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falcon9

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Re: Faith
« Reply #390 on: October 29, 2011, 01:07:39 am »
Falcon9:

There are many definitions of atheism with regards to whether or not it is a belief system.  Most say not.  However a couple actually do say it is. 


There aren't any standard definitions which define atheism as a belief system, (wikipedia and the free dictionary being nonstandard sources).  Interestingly enough, you used part of the definition for 'atheism', ("doctrine"), and referenced _that_ term, instead of 'athesim' itself.  Let's look at wikipedia's nonstandard definition of 'atheism' shall we?

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

The entry continues, (anyone can look it up), without defining atheism as a "belief system".  Now, as to atheism being a "doctrine" we have:

"doc·trine [dok-trin]
noun
1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church."


Again, nothing about a "belief system" there.


So her opinion has merit to it in that there are some who consider atheism a belief system.


Alternatively, it appears from the reference sources that the word "doctrine" applies much more directly to religious beliefs than it does to a non-religious philosophy like atheism. 


a·the·ism 
1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
(Dictionary.com)


Oddly, that reference seems to define a 'disbelief' as a belief although the same source defines "disbelief" as:

"dis·be·lief [dis-bi-leef]
noun
1.the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true."



It takes just as much faith to believe in atheism as believers have faith in theism. 


That does seem to be the a priori assumption in play however, applying "faith" to atheism is exxtremely specious.  The reason being that theists declare that faith, (a lack of evidence), _required_ whereas atheism skeptically rejects a lack of evidence as a substantive basis and that doesn't require faith.


What's ironic is that atheists show they have strong faith in the inferiority of having faith. 


Once again, no "faith" is required to be skeptical of a lack of evidence.  Having "faith" in disbelief is not a logical concept.  


This "faith" includes using everything in their power to influence others to join their atheistic "non belief." 


Presumably, you are referring to the use of reason; something which most religionists abhor?  You did include an inaccurate assumption in that atheism is not an evangelical organisation.  There aren't any bicycle-rifing suits annoying suburban neighborhoods to 'spread teh atheist word'.


They also want to turn anyone and everyone away from the idea of any belief in God. 


What the atheists I've met had in mind was to get people to actually use any inherent critical thinking ability which remains after religious indoctrinations to reason for themselves.  They do this mainly by demonstrating some reasoning processes in the off chance that it'll catch on.



And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.


Fanatics can be found under many rocks; militant atheists would be no more surprising than militant 'onward xtian soldiers'.  However, Falconeer02 indirectly requested a source for this - unless it was hearsay?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             


falcon9

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Re: Faith
« Reply #391 on: October 29, 2011, 01:09:51 am »
Quote
And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.

Who?


I'd be curious to know as well however, in general one can extrapolate that there are militant-fringes on either end of the spectrum in question.
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jcribb16

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Re: Faith
« Reply #392 on: October 29, 2011, 11:43:07 am »
Quote
And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.

Who?

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10433178-american-atheists-leader-says-fundamentalist-christians-must-be-eradicated-compares-them-to-radical-islamists

jcribb16

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Re: Faith
« Reply #393 on: October 29, 2011, 12:13:42 pm »
Quote from falcon9:
There aren't any standard definitions which define atheism as a belief system, (wikipedia and the free dictionary being nonstandard sources).  Interestingly enough, you used part of the definition for 'atheism', ("doctrine"), and referenced _that_ term, instead of 'athesim' itself.  Let's look at wikipedia's nonstandard definition of 'atheism' shall we?

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.[2] Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.[3] Atheism is contrasted with theism,[4][5] which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists."

The entry continues, (anyone can look it up), without defining atheism as a "belief system".  Now, as to atheism being a "doctrine" we have:

"doc·trine [dok-trin]
noun
1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.
2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.
3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church."

Again, nothing about a "belief system" there.


Quote from: jcribb16 on October 28, 2011, 06:23:38 pm
So her opinion has merit to it in that there are some who consider atheism a belief system.

Quote from falcon9:
Alternatively, it appears from the reference sources that the word "doctrine" applies much more directly to religious beliefs than it does to a non-religious philosophy like atheism.

doctrine:
1. Is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system.  (Wikipedia)
2. . A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
(www.thefreedictionary.com/doctrine)
[/b]

I referenced the term as any normal person would do.  It is an unbiased definition that shows belief systems can include RELIGIOUS, and/or SCIENTIFIC groups.  These groups would include theism as well as atheism.  I'm not surprised, that you would reference only the religious side and leave out the alluding to the scientific side. 

falcon9

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Re: Faith
« Reply #394 on: October 29, 2011, 12:45:58 pm »
Quote
And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.

