What Is Your Evidence?

[elandry]

As to the cultural influences-- we didn't have a tv. I was also home schooled, back when "socialization' was not considered essential to development, so I had few friends. I agree entirely that 9 year olds have little experience processing anything-- that does not change the fact, that at that age, such an event would seem miraculous by definition.

The possibilities suggested were not intended to be all-inclusive.  For instance, children are influenced by contact with their parents, (even if there were no overt religious proselytizations detected by a nine-year old), or books - even if home-schooled.  Many things seem "miraculous" to nine-year olds; such perceptions are not necessarily indicative of 'miracules'.

I have met several other people who died, and were revived, and experienced nothing. These cases are actually the most fascinating, because one would assume that they didn't suffer the effects of oxygen deprivation, or if they did, it took a different form. Do you have an opinion on why this would be the case?

Preconceived notions, (especially unconscious ones), can and do have an influence in that regard.  Such preconceptions will vary from person to person, even with some 'socialized' commonalities.  Having "few friends" is significantly different than having none, (or many).  A few friends will have more depth of influence than many friends, (who will have many different perspectives and similarities to 'share', as opposed to smaller pool of friends).  

Were I to speculate further, (as you're requesting), I'd say that some people tend to skepticism more than an unquestioning acceptance of a more "religious" explanation to account for such experiences.

I would agree with your speculation, entirely. If I may ask, do you consider yourself to be a skeptic, as defined by Pyrhho? Or are you a more modern rational skeptic, as defined by Shermer? You seen to incline more towards Shermer, if I have not misread my Skeptical Manifesto. Either way, your critical thinking skills are admirable.

[falcon9]

If I may ask, do you consider yourself to be a skeptic, as defined by Pyrhho? Or are you a more modern rational skeptic, as defined by Shermer? You seen to incline more towards Shermer, if I have not misread my Skeptical Manifesto. Either way, your critical thinking skills are admirable.

Between the two, probably Shermer however, not in any formalized way nor exclusively.  Discerning the differences between a subjective experience and an 'objective' one is more subtle than just defining those two terms.

[Falconer02]

While I am aware of groups that are formalized for people who die and come back, I have met everyone I know through personal contact, over a period of almost thirty years. I started back in the dino days, before the internet  . If you read my reply to falcon, I was not as refined in my choice of words as I should have been, for which I apologize, freely. I do not consider my experience "religious" in nature, as I am not "religious". I merely said I had seen a Higher Being-- perhaps differently evolved, or of a higher evolution would be more precise-- and spoke to it. I also saw angels, not in the religious sense, but in the sense of attendants, or guardians, by definition-- thank you Merriam Webster LOL.

Haha yes I understand completely! I was just sharing my belief on the matter. Either way, they are extremely odd and life-altering experiences for most. I myself am open to the idea of there being metaphysical entities in the universe, but since there's a complete lack of evidence for them (aside from hallucinations it would seem...) I go for the humble opinion of "I don't know what's out there".

generally avoid formalized groups, as I have noticed that the people who join them come from a commonly religious background-- and no offense to anyone religious, I get preached at enough, thank you . Just because a hallucination is medically induced, doesn't mean that an entirely odd experience should be discounted out of hand. It may have no practical application, and may be entirely subjective, but it still might be worthy of investigation from a personal viewpoint. I don't stomp around trying to convince people I saw "God"-- and I also don't stomp around trying to convince people I'm a nut  . And I definitely don't stomp around trying to convince people there is no God, because they get very angry LOL. As you may notice, what should have been a relatively simple explanation is fast turning into a spirited debate, if you will pardon the pun  

Oh definitely. To each his own! If the experience improved your life, I have no quarrels with it and I am nothing but happy for you.

[elandry]

If I may ask, do you consider yourself to be a skeptic, as defined by Pyrhho? Or are you a more modern rational skeptic, as defined by Shermer? You seen to incline more towards Shermer, if I have not misread my Skeptical Manifesto. Either way, your critical thinking skills are admirable.

