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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: Peds on August 13, 2010, 12:33:59 pm
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I have a question and I was wondering if someone who knows the Bible inside and out could answer it for me:
Why are there religious groups that say "God hates fags"? If God created humans and didn't want any of them to be gay why did he make some of them gay? And if you believe that homosexuality is a choice why did he give humans the ability to choose to be gay?
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I'm interested in this as well. I have found on other forums and talking to some Christian friends that it is considered sin because it's an abomination. Because men with men isn't how God intended us to be. He intended man with woman.
As far as theories why... Population cannot grow. Your butt can't get pregnant.
Waaaayyyyy back in the day, Catholics needed their numbers to grow. Therefore they came up with the idea that birth control was evil. Same concept with homosexuality. If you can't breed, population can't grow. if population doesn't grow tithes stop coming in.
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God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans !
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Why are there religious groups that say "God hates fags"?
Because there are many, many verses in the Bible that disapprove of it:
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. -- Leviticus 18:22
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a *bleep*, or the price of a dog [homosexual], into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God. -- Deuteronomy 23:18
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. -- Jude 7
Nevermind the fact that the Average Christian ignores HUNDREDS of other commandments from the Bible. They just want an excuse to be prejudiced, and that's why they emphasize Scriptures like these. In 10 years when same-sex marriage is legalized in all states, religious people will be FORCED to *change their doctrine* like they had to for black people a few decades back.
If God created humans and didn't want any of them to be gay why did he make some of them gay?
The Christian god doesn't exist because something that is perfect (god) cannot create something that is imperfect or has the ability to become imperfect (humans). It is a logical fallacy. Homosexuality is just an aspect of nature.
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First off, God love all but being the creator of life or the maker he require certain things. The questions do we respect his authority or rebel like satan
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Something that is perfect can create something that is imperfect...
Uh, do you not know what the definition of "perfect" is?
[insert Christian excuse of how god's version of "perfect" is not man's]
...this type of response is making broad assertions and assumptions without a shred of evidence.
Perfect = incapable of creating something that's imperfect, CASE CLOSED. Therefore, the Christian god (or any other god that's supposed to be perfect) doesn't exist.
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God created men with free will. He did not create evil, but man has a choice to engage in evil or engage in good. Homosexuality is a choice just like any other behavior. However, God does not hate homosexuals, nor does he hate any person period. He loves people, he hates sin.
CASE CLOSED
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Some of the longer term members have seen this before but for the benefit of the newbies......
In my culture(Tsalagi) homosexuals or as we say, two spirits are very respected and are thought to have a deeper spiritual connection. We know that just as one doesn't one day decide they will be a medicine person neither does one choose to be two spirited. Not everyone is gifted in these ways.
I just cant wrap my mind around the intolerance....if they aren't grabbing your *bleep* or victimizing your relations, why do you care so much?
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I guess when we pass on we shall see where we go. :angel12:
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So queenofnines...what is perfect? Nothing, perfect doesn't exist!...God therefore fits the bill of perfection!
Haha, you said it - not me! :D
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It is not hard to see that all of you atheists have so much pain and grief and comes through so eloquently in your writing.
Yes, keep telling yourself that to cover for your own insecurity of there not being a god. "If I can keep rambling off a claim with unrelenting persistence, that MUST mean it's true!" There is a god there is a god there is a god *rocks self in the corner* there is a god...
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God created men with free will. He did not create evil, but man has a choice to engage in evil or engage in good.
You say god did not create evil, eh? So evil came from *gulp* nothing?! Haha, just had to throw that joke in there.
But seriously, how can you say god is the creator of all things, EXCEPT evil? Did he not create Lucifer? Yes, yes he did. In any case, god allows evil - a great deal of it - as part of his f-ed up "plan" or test for the world. If god was truly omnipotent, he would have surely come up with a better plan than this. If god was truly omnibenevolent, he would not be able to stand for evil at all (even temporary evil, as you Christians claim).
All I'm doing by saying stuff like "case closed" is pointing out that y'all can't change the definitions of words to suit your own purposes. If a god exists, he is certainly NOT perfect, because perfect cannot encompass any flaws, and life as we know it can be very flawed indeed. If a god exists, he is also none of the omnis I described above.
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If, If, If....that's all I hear...If God was this, If God was that, If God knew, then why, If God can, then why....all I know is all these answers have to be answered by God himself....I can't speak for God, I can't act like I know his reasons, it is beyond our understanding.
Classic cop-out. I'm really tired of hearing this one. When logic eats your god alive, just justify the whole thing by asserting that god is mysterious or beyond our comprehension!
You don't have to make excuses for imaginary beings, you know.
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I can't speak for God, I can't act like I know his reasons
Then stop doing it because evidence of your saying what he will do to atheists and others and why he will do it is all over these forums!
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I can't speak for God, I can't act like I know his reasons
Then stop doing it because evidence of your saying what he will do to atheists and others and why he will do it is all over these forums!
It is in the bible...there is a difference.
No, there isn't 'a difference' when you use your interpretation of the bible.
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I still wonder why Christians in particular hone in on homosexuality like it's the worst sin ever. Go pick on murderers or child molesters.
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I still wonder why Christians in particular hone in on homosexuality like it's the worst sin ever. Go pick on murderers or child molesters.
I've heard many of them say that all sins are equal in the eyes of god! :o
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I still wonder why Christians in particular hone in on homosexuality like it's the worst sin ever. Go pick on murderers or child molesters.
I've heard many of them say that all sins are equal in the eyes of god! :o
Yet they treat homosexuals with the most disdain.
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God created men with free will. He did not create evil, but man has a choice to engage in evil or engage in good.
You say god did not create evil, eh? So evil came from *gulp* nothing?! Haha, just had to throw that joke in there.
But seriously, how can you say god is the creator of all things, EXCEPT evil? Did he not create Lucifer? Yes, yes he did. In any case, god allows evil - a great deal of it - as part of his f-ed up "plan" or test for the world. If god was truly omnipotent, he would have surely come up with a better plan than this. If god was truly omnibenevolent, he would not be able to stand for evil at all (even temporary evil, as you Christians claim).
All I'm doing by saying stuff like "case closed" is pointing out that y'all can't change the definitions of words to suit your own purposes. If a god exists, he is certainly NOT perfect, because perfect cannot encompass any flaws, and life as we know it can be very flawed indeed. If a god exists, he is also none of the omnis I described above.
I discussed this topic here http://www.fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=17497.0
Evil is not really a created thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like to claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to "prove" their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html
Nowhere in the definition of perfect will you find that it says perfect is incapable of creating imperfection. God created man and angels with free will. Lucifer was an angel who used his free will to choose evil. Men make choices, and the evidence of evil in their lives is evidence to the absence of good. I have made and still make evil choices, when I choose evil I am rejecting God...evil is the absence of God because God is good. You're right that perfect cannot encompass any flaws, God himself is not flawed and He most certainly is all the omni's you listed.
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Evil is not really a created thing. You can't see, touch, feel, smell or hear evil. It is not one of the fundamental forces of physics, nor does it consist of matter, energy, or the spatial dimensions of the universe. Still, skeptics like to claim that God created evil and cite the Bible to "prove" their point. The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.
I agree that evil is not a created thing; it's a concept or label. Evil does not actually exist in and of itself; however, as members of a social society, we can label certain behaviors as more desirable for survival than others. It is wrong to claim that one can't see, touch, feel, smell, or hear one's opinion of what "evil' is...we certainly can and do every day! Also, evil IS a by-product of physical processes because the entire universe is physical!!
It's playing word games to say that god (if he exists) did not create evil -- he created the CAPACITY for evil. There's no getting around that logical fact. An all-good and all-powerful god would never have allowed the world to be so full of what we call evil in the first place...because once again, such a god would be violating the definitions of the words perfect, omnipotent, etc. to have the world be in its current state ("temporary" evil still violates omnibenevolence).
I seriously cannot understand how believers look at the astounding amounts of atrocities in the world and reasonably think an all-good intelligence has anything to do with it. Asking myself, "Is this the best god can do?" is one of the key doubts that got me out of Christianity. The Christian god would have to be such a small god and completely incompetent to have a chance of actually existing in this universe. The world looks and acts exactly like it should if there IS NO GOD.
I feel really sad for people who think their only life is some wackjob's test and despite natural disasters, abuse, disease, torture, birth defects, hardships, murder, stress, etc. etc. think there is still a magical sky daddy who's "in control".
Nowhere in the definition of perfect will you find that it says perfect is incapable of creating imperfection...You're right that perfect cannot encompass any flaws
You're not thinking about this long and hard enough. Perfection CANNOT beget imperfection...it is logically impossible (please, really take a minute to focus on this statement). It's all too easy to jump on the no-think train and say, "Hey, god is perfect - so were Adam and Eve - but they CHOSE evil!"...completely forgetting that this is **logically impossible** when dealing with a "perfect" god and his "perfect" creation!!
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You're not thinking about this long and hard enough. Perfection CANNOT beget imperfection...it is logically impossible (please, really take a minute to focus on this statement). It's all too easy to jump on the no-think train and say, "Hey, god is perfect - so were Adam and Eve - but they CHOSE evil!"...completely forgetting that this is **logically impossible** when dealing with a "perfect" god and his "perfect" creation!!
That is...it depends on your interpretation of the Adam and Eve story. Did they choose evil, or did they sacrifice immortality for knowledge? By eating from the tree of knowledge, did Eve make the decision that she would rather face death than live a life of ignorance...and who informed her of this choice? Was g-d's number one angel being so deviant (makes me think of the short lived TV show God, the Devil, and Bob)? So by looking at the story of Eve eating the apple...a conclusion could possibly be drawn that those who choose knowledge are evil and those who choose blind belief and ignorance, for lack of better words, not evil. Another discussion I've had with my Rabbi on several occasions.
I find the interpretation of Eve eating the apple as an evil act to be offensive toward women and thinking people (I am not saying I think you have offended me, queenofnines, since I would tend to think you would find the story itself and most likely the "evil" interpretation to be offensive as well. I don't believe the story is an accurate account of actual events...I doubt the event actually occurred. I think the bible should be a book of moral teachings that are open to interpretation and not a historical account. :thumbsup:).
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I think the bible should be a book of moral teachings that are open to interpretation and not a historical account.
I agree with that completely. Nor should it be used as a weapon held over the heads of the masses as a means of control. I have NO problem with many of the parables and teachings within it when they are taken as a 'code of ethics' to live by.
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The Christian god would have to be such a small god and completely incompetent to have a chance of actually existing in this universe
It takes a small minded person to believe that they can fit God into their mental finite box, you can't try to define God by the natural world. There is logical evidence in this world that points to a creator but God himself is not logical and when you try to define Him by the natural world you will fall very short of who and what God is and what He is capable of doing.
Nowhere does the Bible state that the universe was created to be perfect. God Himself called it "good"6 and "very good,"7 but never "perfect." In fact, God Himself stated that part of the original creation was "not good."8 The Bible states that the current universe is not perfect,9 but was designed to be temporary10 and will be replaced with a perfect universe11 that will be permanent.12 Science also tells us that the universe was designed to be temporary.13
Why would God create an imperfect, temporary universe only to replace it later with a perfect one? Why wouldn't God have created a perfect universe in the first place? This is a good question, but shows a lack of understanding of the biblical reason of why God created the universe.
God's purposes in creating the universe go beyond merely creating free will beings that love Him in this temporary universe. Jesus explained the ultimate goal of God in the parable of the banquet:
Jesus replied: "A certain man [representing God] was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready.' But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, 'I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' Another said, 'I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I'm on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.' Still another said, 'I just got married, so I can't come.' The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, 'Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.' 'Sir,' the servant said, 'what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.' Then the master told his servant, 'Go out to the roads and country lanes and make them come in, so that my house will be full. (Luke 14:16-23)
This parable tells that God wants not only a relationship with humans in this universe, but a relationship with billions15 of these creatures in His future, perfect creation. If God's purpose is to have relationships with free will beings in a future creation, then there must be a means by which these beings can make a choice to enter or not enter into this relationship. The means by which we make this choice is exactly the message of the Bible.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evilandsuffering.html
So by looking at the story of Eve eating the apple...a conclusion could possibly be drawn that those who choose knowledge are evil and those who choose blind belief and ignorance, for lack of better words, not evil
Eve was not denied knowledge by being told not to eat from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil". The devil persuaded her that she would be like God if she ate from this tree, (trying to be God is exactly what got satan cast out of heaven in the first place) and after she ate and adam ate from the tree they now had the ability to feel shame. A tool the devil uses to bind people up inside, feeling full of guilt and condemnation which keeps them from having a relationship with God because of feeling unworthy. Knowledge is not evil, God does not consider knowledge evil...
Proverbs 24:5
A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength
Ecclesiastes 2:26
For God giveth to a man that is good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy:
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
2 Corinthians 8:7
Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
This list could keep going!!
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So by looking at the story of Eve eating the apple...a conclusion could possibly be drawn that those who choose knowledge are evil and those who choose blind belief and ignorance, for lack of better words, not evil
Eve was not denied knowledge by being told not to eat from the tree of "knowledge of good and evil". The devil persuaded her that she would be like God if she ate from this tree, (trying to be God is exactly what got satan cast out of heaven in the first place) and after she ate and adam ate from the tree they now had the ability to feel shame. A tool the devil uses to bind people up inside, feeling full of guilt and condemnation which keeps them from having a relationship with God because of feeling unworthy. Knowledge is not evil, God does not consider knowledge evil...
One cannot seek the knowledge g-d has and live forever. You have a different interpretation than I do. I see nothing wrong with that...
And I do not claim that g-d considers knowledge evil. I was stating that relying on the interpretations others have can confuse, and that idea that the quest for knowledge is evil is one possible conclusion, not that I felt that way or that I think g-d would.
By your interpretation, though, if g-d told Eve not to eat from the knowledge of good and evil, how else could one interpret g-d's request? Eve made a choice to sacrifice immortality for knowledge, and the devil is to blame? Or is Eve to blame when she wasn't fully aware of the consequences of her actions? How could she be aware of them? She had yet to eat from the tree.
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Eve made a choice to sacrifice immortality for knowledge, and the devil is to blame? Or is Eve to blame when she wasn't fully aware of the consequences of her actions? How could she be aware of them? She had yet to eat from the tree.
Eve made a choice.....that is a key phrase. Eve had the ability to make a choice. She was well aware of the act of disobedience and well aware that to eat from the tree would mean death. She knew what God said not to do and she was persuaded with the idea that should could be like God and have the wisdom of God...she made a choice. Adam and Eve were given free will.
God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that eating the fruit truly gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil.
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God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey Him or disobey Him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that eating the fruit truly gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil.
Do as I say, because I say so. Wouldn't the more reasonable expectation be to explain the consequences...why g-d didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree, instead of saying "See this tree? Don't eat the fruit. Because I said so. Or else you'll die." Where is death explained to Eve prior to this? Does a child understand that eating that spider will hurt them before it is explained to them by their parents? Everyone must learn through instruction and experience, and someone saying "No, no, because I say so" doesn't cut it. Like I said, my interpretation is different than yours. The lesson I garner from the Eve/apple story is to seek knowledge, not that it was Eve's fault that I have the capacity to sin.
Besides that...if it was really such a big no-no to eat of the tree...why was it even placed in the garden in the first place? G-d wanted to test Adam and Eve?
The fruit is symbolic of the knowledge. It wasn't some grand epiphany of knowledge that came to Eve magically once her teeth pierced the skin of the apple.
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So by looking at the story of Eve eating the apple...a conclusion could possibly be drawn that those who choose knowledge are evil and those who choose blind belief and ignorance, for lack of better words, not evil.
Exactly. Good video on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAMSMiArq4E&playnext=1&videos=sIMulSWANwM
Another logical point to bring up is to consume fruit is to bring death to the living cells of those items. Adam and Eve were allowed to (and most likely did) consume other fruits before they consumed the tainted one. But death didn't exist before the fall. Do you see the logical inconsistency? Either the couple starved, or the Bible is wrong. ;)
Eve being written as the first to eat the fruit has DEFINITELY had negative consequences for women (among many other verses). This is disturbing because it's obvious that a story containing a dirt man, rib woman, talking snake, cursed fruit, etc. is a primitive creation myth.
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Besides that...if it was really such a big no-no to eat of the tree...why was it even placed in the garden in the first place? G-d wanted to test Adam and Eve?
I like you, Amy. You have your head on straight! :thumbsup:
What is the purpose of "testing" his creation when he already knew the outcome (being all-knowing and all)? God set the dominoes in place for it to happen.
It wasn't some grand epiphany of knowledge that came to Eve magically once her teeth pierced the skin of the apple.
Right. My husband always likes to ask, "So Christians are saying that a piece of fruit has the ability to magically rearrange the neurons in the brain upon consumption??"
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I like you, Amy. You have your head on straight! :thumbsup:
Thanks. :-[
I believe that it is possible to reconcile faith and logic. I am a religious person, and I love g-d. But I also adore my parents, and over the years, I have questioned them more than once. ;) I tend to think it would be worse not to use our capacity for knowledge than for us to reject religion. I believe in the "golden rule" and feel that good works are more important than faith alone. I am not alone in believing this, either. It is a recurring theme in Judaism (still, promising not to try to convert, just explaining. It is common for Rabbis to turn potential converts away ten times before they can complete the conversion).
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Fruit can't make you intelligent, but meat can, in fact the consumption of meat is what made us intelligent...hence to know good and evil.
I'm a vegetarian. Are you saying that makes me un-intelligent?
Eve is the mother of all living (human) beings....in fact Eve is the link for which scientists have concluded is evolution....you know she is our grandmother to which chimps branched off!
Ok so Eve is this link....does it say anywhere in the bible that Eve wasn't an Ape? Or the grandmother that is the common ancestor with an Ape?
I think you are referring to Mitochondrial Eve here...this is not the biblical Eve. You can go here to learn more: http://biology.suite101.com/article.cfm/who_is_mitochondrial_eve
I am still reading the bible (so this is all I got, right now) and decided not to skip through it and read it from start to finish.
I applaud you for taking the initiative to try to read the material on your own rather than allow someone else to tell you what it says. :thumbsup:
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I believe I stated in my post that the fruit did not give them knowledge of evil, it was the act of disobedience. How were Adam and Eve going to make a choice to choose God if they had nothing to choose from?? God wants his creation to CHOOSE him. Did he know that they would "fail the test?" Yes, because God certainly is omniscient So why create them at all? Why even create the angel Lucifer whom God knew would fall? Well, those are valid questions and are a little difficult to understand.
The only conclusion we can come to in view of scriptural understanding is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.
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I believe I stated in my post that the fruit did not give them knowledge of evil, it was the act of disobedience. How were Adam and Eve going to make a choice to choose God if they had nothing to choose from?? God wants his creation to CHOOSE him. Did he know that they would "fail the test?" Yes, because God certainly is omniscient So why create them at all? Why even create the angel Lucifer whom God knew would fall? Well, those are valid questions and are a little difficult to understand.
The only conclusion we can come to in view of scriptural understanding is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.
So...you're saying g-d created the world in order for us to worship g-d? Sounds kinda shallow to me. I don't feel that way about g-d, and I can't see g-d creating us for any reason other than to love us and watch us grow, as any parent would. Still a bit of a selfish motive...but I feel that g-d's love is for us and not for "I am."
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Meat Made Us Smarter
...and learning how to cook it made us human
Sorry, vegetarians: Humans have meat to thank for the evolutionary changes that made us the large-brained tool-users we are today. Some 2.3 million years ago, our ancestors made the jump from gnawing all day on leaves and nuts to scavenging carcasses. This, anthropologists say, was the magic moment when our brains got enough energy to start growing to their current size—largely because we no longer had to maintain a giant gut capable of processing all those raw leaves.
From there came the invention of tools—"external teeth" that meant we didn't need big sharp teeth like other predators—and fire for cooking, which made meat easier to digest and squeeze nutrition from, meaning we no longer had to spend hours a day chewing like chimps do. Cooking also taught us to share labor and brought people together for conversation in the evening, making us even more human
http://current.com/news/92584625_meat-made-us-smarter.htm
OK...you got me. :) Good job.
I like the evolution theme behind your response.
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So...you're saying g-d created the world in order for us to worship g-d? Sounds kinda shallow to me. I don't feel that way about g-d, and I can't see g-d creating us for any reason other than to love us and watch us grow, as any parent would. Still a bit of a selfish motive...but I feel that g-d's love is for us and not for "I am."
I'm saying God created us to make a choice to love Him. He created us with a free will, and therefore knew that men would fail because we were made with the ability to choose.....everyone is not going to choose God. But there is a bigger plan that God had in creating us. But the love is mutual and there is nothing shallow about it, not in the least. God's love for us goes far and above what we can even comprehend....and yes God desires worship and quite deservedly I might add.
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Meat Made Us Smarter
...and learning how to cook it made us human
Sorry, vegetarians: Humans have meat to thank for the evolutionary changes that made us the large-brained tool-users we are today. Some 2.3 million years ago, our ancestors made the jump from gnawing all day on leaves and nuts to scavenging carcasses. This, anthropologists say, was the magic moment when our brains got enough energy to start growing to their current size—largely because we no longer had to maintain a giant gut capable of processing all those raw leaves.
From there came the invention of tools—"external teeth" that meant we didn't need big sharp teeth like other predators—and fire for cooking, which made meat easier to digest and squeeze nutrition from, meaning we no longer had to spend hours a day chewing like chimps do. Cooking also taught us to share labor and brought people together for conversation in the evening, making us even more human
http://current.com/news/92584625_meat-made-us-smarter.htm
OK...you got me. :) Good job.
I like the evolution theme behind your response.
yes the second evolutionary type of response i have seen tonight! i think marie converted!
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So...you're saying g-d created the world in order for us to worship g-d? Sounds kinda shallow to me. I don't feel that way about g-d, and I can't see g-d creating us for any reason other than to love us and watch us grow, as any parent would. Still a bit of a selfish motive...but I feel that g-d's love is for us and not for "I am."
What is wrong with you people? Are you that unhappy that you were given life? I thank God everyday for giving me life and creating our planet and the universe....I am so happy he gave me a chance to experience: Love, friendship and Pizza ;D
Far from unhappy with it...I am grateful. But I also believe it is important to question and learn. Call it playing the devil's advocate, or call it a discussion and exchange of ideas. Correct me if I am wrong, shernajwine, but I think we've had an interesting, and (while it may have been a bit heated) civil exchange of ideas that made us look at our own beliefs and dig a little deeper into what we believe and why. Shernajwine gave an excellent response to my statement above. She has been studying and researching her faith well. :thumbsup:
And I hope that when you say "you people" that you cannot be referencing the Jews (since I am Jewish, and one of g-d's chosen people).
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Correct me if I am wrong, shernajwine, but I think we've had an interesting, and (while it may have been a bit heated) civil exchange of ideas that made us look at our own beliefs and dig a little deeper into what we believe and why
Absolutely! There is nothing wrong and absolutely everything right with searching for Truth :)
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And I hope that when you say "you people" that you cannot be referencing the Jews (since I am Jewish, and one of g-d's chosen people).
Man...no, people that say all this bad stuff about what God has done as if they are unhappy to be living.
I think we're all just searching for answers to things we do not understand. A rebellious teen may say negative things about their parents, but that doesn't mean they don't love them or that they are unhappy to be living.
I apologize if it seems that I am being harsh on you. I just feel that when posting in a forum, where tone and intention can be misconstrued, that it is important to be careful with what you type.
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the Jews (since I am Jewish, and one of g-d's chosen people).
Chosen for what? What does I am Jewish and one of God's chosen people mean? That everyone else goes to hell?
I would think, a black person born in Africa could be Jewish if he chooses that as a religion. As well as a chinese person born in America.
Have you read any of my other posts? Do you know the term "G-d's chosen people"? It is in the Bible...you will come across it soon.
No...I don't believe in hell. The Jews have been persecuted, and therefore tend to not proselytize the way other religions do. Jesus was Jewish. I suggest you learn a little about the faith.
And you don't make a simple "choice" to be Jewish. It is a long process, and is a struggle. At the forefront of that struggle is the quest for knowledge. Try going back over the discussion Annella and I had over in "Favorite Bible Quotes."
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Do you know the term "G-d's chosen people"?
Yes I know the term...in fact my step-dad, who is atheist had once told me he doesn't know why anyone other than Jews believe in God because only they are chosen and go to heaven or something like that...
If that is the case, that's all it takes me to dismiss God of the bible and all because that is some :bs:
Then can you understand how some who have heard that the only pre-requisite for heaven is to believe in Jesus can be frustrated and want to dismiss religion as :bs:? Being Jewish is not a ticket into heaven; and it is not the only path to heaven, should heaven exist. Being chosen is a great responsibility, and not one to take lightly, as we have centuries of oppression on our backs, and we still deal with it today. We also have the smaller offenses ("Yeah, I went to that yard sale and I Jewed him down from five to three...") to contend with.
The biggie, though, I would think for you as a Christian would be the fact that Jesus was Jewish. He lived and died as Jewish. It was a major part of who he was. I may reject the theorem that Jesus was the Messiah; however, you believing he was the Messiah should make you want to learn more about the religion.
And your step-dad doesn't know what he's talking about. Somewhere along the lines he got his info mixed up. :wave:
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:angel11: It is written in the Bible that gays are against God's wishes . God is perfect - he created all things but he did not make peple gay -read your Bible
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It takes a small minded person to believe that they can fit God into their mental finite box, you can't try to define God by the natural world.
Oh yes we can! As I've mentioned before, this type of statement of "we can't understand!" is an excuse. It's useless (and even harmful) to believe in things that have no good evidence (like personal gods). Not interacting with the natural world is the same as not existing, for all intensive purposes!
As Sam Harris says, science would be a completely ridiculous pursuit if the supernatural co-existed with the natural. This is because the universe is governed by STRICT physical laws; if these laws were to be interrupted or interfered with by something "spiritual" (non-physical), we could no longer trust that the atoms in ANYTHING would remain stable...we could no longer predict anything, test anything, NONE OF OUR TECHNOLOGY WOULD WORK. But y'all don't think about these things, do you?
There is logical evidence in this world that points to a creator but God himself is not logical and when you try to define Him by the natural world you will fall very short of who and what God is and what He is capable of doing.
Where is this logical evidence? It sure is convenient to pull an invisible dragon a la Carl Sagan for your god. http://thinkingasaprofession.blogspot.com/2009/01/dragon-in-my-garage-by-carl-sagan.html
Science also tells us that the universe was designed to be temporary.
So Jesus isn't coming for many billions of years? ;)
If God's purpose is to have relationships with free will beings in a future creation, then there must be a means by which these beings can make a choice to enter or not enter into this relationship. The means by which we make this choice is exactly the message of the Bible.
It isn't a "choice", though, it's freaking BLACKMAIL. Worship me or burn Sorry, Xtians, you messed that one up in terms of getting me to actually take you seriously. This scare tactic may have worked on primitive peoples thousands of years ago, but we wear our big girl panties now in the 21st century.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0wSjJAsrAk&playnext=1&videos=0T8CSbAtFGo
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The only conclusion we can come to in view of scriptural understanding is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does.
He's doing a pretty poor job of that for claiming omnipotence and all.
The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.
Are there any groups that you personally consider a cult?
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Meat Made Us Smarter
...and learning how to cook it made us human
Sorry, vegetarians: Humans have meat to thank for the evolutionary changes that made us the large-brained tool-users we are today. Some 2.3 million years ago, our ancestors made the jump from gnawing all day on leaves and nuts to scavenging carcasses. This, anthropologists say, was the magic moment when our brains got enough energy to start growing to their current size—largely because we no longer had to maintain a giant gut capable of processing all those raw leaves.
From there came the invention of tools—"external teeth" that meant we didn't need big sharp teeth like other predators—and fire for cooking, which made meat easier to digest and squeeze nutrition from, meaning we no longer had to spend hours a day chewing like chimps do. Cooking also taught us to share labor and brought people together for conversation in the evening, making us even more human
http://current.com/news/92584625_meat-made-us-smarter.htm
OK...you got me. :) Good job.
I like the evolution theme behind your response.
No, she did not get you, amyrouse. That is a basically a one-sided bunch of BS - with meat processors/purveyors backing it. Science knows and has proven meat DID NOT increase our brain sizes.
Dr. T. Colin Campbell, professor emeritus at Cornell University and author of The China Study, explains that in fact, we only recently (historically speaking) began eating meat, and that the inclusion of meat in our diet came well after we became who we are today. He explains that "the birth of agriculture only started about 10,000 years ago at a time when it became considerably more convenient to herd animals. This is not nearly as long as the time [that] fashioned our basic biochemical functionality (at least tens of millions of years) and which functionality depends on the nutrient composition of plant-based foods."
I could give 100 more citings by 100 other respected scientists and anthropologists that would dispute what she posted. Again, pull something off the internet without doing any research to back it up.
'If it's on TV, well then it must be true....'
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Where is this logical evidence?
You know what, this is pointless. There is a whole thread dedicated to logical evidence (a thread which you have posted on Case for a Creator). I have linked to several websites and one in particular that gives plenty of good evidence. It is your choice to read it, it is your choice to accept it. But obviously you have not chosen to read it. You claimed that you went through godisimaginary, methodically reading through all 50 proofs. Yet, when it comes to godandscience...I'm not seeing any evidence that you have read through it as methodically.
You are not interested in knowing for sure the truth about God or being given any explanations. You do not WANT to believe in God and therefore any evidence or explanation is dismissed. I'm not going back and forth with you anymore, you don't listen. I keep repeating myself and you keep asking questions I have already answered. I took the time to read through everything you presented and you can't do the same for me. This isn't a mutual search for truth, it is you trying to convince me I'm wrong.
Excerpt from http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html
David F. Coppedge at http://creationsafaris.com/wgcs.htm points out that:
* Many of the greatest scientists in history were Christians or had Biblical presuppositions. (See Appendix 1 below.)
* For most of these, their faith was the driving force behind their discoveries.
* True self-sustaining modern science (not just engineering, logic or mathematics) was born within a Christian society.
This collection presents over 1600 mini-biographies of scientists of the Christian faith-including scholars, mathematicians, and theologians who advanced the cause of science. These Christians pioneered disciplines ranging from oceanography to astronomy, geology to biology, rocket science to genetics. The mini-biographies are presented in alphabetical order. Beginning March 2007 for ease of reference we are dividing each letter of the alphabet into its own separate page. Links to online websites are provided for those wishing to research a particular scientist. Researchers are invited to order the biographies by clicking on the hypertext, as well as check out the biographies published by Gale.
And this only talks about Christian scientists, the list would be even greater for scientists with a deistic POV.
Educated, highly intelligent, scientific men believe in God....not just any God but the God of the bible. They are Christians and their faith drove their discoveries. They believed that the supernatural not only COULD exist but that it DOES. Go and argue with them.
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yes the second evolutionary type of response i have seen tonight! i think marie converted!
No, just showing how the bible can still stand even with scientific findings.
marie the bible does not support evolution. you either are going to believe the bible or you're going to believe evolution.
The Bible says those who reject the truth, “worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator (Romans 1)”. Worshipping creation is the natural result of evolution. Carl Sagan said that evolution’s natural conclusion is atheism, but in his book ‘Cosmos’, Sagan stated:
“Our ancestors worshiped the Sun, and they were far from foolish. And yet the Sun is an ordinary, even a mediocre star. If we must worship a power greater than ourselves, does it not make sense to revere the Sun and stars? “
God said that men would worship what is created instead of giving glory to the Creator; Sagan said that it is not foolish to worship the sun and stars, and yet the church wants to bring this pagan religion into its doctrine. Colossians 2 clearly warns us against allowing this kind of world philosophy into the church:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Instead of fearing God, many people are more intimidated by critics, more afraid of being called a fool, or afraid of being rejected by the world. Even in Jesus’ day, many who believed in Him were afraid of public ridicule. The turned their back on true faith because “they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God”.
There is a reason why proclaimers of Theistic Evolution are praised by anti-Christian groups, their message is of the world and therefore is loved by the world. As Christians, we should not allow intimidation to drive us into silence or into altering our beliefs. Many Christians take the ‘evidence’ for evolution at face value. They feel like they are stupid for taking the Bible literally, so they struggle to believe. Faith is not forcing ourselves to believing what our minds reject, but instead, faith is trusting in God. That trust is founded upon evidence. There is nothing wrong with proving what is true; in fact, we are commanded to do so. We are told to test all things and hold to truth and keep ourselves from every form of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:21-24).
It is a sin to deny the word of God and then try to be ‘enlightened’ by incorporating the words of men (i.e. Darwin and evolutionary prophets) into Christianity. The prophet Elijah confronted the people of his day. They were trying to keep enough of the scriptures to feel justified but then following the pagan god, Baal. Elijah said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people answered him not a word (1 Kings 18:21)
We stand in the same place. How long will we stand between two opinions? The Bible says it is impossible to serve two masters. If evolution is god, follow evolution, but if God is the Lord, follow Him. You can’t mix the two. Once you mix truth with error, it all becomes error. Jesus said that to worship God we must come to Him in spirit and truth. We try to marry falsehood and spirit not understanding that God will not accept false worship. To choose evolution is a rejection of God whether we want to admit it or not. The god of Theistic Evolution is just as much a pagan god as Baal. Each of us must choose who we are to serve.
http://www.exchangedlife.com/Creation/think/psych.shtml
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It isn't a "choice", though, it's freaking BLACKMAIL. Worship me or burn Sorry, Xtians, you messed that one up in terms of getting me to actually take you seriously. This scare tactic may have worked on primitive peoples thousands of years ago, but we wear our big girl panties now in the 21st century.
Yeah I always had a problem with this as well...I think it is harmful to have created a Devil and Demons and Hell and then run around preaching it as truth!
You are contradicting yourself all over these forums, what's going on?! Now you support evolution and the Bible being on the same plane. You said you have NO problem with abortions in one topic, then post how against abortions you are and more pics of babies. Now you talk about how wrong devil, demons, and hell are AFTER lengthy posts screaming at many of us as devil worshippers who are bound for hell. Make up your mind! You have NO credibility because you are constantly and consistently all over the place with everything you say. Why is that everyone else will stick by what they stand for/believe in and you cannot?" Don't give me the BS about "you're learning, you're not perfect". No one is perfect and (hopefully) everyone continues to learn. How and why would you possibly expect anyone to bother listening to you when even you don't know what the h*ll you're saying? I still feel you ought to just sit back and 'listen' and 'learn' and stop with the incoherent ramblings.
I had to catch up on a ton of posts today and not one of your's came across as sincere or credible.
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marieelissa:
"Why are you yelling at me? I don't know what I believe but I am learning about things and getting input from other people.
Find me one place in that entire post where I am 'yelling at you'. Nothing is bolded, capitalized, or font size increased, and I am not swearing at you - that is yelling and you of all people should know that.
You just reinforced my point ie "I still feel you ought to just sit back and 'listen' and 'learn' and stop with the incoherent ramblings." You just said, "I don't know what I believe". Until you DO in fact know, like the majority of the posters in here, it might be a good idea not to post until you DO learn what you believe. All you are doing is upsetting people, including 2 that you have always had defending you to the rest of us. That speaks volumes right there.
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You know what, this is pointless. There is a whole thread dedicated to logical evidence (a thread which you have posted on Case for a Creator). I have linked to several websites and one in particular that gives plenty of good evidence. It is your choice to read it, it is your choice to accept it. But obviously you have not chosen to read it. You claimed that you went through godisimaginary, methodically reading through all 50 proofs. Yet, when it comes to godandscience...I'm not seeing any evidence that you have read through it as methodically.
You call it pointless because I am able to knock-down any pro-god statement on here (and other threads, like Case for a Creator), yes? I HAVE read through several of the articles on godandscience; so has my husband. They can only be described as "slimeing through topics with tentacles". They're very slick and convincing to those who do not critically read and/or question.
In terms of acceptance, there are some very basic, major flaws of Christianity (like the blackmail of hell or abundance of evil) that cannot be overcome and ruin the whole concept. I do appreciate the challenge of beefing up my debating skills, however, and it is of course good to be in the loop on the latest tricks and tactics religion has going for brainwashing the masses. This may sound harsh to you, but it is truth.
You do not WANT to believe in God and therefore any evidence or explanation is dismissed.
I already have believed in god, so what are you talking about?
I think it'd be great if there truly was a *nice* god (none of that hell business); unfortunately, this is not reality. Most people can delude themselves into thinking there is a god for a variety of reasons, and even in the face of clear evidence against their personal deity of choice, press on in their "faith" because they desperately want god to be true. It takes a few strong men and women to be INTELLECTUALLY HONEST with themselves and realize hey, the universe doesn't owe me a god. I can't change reality, no matter how uncomfortable I am with certain aspects of it (like only having one life). And I'm okay with that.
* Many of the greatest scientists in history were Christians or had Biblical presuppositions.
Someone has already pointed out this is a silly thing for Christians to try to claim. Of course most past scientists believed in god; we've only made tremendous progress in the past century or so! Also, before Darwin, no one could explain the origin of life. Therefore, many who claimed to be deists in the past would be ATHEISTS by today's standards had they known what we know.
93+% of scientists DON'T believe in god today. That's not just a majority. It's an overwhelming majority.
* For most of these, their faith was the driving force behind their discoveries.
O rly? Thinking that you've had all of the answers from the beginning is NEVER a driving force for discoveries! :bs:
* True self-sustaining modern science (not just engineering, logic or mathematics) was born within a Christian society.
So why was Galileo (and many other scientists) condemned by the Catholic church then, eh? Why is your camp trying to have a monopoly on stem cell research? Why do you call the well-supported fact of evolution "evilution" and try to teach that our Earth is a laughable 6,000 years old?
It is those who can leave the Bible on the bookshelf where it belongs that have contributed most to our progress. To say that religion is even remotely supportive of science is so completely wrong, I'm surprised the author has the *bleep* to assert it.
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Everything in life is a choice? It can be a good choice or bad choice. Period. Nothing else.
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Carl Sagan said that evolution’s natural conclusion is atheism, but in his book ‘Cosmos’, Sagan stated:
“Our ancestors worshiped the Sun, and they were far from foolish. And yet the Sun is an ordinary, even a mediocre star. If we must worship a power greater than ourselves, does it not make sense to revere the Sun and stars? “
God said that men would worship what is created instead of giving glory to the Creator; Sagan said that it is not foolish to worship the sun and stars, and yet the church wants to bring this pagan religion into its doctrine.
Poor atheist writers. Always getting quoted out of context. :'( R.I.P. Sagan.
Even in Jesus’ day, many who believed in Him were afraid of public ridicule. The turned their back on true faith because “they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God”.
Interesting you should bring this up, as my husband and I had a discussion about this very thing in the car today. He said, "Wow, Jesus must have done a really sh*tty job of convincing everyone that he was god. He supposedly walked on water, healed the sick and blind, turned water into wine, etc. -- any reasonable group would NOT hang, torture, and murder a person like that! So they must not have believed he was really god. He had like, what? Only 3 women or something and a few disciples that really believed him. Everyone else HATED him. That's pretty fishy because if one truly believed in the validity of a reward of heaven and the risk of hell, they would not deny someone claiming to be god just so they could "live it up" for the next 20 - maybe 50 - years of their puny, earthly life."
Faith is not forcing ourselves to believing what our minds reject
Of course it is! You really must not think about things too critically to be a good Christian. :thumbsup: When you have a doubt, reasonable concern, or valid question, make sure you are stocked up on your "God did it!" stickers. :star: :star:
(i.e. Darwin and evolutionary prophets)
There goes the slimy, falsehood terminology again.
If evolution is god, follow evolution, but if God is the Lord, follow Him.
Um, evolution isn't a deity. It's a natural process and explanation. I understand you hate science, Christians, but you should at least try to pick retorts that make sense.
Once you mix truth with error, it all becomes error.
Why do y'all not apply this tidbit to your Bible? It's brimming with contradictions and errors. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)
The god of Theistic Evolution is just as much a pagan god as Baal. Each of us must choose who we are to serve.
This is just crazy.
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You call it pointless because I am able to knock-down any pro-god statement on here
No, I call it pointless because you keep asking me questions I have already answered.
I already have believed in god, so what are you talking about?
Just because you believed in God at one time doesn't mean anything. Calling yourself a christian because you go to church is like calling yourself a mechanic because you're standing in a mechanic's shop. You decided there was no God. You meticulously researched every bit of information you could get your hands on so to justify a belief so that you would no longer be held accountable to a God you never bothered to understand. (And I say this based on the fact that you claimed you never read books or tried to prove anything about God when you were a christian).
