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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: shernajwine on July 17, 2010, 08:42:53 pm
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Until recently I had never heard the term Oneness and I attend a church that believes in Oneness!! lol
I'm interested to see a debate where people are not questioning God's existence but getting involved in searching out His word! ;D
So, if you (like me) never heard Oneness or maybe you never heard of the Trinity here are the basic differences and similarities between the two theologies.
taken from http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/onetrindisagree.htm
Oneness believers and Trinitarians (1) both believe in one God; (2) both believe the Father, Son, and Spirit are God; (3) both confess that the Scripture makes a distinction between Father, Son, and Spirit; (4) both believe the Son of God died on the cross, and not the Father; both believe Jesus was praying to the Father, and not to Himself.
Oneness adherents and Trinitarians differ in that (1).Trinitarians believe the one God consists of three eternal persons, while Oneness adherents believe the one God is only one person; (2) Trinitarians believe the second person of the Trinity became incarnate, while Oneness adherents believe YHWH, the lone person of the Godhead, became incarnate; (3) Trinitarians believe the Son is an eternal person in the Godhead, while Oneness adherents believe the Son is a term referring to YHWH's human existence; (4) Trinitarians understand the Biblical distinction between Father and Son to be a distinction between two divine persons, while Oneness adherents understand the Father-Son distinction to be a distinction between the way God exists in Himself (Father), and the way He has come to exist as man (Son).
Where Trinitarians and Oneness adherents differ is not in the fact that one confesses the full deity of Christ whereas the other does not, but who they understand the divine person of Christ to be: the second of three eternal persons in the Godhead, or the one uni-personal God Himself. Neither questions the full, eternal deity of Christ, but differ on their understanding of that divine person's identity. Oneness theology understands YHWH to be uni-personal in nature. That solitary person Himself became man, not the second person of a tri-personal God. The deity of Christ is known as YHWH before the incarnation, and "Son" only after the incarnation, to distinguish God's new existence as a human being from His continued existence as man. "Father" and "Son" are appellations used to describe the relationship between God's two modes of existence. Trinitarian theology, on the other hand, identifies the deity of the Son as "God the Son," the second person of a tri-personal God who became incarnate. "Father" and "Son" are indicative of two distinct divine persons.
The two theological camps also define "Son" quite differently. Trinitarians understand the term to refer to both a pre-incarnate eternal person, and that same person made flesh in Christ. Oneness adherents understand the term to be applicable to God only after the incarnation. God became Son in the incarnation. "Son" is a relational term that surfaced only after the incarnation to describe God's human existence, and distinguish that mode of His existence from His continued existence as God transcendent. "Son" never refers to the incorporeal Spirit alone apart from referencing the humanity of Christ. Oneness adherents are opposed to the term "God the Son," because it equates the word "Son" with deity alone, for which there is no Biblical support. "Son" alludes to and emphasizes the humanity of Christ, but by no means does "Son" refer only to Christ's human nature. Only the whole person of Christ-both deity and humanity-can rightly be called the Son.2
(although this was written from a believer of Oneness, I felt it gave the most thorough yet simple explanation of the two theologies)
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I felt it gave the most thorough yet simple explanation of the two theologies
I am in no way debating any part of this or getting into a discussion on this subject, however I did read all that was posted because when I was a believer I was taught the Trinity concept. That being said, if you (or anyone) finds this to be a "simple explanation", more power to you. I was so confused by it, even after reading it through 3 times, I obviously have but one working brain cell left. :confused1:
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I felt it gave the most thorough yet simple explanation of the two theologies
I am in no way debating any part of this or getting into a discussion on this subject, however I did read all that was posted because when I was a believer I was taught the Trinity concept. That being said, if you (or anyone) finds this to be a "simple explanation", more power to you. I was so confused by it, even after reading it through 3 times, I obviously have but one working brain cell left. :confused1:
lol sorry jordandog! i think it's just a confusing subject in the first place! :-
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It's easy to see how someone can read the Bible and go off on the wrong path.
interesting you should say that. todays church service was centered around how the devil uses the word of god to keep people from hearing the voice of god. i can't even explain it really here to give it "uumph" my pastor gave the whole sermon but it was really an eye opener to how we let the word of god lead us the wrong way. we can be sincere in our interpretation of God's word but we can be sincerely wrong. "the letter will kill but the spirit sets you free"
i don't know when todays sermon will post online but my church has a website where you can watch past services and even watch live on Sunday mornings if you like.
it's www.newlifesa.net and today's message was titiled "The 1 thing I do"
Look for it this week if you're interested, I think my pastor hit some nails on the head with this one!! :D
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Shernajwine, I go to a oneness church also. The Godhead is not hard to understand, but it is a given revelation.