Who?

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10433178-american-atheists-leader-says-fundamentalist-christians-must-be-eradicated-compares-them-to-radical-islamists


As alluded to previously, there are extremists at both ends of the spectrum:

"This review will cover the essence and flavor of American Fascists beginning with some background on the Christian right, its influence, and danger it poses that Hedges covers in detail. He said he wrote the book out of anger and fear of the fundamentalist Christian Right seeking to establish theocratic dominion over society in America in the name of God and is using the Republican party as their vehicle to do it. He compares the movement's messianic mission to Italian and German fascism of the last century cloaking itself in Christianity and patriotism as their way to gain political power under theocracy's literal meaning from the Greek words "Theos" meaning "God" and "cratein/crasy" meaning to rule." --
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5477
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

falcon9

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Re: Faith
« Reply #395 on: October 29, 2011, 12:58:41 pm »
I referenced the term as any normal person would do.  It is an unbiased definition that shows belief systems can include RELIGIOUS, and/or SCIENTIFIC groups.  These groups would include theism as well as atheism. 


The reference was to the various definitions of "doctrine", not of 'atheism'.  If one hasn't already discerned that the definitions of words rely upon using other words, which in turn also use words to define them, they soon will.  The point is that while the definition for _doctrine_ can include scientific and religious DOCTRINES, it does not conflate atheism with a belief system.


I'm not surprised, that you would reference only the religious side and leave out the alluding to the scientific side. 


That's more due to a discernment of the differences between 'doctrine' and 'belief system', (wherein the former is a bit more inclusive than the latter).
[/quote]
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jcribb16

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Re: Faith
« Reply #396 on: October 29, 2011, 01:14:34 pm »
Quote from: jcribb16 on October 28, 2011, 06:23:38 pm
And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.

Quote from falcon9:
Fanatics can be found under many rocks; militant atheists would be no more surprising than militant 'onward xtian soldiers'.  However, Falconeer02 indirectly requested a source for this - unless it was hearsay?

I do not need to be prodded, hurried, or challenged by you when the request first came from Falconer.  I do have a life outside of this forum and I get on here when I am able and have time.  I just happened to read this comment of yours after I posted the link in response to Falconer's request.  Falconer knows me enough that if he asks something of me, I will answer as soon as I can.

SurveyMack10

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Re: Faith
« Reply #397 on: October 29, 2011, 01:16:06 pm »
Quote from: jcribb16 on October 28, 2011, 06:23:38 pm
And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.

Quote from falcon9:
Fanatics can be found under many rocks; militant atheists would be no more surprising than militant 'onward xtian soldiers'.  However, Falconeer02 indirectly requested a source for this - unless it was hearsay?

I do not need to be prodded, hurried, or challenged by you when the request first came from Falconer.  I do have a life outside of this forum and I get on here when I am able and have time.  I just happened to read this comment of yours after I posted the link in response to Falconer's request.  Falconer knows me enough that if he asks something of me, I will answer as soon as I can.
:thumbsup:

falcon9

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Re: Faith
« Reply #398 on: October 29, 2011, 01:25:06 pm »
Quote from: jcribb16 on October 28, 2011, 06:23:38 pm
And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.

Quote from falcon9:
Fanatics can be found under many rocks; militant atheists would be no more surprising than militant 'onward xtian soldiers'.  However, Falconeer02 indirectly requested a source for this - unless it was hearsay?

I do not need to be prodded, hurried, or challenged by you when the request first came from Falconer.  I do have a life outside of this forum and I get on here when I am able and have time.  I just happened to read this comment of yours after I posted the link in response to Falconer's request.  Falconer knows me enough that if he asks something of me, I will answer as soon as I can.


My reply was more centered on your comment that "All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system" rather than particularly rushing you.  In this regard, your conclusion is disputed, (since it relies upon a secondary definition of 'doctrine' and not upon primary definitions of atheism which do not conflate "belief system" with doctrines).
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

jcribb16

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Re: Faith
« Reply #399 on: October 29, 2011, 01:41:14 pm »
Quote from: jcribb16 on October 28, 2011, 06:23:38 pm
And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.

Quote from falcon9:
Fanatics can be found under many rocks; militant atheists would be no more surprising than militant 'onward xtian soldiers'.  However, Falconeer02 indirectly requested a source for this - unless it was hearsay?

