Ponder this for a sec

[falcon9]

Falcon9...
Even i know id have a better chance recruiting a prostitute ...  

Isn't it your specious mythology which suggested that "Mary Magdalene" was a prostitute, (which might further suggest that 'hay-suse' was a "john")?  Regardless, such religious mythology is based upon hearsay, not evidence, (which applies to the entire xtian religion and off-shoot cults such as the jw's).  "Faith" is not evidence, it's a synonym for "belief" in spite of a lack of evidence.  Therefore, faith/belief is an inherently irrational position to hold.  It would be like asking you if 'you still beat your wife?', (presuming that you don't), or making any false accusation without providing substantiating evidence to back it up.  Would you prefer that someone be able to accuse you of embezzlement, based entirely upon their 'belief' alone that you embezzled, (sans any supporting evidence of such an accusation)?

The bottomline is that empty/blind faith is an insufficient basis to just take someone's 'word' for it, just as an empty allegation is a false accusation if there is no evidence to substantiate it.  The conclusion that faith/belief is an inherently irrational position is logically valid because the inverse, ('faith/belief is rational'), is not logical.  This premise and the conclusion stemming from it invalidates any specious religious argument which rests upon an inherently irrational faith/belief basis.

"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people"
-- Hugh Laurie (Gregory House)

[queenofnines]

Wow you guys are brutal!!!! You act like a person who can't spell also can't think !!

Not in all cases, but in many of them, yes.


Hitch, I think you will get along swimmingly with teflonfanatic (another JW fundie).

[hitch0403]

Falcon2...if you were a JW,from what u write here it looks like when u went to the meetings you didnt pay attn.

After Armageddon everyone isnt resurrected.

After Satan is loosed after 1000 yrs why do you think God permits that?People <unrighteous & righteous>resurrected will be given a chance to decide if they wanna serve God or not.Bible says Satan brings down as many as the sands of the sea.

JWs are imperfect people also.We all inherited sin from Adam.The apostels argued who was the greatest among themselves.Jesus rebuked them.

Why dont you try looking up the word discernment and grasp what it means?

And as far as 5 yr olds going to the meetings...Jesus was all for teaching the children.My boy....you get an F- for what u learned.

[Falconer02]

Falcon2...if you were a JW,from what u write here it looks like when u went to the meetings you didnt pay attn.

Actually I did. And that's why I'm not a JW anymore. It takes a very weak-minded person to fall for this type of belief. Again, your belief system is built upon fraud and false prophecies, so why would I even care if I didn't get the technicalities right? It's like saying I failed to make the same magical alchemy potion you did when I know magical alchemy is pseudoscience. I find it rather fascinating that you are focusing on the needless technicalities and not the glaring problems with the origins of your church. Perhaps you should read Zechariah 13:3 and see what the bible says about false prophets.

After Satan is loosed after 1000 yrs why do you think God permits that?People <unrighteous & righteous>resurrected will be given a chance to decide if they wanna serve God or not.Bible says Satan brings down as many as the sands of the sea.

Please explain to me why a god, who apparently loves mankind, would let the evil original antagonist loose on mankind again. Explain how that's not malevolence. This is of course after you explain how your beliefs aren't built upon false prophecies.

JWs are imperfect people also.

And you preaching here is only strengthening this quoted sentence. Stop avoiding the obvious problems I keep bringing up. It will help defuse this.

And as far as 5 yr olds going to the meetings...Jesus was all for teaching the children.My boy....you get an F- for what u learned.

I don't recall hearing Jesus forcing 5-year-old kids to sit down every tuesday, thursday, saturday, and sunday for 1-3 hours each time and study ancient wordy mythology against their will. Perhaps you could enlighten me on the part where that happened? Or do I receive a failing grade "just cuz"?

[hitch0403]

So Falconer02 what are your beliefs now?Do you believe in God or the bible?

Or do you just disagree with the way God has handled things?

I wanna ask you where would mankind be if God had destroyed A&E immediately if you believe bible to be truth.I am trying to figure out if you have a problem with Gods organization or just the bible in general.It seems to me you dont agree with Gods handling of situation EX:Him loosing Satan.

There is also NOTHING wrong teaching a child truth.Scripture backs it up completely...but ahhhhhhh...back to sq 1.If you dont agree with biblewhat good is telling you that.I use scripture to defend the truth.You guys use mens doctrines and your independent attitudes.

And i am sure this post will be blood and the sharks will follow.I am speaking to you.I really hope they stay away.I have had enuff of their *rap.Im not here to debate or recruit many that are here for their own rewards.

And before i forget..SIG....i realize Allergic,Queenie and the other bird are watching if you got too chummy with me...phony.I am surprised you admitted God might exist.

[falcon9]

There is also NOTHING wrong teaching a child truth.Scripture backs it up completely...

That's a circular, (and therefore, false), 'justification' for brain-washing the very young. I remain in strong opposition to the religious brain-washing of young people and consider it a form of child abuse.

I really hope they stay away.I have had enuff of their *rap.Im not here to debate or recruit many ...