The word "trinity" isn't even in the Bible. God can manifest himself anyway He likes (burning bush to Moses, Angel to Abraham, pillar of fire and pillar of smoke to the Hebrew children, etc.) If the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, and she conceived, how then can God be Jesus's father? He was, because it was God's Spirit that overshadowed her. Can't separate His Spirit from Himself. No more than you can separate His flesh from Himself.
God made himself a body to dwell with man (flesh-son of man-Jesus). If you study the Name "Jesus" in the Hebrew, it means "Jehovah Savior" or "Jehovah has become our Salvation". We are made in His image.....body, soul, spirit. God is a invisible spirit. The Bible says no man hath seen God at any time, but the son (Jesus) hath declared Him. How? Through the body of Jesus (flesh).
I would not serve a God that sent his own son down to do his dirty work on the cross. He did give his only begotten son (his OWN flesh) to make a way to redeem us back to Him from sin. Remember Mary was flesh. Everybody knows that the blood comes from the father of offspring. He needed a body with "His" own blood to shed. Blood that can atone for everyone! The body had to be the flesh of man that could die. God cannot die. He had to find a way to bring us back to Him. This was His plan.
All the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily (Jesus).....or in His body. Colossians 2: 6-10
I do a teaching on this with dozens of scriptures and it's easy to understand. You can't have 3 distinct persons, only One with different manifestations.
Queenofnines, your post shocked me because I use the description of H20 to explain the different manifestations of God, but still One God. Water can be liquid, steam, or ice, but it's still water....one component.
He is God in Diety, Son in Humanity, and Spirit in Application........but One God.
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thank you Annella that was a much easier explanation than i was able to find online!
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Shernajwine, here is a good scripture that kind of ties it all together. The parenthesis are my input.
And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh (Jesus), justified in the Spirit (Mary conceived by being overshadowed by the Spirit and bore Jesus), seen of Angels (Jesus), preached unto the Gentiles (Jesus), believed on in the world (Jesus), received up into Glory (Jesus).
All of this scripture states that God did all these things, and it's true, because God was Jesus manifested in the flesh in the world. So what is God's name?
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JESUS!!! lol
well once i realized what my pastor and the ministry leaders believed on the subject i became interested. my pastor never preaches on the issue because he isn't one to use the pulpit to preach doctrines. his personal conviction is women don't wear make up or pants or jewelry, men don't have long hair or grow beards or wear jewelry but you will never hear him say anything about it. i wear plenty of make up, i own one dress and i wear lots of jewelry lol. and he exhibits the utmost respect for me and has told me on several occasions that me and my family (my husband has a beard and long hair lol) are extremely important parts of that church body and how much he loves us!
but i digress.....once a church member said something about the trinity not being in the bible, i thought??? isn't that just believing in God Jesus and the Holy Spirit? i didn't understand and so i looked up the belief foundations for Apostolic Pentecostal faith because i knew that was my pastors background. and i found there that they believed in Oneness.
the description of it sounded more like what i believed in and was just calling the trinity because i didn't know any other term or that there was even a contention in using the term trinity!
i asked my pastor about it and he said the specifics are not important, what it's important is that you believe Jesus died for you and spread the message of the cross to hurting people. let the spirit tell you what's true.
but i'm not satisfied with just believing for the sake of believing so i wanted to find out more about the differences and then pray about it.
at this point Oneness makes more sense. i don't think that makes people who believe in the trinity less of a christian or any less in any way though. Jesus loves even the people who deny him, and he loves them just as much as he loves the christians who quibble about scripture interpretation. ;D
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I do not claim "oneness" nor "trinity." I have studied these views on the "Godhead" as well as many other views, such as "Biblical Unitarianism" and "Bitarianism." Since I have formally studied both Hebrew and Greek for many years, I would say that somethings are not as clear as we would like them to be in our English versions. So, with that said... I simply believe what is clearly written without finding the need to explain those things that are unexplainable to justify my position. I simple believe what is ascribed in the apostles creed concerning Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Anything beyond that is speculation:
1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit
Scripture really does not show how they are specifically linked. There are guesses. Even among Oneness, there are many views. So, why try to fill in the gaps. I simply believe what it written!
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I simply believe what it written!
absolutely!
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rwdeese, Scripture DOES link everything together. I guess the scripture I gave above is not correct?
We ALL believe this Oneness Doctrine in my organization. We have no questions about it among us.........never. I don't know how you can say that there are questions and debate even with Oneness people. I've never found any. If we question anything, it's with the trinity doctrine, which we don't believe.
In fact, I would like for shernajwine to print out all my postings, and show them to her Pastor. I guarantee you, even though I've never met him, we will be in perfect agreement. Oneness people ALWAYS are.