Now you feel you have the answers to all the religious nonsense, and you don't WANT to believe in God. You don't read information looking for anything that logically explains scripture or gives evidence for God's existence, you read it with the intention of finding a flaw. You are not interested in finding out truth because you think you already found it. You are not reading the opposing information with an open mind to be proven wrong. You can say that isn't true but your real attitude about it comes out loud and clear. You claim godandscience is slimy....how so? What information do you have that reasonably contradicts the information?
I think godisimaginary is slimy and is convincing to those who take it at face value and don't critically read or question it. godandscience showed me where godisimaginary left out some important information in trying to prove the ineffectiveness of prayer. It didn't reference the latter website but since I had already read it, I realized how slimy it really was! It cited an experiment done and conveniently used an example that proved their point instead of citing the entire experiment which proved that prayer works. Slimy indeed.
I think you very INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST. That's my opinion of course.
I don't desperately want God to be true. If I could believe with reasonable logic and overwhelming evidence to prove he doesn't exist, I would be most happy to let go of a faith that is so demanding. God expects a lot from me and my sinful desires cause me discomfort in denying my sinful nature. Denying my sinful nature is what God expects. So would I like to not have to be morally accountable to a God that is perfect? ABSOLUTELY. But, I know better than that. I am not unhappy believing in God but it would certainly make things easier if God didn't really exist, wouldn't it? I could set my own moral standard and have no one to answer to.
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Of course most past scientists believed in god
Associations of scientists who believe in God...they are not past scientists. My point was that you should argue with them but of course you probably think they are all delusional and just have some crazy need to believe.
* Access Research Network
* American Scientific Affiliation
* Association of Christians in the Mathematical Sciences
* Canadian Science and Christian Affiliation
* Christian Association for Psychological Studies
* Christian Medical & Dental Associations
* Christians in Science
* Institute on Religion in an Age of Science
* Metanexus Institute
* Pascal Centre
* Presbyterian Association on Science, Technology, and the Christian Faith
* Reasons To Believe
* Science and Religion Forum
* Zygon Center for Religion and Science
It is true that scientists believe less in the existence of God than the general population of the United States. However, the recent study by Ecklund, and Scheitle reveals that the most important factors in belief were related to upbringing and family status, and not area of expertise. The fact that social scientists as well as those in the natural sciences expressed nearly the same disbelief in God suggests that rejection of God's existence is not a result of knowledge in any particular area of expertise. It is likely that those who have rejected religious morality (i.e., those who were cohabiting) wanted to justify their behavior by saying that there was very little truth in any religion. The conclusion by the authors:
"Instead, particular demographic factors, such as age, marital status, and presence of children in the household, seem to explain some of the religious differences among academic scientists... Most important, respondents who were raised in religious homes, especially those raised in homes where religion was important are most likely to be religious at present."http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_are_scientists_atheists.html
Visit the page for more information about the study. Unless of course it's too slimy for you ;)
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When you have a doubt, reasonable concern, or valid question, make sure you are stocked up on your "God did it!" stickers.
Or better yet, get our your "evolution did it" stickers :star: After all thats what evolutionists did with the Cambrian explosion. They can't explain it, they tried with punctuated equilibrium, but you can't believe in gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, but who cares if it can't be explained by evolutionary theory. Let's just say "evolution did it" because that's the only answer that's logical.
Chemical origins of life are not provable, but that's okay "evolution did it". We know it can be explained by evolution, we just can't explain it at this moment...but we will eventually cuz you know "evolution did it"
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Just because you believed in God at one time doesn't mean anything.
It sure does! You seem to have a TON of false stereotypes stored upstairs about atheists, Sherna. I sincerely believed in the Christian god; I'll scan images of the church sermons I made a book of sometime to prove it. I know what you are talking about by "mushy" believers who only say they believe in a god when asked, but then live their lives very secularly. I wasn't one of those. I was involved in several church groups, went to revivals, had a MySpace and book started about Jesus, and even wrote on dollar bills directing people to a site about hell.
It's pretty insulting for current Christians to claim that anyone who has ever left the fold wasn't a True Christian (TM) to begin with. How do you know??
You meticulously researched every bit of information you could get your hands on so to justify a belief so that you would no longer be held accountable to a God you never bothered to understand. (And I say this based on the fact that you claimed you never read books or tried to prove anything about God when you were a christian).
Another false stereotype. I tried to prove god wrong so I wouldn't have to be "accountable"? NO. I simply desired to know if my beliefs were really real. They turned out not to be. As for reading Christian books and whatnot, as I mentioned before, I did read SOME, and was a regular attender of Bible studies and the like. I was on the freaking PRAISE DANCE TEAM where our group would dance to a song before the congregation during church!!
you don't WANT to believe in God.
False stereotype #3. It's not that I don't "want" to, it's that I am unable to. I have this weird mind virus that cannot substitute man-made fiction for truth. :dontknow:
You don't read information looking for anything that logically explains scripture
Why didn't god make the Bible so that it is accessible and easily understood by EVERYONE? Seems to be that the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth are not so basic...why should god's word have to be "explained" or "justified"? Shouldn't the word of god be clear as crystal? This muddled, problem-ridden ancient text scribed by fallible men is the best the all-mighty creator of the universe could do?? Why did he choose to communicate with us via a book, anyway? Surely something like "Copyright 1964, God" at the end of someone's DNA code would have been better?
You claim godandscience is slimy....how so? What information do you have that reasonably contradicts the information?
Because even when I've read it I've had to admit, "Hey, this is really slick! This would have convinced ME as a believer!" Anytime you've quoted that site, I've addressed the fault in their claims.
I would be most happy to let go of a faith that is so demanding. God expects a lot from me and my sinful desires cause me discomfort in denying my sinful nature. Denying my sinful nature is what God expects. So would I like to not have to be morally accountable to a God that is perfect? ABSOLUTELY. But, I know better than that. I am not unhappy believing in God but it would certainly make things easier if God didn't really exist, wouldn't it? I could set my own moral standard and have no one to answer to.
I hope you can at least realize the possibility that you may be mistaken about there actually being a god; that perhaps you, too, are just a casualty that got sucked into the head games that are required to believe in such things. Once again, it makes me very sad that your religion tells you that you are a dirty, bad person simply for being born, and it makes me very angry that they've convinced you that an "all-loving" god will punish and torture you forever in a fiery furnace if you don't worship him. You're only guaranteed one life, and this kind of superstitious dogma is what you're spending it on!
And hello, you'd still be morally accountable just the same without god. The cops will still get you if you break the law, your spouse will still dump you if you abuse them, your friend will stop being your friend if you burn them too badly. You'd still have society to "answer to", and if you chose to become a detriment to it, we'll gladly remove you from it (via prison). ["You" is in general, not specifically you, Sherna ;)]
As for things being "easier" that god doesn't exist, umm...yes and no. Yes in that you'll realize you've been living life without god all along and have survived thus far; yes in that you'll strive to live your only life to the fullest rather than sacrificing parts of it for an afterlife that will never come; yes in that you'll no longer have to fear the awful invention called hell...no in that most of the world has not caught up mentally yet, making us live in the 21st century with Bronze Age ideas; no in that when you feel completely alone, you really are; no in that now you actually have to work HARD to get the things you want in life, you can't count on them just magically falling into your lap through prayer.
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My point was that you should argue with them but of course you probably think they are all delusional and just have some crazy need to believe.
Not completely delusional! Plenty of people can be highly intelligent and perform their jobs just fine without their god belief getting in the way. It's called compartmentalizing.
the recent study by Ecklund, and Scheitle reveals that the most important factors in belief were related to upbringing and family status, and not area of expertise. The fact that social scientists as well as those in the natural sciences expressed nearly the same disbelief in God suggests that rejection of God's existence is not a result of knowledge in any particular area of expertise. It is likely that those who have rejected religious morality (i.e., those who were cohabiting) wanted to justify their behavior by saying that there was very little truth in any religion.
Hey! This is actually one of the parts I read on my own on that site!
Yes, very slimy...so denying god has very little to do with a career that is devoted to discovering how the universe actually works? Really? Why such a high concentration of non-believers in this particular field, then? Shouldn't the numbers of atheists be (mostly) evenly dispersed throughout ALL career fields? But that's not what we see!
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I have a question and I was wondering if someone who knows the Bible inside and out could answer it for me:
Why are there religious groups that say "God hates fags"? If God created humans and didn't want any of them to be gay why did he make some of them gay? And if you believe that homosexuality is a choice why did he give humans the ability to choose to be gay?
Well God doesn't hate his children. He gets angered by the choices they make. Being gay is a choice. God is merciful and He did give humans free will straight from the beginning. That's how Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit in the first place because He created them with free will. He was simply testing them and they failed. Therefore, they were punished and so were we. But now we can repent through Jesus Christ our savior because he died for our sins so that we may have eternal life. Everyone has a choice but God will always give you a way to get out of it. For example in this verse, Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
Therefore, I conclude that being gay is merely a temptation and God does give a person a way to get out of it. It goes along the same lines as being a drug addict or an alcoholic. As I have read and heard many testimonies at church about people who were gay and suddenly realized that it was a temptation that sucked them into that lifestyle in the first place. Then again I'm not God and I can't judge anyone. Jesus will be the one judging all of us once Judgement Day comes around not me.
As for homosexuality,
this is what the bible says
Leviticus chapter 18 verse 22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
It also goes on to talk about *bleep* as well. (No sex with animals.)
If you are interested in learning more, you can read the whole chapter on Unlawful Sexual Relations Leviticus Chapter 18 Verses 1 through 30. I hope this helped.
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Well I've been reading some things here and I see some skeptics out there who don't believe in God but believe me when Judgement Day comes you will surely know it. Not one but all people, of all religions, all nationalities, different creeds, sects, countries, whatever will have to answer to Jesus on that day. He will be judging all of us. None of us are exempt. Repent before it's too late people. I just wish that I was alive during Jesus Christ's time. I would've definitely followed him. No question about it. Did you not read about the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls? About Caesar? Here's the verse that clearly states Caesar's name "Caesar's," they replied. He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." Luke 20:25 You know that famous Roman emperor that's mentioned in the Bible that we have to study about in social studies. What have teachers been lying to us all these years in school? I don't think so. It's definitely fact and definitely talked about in the Bible. Do you not realize that the middle east has been at war since Bible times? Israel is such a tiny country and it's protected. All the other countries around it fight to gain control of it and they can't. Just a little heads up before you start denying that God does not exist. I'll just have to pray at night for each and everyone of you. That's all because as Christians believe it or not that's what we do. Of course, for you skeptics who don't believe. How did we come to be then? Give me an answer, because it sure wasn't from evolution. I can tell you that much. If it was then there wouldn't be anymore gorillas, apes, or monkeys in the world. Don't you think? Just a few things to think about.
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Do you not realize that the middle east has been at war since Bible times? Israel is such a tiny country and it's protected. All the other countries around it fight to gain control of it and they can't. Just a little heads up before you start denying that God does not exist.
Oh really? Countries being at war over something and having this mentioned in writing PROVES NOTHING. Should we believe in Spiderman, then, since New York City is mentioned?
There's wars there BECAUSE people believe in god and stupid sh*t like "holy lands". There's not wars there because there "is" a god. BIG difference. What about all of the wars BEFORE Christianity? Does Athens getting invaded prove the Greek religions? Obviously not. Do some research before you claim these assertions!
I'll just have to pray at night for each and everyone of you.
Okay, but you'll be wasting your time. And not in the way that you think. To say "I'll pray for you" is such a phony, self-righteous statement. I doubt you'll actually pray for any of us; it's just a "nice" thing to say, now isn't it? I know you'll be up late watching Jimmy Kimmel instead. lol
How did we come to be then? Give me an answer, because it sure wasn't from evolution.
Well I came from my parents, and they came from their parents, and so on...
If it was then there wouldn't be anymore gorillas, apes, or monkeys in the world. Don't you think? Just a few things to think about.
*face palm* YOU telling US to think after ending with a line like that? Haha!
Thanks for showing that you really don't know anything about evolution. Cubarican -- if Americans came from Europe, then why are there still Europeans?! Oh noes!
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We were also at one time in the trees who got down in search of food and then started walking upright, eventually. ???
The Ramapithecines, which include such species as Sivapithecus and Ramapithecus, are the direct forebears of Australopithecus and therefore of man. Many anthropologists say it took man's ancestors, not man, not humans to go from living in trees to walking on the ground. It's estimated that happened four million to eight million years ago.
Ramapithecines is a genus of extinct primates, which are animals and NOT humans.
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Well queenofnines I'll just have to pray for you then. Let Jesus be the judge of you once that day comes. As you know this country of America was founded by Christians. It just got perverted along the way when people started losing faith. But the day will come eventually. Hopefully by then it won't be too late for you. You can continue on and on but you're not going to change my point of view. Of course I know I can't change yours but someone or something will one day. Obviously, there's something bigger out there that created us. You just don't want to see that. But that's ok you can continue to have a closed mind and no conscience if you want to. Don't worry one day all the answers you're looking for will be revealed.
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Do you not realize that the middle east has been at war since Bible times? Israel is such a tiny country and it's protected. All the other countries around it fight to gain control of it and they can't. Just a little heads up before you start denying that God does not exist.
Oh really? Countries being at war over something and having this mentioned in writing PROVES NOTHING. Should we believe in Spiderman, then, since New York City is mentioned?
There's wars there BECAUSE people believe in god and stupid sh*t like "holy lands". There's not wars there because there "is" a god. BIG difference. What about all of the wars BEFORE Christianity? Does Athens getting invaded prove the Greek religions? Obviously not. Do some research before you claim these assertions!
I'll just have to pray at night for each and everyone of you.
Okay, but you'll be wasting your time. And not in the way that you think. To say "I'll pray for you" is such a phony, self-righteous statement. I doubt you'll actually pray for any of us; it's just a "nice" thing to say, now isn't it? I know you'll be up late watching Jimmy Kimmel instead. lol
How did we come to be then? Give me an answer, because it sure wasn't from evolution.
Well I came from my parents, and they came from their parents, and so on...
If it was then there wouldn't be anymore gorillas, apes, or monkeys in the world. Don't you think? Just a few things to think about.
*face palm* YOU telling US to think after ending with a line like that? Haha!
Thanks for showing that you really don't know anything about evolution. Cubarican -- if Americans came from Europe, then why are there still Europeans?! Oh noes!
Well girl you don't know me and I don't know you. Of course it's not self righteous to pray for anyone. It's a privilege that I have. You can pray too if you want. Don't know who you would pray to. But yeah, I pray everyday and believe me my life is better because of it. And seriously, when did Spiderman become relevant in this conversation? To tell you the truth queenofnines, I have no idea who Jimmy Kimmel is. So you wasted your time writing that one. I would take a million face palms to defend what I believe in. Keep them coming girl.
As for this line you wrote right here "Thanks for showing that you really don't know anything about evolution. Cubarican -- if Americans came from Europe, then why are there still Europeans?! Oh noes!"
I know you should be much more smarter than to write something so dumb like that. It's obvious there are still Europeans in this world. But that evolution crap doesn't make sense at all. But whatever I'm not going to bash you anymore because I don't know you and I don't want to offend you anymore. I suggest if you see my opinion in a forum don't quote me and just ignore me. Thanks! Hasta la vista queenofnines!
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As you know this country of America was founded by Christians.
No it wasn't. There were some Christians, some deists, some puritans, and even atheists. Even if they were all 100% Christian, that would have no relevance to what we should believe today. P.S. They founded a secular (free from religious oppression) government. If you want a theocracy, move to the Middle East.
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin
It just got perverted along the way when people started losing faith.
Christians are still the majority, so why are you blaming it on the faithless? Statistics show the more religious an area/group is, the more likely it is to suffer from various social ills. We have it pretty damn good in America, anyway; I don't know why people bemoan "the good ol' days". That's just the thing to do, I guess.
Of course I know I can't change yours but someone or something will one day.
I've already done my time as a True Christian; I got the stamp in my Passport of Life and have no plans to go back.
Obviously, there's something bigger out there that created us.
Yes, yes there is. It's called the universe.
But that's ok you can continue to have a closed mind and no conscience if you want to.
It took an OPEN mind to get me out of religion. The only "open-mindedness" that exists there is the ability to persuade yourself with delusions. As for no conscience, I am a hell of a lot more moral than the god of the Bible. Have you read it??
And seriously, when did Spiderman become relevant in this conversation?
I mentioned him to prove a point...it doesn't matter if a holy book mentions a few actual places, names, or events. Christians try to use theirs as a weak "proof" for god, but as we can see from Spidey, it doesn't prove anything.
I know you should be much more smarter than to write something so dumb like that.
Funny you should make such a judgement, for two reasons: 1) this is your first experience with me and 2) any intelligent person can see that joke about Europeans WAS clever. It's clever because the point is we came from a common ancestor, and that's why there are still Europeans (primates, too). Get it?
But that evolution crap doesn't make sense at all.
Probably because the only information you have on it is a bunch of misconceptions. Tell me why we have an appendix, then, and why whales have bones for legs?
I suggest if you see my opinion in a forum don't quote me and just ignore me.
Sorry, I'm not the type of person who backs down just because things get a little heated. ;)
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We were also at one time in the trees who got down in search of food and then started walking upright, eventually. ???
The Ramapithecines, which include such species as Sivapithecus and Ramapithecus, are the direct forebears of Australopithecus and therefore of man. Many anthropologists say it took man's ancestors, not man, not humans to go from living in trees to walking on the ground. It's estimated that happened four million to eight million years ago.
Ramapithecines is a genus of extinct primates, which are animals and NOT humans.
When are you going to realize that we are related to our ancestors?
How dare you even write that to me. I have stood on my head defending evolution and know more about it than you could possibly learn or forget. You know what? This sudden turn around into you now defending evolution makes me ill, you hypocrite.
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I have stood on my head defending evolution and know more about it than you could possibly learn or forget.
Shut up! You're stupid! You know more than I can learn...psh
Now, now, little girl, calm down. Shut up is NOT very grown up and I am far from stupid, another 'not nice'. It's okay for someone to know much more than you do. I won't qualify your last meat eating post, because you, as usual, did not bother to check out the source of the words you copied ie Wesley J. Smith. Among other things, he is a retired lawyer who fights for farmers and companies who raise cattle and other animals for slaughter. He is against animal rights activists. He feels they are attempting to take away human rights when it comes to animals and is very much against those who say we should all eat less meat. I have read some things he has written (he's a very published author in Bio-Ethics, but not that well respected by many) before this.
It's obvious you know nothing as to why a human body has a long intestine, so that we can digest and use vegetables and fruits, and not a 'short' intestine like a carnivore, which was necesary for them to be able to quickly digest and expel all the toxins from their diet of primarily flesh. Would you like to me to continue on and explain the rest of the human body in relation to adaptations and evolution, 'Miss IQ of 174'?
I will not just sit here and suck down what you post if it is not accurate.
If you want to get back into the name calling and childish rudeness, be ready for it to come back on you.
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To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason
Here goes my brain cramping again...I wonder if it is actually bad for my health to be in this forum?? ::)
The Bible tells us about things outside our experience. Nobody, born in our lifetime, walks on water or rises from the grave on the third day. So in order to accept the Bible, we must bridge the gap between what we know or believe, and what we trust. And that bridge is not reason; it is faith. But the Bible also does not ask us to build the bridge without a foundation, which is knowledge. Therefore, I believe that reason is not the enemy of trust; it is an essential part of the foundation. It follows, of course, that the foundation should be solid, not made of falsehoods or clever stories that melt away. It must include the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. Our foundation of knowledge also includes what we believe to be true from science and from the Word of God
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Imagine, looking at the illustration above, that the bolded asterisks are what represent human capacity for logic and understanding, everything in that bolded realm is the natural and explainable. In this bolded realm there is natural evidence for the existence of God, this evidence is rational, logical, and reasonable. But it does not represent God's entire character; but only a hint and glimpse of who and what God is and what he is capable of because, this is as far as our human minds can take us. Outside the bolded realm is unknowable. But within the bolded realm we can have reason to trust what is outside our natural understanding, based on the logic and knowledge found within our capabilities. We can have faith of what exists outside our understanding BASED on reasonable deductions made from within our understanding.
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The Bible tells us about things outside our experience.
That's amazing, because the Bible tells us very little outside the experiences of ancient goat herders. There was nothing about E=MC2, germs, DNA, electricity, basic physics, don't rape, don't have slaves...pretty much anything of any importance in our society today. This is supposed to be THE WORD OF GOD - c'mon now! But all we get is explanations that are to be **expected** from primitive people who had no concept of these things... The only thing I can think of that is "good" in the Bible is The Golden Rule, but that came way before Jesus, anyway, and was just repeated.
Nobody, born in our lifetime, walks on water or rises from the grave on the third day. So in order to accept the Bible, we must bridge the gap between what we know or believe, and what we trust.
Please explain why god stopped doing these miraculous things?? I know - because they never happened at all!
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Tell me why we have an appendix, then,
That is a very good question. In fact it is so good that it puzzled doctors for many years. If you read last month's question and answer, you will remember that many years ago organs such as the tonsils and the appendix were thought to be useless “leftovers” of evolution. These parts were called vestigial (ve-STIJ-ee-al) organs. The word “vestigial” means a trace or a mark left by something, much like a footprint. It was thought that these “useless” organs were marks or “footprints” of evolution.
However, as doctors learned more about these organs, especially the appendix, they discovered that they are not useless after all. The appendix is a small pouch that extends off the large intestine. It also is called the vermiform (worm-shaped) appendix because it looks like a three-inch earthworm. In recent years, doctors have observed that the appendix is a tough soldier against infection, especially in people who have been exposed to some types of radiation. Inside the appendix is lymphoid (LIM-foid) tissue which helps produce white blood cells that fight disease. Also, early
in a child's life the appendix is relatively larger than it is in adults. It is during these early stages of life that the appendix appears to play an even bigger role in guarding the body from infection.
The more we learn about the human body, the more we realize that it does not have “useless” parts. In fact, the Bible teaches that humans are “fearfully and wonderfully made” (Psalm 139:14). The old familiar child's saying is true: “God doesn't make junk!”
Where did you plagiarizer that from?
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Where did you plagiarizer that from?
oops forgot to put a link.
AHWW MY GAWD!!!!! I MUSS BE PSYCHIC!!!!!
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Please explain why god stopped doing these miraculous things?? I know - because they never happened at all!
Whatever makes you feel better ;)
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Wow, ok I was gone a few days and this topic seems to have really exploded... a little off topic actually, from homosexuality to perfection to power, etc. Anyway here are a few observations:
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, insolent, arrogant and boastful
Hmm, well I have a few gay friends and I know for a fact that they are not full of strife and murder. And as for all the character traits, those can be applied to straight people as much as homosexuals. My mom is a gossip, my friend's brother is arrogant and boastful, my aunt's ex-husband is slanderous, insolent, arrogant, malicious, and deceitful... all of those people are straight. My gay friends share none of those character traits, save for one who is envious of my artistic ability. I fail to see how my aunt's ex-husband is more benevolent than my gay friends.
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. -- Leviticus 18:22
Well this doesn't answer my question at all. It just says that homosexuality is an abomination, it doesn't say why. I suppose the passages from the previous quote could be classified as the 'why' but those reasons are false, as exemplified by the straight and gay people in my life.
It is not hard to see that all of you atheists have so much pain and grief and comes through so eloquently in your writing.
Tsk. Tsk. Broad generalizations like this are exactly what things like racism consist of. Do all Asians know karate? Are all white people bad at sports? Are all black people addicted to KFC? Do all atheists have so much pain and grief? No. Just no. Try to use logic to defend your position and never slander your opponent. It offers no benefit to your argument. Plus TimeforGod, through a quote from the Bible, classified slander as a sinister trait attributable to homosexuals.
I just cant wrap my mind around the intolerance....if they aren't grabbing your *bleep* or victimizing your relations, why do you care so much?
My thoughts exactly. Well said my friend.
It was the act of disobedience that opened Adam and Eve’s eyes to evil.
Sometimes disobedience is necessary to correct an evil. Just because a rule is set does not make it 'good', whether the rule be set by man or God, they can be unjust and must be disobeyed.
For example:
Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves... You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life."
The Bible says you can own slaves but I think most people would agree with me when I say slavery is an evil establishment and these particular words from the Bible should not be obeyed.
Alright, I've only gotten through reading to the 3rd page but I have other things to do tonight. Know that I intend to read every post on this topic and hope that someone will provide me with a reasonable answer to the question, "Why is the Bible against homosexuals." The gist of the answers so far is "The Bible says homosexuality an abomination, so don't do it" I want to know why? Why is it considered an abomination? Because the only reason I see right now is simple-minded prejudice. I want a real reason with real logic. Please. I want the truth, and I hope its not just prejudice.
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Know that I intend to read every post on this topic and hope that someone will provide me with a reasonable answer to the question, "Why is the Bible against homosexuals." The gist of the answers so far is "The Bible says homosexuality an abomination, so don't do it" I want to know why? Why is it considered an abomination?
Well in my original comment, I told you I think it IS just prejudice. People always seem to want someone to hate (blacks, women)...and if the Bible states something that makes them uncomfortable is wrong (i.e. homosexual relations), they're going to jump all over that and take advantage of it. I think it is also an easy commandment to become "passionate" about...there are plenty of things Christians flat-out IGNORE sbout the Bible, but this homosexuality being a sin thing, it still has a lot of relevance today; it is still a hot topic. Rest assured, in 20 or 30 years (or sooner), gays will have the same rights as anyone else in the eyes of society, and to criticize them will be considered SHAMEFUL by all. It's just unfortunate that it takes so long to get there. Do we not learn anything from history?!
Common arguments against homosexuality, and their rebuttals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm3cWytGAqw&playnext=1&videos=M7SVUVVbzJM
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Bible is a man made book. God is so perfect that he doesn't care about gays and lesbians, but how well we interact with each other. This world is too full of rules, what you can and cannot do, if we are always thinking about what is a sin, what is not a sin, we will never live life to the fullest. Life is good, man just make it miserable.
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29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, insolent, arrogant and boastful
Hmm, well I have a few gay friends and I know for a fact that they are not full of strife and murder. And as for all the character traits, those can be applied to straight people as much as homosexuals. My mom is a gossip, my friend's brother is arrogant and boastful, my aunt's ex-husband is slanderous, insolent, arrogant, malicious, and deceitful... all of those people are straight. My gay friends share none of those character traits, save for one who is envious of my artistic ability. I fail to see how my aunt's ex-husband is more benevolent than my gay friends.
I think you are reading a little too much into the scripture. These are not traits of gay men these are traits of sinners. My point is that Homosexuality is a sin just like murder, and deceit. Christians are not perfect we sin just as a homosexual sin. It doesn’t mean we should tolerate the sin. It means we love the sinner hate the sin! I have Homosexual friends so this is a hard subject for me as a believer. But I will tell you just as I tell them. You would not want me to abuse a child and call myself a Christian, Just like I wouldn't want you to sleep with a man and call yourself a Christian, But if we believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL our sins then that means ALL. Not just the ones we think in our human minds that we can tolerate like gossip. You can be delivered from Homosexuality just like you can be delivered from Drug and Alcohol abuse. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36 8)
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A good website concerning religion and homosexuality: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm
Concerning Sodom and Gomorrah... the acts themselves were not condemned...it was the inhospitable nature of the citizens that were condemned. I get sick of hearing people use Sodom and Gomorrah as an excuse to discriminate against homosexuals. Its about loving your neighbor and the golden rule...not about how people **** each other.
Do you want to look at scripture about loving your neighbor...read up on Ruth and Naomi. No...they were not lesbians, but these two women shared love for each other that transcended family. They accepted each other as they were. We need more of this in the world, instead of discriminating because we interpret the Bible to say that g-d condemns something. If g-d condemns something, let g-d do the condemning. G-d said love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). Do you want someone who is gay to tell you that you are doing something wrong in the privacy of your own bedroom? Of course not; so why should you tell them they are wrong?
Sure, there are other things in the KJV of the Bible that could be interpreted as g-d commanding us to do things that are, for lack of better words, not so loving. The thing is, though, that if we want g-d to be a forgiving and loving character, we should strive to do this ourselves. If we spend so much time preaching to people how they are wrong instead of loving them, how can we expect g-d to forgive our trespasses against the golden rule?
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Different translations of Romans 1:26-27
Romans 1:26-27 (New International Version)
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Romans 1:26-27 (King James Version)
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Romans 1:26-27 (English Standard Version)
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
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The verses are condemning acts that are unnatural to a person's nature. This does not necessarily mean that homosexuality is unnatural; but that they were acting in ways that were unnatural to their own nature. Many gay people say that they were born gay. I have known many gay people that definitely seem to embody that statement. I have a friend who says she knew she was gay long before she had any sexual inclination; she just knew she was different. She believes that g-d helped her come to this realization, and that g-d loves her and wants her to be happy. Recently, she and her partner of over a decade had a dedication ceremony in a church and they consider themselves married. I could not imagine heterosexuality to be anything but unnatural to either of them, and would be ashamed of anyone who tried to claim that they were sinning just by loving each other and being true to their natural inclinations.
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Those verses are pretty clear that homosexuality is considered unnatural in God's eyes. :confused1:
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Those verses are pretty clear that homosexuality is considered unnatural in God's eyes. :confused1:
It says the actions they took are contrary to nature. Your nature is heterosexuality. So, being with a woman would be unnatural to you.
The friend I mentioned in my post...she is homosexual. To have sexual relations with a male would be contrary to her nature.
The women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. The men abandoned their own natural relations with women for lusts for men. It does not say, however, that the only natural relations are those between men and women.
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You making a separate category of people that the scripture doesn't specify. You're saying that this scripture refers to men whose nature was to be with men, were working that which is unseemly by being with a woman!
Men committed indecent acts with other men
men with men working that which is unseemly
men committing shameless acts with men
This clearly states that men being with men is not ok with God.
Women changed the natural use into that which is against nature
It doesn't say "against their own nature". It simply says nature. God created Eve for Adam. He created woman for man and commanded the man to love his wife.
God did not create the rectum for sexual use, this is not it's natural purpose. Hetero or homosexual *bleep* sex is considered unnatural in God's eyes.
This is just an example of how people try to interpret scripture to justify themselves. Homosexuals, are no less important to God, he doesn't hate them. Heterosexuals are not better or superior to gay people, because heterosexuals are not sin free. However, saying that homosexuality is wrong is a moral judgment that Christians have a right to make based on what scripture says.
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I read all replies on this topic shook my head and was a little disgusted..Sorry but you are born Gay it is not like you wake up one day and say hey I think I am gay and decide to go against what all religious people say god thinks is wrong.(which is bs)Sorry if there is a god and we are supposedly his children(bs again) he would love us no matter what..You may feel it is unnatural a abomination or whatever that's your feelings or I am sorry your gods feelings..I chose to think for myself not have a entity I can not see or truly know what they expect of me..And in turn have some man tell me what is expected think not..
I created my children,I am responsible for who they become in society,not some holy spirit I need to force in their life's to make them fear what their minds may think..My children will grow up with NO prejudices against any human..Or fear of the unknown sin..
I also wanted to say some made some very very good points..I just hate reading some replies and feeling like I am being force feed religion because it HAS to be right..Its not right to single out a human for their sexual preference,color,race,beliefs non beliefs,so if this god does that I want no part..
Someone told me they believed in heaven all is forgiven even rapists,murderers and people who hurt children..I am sorry I do not want to be in this heaven with my rapist or the person who killed my best friend in the NAME OF GOD FOR BEING GAY!!
Sorry it really hits a nerve religion and homosexuality...I watched my friend die in the name of god..For being who she always was since achildhood..For loving a human of her same sex..Sick!! In court this wasteful person had the nerve to say put me to death I was doing gods work!!
Alright I need to walk away now!!
On this issue you obviously know where I stand!!
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You making a separate category of people that the scripture doesn't specify. You're saying that this scripture refers to men whose nature was to be with men, were working that which is unseemly by being with a woman!
You claim I am using scripture to suit my own needs. I am saying that in this scripture, there is room for interpretation. The scripture does not say "a woman was with another woman which is against human nature" but "women exchanged their natural relations for other ones." In fact, in the entire chapter, it says nothing about a woman sleeping with a specific gender.
It says the men abandoned natural relations with women, not that the only natural relations men have are with women. These men, in this verse, had a nature to be with women and they abandoned their own nature to be with women by sleeping with those they were not naturally inclined to sleep with. This verse could actually be interpreted to say that by sleeping with someone who it is not in your nature to sleep with that you are sinning. I am not trying to manipulate the words; just showing that there are possibilities for multiple interpretations.
If we are all g-d's children, why would g-d create someone with an inclination that is against g-d's wishes for us? Why would g-d knowingly want us to defy what g-d create us to be, and wish for us to go through some kind of religious sexual training so we could have sex "the right way"?
And if homosexuals are defying what g-d wishes for us to be, why would they do that? They sometimes alienate their families, friends, co-workers. They have to fear going out and being who they really are because someone inevitably will condemn them for being who they are. When bricks are thrown through their windows, they fear the police will do nothing and their neighbors will stand idly by because of their sexuality. If they are religious, they worry more so than heterosexuals that they are doomed for hellfire. They have to hide who they are if they want to work because many employers will not hire homosexuals for fear of appearing to be promoting a lifestyle that so many have deemed immoral. They can't marry the ones they love; many are even denied the right to be with their partners when they are hospitalized.
Who would choose that? Why would any rational person capable of making choices choose a life so fraught with discrimination and misery?
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Concerning Sodom and Gomorrah... the acts themselves were not condemned...
Yes they were, they were having sex all over the place...talk about disgusting, we are not wild animals.
Have you ever been to a club, the stuff that goes on in there is disgusting.
Women act like sluts because I know what the message is they deliver...in music videos, these chicks are nasty....
Have you read the story?
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Concerning Sodom and Gomorrah... the acts themselves were not condemned...
Yes they were, they were having sex all over the place...talk about disgusting, we are not wild animals.
Have you ever been to a club, the stuff that goes on in there is disgusting.
Women act like sluts because I know what the message is they deliver...in music videos, these chicks are nasty....
Have you read the story?
Yeah and God destroyed the city because of the ACTS
I suggest you re-read it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19&version=KJV
...and then read this: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hombibg193.htm
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For the sins of their inhabitants Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboim were destroyed by "brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah
The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are mentioned in other places, in association with sins of omission and commission, and of the heart as well as the flesh, and is often used as an example of judgment of the wicked
Show us, without using wikipedia preferably, how Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexuality instead of wicked acts against your neighbor/guests.
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Is there a point to be gay? It isn't like you can have babies.
Uh, the point is to be with who you truly love, not who society wants you to love. And the baby argument is just pointless, mainly due to overpopulation, but also because gay couples can and DO have their own children (it's called donor sperm and surrogacy!!).
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If we are all g-d's children, why would g-d create someone with an inclination that is against g-d's wishes for us
God did not create people with an inclination to be gay or do anything else he considers wrong.....he created people to be able to choose what is right or choose what is wrong. I realize that gay people suffer internally when they believe in God and want to serve him but think they are going to hell. I am not God and I cannot judge people. I can say I know that engaging in homosexual activity is a sin but it's no different than the sin of lying...something that I have done in my life.
Only God can judge a persons heart because He is the only one that knows a persons heart. I don't believe people are born gay, however if a person lives that kind of lifestyle but yet they love God with all the heart mind soul and strength, I am confident that God is not going to damn that person to hell because of a struggle with sin. I don't believe I am damned to hell because of my struggle with sin....I don't struggle with sexual immorality but I still sin.
My pastor gave a good example of how God separates the sinner from the sin. In the old testament, when a person sinned and brought their unblemished lamb for sacrifice....the appointed man of God (priest or what have you) would examine the lamb to make sure it was perfect. The priest did not examine the person bringing the lamb to see what kind of sin they had committed or how bad it was....he only looked at the lamb. That lambs blood covered the sin of that person and they were forgiven. As a matter of fact, that lamb covered their sins for a whole year! It covered future sins!!
I know you are Jewish but bear with me here
So for Christians...Jesus is that Lamb. Jesus blood has already been spilt for remission of our sins. When we sin, the Holy Spirit convicts (not condemns but convicts) so that we realize we need to repent. But when God sees our hearts it is already covered by that blood and he doesn't see the sin he sees the forgiven sinner. So it is the same with a homosexual person who has accepted Christ and loves God. God does not see their sin, he sees their heart. Once they get past feeling guilty about their sin, and they continue to seek a closer relationship with God, God will deliver them from a mindset that is telling them they are gay. I have already seen this happen.
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Show us, without using wikipedia preferably, how Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexuality instead of wicked acts against your neighbor/guests.
I am sure it wasn't just one sin but many. I reference places so you can can no longer debate with me but take it up with material elsewhere.
I wasn't debating with you. I was asking if you actually knew what you were debating about by reading it yourself instead of relying upon others to tell you what to think. And I have researched, as evidenced by the sites that I have linked, which do not happen to be wikipedia. ;)
So for Christians...Jesus is that Lamb. Jesus blood has already been spilt for remission of our sins. When we sin, the Holy Spirit convicts (not condemns but convicts) so that we realize we need to repent. But when God sees our hearts it is already covered by that blood and he doesn't see the sin he sees the forgiven sinner. So it is the same with a homosexual person who has accepted Christ and loves God. God does not see their sin, he sees their heart. Once they get past feeling guilty about their sin, and they continue to seek a closer relationship with God, God will deliver them from a mindset that is telling them they are gay. I have already seen this happen.
This sort of thinking is part of what hurts homosexuals, as I have referenced in my other posts.
Gay people have a defect in their brain.
Sigh. This type of statement is completely harmful and what makes people wish to not participate in discussion with you. You make a cavalier statement and then come back with a copy and pasted post that doesn't include any of your own personal thought. No one knows where you stand.
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Quote
So for Christians...Jesus is that Lamb. Jesus blood has already been spilt for remission of our sins. When we sin, the Holy Spirit convicts (not condemns but convicts) so that we realize we need to repent. But when God sees our hearts it is already covered by that blood and he doesn't see the sin he sees the forgiven sinner. So it is the same with a homosexual person who has accepted Christ and loves God. God does not see their sin, he sees their heart. Once they get past feeling guilty about their sin, and they continue to seek a closer relationship with God, God will deliver them from a mindset that is telling them they are gay. I have already seen this happen.
This sort of thinking is part of what hurts homosexuals, as I have referenced in my other posts
It doesn't hurt them! On the contrary for those who are conflicted in worshiping a God they love but fear will damn them.....it gives them hope! I'm not saying it gives them hope of NOT being gay because obviously that isn't their goal...however it is a natural result of seeking after God with all your heart! God is not looking at their sin and condemning them.....he is looking at a child that he loves with all his heart! How does knowing that God loves you despite your sin hurt you?!
This is important because this is not just for homosexuals but for everyone. STOP fearing hell and accept that God loves you, seek Him. While you are seeking Him, He brings changes in your life....you begin to love what God loves and hate what He hates! This is the course of a believers life. STOP trying to NOT sin, START trying to seek God with all your heart. And for Christians who say God hates fags....YOUR WRONG!! GOD HATES SIN..........HE LOVES PEOPLE!! ALL PEOPLE!!
Listen, for the person who started this thread. Stop worrying about WHY being gay is wrong, don't let ANYONE try to tell you what God thinks about gay people. Love your gay friends, that's what your supposed to do! For gay people who have faith in God but are worried about what other people say about their lifestyle...STOP WORRYING. Continue loving God and let Him work in your heart what is right and what is wrong. Be who you are, and just continue loving and searching after HIM!
EVERYONE HAS SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD!! Hell is NOT for "bad people" it is for those that reject God. If we have all sinned and we believe at least SOME people make it to heaven, it's safe to assume that SINNERS WILL GO TO HEAVEN. Only those who reject God and salvation go to hell!
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It doesn't hurt them! On the contrary for those who are conflicted in worshiping a God they love but fear will damn them.....it gives them hope! I'm not saying it gives them hope of NOT being gay because obviously that isn't their goal...however it is a natural result of seeking after God with all your heart! God is not looking at their sin and condemning them.....he is looking at a child that he loves with all his heart! How does knowing that God loves you despite your sin hurt you?!
This is important because this is not just for homosexuals but for everyone. STOP fearing hell and accept that God loves you, seek Him. While you are seeking Him, He brings changes in your life....you begin to love what God loves and hate what He hates! This is the course of a believers life. STOP trying to NOT sin, START trying to seek God with all your heart. And for Christians who say God hates fags....YOUR WRONG!! GOD HATES SIN..........HE LOVES PEOPLE!! ALL PEOPLE!!