Between the two, probably Shermer however, not in any formalized way nor exclusively.  Discerning the differences between a subjective experience and an 'objective' one is more subtle than just defining those two terms.

You sound like a mathematician, or a physicist-- 

[falcon9]

If I may ask, do you consider yourself to be a skeptic, as defined by Pyrhho? Or are you a more modern rational skeptic, as defined by Shermer? You seen to incline more towards Shermer, if I have not misread my Skeptical Manifesto. Either way, your critical thinking skills are admirable.

Between the two, probably Shermer however, not in any formalized way nor exclusively.  Discerning the differences between a subjective experience and an 'objective' one is more subtle than just defining those two terms.

You sound like a mathematician, or a physicist-- 

Mathematics was a necessary pre-req. for the physics courses taken however, I currently hold neither degrees, (studies having been interrupted by military service and never formally resumed).  With the advent of the internet, (both the non-public precurser and the worldwide net available to the public now), I've been able to expand the depth of study and practice in certain areas to a degree which exceeds academic degrees.

The study and practice of "logic", (both formal and informal), has been an on-going one in my life, (ever since I'd inadvertantly discovered that logic pisses most people off - an unintentional side effect of watching Nimoy render his Spock character on Star Trek at an early age).  My intentional goals are not to *bleep* people off, (amusing as that sometimes is to observe, in a study-of-human-nature way), but to encourage others to question their own assumptions as I have done.  There are more of those reluctant to do so than not and I find that intriguing.

[momoney555]

MANY SKEPTICS SAY THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE RELIGIOUS ARE JUST WEAK PEOPLE  WHO NEED A CRUTCH TO LEAN ON AND THEIR RELIGION IS JUST A FARCE. DO YOU HAVE EVIDENCE IN YOUR LIFE THAT GOD IS REAL?   HAVE YOU EVER EXPERIENCED OR WITNESSED A MIRACLE OR ENCOUNTERED AN ANGEL?


My Own Evidence:

Numerous times throughout my life, I have received money from very unexpected sources as an answer to prayer.  The miraculous thing about it was that the amount of money I received would turn out to be the exact amount (to the penny) to cover the need I had prayed about.  Throughout my life, this has also happened in response to prayer for better jobs, a house, a new car, a lost loved one returning home.  Of course I cant say that every situation I have prayed about turned out like I wanted it to.  The answer to some prayers has been "no", but I do know my prayers have all been heard and are still being  heard.

My evidence: I am not religious and never have been. However, I have died twice, both times for 7 minutes and 32 seconds. There is definitely a higher being-- I saw it and spoke to it. Have seen angels too. I know literally hundreds of people like me, including atheists, who have died and come back.This is what we have in common:
All of us saw something entirely different, and for those that have gone twice or more, each time was different.
None of us could really explain fully what we saw and learned, and we all agree trying to explain it to others is like explaining a rainbow to someone who is blind from birth.
All of us was given a choice to stay there or come back here-- no strings attached.

All of us have ended up spending our time here since in the service of others, in one way or another.

And all of us are HOMESICK. We get together and comfort each other, especially on those anniversaries--none of us regrets coming back, but all of us would give ANYTHING to go back, for just a moment. Just to feel the most amazing, intimate feeling anyone can imagine-- something far beyond love, beyond anything. Every experience here is flat, in a way.  I took yesterday off and just cried 

But I wouldn't have missed it for the world 
Religion and God are two entirely separate things. A higher power had a hand in making this universe. A tiny piece of that is in every living thing. Man tries to understand God, but because we are alive and human, we can't really. So man invented religion to try to build a bridge between what we see and know to be true in the physical world, and what we cannot understand in the meta-physical world.

That is amazing.  After an experience like you have had, I'm sure there is nothing that could shake your belief in a higher power.  However, your proof will not necessarily convince others. Anyone who has ever had a faith affirming experience never forgets it, because it is awesome. It transcends logic, it is unexplainable. 


