Can you really be born evil?

[hitch0403]

OH...1 last thing.Does the bible say poopy bags are allowed in heaven?

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and a tremendous testament of both the ancient Jews and the early Christians and the common denominator between the two - Jesus. But I do not believe that it is the sole and only complete authority of everything.  What I mean is that it does not contain every possible rule, experience, scenario that we might encounter in our earthly lives nor does it give us a complete understanding of what we will experience in Heaven or Hell.  Does it give us imagery and representations that we can relate to based upon our human earthly experience? Yes Absolutely! But it does not give us an absolute and complete blueprint of Heaven or Hell because we cannot fathom the afterlife experience with our limited human minds. So the Bible puts it into images that we can understand and relate to in our own human experiences.


It is with that understanding (and others may disagree) that I believe it is impossible for the Bible to contain every last tiniest detail of what is or isn't awaiting us. Just because the Bible doesn't address the presence of poopy bags in Heaven - I don't believe that is definitive evidence that there are no animals in Heaven.  (This doesn't even consider the idea that whoever and whatever is in Heaven - they aren't there in the same physical earthly bodies. The Bible also doesn't discuss toilets and sanitary sewers, but that isn't definitive proof that people aren't in Heaven).


I'm not saying that there are or are not animals in Heaven - I'm just saying that I don't think the Bible tells us for sure - nor is it meant to tell us for sure. It is intended to teach us how to be good to each other and how to get ourselves and our loved ones into Heaven.


So coming full circle back to the original question - we can never know what is in a person's heart = whether an unborn child or a convicted death row inmate. God is the only true judge and He is the only one with the clean hands to decide whether someone is good or evil and when is the proper time for that individual to be called forward to be judged.


Abortion is wrong. Murder is wrong. Euthanasia is wrong. Capital punishment is wrong. Any act of killing another (absent a justifiable defense - such as self defense or to prevent serious bodily harm to another) is wrong.

First off <and i am sure you know>the poopy bag reference was meant in humor.

I will put some links up for you to decide what truth is.
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/

Let me ask and tell you somethings.

Would you want to serve a God that would punish his creation in a fiery hell?The bible says God is love.And it also says Satan has blinded many a mind to make God look evil by creating false religeon teachings.Remember Jesus said his kingdom was NO part of this world and Satan has been allowed to rule to see where the heart conditions belong to us who we want to rule.

The bible also says ALL scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching reproving and setting matters straight.IOW...it answers everything.

The righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever after God has done away with this Satanic system that has been allowed to rule to see what side people will choose.Life or death.

Why would a loving God create man to die and then go to a heaven or hell.Makes no sense.He should have just made more angels.But the bible says the earth remains forever.He didnt create it for nothing.

Book of Revelation does say 144000 here on earth will rule with Jesus after Armagheddon.The GREATER crowd that survive will look forward to Gods original purpose and turn this planet into a paradise with Gods kingdom ruling from heaven.

Its all there in bible.Just a matter of whose side you are on.

BTW...man is made in Gods image...NOT animals.God told man to have them in his subjection.Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven either.

A spiritual cow????LOL!!I dont think so!!

[lhz123]

No. I don't think so, all of us born like an angel but life's experienced, struggles and circumstances make the people evil.

[Mizzkizz7]

I believe genes play a part in someone being evil and that person circumstances growing up in that particular household. Everyone grows up differently.