I think we may just have to agree to disagree here. Their sexuality isn't just a sin; it is who they are. By telling a gay person to hate the sin, we are in essence telling them to hate themselves. I do have to say, though, that I believe you are sincere when you say what you say. I don't see you as the type to condemn someone, but to love them and attempt to help someone that needs help, even though I believe that in this instance, the help is not needed. I don't view homosexuality as sinful. :heart:
Yeah I know...it's isn't like being gay is gonna put you in hell...chill people....there is only one unforgivable sin and we have been over that.
Marie...you really need to take a break and really take a good solid look at the things you are saying here. Use that IQ you claim you have, because you are not really adding anything significant to this topic. It may be easy for you to say "chill people", but you're not the one that is being attacked over your sexuality.
My wish for you is that you start showing more compassion in what you say instead of the self-righteousness that comes across in your posts.
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I will show compassion when others show compassion for me.
That is such a loaded statement. I cannot even begin to convey what is wrong with it. It is taking every ounce of my patience not to call you names here. You need to open your eyes and ears, honey.
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I will show compassion when others show compassion for me.
That is such a loaded statement. I cannot even begin to convey what is wrong with it. It is taking every ounce of my patience not to call you names here. You need to open your eyes and ears, honey.
Or, she should just realize that many others are waiting for her to do the same thing.
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Who cares what religion says about homosexuality, Its completely normal from my point of view. I see it this way, If you have two people, one person likes toffe, and the other person likes chocolate, who's to say that each person couldn't have dreams, feelings or fantasies about the other person's candy?? Who's to say that people shouldn't be attracted to one another just because they are of the same sex? Human nature does. Attraction is a natural thing, its a chemical reaction in your body, and no religion governs how it works. The persons involved are the ones and if they are happy that's the way it should be.
When it comes to age, and rape, then yes, it is dictated by the law.
Oh yes, even the Pope doesn't agree with homosexuality, but as we speak, his own priests and clergymen in the Vatican, who are supposed to be celibate were found to be molesting little boys for a long time........
(see what happens??? Denying your sexual nature, whether it be toward the same sex or the opposite sex, is an unnatural behavior, which can have abnormal and preverted results! It is normal for an adult to be sexually active with another adult, not with a choir boy-FAIL!!!)
........Hmmmm, why exactly are people going to listen to these fools and how their religion believes state that it is wrong for two consenting adults of the same sex to get married, or be lovers, when they can't even control their own freakin' religious "peters" around children???? -they are all f@#@-up already, so who gives a "flying duck" about what the bible translates about homosexuality.
You dictate your life and how you live it...........
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5MWBKLclgs&feature=player_embedded
PLEASE STICK TO THE TOPIC!
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(see what happens??? Denying your sexual nature, whether it be toward the same sex or the opposite sex, is an unnatural behavior, which can have abnormal and preverted results! It is normal for an adult to be sexually active with another adult, not with a choir boy-FAIL!!!)
:notworthy: :notworthy:
........Hmmmm, why exactly are people going to listen to these fools and how their religion believes state that it is wrong for two consenting adults of the same sex to get married, or be lovers, when they can't even control their own freakin' religious "peters" around children????
Well said. My hubby likes this song about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHRDfut2Vx0 (Warning: explicit lyrics)
As for marie, I've come to the conclusion that she is who she says she is, and part of that makes her look like a troll.
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God doesn't "hate fags." He hates the sin, but loves the sinner.
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i don't understand why they blame god?/
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God doesn't "hate fags." He hates the sin, but loves the sinner.
Homosexuality isn't a sin.
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Do you know what an abomination (anything greatly disliked or abhorred,To regard with horror or loathing; detest) is? Is there a point to be gay? It isn't like you can have babies. Men have to stick it to the poop chute, is that sex? And women have nothing to even have sex with other women with.
Well then, to define something as an abomination is an opinion, not a fact. It is the opinion of the group of men who wrote the bible, not God's. Some people don't "dislike" homosexuality, therefore it is not a sin in their eyes. The word of the bible should be taken with a grain of salt because it was written by man and does contain flaws.
Looking back to a quote from the bible promoting slavery:
Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves... You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life."
This passage was written by men to justify the evil desires (to own slaves) of their time. And all the passages against homosexuality were likewise written to justify the evil desires (to hold sever hateful prejudices against homosexuals) of their time. Unfortunately people still hold onto those ancient and illogical prejudices.
Looking back to Is there a point to be gay? It isn't like you can have babies.
Is there a point to doing many of the things we do? Like going to the movies or playing cards or having a conversation about nothing in particular. Are those sins? No, they are just things people do sometimes. Besides the point of being gay is the same point as being straight: To express your love with the one you love.
Look back at what you said one more time. Is there a point to be gay? It isn't like you can have babies. Men have to stick it to the poop chute, is that sex? And women have nothing to even have sex with other women with.
Why should this be qualification for a sin? Why should this be cause for people to hate homosexuals? Where is the logic behind it all? Its all just, "Eew that's gross, I hate them, they're going to Hell." If God loves all his creations then so should everyone else. You don't have to partake in gay sex. But you should not despise someone who does. Everyone should be treated with respect. Illogical prejudices like these are all that is wrong in the world.
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Peds ftw!
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I wish nobody was homosexuals but unfortunatelty thats not the case, with that being said everybody lets start trying to better ourselves everyday and make the world a better place!!
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I wish nobody was homosexuals but unfortunatelty thats not the case, with that being said everybody lets start trying to better ourselves everyday and make the world a better place!!
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Then be gay if you want, but people are entitled to their own opinion. If someone thinks being gay is an abomination...then so be it.
There is a difference between someone saying "homosexuality is an abomination, but live and let live" and saying "gays are sinners and are hell bound, and I'm going to try to save them by voting for laws that don't provide equal rights, letting them know they are sinful, and beating a dude up if he hits on me."
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You know.....this is just sickening. I have known many gay men (not many women) and I loved them to pieces! They were so fun to hang out with, they made me laugh and I felt more comfortable with them knowing they weren't interested in me LOL. They are regular people for crying out loud. Do I agree with their lifestyle? NO. Do I promote gay rights? NO HOWEVER, that doesn't make them any less of a human being or worthy of respect. Haters need to get a dang grip!
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You know.....this is just sickening. I have known many gay men (not many women) and I loved them to pieces! They were so fun to hang out with, they made me laugh and I felt more comfortable with them knowing they weren't interested in me LOL. They are regular people for crying out loud. Do I agree with their lifestyle? NO. Do I promote gay rights? NO HOWEVER, that doesn't make them any less of a human being or worthy of respect. Haters need to get a dang grip!
Just to clarify...I see you in the "live or let live" camp. I doubt you are the type to drag one of your gay male friends to church against their will and try to pray the gay away. ;)
I agree, the hatred is sickening. Look at Brandon Teena and Matthew Shephard.
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Do I promote gay rights? NO HOWEVER, that doesn't make them any less of a human being or worthy of respect.
Um, when you are denying a people group basic civil rights that other people groups get to enjoy, that most certainly says, "You are less of a human being, and you don't deserve this respect." Just a heads up.
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I'm not denying their rights...I'm just not promoting them. And by promotion I mean, signing petitions and marching in gay parades. My gay friends do not hold that against me and though we disagree, they understand my position.
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marie, if you are speaking to me then you obviously haven't read my other posts on this particular subject. Gay people can get married, I don't care.....but I am not actively going to support a lifestyle that I think is immoral. People can argue with me that it isn't immoral, it's not going to change my mind.
My ENTIRE point is that God doesn't hate gay people, which was the original stance of the thread. I don't hate gay people, God doesn't hate gay people. Nobody needs to be hating anyone.
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Sherene, why bother? She just reversed what she said earlier and even said the sex was okay. ;)
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I don't know lol
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I'm not denying their rights...I'm just not promoting them.
Do you vote?
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Yes, I do. But I vote for candidates representing issues that are relevant to me. Gays marrying or not, is not relevant to me. If I vote for a candidate that is opposed to gay marriage, it's not based on that platform. Although, I have only voted once and that was in the last election. Before that I didn't start paying any attention to politics until G.W. Bush's first term of presidency.
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I'm a vegetarian. Are you saying that makes me un-intelligent?
I wouldn't say that, but i beleive as humans we are supposd to eat meat. that's why vegetarians usally have to take lots ad lots of vitamins to get the necessary nutrients to satisfy the needs of the human body. I believe our bdies are designed a certain way to interact with the balance of nature (like the food chain etc.). everything in nature has a purpose, everythin has function, every disease has a cure, and everything goes in a cycle. wow, i kinda strayed on this one, but it's just my view, my opinion.
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My views are : Maybe there are some gay people that are born with that trait, as someone put it to me before - there are hermaphrodites in existence, so that's evidence that there can be a mixture in sexuality. I believe there are real gay people, but just as few as there are hermaphrodites. For the most part i think a lot of people today are making the choice. They think "maybe i'm born gay" just because it' possible to be and considers that a scapegoat for curiosity or any other confrontation with the thoughts or experience. It may be what makes one happy, so be it. I'm fine with people being gay, i have no problem with it. I don't think it's right, but if it makes you happy, then go for it.
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Just like he didn't make people retarded or mentally ill, blind, deaf or deformed...these things just happen
But he created everything, so god is ultimately responsible for everything.
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Just like he didn't make people retarded or mentally ill, blind, deaf or deformed...these things just happen
But he created everything, so god is ultimately responsible for everything.
Yes, and He has His reasons for allowing those things to happen, even if we don't know why or understand why. Nobody likes that someone has to suffer for any reason, but apparently we can't see the whole picture like God can and does.
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Just like he didn't make people retarded or mentally ill, blind, deaf or deformed...these things just happen
But he created everything, so god is ultimately responsible for everything.
Yes, and He has His reasons for allowing those things to happen, even if we don't know why or understand why. Nobody likes that someone has to suffer for any reason, but apparently we can't see the whole picture like God can and does.
OH PLEASE! GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK ALREADY!!!! Thats some really funny stuff right there!!!!!
Soooo, what if this one you call God, is mentally challenged??? Hmmmm????
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The Bible says Judge lest ye fall into temptation!!! It also says we have all sinned and come short of GOD's glory! Noone can say that GOD doesn't love homosexuals. HE created the world and everything in it. HE gives man the right to choose!! We all know that all of our choices have consequences. If u have paid attention to what is happening in the world today and u read the Bible, u know that GOD is soon to return. HE will return for a church without spot or blemish! My only prayer is that we all examine ourselves and get back to our first love, which is GOD the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT!!!
Much love
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My only prayer is that we all examine ourselves and get back to our first love, which is GOD the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT!!!
I'll agree with the "all examine ourselves", but you are in NO position to deem anyone's "first love" but your own. There are many people here at FC and if you stick around these forums long enough, you will quickly find that this is not just a christian or religiously based group of people. Saying "get back to our first love"? Uhuh - misinformed and incorrect on that one.
I'm honestly not saying this to be 'mean' to you. I am just letting you know remarks like that one may quickly get you under fire here. It's good to see new faces and hope you stick around. ;)
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God created men with free will. He did not create evil, but man has a choice to engage in evil or engage in good. Homosexuality is a choice just like any other behavior. However, God does not hate homosexuals, nor does he hate any person period. He loves people, he hates sin.
CASE CLOSED
Amen!
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Amen!
Homosexuality isn't a sin outside of outdated reasonings. John Corvino makes it perfectly clear if anyone cares to educate themselves-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPzso1OOTPM&feature=related
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ok let me put this in how i got it thru my head
im bi to make it even easyier to get it
ok men wrote the bible years and years ago
they put down wat they say god toild them
they also out in thier own opoions
there fore someone didnt like gays and put some verse in it saying neither does god but in the bible it says god loves everybdy there for gays are apart of everybody :female: :female: :male: :male: yay! :angel12: :angel11:
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:angel11: It is written in the Bible that gays are against God's wishes . God is perfect - he created all things but he did not make peple gay -read your Bible
Just like he didn't make people retarded or mentally ill, blind, deaf or deformed...these things just happen
First, being gay is completely different than every example you just gave. Secondly, how did he NOT make people retarted, mentally ill, blind, deaf, or deformed? However, homosexuality falls into a totally different category.
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homosexuality falls into a totally different category.
Right, because people "choose" to want to be discriminated against. ::)
Scientists have already theorized that it may be conditions in the womb that cause people to turn out gay. When science has clear evidence that the origin of homosexuality is birth, what will your religion say then?
I'll see it in my lifetime, I'm sure! :thumbsup:
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Scientists have already theorized that it may be conditions in the womb that cause people to turn out gay.
Many of the initial studies, which were highly touted by the media as "proof" for a biological basis for homosexuality, have been contradicted by later, more thorough studies.
For the entire article. http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/genetics_of_homosexuality.html
And you can refuse to the read the material because of the link. That's up to you, but it doesn't make the research any less significant. And the website author referenced OTHER scientists research, but I suppose all them are not really scientists either. ::)
But for others who are not closed minded, this is a good article.
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Sherna, even if homosexuality was a choice, it still wouldn't be wrong.
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Sherna, even if homosexuality was a choice, it still wouldn't be wrong.
Listen, I think it is wrong. I think it goes against God and I think God who created mankind knows what is right and wrong. However, I don't hold homosexuality as some HORRIBLE sin. It is a sin like any other. I sin, I can't judge a person. I can say the sin is wrong but that doesn't make them a bad person.
I am no better in my sin than a homosexual is in theirs. So, in personally knowing gay people, I know they love their partners and in my limited human reasoning I can sympathize with their position. But I'm not God, I don't have a right to contradict him just because on the outside it may seem perfectly harmless. God knows best, he said it's wrong.
I know you don't believe in God, so none of this is meant to convince you, but only to show where I am coming from as an individual.
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I'm interested in this as well. I have found on other forums and talking to some Christian friends that it is considered sin because it's an abomination. Because men with men isn't how God intended us to be. He intended man with woman.
As far as theories why... Population cannot grow. Your butt can't get pregnant.
Waaaayyyyy back in the day, Catholics needed their numbers to grow. Therefore they came up with the idea that birth control was evil. Same concept with homosexuality. If you can't breed, population can't grow. if population doesn't grow tithes stop coming in.
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homosexuality falls into a totally different category.
Right, because people "choose" to want to be discriminated against. ::)
Scientists have already theorized that it may be conditions in the womb that cause people to turn out gay. When science has clear evidence that the origin of homosexuality is birth, what will your religion say then?
I'll see it in my lifetime, I'm sure! :thumbsup:
Just because you don't think homosexuality is a choice doesn't mean it isn't, we are going to have to agree to disagree on that.
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Sherna, even if homosexuality was a choice, it still wouldn't be wrong.
That's your opinion, but it's obvious from previous threads you and Sherna have a very different belief system...
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I have a question and I was wondering if someone who knows the Bible inside and out could answer it for me:
Why are there religious groups that say "God hates fags"? If God created humans and didn't want any of them to be gay why did he make some of them gay? And if you believe that homosexuality is a choice why did he give humans the ability to choose to be gay?
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Secondly, how did he NOT make people retarted, mentally ill, blind, deaf, or deformed?
Warning bells and flashing lights are going off all over the place right now! By saying this, there is a very strong implication that he would then be able to micromanage every single human behaviour, including the 'free will' argument. That implies he has control over all things relative to human behaviour and fetal development that are the cause of what you have mentioned above and that is NO small order! Just to list a few he would/could control and thus be able to change and/or prevent:
*Control over binge or alcoholic drinking and drug use - known to cause DNA mutations, can lead to many cancers and other diseases in the unborn and in teens/adults
*Control over automatically providing all required amounts of necessary nutrition passed from mother to fetus [he could have simply 'built' this into us] and making pregnant mothers take care of themselves - naming a couple most everyone is familiar with: lack of vitamin D and folic acid during gestation is a known contributor to and/or cause of multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile diabetes, certain cancers
*Control over chromosomal translocations - a definite cause and effect in limb deformities of many types, heart anomalies, cranial disfigurements such as cleft palates, incorrect development of brain synapses resulting in blindness, deafness, deficits in adaptive behaviors and significantly impaired cognitive functioning ie mental retardation, mongolism, cretinism, and many more
Does anyone else see a flaw in the statement I quoted?
edited to add: And why would these things which are the root of so much suffering, not just on the part of the one afflicted, not be stopped from happening if god is of the purest love?
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I have a question and I was wondering if someone who knows the Bible inside and out could answer it for me:
Why are there religious groups that say "God hates fags"? If God created humans and didn't want any of them to be gay why did he make some of them gay? And if you believe that homosexuality is a choice why did he give humans the ability to choose to be gay?
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Secondly, how did he NOT make people retarted, mentally ill, blind, deaf, or deformed?
Warning bells and flashing lights are going off all over the place right now! By saying this, there is a very strong implication that he would then be able to micromanage every single human behaviour, including the 'free will' argument. That implies he has control over all things relative to human behaviour and fetal development that are the cause of what you have mentioned above and that is NO small order! Just to list a few he would/could control and thus be able to change and/or prevent:
*Control over binge or alcoholic drinking and drug use - known to cause DNA mutations, can lead to many cancers and other diseases in the unborn and in teens/adults
*Control over automatically providing all required amounts of necessary nutrition passed from mother to fetus [he could have simply 'built' this into us] and making pregnant mothers take care of themselves - naming a couple most everyone is familiar with: lack of vitamin D and folic acid during gestation is a known contributor to and/or cause of multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile diabetes, certain cancers
*Control over chromosomal translocations - a definite cause and effect in limb deformities of many types, heart anomalies, cranial disfigurements such as cleft palates, incorrect development of brain synapses resulting in blindness, deafness, deficits in adaptive behaviors and significantly impaired cognitive functioning ie mental retardation, mongolism, cretinism, and many more
Does anyone else see a flaw in the statement I quoted?
edited to add: And why would these things which are the root of so much suffering, not just on the part of the one afflicted, not be stopped from happening if god is of the purest love?
How is that the same argument as free will...free will requires a choice. No one chooses to be genetically different? I just happen to believe that being gay is not a genetic thing.
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Secondly, how did he NOT make people retarted, mentally ill, blind, deaf, or deformed?
Warning bells and flashing lights are going off all over the place right now! By saying this, there is a very strong implication that he would then be able to micromanage every single human behaviour, including the 'free will' argument. That implies he has control over all things relative to human behaviour and fetal development that are the cause of what you have mentioned above and that is NO small order! Just to list a few he would/could control and thus be able to change and/or prevent:
*Control over binge or alcoholic drinking and drug use - known to cause DNA mutations, can lead to many cancers and other diseases in the unborn and in teens/adults
*Control over automatically providing all required amounts of necessary nutrition passed from mother to fetus [he could have simply 'built' this into us] and making pregnant mothers take care of themselves - naming a couple most everyone is familiar with: lack of vitamin D and folic acid during gestation is a known contributor to and/or cause of multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile diabetes, certain cancers
*Control over chromosomal translocations - a definite cause and effect in limb deformities of many types, heart anomalies, cranial disfigurements such as cleft palates, incorrect development of brain synapses resulting in blindness, deafness, deficits in adaptive behaviors and significantly impaired cognitive functioning ie mental retardation, mongolism, cretinism, and many more
Does anyone else see a flaw in the statement I quoted?
edited to add: And why would these things which are the root of so much suffering, not just on the part of the one afflicted, not be stopped from happening if god is of the purest love?
How is that the same argument as free will...free will requires a choice. No one chooses to be genetically different? I just happen to believe that being gay is not a genetic thing.
Mackenzie, your right. Being gay is not genetic. It's a lifestyle choice. I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.
Being gay is a chosen sin (Biblically), that's why we as Christians are against it. Isn't it funny how everything actually comes down to either a belief in God's Word or not? Even if you don't believe the Bible, doesn't the gay lifestyle go against the natural order of things? Things that we never would have accepted just 20 years ago are being shoved down our throat with "you will accept this or else"! I preach against homosexuality, because of what I read in the pages of God's Word. I can't say it's okay, when the Word of God says the opposite. I've been told I could be arrested for preaching this and put in prison......so be it! No way will I call evil good and good evil.......never!
We have many "saved" former gays in our assembly. Some have AIDS. A very talented Music Director comes to mind as I write this. God has actually healed some from AIDS, as they turned around their life, and dedicated it to God. Two of my dearest friends are former gays. They, and everyone that came out of that lifestyle told me they "chose' it. Some even confess of "inhabiting" spirits.
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Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion. My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.
As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).
My take on it is this: I am heterosexual. I am attracted to males (one in particular). I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever. It comes naturally to me, and I understand this. Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.
Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them). Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one? If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them? How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?
Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.
That's just my opinion.
*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone. I am not referring to any specific person. This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts. :notworthy:
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How is that the same argument as free will...free will requires a choice. No one chooses to be genetically different? I just happen to believe that being gay is not a genetic thing.
Wow, did you even read my post?! I included the words/concept of 'free will', but the focus was on your statement that god makes people this way. I said:"there is a very strong implication that he would then be able to micromanage every single human behaviour, including the 'free will' argument.
I gave you fairly precise examples of how a human's [supposed] 'free will' could be taken away and our behaviours changed in order to prevent all the things you said he caused. I am astounded right now....
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Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion. My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.
As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).
My take on it is this: I am heterosexual. I am attracted to males (one in particular). I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever. It comes naturally to me, and I understand this. Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.
Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them). Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one? If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them? How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?
Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.
That's just my opinion.
*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone. I am not referring to any specific person. This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts. :notworthy:
Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.
You state you don't believe in the Bible. Herein lies the difference....some do. You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do. Everyones choice.
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Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.
You state you don't believe in the Bible. Herein lies the difference....some do. You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do. Everyones choice.
Exactly. Which is why I stated it was my opinion, and not the ONLY answer. :heart:
I respect another person's right to believe it is wrong, while explaining why I believe it is not wrong.
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Mackenzie, your right. Being gay is not genetic. It's a lifestyle choice. I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.
That and every word below it, I won't even quote the rest of it, make me physically ill. Being gay is EVIL?! I can't imagine how many people you have offended. Please do not ever call yourself a loving christian again, NOT with those words behind it - I will never forget I saw that post. You have, in less than 100 words, made YOURSELF the embodiment and a part of every christian concept and belief that is abhorrent. At least we know your true feelings now though.
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Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.
You state you don't believe in the Bible. Herein lies the difference....some do. You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do. Everyones choice.
Exactly. Which is why I stated it was my opinion, and not the ONLY answer. :heart:
I respect another person's right to believe it is wrong, while explaining why I believe it is not wrong.
Gotcha....back at ya :heart:
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Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion. My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.
As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).
My take on it is this: I am heterosexual. I am attracted to males (one in particular). I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever. It comes naturally to me, and I understand this. Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.
Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them). Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one? If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them? How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?
Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.
That's just my opinion.
*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone. I am not referring to any specific person. This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts. :notworthy:
Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.
You state you don't believe in the Bible. Herein lies the difference....some do. You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do. Everyones choice.
really???
If we are to take our que from the example that Christians have set for the last 500+ years on this continent, then anyone who does not believe as you do, and can not force you to adopt there beliefs, they have every right, judging by Christian example, to try every thing in their power to make you extinct.
Now do I subscribe to this airheadedness? Absolutely not, Creator made the earth,all of it, for us all, not just Christians, so why not keep all this intolerance for people with different beliefs then you, to your freakin self.
No, noone, should move to another country. Thats just your superior mindset talking. If that was the standard to be adheared to, then all your asses need to get back to rome or where ever your screwed up morals came from, after all, we had it pretty smooth till your predecessors showed up and started trying to shove your ideology down our throats. WE WERE HERE FIRST, its obvious you understand the concept of "my way, or the highway"!!!!!
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How is that the same argument as free will...free will requires a choice. No one chooses to be genetically different? I just happen to believe that being gay is not a genetic thing.
Wow, did you even read my post?! I included the words/concept of 'free will', but the focus was on your statement that god makes people this way. I said:"there is a very strong implication that he would then be able to micromanage every single human behaviour, including the 'free will' argument.
I gave you fairly precise examples of how a human's [supposed] 'free will' could be taken away and our behaviours changed in order to prevent all the things you said he caused. I am astounded right now....
Actually I was just asking Marie how she could fathom that God doesn't make retarded, blind, deaf, people...She claims to believe in God but then said he doesn't create them...God creates ALL of us, so I didn't understand her point. He created every single one of us the way we are, at birth. However, that doesn't mean we didn't make choices along the way that change how we turn out. Someone who is born blind didn't make a choice that made them enter the world blind. Someone who decided to pursue someone of the same sex rather than someone of the different sex chose that. I was only addressing the way we are BORN. The immediate things that are apparent at birth. God gave me ten toes, ten fingers, two ears, vision...etc. Others are not born that way, Marie made it sound as if they then were not a work of God and I was addressing her on that...If I am still astounding you and not answering what you want me to answer let me know.
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Mackenzie, your right. Being gay is not genetic. It's a lifestyle choice. I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.
That and every word below it, I won't even quote the rest of it, make me physically ill. Being gay is EVIL?! I can't imagine how many people you have offended. Please do not ever call yourself a loving christian again, NOT with those words behind it - I will never forget I saw that post. You have, in less than 100 words, made YOURSELF the embodiment and a part of every christian concept and belief that is abhorrent. At least we know your true feelings now though.
Sin is evil....no matter what it is. lying, cheating, killing, is sin and the Bible calls sin evil. I won't soft pedal anything that is sin.....period. It's not my intent to offend anybody that's gay, but the Word of God calls it sin, and an abomination. I can do no less, as one day I will have to give account to my God what I believed and taught others. I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and will always uphold it. When Jesus walked the earth, he didn't mince any words about sin. Neither will I. I don't want to blur the lines about what I believe. I don't "shun" gays, but will not accept the lifestyle as common or normal. I will always vote against it, preach against it, etc. Disagreeing and loving a person are 2 different things.
I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
I've been quite clear what I've believed in the past. This is not new. Amyrouse and I had a very in depth Biblical discussion about this very thing on one of the past threads. My stand is nothing new. You saw a chance to jump on my character by twisting my words. You didn't quote ALL my post. There was more to what I wrote, but you only took a part of it, and decided to skewer me with it.
I stand by ALL my post, and this one too.
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Mackenzie, your right. Being gay is not genetic. It's a lifestyle choice. I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.
That and every word below it, I won't even quote the rest of it, make me physically ill. Being gay is EVIL?! I can't imagine how many people you have offended. Please do not ever call yourself a loving christian again, NOT with those words behind it - I will never forget I saw that post. You have, in less than 100 words, made YOURSELF the embodiment and a part of every christian concept and belief that is abhorrent. At least we know your true feelings now though.
Sin is evil....no matter what it is. lying, cheating, killing, is sin and the Bible calls sin evil. I won't soft pedal anything that is sin.....period. It's not my intent to offend anybody that's gay, but the Word of God calls it sin, and an abomination. I can do no less, as one day I will have to give account to my God what I believed and taught others. I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and will always uphold it. When Jesus walked the earth, he didn't mince any words about sin. Neither will I. I don't want to blur the lines about what I believe. I don't "shun" gays, but will not accept the lifestyle as common or normal. I will always vote against it, preach against it, etc. Disagreeing and loving a person are 2 different things.
I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
I've been quite clear what I've believed in the past. This is not new. Amyrouse and I had a very in depth Biblical discussion about this very thing on one of the past threads. My stand is nothing new. You saw a chance to jump on my character by twisting my words. You didn't quote ALL my post. There was more to what I wrote, but you only took a part of it, and decided to skewer me with it.
I stand by ALL my post, and this one too.
Oh, bull. I don't need to quote the rest of what you said because it does NOT make any difference, period. I stand by what I said and I have never seen you say to Amy what you did in this thread, if you in fact did, I missed it. Believe me, IF I had seen it, I would have commented on it then also. I didn't quote part to 'skewer' you, get over yourself. I did not twist your words. And I didn't know you were the all knowing authority on gays. I guess I am wasting my time using medicine to try and alleviate suffering in AIDS patients. You can actually 'heal' them. Maybe I should NOT walk out the door after this post and go to work - I'll just tell the ones on my ward to come and see you.
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Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion. My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.
As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).
My take on it is this: I am heterosexual. I am attracted to males (one in particular). I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever. It comes naturally to me, and I understand this. Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.
Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them). Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one? If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them? How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?
Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.
That's just my opinion.
*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone. I am not referring to any specific person. This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts. :notworthy:
Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.
You state you don't believe in the Bible. Herein lies the difference....some do. You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do. Everyones choice.
really???
If we are to take our que from the example that Christians have set for the last 500+ years on this continent, then anyone who does not believe as you do, and can not force you to adopt there beliefs, they have every right, judging by Christian example, to try every thing in their power to make you extinct.
Now do I subscribe to this airheadedness? Absolutely not, Creator made the earth,all of it, for us all, not just Christians, so why not keep all this intolerance for people with different beliefs then you, to your freakin self.
No, noone, should move to another country. Thats just your superior mindset talking. If that was the standard to be adheared to, then all your asses need to get back to rome or where ever your screwed up morals came from, after all, we had it pretty smooth till your predecessors showed up and started trying to shove your ideology down our throats. WE WERE HERE FIRST, its obvious you understand the concept of "my way, or the highway"!!!!!
Okay, I said I wasn't going to post to you anymore, but here it is AGAIN.....One more time!
Rome=Catholism....of which I'm not for the umpteenth time. I have every right as anyone else on this forum to post what I believe or not. You certainly do.
You didn't like my saying if you don't like the religious freedom you or others have here, then move to a country where they have none, or change places with a believer who lived in one, and would love anything to live in the US and enjoy the freedom of religion we have? Where they have to hide underground to worship God, and can't do so openly? It's got nothing to do with a superior mindset. I'm talking about the freedoms we take for granted and trample under our feet, thinking nothing about it.
Can you really infer the word "Intolerant" to me........or yourself?
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Since I don't believe in the accuracy of any religious works written by man, I don't follow any true form of religion. My view is that if you try your best to be a good person (I am an ardent supporter of the "do unto others" rule), then you've done enough.
As such, I don't agree with many religious based viewpoints (such as homosexuality or evolution).
My take on it is this: I am heterosexual. I am attracted to males (one in particular). I have no urge (mentally, emotionally, physically) to be attracted to females whatsoever. It comes naturally to me, and I understand this. Further, other people that know this about me understand and accept it; they don't accuse me of choosing it, and it's not considered wrong.
Why then, would someone who is homosexual not be following the same basic rules (I.E. it comes naturally to them). Why is it not accepted that they simply are attracted to their own gender, instead of a different one? If you are not homosexual, how can you say you KNOW that it does not come naturally to them? How can you say you KNOW they are choosing it of their own free will, rather than be affected naturally like any heterosexual would?
Since I am heterosexual and cannot change it or control it, I will not ask a homosexual to change or control it.
That's just my opinion.
*note: when I say "you", I mean anyone. I am not referring to any specific person. This is an excellent debate, with many well-thought out posts. :notworthy:
Yes, it comes down to what we believe, like I stated in my last post.
You state you don't believe in the Bible. Herein lies the difference....some do. You mentioned you don't agree with any religious viewpoints such as homosexuality or evolution.....that's your choice......some do. Everyones choice.
really???
If we are to take our que from the example that Christians have set for the last 500+ years on this continent, then anyone who does not believe as you do, and can not force you to adopt there beliefs, they have every right, judging by Christian example, to try every thing in their power to make you extinct.
Now do I subscribe to this airheadedness? Absolutely not, Creator made the earth,all of it, for us all, not just Christians, so why not keep all this intolerance for people with different beliefs then you, to your freakin self.
No, noone, should move to another country. Thats just your superior mindset talking. If that was the standard to be adheared to, then all your asses need to get back to rome or where ever your screwed up morals came from, after all, we had it pretty smooth till your predecessors showed up and started trying to shove your ideology down our throats. WE WERE HERE FIRST, its obvious you understand the concept of "my way, or the highway"!!!!!
Okay, I said I wasn't going to post to you anymore, but here it is AGAIN.....One more time!
Rome=Catholism....of which I'm not for the umpteenth time. I have every right as anyone else on this forum to post what I believe or not. You certainly do.
You didn't like my saying if you don't like the religious freedom you or others have here, then move to a country where they have none, or change places with a believer who lived in one, and would love anything to live in the US and enjoy the freedom of religion we have? Where they have to hide underground to worship God, and can't do so openly? It's got nothing to do with a superior mindset. I'm talking about the freedoms we take for granted and trample under our feet, thinking nothing about it.
Can you really infer the word "Intolerant" to me........or yourself?
Religious freedom???? are you seriously that ignorant of fact??? or do you agree with the fact that many many of the original inhabitants of this land are prohibited by federal statutes from possesing some of our spiritual items or in fact participating in some of our traditional spiritual ceremonies???
Yes you......intolerant of others right to any lifestyle they desire, as long as they are not victimizing others by practicing it.
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Mackenzie, your right. Being gay is not genetic. It's a lifestyle choice. I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.
That and every word below it, I won't even quote the rest of it, make me physically ill. Being gay is EVIL?! I can't imagine how many people you have offended. Please do not ever call yourself a loving christian again, NOT with those words behind it - I will never forget I saw that post. You have, in less than 100 words, made YOURSELF the embodiment and a part of every christian concept and belief that is abhorrent. At least we know your true feelings now though.
Sin is evil....no matter what it is. lying, cheating, killing, is sin and the Bible calls sin evil. I won't soft pedal anything that is sin.....period. It's not my intent to offend anybody that's gay, but the Word of God calls it sin, and an abomination. I can do no less, as one day I will have to give account to my God what I believed and taught others. I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and will always uphold it. When Jesus walked the earth, he didn't mince any words about sin. Neither will I. I don't want to blur the lines about what I believe. I don't "shun" gays, but will not accept the lifestyle as common or normal. I will always vote against it, preach against it, etc. Disagreeing and loving a person are 2 different things.
I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
I've been quite clear what I've believed in the past. This is not new. Amyrouse and I had a very in depth Biblical discussion about this very thing on one of the past threads. My stand is nothing new. You saw a chance to jump on my character by twisting my words. You didn't quote ALL my post. There was more to what I wrote, but you only took a part of it, and decided to skewer me with it.
I stand by ALL my post, and this one too.
Oh, bull. I don't need to quote the rest of what you said because it does NOT make any difference, period. I stand by what I said and I have never seen you say to Amy what you did in this thread, if you in fact did, I missed it. Believe me, IF I had seen it, I would have commented on it then also. I didn't quote part to 'skewer' you, get over yourself. I did not twist your words. And I didn't know you were the all knowing authority on gays. I guess I am wasting my time using medicine to try and alleviate suffering in AIDS patients. You can actually 'heal' them. Maybe I should NOT walk out the door after this post and go to work - I'll just tell the ones on my ward to come and see you.
Your talking apples and oranges here, and make no sense. I think you need to get over yourself. Since when did I make any inference to your work with gays? You most definitely twisted my words, and still are.
I live my life by the Word of God. Period. Regardless of difference of opinion by anybody. If you do not, then we are in disagreement.....simple as that. That's what is really bothering you isn't it? The fact that I'm straight forward about my beliefs, and how I line them up with the Word of God. Get over it, it's not changing....not on this side anyhow.
As far as the thread with me and Amy, you were posting in that thread yourself, so you had to have read what was being said, and my in depth postings on the subject. What you did not like is me calling it a sin just like any other sin. People don't like their sins exposed. However, when they are exposed and realized, then the forgiveness and healing can begin.
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I'll sum up this whole thing from the circles I see this thread going in----
Religion- Being gay is a sin. God said so but never personally told me or anyone I know. I read the rules from an old book. We were meant to spread our seed and populate the earth. It's gross. It's a lifestyle despite me not knowing many gays personally.
Free thinker- Being gay is abnormal, but it's not a bad thing. It is part of the natural world and seen throughout vast amounts of species. It is estimated that 5% of humans are gay and that statistic has remained around that throughout history. The sexual acts have potential of spreading disease but it is hilariously naive to say that it is only seen in the gay population. Overpopulation is already a major problem throughout the world and having same-sex couples not having kids or adopting them is a good way to mildly help population control. Anyone who has any close gay friends usually know that it was never their friends choice to be attracted to the same sex. Most noticed the attraction when they hit purberty.
My opinion? Hot lesbian sex + religious man thinking homosexuality is bad = gay hypocrite.
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I am probably as spiritual, if not more so, then anyone on this board, and according to my beliefs, homosexuality is no sin, and in fact, "two spirits' are greatly honored and admired.
This is due to our belief that they have a closer aamd stronger connection to our spiritual realm.
Intolerant people, who look down their noses at anyone who doesnt have identical spiritual beliefs as they do are simply superioristic self absorbed egotistical assholes.
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There's a big difference in disagreeing with a lifestyle and condemning it. I don't agree with gays, doesn't mean if I see them in the street I'm going to discriminate against them or treat them differently at all. I think that's the point Annella is trying to make. Believing it is wrong is totally different than showing hate instead of love.
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I'm just seeing people taking things in the wrong tone.
Annella is strong worded but she really hasn't said anything different than me or any other Christian who posted about this topic. If that means we are all a-holes, I guess you are entitled to think that walks. :sad1:
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There's a big difference in disagreeing with a lifestyle and condemning it. I don't agree with gays, doesn't mean if I see them in the street I'm going to discriminate against them or treat them differently at all. I think that's the point Annella is trying to make. Believing it is wrong is totally different than showing hate instead of love.
GHEEEZ.... are you really going to make me agree with you?
OK....***deep breath..........exhale*** you are right. If you think it is wrong, then you shouldnt do it, however, this brings great turmoil to those who have been trained to believing it is wrong but have these tendencies, none the less. However, none of us has any right dictating to anyone else what to believe or how to live our lives as long as we are not hurting others in the process.
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Okay, I said I wasn't going to post to you anymore, but here it is AGAIN.....One more time!
Rome=Catholism....of which I'm not for the umpteenth time. I have every right as anyone else on this forum to post what I believe or not. You certainly do.
You didn't like my saying if you don't like the religious freedom you or others have here, then move to a country where they have none, or change places with a believer who lived in one, and would love anything to live in the US and enjoy the freedom of religion we have? Where they have to hide underground to worship God, and can't do so openly? It's got nothing to do with a superior mindset. I'm talking about the freedoms we take for granted and trample under our feet, thinking nothing about it.
If it goes against the Word of God....I'm against it also. Disagreeing with what is Biblical sin in any lifestyle, whether it be lying, stealing, incest, homosexuality, etc., is not intolerant. It's sin and disagreeable to me because it goes against the Word of God. That does not make me intolerant. Your making me sound like I hate gays, and that is not true. This has been hassled through on so many other threads, and the argument is getting old. I love everybody, but disagree with sin. I won't sugar coat it or waffle on it. It's an iron clad belief.
Religious freedom???? are you seriously that ignorant of fact??? or do you agree with the fact that many many of the original inhabitants of this land are prohibited by federal statutes from possesing some of our spiritual items or in fact participating in some of our traditional spiritual ceremonies???
Here we go ::)
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Whenever it gets to the name calling stage, that's when you don't have anything intelligent to add or post.
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I'm just seeing people taking things in the wrong tone.
Annella is strong worded but she really hasn't said anything different than me or any other Christian who posted about this topic. If that means we are all a-holes, I guess you are entitled to think that walks. :sad1:
Ok Mrs. Shernajwine, point taken. I am no great speaker and am very often mis-understood, so I accept that there is the possibility that I may mis understand her.
As for you......naaaa, you are pretty transparent as far as I can see and although I have seen you get your feathers ruffed on occasion, as we all do, for the most part you are very understandable.
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Well I appreciate that you don't think that of me :heart:
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Whenever it gets to the name calling stage, that's when you don't have anything intelligent to add or post.
What a *bleep* cop out, speaking of a loss for words that wont makes us look unfavorable......who has called anyone any names?
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Well I appreciate that you don't think that of me :heart:
No actually I dont. Of course there are some things we dont agree on but so what? I have yet to see you trying to force your beliefs on anyone else. I have seen you attempt( very successfully) to illustrate your beliefs tho and actually I think that is admirable.
I am intrigued by you as a matter of fact.......I have always heard of this tolerant loving ETC Christian, but until you came here, it was like the unicorn.....I had never seen one.
I have given this some thought and have decided, that if all Christians we as tolerant of others as you, Christianity could live up to some of the hype that most adherents subscribe to it, and maybe we could have a world of diversity as well as tolerance for others......have you ever considered pursuing a position within the clergy?
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Whenever it gets to the name calling stage, that's when you don't have anything intelligent to add or post.
What a *bleep* cop out, speaking of a loss for words that wont makes us look unfavorable......who has called anyone any names?
I'm out....but not down by any means. Do you actually don't know what you said ???