If you're not in the Debate + Discuss subforum to debate and discuss, then your evangelizing is intended to "recruit", (in line with the insidious policy of your particular religious cult).  'Somehow', it never seems to occur to you fundie religious fanatics that others can & do find your "crap" as obnoxious and santimonious as any judeo-xtian religious proselytizing.

"The fundamentalists, by 'knowing' the answers before they start, and then forcing nature into the straitjacket of their discredited preconceptions, lie outside the domain of science --or any honest intellectual inquiry."
-- Stephen J. Gould

[Falconer02]

So Falconer02 what are your beliefs now?Do you believe in God or the bible?

I do not. I believe the proper terminology for myself would be "agnostic-atheist" a la one who knows there's no logical argument for defined gods and therefore finds it pointless to blindly follow any of them. That's not to say I'm unwilling to change my point-of-view. If the evidence presented itself in a fair and realistic manner (for instance Zues coming down and throwing lightning), I'd willingly admit I was incorrect on the matter of deities.

Or do you just disagree with the way God has handled things?

I think anyone who has read the bible with an open mind should know that the Abrahamic god defies all immoral behavior. He did a pretty shabby job of putting things together too.
"I'll make the earth for the humans! 70% salt water! Ever-shifting plate tectonics! Dangerous sunrays! Desertification! They'll fit right in!"

I wanna ask you where would mankind be if God had destroyed A&E immediately if you believe bible to be truth.I am trying to figure out if you have a problem with Gods organization or just the bible in general.It seems to me you dont agree with Gods handling of situation EX:Him loosing Satan.

I think everyone should have a problem with a god who gets mad at his creations for petty and illogical things-- especially those that this god malevolently created. A+E didn't have the knowledge of right and wrong, ate the fruit, got punished, and then were given the knowledge of right and wrong by the god. Talk about stacking the deck! And I also have problems with 'organizations' that hover over problems like they don't exist (such as your own-- you still haven't touched my previous questions about the fraud).

There is also NOTHING wrong teaching a child truth.Scripture backs it up completely...but ahhhhhhh...back to sq 1.If you dont agree with biblewhat good is telling you that.I use scripture to defend the truth.You guys use mens doctrines and your independent attitudes.

Alright. I'll go with those evil doctrines and attitudes like the United States Department of Health and Human Services which studies and constantly attempts to prevent child abuse. You can go with your ancient bible which tells you to murder your kids (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

I will agree with you and say that there's nothing wrong with teaching a child truth (given normal non-threatening situations). However since you now have the potential to research your own religion and find the problems I have already discussed, it would be very hypocritical of you to continue teaching any children that your beliefs are 'truth'. Unless of course you can refute the past claims I have made...

[hitch0403]

Falcon9...there is a difference to me between debate and discuss.I have knowledge of the bible and have been taught and i still have questions why etc God might have done things.

Debate brings into account a personal satisfaction trying to be right.Jesus said the Pharissees liked being seen praying and thus by doing so they got their reward.The bible says to walk with Jehovah modestly.

Im far from perfect and i react to my perception of what others write.And i might get out of line at times too.I dont have a problem discussing the matter as a gentleman.But my spontaneity and perception make me react.I will defend Gods organization more so then defend myself because i feel i owe them that at least.We can clown around and try to be clever and witty which in itself i enjoy doing but again i am not going to apologize for having knowledge.

If i have a different opinion of the matter as you do id like to get into the whys and hows without slinging mud,but when right away you correct my spelling and writing a sentence you draw first blood and my defenses go up and we turn this into a mud slinging war instead of a discussion.

[hitch0403]

Falcon2,again i am gonna try to use bible to answer some of your posts.

A&E were created and put into a paradise.They were NOT deprived of anything.God had every right to test their love and loyalty to them.He told them of consequence if the dis-obeyed.Satan made it sound like God was holding somthing back.Hence Eve let her selfish heart get the best of her and sinned.Adam followed,NOT that he was deceived but he obviously loved Even more then God.And of course Satan wanted to be a god himself and thats why he sinned too.

The devil raised many questions in Eden and then again in Job.

Remember God told Adam,"cursed is the ground on your account"And the bible says God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth.

I hate global warming now.I know its because of pollution which God cannot be blamed for.

Read Rev 4:11....without God we wouldnt exist.Doesnt he deserve some credit?And then after A&E sinned he put into a plan that would save mankind otherwise we would die.He went so far to see his son Jesus sacrificed and treated like a criminal.And of course Jesus deserves kudos too for doing what he did and remember he also did it to Vindicate Jehovah as the TRUE God.

[hitch0403]

LOL...before its brought up...i see many typos in my post....PLEASE FORGIVE ME!!!

Hopefully when i wrote Even you know i meant Eve....or i meant to say him instead of them after i just re-read it but i guess im lazy to proof read before i hit send.

Just trying to stay ahead of some.

Doing my part to prevent the mud slinging.

