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Topic: North Carolina... Why?  (Read 7831 times)

falcon9

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2012, 10:19:49 pm »
You have illustrated my point to my satisfaction.....carry on.

Would you share with me what your point is please?

No.

In other words you are in agreement with me then, as their can be no other conclusion.

Not sure whose "can" you mean however, this could be one of those elusive mysteries wrapped up in an enigma, sealed-up in a box, painted with camouflauge-paint and buried way out in the woods somewhere.  Or, it could be hiding in plain sight - one of those should work.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Abrupt

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2012, 05:58:30 am »
You have illustrated my point to my satisfaction.....carry on.

Would you share with me what your point is please?

No.

In other words you are in agreement with me then, as their can be no other conclusion.

Not sure whose "can" you mean however, this could be one of those elusive mysteries wrapped up in an enigma, sealed-up in a box, painted with camouflauge-paint and buried way out in the woods somewhere.  Or, it could be hiding in plain sight - one of those should work.

I blame auto-correct and laziness/haste on my part.
There are only 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary, and those who don't.

falcon9

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2012, 01:22:21 pm »
No.

In other words you are in agreement with me then, as their can be no other conclusion.

Not sure whose "can" you mean however, this could be one of those elusive mysteries wrapped up in an enigma, sealed-up in a box, painted with camouflauge-paint and buried way out in the woods somewhere.  Or, it could be hiding in plain sight - one of those should work.

I blame auto-correct and laziness/haste on my part.

I misspell sometimes too however, the reference was to the assumption and not really the grammar.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Abrupt

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2012, 01:49:23 pm »
I misspell sometimes too however, the reference was to the assumption and not really the grammar.

It actually is more of a challenge to the game statement (the classic 'terse dismissal' used and one I use sometimes as it can be effective to test the ego of the target) and less of an assumption -- consider it a catspaw.  My point was that such can be instantly riposted and they are ineffective answers in such a presentation (although they can be useful in other areas).
There are only 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary, and those who don't.

falcon9

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2012, 01:55:04 pm »
It actually is more of a challenge to the game statement (the classic 'terse dismissal' used and one I use sometimes as it can be effective to test the ego of the target) and less of an assumption -- consider it a catspaw.  My point was that such can be instantly riposted and they are ineffective answers in such a presentation (although they can be useful in other areas).

Still, this could be one of those elusively-subtle mysteries wrapped up in an enigma, sealed-up in a box, painted with camouflauge-paint and buried way out in the woods somewhere.  Or, it could be hiding in plain sight within a prior reply.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

walksalone11

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2012, 01:06:04 pm »
You have illustrated my point to my satisfaction.....carry on.

Would you share with me what your point is please?
No.

In other words you are in agreement with me then, as their can be no other conclusion.
Not even close.

walksalone11

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2012, 01:19:35 pm »
That's very interesting and something I haven't heard of(Chinese colony). I will follow up on that link later as I am totally off grid and its quite a storm here now IE: Im not making solar power and my batteries are almost depleted. Thanks for the link. I'll get back to you on that as well as my thoughts on ancestry.

Fair enough, take your time.  Let those batteries recharge.
Sorry Falcon for taking so long to get back to this, and, regret that at this time I'm forced by necessity to make a breif hit and run reply. I will try to revisit this with a more in depth reply another day as time permits.

My thoughts are that culture and traditions are a big part of what defines a Nation. I get the whole "common ancestor" thing and will not elaborate on my thoughts of such at this time. But as we can all see, there are many distinct and separate cultures. So in asking me how far back I would draw the line on who I consider an Ancestor.....I couldn't tell you. I do know that based on artifacts and remains, archaeologists have estimated that my Nations peoples have lived in the southeastern U.S. for about 10,000 years, however, it would be completely idiotic to say that if we migrated there for elsewhere, that our cultural traditions just mysteriously began at the time of our arrival. Based on this evidence my best answer would be "in excess of 10,000 years.

falcon9

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2012, 02:39:51 pm »
Sorry Falcon for taking so long to get back to this, and, regret that at this time I'm forced by necessity to make a breif hit and run reply. I will try to revisit this with a more in depth reply another day as time permits.

While some may let a discussion lapse for various reason and not get back to it, you weren't considered to be one of those people.  Everyone gets busy sometimes, even me.  :o

My thoughts are that culture and traditions are a big part of what defines a Nation. I get the whole "common ancestor" thing and will not elaborate on my thoughts of such at this time. But as we can all see, there are many distinct and separate cultures. So in asking me how far back I would draw the line on who I consider an Ancestor.....I couldn't tell you. I do know that based on artifacts and remains, archaeologists have estimated that my Nations peoples have lived in the southeastern U.S. for about 10,000 years, however, it would be completely idiotic to say that if we migrated there for elsewhere, that our cultural traditions just mysteriously began at the time of our arrival. Based on this evidence my best answer would be "in excess of 10,000 years.