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Well I appreciate that you don't think that of me :heart:
No actually I dont. Of course there are some things we dont agree on but so what? I have yet to see you trying to force your beliefs on anyone else. I have seen you attempt( very successfully) to illustrate your beliefs tho and actually I think that is admirable.
I am intrigued by you as a matter of fact.......I have always heard of this tolerant loving ETC Christian, but until you came here, it was like the unicorn.....I had never seen one.
I have given this some thought and have decided, that if all Christians we as tolerant of others as you, Christianity could live up to some of the hype that most adherents subscribe to it, and maybe we could have a world of diversity as well as tolerance for others......have you ever considered pursuing a position within the clergy?
Walks, you flatter me too much. I have actually appalled myself at times for getting flustered and saying things (or typing I guess) in a manner that I'm not proud of. But I let my posts stand and deal with the repercussions.
Anyhow, I get really nervous with public speaking so I'm not nearly as effective at making a point to groups of people face to face. I do serve in my church ministries, but mostly I just try to let my life be an example of Christ in me. And be encouraged, there is a whole church full of people who believe how I believe and it's my church's sole reason for existing to get the message out purely through our own acts of love. Not street corner rallies, or public tv broadcasts, or door to door harassment. And my church is a branch of another church that is in Houston Texas, which is a branch of another church in another state (I can't remember specifically).
I'm only one of many many many people who believe and try to act according to that belief.
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Well I appreciate that you don't think that of me :heart:
No actually I dont. Of course there are some things we dont agree on but so what? I have yet to see you trying to force your beliefs on anyone else. I have seen you attempt( very successfully) to illustrate your beliefs tho and actually I think that is admirable.
I am intrigued by you as a matter of fact.......I have always heard of this tolerant loving ETC Christian, but until you came here, it was like the unicorn.....I had never seen one.
I have given this some thought and have decided, that if all Christians we as tolerant of others as you, Christianity could live up to some of the hype that most adherents subscribe to it, and maybe we could have a world of diversity as well as tolerance for others......have you ever considered pursuing a position within the clergy?
Walks, you flatter me too much. I have actually appalled myself at times for getting flustered and saying things (or typing I guess) in a manner that I'm not proud of. But I let my posts stand and deal with the repercussions.
Anyhow, I get really nervous with public speaking so I'm not nearly as effective at making a point to groups of people face to face. I do serve in my church ministries, but mostly I just try to let my life be an example of Christ in me. And be encouraged, there is a whole church full of people who believe how I believe and it's my church's sole reason for existing to get the message out purely through our own acts of love. Not street corner rallies, or public tv broadcasts, or door to door harassment. And my church is a branch of another church that is in Houston Texas, which is a branch of another church in another state (I can't remember specifically).
I'm only one of many many many people who believe and try to act according to that belief.
As I said earlier, our individual spiritualities do not agree on several key issues, however, considering what has been the status-quo of the institution of Christianity, with yours.....I am impressed.
No, you can't convert me, but, please, stay the course.
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No, you can't convert me.
LOL, I wouldn't dare!! ;D
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Whenever it gets to the name calling stage, that's when you don't have anything intelligent to add or post.
What a *bleep* cop out, speaking of a loss for words that wont makes us look unfavorable......who has called anyone any names?
I'm out....but not down by any means. Do you actually don't know what you said ???
Yes, I said "are you that ignorant of the fact" now I can and in fact will rephrase that to "are you that un-informed of the fact. However I know that wont make any difference to you and by default you have answered my question as to whether you support freedom of religion....but only for those who subscribe to your brand of religion.
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Someone who is born blind didn't make a choice that made them enter the world blind.
Ok...so...they were born that way...isn't it possible that people were born "other" ways, as well?
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I also have to say, though, that though there are misunderstandings and disagreements, that I do not see Annella in a negative light. She and I differ vastly on some of the things we believe, but I have always found her to be loving in her disagreements with me. We have come together through a debate to the other side still with :heart: and it is very difficult to find that these days with people of differing faiths. I see so many times people who say "...but I don't agree with your religion" without taking the time to really know what that religion entails, and from the start with me Annella asked questions of me about my faith in an effort to garner a better understanding of who I am. She may be more conservative in her faith than I, and her words may be viewed as harsh, and I may not agree with her, but I still have nothing but :heart:.
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Ok...so...they were born that way...isn't it possible that people were born "other" ways, as well
If by "other" you mean gay. Blindness, deafness, and any other abnormal birth defect is not a sin to God. Homosexuality is a lifestyle, these other things are handicaps and in some birth defect cases, doctors can fix or partially fix the defect so the person can live a more normal life. And I'm sure that gay people would not like having their lifestyle compared to a handicap or abnormality of the human body and condition!
Do I think it's abnormal? Yes but a choice they made to be that way. But for someone who thinks it isn't a choice, I think you may have implied something a little insulting the people you are trying to defend.
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Do I think it's abnormal? Yes but a choice they made to be that way. But for someone who thinks it isn't a choice, I think you may have implied something a little insulting the people you are trying to defend.
It is abnormal- you got that right. But it's not a choice. This type of choice isn't like choosing between a coke and a pepsi. They are naturally attracted to certain individuals as they grow up and they cannot change that. Telling them they cannot be attracted since it's abnormal is going against what is natural. Abnormalities are part of nature. Ultimately both straight and gays have lifestyles so there is no difference to the definition of a lifestyle here.
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Ultimately both straight and gays have lifestyles so there is no difference to the definition of a lifestyle here.
You're right, but blindness is not a lifestyle and that was my point.
And if you look further up the thread I posted a link citing scientific research that says it's not a choice. OH WAIT, that site doesn't do real science. :bs:
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Someone who is born blind didn't make a choice that made them enter the world blind.
Ok...so...they were born that way...isn't it possible that people were born "other" ways, as well?
I believe homosexuality is a choice, not a trait you're born with.
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Do I think it's abnormal? Yes but a choice they made to be that way. But for someone who thinks it isn't a choice, I think you may have implied something a little insulting the people you are trying to defend.
It is abnormal- you got that right. But it's not a choice. This type of choice isn't like choosing between a coke and a pepsi. They are naturally attracted to certain individuals as they grow up and they cannot change that. Telling them they cannot be attracted since it's abnormal is going against what is natural. Abnormalities are part of nature. Ultimately both straight and gays have lifestyles so there is no difference to the definition of a lifestyle here.
Ultimately whether or not homosexuality is a choice or something people are born with is going to boil down to opinion, no matter what scientific evidence is posted on here they will be other scientific evidence supporting the opposing view as well...if it had been absolutely proven that it was or wasn't we wouldn't be sitting here having this debate. Straight and gay are both lifestyles, some of us just happen to disagree with the gay lifestyle. Doesn't mean we hate or condemn them, just disagree.
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Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?
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How long would the human race last if everyone was a catholic priest?
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Ok...so...they were born that way...isn't it possible that people were born "other" ways, as well
If by "other" you mean gay. Blindness, deafness, and any other abnormal birth defect is not a sin to God. Homosexuality is a lifestyle, these other things are handicaps and in some birth defect cases, doctors can fix or partially fix the defect so the person can live a more normal life. And I'm sure that gay people would not like having their lifestyle compared to a handicap or abnormality of the human body and condition!
Do I think it's abnormal? Yes but a choice they made to be that way. But for someone who thinks it isn't a choice, I think you may have implied something a little insulting the people you are trying to defend.
No...I'm just saying that it is possible for people to be born certain ways, so why is it so difficult to believe that someone could be born gay. G-d didn't intend for people to be born with any type of "abnormality". People who are born blind are not handicapped...they know nothing different from the way with which they were born. Sighted people do exist, but being sighted is not part of a blind person's life. I have three blind cousins...I speak from experience here. In fact, if someone were to imply to any of my three cousins that they were handicapped or could not do something without assistance, they would be highly offended, just as if someone were to imply they were abnormal. Why...cause they were born that way!
I don't view homosexuality as abnormal any more than I believe that blindness at birth is a handicap. I honestly believe people fall in love with people, not genitalia (that's just jewelry). Some people are just naturally inclined to be attracted to certain genitalia. My husband has this saying...he says now that he is with me and we are married that he is an amysexual, and anyone else wouldn't do it for him. Two of my best and oldest friends just got married after being together eleven years...and they are both anatomically female...and I believe wholeheartedly that they were born to love each other...just like my husband and I were born to love each other. To view a love that pure as abnormal or sinful is the true sin IMO.
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OH WAIT, that site doesn't do real science.
Oh it does. Just remember the name of the site though.
Straight and gay are both lifestyles, some of us just happen to disagree with the gay lifestyle. Doesn't mean we hate or condemn them, just disagree.
Agreed. Grant them the same rights. Is it genetic? Completely questionable. Is it a trait you're born with? Probably. Does growing up certain ways add to it? Sure. Given that, if the individual finds himself attracted to the same-sex, that is not a choice. It's natural. To grow and say "Hey! I'm going to choose to like men instead of women......right now! Puberty gooo!" that would be a choice but that's just fake reasoning. A homosexual can fight the attraction, but that's unnatural and I don't see that as a very fair choice-- and that's why I don't recognize it as a choice.
To view a love that pure as abnormal or sinful is the true sin IMO.
EXACTLY! Except there's nothing wrong with abnormalities like this. It's unique! And to hate a people for their love of one another is ultimately stupid.
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Someone who is born blind didn't make a choice that made them enter the world blind.
Ok...so...they were born that way...isn't it possible that people were born "other" ways, as well?
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I also have to say, though, that though there are misunderstandings and disagreements, that I do not see Annella in a negative light. She and I differ vastly on some of the things we believe, but I have always found her to be loving in her disagreements with me. We have come together through a debate to the other side still with :heart: and it is very difficult to find that these days with people of differing faiths. I see so many times people who say "...but I don't agree with your religion" without taking the time to really know what that religion entails, and from the start with me Annella asked questions of me about my faith in an effort to garner a better understanding of who I am. She may be more conservative in her faith than I, and her words may be viewed as harsh, and I may not agree with her, but I still have nothing but :heart:.
A little nap.......jet lag.
Thank you Amy :heart: You have never "slammed" me for anything. Yes, we have disagreed, but not to the point of calling names, or slinging accusations that are uncalled for.
I don't believe my words are harsh. They are clear and to the point. I stand up for what I believe in the Word of God. There is no waffling, and you will always know my stand. I don't appreciate being called names, but it doesn't sway what I believe. Doesn't hurt my feelings. I'm not here to convert, nor force my beliefs on anyone here like I've been accused. That's not my intention at all....and never has been. However, my opinion is just that.....my opinion. Argue away...or debate away.....whatever. However, if you don't believe the Bible, then what argument you have with me is moot.....as I wholeheartedly believe it.
If your angry at me because what I believe In the Bible, then your argument isn't with me either.....it's with the Bible itself and what it represents and teaches.
Do I believe in Freedom of Religion......Of course!!! However, if it's a "religion" that preaches hate and death/destruction of any people or race, or glory of the enemy...no. The world would be better off without any so called religion (IMHO). There are many churches that have many good hearted people, all trying to live for God, and live a good life. They have every right to do so. I live my life by the Bible, not a religion or following. A name on a church won't save anyone.
I'm not just conservative.....I'm VERY conservative. You don't have to agree with me, or I with you. These are the dictates of my heart, and always will be till the day I die, or God comes and gets me.
Everyone has their own belief system.....or lack thereof that you live by. We can agree to disagree...........
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Geez.....8 posts before mine....I'll never catch up!
Falconer02, who said anything about "hate" for the gays? Yours, and other posts have used the word hate, but no Christian on here (including me) said they hated gays. That's a misnomer you added into the mix. There's no gay bashing going on here.
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Homosexual behavior is contrary to nature? Explain this: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
Thinking about it in a different light, since this post
Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?
How long is the human race going to last with all this reproducin' heteros are doing all over the place? Purely speculation here...but, (A) sex is pleasurable and (B) even animals have sex for pleasure alone, then wouldn't it be logical to believe that maybe there is a purpose for homosexuality? If humankind keeps reproducing at current rates, then we are going to overpopulate ourselves worse than we are now...think of all the starving people not being able to lift their arms in the air because there just isn't any darn room to do so. Maybe nature knows something we don't...or something we just don't want to accept. Just a possibility here...
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Agreed. Grant them the same rights. Is it genetic? Completely questionable. Is it a trait you're born with? Probably. Does growing up certain ways add to it? Sure. Given that, if the individual finds himself attracted to the same-sex, that is not a choice. It's natural. To grow and say "Hey! I'm going to choose to like men instead of women......right now! Puberty gooo!" that would be a choice but that's just fake reasoning. A homosexual can fight the attraction, but that's unnatural and I don't see that as a very fair choice-- and that's why I don't recognize it as a choice.
See this is opinion...I respect that that's what you think, but it absolutely doesn't mean that I have to believe the same things. You can't prove it, therefore you can't convince me. When something cannot be proven we often base our perception of it on our moral beliefs, I happen to believe it is morally wrong and you do not. It happens. I can sit here and say BEING GAY IS A CHOICE over and over and it's not going to make you believe it, just as you can sit here and say THEY'RE BORN THAT WAY and I will not believe it. Neither of us can prove it in any way, so it's based on opinion and our belief system.
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Homosexual behavior is contrary to nature? Explain this: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
Thinking about it in a different light, since this post
Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?
How long is the human race going to last with all this reproducin' heteros are doing all over the place? Purely speculation here...but, (A) sex is pleasurable and (B) even animals have sex for pleasure alone, then wouldn't it be logical to believe that maybe there is a purpose for homosexuality? If humankind keeps reproducing at current rates, then we are going to overpopulate ourselves worse than we are now...think of all the starving people not being able to lift their arms in the air because there just isn't any darn room to do so. Maybe nature knows something we don't...or something we just don't want to accept. Just a possibility here...
So now we're like the animals? Or should say well, the animals are doing it, it must be okay for us to also? :BangHead:
While I understand some on here look to scientific research as their God (don't take offense Amy), it's marred in so many areas. We've had countless threads on this.
Animals are living in the same world as we. A sinful state of man that dates back to Adam and Eve. God cursed many things. NOTHING is "good" like when He first made it. After the fall of man, everything that was set in motion, sun, moon, seedtime, harvest, etc., have remained the same. Other things did not. They were cursed from that fateful day, including man. Other things got perverted along the way because of man's continuing sinning, Idol worship, and changing the natural order of things. Creation is finite, and was begun with a fine balance. Everything God made was good. Man corrupted it, and still is. Some insects and animals have no definitive parts of male or female, or have both. They could not be gay if they wanted. Maybe something God gave them to make sure a fragile species doesn't go extinct or something. I really don't know. I know worms are both sexes. However, God made man Male and Female.
I read somewhere that some species can change their sex if the only other partner available was their own sex. They can change their sex from male to female, or visa versa, for procreation.
There is scripture noting sexual confusion between men and animals (Bible). There were very strict laws laid down in the Old Testament that seem silly until you study them out, and realize that God was actually protecting us AND His creation of animals from harm. Remember, there was no reason for these laws before the sin of man. Man took God's perfection and perverted it....with the help of the enemy. Man's sin did more than just separate us from God. Of course you need to believe the Bible to see this......sigh
I will be looking further into this to garner more information......to be continued.
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Homosexual behavior is contrary to nature? Explain this: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
Thinking about it in a different light, since this post
Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?
How long is the human race going to last with all this reproducin' heteros are doing all over the place? Purely speculation here...but, (A) sex is pleasurable and (B) even animals have sex for pleasure alone, then wouldn't it be logical to believe that maybe there is a purpose for homosexuality? If humankind keeps reproducing at current rates, then we are going to overpopulate ourselves worse than we are now...think of all the starving people not being able to lift their arms in the air because there just isn't any darn room to do so. Maybe nature knows something we don't...or something we just don't want to accept. Just a possibility here...
So now we're like the animals? Or should say well, the animals are doing it, it must be okay for us to also? :BangHead:
While I understand some on here look to scientific research as their God (don't take offense Amy), it's marred in so many areas. We've had countless threads on this.
Animals are living in the same world as we. A sinful state of man that dates back to Adam and Eve. God cursed many things. NOTHING is "good" like when He first made it. After the fall of man, everything that was set in motion, sun, moon, seedtime, harvest, etc., have remained the same. Other things did not. They were cursed from that fateful day, including man. Other things got perverted along the way because of man's continuing sinning, Idol worship, and changing the natural order of things. Creation is finite, and was begun with a fine balance. Everything God made was good. Man corrupted it, and still is. Some insects and animals have no definitive parts of male or female, or have both. They could not be gay if they wanted. Maybe something God gave them to make sure a fragile species doesn't go extinct or something. I really don't know. I know worms are both sexes. However, God made man Male and Female.
I read somewhere that some species can change their sex if the only other partner available was their own sex. They can change their sex from male to female, or visa versa, for procreation.
There is scripture noting sexual confusion between men and animals (Bible). There were very strict laws laid down in the Old Testament that seem silly until you study them out, and realize that God was actually protecting us AND His creation of animals from harm. Remember, there was no reason for these laws before the sin of man. Man took God's perfection and perverted it....with the help of the enemy. Man's sin did more than just separate us from God. Of course you need to believe the Bible to see this......sigh
I will be looking further into this to garner more information......to be continued.
Awww...Annella...you know my views on religion and homosexuality. I'm just throwing more coals into the fire here. And, no offense taken. ;)
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Homosexual behavior is contrary to nature? Explain this: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
Thinking about it in a different light, since this post
Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?
How long is the human race going to last with all this reproducin' heteros are doing all over the place? Purely speculation here...but, (A) sex is pleasurable and (B) even animals have sex for pleasure alone, then wouldn't it be logical to believe that maybe there is a purpose for homosexuality? If humankind keeps reproducing at current rates, then we are going to overpopulate ourselves worse than we are now...think of all the starving people not being able to lift their arms in the air because there just isn't any darn room to do so. Maybe nature knows something we don't...or something we just don't want to accept. Just a possibility here...
So now we're like the animals? Or should say well, the animals are doing it, it must be okay for us to also? :BangHead:
While I understand some on here look to scientific research as their God (don't take offense Amy), it's marred in so many areas. We've had countless threads on this.
Animals are living in the same world as we. A sinful state of man that dates back to Adam and Eve. God cursed many things. NOTHING is "good" like when He first made it. After the fall of man, everything that was set in motion, sun, moon, seedtime, harvest, etc., have remained the same. Other things did not. They were cursed from that fateful day, including man. Other things got perverted along the way because of man's continuing sinning, Idol worship, and changing the natural order of things. Creation is finite, and was begun with a fine balance. Everything God made was good. Man corrupted it, and still is. Some insects and animals have no definitive parts of male or female, or have both. They could not be gay if they wanted. Maybe something God gave them to make sure a fragile species doesn't go extinct or something. I really don't know. I know worms are both sexes. However, God made man Male and Female.
I read somewhere that some species can change their sex if the only other partner available was their own sex. They can change their sex from male to female, or visa versa, for procreation.
There is scripture noting sexual confusion between men and animals (Bible). There were very strict laws laid down in the Old Testament that seem silly until you study them out, and realize that God was actually protecting us AND His creation of animals from harm. Remember, there was no reason for these laws before the sin of man. Man took God's perfection and perverted it....with the help of the enemy. Man's sin did more than just separate us from God. Of course you need to believe the Bible to see this......sigh
I will be looking further into this to garner more information......to be continued.
Awww...Annella...you know my views on religion and homosexuality. I'm just throwing more coals into the fire here. And, no offense taken. ;)
I'm tired and on Philippine's time. Jet lag is the worse part of my job. I'm leaving in another week, but for a somewhat closer gig (Canada), for a 2 week seminar. Hope I'm feeling better then. Takes me sometimes a lot longer time to recover from jet lag than most people, and don't know why. I'll be able to access FC from there for sure.
On a lighter note: I LOVE Jewish worship music. It's so hauntingly beautiful.
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On a lighter note: I LOVE Jewish worship music. It's so hauntingly beautiful.
I know, right? I absolutely love Mi Chamocha and Hashkiveinu...I actually sing Hashkiveinu to my daughter as a lullaby.
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On a lighter note: I LOVE Jewish worship music. It's so hauntingly beautiful.
I know, right? I absolutely love Mi Chamocha and Hashkiveinu...I actually sing Hashkiveinu to my daughter as a lullaby.
I have many DVD's of Jewish worship music.....some songs make me cry, and I don't even know what they are singing in Hebrew....lol
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Listen, I think it is wrong. I think it goes against God and I think God who created mankind knows what is right and wrong.
What is the true definition of "wrong" from a reasonable perspective? Something that causes nothing but undue harm to an individual or group. Being gay does not cause harm amongst consenting, safety-minded adults. Therefore, it is not wrong.
To say that two people can't be in a relationship and love each other -- THAT is wrong, because that causes harm.
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Being gay is not genetic. It's a lifestyle choice. I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.
Let's talk about hetereos for a second. Science has demonstrated that you actually don't have as much control over picking a partner than you think. You will automatically be less attracted to people who share DNA that is too similar to yours. This is something you can't help! Also, certain smells make men more attractive. If that isn't primal and animalistic, I don't know what is. ;)
As for being gay, no one has the right to speak on their behalf of whether it's a "choice" or not unless they themselves are gay. Common sense says you mostly can't help who you are attracted to, though. Surely as a hetero you have experience with that?!
Isn't it funny how everything actually comes down to either a belief in God's Word or not?
Uh, this is rather silly to say. When there are really only two directions an issue could take, why do you expect 3 or 4 positions when there are only 2? Not everything only has 2 positions, mind you.
Even if you don't believe the Bible, doesn't the gay lifestyle go against the natural order of things?
It is found across nature, so no. Homosexuality is a good thing for overpopulation.
They, and everyone that came out of that lifestyle told me they "chose' it. Some even confess of "inhabiting" spirits.
No kidding they're going to say this. Because they're brainwashed. I'd expect nothing less.
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I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it. But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there. Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity.
You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.
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Let me ask a question to those who think homosexuality isn't wrong. How long would the human race last if everyone was gay?
Come on now, that's not going to happen. Like Amy said, the almost guaranteed danger is that we're going to overpopulate ourselves to death. So it's a really silly argument.
I personally would not want to be with a talkative, emotional, weak-bodied woman...I need a MAN! lol No offense to my fellow woman...
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I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it. But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there. Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity.
You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.
The word prejudice is your word not mine. It has nothing to do with prejudice at all. It has to do with a lifestyle that goes against the moral teachings of the Bible, and the eroding away of the moral fiber of a Nation as a whole. Since you have made it clear you don't believe the Bible, this point is lost on you.
There's that word hate again, when that word came from your camp....not me. I do not hate gays, different races, murderers, etc. What I'm against is the act of sin. Also, a movement that is shoving their lifestyle down my throat in an effort to "make" everyone accept it as normal, when I know it is not, according to scriptures.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but lots of people voted No on 8. Me for one, and I'm not Mormon. There were literally thousands upon thousands of people, and there are not that many Mormons in the State of California who voted, so many others had to have voted "No" also. What your missing here is that it's just not Christians that do not want this. There are non-believers that don't want it either.
So you think funding won the vote? Please......... The prejudice/race/hate card has been used to death...get something else. Ashamed? Never in the Gospel and it's teachings.
Why is it necessary for you to spout unsavory titles towards Christians, when not one Christian on here has done that to you or anyone on this forum?
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I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it. But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there. Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity.
You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.
Wow, you dare to BOLD your words to people who do not approve of gays (but they are people that other people like as a person) and yet you BOLD your opinions to Christians for what we believe. That is really backward and prideful of you. :angry7:
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This is a really good topic!!! This is why I don't go to church.
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From Annella: Reply #189 on: September 24, 2010, 08:07:03 pm
Mackenzie, your right. Being gay is not genetic. It's a lifestyle choice. I'm sure though that science will try to prove otherwise.
Being gay is a chosen sin (Biblically), that's why we as Christians are against it. Isn't it funny how everything actually comes down to either a belief in God's Word or not? Even if you don't believe the Bible, doesn't the gay lifestyle go against the natural order of things? Things that we never would have accepted just 20 years ago are being shoved down our throat with "you will accept this or else"! I preach against homosexuality, because of what I read in the pages of God's Word. I can't say it's okay, when the Word of God says the opposite. I've been told I could be arrested for preaching this and put in prison......so be it! No way will I call evil good and good evil.......never!
We have many "saved" former gays in our assembly. Some have AIDS. A very talented Music Director comes to mind as I write this. God has actually healed some from AIDS, as they turned around their life, and dedicated it to God. Two of my dearest friends are former gays. They, and everyone that came out of that lifestyle told me they "chose' it. Some even confess of "inhabiting" spirits.
I have not gone back to insert ever single thing you replied back to me with. There are references to things in here that are NOT in the above quote, but you did say them to me. This thread has grown leaps and bounds and I am not going to get every single thing quoted here. If you want to say again that I am "twisting your words" because of that, so be it. Your words haven't gone anywhere and I don't twist them to begin with - I reply as to how I see and interpret what you say. So, here we go....
You stated I had seen your views/statements, as on here before this and the in depth dialogue with Amy about it. I went back and looked and found some posts from a thread on “Babies” in August. I made ONE post about birth control NOT being covered by insurance and then I STOPPED posting in it and never read the rest so I DID NOT see what you wrote then. As I said, IF I had seen it then, I would have addressed it then. You are making presumptions as to what I have and haven’t seen.
You believe and said you ‘know’ I am upset because you called it a sin. Firstly, you do NOT know what I am thinking, so do not presume [again] that you do. You may call it a sin or whatever you choose. I never said you were talking about MY work with AIDS/cancer patients. That is NOT what upsets me about this post. I would expect nothing less from a hardline christian like you than for you to say being gay is a sin/sinful because it goes against God’s Word.
You believe that people are not ‘born gay’. Fine - I won’t waste any time educating you on the infinite number of genetic anomalies that occur and are the cause of gender confusion, mutation, etc. You state you have many saved former gays in your assembly. To that I say NO, you do not. What you might have are some who at one time decided to experiment with it, were doing drugs or other lifestyle choices that put them in a different frame of mind or situation and they found themselves doing something they normally would not have. It could be a lot of other influencers or events. The bottom line is this: anyone who is actually gay, is NOT, under any circumstances going to become heterosexual. There IS NO SUCH THING as a used to be gay. So, they either WERE NOT gay or because of the misery put upon them by society they no longer could cope with saying they were gay, so they are now pretending they are not. A truly gay person, female or male, does not change that anymore than YOU waking up tomorrow and deciding YOU are now a lesbian.
You mentioned, “God has actually healed some from AIDS”. There is no healing/cure for AIDS! There are states of remission that may last for certain periods of time. This is especially true now with some of the newer anti-recombinant /anti-retroviral drugs, receptor antagonists, and regimens out there - thankfully more are being isolated and developed every day. Medically, there is NO comparison to being diagnosed as HIV+ today to what that meant even just 10 years ago. Ten years in medicine is a relatively short time and especially when talking about something that is now a worldwide pandemic - sooo much has changed. There is a HUGE difference between a positive carrier of HIV (human immunodeficiency virus) and actually having AIDS. So, these ‘healed’ people? They may have been positive for HIV, are taking the recommended course of treatment, and are still NOT to the point of full blown AIDS. It can now take some recently or newly diagnosed HIV infected many years to go into a diagnosis of AIDS and if they are able to get one of the newer treatments as soon as they are diagnosed, it raises their life expectancy to an average of around 30 years - that is dependent on them being extremely healthy, having an extremely strong immune system which is able to fight the virus much longer, and also having the financial resources available to even get treatment. Without medical treatment, even the healthiest individual will go into a diagnosis of AIDS in 10-15 years and death will occur relatively soon due to the body shutting down all organs necessary to our life systems one by one. All these statistics are based upon an absolutely ideal situation in all aspects of the person’s life and that rarely is the case. Did you see ‘life expectancy’ in there? There is NO cure.
If I were one of these gays in your church who was healed, I would owe it to every single person in my life to tell them about it! I can’t and won’t propose to get you to believe that prayer and your god cannot remove AIDS from anyone, but I know, in every bone in my body, that what you have stated as ‘proof’ is a pile of hogwash. Trust me, I deal with religious fervor from families and friends on a daily basis. If I know there is a strong religious ideology, you may find this hard to believe, I adamantly encourage them to pray and/or do whatever is within what they view as their’s and their god’s power to help. My lack of a faith in a god does not enter into it. I will say it is not what you all see on TV or in movies. It takes every ounce of strength I have to watch what my patients go through and especially the kids. I will also say that when religion gets in the way of our treating, there IS no leeway. On more than one occasion (after all the years as an N.P. it is probably thousands by now) we have all used the “WE will save their *bleep*, then YOU can save their soul!”
You say you speak out against homosexuality and are willing to go to prison if necessary. What then makes YOU any different than the Fred Phelps of this country and this world? He and others like him say they are doing it in the name of god and the bible and, unless I am mistaken, so do you? You may say you are not as fanatical as he/others are, but the bottom line is still the same - homosexual people are wrong in their lifestyle and are sinners. I would venture a guess that the large numbers of gays who overdose, infect others out of anger, become absolute sociopaths, and/or commit suicide because of all of your [collective] views have done the ultimate double whammy, eh? As I said, what you have written does appall me, but I am entitled to how I feel, just as you are.
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Jordandog FTW![/i] That post there's a fine peice o' work.
You can't prove it, therefore you can't convince me. When something cannot be proven we often base our perception of it on our moral beliefs, I happen to believe it is morally wrong and you do not. It happens. I can sit here and say BEING GAY IS A CHOICE over and over and it's not going to make you believe it, just as you can sit here and say THEY'RE BORN THAT WAY and I will not believe it. Neither of us can prove it in any way, so it's based on opinion and our belief system.
You don't really know any gay people, do you? This has nothing to do with moral beliefs. It's completely natural. That's all there is to it. You refer to it as a choice like choosing between coke or pepsi. Realistically it's like choosing to go eat or not. Eventually you're going to have to acknowledge the desire for it. Being gay and suppressing it due to societies religious taboo is an act of evil on religions part in itself. Suppressing nature and peoples unharmful tendencies with some ancient myths and an ever-changing moral cloud is completely rude and ignorant of their situation.
All and all, anyone can say it's odd and gross and all that, but when you protest it and make sure they are incapable of having the same rights as you do, that is the problem. They are as human as you are.
(http://www.stonewallpinellas.org/img/ShortTerm/WhichOne.jpg)
So now we're like the animals? Or should say well, the animals are doing it, it must be okay for us to also?
*sigh* Yes. We are animals. Always have been.
There were literally thousands upon thousands of people, and there are not that many Mormons in the State of California who voted, so many others had to have voted "No" also. What your missing here is that it's just not Christians that do not want this. There are non-believers that don't want it either.
I'm sure age had something to do with it too- not just religious beliefs.
(http://andrewnorton.info/files/2010/07/gayage.jpg)
http://andrewnorton.info/2010/07/26/sexual-attitudes-over-time-2-same-sex-relations/
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Religion is a subject of its own. We should not put these two together. Each has to answer for their own actions.
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Religion is a subject of its own. We should not put these two together. Each has to answer for their own actions.
Sounds true, but since it something that is discouraged in the Bible, that's why they are being bridged together here. It is definitely a very sensitive topic to tread carefully with. I don't approve of it, but I have several gay friends and they are just as nice as they can be - I really like them as friends, and as friends, many of them "...sticketh closer than a brother."
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Thank you, Falconer. And you are spot on with this also:
You don't really know any gay people, do you? This has nothing to do with moral beliefs. It's completely natural. That's all there is to it. You refer to it as a choice like choosing between coke or pepsi. Realistically it's like choosing to go eat or not. Eventually you're going to have to acknowledge the desire for it. Being gay and suppressing it due to societies religious taboo is an act of evil on religions part in itself. Suppressing nature and peoples unharmful tendencies with some ancient myths and an ever-changing moral cloud is completely rude and ignorant of their situation.
All and all, anyone can say it's odd and gross and all that, but when you protest it and make sure they are incapable of having the same rights as you do, that is the problem. They are as human as you are.
The argument I can already see coming is the one re 'moral beliefs' because the Bible will be used as proof again. It is suppressing nature, it is rude, and it is ignorant. Not only are they as human as we are, but they can die a death so horrible, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy - if I had one. I would love to have an answer as to why gays who do believe and who do accept the Bible (they are out there, contrary to what some might think the religious zealots have not driven them ALL from their faith), just aren't good enough to be 'cured'. How about the innocent babies born HIV+ from the get go? Talk about heartbreaking.
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You both err because you don't know the redeeming power of God. I've personally seen God heal all kinds of sicknesses (even Cancer) in my travels, and ministering in Revivals and different churches. You don't have to believe it, but every Doctor will tell you that people get healed, and they have documentation on it. The doctor has no explanation except a miracle took place. Look it up on the Net. Surely jordandog, being in the medical field, you have come across this?
When someone needs surgery to have a growth removed, and they are prayed for the night before, and the growth disappears.....what would you call that? When a deaf and dumb person (from birth) gets prayed for, and in a matter of 30 seconds hears and talks....what is that? Even though the phonics was way off....he talked. He repeated what we told him to say. When a Heroin addict comes for deliverance (we prayed for him), and they are delivered with no withdrawls, and no future cravings, what is that? When a gay person comes for deliverance from the gay lifestyle, and God delivers them, and heals the AIDS ravishing their body, so it disappears. Are they faking? After years?
I've seen healings with my own 2 eyes. I can't deny it. We do tell people! I've told you.....do you believe me or is it hogwash? Is it so hard to believe that the God that created our bodies, can also heal them? In Jesus day when he went around healing all manner of sickness, they said he was a fake, and was of the devil. They knew who He was and what He did.....but still crucified Him.
Would you believe if I gave you Pastors phone numbers to call. I'll even give you Pastors numbers that don't even know me in different states, and you can be sure I haven't talked to them. Would you believe them if they told you of Healings? I'm willing to do that for you so you can know and believe. I'll go through my Directory and pick them out at random. Better yet, I can give you numbers of our Colleges and you can speak to those who have PHD's, and are in our organization, and have seen healings themselves. I want you to believe, not to prove myself right.
let me clarify something here. I will stand by the Word of God, and defend it all the way, no matter what the issue is. I can't deny my Lord or His Word.....ever What is written in the Bible is True. Every word is ours. It tells us we can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Do you believe it? Thousands upon thousands have received this gift, but most religions will tell you that it was only for the Apostles, and not for us today. I got it at 19. It was a supernatural experience. People are still getting it.
I love you, and want you to believe. Please, there is no push to convert you. Just to give you some truthful information so you have the knowledge. After you make your inquiries, do whatever you want with it. You won't be pushed into anything.....I give you my promise.
I apologize for any offense. I'll give you all the information, and you can make inquiries yourself. if you never want to come back and tell me anything about what you found out......that's okay too.
I'll look for the other thread about when Amy and I were talking about homosexuality in the Bible. It seemed to me that the discussion started off with a question from you.....I could be wrong. I wouldn't be the first time. I hope it hasn't been deleted. I'm trying to remember if Marieelissa started the thread. There was so much information in it.
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Sorry it took so long to post.
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I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it. But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there. Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity.
You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.
How is that even close to the same? Being gay is a lifestyle and a choice. Being black is a skin color that someone is born with. No one ever said we are prejudiced against gays, we just disagree with their lifestyle, sort of like you disgree with ours as Christians.
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What is the true definition of "wrong" from a reasonable perspective
This is you asking a question from a perspective that the bible and it's teachings are unreasonable. You question is biased.
And since you believe everyone fashions their own morals without a moral law giver, why can't Christians fashion their own morals and say that being gay is wrong? Since Christianity has the largest following of people in the whole world....what was it you said?? Majority gets the vote??
Quote from me
with morality, majority doesn't matter.
Quote from you
Yes it does.
Well, that settles it, Christians are the majority and we get the vote of what is wrong and right!
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Wow, you dare to BOLD your words to people who do not approve of gays (but they are people that other people like as a person) and yet you BOLD your opinions to Christians for what we believe. That is really backward and prideful of you. :angry7:
Uh, why are you so offended that I bolded that?! Mark my words, unless something totally crazy and horrible happens (like Sharia Law takes over), it's inevitable that gays WILL have all the same rights as heteros within the next 10-20 years.
Why? Because it's unjust discrimination. What someone does in their bedroom is of NO CONSEQUENCE to *your* life. Therefore, criticizing someone for being gay in 15 years will be a societal TABOO. It's EXACTLY like black discrimination, Mack, because blacks were once considered inferior like gays are today.
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because blacks were once considered inferior like gays are today
who said gays are inferior? it's not a sin to be black, there's a difference between saying someone is committing sin and saying someone is inferior because of skin color.
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You both err because you don't know the redeeming power of God.
I'm pretty sure all of the atheists/agnostics I've met on here were once religious. So we DO know the propaganda you speak of...it's just now being on the other side, we know the tricks on how it works.
I've personally seen God heal all kinds of sicknesses (even Cancer) in my travels
Everyone knows cancer can go into remission. No god required.
The doctor has no explanation except a miracle took place. Look it up on the Net. Surely jordandog, being in the medical field, you have come across this?
Surely she has, as she's already explained before that there are some things that medical science can't explain YET and that the body is very resilient when it comes to survival. Again, no god required, just better technology to understand things.
When someone needs surgery to have a growth removed, and they are prayed for the night before, and the growth disappears.....what would you call that?
The surgeon taking it out? lol Even a fictional show like Grey's Anatomy can show you that. :heart: :heart:
When a deaf and dumb person (from birth) gets prayed for, and in a matter of 30 seconds hears and talks....what is that?
Again, these things are not unheard of, especially if he's being encouraged. What about the millions of people who get prayed for and NOTHING happens (or they die)? Yeah, you're statistics aren't so great here.
When a Heroin addict comes for deliverance (we prayed for him), and they are delivered with no withdrawls, and no future cravings, what is that?
A person finally having the confidence to get their sh*t together. Plenty of people quit bad habits cold-turkey without consulting an invisible parent every day.
When a gay person comes for deliverance from the gay lifestyle, and God delivers them, and heals the AIDS ravishing their body, so it disappears. Are they faking? After years?
Me thinks you didn't read what jordandog wrote. ???
They knew who He was and what He did.....but still crucified Him.
Obviously he wasn't very convincing. ;) You realize that if David Blaine lived 200 years ago, you might be a Blainist?
It tells us we can receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Do you believe it? Thousands upon thousands have received this gift, but most religions will tell you that it was only for the Apostles, and not for us today. I got it at 19. It was a supernatural experience. People are still getting it.
The "gift" of speaking in gibberish isn't going to impress anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated into it. Whoops, there I go being insulting again.
I love you, and want you to believe. Please, there is no push to convert you. Just to give you some truthful information so you have the knowledge. After you make your inquiries, do whatever you want with it. You won't be pushed into anything.....I give you my promise.
Uh-oh. And here I thought we were just discussing things and encouraging thought. Nope, some of y'all really are out to get us. GOOD LUCK!
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I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it. But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there. Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity.
You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.
There's that word hate again, when that word came from your camp....not me. I do not hate gays, different races, murderers, etc.
It is very revealing that you would include "different races" in the same context as you do murderers, your words not mine.....
I knew from about your second post on this board, but for the ones who didn't....you just outted yourself as the racist homophobic intolerant bigot that you are.
Your words not mine......
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I would love to have an answer as to why gays who do believe and who do accept the Bible (they are out there, contrary to what some might think the religious zealots have not driven them ALL from their faith), just aren't good enough to be 'cured'. How about the innocent babies born HIV+ from the get go? Talk about heartbreaking.
:-(
You both err because you don't know the redeeming power of God.
And you err just because you seem incapable of basic reasoning with practically everything but your own beliefs. It's like the bible is a parasitic attachment that zombifies reasoning. "Always disregard the facts. Let's stick our heads into an aged book to find our impenetrable answer."
Look it up on the Net. Surely jordandog, being in the medical field, you have come across this?
Sure. Even I have in a sense. I know this isn't the best example, but my family and I took in a horriblly abused mutt that had been starved, had mange, and had a bad case of stomach cancer. The vet estimated she had between 2-3 months to live. We fixed her up, my dad cooked her food every night, we socialized her big time, I was her best friend (seriously, I had never seen such a loyal dog before), and she was amazingly happy with us. She lived for 2 more years and I'm happy to report she wasn't in much pain till the final few days. It wasn't god that magically healed her for so long. It was the reason Queenofnines stated- we helped get her *bleep* together! We made her life positive. Hey, if the concept of some loving god does this for someone, more power to them. But I'm putting my money on the power of positive thought in general. No anti-gay god required.