Again it all comes down to whether you wanna take bible as truth or not.We can discuss this and if you feel bible isnt truth you are entitled to feel that way.But some come out with this "magical guy in the sky"stuff that is an insult to the one presenting it.Let your yes mean yes and no mean no.It really is that simple.

[falcon9]

Falcon9...there is a difference to me between debate and discuss.I have knowledge of the bible and have been taught

There's also a difference between debating and religious pontification; between discussion and simplistic evangelizing.  For me, this is not some theological discussion about how many hypothetical 'angels can dance on the heads of pins'. Knowledge of religious hearsay has almost no value beyond an academic analysis of the basis of self-deception, (what the religious adherents call "faith/belief").

This is an FC d+d forum, not an exclusive platform for religious proselytization.   

[Falconer02]

A&E were created and put into a paradise.They were NOT deprived of anything.God had every right to test their love and loyalty to them.He told them of consequence if the dis-obeyed.Satan made it sound like God was holding somthing back.Hence Eve let her selfish heart get the best of her and sinned.Adam followed,NOT that he was deceived but he obviously loved Even more then God.And of course Satan wanted to be a god himself and thats why he sinned too.

1.) They were deprived of the knowledge of right and wrong. They were only given it after they made the mistake set there by the malevolent god. It says this in the bible. If you don't think that's unfair, you were obviously never given the knowledge of right and wrong! lol
2.) You're discussing a story that has a magical talking snake in it. Think about that.

The devil raised many questions in Eden and then again in Job.

Are you saying questioning things is a bad thing? I'd highly recommend avoiding the Job myth in this discussion unless you want proof that your god is evil. You have been warned!

hate global warming now.I know its because of pollution which God cannot be blamed for.

What about the things I already brought up? Plate tectonics, desertification, volcanoes, hurricanes, etc. these have been happening forever and cannot be blames on us. What about Tunguska? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event

without God we wouldnt exist.Doesnt he deserve some credit?And then after A&E sinned he put into a plan that would save mankind otherwise we would die.He went so far to see his son Jesus sacrificed and treated like a criminal.And of course Jesus deserves kudos too for doing what he did and remember he also did it to Vindicate Jehovah as the TRUE God.

I already brought up basic things that could improve mankinds existence exponentially. The fact that you hovered over it is peculiar. Besides, how do you know your specific god did all this? Because the bible told you so? That's circular logic and therefore is furthest from a sound argument. Might I bring up AGAIN that you've completely avoided my original questions which now shows that you're hiding something. I think we can all conclude you just are afraid to confront the actual truth of the matters and admit that your religion has a ton of faults.

He went so far to see his son Jesus sacrificed and treated like a criminal

If this Jesus story is true, why do so many other characters through history (many of which happened way before the Jesus myth) share his same story?
http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/default.htm

Again it all comes down to whether you wanna take bible as truth or not.We can discuss this and if you feel bible isnt truth you are entitled to feel that way.

I think it comes down to if one wants to do some actual history surrounding your religion or not. You seem to be avoiding that at all costs which shows an extreme weakness. Is it because you'd rather not know the truth? Is it because you do know the major flaws and just don't want to discuss them? Please stop cherry-picking what you want to respond to and face my original questions.

But some come out with this "magical guy in the sky"stuff that is an insult to the one presenting it.

I apologize. Perhaps you'd like a more biblically-accurate description of your genocidal child-killing plague-infesting jealous paranoid-schizophrenic  god?

[hitch0403]

Falcon2...sorry but i am not hiding anything.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.The human race is imperfect.INCLUDING Gods people.

Obviously you dont agree with how God has handled the situation when you wanna believe God exists.You dont agree that HIM warning A&E was enuff for them to test their fate after Satan deceived Eve.You dont wanna agree cursed is the ground on your account and mans pollution is enuff for volcanoes etc.And Remember,sinning also deprived mankind of Gods protection.

Do you have children?What would they think if you warned them of something and you said you would discipline them if they dis-obeyed and then you didnt follow thru?

The universe and the earth belong to Jehovah.He decides with the best interest for his creation what is right.Yet we have freedom of choice.You wanna live forever and NOT acknowledge that.Again thats Satans argument in Eden.Independence.Take a look at the earth and tell me its bbeen a success.

[hitch0403]

And then people get upset with Gods allowence of wickedness.Why didnt he stop this war etc?Time was needed for proof of ALL time so this will  never be questioned again.NO ONE can ever question God and say we can rule ourselves better without your help.6000 years of death,greed,wickedness etc is there for proof that "Man has dominated himself to his own injury"

Many governments have been tried by man.....many world powers starting with Egpyt.....ALL FAIL!!

[falcon9]

NO ONE can ever question God 

I question those who make such religious claims and never produce any attributable evidence to back them up.  These are merely specious religious beliefs which have no bearing upon experential reality. I'd question 'g-d' directly but, his number was never in service at any time -
all anyone really gets is the faith-blinded answering service and they're winging it with their empty religious opinions, are unable to take a message and voice-mail, ("prayer rituals"), land in an empty mailbox, (the self-deception of the 'true believer').

"Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain." - Gene Roddenberry