It is Very true that religion and God are two entirely separate things.  Religion/christianity is not Gods idea, it is man's idea, about God so naturally it is flawed and not perfect, like everything man creates.

[Abrupt]

Your dyslexia ...

... Has nothing to do with your abject stupidity, nor with my ability to reason, (something which escapes you even now).

I am doing you a favor here by bringing this up by giving you a potential excuse as to why you could be so wrong in your post and not realize it.  I made an entirely secular point and you countered with religious ad hominem.  I pointed this out so that even someone as blind as you would be aware and you countered again with arguments involving faith.  I pointed this out again and gave you the way out and spoke to you like you were a young child so that you might finally understand.  Now you fully point out that it was not dyslexia that caused your confusion so that must mean it was 'lunacy' as I suggested as the alternative.  Well, okay, if you would rather have failed in comprehension due to being a lunatic instead of being dyslexic then so be it, lunatic.

If you care to think back you could not show one single lie of me ...

As previously stated, your lying about your prior lies constitute new lies.  This means that you're either a compulsive or, pathological liar, (this would have to be determined by a mental health professional, should you choose to return to the asylum or, be involuntarily commited).  Not only have a few of your more recent lies been numbered for handy reference, you keep adding new lies in different threads.

I am undecided here.  You lie so often that I doubt you numbered anything for handy reference.  On the other hand, you are such a stalker that you might have actually recorded the locations of posts of mine for whatever base or perverted reason you have.  Regardless, I am not a liar and have not lied and had you anything like you claim I am sure you would have presented it already instead of fabricating non existent and false suggestions.   As I have done repeatedly before -- and always to my vindication -- I once again call you out!

I know way too much and am a pure thinker at my core. 

No, you don't.  You merely possess a mistaken belief, (like your religious ones), that you "know" more than you do.  Your thinking is neither "pure" nor clear, let alone logical.  You're a self-agrandizing idiot who looks things up online and substitutes a pretence of knowledge for it's actuality.  Those religious superstitions you cling to are neither rational nor, examples of a "pure thinker"; they exemplify a degree of self-delusion and cognitive dissonance common to religious adherents who are blinded by their faith.

And what you reveal of yourself in the above post is most interesting.  You give away quite a bit about yourself in your attacks, just as much as you do in your defenses.  I warned you before to consider how your close guarded nature did nothing but to highlight your own vulnerabilities and naturally I assumed you would be wise enough to apply such awareness to your other actions as well.  That you haven't is fairly apparent.  My analytical nature is the bane of your dishonest, prejudicial, and nugatory rhetoric.  I am not bragging about myself as you mistakenly assume.  I am simply telling you that I am quite aware of what you already know to be true.

[jseiden]

  Sorry my friend but you can not pray for money.  Go out and make it!!!! Havent you heard money doesnt grow on trees.

[falcon9]

You lie so often that I doubt you numbered anything for handy reference. 

I'm not lying about your penchant for lying and can produce your latest lies, numbered for your inconvenience. I'll do so at my convenience, fundie liar.

On the other hand, you are such a stalker that you might have actually recorded the locations of posts of mine for whatever base or perverted reason you have. 

Replying to your specious loads of unsupported nonsense is not "stalking", unless you're engaging in another one of your moronic attempts to redefine words.  That pattern of yours has been tedious for some time now, is it the best that can emerge from the dimness of your wit?

Regardless, I am not a liar and have not lied ...

Well, that's the most recent of your lies, (number four, counting the first two numbered ones and a third, not numbered because it was another false claim of your not lying, right after you overtly lied in lie#2).

... and had you anything like you claim I am sure you would have presented it already instead of fabricating non existent and false suggestions.   As I have done repeatedly before -- and always to my vindication -- I once again call you out!

I don't dance to the tune of a mind-blinded fundie on the run from the authorities.  As I stated, I'll present your numbered lies at my convience and your inconvenience.

And what you reveal of yourself in the above post is most interesting. 