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Wow, you dare to BOLD your words to people who do not approve of gays (but they are people that other people like as a person) and yet you BOLD your opinions to Christians for what we believe. That is really backward and prideful of you. :angry7:
Uh, why are you so offended that I bolded that?! Mark my words, unless something totally crazy and horrible happens (like Sharia Law takes over), it's inevitable that gays WILL have all the same rights as heteros within the next 10-20 years.
Why? Because it's unjust discrimination. What someone does in their bedroom is of NO CONSEQUENCE to *your* life. Therefore, criticizing someone for being gay in 15 years will be a societal TABOO. It's EXACTLY like black discrimination, Mack, because blacks were once considered inferior like gays are today.
No one said they wouldn't have the same rights.
Being gay and being black are not even in the same category.
People discriminate against others for EVERYTHING not just sexual preference and skin color.
Do we have gays as slaves? Do we have separate restaurants for gays? Separate schools? You're stretching it.
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I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it. But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there. Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity.
You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.
There's that word hate again, when that word came from your camp....not me. I do not hate gays, different races, murderers, etc.
It is very revealing that you would include "different races" in the same context as you do murderers, your words not mine.....
I knew from about your second post on this board, but for the ones who didn't....you just outted yourself as the racist homophobic intolerant bigot that you are.
Your words not mine......
I'm pretty sure that was twisted a bit. She mentioned gays because that's what were talking about. She mentioned different races because queen brought it up. She mentioned murderers to prove that ur religion show love to everyone no matter what the sin is (being gay or being a murderer).
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I can't be the only one who doesn't agree with the lifestyle. California's majority voted NO against it on Prop 8, and California has a hugh community of gays. Everybody thought it would pass.....it did not.
Only because of disgusting Mormon funding...geez, get with it. But you are right there are still a whole *bleep*-ton of bigoted, ignorant, arrogant gay haters out there. Every time I read the comments on an article concerning gays, I am appalled for humanity.
You people will be so ashamed in a few years when being prejudiced against gays will be just the same as being prejudiced against blacks today.
There's that word hate again, when that word came from your camp....not me. I do not hate gays, different races, murderers, etc.
It is very revealing that you would include "different races" in the same context as you do murderers, your words not mine.....
I knew from about your second post on this board, but for the ones who didn't....you just outted yourself as the racist homophobic intolerant bigot that you are.
Your words not mine......
I'm pretty sure that was twisted a bit. She mentioned gays because that's what were talking about. She mentioned different races because queen brought it up. She mentioned murderers to prove that ur religion show love to everyone no matter what the sin is (being gay or being a murderer).
Thanks Mackenzie. :heart: Straight and true is what you are. Everybody can come to their own conclusions. There's no mystery.
Just got up. Slept so good and long. Now for some roast beef......life is good.
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Wow, you dare to BOLD your words to people who do not approve of gays (but they are people that other people like as a person) and yet you BOLD your opinions to Christians for what we believe. That is really backward and prideful of you. :angry7:
Uh, why are you so offended that I bolded that?! Mark my words, unless something totally crazy and horrible happens (like Sharia Law takes over), it's inevitable that gays WILL have all the same rights as heteros within the next 10-20 years.
Why? Let me re-phrase it to show you why: "What someone does as a Christian in their personal life, is of no consequence to you."; " You will be so ashamed one day that you were so prejudiced against Christians." Now, I realize that we are only speaking of gays/religion in here, but the same thing applies to Christians/non-believers and the way Christians are spoken against, and made to look foolish. Christians are people and citizens, just as gays are, and need the same respect that you seem to lavish more upon gays.
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Christians are people and citizens, just as gays are, and need the same respect that you seem to lavish more upon gays.
Gays don't have the same rights that you take for granted though. Should the major force with bad b+w reasoning that's also keeping them from being equal be treated with the utmost respect?
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Christians are people and citizens, just as gays are, and need the same respect that you seem to lavish more upon gays.
Gays don't have the same rights that you take for granted though. Should the major force with bad b+w reasoning that's also keeping them from being equal be treated with the utmost respect?
I see what you are saying Falconer. I am kind of responding to her personal remark and trying to get her to look at it more objectively when it comes to Christians and her attitude toward them. I know gays don't appear to have the same rights, in one respect, but in another, there are many gays that have the same rights as others and a lot of people don't even realize their lifestyle is what it is. It's sort of like not saying you are gay, so you can be treated the same, as well as the Christian is all of the sudden treated different when they reveal that fact. She makes a big stand for the gays' rights and totally disregards the Christians' ideas and beliefs. So you see, it was more of a personal remark from me to her and not a major aim to all in general.
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Annella,
Sorry it took me so long to answer your post about this. I have run on no sleep and too much work the last week - actually slept for 9 straight hours which is unheard of for me. I also spent quite a bit of time doing some checking on things, which is in what I wrote below.
Thanks, but no thanks as to the offer of contacting people with knowledge of God healing some from AIDS. I am sure that they all would in fact tell me they have seen it happen and what am I supposed to say or do? Tell them they are full of it and inform them that, by rights, they should furnish medically sound documentation to all associations across the world? That would certainly NOT be my style to do so, no matter how much I might want to. Since you wrote that, I have made many phone calls of my own to friends/colleagues across the US and also gone to online sites of every association I am a paying and/or registered member of - AMA, CDC, AACN, AACR, WHO, AEGIS(the AIDS Global Base), quite a few more, and have thrown the question out there after searching for it on my own - “Do any of you know of, have documentation of an AIDS patient being cured through prayer?” The answer so far (after some laughing and asking me if I was serious, drunk, or self-prescribing:P) has been a resounding “NO, as if you wouldn’t know about it if I had?!” I said in another discussion, which queen mentioned, this which I found and copied to put here in case you didn’t see it: I have mentioned that I have seen plenty of things happen with patients that cannot be explained and probably never will. It is at those times I actually say, either to myself or out loud, "That was a miracle." The difference now, as opposed to when I fully believed, is that I am once again amazed by the sheer will of the human body and mind to survive. Not by a supernatural act of a divine agent.
They were NOT in the scope of AIDS disappearing. There are probably thousands of surgeons who have gone in to remove some type of tumor or anomalous growth, only to find it was NOT what they thought, not in the area they thought, and even not seeing it period. That is BEFORE the advancements we now have in every form of diagnostics such as imaging of every kind imaginable. There are also many less than stellar docs out there. They may use inferior/older testing means, interpret a blood clot a as a ‘tumor’, go in to remove, and it’s gone - because the body reabsorbed it, but there will still be evidence present to suggest that. There are any number of situations where things appear really ‘wonky’, but they are explainable. When they aren’t, as I said, it is admitted that we/they do NOT know what happened. There are thousands of stories out there from Third World countries of ‘miracles’ abounding. I won’t go into it all here, but let’s just say 99.9% of those are due to ignorance and/or misinterpretation. There are times when those stories become very dangerous also. Right now, there is a yet another doctor in Africa who is claiming to be curing AIDS patients left and right. The result is that people are now refusing meds and treatment and I am sure I don’t need to tell you how irresponsible and dangerous on a worldwide level THAT is. I hope someday to be able to write or say it's been discovered and to be able to administer a cure for AIDS, not to mention a host of other illnesses. You know what else? IF any of those proven cures came as the result of some divine intervention, so be it. I don’t care where they come from, I just want them to come.
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Do we have gays as slaves? Do we have separate restaurants for gays? Separate schools? You're stretching it.
Uh, well many have to FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES simply for being gay; I think that's a pretty big deal, don't you? They're not allowed to commit and get legal benefits with the one they love in most states...again, HUGE deal. They're not allowed to serve in the military. So many people hate them simply for being attracted to the same sex.
You don't have to go through any of this. So what am I stretching?
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Do we have gays as slaves? Do we have separate restaurants for gays? Separate schools? You're stretching it.
Uh, well many have to FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES simply for being gay; I think that's a pretty big deal, don't you? They're not allowed to commit and get legal benefits with the one they love in most states...again, HUGE deal. They're not allowed to serve in the military. So many people hate them simply for being attracted to the same sex.
You don't have to go through any of this. So what am I stretching?
Before I go any further I would like to say whether or not I go through any of this wasn't even the question because I'm not black or gay haha, which is the two things we were disputing. but anyway...
If we're talking about religious people disagreeing with gays, in my religion if you follow it correctly whether you disagree with it or not you will love the person...so if someone does something different it's not because of their religion it's because of their personal feelings. You can't blame someone's religion for every action they make. They can't get married because marriage is defined as being with the opposite sex. The military thing is a don't ask don't tell situation. And people hate others for everything. I live in a dorm that is predominantly black, some of them hate me just for being white and make comments about it, others give me a hug and a wave every time I see them. It would be great if there was absolutely no hate in the world, but too many people disagree for that to happen. Just because I disagree with gays doesn't mean I hate them, so you can't say that we are all gay bashers just for disagreeing. Furthermore, considering it's a choice it doesn't compare to someone's skin color.
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Do we have gays as slaves? Do we have separate restaurants for gays? Separate schools? You're stretching it.
Uh, well many have to FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES simply for being gay; I think that's a pretty big deal, don't you? They're not allowed to commit and get legal benefits with the one they love in most states...again, HUGE deal. They're not allowed to serve in the military. So many people hate them simply for being attracted to the same sex.
You don't have to go through any of this. So what am I stretching?
Before I go any further I would like to say whether or not I go through any of this wasn't even the question because I'm not black or gay haha, which is the two things we were disputing. but anyway...
If we're talking about religious people disagreeing with gays, in my religion if you follow it correctly whether you disagree with it or not you will love the person...so if someone does something different it's not because of their religion it's because of their personal feelings. You can't blame someone's religion for every action they make. They can't get married because marriage is defined as being with the opposite sex. The military thing is a don't ask don't tell situation. And people hate others for everything. I live in a dorm that is predominantly black, some of them hate me just for being white and make comments about it, others give me a hug and a wave every time I see them. It would be great if there was absolutely no hate in the world, but too many people disagree for that to happen. Just because I disagree with gays doesn't mean I hate them, so you can't say that we are all gay bashers just for disagreeing. Furthermore, considering it's a choice it doesn't compare to someone's skin color.
Not 1 Christian on this forum has said they hate gays......although they've been accused of it. Not 1 Christian on this forum has gay bashed....although they've been accused of it.
Your right M, disagreement and hate are totally different.
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You can't blame someone's religion for every action they make. They can't get married because marriage is defined as being with the opposite sex.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure a country of 72% Christians has something to do with this.
The military thing is a don't ask don't tell situation.
You brush off such a serious thing so casually. Sure there are gays in the military...but they have to hide who they are. If they're found out, they get kicked out and lose their whole livelihood. Big, big deal here.
considering it's a choice it doesn't compare to someone's skin color.
I really don't understand how people can think it's a choice. There are plenty of males that I'm not attracted to...and never, ever would be. Does that make me a lesbian?
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Not 1 Christian on this forum has said they hate gays......although they've been accused of it. Not 1 Christian on this forum has gay bashed....although they've been accused of it.
Ms. Annella, you really need to be careful with your habit of speaking on behalf of others. I have seen a Christian on here say, "Fags need to get back in the closet where they f*cking belong!"
Needless to say, I told THEM to get their homophobic butt back in the closet. ;)
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Not 1 Christian on this forum has said they hate gays......although they've been accused of it. Not 1 Christian on this forum has gay bashed....although they've been accused of it.
Ms. Annella, you really need to be careful with your habit of speaking on behalf of others. I have seen a Christian on here say, "Fags need to get back in the closet where they f*cking belong!"
Needless to say, I told THEM to get their homophobic butt back in the closet. ;)
If your talking about Marieelissa, uh.....that's a questionable source of true Christianity. The poor girl needs help and is probably doing the best she can. I believe she's endeavoring to be a Christian.
As far as a habit....I can think of worse ones. Not everyone that calls themselves a Christian have the "fruits" of one. The Christian body on this forum is pretty much in agreement with one another. If not, they are certainly welcome to say so.
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You can't blame someone's religion for every action they make. They can't get married because marriage is defined as being with the opposite sex.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure a country of 72% Christians has something to do with this.
The military thing is a don't ask don't tell situation.
You brush off such a serious thing so casually. Sure there are gays in the military...but they have to hide who they are. If they're found out, they get kicked out and lose their whole livelihood. Big, big deal here.
considering it's a choice it doesn't compare to someone's skin color.
I really don't understand how people can think it's a choice. There are plenty of males that I'm not attracted to...and never, ever would be. Does that make me a lesbian?
Marriage was defined a long time ago, but go ahead and blame Christianity for every single thing ha.
I'm not brushing it off, I'm stating what it is.
And not being attracted to a certain male is EXTREMELY different than being attracted to females.
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Not 1 Christian on this forum has said they hate gays......although they've been accused of it. Not 1 Christian on this forum has gay bashed....although they've been accused of it.
Ms. Annella, you really need to be careful with your habit of speaking on behalf of others. I have seen a Christian on here say, "Fags need to get back in the closet where they f*cking belong!"
Needless to say, I told THEM to get their homophobic butt back in the closet. ;)
I have been on this thread the whole time, I must have missed that?
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and even his reverence for his Maker, all were early inculcated in him by precepts which were the common practice in decent society the world over.
I don't understand how this makes him a full-blooded christian...almost every source points to him being a deist (simply acknowledging, respecting, and occasionally praising a divine designer instead of worshipping the defined christian god and the bible). And practically every account of him talking of christianity can leave one very skeptical of what he truly meant. I've read the book 1776 just to gather information on the war and they actually included a chunk about Washingtons beliefs and every source I've read online that isn't christian aligns to him being this way. It pretty much stated the same as this-
http://ezinearticles.com/?Was-George-Washington-a-Christian,-Or-Not?--Conclusive-Evidence!&id=1684534
But understand this entire arguments point was to just show Annella that it's very debatable to say GW was a devout christian- the opposite is actually more plausable. All in all, we should take that articles 2nd sentence to heart and focus on his accomplishments.
Roman rule vs Christians is another good example.
Thx for the reply, Annella. I'll get back to you later as I'm falling asleep here.
I have been on this thread the whole time, I must have missed that?
There is a 99% chance she deleted it as she does all offensive posts. Like the one of her wishing me dead! lol
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There is a 99% chance she deleted it as she does all offensive posts. Like the one of her wishing me dead! lol
Ah, very good point! hah.
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Quote from jcribb:
and even his reverence for his Maker, all were early inculcated in him by precepts which were the common practice in decent society the world over.
Quote from Falconer:
I don't understand how this makes him a full-blooded christian...almost every source points to him being a deist (simply acknowledging, respecting, and occasionally praising a divine designer instead of worshipping the defined christian god and the bible). And practically every account of him talking of christianity can leave one very skeptical of what he truly meant. I've read the book 1776 just to gather information on the war and they actually included a chunk about Washingtons beliefs and every source I've read online that isn't christian aligns to him being this way. It pretty much stated the same as this-
http://ezinearticles.com/?Was-George-Washington-a-Christian,-Or-Not?--Conclusive-Evidence!&id=1684534
But understand this entire arguments point was to just show Annella that it's very debatable to say GW was a devout christian- the opposite is actually more plausable. All in all, we should take that articles 2nd sentence to heart and focus on his accomplishments.
I didn't say it made him a "full-blooded" Christian! Just accept the facts as they are that he had some kind of fellowship with his Lord aka Maker aka Creator, etc. and was exemplary in his character, for the most part, and was popular enough for citizens to have wanted him to be president again, and the last time, he had to say no for health and other reasons. Good grief, people do like to make mountains out of mole hills.....
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Or dissect every word or phrase. Yup ;)
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Or dissect every word or phrase. Yup ;)
LOL
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If your talking about Marieelissa, uh.....that's a questionable source of true Christianity.
No I wasn't. I didn't want to name names, but it's not marieelissa.
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Just accept the facts as they are that he had some kind of fellowship with his Lord aka Maker aka Creator, etc. and was exemplary in his character, for the most part
I don't know WHY you've guys run with this for as long as you have. It makes no difference WHAT people from 200+ years ago believed. Your pals from back then were also very pro-slavery; should we bring that back?? It is our roots and in the Bible, after all!
And Mack, definitions for things change all the time. Women used to not be allowed to vote, interracial marriage was frowned upon, etc. It's called progression.
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If your talking about Marieelissa, uh.....that's a questionable source of true Christianity.
No I wasn't. I didn't want to name names, but it's not marieelissa.
I think your making this up.......I've never seen any Christian on here use the F word.
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If your talking about Marieelissa, uh.....that's a questionable source of true Christianity.
No I wasn't. I didn't want to name names, but it's not marieelissa.
I think your making this up.......I've never seen any Christian on here use the F word.
Well, you are wrong, and queen is NOT 'making it up' - why even say that? I remember it also and it was in the thread "HOW DOES EVERYONE FEEL ABOUT SAME SEX MARRIGE?? ICE BREAKER"
Here is the statement, which was later removed by the poster (but is still there because others quoted it) who is most definitely a good christian! I will leave the name in it because she DID say it:
Quote from: ro901 on June 26, 2010, 10:11:03 am
I think gays should get back in the fuking closet where they belong and stay there.
You can take that any way you want, but it is there in black and white.
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Yep, that's the person I was referring to. Thanks, jordandog!
Annella...proof that this here atheist doesn't lie. ;D
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Just accept the facts as they are that he had some kind of fellowship with his Lord aka Maker aka Creator, etc. and was exemplary in his character, for the most part
I don't know WHY you've guys run with this for as long as you have. It makes no difference WHAT people from 200+ years ago believed. Your pals from back then were also very pro-slavery; should we bring that back?? It is our roots and in the Bible, after all!
And Mack, definitions for things change all the time. Women used to not be allowed to vote, interracial marriage was frowned upon, etc. It's called progression.
Washington inherited 10 slaves from his father, and took good care of them. He had way more later. He freed all his slaves and to top that, gave them land and monies to help them make a life. And YES, it DOES make a difference WHAT people years ago believed - they have helped to build our wonderful country, and now to try and be torn down from others that want to make us dependant on the government. We'll keep running with it as long as it takes ................
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Jcribb- I must have posted in the wrong thread actually. I guess I had both open and posted in that one by accident. Disregard my previous post; it belongs in the retard thread!
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Jcribb- I must have posted in the wrong thread actually. I guess I had both open and posted in that one by accident. Disregard my previous post; it belongs in the retard thread!
I beg your pardon? Clarify please so I don't go and put the cart before the horse in my response.......
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I beg your pardon? Clarify please so I don't go and put the cart before the horse in my response.......
On page 19 I start talking about GW...but we were originally talking about him in the "believe god = retarded" thread. Unless I'm mistaken, I think I jumped rails here by accident.
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Yep, that's the person I was referring to. Thanks, jordandog!
Annella...proof that this here atheist doesn't lie. ;D
You're welcome. :) If anyone thinks I was wrong by including the poster's name, oh well, if you write it ya own it. I don't believe in 'photographic memory' per se, but I DO have a very eidetic one, always have, and there are not too many things I have forgotten seeing on here no matter how long ago they were written. I had to find it just on principle anyway. I didn't like the inference made re "making it up" because there was no reason to. We might not all believe the bible or in God, but that doesn't mean we have to lie about what a christian would say just to make them look bad. ;)
And as far as NO christian in these forums saying they hate or have bashed gays, I believe that is incorrect also.....(I am off to sleepland for a few hours, so I'll see you all later on.)
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Jordandog, if you manage to see this through Maries garbage, there was a story a few years back of a man who had a bone marrow transplant and the HIV disappeared in his system. But I never saw any update to that story. Have you heard of it? Was it just false readings? Is the guy even still alive? And for the record I know there isn't a cure, but I was just curious if you knew any updates on that story.
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Just accept the facts as they are that he had some kind of fellowship with his Lord aka Maker aka Creator, etc. and was exemplary in his character, for the most part
I don't know WHY you've guys run with this for as long as you have. It makes no difference WHAT people from 200+ years ago believed. Your pals from back then were also very pro-slavery; should we bring that back?? It is our roots and in the Bible, after all!
And Mack, definitions for things change all the time. Women used to not be allowed to vote, interracial marriage was frowned upon, etc. It's called progression.
Oh, is that what it's called? Thanks.
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because blacks were once considered inferior like gays are today
who said gays are inferior? it's not a sin to be black, there's a difference between saying someone is committing sin and saying someone is inferior because of skin color.
Why do you care if people are gay? I mean really, don't you have enough on your plate?
THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. If you don't want to discuss it do us all a favor and get off.
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because blacks were once considered inferior like gays are today
who said gays are inferior? it's not a sin to be black, there's a difference between saying someone is committing sin and saying someone is inferior because of skin color.
Why do you care if people are gay? I mean really, don't you have enough on your plate?
THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. If you don't want to discuss it do us all a favor and get off.
I am just curious why people care. Please do me a favor and quit telling people to get off the forum, you don't run this. I have as much priviledge as anyone else to post on the forum. Are you the owner? Then Hush.
Well the point is this thread is ABOUT gays, so we're going to discuss it. So enter in some conversation about it or don't waste space. If you have something important to say go right ahead. How do you feel about religion and homosexuality? That's the topic.
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I beg your pardon? Clarify please so I don't go and put the cart before the horse in my response.......
On page 19 I start talking about GW...but we were originally talking about him in the "believe god = retarded" thread. Unless I'm mistaken, I think I jumped rails here by accident.
I moved them to the other thread.
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What about people that are born both male and female...I mean is that a sin? Which sex do they go after? How could God hate a sin...Then?
This is a very good point. :thumbsup: I'd like to hear a Christian's answer on this...
Also, people who have a sex change because they are absolutely miserable living in the "wrong" body. I'm sure Christians will just think that's a choice, too...but what about children, like Angelina Jolie's little girl, Shiloh? She's only like, 4 and wants to be a boy...whatever, I'm sure it's just a "choice"!!
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What about people that are born both male and female...I mean is that a sin? Which sex do they go after? How could God hate a sin...Then?
This is a very good point. :thumbsup: I'd like to hear a Christian's answer on this...
Also, people who have a sex change because they are absolutely miserable living in the "wrong" body. I'm sure Christians will just think that's a choice, too...but what about children, like Angelina Jolie's little girl, Shiloh? She's only like, 4 and wants to be a boy...whatever, I'm sure it's just a "choice"!!
God provided us with doctors to help children who are born with both parts and help determine what went wrong and what their hormones read.
Having a sex change IS a choice, how could it not be?
When I was little I was a total tomboy, and I still am somewhat of a tomboy to this day, play sports all the time. Her wanting to be a boy has nothing to do with sexuality, she is FOUR.
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Why do you care if people are gay? I mean really, don't you have enough on your plate?
THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. If you don't want to discuss it do us all a favor and get off.
Uh, marie asks a valid question: why do y'all care so much about somebody being gay? Just because some book says so...weak...
At least with killing, raping, and stealing, there are REAL reasons for those being wrong. Because, you know, those actually AFFECT your life if done to you or someone you love.
What some fabulous diva does in his bedroom? That affects your life 0%.
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Why do you care if people are gay? I mean really, don't you have enough on your plate?
THAT IS THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. If you don't want to discuss it do us all a favor and get off.
Uh, marie asks a valid question: why do y'all care so much about somebody being gay? Just because some book says so...weak...
At least with killing, raping, and stealing, there are REAL reasons for those being wrong. Because, you know, those actually AFFECT your life if done to you or someone you love.
What some fabulous diva does in his bedroom? That affects your life 0%.
No one said we are going to attack them in the street and say YOU ARE WRONG. Do you agree with everything that doesn't affect your life? No. My Christianity affects your life none whatsoever, yet you disagree with it. I can disagree with gays and not discriminate against them. I live in this world, so I have the right to agree or disagree with things I witness daily. It doesn't mean I'm going to voice it constantly, I didn't start this thread? It was brought up on a debate/discuss forum. That is why we are discussing it. Furthermore, whether or not it is wrong is really just an opinion so you can sit here and tell me it's not all day and I'm never going to agree, just like I can sit here and tell you there's a God all day and you're never going to agree.
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What about people that are born both male and female...I mean is that a sin? Which sex do they go after? How could God hate a sin...Then?
This is a very good point. :thumbsup: I'd like to hear a Christian's answer on this...
Also, people who have a sex change because they are absolutely miserable living in the "wrong" body. I'm sure Christians will just think that's a choice, too...but what about children, like Angelina Jolie's little girl, Shiloh? She's only like, 4 and wants to be a boy...whatever, I'm sure it's just a "choice"!!
It is definitely in interesting question. The bible doesn't even address the issue of hermaphrodites so it's hard to distinguish God's position about them. What we know is that those born with both sexual organs will have an internal gender identity and as they mature they will know what gender they are and can make a decision to opt for surgery to solidify their true gender. We know sin entering the world sometimes takes it toll in our physical bodies causing deformities, and this is one of those cases.
(Not that the individual themselves sinned but we are all under the curse of sin and live in imperfect bodies in an imperfect world...I know your argument about how God can't be perfect and create imperfection so I don't need a reminder)
As for people who are born a specific sex and find that they are unhappy with what they were born as....I don't really know. I have wondered this myself. The bible only addresses homosexuality not gender confusion, so I can't say I know what God thinks about it.
What I DO know is, that no matter WHAT, every single person is precious to God, and He loves them regardless of any of that. :)
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God provided us with doctors to help children who are born with both parts and help determine what went wrong and what their hormones read.
Having a sex change IS a choice, how could it not be?
When I was little I was a total tomboy, and I still am somewhat of a tomboy to this day, play sports all the time. Her wanting to be a boy has nothing to do with sexuality, she is FOUR.
Her wanting to be a boy will turn into her being gay or bi most likely...also, it means she isn't feminine...little girls usually love dresses and pink...this is why people are born that way and not by choice.
I am curious if she likes I mean likes little girls or little boys.
Okay that is absolutely not true. My sister and I both were tomboys and played sports and played in the mud and she's married and I'm far from gay, so don't generalize.
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There is a ton more sin than just being gay. I don't know why this is the focus...like the people who are against being gay don't commit other sins or is this the only "sin" you don't commit so you are all Gung-ho?...having sex before marriage is a sin. Divorce is a sin (just cause you got sick of each other is not valid) and there are the 7 deadly sins...
If being gay is a sin, o'well...being too rich is a sin as well. In america though, it is ok...but
it is easier for a camel to walk through a needles eye than a rich person to enter heaven.
Homosexuality is NOT the only sin I focus on, I don't focus on talking about sin at all really--I'm just responding to a THREAD on a FORUM. && as for you deciding that is the only sin I don't commit, it's not the ONLY one I don't commit. But you're right, I sin every day (I'm human).
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Her wanting to be a boy will turn into her being gay or bi most likely...also, it means she isn't feminine...little girls usually love dresses and pink...this is why people are born that way and not by choice.
All it means is you are not as feminine as other girls. That's all, not all times will these boy girls turn gay or bi.
Make up your mind. IDK what you think because that was a blatant contradiction.
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Her wanting to be a boy will turn into her being gay or bi most likely...also, it means she isn't feminine...little girls usually love dresses and pink...this is why people are born that way and not by choice.
All it means is you are not as feminine as other girls. That's all, not all times will these boy girls turn gay or bi.
Make up your mind. IDK what you think because that was a blatant contradiction.
It isn't black or white...people are different. Some boy girls turn bi or gay some don't.
Yes, some choose to and some don't.
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I think I understand what you are thinking so I will go into further detail..
At four years old...I would think you are not sexually active or have a preference with sex. You are still innocent and are not thinking in sexual ways. When children start to explore their sexuality, take notice....they will either go for the same sex or opposite and maybe both...since they dont think in terms of sin or people hating gay people, children are very honest.
You will see it and maybe not. If you have children, set up a hidden camera at sleepovers...you might just be surprised. ;)
honestly even the thought of setting up a camera to watch kids "explore their sexuality" just sounds extremely creepy
secondly, by the time we get to an age where we would EXPLORE our sexuality we know the difference between right and wrong
people dont always explore both and that's a fact
they choose to in some cases however
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Regardless of whether or not you want to believe it, humans are sexual beings from birth...we just don't label it that way until we are older. The difference is, this is a purely innocent form of sexuality. Once babies start gaining control over their movements, they start to explore...and guess what? Some places being touched and rubbed feel better than others. My daughter went through a period where she wanted to keep her hands down her pants, and she still explores herself with her fingers...doesn't mean its dirty, and doesn't mean she is showing a preference to either sex. Same for little boys. And there is nothing wrong with it (although I have had arguments with my mother in law for insinuating to my daughter that she was dirty for touching herself...I was highly p/o'd and told her in no uncertain terms was she ever to say anything like that to my daughter again if she wanted to see her in person...but that is another topic for another thread).
Unless you agree with Kinsey's levels of sexuality, though, no one knows another person's sexuality until that other person is comfortable enough to share it. IMO, though, there is too much concern in this society on what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. People who discriminate against others based on who they prefer to be horizontally naked with? That's ridiculous...whether or not it is believed to be a sin. Like Marie said, there are so many other sins that people conveniently ignore on a day to day basis. Why is this one so big? Why does it offend so many so personally? Its not like they are trying to convert...
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Yep, that's the person I was referring to. Thanks, jordandog!
Annella...proof that this here atheist doesn't lie. ;D
Okay I'll give it to you. I registered June 12th, so it's a good chance I missed it. It took me awhile to get acclimated to the FC site. The Christians I'm actually referring to, are those who post here all the time. I've never seen them use the F word, the word hate, or any other curse word, nor would I ever expect to see it. Their conversation is above board. I think you understand with whom I'm referring to. The handle your referring to, doesn't post in here now or I've just missed it.
In fact, anyone, Christian or otherwise who uses that kind of language to get their point across is showing how weak minded they are. Not everyone who calls themselves Christian have the "fruits" of one. The "Christians" on this forum that post almost everyday have attributes of Christian Character.
I apologize if you feel I called you a liar. I'd went back over the last month of conversations the best I could and found nothing what you pointed out. I didn't go back far enough.
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Regardless of whether or not you want to believe it, humans are sexual beings from birth...we just don't label it that way until we are older. The difference is, this is a purely innocent form of sexuality. Once babies start gaining control over their movements, they start to explore...and guess what? Some places being touched and rubbed feel better than others. My daughter went through a period where she wanted to keep her hands down her pants, and she still explores herself with her fingers...doesn't mean its dirty, and doesn't mean she is showing a preference to either sex. Same for little boys. And there is nothing wrong with it (although I have had arguments with my mother in law for insinuating to my daughter that she was dirty for touching herself...I was highly p/o'd and told her in no uncertain terms was she ever to say anything like that to my daughter again if she wanted to see her in person...but that is another topic for another thread).
Unless you agree with Kinsey's levels of sexuality, though, no one knows another person's sexuality until that other person is comfortable enough to share it. IMO, though, there is too much concern in this society on what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. People who discriminate against others based on who they prefer to be horizontally naked with? That's ridiculous...whether or not it is believed to be a sin. Like Marie said, there are so many other sins that people conveniently ignore on a day to day basis. Why is this one so big? Why does it offend so many so personally? Its not like they are trying to convert...
The difference in children touching themselves though is their level of innocense, they don't mean it in a sexual manner. I never said it bothered me, I said I disagree with it. It has been distored on here many times that it bothers me that people are gay, I don't say a darn thing to them. I just disagree with it and have that right. I didn't start the thread, so no I don't hold it higher than other sins.
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Regardless of whether or not you want to believe it, humans are sexual beings from birth...we just don't label it that way until we are older. The difference is, this is a purely innocent form of sexuality. Once babies start gaining control over their movements, they start to explore...and guess what? Some places being touched and rubbed feel better than others. My daughter went through a period where she wanted to keep her hands down her pants, and she still explores herself with her fingers...doesn't mean its dirty, and doesn't mean she is showing a preference to either sex. Same for little boys. And there is nothing wrong with it (although I have had arguments with my mother in law for insinuating to my daughter that she was dirty for touching herself...I was highly p/o'd and told her in no uncertain terms was she ever to say anything like that to my daughter again if she wanted to see her in person...but that is another topic for another thread).
Unless you agree with Kinsey's levels of sexuality, though, no one knows another person's sexuality until that other person is comfortable enough to share it. IMO, though, there is too much concern in this society on what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. People who discriminate against others based on who they prefer to be horizontally naked with? That's ridiculous...whether or not it is believed to be a sin. Like Marie said, there are so many other sins that people conveniently ignore on a day to day basis. Why is this one so big? Why does it offend so many so personally? Its not like they are trying to convert...
It's not being taken personally....it's the topic of the thread! Your applying discrimination also, which is not being done. The fact that this has been labeled likened as any other sin....I brought that out also. So trying to call us out on these things AGAIN is not quite fair.
We do not hate gays....been said before
We do not discriminate against gays.....been said before
We are not racist or prejudice....been said before
We are not singling this out as the ultimate sin.....been said before
What we do is live by the foundations of the Word of God, and don't want this lifestyle shoved down our throats as being acceptable. What we CAN'T do is say this is okay. We cannot be partakers in other mens sin.....no matter what it is. In word or deed. All through Biblical history, this was a sin that polluted a land and it's people. It was widely used in Idol worship to (male prostitutes), enrage God and give glory to the enemy. It was a "In your face God". I've studied this out, and every nation that accepted and practiced this in Biblical times incurred the direct disfavor of God, because it was allowed to become acceptable.
Without going into great detail (but I can if you want), as there is so much connected with this lifestyle in the Bible. I've said it before in another thread and will say it again. The sexual act is spiritual in nature....God made it to be. When it gets perverted or negatively applied, it's not just 2 people doing something that doesn't affect anyone else. It most certainly affects a Nation and it's people over time.
Now....you and I Amy have had a very long convo about this on another thread, with scriptures, etc. We do not agree....fine. Because there are people on here that don't believe the Bible or it's teachings, that's where the disagreement comes. Not because we as Christians are being biased or racist or any other of the above things we've been accused of throughout this whole thread.
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Whoa Whoa! I did not direct my post at anyone personally...nor was it directed at anyone on this forum. It was a generalized statement. Why is it, then, that my throat is being jumped down?
It cannot be denied that in the outside world (not this forum) that gays are discriminated against and are hated. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of any of this.
Annella, why are you bringing racism up with me? I never mentioned it. I made a blanket statement about the country's general consensus...not yours or anyone else here. Please take the time to re-read what I wrote.
I understand perfectly what the topic of this thread is. I never said "get over it" or "why are you talking about it". My words were why is this "sin" considered so big when there are other ones and why are people so offended by it.
Annella, you have said many times on this forum not to own something that isn't directed at you personally. I respectfully would like to remind you of those words and urge you to take your own advice.
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My words were why is this "sin" considered so big when there are other ones and why are people so offended by it.
I think it's because people don't understand God's love for them. When that happens, they feel guilty constantly about their own sin, and it becomes easier to judge others for their sin than to deal with your own. Hate isn't from God, the people that hate gays because it's a sin...or say that God hates them, don't read the bible.
The bible says, if you hate your brother you have no part with God. As a matter of face it's said that it is considered murder to hate your brother. WOW! If we hate anyone in our hearts, God says it's murder?! Boy do we need grace! No one is exempt from this. Yes GOD HATES SIN, and so should we....but never are we to transpose the sin to the sinner to justify hate.
The people who commit hate crimes for God's cause, are ignorant to the doctrine of the faith they claim to be a part of. These ignorant acts should not be generalized to an entire religion's belief. The bible is VERY clear where God stands about sin and it also VERY clear on where God stands when it comes to showing love to your fellow human beings.
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The bible doesn't even address the issue of hermaphrodites so it's hard to distinguish God's position about them.
I thought you said the Bible had all the answers? ??? Ah, well, I'm sure some slick creationist website can craft an "answer" to this issue. God and "science", perhaps?
Not that the individual themselves sinned but we are all under the curse of sin and live in imperfect bodies
Thanks god. Biblical contradiction #9,782: Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. –Deuteronomy 24:16 and then
He does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. – Exodus 34:7
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Whoa Whoa! I did not direct my post at anyone personally...nor was it directed at anyone on this forum. It was a generalized statement. Why is it, then, that my throat is being jumped down?
It cannot be denied that in the outside world (not this forum) that gays are discriminated against and are hated. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of any of this.
Annella, why are you bringing racism up with me? I never mentioned it. I made a blanket statement about the country's general consensus...not yours or anyone else here. Please take the time to re-read what I wrote.
I understand perfectly what the topic of this thread is. I never said "get over it" or "why are you talking about it". My words were why is this "sin" considered so big when there are other ones and why are people so offended by it.
Annella, you have said many times on this forum not to own something that isn't directed at you personally. I respectfully would like to remind you of those words and urge you to take your own advice.
All through this thread, we as Christians have being discriminating, prejudiced, or hate gays, we're not singling out this one sin above any others. I never said you said "get over it". While I'm not jumping down your throat Amy, you alluded to the same things we have been trying to say we are NOT doing.
Unless you agree with Kinsey's levels of sexuality, though, no one knows another person's sexuality until that other person is comfortable enough to share it. IMO, though, there is too much concern in this society on what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. People who discriminate against others based on who they prefer to be horizontally naked with? That's ridiculous...whether or not it is believed to be a sin. Like Marie said, there are so many other sins that people conveniently ignore on a day to day basis. Why is this one so big? Why does it offend so many so personally? Its not like they are trying to convert...
We do NOT hate gays, etc. No matter what we say, it's still not heard. I for one have been applied some pretty nasty titles that have nothing to do with how I actually feel, no matter what I say. They were directed personally. So excuse me if I'd like to set the record straight whenever I see the same being alluded to again.
if I misinterpreted what you were trying to imply in your post, then apology offered. However, we have diligently been trying to separate what we actually feel as Christians and are forever "lumped" into the discriminatory side of things....this is not true, but all through this thread it's been so accordingly. If you were implying this to those outside this forum.....your original post did not signify the difference.
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Whoa Whoa! I did not direct my post at anyone personally...nor was it directed at anyone on this forum. It was a generalized statement. Why is it, then, that my throat is being jumped down?
It cannot be denied that in the outside world (not this forum) that gays are discriminated against and are hated. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of any of this.
Annella, why are you bringing racism up with me? I never mentioned it. I made a blanket statement about the country's general consensus...not yours or anyone else here. Please take the time to re-read what I wrote.
I understand perfectly what the topic of this thread is. I never said "get over it" or "why are you talking about it". My words were why is this "sin" considered so big when there are other ones and why are people so offended by it.
Annella, you have said many times on this forum not to own something that isn't directed at you personally. I respectfully would like to remind you of those words and urge you to take your own advice.
idk if you thought i was jumping down your throat but i wasn't, just clarifying
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Whoa Whoa! I did not direct my post at anyone personally...nor was it directed at anyone on this forum. It was a generalized statement. Why is it, then, that my throat is being jumped down?
It cannot be denied that in the outside world (not this forum) that gays are discriminated against and are hated. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of any of this.
Annella, why are you bringing racism up with me? I never mentioned it. I made a blanket statement about the country's general consensus...not yours or anyone else here. Please take the time to re-read what I wrote.
I understand perfectly what the topic of this thread is. I never said "get over it" or "why are you talking about it". My words were why is this "sin" considered so big when there are other ones and why are people so offended by it.
Annella, you have said many times on this forum not to own something that isn't directed at you personally. I respectfully would like to remind you of those words and urge you to take your own advice.
idk if you thought i was jumping down your throat but i wasn't, just clarifying
Mackenzie, she was posting back at me....not you hon.
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Whoa Whoa! I did not direct my post at anyone personally...nor was it directed at anyone on this forum. It was a generalized statement. Why is it, then, that my throat is being jumped down?
It cannot be denied that in the outside world (not this forum) that gays are discriminated against and are hated. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of any of this.
Annella, why are you bringing racism up with me? I never mentioned it. I made a blanket statement about the country's general consensus...not yours or anyone else here. Please take the time to re-read what I wrote.
I understand perfectly what the topic of this thread is. I never said "get over it" or "why are you talking about it". My words were why is this "sin" considered so big when there are other ones and why are people so offended by it.
Annella, you have said many times on this forum not to own something that isn't directed at you personally. I respectfully would like to remind you of those words and urge you to take your own advice.
idk if you thought i was jumping down your throat but i wasn't, just clarifying
Mackenzie, she was posting back at me....not you hon.
just wanted to make sure she didnt misunderstand me because i responded to her as well
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I do not hate anyone, this includes gays. I do not hate gays- just to make sure it got across. I do not discriminate against gays. I do not agree with their lifestyle. I do not go around harping on the issue. This is a thread ABOUT gays. That is why I am talking about it. I am on a forum that is meant to discuss things, within that forum I am on a thread about gays, I am discussing it. I do not hate gays. I do not think homosexuality is a higher sin than any other. I never in any way said that. I do NOT think being gay is worse than any other sin- just reiterating. I do think being gay is a choice. I know it cannot be proven otherwise. I never said gay sex affects me personally. It is a topic being discussed on a forum, which is why we are talking about it. CHRISTIANS DO NOT HATE GAYS, OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER.