I do not need to be prodded, hurried, or challenged by you when the request first came from Falconer.  I do have a life outside of this forum and I get on here when I am able and have time.  I just happened to read this comment of yours after I posted the link in response to Falconer's request.  Falconer knows me enough that if he asks something of me, I will answer as soon as I can.


My reply was more centered on your comment that "All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system" rather than particularly rushing you.  In this regard, your conclusion is disputed, (since it relies upon a secondary definition of 'doctrine' and not upon primary definitions of atheism which do not conflate "belief system" with doctrines).
You can dispute it as you wish.  However, there are still others who would dispute your dispute.  The definitions are included in dictionaries for reasons whether standard or nonstandard, and in this case, I started with the definition of what "atheism" is according to Dictionary.com, and from there to explain what doctrine meant since it was part of the atheist definition:

a·the·ism 
1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
(Dictionary.com)


doctrine:
1. Is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system.  (Wikipedia)
2. . A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
(www.thefreedictionary.com/doctrine)

The religious, as well as scientific, were both included in the definition of doctrine.  Doctrine is not just related to religion.

jcribb16

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Re: Faith
« Reply #400 on: October 29, 2011, 01:42:47 pm »
Quote from: jcribb16 on October 28, 2011, 06:23:38 pm
And in today's society, some have gone so far as to openly say that people who believe in God need to be "eradicated."  All of this, in and of itself, shows that technically, atheism could be considered a belief system.

Quote from falcon9:
Fanatics can be found under many rocks; militant atheists would be no more surprising than militant 'onward xtian soldiers'.  However, Falconeer02 indirectly requested a source for this - unless it was hearsay?

I do not need to be prodded, hurried, or challenged by you when the request first came from Falconer.  I do have a life outside of this forum and I get on here when I am able and have time.  I just happened to read this comment of yours after I posted the link in response to Falconer's request.  Falconer knows me enough that if he asks something of me, I will answer as soon as I can.
:thumbsup:

Thank you.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who took the remark in the way it seemed to infer.

falcon9

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Re: Faith
« Reply #401 on: October 29, 2011, 02:06:39 pm »
The religious, as well as scientific, were both included in the definition of doctrine.  Doctrine is not just related to religion.


So, you are asserting that a basis for atheism as a belief system, (by way of these definitions), includes it as a codified doctrine? Or, that some basis for the 'belief' that "atheism is a belief system" exists?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

falcon9

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Re: Faith
« Reply #402 on: October 29, 2011, 02:14:15 pm »
You can dispute it as you wish.  However, there are still others who would dispute your dispute. 


Yes, they would however, their arguments soon become circular, as you'd noticed previously.  Since atheism involves _disbelief_, (not believing), how can it be considered to be a "belief system"?  Wouldn't 'disbelief system' be closer, (even stretching the idea that atheism itself is systematic)?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

jcribb16

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Re: Faith
« Reply #403 on: October 29, 2011, 03:55:46 pm »
You can dispute it as you wish.  However, there are still others who would dispute your dispute. 


Yes, they would however, their arguments soon become circular, as you'd noticed previously.  Since atheism involves _disbelief_, (not believing), how can it be considered to be a "belief system"?  Wouldn't 'disbelief system' be closer, (even stretching the idea that atheism itself is systematic)?

So whatever in the world is wrong with having a "belief system" that means having disbelief in something or someone?  A person is choosing to "believe" there are no deities. However, I do agree that "disbelief system" would be a good title for atheists.  I have read of this same possible title being discussed in some things when reading about atheism and theism.

Falconer02

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Re: Faith
« Reply #404 on: October 29, 2011, 04:06:37 pm »
Quote
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/10433178-american-atheists-leader-says-fundamentalist-christians-must-be-eradicated-compares-them-to-radical-islamists

1 angry dude? You're judging the atheist community on one guy who admittedly says he went on a rant? I've honestly never seen a prominent atheist say something that extreme and hypocritical before, but the whole read is not entirely bs and makes some good points (as Falcon9 quoted). Read the comments below the article since there are plenty of level-headed atheists there that say the same thing I did here.

However I've seen plenty of christians (both to my face and online) say this about atheists-- how they should be erradicated or deported.

http://wickershamsconscience.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/atheists.png?w=550&h=1045

I said it once and I'll say it again- I honestly am perplexed as to why the christians here are trying to show how atheism is a belief system. It's not. Neither is theism. Plain and simple. The fact that the christians here are trying to find work-arounds and such are really just grasping at straws and it's really getting ridiculous.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090706202727AAs5FuA


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