[MichelleHW101]

I have to say if there ever was a test to determine if a child was born evil and had the option to abort the fetus, I am going to go with no because I always lean on the side of hope.  To me good and evil (being Jewish both come from G-d) has always been a moral issue and honestly that would be hard to determine by a test.  I mean if you think of all the senseless killings, I think they come down to good people having a moment of uncontrollable anger or sorrow.  A certain twenty year veteran cop never written up or anything goes to the movies and shoots a kid dead because he was pissed the kid was texting during the movie previews.  A guy breaks up with his girlfriend and takes his father's gun then goes to the school shoots it up, then kills his girlfriend then himself.  Just two real life circumstances that would prove the test defaulty from the start, if the goal is to eliminate murderers.  The true answer to this question is to watch Minority Report with Tom Cruise (or a few episodes of that short TV show).  I mean I don't even think serial killers who may start off as early as their teen years are flat out evil.  I don't think anyone really is born evil at the get go.  I think environment, circumstances, beliefs, influences all factor into a person being evil or rather do evil things but pure evil? As in 'a spawn of Satan'? Honestly, I think that is pure Hollywood.  Yes, there are people out there who are brutally evil that can be labeled this, but if you go back to their history it generally is a series of events that lead up too the actual 'going evil' and if any of those events had been altered, the person would not have turned out the way the did.  To not even give them the opportunity to change what the test claims is their nature to me is just wrong.     

[JediJohnnie]

OH...1 last thing.Does the bible say poopy bags are allowed in heaven?

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and a tremendous testament of both the ancient Jews and the early Christians and the common denominator between the two - Jesus. But I do not believe that it is the sole and only complete authority of everything.  What I mean is that it does not contain every possible rule, experience, scenario that we might encounter in our earthly lives nor does it give us a complete understanding of what we will experience in Heaven or Hell.  Does it give us imagery and representations that we can relate to based upon our human earthly experience? Yes Absolutely! But it does not give us an absolute and complete blueprint of Heaven or Hell because we cannot fathom the afterlife experience with our limited human minds. So the Bible puts it into images that we can understand and relate to in our own human experiences.


It is with that understanding (and others may disagree) that I believe it is impossible for the Bible to contain every last tiniest detail of what is or isn't awaiting us. Just because the Bible doesn't address the presence of poopy bags in Heaven - I don't believe that is definitive evidence that there are no animals in Heaven.  (This doesn't even consider the idea that whoever and whatever is in Heaven - they aren't there in the same physical earthly bodies. The Bible also doesn't discuss toilets and sanitary sewers, but that isn't definitive proof that people aren't in Heaven).


I'm not saying that there are or are not animals in Heaven - I'm just saying that I don't think the Bible tells us for sure - nor is it meant to tell us for sure. It is intended to teach us how to be good to each other and how to get ourselves and our loved ones into Heaven.


So coming full circle back to the original question - we can never know what is in a person's heart = whether an unborn child or a convicted death row inmate. God is the only true judge and He is the only one with the clean hands to decide whether someone is good or evil and when is the proper time for that individual to be called forward to be judged.


Abortion is wrong. Murder is wrong. Euthanasia is wrong. Capital punishment is wrong. Any act of killing another (absent a justifiable defense - such as self defense or to prevent serious bodily harm to another) is wrong.

First off <and i am sure you know>the poopy bag reference was meant in humor.

I will put some links up for you to decide what truth is.
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/

Let me ask and tell you somethings.

Would you want to serve a God that would punish his creation in a fiery hell?The bible says God is love.And it also says Satan has blinded many a mind to make God look evil by creating false religeon teachings.Remember Jesus said his kingdom was NO part of this world and Satan has been allowed to rule to see where the heart conditions belong to us who we want to rule.

The bible also says ALL scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching reproving and setting matters straight.IOW...it answers everything.

The righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever after God has done away with this Satanic system that has been allowed to rule to see what side people will choose.Life or death.

Why would a loving God create man to die and then go to a heaven or hell.Makes no sense.He should have just made more angels.But the bible says the earth remains forever.He didnt create it for nothing.

Book of Revelation does say 144000 here on earth will rule with Jesus after Armagheddon.The GREATER crowd that survive will look forward to Gods original purpose and turn this planet into a paradise with Gods kingdom ruling from heaven.

Its all there in bible.Just a matter of whose side you are on.

BTW...man is made in Gods image...NOT animals.God told man to have them in his subjection.Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven either.

A spiritual cow????LOL!!I dont think so!!