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The bible doesn't even address the issue of hermaphrodites so it's hard to distinguish God's position about them.
I thought you said the Bible had all the answers? ??? Ah, well, I'm sure some slick creationist website can craft an "answer" to this issue. God and "science", perhaps?
The bible has answers for those who seek a relationship with God. Go ahead and mock the website. In psychology, sarcasm is often noted as insecurity and veiled aggression. So with your continuing comments about that site...it seems a psychologist may say you are threatened by it ;)
Not that the individual themselves sinned but we are all under the curse of sin and live in imperfect bodies
Thanks god. Biblical contradiction #9,782: Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. –Deuteronomy 24:16 and then
He does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. – Exodus 34:7
The Deuteronomy passage is speaking of justice in the Israelites' legal system, saying that the Israelites could not legally punish one man for the sins of another.
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Once our sins are forgiven, God does not hold them against us, but the world does. What we do can have an affect on our children, and their children, etc. Not a contradiction.
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If I voted against a Christian lifestyle, if I preached against a Christian lifestyle, or if I said a Christian lifestyle was 'unnatural', people would yell discrimination against Christians from the rooftops, yet you all keep saying you DO NOT discriminate against gays. Just what do you perceive discrimination as?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.....
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All through this thread, we as Christians have being discriminating, prejudiced, or hate gays, we're not singling out this one sin above any others. I never said you said "get over it". While I'm not jumping down your throat Amy, you alluded to the same things we have been trying to say we are NOT doing.
I alluded to saying you were racist, prejudiced, and hated gays by saying this:
Unless you agree with Kinsey's levels of sexuality, though, no one knows another person's sexuality until that other person is comfortable enough to share it. IMO, though, there is too much concern in this society on what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. People who discriminate against others based on who they prefer to be horizontally naked with? That's ridiculous...whether or not it is believed to be a sin. Like Marie said, there are so many other sins that people conveniently ignore on a day to day basis. Why is this one so big? Why does it offend so many so personally? Its not like they are trying to convert...
It wasn't even directed at you, Annella! You should know I wouldn't accuse you of that. I love and respect you too much for that. You're lumping me into a group with everyone on this thread that has been disagreeing with you...I've even disagreed with others on your behalf and it hurts that out of your frustration you would do this. I guess its true, though, that we hurt the ones we love first, right? In fact...I don't even think I mentioned any religion specifically in this quote of mine. I don't know why, in a response coming from me, you would assume that I was bashing Christianity.
We do NOT hate gays, etc. No matter what we say, it's still not heard. I for one have been applied some pretty nasty titles that have nothing to do with how I actually feel, no matter what I say. They were directed personally. So excuse me if I'd like to set the record straight whenever I see the same being alluded to again.
if I misinterpreted what you were trying to imply in your post, then apology offered. However, we have diligently been trying to separate what we actually feel as Christians and are forever "lumped" into the discriminatory side of things....this is not true, but all through this thread it's been so accordingly. If you were implying this to those outside this forum.....your original post did not signify the difference.
I haven't accused anyone on this forum of hating gays in this response. I've heard you. I even made a concentrated effort to label homosexuality as a sin when I don't believe it is. I know you've been applied some nasty titles...I remember...remember me defending you? I am sorry if you think my words were intended to be an attack to you or anyone else on this forum; they weren't. I try my hardest to be careful with what I type, but I guess I made a mistake. Please forgive me.
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If I voted against a Christian lifestyle, if I preached against a Christian lifestyle, or if I said a Christian lifestyle was 'unnatural', people would yell discrimination against Christians from the rooftops, yet you all keep saying you DO NOT discriminate against gays. Just what do you perceive discrimination as?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.....
If you spoke against Christianity on a forum titled -- Christianity, what do you think? that's not discrimination? If I was yelling all my opinions at gays in the street it would be one thing, answering to a post on a forum is totally another. Either way we're not discriminating against it just saying we feel it is wrong.
Most Christians on here don't get mad when yall say yall disagree with our lifestyle, just when we are told how utterly silly and insane we are, I haven't seen someone tell a gay person he is anyone of these things. Just simply, I disagree.
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If I voted against a Christian lifestyle, if I preached against a Christian lifestyle, or if I said a Christian lifestyle was 'unnatural', people would yell discrimination against Christians from the rooftops, yet you all keep saying you DO NOT discriminate against gays. Just what do you perceive discrimination as?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.....
If you spoke against Christianity on a forum titled -- Christianity, what do you think? that's not discrimination? If I was yelling all my opinions at gays in the street it would be one thing, answering to a post on a forum is totally another. Either way we're not discriminating against it just saying we feel it is wrong.
Most Christians on here don't get mad when yall say yall disagree with our lifestyle, just when we are told how utterly silly and insane we are, I haven't seen someone tell a gay person he is anyone of these things. Just simply, I disagree.
??? That is one of the weakest rebuttals I have seen. You are in NO way being held back in this country from practicing your lifestyle and /or living your life in the way YOU choose to.
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All through this thread, we as Christians have being discriminating, prejudiced, or hate gays, we're not singling out this one sin above any others. I never said you said "get over it". While I'm not jumping down your throat Amy, you alluded to the same things we have been trying to say we are NOT doing.
I alluded to saying you were racist, prejudiced, and hated gays by saying this:
Unless you agree with Kinsey's levels of sexuality, though, no one knows another person's sexuality until that other person is comfortable enough to share it. IMO, though, there is too much concern in this society on what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. People who discriminate against others based on who they prefer to be horizontally naked with? That's ridiculous...whether or not it is believed to be a sin. Like Marie said, there are so many other sins that people conveniently ignore on a day to day basis. Why is this one so big? Why does it offend so many so personally? Its not like they are trying to convert...
It wasn't even directed at you, Annella! You should know I wouldn't accuse you of that. I love and respect you too much for that. You're lumping me into a group with everyone on this thread that has been disagreeing with you...I've even disagreed with others on your behalf and it hurts that out of your frustration you would do this. I guess its true, though, that we hurt the ones we love first, right? In fact...I don't even think I mentioned any religion specifically in this quote of mine. I don't know why, in a response coming from me, you would assume that I was bashing Christianity.
We do NOT hate gays, etc. No matter what we say, it's still not heard. I for one have been applied some pretty nasty titles that have nothing to do with how I actually feel, no matter what I say. They were directed personally. So excuse me if I'd like to set the record straight whenever I see the same being alluded to again.
if I misinterpreted what you were trying to imply in your post, then apology offered. However, we have diligently been trying to separate what we actually feel as Christians and are forever "lumped" into the discriminatory side of things....this is not true, but all through this thread it's been so accordingly. If you were implying this to those outside this forum.....your original post did not signify the difference.
I haven't accused anyone on this forum of hating gays in this response. I've heard you. I even made a concentrated effort to label homosexuality as a sin when I don't believe it is. I know you've been applied some nasty titles...I remember...remember me defending you? I am sorry if you think my words were intended to be an attack to you or anyone else on this forum; they weren't. I try my hardest to be careful with what I type, but I guess I made a mistake. Please forgive me.
No please forgive me. :heart: I must have misunderstood. I did not mean to hurt you. I am frustrated with all that we have been accused of, when we have clarified time after time what we actually are saying. Now excuse me while I go answer this question again.
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If I voted against a Christian lifestyle, if I preached against a Christian lifestyle, or if I said a Christian lifestyle was 'unnatural', people would yell discrimination against Christians from the rooftops, yet you all keep saying you DO NOT discriminate against gays. Just what do you perceive discrimination as?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.....
I would like to set something straight regarding myself and several Christians on these forums. First, ALL Christians are not the same type of Christians: some are reserved, some are critical, some are merciful, some are nonjudgmental, etc. It's a real shame that it APPEARS to us on here that ALL Christians are being lumped together as a "delusional, looney-bin, crazy, stupid" group. That is wrong. I, for one, and some others on here, are not lumping ALL non-believers into an ATHEIST group only. That's ridiculous, too.
Saying that, I wish to re-say what I've said once on here (and have seen others write), that I do NOT, dislike gays, do NOT harass them, and do NOT judge them. It does talk in God's Word about disapproval on His end, but it doesn't mean He still does not love them. I am not the judge in life, unless I want to be judged in my life of things that may not be approved of. I have gay friends that are just as nice and sweet as they can be, even have a couple who are renters in our other house we own. They are clean and neat, respectful, and are wonderful house decorators. I may not believe in their lifestyle but there are things they may not like in my lifestyle, either. But we give each other the respect and friendship we have right now. Where is the discrimination in this? Huh???????
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The bible doesn't even address the issue of hermaphrodites so it's hard to distinguish God's position about them.
I thought you said the Bible had all the answers? ??? Ah, well, I'm sure some slick creationist website can craft an "answer" to this issue. God and "science", perhaps?
Not that the individual themselves sinned but we are all under the curse of sin and live in imperfect bodies
Thanks god. Biblical contradiction #9,782: Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. –Deuteronomy 24:16 and then
He does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. – Exodus 34:7
Just in case anyone is interested in checking into this further: http://www.gotquestions.org/hermaphrodites.html
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If I voted against a Christian lifestyle, if I preached against a Christian lifestyle, or if I said a Christian lifestyle was 'unnatural', people would yell discrimination against Christians from the rooftops, yet you all keep saying you DO NOT discriminate against gays. Just what do you perceive discrimination as?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.....
Christians have been discriminated against in the past and have died for their beliefs. In some countries they still are! We as Christians must adhere to God and His Word as we live our life by that Word. Regardless if it's contrary to popular opinion or not. This includes what the Bible calls sin......ANY sin.
If a gay person comes into our assembly, nobody better mistreat them or they have me to answer to. Do I wait until a gay person walks into church, and then "blast" them from the pulpit? Absolutely not. Do I preach against it? Absolutely! In our own gatherings with our own members. Or I'm teaching on it through a Bible Study. Do I go out on the street corner and start gay bashing......no. Even when I'm addressing it in the church, it's done with warning for our own people. Wisdom is always use for the appropriate venue or audience.
I was accused on this thread of not knowing any gay people at all. If you only knew. The man who stayed in my house while I was gone used to be gay, and I knew him then. The only reason I didn't mention him is that someone on this forum knows his name, and his past lifestyle is just that.....past, and I didn't want to reveal anything about him without his consent. It's a Ministerial Confidentiality situation. He has since told me I could reveal the fact he stayed at my home. He's been following this forum pretty closely.
I have people in my life that are still in the gay lifestyle. Are they friends? Well, if I'm in Starbucks, and they walk in, and I ask them to come over to visit with me, and we spend 2 hours talking and laughing....what would you call it? Not just once either. Lunch, dinner, and all kinds of social situations.
Discrimination would be "shunning' them, or treating that they are inferior to us......ubsurd! We don't do that. Being in disagreement to a lifestyle and discrimination are 2 different and separate things.
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It's a real shame that it APPEARS to us on here that ALL Christians are being lumped together as a "delusional, looney-bin, crazy, stupid" group.
I have never used any of those words, just for the record. Perhaps I should have qualified "you" as Christians and not just those in these forums. As for the rest of what you wrote, jcribb, I keep seeing the same thing over and over and I DO understand what you are saying. However, I cannot get around the thinking that by you collectively justifying your stance because of [any and all] religion and what is written in the bible, you are NOT holding a large number of people back from living their lives. That is how I feel and how I see it.
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If I voted against a Christian lifestyle, if I preached against a Christian lifestyle, or if I said a Christian lifestyle was 'unnatural', people would yell discrimination against Christians from the rooftops, yet you all keep saying you DO NOT discriminate against gays. Just what do you perceive discrimination as?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.....
If you spoke against Christianity on a forum titled -- Christianity, what do you think? that's not discrimination? If I was yelling all my opinions at gays in the street it would be one thing, answering to a post on a forum is totally another. Either way we're not discriminating against it just saying we feel it is wrong.
Most Christians on here don't get mad when yall say yall disagree with our lifestyle, just when we are told how utterly silly and insane we are, I haven't seen someone tell a gay person he is anyone of these things. Just simply, I disagree.
??? That is one of the weakest rebuttals I have seen. You are in NO way being held back in this country from practicing your lifestyle and /or living your life in the way YOU choose to.
You asked if I discriminated against gays and I do not. I not saying no one does.
Then you asked how I would feel if my Christianity was repeatedly discriminated against. I responded using the way I and other Christians I have been treated on this forum as an example. None of us are screaming about you all dsicriminating against us, but when homosexuality is talked about in the same light everyone calls it discrimination. It really doesn't matter how many times I say it the point will never be heard, there is a difference in disagreeing and discriminating.
People have the right to think Christianity is wrong. People have the right to think homosexuality is wrong.
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If I voted against a Christian lifestyle, if I preached against a Christian lifestyle, or if I said a Christian lifestyle was 'unnatural', people would yell discrimination against Christians from the rooftops, yet you all keep saying you DO NOT discriminate against gays. Just what do you perceive discrimination as?! Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.....
Christians have been discriminated against in the past and have died for their beliefs. In some countries they still are! We as Christians must adhere to God and His Word as we live our life by that Word. Regardless if it's contrary to popular opinion or not. This includes what the Bible calls sin......ANY sin.
If a gay person comes into our assembly, nobody better mistreat them or they have me to answer to. Do I wait until a gay person walks into church, and then "blast" them from the pulpit? Absolutely not. Do I preach against it? Absolutely! In our own gatherings with our own members. Or I'm teaching on it through a Bible Study. Do I go out on the street corner and start gay bashing......no. Even when I'm addressing it in the church, it's done with warning for our own people. Wisdom is always use for the appropriate venue or audience.
I was accused on this thread of not knowing any gay people at all. If you only knew. The man who stayed in my house while I was gone used to be gay, and I knew him then. The only reason I didn't mention him is that someone on this forum knows his name, and his past lifestyle is just that.....past, and I didn't want to reveal anything about him without his consent. It's a Ministerial Confidentiality situation. He has since told me I could reveal the fact he stayed at my home. He's been following this forum pretty closely.
I have people in my life that are still in the gay lifestyle. Are they friends? Well, if I'm in Starbucks, and they walk in, and I ask them to come over to visit with me, and we spend 2 hours talking and laughing....what would you call it? Not just once either. Lunch, dinner, and all kinds of social situations.
Discrimination would be "shunning' them, or treating that they are inferior to us......ubsurd! We don't do that. Being in disagreement to a lifestyle and discrimination are 2 different and separate things.
That is the point I've been trying to make! Well said. I simply could not get the right words into the right order.
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It's a real shame that it APPEARS to us on here that ALL Christians are being lumped together as a "delusional, looney-bin, crazy, stupid" group.
I have never used any of those words, just for the record. Perhaps I should have qualified "you" as Christians and not just those in these forums. As for the rest of what you wrote, jcribb, I keep seeing the same thing over and over and I DO understand what you are saying. However, I cannot get around the thinking that by you collectively justifying your stance because of [any and all] religion and what is written in the bible, you are NOT holding a large number of people back from living their lives. That is how I feel and how I see it.
jordandog, I did put those words in quotes because they came from this forum. I would like to acknowledge to those reading this thread that those words do NOT apply to anything you have said. There are 2 or 3 others on here who speak these words freely without respect, so in my irritability, I failed to mention that those words do NOT include you. Thank you for calling me on it and please accept my apology.
Also, I must be knocked out by my meds right now, enough, that I'm not quite getting what you are saying in your last 2 sentences. Please overlook my dumbness and clear the cobwebs for me, ok? Are we good? :sad1:
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Maybe I should say something here that you may/may not understand. Because I'm in a position of Ministerial authority and teach others, I will give account of the Word and how I taught it. I'm very careful not to "water down" the Gospel. I must live my life according to the Word of God and what it literally says, as it tells me I'll be judged by it. I also must teach others out of that Word without compromise or favor to any group or individual who would go against the teachings set down for us in that Word. I teach many other things besides what is being discussed here. MANY other things. It is either accepted or rejected. It always come down to that.
Sometimes, even we as Christians have been so brow beat for our beliefs that we are so careful not to offend even when we know it will not matter what we say....it will offend. We can say it in a hundred different ways, and it still will not be accepted. Our words are taken, twisted, added to, taken from, etc. To make us look intolerant. Since you are not Christian nor believe in Christianity or the Love and Power of God, you won't understand how we can love gays, but not their lifestyle. It's impossible to explain because you don't fathom the possibility of this, although every Christian understands this perfectly. It's an impasse.
So.....after saying all of that.....all sides have presented their sides. We won't convince each other that they are wrong or right, because we all have free choice. I was blasted because I called homosexuality a sin. Do I change my stand..NO! I will always say it is. Love me, hate me, that's it.
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Go ahead and mock the website. In psychology, sarcasm is often noted as insecurity and veiled aggression. So with your continuing comments about that site...it seems a psychologist may say you are threatened by it ;)
And I can get inside your head one step further -- I myself have mentioned psychology in reference to people's intentions a few times. I think you read it and subconsciously adopted that tactic because you thought it was clever. ;D
In any event, sometimes sarcasm is just sarcasm. It's how intelligent people joke.
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The bible has answers for those who seek a relationship with God. Go ahead and mock the website. In psychology, sarcasm is often noted as insecurity and veiled aggression. So with your continuing comments about that site...it seems a psychologist may say you are threatened by it
The sites flaw is in the name. Sure it talks of legitimate science and without a doubt it has defensive responses to all arguments against christianity, but it has this blatant and obvious massive agenda all over the tabs on the left that it's hardly a source to be taken seriously. Instead of actually using scientific method, it applies god to...well...everything. God is something there is no measurable proof for, and thus applying god to science makes this site broken from the get-go. All it can do is poke holes in science with nothing to add to their side but faith in one defined deity among all of the others. It is still stricken with the burden of proof no matter how many arguments it makes and really is a moot base when arguing for christianity against people that don't believe in that one certain emotional deity.
I was blasted because I called homosexuality a sin. Do I change my stand..NO!
It may be a sin, but it isn't wrong. It's just a sin due to religious beliefs and nothing more. Any non-christian homosexual can feel at ease because they're only wrong in the eyes of one deity among thousands. Above that, there's nothing wrong with it. Though abnormal, it's completely natural.
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I was blasted because I called homosexuality a sin. Do I change my stand..NO!
It may be a sin, but it isn't wrong. It's just a sin due to religious beliefs and nothing more. Any non-christian homosexual can feel at ease because they're only wrong in the eyes of one deity among thousands. Above that, there's nothing wrong with it. Though abnormal, it's completely natural.
Uh, if it's a sin....it's wrong. Do you know the definition of sin? Look it up in Webster's and we'll leave the Bible interpretation out of it. Abnormal, but completely natural? Your contradicting yourself on so many levels. One Deity among thousands? How do you keep track of them all.....sounds confusing.
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Go ahead and mock the website. In psychology, sarcasm is often noted as insecurity and veiled aggression. So with your continuing comments about that site...it seems a psychologist may say you are threatened by it ;)
And I can get inside your head one step further -- I myself have mentioned psychology in reference to people's intentions a few times. I think you read it and subconsciously adopted that tactic because you thought it was clever. ;D
In any event, sometimes sarcasm is just sarcasm. It's how intelligent people joke.
Lol, I have studied psychology in college courses so I don't need to subconsciously adopt your tactics, as if I need to borrow from your posts in order to make an intelligent and informed statement :bootyshake:
Also, Simone Shamay-Tsoory, a neurologist says that a knack for sarcasm isn't necessarily linked to intelligence. And, you have already made known your contempt and lack of respect for the information on that website, so it is not merely sarcastic humor but aggressive humor in stating the opposite of what you think is fact. Also it is a form of social control in which you are trying to validate with sarcasm, what is acceptable and what isn't.
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The sites flaw is in the name. Sure it talks of legitimate science and without a doubt it has defensive responses to all arguments against christianity, but it has this blatant and obvious massive agenda all over the tabs on the left that it's hardly a source to be taken seriously. Instead of actually using scientific method, it applies god to...well...everything. God is something there is no measurable proof for, and thus applying god to science makes this site broken from the get-go. All it can do is poke holes in science with nothing to add to their side but faith in one defined deity among all of the others. It is still stricken with the burden of proof no matter how many arguments it makes and really is a moot base when arguing for christianity against people that don't believe in that one certain emotional deity.
The site ISN'T broken, you are just CLOSED MINDED
If I said I refuse to take seriously anything that starts out with, and is obviously making a definitive statement, that God does not exist; I am called closed minded, I am called intellectually dishonest.....can you say hypocrite? :P
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Uh, if it's a sin....it's wrong. Do you know the definition of sin?
Sin, in religion, is the concept of acts that violate a known moral rule. The term sin may also refer to the state of having committed such a violation. Commonly, the moral code of conduct is decreed by a divine entity, i.e. divine law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin
Sin- 1.) transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam
2.) any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sin
If we're talking religion, you're completely right of it being a sin. I've already stated this. If we're talking ethics and moral conduct, no. It's not wrong because of the facts stated all over this thread.
Abnormal, but completely natural? Your contradicting yourself on so many levels.
Am I? Abnormalities are found all throughout nature. They're still natural because even though they aren't seen much, they still fall within natural means and they have always been seen throughout time. Abnormal is like having 50 guitarists and 1 drummer. In that crowd, the drummer is the abnormal variable since he does not have a guitar. This probably isn't the best example, but I'm sure you get it. Unnatural is like a squirrel giving birth to a robot. For more info, check out a decent rational answer here-
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080617063631AADJBxI
One Deity among thousands? How do you keep track of them all.....sounds confusing.
You're completely right! There's thousands! And if we're talking Hindus, there's millions! Check it out! There's actually some really cool concepts out there.
The site ISN'T broken, you are just CLOSED MINDED
The site has no scientific evidence of your own personal deity. Like I said, it just pokes holes in current scientific reasoning and capitalizes on the bible. And yet the banner up top says "Evidence for God". To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses (wiki). There is nothing of this with your personal deity because there is nothing there; especially since this deity is conveniently deemed in the supernatural world. I rest on Jordans words- "A god of the gaps".
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Maybe I should say something here that you may/may not understand. Because I'm in a position of Ministerial authority and teach others, I will give account of the Word and how I taught it. I'm very careful not to "water down" the Gospel. I must live my life according to the Word of God and what it literally says, as it tells me I'll be judged by it. I also must teach others out of that Word without compromise or favor to any group or individual who would go against the teachings set down for us in that Word. I teach many other things besides what is being discussed here. MANY other things. It is either accepted or rejected. It always come down to that.
Sometimes, even we as Christians have been so brow beat for our beliefs that we are so careful not to offend even when we know it will not matter what we say....it will offend. We can say it in a hundred different ways, and it still will not be accepted. Our words are taken, twisted, added to, taken from, etc. To make us look intolerant. Since you are not Christian nor believe in Christianity or the Love and Power of God, you won't understand how we can love gays, but not their lifestyle. It's impossible to explain because you don't fathom the possibility of this, although every Christian understands this perfectly. It's an impasse.
So.....after saying all of that.....all sides have presented their sides. We won't convince each other that they are wrong or right, because we all have free choice. I was blasted because I called homosexuality a sin. Do I change my stand..NO! I will always say it is. Love me, hate me, that's it.
Well spoken!!! And if they continue to argue your stance that's their fault for not agreeing to disagree like adults. We don't have to change our beliefs to suit one another, we can just DISAGREE.
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The site has no scientific evidence of your own personal deity. Like I said, it just pokes holes in current scientific reasoning and capitalizes on the bible. And yet the banner up top says "Evidence for God". To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses (wiki). There is nothing of this with your personal deity because there is nothing there; especially since this deity is conveniently deemed in the supernatural world. I rest on Jordans words- "A god of the gaps".
There are three major areas that have been posited to provide evidence for the existence of God. Thomas Aquinas, argued in favor of the existence of God on the basis of fundamental aspects of the universe such as causality and change. William Paley argued that the hand of God is evident in the apparent design of the universe and living beings. The third line of evidence argues that God makes Himself evident in personal transcendent experiences of people. Of these three lines of evidence, science has eliminated none, although many would argue that the evidence for biological evolution has weakened the argument for the design of living organisms. Even so, there are numerous gaps in evolution - many of which have appeared recently.
Many skeptics believe that all arguments for the existence of God fall into the God of the gaps variety. According to this premise, one would expect these arguments to become fewer in number as scientists make more discoveries and learn more about our world. In reality, evidence continues to accumulate suggesting that the universe was designed by an intelligent agent. The evidence suggesting that the universe and its physical laws were designed continues to accumulate at a rapid rate.
If evidence for the existence of God were truly a God of the gaps type, we would expect these gaps to be disappearing, instead of increasing in number. The evidence is so strong that long-time promoter of atheism, Antony Flew announced in 2004 that he had become a deist because he "had to go where the evidence leads."
It gives PLENTY of evidence.
From OBSERVING that everything in this world that contains information, was created by a form of intelligence, gives a person reasonable and logical conclusions that the very essence of life "DNA" containing VAST amounts of complicated information in every single cell in the human body, that an intelligence created life. LIFE is evidence for God, no mechanism for evolution can be found to have the ability to create information. THEREFORE, adding information to DNA coding to evolve from one species to another is found to be IMPOSSIBLE. Life being spontaneously created in a soup from chemicals is IMPOSSIBLE.
The design position IS falsifiable, since advocates of naturalism could discover a natural process capable of creating the necessary information if such a process exists. If Neo-Darwinism were true as a general theory of biological creation, it would falsify the claim that some additional information-creating mechanism is necessary. The "design is religion, not science" position is not falsifiable because it decides the disputed question by the manipulation of words rather than by empirical investigation. Hence, by the standard of falsifiability the intelligent design hypothesis is scientific, and the refusal to consider it on its merits is unscientific. quote by me from another thread.
Again, refusing to look at evidence because the presenter of the evidence infers God, is closed minded. You can deny it and you can try and justify yourself all you want but your actions and you words show that you have no interest in considering an alternative. You are the definition of closed minded.
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The site has no scientific evidence of your own personal deity. Like I said, it just pokes holes in current scientific reasoning and capitalizes on the bible. And yet the banner up top says "Evidence for God". To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses (wiki). There is nothing of this with your personal deity because there is nothing there; especially since this deity is conveniently deemed in the supernatural world. I rest on Jordans words- "A god of the gaps".
There are three major areas that have been posited to provide evidence for the existence of God. Thomas Aquinas, argued in favor of the existence of God on the basis of fundamental aspects of the universe such as causality and change. William Paley argued that the hand of God is evident in the apparent design of the universe and living beings. The third line of evidence argues that God makes Himself evident in personal transcendent experiences of people. Of these three lines of evidence, science has eliminated none, although many would argue that the evidence for biological evolution has weakened the argument for the design of living organisms. Even so, there are numerous gaps in evolution - many of which have appeared recently.
Many skeptics believe that all arguments for the existence of God fall into the God of the gaps variety. According to this premise, one would expect these arguments to become fewer in number as scientists make more discoveries and learn more about our world. In reality, evidence continues to accumulate suggesting that the universe was designed by an intelligent agent. The evidence suggesting that the universe and its physical laws were designed continues to accumulate at a rapid rate.
If evidence for the existence of God were truly a God of the gaps type, we would expect these gaps to be disappearing, instead of increasing in number. The evidence is so strong that long-time promoter of atheism, Antony Flew announced in 2004 that he had become a deist because he "had to go where the evidence leads."
It gives PLENTY of evidence.
From OBSERVING that everything in this world that contains information, was created by a form of intelligence, gives a person reasonable and logical conclusions that the very essence of life "DNA" containing VAST amounts of complicated information in every single cell in the human body, that an intelligence created life. LIFE is evidence for God, no mechanism for evolution can be found to have the ability to create information. THEREFORE, adding information to DNA coding to evolve from one species to another is found to be IMPOSSIBLE. Life being spontaneously created in a soup from chemicals is IMPOSSIBLE.
The design position IS falsifiable, since advocates of naturalism could discover a natural process capable of creating the necessary information if such a process exists. If Neo-Darwinism were true as a general theory of biological creation, it would falsify the claim that some additional information-creating mechanism is necessary. The "design is religion, not science" position is not falsifiable because it decides the disputed question by the manipulation of words rather than by empirical investigation. Hence, by the standard of falsifiability the intelligent design hypothesis is scientific, and the refusal to consider it on its merits is unscientific. quote by me from another thread.
Again, refusing to look at evidence because the presenter of the evidence infers God, is closed minded. You can deny it and you can try and justify yourself all you want but your actions and you words show that you have no interest in considering an alternative. You are the definition of closed minded.
Wow Sherene....you should teach. What an excellent post!
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Even so, there are numerous gaps in evolution - many of which have appeared recently.
Again, this is a good thing for science to acknowledge. But asserting your personal deity to this is obviously still a god of the gaps.
In reality, evidence continues to accumulate suggesting that the universe was designed by an intelligent agent. The evidence suggesting that the universe and its physical laws were designed continues to accumulate at a rapid rate.
Of course as more is found out the universe, the more problems and gaps there are. And thus asserting your personal deity created it all falls within the god of the gaps idea. We're going in downward circles here. This has happened throughout history with us and nature and putting religion into the mix has a history of being falsified.
From OBSERVING that everything in this world that contains information, was created by a form of intelligence, gives a person reasonable and logical conclusions that the very essence of life "DNA" containing VAST amounts of complicated information in every single cell in the human body, that an intelligence created life.
This logic and reason says extra-terrestrial beings could have done it as well.
Again, refusing to look at evidence because the presenter of the evidence infers God, is closed minded.
Not GOD. YOUR GOD! How many times do I have to state this? Yahweh. Not the concept of a deity. Just Yahweh. Your personal emotional genocidal jealous man-in-Guam defined deity who loves us all among thousands of other deities all with differences. Asserting Yahweh did it is not ID by definition. No matter what loop hole you try to make, making room for Yahweh within ID (other than speculatively) is not ID. So ultmately you will be pushing a religious agenda unless you refuse Yahweh into the mixture.
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Yahweh:
http://www.hisnameisyahweh.org/
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This logic and reason says extra-terrestrial beings could have done it as well.
Not unless you are willing to say that these extra-terrestrial beings are eternal beings. The buck has to stop at something that itself was not created and has the capability to create life "from scratch".
Asserting Yahweh did it is not ID by definition.
You are correct about that. However, this is why ID is so vehemently rejected as scientific theory because if it is even considered then religion once again has a legitimate place to say God did it. ID says, intelligence did it, and scientists know that when that is accepted as a possibility, there is NO other logical explanation than God.
I personally AM saying it was God. I believe in Intelligent Design and that God is that designer.
The website I link to most often defends God and presents legitimate evidence. You can refuse it all you want. You have a choice to do so. It is just plainly obvious that you are closed minded about considering God to be Creator. That won't stop me from using it to present my side, so get used to it. :wave:
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Yahweh:
http://www.hisnameisyahweh.org/
Thanks for that Jcribb! Very interesting!
I watched a video awhile back that was talking about the name Yahweh. It is essentially 4 letters in Hebrew Y.H.v.H and in Hebrew is pronounced Yah Hay Vav Hay. Ancient rabbis believed that these letters were essentially the sound of breathing. They believed they were unpronounceable. He raises the question, is God's name the sound of breathing? He talks about how God breathed life into Adam and that same breath is in every human being. How in the bible the word breath is the same word for spirit
He talks about how the first thing a baby must do to make it is breathe? or say the name of God? When you die, you take your last breath? Or when you can no longer say the name of God, you die? When a person who doesn't believe in God is saying "There is no God", do we hear Yad Hay Vav Hay with every breath they take to make that statement?
It's an amazing video. Check it out! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REkFU4X5HXs
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Yahweh:
http://www.hisnameisyahweh.org/
Thanks for that Jcribb! Very interesting!
I watched a video awhile back that was talking about the name Yahweh. It is essentially 4 letters in Hebrew Y.H.v.H and in Hebrew is pronounced Yah Hay Vav Hay. Ancient rabbis believed that these letters were essentially the sound of breathing. They believed they were unpronounceable. He raises the question, is God's name the sound of breathing? He talks about how God breathed life into Adam and that same breath is in every human being. How in the bible the word breath is the same word for spirit
He talks about how the first thing a baby must do to make it is breathe? or say the name of God? When you die, you take your last breath? Or when you can no longer say the name of God, you die? When a person who doesn't believe in God is saying "There is no God", do we hear Yad Hay Vav Hay with every breath they take to make that statement?
It's an amazing video. Check it out! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REkFU4X5HXs
Thanks, Sherna! I have never really heard this before. It's something to think about!
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Yahweh:
http://www.hisnameisyahweh.org/
Thanks for that Jcribb! Very interesting!
I watched a video awhile back that was talking about the name Yahweh. It is essentially 4 letters in Hebrew Y.H.v.H and in Hebrew is pronounced Yah Hay Vav Hay. Ancient rabbis believed that these letters were essentially the sound of breathing. They believed they were unpronounceable. He raises the question, is God's name the sound of breathing? He talks about how God breathed life into Adam and that same breath is in every human being. How in the bible the word breath is the same word for spirit
He talks about how the first thing a baby must do to make it is breathe? or say the name of God? When you die, you take your last breath? Or when you can no longer say the name of God, you die? When a person who doesn't believe in God is saying "There is no God", do we hear Yad Hay Vav Hay with every breath they take to make that statement?
It's an amazing video. Check it out! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REkFU4X5HXs
Wow! I'm going to use this. Interesting to say the least.
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The website I link to most often defends God and presents legitimate evidence. You can refuse it all you want. You have a choice to do so. It is just plainly obvious that you are closed minded about considering God to be Creator. That won't stop me from using it to present my side, so get used to it.
So I'm the one who acknowledges the possibility of a deity or deities....but because I don't believe in your one defined and popular deity among thousands of others, I'm the closed minded one. Okay. Got it.
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The website I link to most often defends God and presents legitimate evidence. You can refuse it all you want. You have a choice to do so. It is just plainly obvious that you are closed minded about considering God to be Creator. That won't stop me from using it to present my side, so get used to it.
So I'm the one who acknowledges the possibility of a deity or deities....but because I don't believe in your one defined and popular deity among thousands of others, I'm the closed minded one. Okay. Got it.
Absolutely not, considering there is a God would include not bashing Christianity though and regarding it as a possibility.
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I think I understand what you are thinking so I will go into further detail..
At four years old...I would think you are not sexually active or have a preference with sex. You are still innocent and are not thinking in sexual ways. When children start to explore their sexuality, take notice....they will either go for the same sex or opposite and maybe both...since they dont think in terms of sin or people hating gay people, children are very honest.
You will see it and maybe not. If you have children, set up a hidden camera at sleepovers...you might just be surprised. ;)
honestly even the thought of setting up a camera to watch kids "explore their sexuality" just sounds extremely creepy
secondly, by the time we get to an age where we would EXPLORE our sexuality we know the difference between right and wrong
people dont always explore both and that's a fact
they choose to in some cases however
Well I was five or six when I started to explore my sexuality...I bet you young kids besides me and my girlfriends did it then. It may seem creepy but if you're not a pervert then you wont see anything but your child oh, what if she is being molested or hurt by her friend but too scared to tell. I always think a hidden camera is good for children not yet teens. Since children don't tell you everything.
wow
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Absolutely not, considering there is a God would include not bashing Christianity though and regarding it as a possibility.
Look at the thread title and think about why I would "bash christianity". Pretty much it's not necessarily the god, but more of what some of the questional beliefs entail.
wow
.....yyyyeeeaaaahhhh. This is why I don't bother with her.
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I think I understand what you are thinking so I will go into further detail..
At four years old...I would think you are not sexually active or have a preference with sex. You are still innocent and are not thinking in sexual ways. When children start to explore their sexuality, take notice....they will either go for the same sex or opposite and maybe both...since they dont think in terms of sin or people hating gay people, children are very honest.
You will see it and maybe not. If you have children, set up a hidden camera at sleepovers...you might just be surprised. ;)
honestly even the thought of setting up a camera to watch kids "explore their sexuality" just sounds extremely creepy
secondly, by the time we get to an age where we would EXPLORE our sexuality we know the difference between right and wrong
people dont always explore both and that's a fact
they choose to in some cases however
Well I was five or six when I started to explore my sexuality...I bet you young kids besides me and my girlfriends did it then. It may seem creepy but if you're not a pervert then you wont see anything but your child oh, what if she is being molested or hurt by her friend but too scared to tell. I always think a hidden camera is good for children not yet teens. Since children don't tell you everything.
wow
My main arguement is if you set up a hidden camera you would see kids getting gay and it isn't a choice thing because they most likely think there is nothing wrong with being gay.
total assumption
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I think I understand what you are thinking so I will go into further detail..
At four years old...I would think you are not sexually active or have a preference with sex. You are still innocent and are not thinking in sexual ways. When children start to explore their sexuality, take notice....they will either go for the same sex or opposite and maybe both...since they dont think in terms of sin or people hating gay people, children are very honest.
You will see it and maybe not. If you have children, set up a hidden camera at sleepovers...you might just be surprised. ;)
honestly even the thought of setting up a camera to watch kids "explore their sexuality" just sounds extremely creepy
secondly, by the time we get to an age where we would EXPLORE our sexuality we know the difference between right and wrong
people dont always explore both and that's a fact
they choose to in some cases however
Well I was five or six when I started to explore my sexuality...I bet you young kids besides me and my girlfriends did it then. It may seem creepy but if you're not a pervert then you wont see anything but your child oh, what if she is being molested or hurt by her friend but too scared to tell. I always think a hidden camera is good for children not yet teens. Since children don't tell you everything.
wow
My main arguement is if you set up a hidden camera you would see kids getting gay and it isn't a choice thing because they most likely think there is nothing wrong with being gay.
total assumption
No it is from personal experience.
just because you tried out gay things doesn't mean everyone did, I sure as hell didn't
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I think I understand what you are thinking so I will go into further detail..
At four years old...I would think you are not sexually active or have a preference with sex. You are still innocent and are not thinking in sexual ways. When children start to explore their sexuality, take notice....they will either go for the same sex or opposite and maybe both...since they dont think in terms of sin or people hating gay people, children are very honest.
You will see it and maybe not. If you have children, set up a hidden camera at sleepovers...you might just be surprised. ;)
honestly even the thought of setting up a camera to watch kids "explore their sexuality" just sounds extremely creepy
secondly, by the time we get to an age where we would EXPLORE our sexuality we know the difference between right and wrong
people dont always explore both and that's a fact
they choose to in some cases however
Well I was five or six when I started to explore my sexuality...I bet you young kids besides me and my girlfriends did it then. It may seem creepy but if you're not a pervert then you wont see anything but your child oh, what if she is being molested or hurt by her friend but too scared to tell. I always think a hidden camera is good for children not yet teens. Since children don't tell you everything.
wow
My main arguement is if you set up a hidden camera you would see kids getting gay and it isn't a choice thing because they most likely think there is nothing wrong with being gay.
total assumption
No it is from personal experience.
just because you tried out gay things doesn't mean everyone did, I sure as hell didn't
Nope, here neither. Marieelissa, a public forum isn't anywhere to divulge that kind of personal information. I mean....really.
Time for me to go take a survey if I can qualify.
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just because you tried out gay things doesn't mean everyone did, I sure as hell didn't
I never said everyone did but what I did say is that I didn't choose to be bi, it was natural.
so you're bi?
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Nope, here neither. Marieelissa, a public forum isn't anywhere to divulge that kind of personal information. I mean....really.
Time for me to go take a survey if I can qualify.
What that when I was five or six, I liked little girls and would kiss them and we would touch? Anyone with common sense knows what homosexuals do in the bedroom. Or only when someone spells it out for you do you get it? I am not gay but like I said, I was a kid and it was NOT a choice, it was NATURAL.
Do what you got to do, I am just showing you, I was a child and didn't make a LIFESTYLE choice. It was a natural attraction.
Either way I'd like you to know that it was not at ALL normal for me and my friends, boy or girl, to touch one another in that way. Also, it was too much information for you to let me know that. I also find it a bit uncomfortable that you think that is normal, that all kids do it, and that it would be ok to set up a camera to film it.
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just because you tried out gay things doesn't mean everyone did, I sure as hell didn't
I never said everyone did but what I did say is that I didn't choose to be bi, it was natural.
so you're bi?
