats your definition of a loving god?
2. And using of your brain in relation to that particular god?