"Would you want to serve a God that would punish his creation in a fiery hell?"

Would you want to serve a God who is indifferent to justice and doesn't punish or reward people for their behavior?

[hitch0403]

JJ to put the evil one out of existence forever isnt punishing them where they wont reap the benefits and live forever in a paradise earth or rule with Jesus in heaven?

Living forever under a righteous government isnt a reward?

And if i may,Michelle i guess you dont support bible cos Gods word DEFINITELY supports Satan exists.

Re the 2 of you to save band width cos ive been overt his many times...JW.org and then choose hell or Satan to get bible truths.....or for that matter anyone else cos my gut says JJ or Michelle wouldnt be interested.

[JediJohnnie]

Not everyone deserves to be rewarded. The bible speaks clearly of the punishments of Hell. Jesus Christ Himself referred to Hell in His teachings as often as Heaven.

[hitch0403]

Not everyone deserves to be rewarded. The bible speaks clearly of the punishments of Hell. Jesus Christ Himself referred to Hell in His teachings as often as Heaven.

The God i worship is the God of the bible and it clearly says HE is a God of Love.Jehovah is his name.

Satan is also referred to as a god.......he even made it look like in book of Job Jehovah caused his calamity.

[countrygirl12]

OH...1 last thing.Does the bible say poopy bags are allowed in heaven?

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and a tremendous testament of both the ancient Jews and the early Christians and the common denominator between the two - Jesus. But I do not believe that it is the sole and only complete authority of everything.  What I mean is that it does not contain every possible rule, experience, scenario that we might encounter in our earthly lives nor does it give us a complete understanding of what we will experience in Heaven or Hell.  Does it give us imagery and representations that we can relate to based upon our human earthly experience? Yes Absolutely! But it does not give us an absolute and complete blueprint of Heaven or Hell because we cannot fathom the afterlife experience with our limited human minds. So the Bible puts it into images that we can understand and relate to in our own human experiences.


It is with that understanding (and others may disagree) that I believe it is impossible for the Bible to contain every last tiniest detail of what is or isn't awaiting us. Just because the Bible doesn't address the presence of poopy bags in Heaven - I don't believe that is definitive evidence that there are no animals in Heaven.  (This doesn't even consider the idea that whoever and whatever is in Heaven - they aren't there in the same physical earthly bodies. The Bible also doesn't discuss toilets and sanitary sewers, but that isn't definitive proof that people aren't in Heaven).


I'm not saying that there are or are not animals in Heaven - I'm just saying that I don't think the Bible tells us for sure - nor is it meant to tell us for sure. It is intended to teach us how to be good to each other and how to get ourselves and our loved ones into Heaven.


So coming full circle back to the original question - we can never know what is in a person's heart = whether an unborn child or a convicted death row inmate. God is the only true judge and He is the only one with the clean hands to decide whether someone is good or evil and when is the proper time for that individual to be called forward to be judged.


Abortion is wrong. Murder is wrong. Euthanasia is wrong. Capital punishment is wrong. Any act of killing another (absent a justifiable defense - such as self defense or to prevent serious bodily harm to another) is wrong.

First off <and i am sure you know>the poopy bag reference was meant in humor.

I will put some links up for you to decide what truth is.
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/

Let me ask and tell you somethings.

Would you want to serve a God that would punish his creation in a fiery hell?The bible says God is love.And it also says Satan has blinded many a mind to make God look evil by creating false religeon teachings.Remember Jesus said his kingdom was NO part of this world and Satan has been allowed to rule to see where the heart conditions belong to us who we want to rule.

The bible also says ALL scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching reproving and setting matters straight.IOW...it answers everything.

The righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever after God has done away with this Satanic system that has been allowed to rule to see what side people will choose.Life or death.

Why would a loving God create man to die and then go to a heaven or hell.Makes no sense.He should have just made more angels.But the bible says the earth remains forever.He didnt create it for nothing.