No but even if I was, who gives a crap, it's not a big deal. There is much worse "crimes" being committed! I am with a Black Guy, Does that make me a bad person? :icon_rr:
Just wondering to try to confirm what point you're trying to make. && no one brought up race but you, so once again naw no need to put words in my mouth. AND once again-- if you wanna talk about other "crimes" get off the homosexuality thread.
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Nope, here neither. Marieelissa, a public forum isn't anywhere to divulge that kind of personal information. I mean....really.
Time for me to go take a survey if I can qualify.
What that when I was five or six, I liked little girls and would kiss them and we would touch? Anyone with common sense knows what homosexuals do in the bedroom. Or only when someone spells it out for you do you get it? I am not gay but like I said, I was a kid and it was NOT a choice, it was NATURAL.
Do what you got to do, I am just showing you, I was a child and didn't make a LIFESTYLE choice. It was a natural attraction.
Either way I'd like you to know that it was not at ALL normal for me and my friends, boy or girl, to touch one another in that way. Also, it was too much information for you to let me know that. I also find it a bit uncomfortable that you think that is normal, that all kids do it, and that it would be ok to set up a camera to film it.
Well you seem to think kids don't so I would think you would find nothing going on but them playing board games and eating popcorn ;)
Oh ;) is that so? I don't think I'll ever be placing a camera to spy on my children. thanks for the advice though!
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The point I am trying to make...Is there is nothing wrong with liking the same sex! It hurts nobody. Sorry if you don't want them to be gay, but there are many things in this world I detest but is allowed i.e. strip joints, sex shops, *bleep*, sex in movies and so on.
Also being gay is NOT a choice and from my experience at such a young age should show you it is a natural thing. Children don't know it is "wrong" until you kick up a fuss.
Also, let's see, I know many kids that will put bugs in their mouth or frogs and eat them (from America's funniest home videos and other sources) but it isn't until the parent or another person freaks out do they think it is bad.
Prove it's not a choice.
Whether it's wrong or not is an OPINION.
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The point I am trying to make...Is there is nothing wrong with liking the same sex! It hurts nobody. Sorry if you don't want them to be gay, but there are many things in this world I detest but is allowed i.e. strip joints, sex shops, *bleep*, sex in movies and so on.
Marie are you insisting sex is unnatural? if sex in moves is wrong then so is anger, happiness, sadness, etc. If we didn't have our everyday emotions in movies what would be left? Strip joints? Sex Shops? *bleep*? what's in sex shops? well i've been in one and i'll tell you. various toys for female and male pleasure several nicknacks that can be applied in the bedroom, Lingerie and stripper like outfits and costumes along wih novelty items. name one person that any of those things could cause harm to (excluding small parts kids could choke on). *bleep*, in my eyes *bleep* is a work of art. i don't watch *bleep* (i won't say i haven't seen it, but i don 't watch it regulary). *bleep* is the same concept as stand up comedy. comedy makes you laugh, *bleep* may make you get off, the same way horror movies scare you. All of them are manipulatons to the senses because the are not technically reality.( like your not actually making that 3 pointer but it sure was fun watching!). Why single out *bleep*?
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The point I am trying to make...Is there is nothing wrong with liking the same sex! It hurts nobody. Sorry if you don't want them to be gay, but there are many things in this world I detest but is allowed i.e. strip joints, sex shops, *bleep*, sex in movies and so on.
Also being gay is NOT a choice and from my experience at such a young age should show you it is a natural thing. Children don't know it is "wrong" until you kick up a fuss.
Also, let's see, I know many kids that will put bugs in their mouth or frogs and eat them (from America's funniest home videos and other sources) but it isn't until the parent or another person freaks out do they think it is bad.
Prove it's not a choice.
Whether it's wrong or not is an OPINION.
The only way we can prove it isn't a choice is to run studies on small children before grown ups tell them being gay is against God and is bad and awful and wrong and immoral and a sin.
on children haha, children exploring at a young age isn't even sexual. but by all means set your cameras and try to catch some exciting
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The point I am trying to make...Is there is nothing wrong with liking the same sex! It hurts nobody. Sorry if you don't want them to be gay, but there are many things in this world I detest but is allowed i.e. strip joints, sex shops, *bleep*, sex in movies and so on.
Also being gay is NOT a choice and from my experience at such a young age should show you it is a natural thing. Children don't know it is "wrong" until you kick up a fuss.
Also, let's see, I know many kids that will put bugs in their mouth or frogs and eat them (from America's funniest home videos and other sources) but it isn't until the parent or another person freaks out do they think it is bad.
Prove it's not a choice.
Whether it's wrong or not is an OPINION.
The only way we can prove it isn't a choice is to run studies on small children before grown ups tell them being gay is against God and is bad and awful and wrong and immoral and a sin.
on children haha, children exploring at a young age isn't even sexual. but by all means set your cameras and try to catch some exciting
Haha the bruden of proof is absolutely NOT on me, you're the one claiming it's a fact that it's a choice.
YOU did that as a child. That never happened to me with any of my friends EVER. It is not a normal thing for children to do sexual stuff- they are too innocent to even know of sex yet. Regardless, you can't prove a thing about it not being a choice and you playing doctor with your friends is not proof by any means.
The burden of proof is on you. I have personal experience. Trust me, it is sexual.
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The site has no scientific evidence of your own personal deity. Like I said, it just pokes holes in current scientific reasoning and capitalizes on the bible. And yet the banner up top says "Evidence for God". To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses (wiki). There is nothing of this with your personal deity because there is nothing there; especially since this deity is conveniently deemed in the supernatural world. I rest on Jordans words- "A god of the gaps".
There are three major areas that have been posited to provide evidence for the existence of God. Thomas Aquinas, argued in favor of the existence of God on the basis of fundamental aspects of the universe such as causality and change. William Paley argued that the hand of God is evident in the apparent design of the universe and living beings. The third line of evidence argues that God makes Himself evident in personal transcendent experiences of people. Of these three lines of evidence, science has eliminated none, although many would argue that the evidence for biological evolution has weakened the argument for the design of living organisms. Even so, there are numerous gaps in evolution - many of which have appeared recently.
Many skeptics believe that all arguments for the existence of God fall into the God of the gaps variety. According to this premise, one would expect these arguments to become fewer in number as scientists make more discoveries and learn more about our world. In reality, evidence continues to accumulate suggesting that the universe was designed by an intelligent agent. The evidence suggesting that the universe and its physical laws were designed continues to accumulate at a rapid rate.
If evidence for the existence of God were truly a God of the gaps type, we would expect these gaps to be disappearing, instead of increasing in number. The evidence is so strong that long-time promoter of atheism, Antony Flew announced in 2004 that he had become a deist because he "had to go where the evidence leads."
It gives PLENTY of evidence.
From OBSERVING that everything in this world that contains information, was created by a form of intelligence, gives a person reasonable and logical conclusions that the very essence of life "DNA" containing VAST amounts of complicated information in every single cell in the human body, that an intelligence created life. LIFE is evidence for God, no mechanism for evolution can be found to have the ability to create information. THEREFORE, adding information to DNA coding to evolve from one species to another is found to be IMPOSSIBLE. Life being spontaneously created in a soup from chemicals is IMPOSSIBLE.
The design position IS falsifiable, since advocates of naturalism could discover a natural process capable of creating the necessary information if such a process exists. If Neo-Darwinism were true as a general theory of biological creation, it would falsify the claim that some additional information-creating mechanism is necessary. The "design is religion, not science" position is not falsifiable because it decides the disputed question by the manipulation of words rather than by empirical investigation. Hence, by the standard of falsifiability the intelligent design hypothesis is scientific, and the refusal to consider it on its merits is unscientific. quote by me from another thread.
Again, refusing to look at evidence because the presenter of the evidence infers God, is closed minded. You can deny it and you can try and justify yourself all you want but your actions and you words show that you have no interest in considering an alternative. You are the definition of closed minded.
Wow Sherene....you should teach. What an excellent post!
Not to be a bi*tch, but 99.9% of those words are Rich Deems' from 'godandscience.org'.
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It's a real shame that it APPEARS to us on here that ALL Christians are being lumped together as a "delusional, looney-bin, crazy, stupid" group.
I have never used any of those words, just for the record. Perhaps I should have qualified "you" as Christians and not just those in these forums. As for the rest of what you wrote, jcribb, I keep seeing the same thing over and over and I DO understand what you are saying. However, I cannot get around the thinking that by you collectively justifying your stance because of [any and all] religion and what is written in the bible, you are NOT holding a large number of people back from living their lives. That is how I feel and how I see it.
jordandog, I did put those words in quotes because they came from this forum. I would like to acknowledge to those reading this thread that those words do NOT apply to anything you have said. There are 2 or 3 others on here who speak these words freely without respect, so in my irritability, I failed to mention that those words do NOT include you. Thank you for calling me on it and please accept my apology.
Also, I must be knocked out by my meds right now, enough, that I'm not quite getting what you are saying in your last 2 sentences. Please overlook my dumbness and clear the cobwebs for me, ok? Are we good? :sad1:
As usual, I disappeared off FC at my normal time last night to get to work, so I didn't see this or the last few pages until now. I always 'worry' someone will think I am ticked of, pouting, or ignoring them when I don't post replies and just go 'poof'! ;)
The last 2 sentences? I am simply saying I do not agree it is NOT discrimination and cannot say religion and the Bible are NOT holding people back from living their lives, that's all. Apology accepted and of course 'we're good'.
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Christians have been discriminated against in the past and have died for their beliefs. In some countries they still are!
Oh, boo-hoo! Don't try to play that card - it's ridiculous. While I'm not denying Christians have been persecuted against in the past/present, need I remind you that the ONLY reason you follow Christianity at all is because your religion killed/threaten to kill those who didn't convert? Religions are viruses, designed to replicate and spread their poison by force.
there is a difference in disagreeing and discriminating.
Indeed there is. Christianity: protected by the First Amendment right to believe in whatever silly nonsense you choose. Homosexuality: DENIED basic rights on account of one's sexuality. People who can't see how it's discrimination are either blind or thick.
Now if gays were given the same rights as a heterosexual person in terms of marriage, jobs, etc. and THEN you still secretly disapproved of them, *that* would be fair. But that isn't the case yet, now is it?
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Indeed there is. Christianity: protected by the First Amendment right to believe in whatever silly nonsense you choose. Homosexuality: DENIED basic rights on account of one's sexuality. People who can't see how it's discrimination are either blind or thick.
Now if gays were given the same rights as a heterosexual person in terms of marriage, jobs, etc. and THEN you still secretly disapproved of them, *that* would be fair. But that isn't the case yet, now is it?
Thank you! :notworthy:
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Just for the sake of argument, not necessarily my personal views. :)
Homosexuality: DENIED basic rights on account of one's sexuality
Show me in the constitution, where it says that everyone is allowed to marry?
The fact of the matter is, denying them marriage technically isn't unconstitutional. Unethical, perhaps(it's subjective).
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Uh, if it's a sin....it's wrong.
You missed the point of what Falconer was saying. You can go label-happy all you want, but just because some ancient book of superstitions says a certain act is wrong, doesn't make it so in the actual world. I'm sure you're familiar with this when it comes to Islam and the strict laws against sin YOU don't follow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj799RHKHPE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj799RHKHPE)
Abnormal, but completely natural? Your contradicting yourself on so many levels.
No contradiction. A person with red hair is ABNORMAL but completely natural (that is, they're rare amongst the population, but still exist in nature). Checkmate.
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a neurologist says that a knack for sarcasm isn't necessarily linked to intelligence.
And I agree with that. However, it's not good to automatically assume the worst in these situations, like person A did X, therefore, they MUST be messed up!
Speaking honestly, I only added that last bit as an afterthought to warn people of your affection for that site. Saying "a creationist site should have the answer" was enough sarcasm on its own. ;)
The site ISN'T broken, you are just CLOSED MINDED
"Being called closed-minded by religious people is a bit like being called yellow by a bunch of bananas." - Pat Condell
If I said I refuse to take seriously anything that starts out with, and is obviously making a definitive statement, that God does not exist
He didn't. He just said there was no reputable proof for your god, which is true. Although I can see how that seems like it's saying there is no Christian god...because it kinda is.
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What that when I was five or six, I liked little girls and would kiss them and we would touch? Anyone with common sense knows what homosexuals do in the bedroom. Or only when someone spells it out for you do you get it? I am not gay but like I said, I was a kid and it was NOT a choice, it was NATURAL.
Do what you got to do, I am just showing you, I was a child and didn't make a LIFESTYLE choice. It was a natural attraction.
I support what marie's saying, and Amy has touched on this as well. KIDS EXPLORE THEIR SEXUALITY!! It's natural! It's the fundamentalists who are screwing their kids up for life, telling them that sex is ONLY after marriage and ONLY with one opposite-sex partner and ONLY if they don't get divorced.
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I'm under the assumption that since my post was completely disregarded that I have won this argument.
MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
lol :bootyshake:
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Show me in the constitution, where it says that everyone is allowed to marry?
Actually, it doesn't say anyone's allowed to marry in the Constitution. Because marriage isn't in it. lol
The fact of the matter is, denying them marriage technically isn't unconstitutional. Unethical, perhaps(it's subjective).
What about the famous lines from the Declaration of Independence? Well allowing people of all races, cultures, and religions to marry but excluding gays isn't fair and certainly affects their "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".
My husband and I were talking about this subject last night and we kept coming back to, "How in the world do religious people think being homosexual is a CHOICE??" Putting on my Christian hat here...the only two reasons I can come up with for people thinking it's a "choice" are:
#1 You think gay people are just being rebellious, as someone who indulges in drugs or rock 'n' roll might be. "*bleep* are so boring...screw society, HE looks fun!" This might explain some of those of the teen or college-age demographic, but certainly not the scores of older gay adults. Plenty of gays can attest that they were not "acting out" but simply could not help who they were naturally attracted to. So this reason is invalid.
OR
#2 "The devil made me do it." Probably the main reason religious people think being gay is a choice is because they believe Satan tempts people and they have the choice to "give in" or not. But does this "reasoning" stand up to scrutiny? Not at all. Why?
Well you shout time and again that people are not BORN gay. So what exactly is so tempting about a person of the same sex to someone who is supposedly "heterosexual"? As my husband pointed out, "Sure, I could 'choose' to f--k a guy, but I wouldn't want to do it and I wouldn't enjoy it because I'm not attracted to males sexually or emotionally, I'm not gay. I can't just look at a naked guy and force myself to have a b--er."
So is a straight guy just sitting on the beach and a little devil comes up on his shoulder and whispers, "Hey, look at that guy's package!" And the straight guy goes, "Shut up, Satan! That's a sin! I'm not gay!" And Satan tinkers with his brain...tinker, tinker, tinker. "Come on, you know you want some!" Straight guy: "Hmm, I wasn't attracted to men 5 minutes ago, but now they're suddenly so appealing!!"
So god allows Satan to mess with people's brains and turn them gay, and then god gets mad at people for being gay?! What!!
There's a WAR on YOUR GENITALS! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgWBet96Y_k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgWBet96Y_k)
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a neurologist says that a knack for sarcasm isn't necessarily linked to intelligence.
And I agree with that. However, it's not good to automatically assume the worst in these situations, like person A did X, therefore, they MUST be messed up!
Oh, you mean like you have done with me constantly?
Speaking honestly, I only added that last bit as an afterthought to warn people of your affection for that site. Saying "a creationist site should have the answer" was enough sarcasm on its own. ;)
And why do people need to be warned about my using that website?
The site ISN'T broken, you are just CLOSED MINDED
"Being called closed-minded by religious people is a bit like being called yellow by a bunch of bananas." - Pat Condell
Religious people an be open minded, anyone can be. Saying something is "broken from the get go" because it's title indicates something you disagree with, is closed minded. Turning this back around on an entire other group of people doesn't change the fact that closed minded is what he is being. ::)
If I said I refuse to take seriously anything that starts out with, and is obviously making a definitive statement, that God does not exist
He didn't. He just said there was no reputable proof for your god, which is true. Although I can see how that seems like it's saying there is no Christian god...because it kinda is.
"Remember the title" "it's broken from the get go" ......he wasn't taking anything seriously from that site simply because of the title and he as much admitted it
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Not to be a bi*tch, but 99.9% of those words are Rich Deems' from 'godandscience.org'.
Jordan, the first italicized section was from godandscience, in my haste I forgot to link it, the rest were my words so about 50% of that was godandscience....but WHY does it matter?
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Quote from queenofnines:
Speaking honestly, I only added that last bit as an afterthought to warn people of your affection for that site. Saying "a creationist site should have the answer" was enough sarcasm on its own.
Quote from Sherna:
And why do people need to be warned about my using that website?
Queenofnines, maybe I should start warning people about your "atheists sites." There's no need to balk at someone using a site that they like when you do the exact same thing. Out of most all the non-believers in this forum, you are the most likely to point fingers, and try to intimidate others, sarcastically I may add, and expect them to listen to you and agree with all you say. Your way is NOT the only way. Other nonbelievers at least have the respect to look at other's links and discuss them. They also at least give thought-provoking answers to debate with. With you, it's more like you give none. Only occasionally have you actually agreed to disagree or look at something from a different point of view. No wonder people get argumentative back with you.
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Not to be a bi*tch, but 99.9% of those words are Rich Deems' from 'godandscience.org'.
Jordan, the first italicized section was from godandscience, in my haste I forgot to link it, the rest were my words so about 50% of that was godandscience....but WHY does it matter?
Maybe me saying 99.9% was exaggerated, but I plugged in exact searches from ALL italicized parts and they came up as written, with maybe a word or 2 switched around. It doesn't matter, other than being given credit for something not originally your's. I am sorry if it was not the right thing to do, but I get put off when anyone does that. I should have assumed you just forgot to link it because you do not normally do that ie take credit. Momentary burr up the toosh, sorry, sincerely.
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Actually, it doesn't say anyone's allowed to marry in the Constitution. Because marriage isn't in it. lol
This was my point exactly. The whole argument with legalizing gay marriage is that it is unconstitutional. For this argument to even be slightly valid, marriage should be defined in the Constitution period. Otherwise, nobody is infringing on anything for denying them marital rights. Thusly making this argument, and the argument for gay rights ultimately pointless, given the current circumstances of course.
But by no means do I think they should be discriminated against professionally or with their Constitutionally given rights. They are people just like the rest of us.
P.S So is a straight guy just sitting on the beach and a little devil comes up on his shoulder and whispers, "Hey, look at that guy's package!" And the straight guy goes, "Shut up, Satan! That's a sin! I'm not gay!" And Satan tinkers with his brain...tinker, tinker, tinker. "Come on, you know you want some!" Straight guy: "Hmm, I wasn't attracted to men 5 minutes ago, but now they're suddenly so appealing!!"
I lol'd.
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Quote from queenofnines:
Speaking honestly, I only added that last bit as an afterthought to warn people of your affection for that site. Saying "a creationist site should have the answer" was enough sarcasm on its own.
Quote from Sherna:
And why do people need to be warned about my using that website?
Queenofnines, maybe I should start warning people about your "atheists sites." There's no need to balk at someone using a site that they like when you do the exact same thing. Out of most all the non-believers in this forum, you are the most likely to point fingers, and try to intimidate others, sarcastically I may add, and expect them to listen to you and agree with all you say. Your way is NOT the only way. Other nonbelievers at least have the respect to look at other's links and discuss them. They also at least give thought-provoking answers to debate with. With you, it's more like you give none. Only occasionally have you actually agreed to disagree or look at something from a different point of view. No wonder people get argumentative back with you.
Thanks for backing me up jcribb.
I have come to the conclusion that, when they do not have an answer for what I pose to them, if I used information from that site in any post that stumps them for an answer, they attack my use of that site instead of admitting they don't know or that they could be wrong.
It's an avoidance tactic, so they can bring the focus onto something else besides their lack of an effective argument. They are just making an issue of something that doesn't really matter, so the spot light is off them because all they can do is say things like "I'm not qualified to answer that" or "I'm tired, I'll get back to you on that" (and then of course never get back to me)
The strength behind the argument for evolution is based solely on intimidation and creating shame in the minds of those who oppose it. What evolution lacks in facts, they more than make up for in psychology and manipulation. When an evolutionist enters into an argument where creation and evolution are in conflict, they frequently precede the debate by laying the groundwork by defining the parameters in which you are allowed to think.
When pitted fact against fact, evolution can’t stand up against creation. Therefore, the facts are bypassed for an easier target. A straw man is built and then pulverized. The easiest way to attack creation is to define it in terms that you can attack. Instead of rebutting the facts creation science presents, it is easier to just call it religion and put it into an ‘unscientific’ category and then ignore it
If you listen closely you will notice that evolution debaters claim their authority based on their belief in evolution. They use circular reasoning to establish this claim to authority. Those who reason inside the box are intellectually elite and those outside the box are intellectually dishonest. They boldly assert that they are the only freethinkers while at the same time refusing to allow thinking that does not fall into the standard of the day. Anyone or any idea that falls outside of evolution is belittled.http://www.exchangedlife.com/Creation/think/psych.shtml
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I have come to the conclusion that, when they do not have an answer for what I pose to them, if I used information from that site in any post that stumps them for an answer, they attack my use of that site instead of admitting they don't know or that they could be wrong.
It's an avoidance tactic, so they can bring the focus onto something else besides their lack of an effective argument. They are just making an issue of something that doesn't really matter, so the spot light is off them because all they can do is say things like "I'm not qualified to answer that" or "I'm tired, I'll get back to you on that" (and then of course never get back to me)
It seems that any and all of us who are on the non-believing end of things just got backhanded with those words. You have never been one to throw us all into the same pile before, but the use of all the they(s), them(s), and their just did - intended or not...you just surprised me!
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Just for the sake of argument, not necessarily my personal views. :)
Homosexuality: DENIED basic rights on account of one's sexuality
Show me in the constitution, where it says that everyone is allowed to marry?
The fact of the matter is, denying them marriage technically isn't unconstitutional. Unethical, perhaps(it's subjective).
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Is it just to disallow a couple to legally marry because their lifestyle is considered a sin to someone else's religion, especially since our federal government has guaranteed freedom of religion? Where are the blessings of liberty for these folk?
This was my point exactly. The whole argument with legalizing gay marriage is that it is unconstitutional. For this argument to even be slightly valid, marriage should be defined in the Constitution period. Otherwise, nobody is infringing on anything for denying them marital rights. Thusly making this argument, and the argument for gay rights ultimately pointless, given the current circumstances of course.
But by no means do I think they should be discriminated against professionally or with their Constitutionally given rights. They are people just like the rest of us.
The 9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
So...if state law says that people have a right to get married...why are some denied based on sexuality? It usually comes down to religious ideology...and we all know what the Constitution says about religion...
NOTE: This is not me bashing anyone's religion...that's not how I roll...
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I have come to the conclusion that, when they do not have an answer for what I pose to them, if I used information from that site in any post that stumps them for an answer, they attack my use of that site instead of admitting they don't know or that they could be wrong.
It's an avoidance tactic, so they can bring the focus onto something else besides their lack of an effective argument. They are just making an issue of something that doesn't really matter, so the spot light is off them because all they can do is say things like "I'm not qualified to answer that" or "I'm tired, I'll get back to you on that" (and then of course never get back to me)
It seems that any and all of us who are on the non-believing end of things just got backhanded with those words. You have never been one to throw us all into the same pile before, but the use of all the they(s), them(s), and their just did - intended or not...you just surprised me!
Well, I used "they" because I was referring to more than one person. But you did add your comment as to my using that site, earlier in the thread. I'm just pointing it out that there is no legitimate reason to be concerned about how often I use a site, or what the title of it is. This is not a real argument about the issues being discussed. If you disagree with the information from the site, fine, you are entitled to your opinion....however, when I am making a point and I reference something that backs my point....attacking my source or using my source as some backhanded insult to me, is not addressing the argument, it is avoiding it.
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Just for the sake of argument, not necessarily my personal views. :)
Homosexuality: DENIED basic rights on account of one's sexuality
Show me in the constitution, where it says that everyone is allowed to marry?
The fact of the matter is, denying them marriage technically isn't unconstitutional. Unethical, perhaps(it's subjective).
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Is it just to disallow a couple to legally marry because their lifestyle is considered a sin to someone else's religion, especially since our federal government has guaranteed freedom of religion? Where are the blessings of liberty for these folk?
This was my point exactly. The whole argument with legalizing gay marriage is that it is unconstitutional. For this argument to even be slightly valid, marriage should be defined in the Constitution period. Otherwise, nobody is infringing on anything for denying them marital rights. Thusly making this argument, and the argument for gay rights ultimately pointless, given the current circumstances of course.
But by no means do I think they should be discriminated against professionally or with their Constitutionally given rights. They are people just like the rest of us.
The 9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
So...if state law says that people have a right to get married...why are some denied based on sexuality? It usually comes down to religious ideology...and we all know what the Constitution says about religion...
NOTE: This is not me bashing anyone's religion...that's not how I roll...
I wouldn't take it as bashing. This is all in good fun for me. :D
But some of the populous that voted for non-gay marriage is non-denominational, how does that make this purely a religious problem? It isn't purely denied because it is a sin to some religions.
As for the Constitution reference. Is it just to tell a cocaine addict that they cant indulge in their habit because society has told them it is wrong? I'm sure they would absolutely love the liberty to snort/smoke wherever and whenever they like because that is how they pursue their happiness. But as a whole, the country decided to discriminate against these drug using people by making it a federal offense to possess or use such substances.
Another such people is illegal immigrants. They pursue their happiness and liberties by immigrating here illegally, yet there are laws set in place to stop this from happening and actually go to the extent of removing these people from our country.
Again, I'm not saying its right or wrong. Its just that the argument is based off of very shaky foundations and doesn't have much to stand on when courts allow Domestic Partnership and then they continue to push for more and more.
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I have come to the conclusion that, when they do not have an answer for what I pose to them, if I used information from that site in any post that stumps them for an answer, they attack my use of that site instead of admitting they don't know or that they could be wrong.
It's an avoidance tactic, so they can bring the focus onto something else besides their lack of an effective argument. They are just making an issue of something that doesn't really matter, so the spot light is off them because all they can do is say things like "I'm not qualified to answer that" or "I'm tired, I'll get back to you on that" (and then of course never get back to me)
It seems that any and all of us who are on the non-believing end of things just got backhanded with those words. You have never been one to throw us all into the same pile before, but the use of all the they(s), them(s), and their just did - intended or not...you just surprised me!
Well, I used "they" because I was referring to more than one person. But you did add your comment as to my using that site, earlier in the thread. I'm just pointing it out that there is no legitimate reason to be concerned about how often I use a site, or what the title of it is. This is not a real argument about the issues being discussed. If you disagree with the information from the site, fine, you are entitled to your opinion....however, when I am making a point and I reference something that backs my point....attacking my source or using my source as some backhanded insult to me, is not addressing the argument, it is avoiding it.
As far as adding my comment about the site earlier, you know it was NOT about the site, it was about ownership of words. I also know that you CANNOT say I have ever said a thing about that site or your use of it until the post in this thread. I have never attacked you for your use of it, I have never stated I disagree with everything on it , and the ONLY thing I know I have done is make a harmless/humorous quick remark when even YOU were joking about it. I don't want the "don't own it if it's not your's" thrown out about this by ANYONE. There's no way to not have been included in that and what you said was an insult and not expected out of you. It would have been VERY easy to use the word some. If you had, I would not have bothered writing any of this. It was an attack on a lot of people and NOT an attack about a site - big difference.
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As far as adding my comment about the site earlier, you know it was NOT about the site, it was about ownership of words. I also know that you CANNOT say I have ever said a thing about that site or your use of it until the post in this thread. I have never attacked you for your use of it, I have never stated I disagree with everything on it , and the ONLY thing I know I have done is make a harmless/humorous quick remark when even YOU were joking about it. I don't want the "don't own it if it's not your's" thrown out about this by ANYONE. There's no way to not have been included in that and what you said was an insult and not expected out of you. It would have been VERY easy to use the word some. If you had, I would not have bothered writing any of this. It was an attack on a lot of people and NOT an attack about a site - big difference.
You are right, you have never attacked me for using that site. When you posted earlier pointing out that part of my statement was from that site, for one thing, you were incorrect in saying how much of it was from the site so I didn't appreciate that. But I still wasn't including you in my post to jcribb, and mostly because you and I never really debate! You point out certain things from my post to clarify it or question it but we never debate, so you did not even enter my mind.
My use of the word "they"....jcribb quoted queen and myself in her post, I commented to jcribb using specific quotes from queen and falconer and used the word "they" as a plural for the ones I quoted, without actually using their names to point out that it was them specifically that I referred to. You ARE owning something that isn't yours. If you haven't done what I said in my post, and then assumed that "they" included you; then are assuming something about my character that you yourself said I don't do.
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The whole argument with legalizing gay marriage is that it is unconstitutional. For this argument to even be slightly valid, marriage should be defined in the Constitution period. Otherwise, nobody is infringing on anything for denying them marital rights.
I'm sure there are plenty of laws/rights that aren't in the Constitution. It's not the be-all end-all for this kind of thing. They actually were going to add an amendment defining marriage as between one man and one woman; it got voted down, fortunately. But like Amy says, freedom of religion...and religion is the main party saying homosexuality is wrong. Therefore, it's unconstitutional because it's enforcing one group's version of religious morals on society at large.
Also, notice at many workplaces there is an Equal Opportunity Act poster saying it is unlawful to discriminate against race, gender, marital status, etc. If it's wrong to discriminate against gays in the workplace, why is it okay to do it when it comes to marriage?
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if I used information from that site in any post that stumps them for an answer, they attack my use of that site instead of admitting they don't know or that they could be wrong.
I have yet to be stumped? lol A lot of the time I just get fed up showing the fallacies in every little thing when it's already been done many times over and it will make no difference to you if I did so, anyway.
so the spot light is off them because all they can do is say things like "I'm not qualified to answer that" or "I'm tired, I'll get back to you on that" (and then of course never get back to me)
The spotlight is off because you expect unanswerable answers? Or even the answers we do give, are never good enough for you despite how sound and reasonable they are. For the record, jordandog, she's referring to me and Falconer here. lol
The strength behind the argument for evolution is based solely on intimidation and creating shame in the minds of those who oppose it.
Evolution?! There Christians go again, dragging subject matter in that doesn't relate at all. What's next, The Big Bang? This thread is for homosexuality!
As for intimidation...yes people should be discouraged from engaging in things that are harmful to themselves and/or society (dogmatic religion). Just because you think the facts are being presented in an arrogant way does not mean they're invalid.
they frequently precede the debate by laying the groundwork by defining the parameters in which you are allowed to think.
Y'all just don't seem to get there's an objective way of looking at things, and then there's a religious way. If religion was valid, it could be found when observing reality objectively.
When pitted fact against fact, evolution can’t stand up against creation.
This sentence wins the Irony Award.
Instead of rebutting the facts creation science presents, it is easier to just call it religion and put it into an ‘unscientific’ category and then ignore it
All of your arguments already have been rebutted by people who are qualified to do so.
But anyway, let's STAY ON TOPIC, people!! No evolution talk in a gay thread!!!
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Evolution?! There Christians go again, dragging subject matter in that doesn't relate at all. What's next, The Big Bang? This thread is for homosexuality!
Marie brought up people born with both sexual organs
You said you would like to hear what Chrisitians have to say about this
I responded (and did not reference godandscience in my response)
You replied with a post, using sarcasm to warn people about me using a CREATION website.
Who is getting off topic here?
My responses after this have been about yours and falconers problem with me using that website, and since I normally use it when dealing with SCIENCE AND EVOLUTION, your bringing it up in response to my hermaphrodite post, made no sense.
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It's a real shame that it APPEARS to us on here that ALL Christians are being lumped together as a "delusional, looney-bin, crazy, stupid" group.
I have never used any of those words, just for the record. Perhaps I should have qualified "you" as Christians and not just those in these forums. As for the rest of what you wrote, jcribb, I keep seeing the same thing over and over and I DO understand what you are saying. However, I cannot get around the thinking that by you collectively justifying your stance because of [any and all] religion and what is written in the bible, you are NOT holding a large number of people back from living their lives. That is how I feel and how I see it.
jordandog, I did put those words in quotes because they came from this forum. I would like to acknowledge to those reading this thread that those words do NOT apply to anything you have said. There are 2 or 3 others on here who speak these words freely without respect, so in my irritability, I failed to mention that those words do NOT include you. Thank you for calling me on it and please accept my apology.
Also, I must be knocked out by my meds right now, enough, that I'm not quite getting what you are saying in your last 2 sentences. Please overlook my dumbness and clear the cobwebs for me, ok? Are we good? :sad1:
As usual, I disappeared off FC at my normal time last night to get to work, so I didn't see this or the last few pages until now. I always 'worry' someone will think I am ticked of, pouting, or ignoring them when I don't post replies and just go 'poof'! ;)
The last 2 sentences? I am simply saying I do not agree it is NOT discrimination and cannot say religion and the Bible are NOT holding people back from living their lives, that's all. Apology accepted and of course 'we're good'.
Thanks, jordandog, for the clarification. I knew you would get back because you always do. I'm also beginning to get used to your work hours. By the time you get on here, I have to go to work. When I get back, you're catching some zzzzz......!
I do agree there is a lot of discrimination towards gays and their rights. I also have to say that yes, it is not something looked upon by God in the Bible. However, there are probably just as many non-christians as there are Christians who do discriminate. I believe that's the point some are trying to get across in here. I'm not discriminating against gays, personally, while their lifestyle choice is not my personal choice. And I am a Christian. I let them live their lives - after all, they are people and citizens of this country just as the rest of us.
I would like to compare how similar this conversation is to queenofnines and discrimination toward gays. She treats Christians and their beliefs as "fairy tales, delusions, sarsasm, and literally claiming our beliefs as invalid." I cannot speak for the others, but I would say she is definitely discriminating against Christians instead of just accepting that that's the way we believe. That isn't fair either on her part, and the thing is, it doesn't compromise anything in her life for us to believe as we do, yet she's constantly mocking believers. If that's not discrimination.....
But I do digress badly here. Thank you for responding back and for always being kind and honest when you do debate.
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I'm sure there are plenty of laws/rights that aren't in the Constitution.
Of course there are, but if you look at activist leaders arguments they are all based on the Constitution. I'm simply repeating what they are trying to argue, not bring it up as a new argument.
Therefore, it's unconstitutional because it's enforcing one group's version of religious morals on society at large.
I would totally agree with you if it was all one denomination of religion that voted this down and that was the clear and cut reason why they couldn't marry. I would absolutely 100% concede. But that's not the case a lot of people from a mass variety of religions voted it down(hell, I even know gay people that voted down Prop 8 in CA a few years back).
Also, notice at many workplaces there is an Equal Opportunity Act poster saying it is unlawful to discriminate against race, gender, marital status, etc. If it's wrong to discriminate against gays in the workplace, why is it okay to do it when it comes to marriage?
My dog and myself wouldn't be discriminated against in the workplace of Animal photography. Should I be allowed to marry her? Hell no.
My sister wouldn't be discriminated against. Is she a viable option for me now too?
I want 10 wives. Is that cool?
Is it okay if one of those 10 is 15?
It just opens up a metaphorical Pandora's Box for all other sorts of marriage that should not be going on. (Which is the argument for the other side, along with the "its a man and woman" hoo hah and all that other hum bug stuff)
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Did anyone see john McCain's response to reportes on the issue? how childish!
Link-> http://1e25fc45.linkgalleries.net
LALALAALALAL NOT the policy LALALALAL not the policy!
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There are six billion people in this world...you and your friends made up 10 of them. Don't try to say what is normal and what is not. In fact maybe you need to speak with someone who can pretty much tell you how it is, like a child psychologist.
Cool, you and your friends make up 10 percent of the population as well- hypocrite.
YOU don't try to say what is normal and what is not either then- hypocrite.
And you advising me to get therapy is ironic, not to mention hilarious.
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I guess I was just pretty smart about stuff. Nothing ever got past me.
That must be it.
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there is a difference in disagreeing and discriminating.
Quote from Queen:
Indeed there is. Christianity: protected by the First Amendment right to believe in whatever silly nonsense you choose. Homosexuality: DENIED basic rights on account of one's sexuality. People who can't see how it's discrimination are either blind or thick.
Now if gays were given the same rights as a heterosexual person in terms of marriage, jobs, etc. and THEN you still secretly disapproved of them, *that* would be fair. But that isn't the case yet, now is it?
My Response:
So now it's my fault they aren't given those rights, and because they don't have them I am discriminating against them? HA.
Honestly this is what I've learned from you so far on this forum
-all Christians are judgemental intolerant -false and a generalization
-anyone who disagrees with you is delusional or "thick" -which makes you the one who doesn't tolerate others' beliefs
-if anyone states what they beleive they must be "forcing" it on you -which is ridiculous, more than anyone you try convincing others that there is NO God, and for the most part we don't try to convince you there IS a God, just that we have the right to believe in one without you telling us how delusional and thick we are
(I screwed up the quote thing and this was easier than fixing it ha)
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Look it is frustrating to speak to stupid people, so I am done :BangHead:
cool
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Christians have been discriminated against in the past and have died for their beliefs. In some countries they still are!
Oh, boo-hoo! Don't try to play that card - it's ridiculous. While I'm not denying Christians have been persecuted against in the past/present, need I remind you that the ONLY reason you follow Christianity at all is because your religion killed/threaten to kill those who didn't convert? Religions are viruses, designed to replicate and spread their poison by force.
I just got on and saw this.......
OH??? Do you know why I follow Christianity?? Really?? Do you actually presume to know the dictates and thoughts of my heart??? As far as my "so called" religion threatened to kill or killed those who didn't convert leaves me totally appalled!! Just what religion are you referring to? Roman Catholicism maybe? Of which my movement is NOT, nor are our roots traced back to that Mother Church. I "force" NO ONE to convert to anything. If you want to define poison, all you have to do is open your mouth woman, and it's there in abundance.....in your tougue! Yeah, that's right!
I travel to these countries where there is NO freedom of religion and Christians have to worship underground! That's persecution, and no basic rights. If they're caught, they can be imprisoned for life, or put to death....EVEN TODAY!!
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there is a difference in disagreeing and discriminating.
Quote from Queen:
Indeed there is. Christianity: protected by the First Amendment right to believe in whatever silly nonsense you choose. Homosexuality: DENIED basic rights on account of one's sexuality. People who can't see how it's discrimination are either blind or thick.
Now if gays were given the same rights as a heterosexual person in terms of marriage, jobs, etc. and THEN you still secretly disapproved of them, *that* would be fair. But that isn't the case yet, now is it?
My Response:
So now it's my fault they aren't given those rights, and because they don't have them I am discriminating against them? HA.
Honestly this is what I've learned from you so far on this forum
-all Christians are judgemental intolerant -false and a generalization
-anyone who disagrees with you is delusional or "thick" -which makes you the one who doesn't tolerate others' beliefs
-if anyone states what they beleive they must be "forcing" it on you -which is ridiculous, more than anyone you try convincing others that there is NO God, and for the most part we don't try to convince you there IS a God, just that we have the right to believe in one without you telling us how delusional and thick we are
(I screwed up the quote thing and this was easier than fixing it ha)
Excellent post Mackenzie, and absolutely truth!!
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Christians have been discriminated against in the past and have died for their beliefs. In some countries they still are!
Oh, boo-hoo! Don't try to play that card - it's ridiculous. While I'm not denying Christians have been persecuted against in the past/present, need I remind you that the ONLY reason you follow Christianity at all is because your religion killed/threaten to kill those who didn't convert? Religions are viruses, designed to replicate and spread their poison by force.
I just got on and saw this.......
OH??? Do you know why I follow Christianity?? Really?? Do you actually presume to know the dictates and thoughts of my heart??? As far as my "so called" religion threatened to kill or killed those who didn't convert leaves me totally appalled!! Just what religion are you referring to? Roman Catholicism maybe? Of which my movement is NOT, nor are our roots traced back to that Mother Church. I "force" NO ONE to convert to anything. If you want to define poison, all you have to do is open your mouth woman, and it's there in abundance.....in your tougue! Yeah, that's right!
I travel to these countries where there is NO freedom of religion and Christians have to worship underground! That's persecution, and no basic rights. If they're caught, they can be imprisoned for life, or put to death....EVEN TODAY!!
I don't have to travel any where. Many of my Relations are "legally banned" from practicing their Spirituality right here in this country, today.
Of course, you don't want to respond to that eh Rev. Bigot?
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Advise you to get therapy? Are you a child? I was just figuring you would listen to someone who has a degree.