I was merely trying to help shernajwine with her question. Her heart is searching out wisdom and Truth. I tried to put it in layman's language so she could understand it a bit better. I've taught this Oneness doctrine all over the world. I certainly do not, nor would I ever, fill in gaps of the Word of God to make a position for personal belief or gain. The Bible is not some "stab in the dark" translated piece of literature. It is the Truth, and pure, anointed, Word of God. Never would I add to it, or take from it.
Another thing: The Apostles Creed is NOT in the Bible. While the writings have Truth in it, this is not all of it, there's more to it. It was drafted by a faith in the belief of trinity. I should know, I was raised in it the first 19 years of my life. We recited it every Sunday morning.
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shernajwine, you are right. Jesus loves us all, no matter if we are saint or sinner. I will not debate the Word of God....only that it's Truth and undeniable. I learned something from you today......thank you.
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shernajwine, you are right. Jesus loves us all, no matter if we are saint or sinner. I will not debate the Word of God....only that it's Truth and undeniable. I learned something from you today......thank you.
we can always learn from each other. i actually have learned more from the atheists on this site than i would have thought possible! and even marieelissa with all her eccentric behavior has made me realize how much more i need to pray to love people who irritate me LOL
god bless you Annella and thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject without judgement.
sheryl~ i wasn't offended :)
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rwdeese, Scripture DOES link everything together. I guess the scripture I gave above is not correct? We ALL believe this Oneness Doctrine in my organization. We have no questions about it among us.........never. I don't know how you can say that there are questions and debate even with Oneness people. I've never found any. If we question anything, it's with the trinity doctrine, which we don't believe.
Everyone within your organization may all believe in the general understanding of Oneness within that organization, but that does not necessarily mean that they all agree on every point. My goodness, just read the articles written by Jason Dulle and compare them with Bernard. There are various flavors of Oneness across the world. Here is another group of Oneness Pentecostals who disagree with Jason and David in many areas: http://ccgathering.com/
I have read hundreds and hundreds of articles from many flavors of Oneness Pentecostals, so I know there are many disagreements on some of the finer points of doctrine. I can list many websites that will not agree with what you teach on Oneness if you wish.
In fact, I would like for shernajwine to print out all my postings, and show them to her Pastor. I guarantee you, even though I've never met him, we will be in perfect agreement. Oneness people ALWAYS are.
What you have written that I have read is some of the basics that many agree with, but the Oneness doctrine has many aspects to it! Moreover, Oneness people disagree with many other aspects of theology among themselves as well.
I was merely trying to help shernajwine with her question. Her heart is searching out wisdom and Truth. I tried to put it in layman's language so she could understand it a bit better. I've taught this Oneness doctrine all over the world. I certainly do not, nor would I ever, fill in gaps of the Word of God to make a position for personal belief or gain. The Bible is not some "stab in the dark" translated piece of literature. It is the Truth, and pure, anointed, Word of God. Never would I add to it, or take from it.
I would never say that you are trying to subvert the word of God, but sometimes we buy into truths so strongly, we think that we have arrived at the totality of that truth, when in fact, we may have just read into a passage what we want it to say because we beleive it is saying what we already believe to be a truth. Take ploygamy for example. Most believers say that it is sin. Yet, there isn't a single bible verse that condemns it, but becdause we in the Western Church have been taught since we were children that it is sin, we have not bothered to search out the Scriptures to see if that is really true!
Another thing: The Apostles Creed is NOT in the Bible. While the writings have Truth in it, this is not all of it, there's more to it. It was drafted by a faith in the belief of trinity. I should know, I was raised in it the first 19 years of my life. We recited it every Sunday morning.
There are Oneness denominations that quote that creed as well. Moreover, if you would like, I will give you a list of phrases that Oneness people use that are not in the Bible as well. Here is a short list: omnipresent; theophany; modes; attributes, functions, etc...
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rwdeese....
I happen to know David Bernard. He's our General Superintendent of our organization. We're both in the ministry. He can preach Oneness like nobody I've ever heard, and all backed up with scripture.
I'm going to quit posting as I don't want shernajwine confused. I broke my own rule by debating with you about this. I don't debate the authenticity of God's word, or the truths in it. I explained it to her in simple terms to help her understand the basics. I feel she gets it.
However, her Pastor is there to teach her, and guide her to Christ. He is someone she sees and talks to, and not just someone on a thread.
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rwdeese....
I happen to know David Bernard. He's our General Superintendent of our organization. We're both in the ministry. He can preach Oneness like nobody I've ever heard, and all backed up with scripture.
I'm going to quit posting as I don't want shernajwine confused. I broke my own rule by debating with you about this. I don't debate the authenticity of God's word, or the truths in it. I explained it to her in simple terms to help her understand the basics. I feel she gets it.