Book of Revelation does say 144000 here on earth will rule with Jesus after Armagheddon.The GREATER crowd that survive will look forward to Gods original purpose and turn this planet into a paradise with Gods kingdom ruling from heaven.

Its all there in bible.Just a matter of whose side you are on.

BTW...man is made in Gods image...NOT animals.God told man to have them in his subjection.Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven either.

A spiritual cow????LOL!!I dont think so!!

"Would you want to serve a God that would punish his creation in a fiery hell?"

Would you want to serve a God who is indifferent to justice and doesn't punish or reward people for their behavior?

It is not wrong to defend yourself even if you have to defend yourself up to taking another person's life. You cannot tell me if some thug forces entry in to your home and is raping your young daughter you would stand there and let it happen.  You would do whatever you had to in order to stop the actions.

You can nitpick the Bible to pieces and argue and fight over what every little thing means.  In my opinion, and there seem to be a few on here, people who do this are most likely not saved and have no idea other than knowing the info contained in the Bible.

I know a guy who KNOWS the Bible.  If he dies today he is going to hell.  And he even will tell you this. He will tell you he isn't saved.

Back to the original argument - First off the Bible does not say that only 144,000 people are going to Heaven. Goes back to people interpret things they way they want to see them.  With the orig question I do not even know how this got in to an argument about animals and Heaven.  Oh wait, yeah I do some idiot wanted to use it as a way to attack me based on a previous conversation. lol  The Bible mentions animals being in Heaven in more than one place.  When God first created the Earth it was paradise until sin entered the world.  There were animals there.  Either way, I am not sure why idiots want to try to fight about something that doesn't even matter.  You need to worry more about whether you are going to be there and no so much about what somebody else thinks or believes.  At the end of the day does it even matter?

[UGetPaid]

It is not wrong to defend yourself even if you have to defend yourself up to taking another person's life. You cannot tell me if some thug forces entry in to your home and is raping your young daughter you would stand there and let it happen.  You would do whatever you had to in order to stop the actions.

Not sure if this part was directed at me, but on the chance that it was, you are 100% correct and I am in full agreement. Self defense or the defense of another from imminent bodily harm is absolutely legitimate in taking the life of another person.  I didn't spell it out completely, but that was what I meant when I said: "(absent a justifiable defense - such as self defense or to prevent serious bodily harm to another)".


If I encountered a man hurting my wife or child in a violent way, I would do anything (including killing him) to protect my wife or child - with the goal/intention = to stop the harm.  But to kill that man "after the fact" when the violent act is no longer being committed (as much as I might want to do that) is wrong.


Vengeance or retribution killing (including capital punishment) is murder in my opinion.  But like you said, we are getting pretty far away from the original post.

[countrygirl12]

No. I don't think so, all of us born like an angel but life's experienced, struggles and circumstances make the people evil.

Actually we aren't. We are born with a sinful nature.

[countrygirl12]

I have to say if there ever was a test to determine if a child was born evil and had the option to abort the fetus, I am going to go with no because I always lean on the side of hope.  To me good and evil (being Jewish both come from G-d) has always been a moral issue and honestly that would be hard to determine by a test.  I mean if you think of all the senseless killings, I think they come down to good people having a moment of uncontrollable anger or sorrow.  A certain twenty year veteran cop never written up or anything goes to the movies and shoots a kid dead because he was pissed the kid was texting during the movie previews.  A guy breaks up with his girlfriend and takes his father's gun then goes to the school shoots it up, then kills his girlfriend then himself.  Just two real life circumstances that would prove the test defaulty from the start, if the goal is to eliminate murderers.  The true answer to this question is to watch Minority Report with Tom Cruise (or a few episodes of that short TV show).  I mean I don't even think serial killers who may start off as early as their teen years are flat out evil.  I don't think anyone really is born evil at the get go.  I think environment, circumstances, beliefs, influences all factor into a person being evil or rather do evil things but pure evil? As in 'a spawn of Satan'? Honestly, I think that is pure Hollywood.  Yes, there are people out there who are brutally evil that can be labeled this, but if you go back to their history it generally is a series of events that lead up too the actual 'going evil' and if any of those events had been altered, the person would not have turned out the way the did.  To not even give them the opportunity to change what the test claims is their nature to me is just wrong.     