While I tend to agree with you regarding separate & distinct cultures, I would quibble on the "in excess of 10,000 years" caveat based upon those very distinctions.  Controversially, regarding the Kenniwick Man remains, (circa 9,000 years ago), the 9th District Court of Appeals denied of four northwest NDN tribes to claim the Kenniwick remains as their ancestor. Due to distinctive differences between caucasiod and eurasian physiologies. They further ruled that the remains could not be defined as Native American under the NAGPRA law. The NAGPRA law refers to the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, 25 U.S.C. 3001.

Since there is dispute regarding cultural connections between 10,000+ and 9,000 or less years ago, (those separate and distinct cultures which were not NDN and yet, were extant), we can either pursue or, let this aspect drop.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

walksalone11

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2012, 02:55:58 pm »
Sorry Falcon for taking so long to get back to this, and, regret that at this time I'm forced by necessity to make a breif hit and run reply. I will try to revisit this with a more in depth reply another day as time permits.

While some may let a discussion lapse for various reason and not get back to it, you weren't considered to be one of those people.  Everyone gets busy sometimes, even me.  :o

My thoughts are that culture and traditions are a big part of what defines a Nation. I get the whole "common ancestor" thing and will not elaborate on my thoughts of such at this time. But as we can all see, there are many distinct and separate cultures. So in asking me how far back I would draw the line on who I consider an Ancestor.....I couldn't tell you. I do know that based on artifacts and remains, archaeologists have estimated that my Nations peoples have lived in the southeastern U.S. for about 10,000 years, however, it would be completely idiotic to say that if we migrated there for elsewhere, that our cultural traditions just mysteriously began at the time of our arrival. Based on this evidence my best answer would be "in excess of 10,000 years.

While I tend to agree with you regarding separate & distinct cultures, I would quibble on the "in excess of 10,000 years" caveat based upon those very distinctions.  Controversially, regarding the Kenniwick Man remains, (circa 9,000 years ago), the 9th District Court of Appeals denied of four northwest NDN tribes to claim the Kenniwick remains as their ancestor. Due to distinctive differences between caucasiod and eurasian physiologies. They further ruled that the remains could not be defined as Native American under the NAGPRA law. The NAGPRA law refers to the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, 25 U.S.C. 3001.

Since there is dispute regarding cultural connections between 10,000+ and 9,000 or less years ago, (those separate and distinct cultures which were not NDN and yet, were extant), we can either pursue or, let this aspect drop.
So....the 9th District Court of Appeals agrees that there are atleast some folks who are not my relatives?....Kool.

I am familiar with N.A.G.P.R.A.

I was of the assumption that the question was who I considered a relative.....not some U.S. courts opinion on the matter. My bad.

falcon9

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2012, 03:07:13 pm »
So....the 9th District Court of Appeals agrees that there are atleast some folks who are not my relatives?....Kool.

Amazingly, so folks aren't my direct descendants/relatives either.

I am familiar with N.A.G.P.R.A.

Cool.

I was of the assumption that the question was who I considered a relative.....not some U.S. courts opinion on the matter. My bad.

My take on the matter was that courts consider evidence when making rulings.  If there's a gap in evidence linking one  prior separate and distinct culture to another latter one, then any claims to the contrary would not be substantiated.  Anyone can presume 'lineage' sans evidence however, that doesn't lend validity to such presumptions.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

walksalone11

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2012, 03:38:05 pm »
So....the 9th District Court of Appeals agrees that there are atleast some folks who are not my relatives?....Kool.

Amazingly, so folks aren't my direct descendants/relatives either.

I am familiar with N.A.G.P.R.A.

Cool.

I was of the assumption that the question was who I considered a relative.....not some U.S. courts opinion on the matter. My bad.

My take on the matter was that courts consider evidence when making rulings.  If there's a gap in evidence linking one  prior separate and distinct culture to another latter one, then any claims to the contrary would not be substantiated.  Anyone can presume 'lineage' sans evidence however, that doesn't lend validity to such presumptions.
A quick search on google with the key words "cherokee" and "10,000 years" produced 430,000 results

Evidence-------> http://www.ncmarkers.com/Markers.aspx?ct=ddl&sp=search&k=Markers&sv=Q-13%20-%20CHEROKEE%20INDIAN%20RESERVATION


 The ancestors of the Cherokee sparsely occupied an area of 140,000 square miles across the southeastern United States. With a culture dating back 10,000 years, the Cherokee had developed linguistics shortly before the first millennium of the Common Era.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0713/p11s01-trgn.html

Cherokee, N.C., is a window into another time and culture. It offers an opportunity to see the world through the eyes of this tribe, which can trace its presence back to 10,000 BC. Small groups camping in the Southern Appalachians left behind stone tools and artifacts that have been dated from that period.



http://allthingscherokee.com/travel_kituwah_mound.html

- Kituhwa, which is often referred to as the "mother town of the Cherokee." Archaeologists date the site back to nearly 10,000 years ago.



http://www.ajc.com/news/cherokee/trove-of-artifacts-in-1372024.html

officials hope to exhibit the findings ranging from 10,000-year-old spear tips to a rifle used by the Cherokees at The Funk Heritage Center at Reinhardt University.