Anything you imagine was "revealed" would be more of your fabricated falsehoods than something extant.  This is your pattern of deception; to construct strawmen to argue against because you cannot refute the actual rebuttals of your illogical, irrational, faith-based superstitious cow-pies.
 

My analytical nature is ...

... Non-existent bravado. You have demonstrated no such "nature", contrarily, you've demonstrated the opposite time and again.

I am not bragging about myself as you mistakenly assume.

Sure you're not, just like all the other false brags you've spewed weren't bragging. 

I am simply telling you that I am quite aware of what you already know to be true.

I've been well-aware that you're dishonest, irrational and more recently, an abject idiot.  What's not to love?

[falcon9]

elandry (as well as others): You might be interested to know that I, too, have seen angels, god and even the freakin' Grim Reaper. Please refer to: http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=11958.msg147726#msg147726

An interesting thread in that some things never really change and the same debate rages on because the religious adherents are chasing their own tails in circular illogic.

[Abrupt]

You lie so often that I doubt you numbered anything for handy reference. 

I'm not lying about your penchant for lying and can produce your latest lies, numbered for your inconvenience. I'll do so at my convenience, fundie liar.

On the other hand, you are such a stalker that you might have actually recorded the locations of posts of mine for whatever base or perverted reason you have. 

Replying to your specious loads of unsupported nonsense is not "stalking", unless you're engaging in another one of your moronic attempts to redefine words.  That pattern of yours has been tedious for some time now, is it the best that can emerge from the dimness of your wit?

Regardless, I am not a liar and have not lied ...

Well, that's the most recent of your lies, (number four, counting the first two numbered ones and a third, not numbered because it was another false claim of your not lying, right after you overtly lied in lie#2).

... and had you anything like you claim I am sure you would have presented it already instead of fabricating non existent and false suggestions.   As I have done repeatedly before -- and always to my vindication -- I once again call you out!

I don't dance to the tune of a mind-blinded fundie on the run from the authorities.  As I stated, I'll present your numbered lies at my convience and your inconvenience.

And what you reveal of yourself in the above post is most interesting. 

Anything you imagine was "revealed" would be more of your fabricated falsehoods than something extant.  This is your pattern of deception; to construct strawmen to argue against because you cannot refute the actual rebuttals of your illogical, irrational, faith-based superstitious cow-pies.
 

My analytical nature is ...

... Non-existent bravado. You have demonstrated no such "nature", contrarily, you've demonstrated the opposite time and again.

I am not bragging about myself as you mistakenly assume.

Sure you're not, just like all the other false brags you've spewed weren't bragging. 

I am simply telling you that I am quite aware of what you already know to be true.

I've been well-aware that you're dishonest, irrational and more recently, an abject idiot.  What's not to love?

What do you give us here in your reply?  Let us see, denial, ad hominem attacks, dishonesty, deflection.  You have put on your clown shoes again so you can continue to dip, duck, dodge, dive and dance.  So once again, dance for us Clown Boy, dance!

[JediJohnnie]

Falcon9

[falcon9]

What do you give us here in your reply?  

Quashing your diversionary b.s. was done off-handedly.  It remains that you irrational xtian adherents of your superstitious religious belief system have continued to dodge the responsibility of substantiating your specious religious claims/empty declarations.  Either you have no solid evidence to support your claims or, you are unable to do so, (especially without a circular blind faith reference to the the blind faith itself).

[Abrupt]

Falcon9

Ha ha.

[Abrupt]

What do you give us here in your reply?  

Quashing your diversionary b.s. was done off-handedly.  It remains that you irrational xtian adherents of your superstitious religious belief system have continued to dodge the responsibility of substantiating your specious religious claims/empty declarations.  Either you have no solid evidence to support your claims or, you are unable to do so, (especially without a circular blind faith reference to the the blind faith itself).

More ad hominem from you (with as many times as I have explained the definition to you, have you not yet learned it?).  Why must you so often use logical fallacies to try to form your arguments?