However, her Pastor is there to teach her, and guide her to Christ. He is someone she sees and talks to, and not just someone on a thread.
Actually, I am not debating about it. I am merely pointing out that not every Oneness Pentecostal agrees with each other. Sure, most of the Oneness in the UPC will agree on David's view. It wouldn't be proper to cause division. I think David has a lot of good things to say, but this does not mean he is infallible. I am pretty close to his view on many things concerning God, but I disagree with his view on soteriology more so. Anyway, blessings to you.
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Yes, I'm UPC. you must be on the West Coast like me, or maybe your a night owl....also like me...lol Blessings your way also.
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Yes, I'm UPC. you must be on the West Coast like me, or maybe your a night owl....also like me...lol Blessings your way also.
Actually, I work graveyard. This is my night off, and I dont want to get off schedule.
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I was raised as a JW and they do not believe in the Trinity. I am now attending a different assembly which does not use the word Trinity but uses the term "Godhead". The Godhead (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) isn't equal to each other but work toward the same goal.
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Shernajwine, here is a good scripture that kind of ties it all together. The parenthesis are my input.
And without controversy great is the mystery of Godliness: God was manifest in the flesh (Jesus), justified in the Spirit (Mary conceived by being overshadowed by the Spirit and bore Jesus), seen of Angels (Jesus), preached unto the Gentiles (Jesus), believed on in the world (Jesus), received up into Glory (Jesus).
All of this scripture states that God did all these things, and it's true, because God was Jesus manifested in the flesh in the world. So what is God's name?
Verse 6 shows that faith is the mystery of godliness so in other words "God was manifested in the flesh", Or better yet faith itself came in the flesh. Any other ideas are going beyond the things written.
P.S. If I had to choose between modalism(that's the original name for oneness) and Trinity, i'll choose Modalism.
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Trinity
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Trinity
I feel that the doctrines have some truth but the bulk of it is contradictory to most scripture. However with Modalism(oneness) at least I know there's one person who's almighty instead of a group of people who make up one almighty which is in saying THREE GOD's make ONE ALMIGHTY or ONE ALMIGHTY makes THREE GOD's.
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Don't forget everyone, the Trinity is perhaps more than anything a mystery. Actually, it is THE Mystery. Really, we can only know to the point, thanks to His great mercy, that God chooses to reveal Himself too us. There are a few things we can say about the Trinity, quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):
253: The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity." The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entie: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature on God."
254: The divine person are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." "Father," Son," "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct form one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." Thay are distinct form one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." The divine Unity is Triune.
255: The divine persons are related to one another. Because it does not divide the divein unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their rlations, we believe in one nature or substance." Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship: "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.:
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They apparently aren't getting their information from the proper source ~ The Holy Bible. God is three persons in one - God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit.
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They apparently aren't getting their information from the proper source ~ The Holy Bible. God is three persons in one - God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit.
The bible doesn't say they are three persons in one. The bible doesn't use the world Trinity. In fact it says God is one, Jesus said if you have seen him you have seen the father and God is holy and he is spirit. Before you blow off someone elses belief as BS you should study more to see how they justify that belief instead of posting an ignorant flippant comment such as that.
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Don't forget everyone, the Trinity is perhaps more than anything a mystery. Actually, it is THE Mystery. Really, we can only know to the point, thanks to His great mercy, that God chooses to reveal Himself too us. There are a few things we can say about the Trinity, quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):
253: The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity." The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entie: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature on God."
254: The divine person are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary." "Father," Son," "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct form one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son." Thay are distinct form one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds." The divine Unity is Triune.
255: The divine persons are related to one another. Because it does not divide the divein unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their rlations, we believe in one nature or substance." Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship: "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.:
I'll respond to your comments in the order you said them as I join Shernajwine Modalist's party for this one thread even through i'm not a modalist :P
1. Your source says the Trinity is one(I know you copied and pasted it), yet you use the phrase EACH, every language known to man uses the word each to represent MORE THEN ONE. Moreover the third sentence contradicts itself because it uses each again and that means more then one again so there's no divinity but DIVINITIES. Here's how the argument errs, sherna, teflonfanatic and manicamarketing are EACH fully human but they don't share humanity??!!! ???
2. Your source uses the words THEY and ONE ANOTHER that's more then one.
3. Your sources third paragraph ADMITS TO HAVING MORE THEN ONE GOD in the first sentence and says that the only difference is the relationship titles. They can all be Almighty God according to the trinity but that still makes three Gods equal to each other.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I mean this with all sincerity and seriousness and I know I have to get better with the English language but the trinity tries hard to twist the meaning of words that mean more then one and try to make then mean one thing. It's more then one no matter how it's twisted.