sigmapi1501

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2012, 03:43:49 pm »
Ummmm, yea right. How could they be here 4,000 years before god created the earth?

falcon9

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2012, 03:46:41 pm »
A quick search on google with the key words "cherokee" and "10,000 years" produced 430,000 results

Evidence-------> http://www.ncmarkers.com/Markers.aspx?ct=ddl&sp=search&k=Markers&sv=Q-13%20-%20CHEROKEE%20INDIAN%20RESERVATION

  The ancestors of the Cherokee sparsely occupied an area of 140,000 square miles across the southeastern United States. With a culture dating back 10,000 years, the Cherokee had developed linguistics shortly before the first millennium of the Common Era.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0713/p11s01-trgn.html

'Indigenous Amerindian genetic studies indicate that the "colonizing founders" of the Americas emerged from a single-source ancestral population that evolved in isolation, likely in "Beringia", (the posited land/ice bridge connecting Siberia with Alaska; which means these people migrated from Siberia). Age estimates based on Y-chromosome micro-satellite place diversity of the American Haplogroup Q1a3a (Y-DNA) at around 10,000 to 15,000 years ago, (this would be the "Clovis" migrations - there were at least three such distinct migrations traced back along that 5,000 year interval and perhaps earlier still).  These migrations would account from tribes spreading out from the Pacific Northwest following game and a slowly improving climate as the wandered southeast.' -- excerpted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas

The Cherokee, (and other "first nations", which weren't actually "first" as distinct cultures), derived from such secondary, tertiary and so on migrations from the PNW area.  Indeed, if one goes back 10,000 to 15,000 years ago, nearly all extant, (and now extinct), tribes developed from the Clovis migration, (so, they're either Siberians or, came from elsewhere to Siberia even earlier than 15,000 years ago). Based upon the distribution of Amerind languages and language families, a movement of tribes along the Rocky Mountain foothills and eastward across the Great Plains to the Atlantic seaboard is assumed to have occurred at least some 13,000 to 10,000 years ago.

Cherokee, N.C., is a window into another time and culture. It offers an opportunity to see the world through the eyes of this tribe, which can trace its presence back to 10,000 BC. Small groups camping in the Southern Appalachians left behind stone tools and artifacts that have been dated from that period.

http://allthingscherokee.com/travel_kituwah_mound.html

- Kituhwa, which is often referred to as the "mother town of the Cherokee." Archaeologists date the site back to nearly 10,000 years ago.

http://www.ajc.com/news/cherokee/trove-of-artifacts-in-1372024.html

officials hope to exhibit the findings ranging from 10,000-year-old spear tips to a rifle used by the Cherokees at The Funk Heritage Center at Reinhardt University.

Interesting; I'll have a look at those and examine any supporting evidence.  Thanks, 'walks'.  I did look into those links and a bit deeper as well.  I found that, while such evidence of the existence and migration patterns, (such as of the "Clovis" migrations), indicates that nomadic tribes probably did derive from these migrations from Siberia/"Beringia", none of that evidence definitively provides that any of those tribes were distinctly and culturally "Cherokee".  As mentioned, there's a strong case for such early tribes as the Iroquois, Cherokee, Choctaw, Apache and others deriving from the Clovis migrations however, the assumption that the same evidence for that supposition supports a jump to the conclusion that it is specifically evidence of the Cherokee being a 10,000 year old distinct culture is unwarranted.

The same thing happened with the Kenniwick Man controversy in that an assumption was made that, since the Kenniwick remains were 9,000 or so years old, that they must be "native american", (when in fact, they were from the Siberian/Beringa migratory people of the Clovis era and not distinctly ancestrial to any specific tribe now extant).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 02:46:44 am by falcon9 »
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

walksalone11

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2012, 03:54:09 pm »
Ummmm, yea right. How could they be here 4,000 years before god created the earth?
Because "God" didn't....a water beetle did, duhhhh

and yeah, the 6,000 years claim is bogus too.

falcon9

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Re: North Carolina... Why?
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2012, 02:59:09 am »
Ummmm, yea right. How could they be here 4,000 years before god created the earth?

Because "God" didn't....a water beetle did, duhhhh

Or, an "invisible pink unicorn" did it ...

and yeah, the 6,000 years claim is bogus too.

Years ago, I had one bright-eyed 'believer' inform me of her belief that, for 'g-d', a "day" was one billion years long and that for the first 3 1/2 such "days", (=3.5 billion years), the universe was being assembled from a kit, apparently.  For the next 3 1/2 "days", the earth was constructed by 'union labor', (thus accounting for it taking so long and the 3.5 billion year age of the earth).

I recall staring into her vacant eyes and considering not letting her know that her "hypothesis" required 'reasoning backward' from the conclusion to the premise, (instead of from the premise, through syllogisms and arriving at a conclusion).  Instead, I think I coughed and left her vicinity before that zombie bit me.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

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