I am curious as to why you always blot out GOD when you mention His name?

It is not wrong to defend yourself even if you have to defend yourself up to taking another person's life. You cannot tell me if some thug forces entry in to your home and is raping your young daughter you would stand there and let it happen.  You would do whatever you had to in order to stop the actions.

Not sure if this part was directed at me, but on the chance that it was, you are 100% correct and I am in full agreement. Self defense or the defense of another from imminent bodily harm is absolutely legitimate in taking the life of another person.  I didn't spell it out completely, but that was what I meant when I said: "(absent a justifiable defense - such as self defense or to prevent serious bodily harm to another)".


If I encountered a man hurting my wife or child in a violent way, I would do anything (including killing him) to protect my wife or child - with the goal/intention = to stop the harm.  But to kill that man "after the fact" when the violent act is no longer being committed (as much as I might want to do that) is wrong.


Vengeance or retribution killing (including capital punishment) is murder in my opinion.  But like you said, we are getting pretty far away from the original post.

It was just a comment. I was just saying I don't think a person will go to Hell for defending their life even if it means you have to end another life. I don't think you are suppose to just lay back and let a man come in to your house and r-a-p-e you and beat you and kill you if you have the means to stop it.

And it is hard to say on the last part.  Yes I agree after the threat is gone it is probably not right to kill them.  BUT if somebody hurt your daughter or wife and then killed them you may very well if you got the opportunity later seek revenge.  That is the nature of people. I still do not believe you would go to hell if you had been saved. But that gets in to a complete new argument for this crowd. lol

[hitch0403]

I dont expect everyone to understand this...if 1 does it was worth putting up.

Once a person is saved, is he always saved?

Jude 5, RS: “I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” (Italics added.)

Matt. 24:13, RS: “He who endures to the end will be saved.” (So a person’s final salvation is not determined at the moment that he begins to put faith in Jesus.)

Phil. 2:12, RS: “As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (This was addressed to “the saints,” or holy ones, at Philippi, as stated in Philippians 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured.)

[hitch0403]

It is not wrong to defend yourself even if you have to defend yourself up to taking another person's life. You cannot tell me if some thug forces entry in to your home and is raping your young daughter you would stand there and let it happen.  You would do whatever you had to in order to stop the actions.

Not sure if this part was directed at me, but on the chance that it was, you are 100% correct and I am in full agreement. Self defense or the defense of another from imminent bodily harm is absolutely legitimate in taking the life of another person.  I didn't spell it out completely, but that was what I meant when I said: "(absent a justifiable defense - such as self defense or to prevent serious bodily harm to another)".


If I encountered a man hurting my wife or child in a violent way, I would do anything (including killing him) to protect my wife or child - with the goal/intention = to stop the harm.  But to kill that man "after the fact" when the violent act is no longer being committed (as much as I might want to do that) is wrong.


Vengeance or retribution killing (including capital punishment) is murder in my opinion.  But like you said, we are getting pretty far away from the original post.

the Scriptures give a person the right to defend himself or others against bodily harm. However, they give no authorization for armed conflicts or the taking of human life in efforts during daytime to protect material possessions.

[hitch0403]

So let us sum this topic up even tho we strayed a bit.

Just as the first 2 humans born in the womb of Eve,Cain and Abel...no one knew how they would turn out...Cain being a murderer and Abel being approved by God...no one knew during Eves pregnancy how they would turn out.

As said here,environment,health and mental issues could play a part in their development.Great example is Judas.Honored to be a follower of Jesus.He loved being a thief more and Jesus said it would have been better if he wasnt born cos he sinned against Gods holy spirit where NO forgivness is given.But someone like King David was punished for his terrible sin but God granted forgivness cos David repented.