DUDE. A piece of paper = EZ-MODE for intelligence!?!?! (WHY WASN'T I AWARE IT COULD BE BOUGHT NOWADAYS?!?)
AND CAPS LOCK = CRUISE CONTROL FOR KEWLZ!!!!
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I don't have to travel any where. Many of my Relations are "legally banned" from practicing their Spirituality right here in this country, today.
Of course, you don't want to respond to that eh Rev. Bigot?
Must be something your doing in your practices that make them "legally banned". Since I don't write the laws of this Nation, your question is misdirected. Try writing your Congress Person, or State Representatives. Also, try not to apply negative titles while addressing them, as your letter might end up in their circular file. Just FYI.
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P.S When did this thread turn into a flame war?
Errr...correction. This whole Forum Category is pretty much becoming one.(sad to say as it is)
The topic is debate and discuss, not argue and fight. Lets act like adults here and assume a little higher level of maturity than is being displayed.
There's no reason to be discriminatory or downright mean to anyone over a forum, take a step back and look at this in a larger scope of view. What exactly is this doing for you besides making your day that much more stressful? Nothing really, you have your beliefs and the person sitting 1000's of miles away form you on their computer has theirs.
Lets grow a pair here, man up, and continue Debating rather than breaking down and squabbling like 5 year old children, shall we?
K thanks. :) I have complete faith in everyone here.
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P.S When did this thread turn into a flame war?
Errr...correction. This whole Forum Category is pretty much becoming one.(sad to say as it is)
The topic is debate and discuss, not argue and fight. Lets act like adults here and assume a little higher level of maturity than is being displayed.
There's no reason to be discriminatory or downright mean to anyone over a forum, take a step back and look at this in a larger scope of view. What exactly is this doing for you besides making your day that much more stressful? Nothing really, you have your beliefs and the person sitting 1000's of miles away form you on their computer has theirs.
Lets grow a pair here, man up, and continue Debating rather than breaking down and squabbling like 5 year old children, shall we?
K thanks. :) I have complete faith in everyone here.
Your not saying anything others haven't said. However, some people on here don't know how to communicate effectively. Your fairly new here, and actually need to click on certain people's names, and read only their posts at a time. It will give you their last post, and next, next, on and on. This will give you a fairly good idea what issues have been discussed, and responses or rebuttals. Welcome to the Forum. Good to have you here.
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P.S When did this thread turn into a flame war?
Errr...correction. This whole Forum Category is pretty much becoming one.(sad to say as it is)
The topic is debate and discuss, not argue and fight. Lets act like adults here and assume a little higher level of maturity than is being displayed.
There's no reason to be discriminatory or downright mean to anyone over a forum, take a step back and look at this in a larger scope of view. What exactly is this doing for you besides making your day that much more stressful? Nothing really, you have your beliefs and the person sitting 1000's of miles away form you on their computer has theirs.
Lets grow a pair here, man up, and continue Debating rather than breaking down and squabbling like 5 year old children, shall we?
K thanks. :) I have complete faith in everyone here.
Your not saying anything others haven't said. However, some people on here don't know how to communicate effectively. Your fairly new here, and actually need to click on certain people's names, and read only their posts at a time. It will give you their last post, and next, next, on and on. This will give you a fairly good idea what issues have been discussed, and responses or rebuttals. Welcome to the Forum. Good to have you here.
Oh now now. You give me too little credit. ;)
This isn't my first Forum Rodeo, and won't be my last. Some people come off as harsh and abrasive and that is how they express themselves. Some people take this harshness to heart and get hurt over it. If we all mellow out and try and stifle those nasty habits, whatever they may be, we can collectively create a much more peaceful and enjoyable forum for everyone.
There really isn't any other way around that.
P.S I lurked for a while before I posted anything. So I know more than you may think. ;D
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I don't have to travel any where. Many of my Relations are "legally banned" from practicing their Spirituality right here in this country, today.
Of course, you don't want to respond to that eh Rev. Bigot?
Must be something your doing in your practices that make them "legally banned". Since I don't write the laws of this Nation, your question is misdirected. Try writing your Congress Person, or State Representatives. Also, try not to apply negative titles while addressing them, as your letter might end up in their circular file. Just FYI.
Not at all, some NDNs are allowed to participate in certain ceremonies and others are not allowed to participate in the identical ceremony. Also as I have repeatedly stated on this site some NDNs are allowed to posses certain spiritual items and other NDNs are forbidden to posses the same item. And....the ones who are allowed to practice our spiritual traditions were only allowed the right with the Native American Religious Freedoms Act of Aug. 11, 1978
http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=native+american+religious+freedoms+act&fr=chrf-ytbm&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=native+american+religious+freedoms+act&d=4742799371667661&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=c5d311b4,2fb35a28&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=vKn7Le0x5JM4R49r9hqE0w--
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My dog and myself wouldn't be discriminated against in the workplace of Animal photography. Should I be allowed to marry her? Hell no.
Your dog can't consent like a human can. ;)
My sister wouldn't be discriminated against. Is she a viable option for me now too?
Actually, you're allowed to marry your first cousin in many U.S. States! Weird, eh? But it comes down to the issue of birth defects for any future children you might have...
I want 10 wives. Is that cool?
Muslims are allowed to engage in polygamy in Europe. No one else, mind you. In any event, I personally don't have a problem with you having 10 wives, so long as they are all consenting. The only issue I can think of is fairness when it comes to tax and legal benefits.
Is it okay if one of those 10 is 15?
Well that used to be the norm. ;) But age of consent is the issue here. Nothing against people's wills!
It just opens up a metaphorical Pandora's Box for all other sorts of marriage that should not be going on.
I understand your point, but do you feel the guideline of consenting, human adults would suffice?
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My dog and myself wouldn't be discriminated against in the workplace of Animal photography. Should I be allowed to marry her? Hell no.
Your dog can't consent like a human can. ;)
My sister wouldn't be discriminated against. Is she a viable option for me now too?
Actually, you're allowed to marry your first cousin in many U.S. States! Weird, eh? But it comes down to the issue of birth defects for any future children you might have...
I want 10 wives. Is that cool?
Muslims are allowed to engage in polygamy in Europe. No one else, mind you. In any event, I personally don't have a problem with you having 10 wives, so long as they are all consenting. The only issue I can think of is fairness when it comes to tax and legal benefits.
Is it okay if one of those 10 is 15?
Well that used to be the norm. ;) But age of consent is the issue here. Nothing against people's wills!
It just opens up a metaphorical Pandora's Box for all other sorts of marriage that should not be going on.
I understand your point, but do you feel the guideline of consenting, human adults would suffice?
Are you sure? I mean i REALLLLY love my dog. And you mean her wagging her tail isn't consent? ;) lol.
And are you really going to say you don't have a problem with polygamists? (You'd be the first female I'd heard of to say so, even I think its raunchy)
I suppose it honestly boils down to what the majority of the population believes is morally and ethically acceptable in our society. (Reference illegal drug methodology I.E a majority deem it not okay, so the minority gets to put up with it, or seek less legal methods)
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I suppose it honestly boils down to what the majority of the population believes is morally and ethically acceptable in our society.
Lol, this is exactly what I said! In another topic about morality, she said the majority decides morality. I guess when the majority is in disagreement with her, it's no longer acceptable :P
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P.S When did this thread turn into a flame war?
Errr...correction. This whole Forum Category is pretty much becoming one.(sad to say as it is)
The topic is debate and discuss, not argue and fight. Lets act like adults here and assume a little higher level of maturity than is being displayed.
There's no reason to be discriminatory or downright mean to anyone over a forum, take a step back and look at this in a larger scope of view. What exactly is this doing for you besides making your day that much more stressful? Nothing really, you have your beliefs and the person sitting 1000's of miles away form you on their computer has theirs.
Lets grow a pair here, man up, and continue Debating rather than breaking down and squabbling like 5 year old children, shall we?
K thanks. :) I have complete faith in everyone here.
Your not saying anything others haven't said. However, some people on here don't know how to communicate effectively. Your fairly new here, and actually need to click on certain people's names, and read only their posts at a time. It will give you their last post, and next, next, on and on. This will give you a fairly good idea what issues have been discussed, and responses or rebuttals. Welcome to the Forum. Good to have you here.
Oh now now. You give me too little credit. ;)
This isn't my first Forum Rodeo, and won't be my last. Some people come off as harsh and abrasive and that is how they express themselves. Some people take this harshness to heart and get hurt over it. If we all mellow out and try and stifle those nasty habits, whatever they may be, we can collectively create a much more peaceful and enjoyable forum for everyone.
There really isn't any other way around that.
P.S I lurked for a while before I posted anything. So I know more than you may think. ;D
:thumbsup:
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I don't have to travel any where. Many of my Relations are "legally banned" from practicing their Spirituality right here in this country, today.
Of course, you don't want to respond to that eh Rev. Bigot?
Must be something your doing in your practices that make them "legally banned". Since I don't write the laws of this Nation, your question is misdirected. Try writing your Congress Person, or State Representatives. Also, try not to apply negative titles while addressing them, as your letter might end up in their circular file. Just FYI.
Not at all, some NDNs are allowed to participate in certain ceremonies and others are not allowed to participate in the identical ceremony. Also as I have repeatedly stated on this site some NDNs are allowed to posses certain spiritual items and other NDNs are forbidden to posses the same item. And....the ones who are allowed to practice our spiritual traditions were only allowed the right with the Native American Religious Freedoms Act of Aug. 11, 1978
http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=native+american+religious+freedoms+act&fr=chrf-ytbm&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=native+american+religious+freedoms+act&d=4742799371667661&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=c5d311b4,2fb35a28&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=vKn7Le0x5JM4R49r9hqE0w--
While I understand your frustration. I have absolutely no power to change what you perceive is happening to your people. Also, addressing me in negative titles, does nothing to endear me to your plight. Have a good evening.
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I don't have to travel any where. Many of my Relations are "legally banned" from practicing their Spirituality right here in this country, today.
Of course, you don't want to respond to that eh Rev. Bigot?
Must be something your doing in your practices that make them "legally banned". Since I don't write the laws of this Nation, your question is misdirected. Try writing your Congress Person, or State Representatives. Also, try not to apply negative titles while addressing them, as your letter might end up in their circular file. Just FYI.
Not at all, some NDNs are allowed to participate in certain ceremonies and others are not allowed to participate in the identical ceremony. Also as I have repeatedly stated on this site some NDNs are allowed to posses certain spiritual items and other NDNs are forbidden to posses the same item. And....the ones who are allowed to practice our spiritual traditions were only allowed the right with the Native American Religious Freedoms Act of Aug. 11, 1978
http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=native+american+religious+freedoms+act&fr=chrf-ytbm&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=native+american+religious+freedoms+act&d=4742799371667661&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=c5d311b4,2fb35a28&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=vKn7Le0x5JM4R49r9hqE0w--
While I understand your frustration. I have absolutely no power to change what you perceive is happening to your people. Also, addressing me in negative titles, does nothing to endear me to your plight. Have a good evening.
You do the same.
"Love the sinner" eh? ;)
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I don't have to travel any where. Many of my Relations are "legally banned" from practicing their Spirituality right here in this country, today.
Of course, you don't want to respond to that eh Rev. Bigot?
Must be something your doing in your practices that make them "legally banned". Since I don't write the laws of this Nation, your question is misdirected. Try writing your Congress Person, or State Representatives. Also, try not to apply negative titles while addressing them, as your letter might end up in their circular file. Just FYI.
Not at all, some NDNs are allowed to participate in certain ceremonies and others are not allowed to participate in the identical ceremony. Also as I have repeatedly stated on this site some NDNs are allowed to posses certain spiritual items and other NDNs are forbidden to posses the same item. And....the ones who are allowed to practice our spiritual traditions were only allowed the right with the Native American Religious Freedoms Act of Aug. 11, 1978
http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=native+american+religious+freedoms+act&fr=chrf-ytbm&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=native+american+religious+freedoms+act&d=4742799371667661&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=c5d311b4,2fb35a28&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=vKn7Le0x5JM4R49r9hqE0w--
While I understand your frustration. I have absolutely no power to change what you perceive is happening to your people. Also, addressing me in negative titles, does nothing to endear me to your plight. Have a good evening.
You do the same.
"Love the sinner" eh? ;)
Even when they try their best to be unlovable. :heart:
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P.S When did this thread turn into a flame war?
Errr...correction. This whole Forum Category is pretty much becoming one.(sad to say as it is)
The topic is debate and discuss, not argue and fight. Lets act like adults here and assume a little higher level of maturity than is being displayed.
There's no reason to be discriminatory or downright mean to anyone over a forum, take a step back and look at this in a larger scope of view. What exactly is this doing for you besides making your day that much more stressful? Nothing really, you have your beliefs and the person sitting 1000's of miles away form you on their computer has theirs.
Lets grow a pair here, man up, and continue Debating rather than breaking down and squabbling like 5 year old children, shall we?
K thanks. :) I have complete faith in everyone here.
There are some that can't quit the name calling when they respond. Let them begin the maturing...
???
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P.S When did this thread turn into a flame war?
Errr...correction. This whole Forum Category is pretty much becoming one.(sad to say as it is)
The topic is debate and discuss, not argue and fight. Lets act like adults here and assume a little higher level of maturity than is being displayed.
There's no reason to be discriminatory or downright mean to anyone over a forum, take a step back and look at this in a larger scope of view. What exactly is this doing for you besides making your day that much more stressful? Nothing really, you have your beliefs and the person sitting 1000's of miles away form you on their computer has theirs.
Lets grow a pair here, man up, and continue Debating rather than breaking down and squabbling like 5 year old children, shall we?
K thanks. :) I have complete faith in everyone here.
Thank you, that's what I've been trying to say (only to a couple, though.) There are a lot of fine, friendly debaters in here, both Christians and non-christians.
???
Scratch my post on this one above, please. I meant to say that there are some debaters that do the name calling instead of just responding or debating. Those people need to be the first ones to take the step to maturing. There are a couple who don't name call, but mostly ones that do are aiming it toward Christians.
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:cat: Walksalone, I can't stay passive on this, even though I did try. I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them. I thought you were a mature adult who could debate and converse without including the name calling. That doesn't get you anywhere, you know. It just makes you look immature and foolish that you are mocking other adults, especially since they are Christians. I realize you and I haven't really spoken much, other than the Indian threads, but I couldn't sit back and not take up for friends who do not deserve to be called those names. Thank you.
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:cat: Walksalone, I can't stay passive on this, even though I did try. I wish you would not call Annella and Sherna those sarcastic names when you talk to them. I thought you were a mature adult who could debate and converse without including the name calling. That doesn't get you anywhere, you know. It just makes you look immature and foolish that you are mocking other adults, especially since they are Christians. I realize you and I haven't really spoken much, other than the Indian threads, but I couldn't sit back and not take up for friends who do not deserve to be called those names. Thank you.
It's me and Mackenzie he's singled out.........not Sherene. Thank you for your words :heart:
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:cat: Walksalone, I can't stay passive on this, even though I did try. I wish you would not call Annella and Sherna those sarcastic names when you talk to them. I thought you were a mature adult who could debate and converse without including the name calling. That doesn't get you anywhere, you know. It just makes you look immature and foolish that you are mocking other adults, especially since they are Christians. I realize you and I haven't really spoken much, other than the Indian threads, but I couldn't sit back and not take up for friends who do not deserve to be called those names. Thank you.
It's me and Mackenzie he's singled out.........not Sherene. Thank you for your words :heart:
Yes, sorry about that. I had just gone in to modify it when your post popped in. I did go ahead and change it. Hang in there!!! :thumbsup: :heart:
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Annella is a strong lady! Love you :)
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:cat: Walksalone, I can't stay passive on this, even though I did try. I wish you would not call Annella and Sherna those sarcastic names when you talk to them. I thought you were a mature adult who could debate and converse without including the name calling. That doesn't get you anywhere, you know. It just makes you look immature and foolish that you are mocking other adults, especially since they are Christians. I realize you and I haven't really spoken much, other than the Indian threads, but I couldn't sit back and not take up for friends who do not deserve to be called those names. Thank you.
It's me and Mackenzie he's singled out.........not Sherene. Thank you for your words :heart:
Yes, sorry about that. I had just gone in to modify it when your post popped in. I did go ahead and change it. Hang in there!!! :thumbsup: :heart:
Annella is a strong lady! Love you :)
:heart:
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I'm glad i spur on much more dignified ways of conversing with each other. lol
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But some of the populous that voted for non-gay marriage is non-denominational, how does that make this purely a religious problem? It isn't purely denied because it is a sin to some religions.
I would totally agree with you if it was all one denomination of religion that voted this down and that was the clear and cut reason why they couldn't marry. I would absolutely 100% concede. But that's not the case a lot of people from a mass variety of religions voted it down(hell, I even know gay people that voted down Prop 8 in CA a few years back).
Non-denominational? Does that equate non-religious? And I don't recall saying it was a purely religious problem...my word was usually. However, you aren't showing us anything here to the contrary of it being a religious issue. How many denominations of religion are there that do not consider homosexuality a sin? I'm not talking about just Christians here...there are Jews and Muslims that are right on that bandwagon.
As for the Constitution reference. Is it just to tell a cocaine addict that they cant indulge in their habit because society has told them it is wrong? I'm sure they would absolutely love the liberty to snort/smoke wherever and whenever they like because that is how they pursue their happiness. But as a whole, the country decided to discriminate against these drug using people by making it a federal offense to possess or use such substances.
I find it to be reaching to use this as a comparison, because there is none. Cocaine is an addictive drug that results in the addict using whatever means necessary to continue to obtain and use the drug. I don't view making cocaine illegal as discrimination but as a valid preventative measure. Homosexual marriage is about two people who love each other wanting to have the same rights to be together as heterosexuals.
My dog and myself wouldn't be discriminated against in the workplace of Animal photography. Should I be allowed to marry her? Hell no.
My sister wouldn't be discriminated against. Is she a viable option for me now too?
I want 10 wives. Is that cool?
Is it okay if one of those 10 is 15?
It just opens up a metaphorical Pandora's Box for all other sorts of marriage that should not be going on. (Which is the argument for the other side, along with the "its a man and woman" hoo hah and all that other hum bug stuff)
I can't say I agree with polygamy (I think its quite squicky), but I have seen some polyamorous relationships where all seemed to be happy and getting it on from all around, and while all are consenting adults who recognize the risks of such relationships, then so be it. Same with people with "open marriages". Not something I want in my household, but whatever works for them doesn't have to work for me.
I find using bestiality, incest, and statutory rape, though, as being an offensive argument against homosexuality. Is that really the best argument the other side can come up with? Oh, well if homeboy over there wants to marry that *bleep* and do sexual stuff with it, then I should be able to do something with this here horse because it ain't no different. Whatever. That's weak. There are specific reasons against bestiality, incest, and statutory rape, including ability to consent and preventing birth defects.
Q: What is the legal definition of marriage?
A: Marriage is usually defined as a contract entered into by two people (a man and a woman) demonstrating their intent to be husband and wife in the eyes of the law. http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/marriage-basics/marriage-faq.html
There is also precedence in "common law" marriage, after a couple living together for so long receiving the same rights and responsibilities as those tying the knot in front of g-d, the JOP, and all to see, with their shiny signed piece of paper. So...why is it restricted to only heterosexuals? Why should male/male or female/female marriage not be going on?
Let's look back at the parts of the constitution I quoted:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The 9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
The law gives heteros the right to marry once they fulfill specific obligations (blood tests, licensing, etc.)...yet, homosexuals are denied. Maybe its a good thing I'm not sitting on the Supreme Court...sure seems to me to be a clear-cut interpretation of discrimination if I've ever seen one.
NOTE: I am not accusing anyone on here personally of discriminating!
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:cat: Walksalone, I can't stay passive on this, even though I did try. I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them. I thought you were a mature adult who could debate and converse without including the name calling. That doesn't get you anywhere, you know. It just makes you look immature and foolish that you are mocking other adults, especially since they are Christians. I realize you and I haven't really spoken much, other than the Indian threads, but I couldn't sit back and not take up for friends who do not deserve to be called those names. Thank you.
very much appreciated!!!
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I can't say I agree with polygamy (I think its quite squicky), but I have seen some polyamorous relationships where all seemed to be happy and getting it on from all around, and while all are consenting adults who recognize the risks of such relationships, then so be it. Same with people with "open marriages". Not something I want in my household, but whatever works for them doesn't have to work for me.
EXACTLY.
In other news, all of the Christians here have conveniently ignored answering my question of how exactly homosexuality is a choice. Refer back to the "devil tinkering one's brain" a few pages back.
We're all born with a certain set of likes/dislikes due to genes, and there's not much range in which we can change them. I have never liked the taste of cow's milk, for example. Does that mean I can "choose" to like it? Of course not. You can force me to drink it until the cows come home (lol), but I will always find it disgusting. I have no choice in the matter. The same thing goes for who people are attracted to.
Commence Sherna jumping on me because I said we're BORN with certain traits...therefore, we must have no free will! ::)
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In light of what you just wrote, queen, let me again add this from an earlier post of mine:
You believe that people are not ‘born gay’. Fine - I won’t waste any time educating you on the infinite number of genetic anomalies that occur and are the cause of gender confusion, mutation, etc.
It can't be found as truth in the Bible, so it does not exist. You hear or read things from people who are on the side of it being a choice, and because it is more comfortable for you to go with that, you do. You base your views of gays and their lifestyles on an archaic writing because it allows you all to stay within your own precious 'comfort zone'. The crucial evidence that supports it NOT being a choice is there, you are simply not buying into it and that makes me furious, as it does countless others.
You cannot presume to even remotely claim any understanding of it by doing a Google search, finding a few things to read, and then say, "Oh, I see, but it is purely a mistake or a misnomer on the part of science and genetics. They just say these things because they don't really have an answer, but they come from a place of some intelligence, so quite a few people will believe them. Besides, it's only an excuse they can use for the choices they make to be gay."
But let any one of you come to me with your child, your loved one, who is extremely ill and you want the answer as to why they are, what could have caused this, and what kind of options do we have here. So I begin the standard compiling of my SOAP notes in their chart (Subjective, Objective, Assessment, and Plan). When it started, what triggered it, order testing and workups, etc. - you all probably know how this works. So, after using all I have at my disposal, I come to you with my diagnosis and how I would normally treat accordingly. Well, you are in shock, to say the least, with what I tell you.
This is purely a fictional scenario, but I think you will see where I am going with it:
Your daughter/son has a fairly rare genetic anomaly/marker that would not have been known about until you brought her in. It’s NOT something that is a standard test done at birth and since we had no complications post natal, there was also no reason to run any but the standard procedural testing then. Unfortunately, your son/daughter chose to make bananas a part of their diet, which almost everyone knows is NOT a good choice and society looks down on it, but they were driven by something they had NO control over, so the bananas became something they made a part of their life. While this choice might be viewed as abominable by the Bible and religion at large, they simply could not stay away from bananas. Because of that rare genetic anomaly/marker forcing them, against all their willpower and the pleading/threatening of those who are close to them to just stop eating bananas, they now have a life threatening and as of now, incurable disease. You can’t believe it, you are feeling completely and utterly lost, and now begin the usual desperate pleadings to me/us to help them.
Turn this around. Your child is born with a genetic anomaly/marker of which you and they are totally unaware of. They choose to make the same sex the object of their affections, etc., etc., etc. and now, BOOM - I have to inform you they are HIV+/ have AIDS. I am willing to bet you would buy into it NOT being a choice IF the bananas were the cause of the disease that would kill them. You would, in a heartbeat, attribute it to genetics and not the fact they had no power over why they were drawn to bananas. The bible says drinking to drunkenness is a no-no. Alcohol kills thousands every day through diseases like cirrhosis of the liver, pancreatic cancer, diabetes, long painful deaths from wet brains, and traffic fatalities/shootings just to name a few. Drinking alcohol is a choice, but do you 'condemn' the alcoholic lifestyle, do you vote against alcohol being legal? No, you show pity on them. The fact that two people of the same sex together takes you so far out of your own comfort zone, you refuse to acknowledge that IT IS NOT a choice. But a bunch of bananas? You would find a way around that by any avenue possible. This comparison IS ridiculous, but I hope we all can see where I was trying to get with it.
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I researched some into this myself and found that there are proposed causes of homosexuality.. I'm only listing them, not saying that I am promoting them. This is courtesy of "Encyclopedia of Creation Science."
1. Genes as a cause: "the gene has not been identified, so this view is not science, but mere speculation; statistical studies give strong evidence that homosexuality is not caused by genetics, but is influenced by environment; even if there were a genetic causation to the behavior, that would not still not make it acceptable. We all have the predisposition to sin. Being genetically predisposed to a certain attribute does not make the attribute any less harmful. The real issue is not whether it is genetic, but whether it is harmful."
2. Environmental influences: "Many hold the view that early childhood experiences predispose people to homosexuality. From a very young age, a child's experiences gained from the environment allow a predisposition for homosexual practice; Very few would deny this is at least a contributor. The Bible states, "Raise a child in the ways of the Lord and he will not depart from it" Proverbs 22:6 (NKJV). In short, parents play an important role in influencing their children's choices. However, despite the effect of parents on their children, children are still responsible for their own actions. The environmental aspect triggers social behaviors within society that could in part be the origin of what scientists call, the homosexuality gene. The fact that a child is socialized to be homosexual does not make the behavior any less tragic than a child that is socialized to be a sociopath"
3. Choice: "Most people of faith believe that homosexuality is a choice. Many recovering homosexuals describe their homosexuality as being caused by a combination of socialization and choice, and that their return to a healthy, heterosexual lifestyle was also the result of choice, self-discipline, and faith. "
I will add that the Bible is very clear on this issue of where it stands as regarding to sin.
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I can't say I agree with polygamy (I think its quite squicky), but I have seen some polyamorous relationships where all seemed to be happy and getting it on from all around, and while all are consenting adults who recognize the risks of such relationships, then so be it. Same with people with "open marriages". Not something I want in my household, but whatever works for them doesn't have to work for me.
EXACTLY.
In other news, all of the Christians here have conveniently ignored answering my question of how exactly homosexuality is a choice. Refer back to the "devil tinkering one's brain" a few pages back.
We're all born with a certain set of likes/dislikes due to genes, and there's not much range in which we can change them. I have never liked the taste of cow's milk, for example. Does that mean I can "choose" to like it? Of course not. You can force me to drink it until the cows come home (lol), but I will always find it disgusting. I have no choice in the matter. The same thing goes for who people are attracted to.
Commence Sherna jumping on me because I said we're BORN with certain traits...therefore, we must have no free will! ::)
I've answered that question many times.
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Commence Sherna jumping on me because I said we're BORN with certain traits...therefore, we must have no free will!
You said it not me ;)....oh AND your husband said it, so go roll your eyes at him too :thumbsup:
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I've answered that question many times.
Really? All I've seen is everyone hammer it home that it's a "choice", but you've never explained HOW that works exactly. Is it just the devil tempting people, or not? If not, how else can you explain where homosexual attraction comes from if not by birth?
oh AND your husband said it, so go roll your eyes at him too
Yes, he and I disagree heavily on the subject. ;) Did you ever read the articles I posted on this awhile back? They explain my views on compatibilism quite well.
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In light of what you just wrote, queen, let me again add this from an earlier post of mine:
You believe that people are not ‘born gay’. Fine - I won’t waste any time educating you on the infinite number of genetic anomalies that occur and are the cause of gender confusion, mutation, etc.
It can't be found as truth in the Bible, so it does not exist. You hear or read things from people who are on the side of it being a choice, and because it is more comfortable for you to go with that, you do. You base your views of gays and their lifestyles on an archaic writing because it allows you all to stay within your own precious 'comfort zone'. The crucial evidence that supports it NOT being a choice is there, you are simply not buying into it and that makes me furious, as it does countless others.
You cannot presume to even remotely claim any understanding of it by doing a Google search, finding a few things to read, and then say, "Oh, I see, but it is purely a mistake or a misnomer on the part of science and genetics. They just say these things because they don't really have an answer, but they come from a place of some intelligence, so quite a few people will believe them. Besides, it's only an excuse they can use for the choices they make to be gay."
But let any one of you come to me with your child, your loved one, who is extremely ill and you want the answer as to why they are, what could have caused this, and what kind of options do we have here. So I begin the standard compiling of my SOAP notes in their chart (Subjective, Objective, Assessment, and Plan). When it started, what triggered it, order testing and workups, etc. - you all probably know how this works. So, after using all I have at my disposal, I come to you with my diagnosis and how I would normally treat accordingly. Well, you are in shock, to say the least, with what I tell you.
This is purely a fictional scenario, but I think you will see where I am going with it:
Your daughter/son has a fairly rare genetic anomaly/marker that would not have been known about until you brought her in. It’s NOT something that is a standard test done at birth and since we had no complications post natal, there was also no reason to run any but the standard procedural testing then. Unfortunately, your son/daughter chose to make bananas a part of their diet, which almost everyone knows is NOT a good choice and society looks down on it, but they were driven by something they had NO control over, so the bananas became something they made a part of their life. While this choice might be viewed as abominable by the Bible and religion at large, they simply could not stay away from bananas. Because of that rare genetic anomaly/marker forcing them, against all their willpower and the pleading/threatening of those who are close to them to just stop eating bananas, they now have a life threatening and as of now, incurable disease. You can’t believe it, you are feeling completely and utterly lost, and now begin the usual desperate pleadings to me/us to help them.
Turn this around. Your child is born with a genetic anomaly/marker of which you and they are totally unaware of. They choose to make the same sex the object of their affections, etc., etc., etc. and now, BOOM - I have to inform you they are HIV+/ have AIDS. I am willing to bet you would buy into it NOT being a choice IF the bananas were the cause of the disease that would kill them. You would, in a heartbeat, attribute it to genetics and not the fact they had no power over why they were drawn to bananas. The bible says drinking to drunkenness is a no-no. Alcohol kills thousands every day through diseases like cirrhosis of the liver, pancreatic cancer, diabetes, long painful deaths from wet brains, and traffic fatalities/shootings just to name a few. Drinking alcohol is a choice, but do you 'condemn' the alcoholic lifestyle, do you vote against alcohol being legal? No, you show pity on them. The fact that two people of the same sex together takes you so far out of your own comfort zone, you refuse to acknowledge that IT IS NOT a choice. But a bunch of bananas? You would find a way around that by any avenue possible. This comparison IS ridiculous, but I hope we all can see where I was trying to get with it.
Shows where my mind has been lately...when I read this, Jordandog, I couldn't stop laughing because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ1a0ymGCKA
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oh AND your husband said it, so go roll your eyes at him too
Yes, he and I disagree heavily on the subject. ;) Did you ever read the articles I posted on this awhile back? They explain my views on compatibilism quite well.
[/quote]
If you are referring to this:
http://www.atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/determinism-a-surrogate?xg_source=activity (also read the comments for more detail from the author)
http://www.atheistnexus.org/group/freewillanintelligentchoice/forum/topics/free-will-explained
Yes I did read it. However the author says this
In other words, we can (in our imagination) go where causality can't . . . and bring back conclusions that greatly affect our actions
The compatibilist view sees free will as natural and within the confines of physical laws.
But he doesn't explain HOW imagination is even possible if the mind is completely physical and HOW free will is natural within the confines of physical laws. The entire article is an attempt at rationalizing away an idea that you find uncomfortable without answering all aspects of the issue. If the mind is physical, imagination is an illusion. If the mind is physical, and subject to physical laws, you are a product of your genes and free will is an illusion.
If you are going to argue that gays didn't have choice, then the same concept says....I didn't have a choice but to believe in God and you didn't have a choice to not believe in God. Gays don't have a choice, criminals don't even have a choice. We are all a product of our genes and we don't make choices. Our selfish genes rule our lives in a fight for survival and there is no way to thwart them as Richard Dawkins and yourself would like to think.
As much as a gay person might want to thwart that homosexual gene, it "goes against their nature" right?
I give your husband enough credit to at least own up to the fact that he can't have it both ways.
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Shows where my mind has been lately...when I read this, Jordandog, I couldn't stop laughing because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ1a0ymGCKA
LOL! I admitted my analogy was a bit off the wall, but come on now, Amy..... ;D My little brother did the banana skit endlessly after that until my father threatened him.
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Shows where my mind has been lately...when I read this, Jordandog, I couldn't stop laughing because of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ1a0ymGCKA
LOL! I admitted my analogy was a bit off the wall, but come on now, Amy..... ;D My little brother did the banana skit endlessly after that until my father threatened him.
But...don't you know...some people put things that aren't bananas in their ears in order to keep from doing other things...
More proof of my mind being totally in the gutter, and not on topic!
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I've answered that question many times.
Really? All I've seen is everyone hammer it home that it's a "choice", but you've never explained HOW that works exactly. Is it just the devil tempting people, or not? If not, how else can you explain where homosexual attraction comes from if not by birth?
oh AND your husband said it, so go roll your eyes at him too
Yes, he and I disagree heavily on the subject. ;) Did you ever read the articles I posted on this awhile back? They explain my views on compatibilism quite well.
Here's my point- It has NOT been proven that they are born that way. You can't prove it so you can't convince me (as you are trying to ). In your words, if you're the one trying to do the convincing YOU have the burden of proof. I am NOT trying to convince you, just telling you why I think it's wrong. In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.
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Edit: Love the example, Jdog.
In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.
We've given you plenty of information on it not being a choice and how it's not an opinion since it's completely natural, and yet you still believe someone just goes "Okay I'm gay now cuz I feel like it"? There's massive amounts of logical information pointing to it not being a problem in society, that they have difficulty going against their nature (whether it be social upbringing and/or biological), and that it's seen everywhere in nature.
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In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.
We've given you plenty of information on it not being a choice and how it's not an opinion, and yet you still believe someone just goes "Okay I'm gay now cuz I feel like it"?
Sheesh, Falc. You must have a banana in your ear. ;)
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What's that, Amy? I can't hear you. I've got a banana in my ear!
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What's that, Amy? I can't hear you. I've got a banana in my ear!
HAHA! YESSSS! Just a few more posts, and I can declare I started a "thing"!!! With a little help from Ernie, of course. Here, fishy fishy fishy!
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The Ear Banana. I have an idea for a really weird sex toy.
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I researched some into this myself and found that there are proposed causes of homosexuality.. I'm only listing them, not saying that I am promoting them. This is courtesy of "Encyclopedia of Creation Science."
1. Genes as a cause: "the gene has not been identified, so this view is not science, but mere speculation; statistical studies give strong evidence that homosexuality is not caused by genetics, but is influenced by environment; even if there were a genetic causation to the behavior, that would not still not make it acceptable. We all have the predisposition to sin. Being genetically predisposed to a certain attribute does not make the attribute any less harmful. The real issue is not whether it is genetic, but whether it is harmful."
2. Environmental influences: "Many hold the view that early childhood experiences predispose people to homosexuality. From a very young age, a child's experiences gained from the environment allow a predisposition for homosexual practice; Very few would deny this is at least a contributor. The Bible states, "Raise a child in the ways of the Lord and he will not depart from it" Proverbs 22:6 (NKJV). In short, parents play an important role in influencing their children's choices. However, despite the effect of parents on their children, children are still responsible for their own actions. The environmental aspect triggers social behaviors within society that could in part be the origin of what scientists call, the homosexuality gene. The fact that a child is socialized to be homosexual does not make the behavior any less tragic than a child that is socialized to be a sociopath"
3. Choice: "Most people of faith believe that homosexuality is a choice. Many recovering homosexuals describe their homosexuality as being caused by a combination of socialization and choice, and that their return to a healthy, heterosexual lifestyle was also the result of choice, self-discipline, and faith. "
I will add that the Bible is very clear on this issue of where it stands as regarding to sin.
J cribb's post is really the best explanation I've seen on here. We all make life choices from infancy to adulthood that influence what we are today. Why are you agnostic falconer? Why are you atheist qon? Why are we Christian? We are what we chose to be.
I'll add something that is not her words, they are mine, so if you want to blast them....please refer your blasting to me. The Bible speaks of the enemy (devil). He is the influencer, of all things evil. His job description is to steal, kill, and destroy. This is the force at work in the world perverting whatever God made to be good. If we go against God's laws, we put ourselves in a dangerous place to follow the other side. Temptation, when yielded to once, is easier to yield to again. We serve God, because He gives us the power to live above sin, and the temptation of the enemy.
Of course you have to believe in the Bible...............
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J cribb's post is really the best explanation I've seen on here. We all make life choices from infancy to adulthood that influence what we are today. Why are you agnostic falconer? Why are you atheist qon? Why are we Christian? We are what we chose to be.
I'll add something that is not her words, they are mine, so if you want to blast them....please refer your blasting to me. The Bible speaks of the enemy (devil). He is the influencer, of all things evil. His job description is to steal, kill, and destroy. This is the force at work in the world perverting whatever God made to be good. If we go against God's laws, we put ourselves in a dangerous place to follow the other side. Temptation, when yielded to once, is easier to yield to again. We serve God, because He gives us the power to live above sin, and the temptation of the enemy.
Of course you have to believe in the Bible...............
Well let me just mention that using a "creation science encyclopedia" probably won't float if you're trying to convince anyone but your religious followers. The genetic variable is definately not rock-solid, but it's still intiguing. Hormones are definitely pushing as proof as studies even now have shown it has influence on sexual orientation. Social influences? Sure. The problem here is obviously the rational vs. irrational. If you're going to put something seen throughout the animal kingdom, has some positive effects on society, and above all making the individual feel comfortable with who they are against some evil cosmic mythical antagonist making you do it and making you think you're sinning and that you'll go to hell if you don't change, there's a huge problem here.
Why are you agnostic falconer?
I read the bible.
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Quote from Falconer:
Well let me just mention that using a "creation science encyclopedia" probably won't float if you're trying to convince anyone but your religious followers.
Falconer, come on, now. Your first sentence in your response already cuts down the site I researched from - that is not being fair. I looked at several sites and this particular one just seemed to be the best one to lay out probable causes. Right away, from the source name, you balk at it. However, I am glad you did break it down and debate your honest opinions about the different causes/reasons. If you had just responded that way without the cut, it would have been less discriminatory.
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Lol okay okay...my whole point in that was if you're going to try to convince somebody, you'd better try using other sources other than ones specifically pointing to your own. I reflect the George Washington thing from earlier or the whole Mein Kampf example from long ago.
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Lol okay okay...my whole point in that was if you're going to try to convince somebody, you'd better try using other sources other than ones specifically pointing to your own. I reflect the George Washington thing from earlier or the whole Mein Kampf example from long ago.
Thank you, Falconer. I did research several sites - this one just laid it out more sensible. To be honest, when I was looking at the different sites, I didn't pay much attention to the resources until getting ready to post/quote. Maybe I should have also used another site with it, to show fairness? I'll try harder next time.
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Edit: Love the example, Jdog.
In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.
We've given you plenty of information on it not being a choice and how it's not an opinion since it's completely natural, and yet you still believe someone just goes "Okay I'm gay now cuz I feel like it"? There's massive amounts of logical information pointing to it not being a problem in society, that they have difficulty going against their nature (whether it be social upbringing and/or biological), and that it's seen everywhere in nature.
It has absolutely not been proven that it comes with birth. I've done my research. It's simply not been proven, maybe one day it will be and I can say my opinion was wrong, doubt it though.
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I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?
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I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?
Good question.....
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I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?
exactly. men and women complete each other. a woman is like a cd to a man's cd player. can you listen to music with no cds but two cd players?
Here's my opinion, if you want to be gay, fine. It dosen't effect me. Everyone should do what makes them happy. gay marriage shouldn't be an issue. We have bigger things to worry about than trying to stop people from expressing themselves.
All you people who take the bible literally know that it says homosexuality is an abomination. also god made adam and eve not adam and steve (i think i've used that line before).
And if someone likes animals are they born that way? you are born in no "way". can somene really argue that man and woman don't complete each other, and that a man can complete another man? no. it may FEEL that way but no. a man may understand another man better but thats what friends are for, you don't go marry the guy over it.
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J cribb's post is really the best explanation I've seen on here. We all make life choices from infancy to adulthood that influence what we are today. Why are you agnostic falconer? Why are you atheist qon? Why are we Christian? We are what we chose to be.
I'll add something that is not her words, they are mine, so if you want to blast them....please refer your blasting to me. The Bible speaks of the enemy (devil). He is the influencer, of all things evil. His job description is to steal, kill, and destroy. This is the force at work in the world perverting whatever God made to be good. If we go against God's laws, we put ourselves in a dangerous place to follow the other side. Temptation, when yielded to once, is easier to yield to again. We serve God, because He gives us the power to live above sin, and the temptation of the enemy.
Of course you have to believe in the Bible...............
Well let me just mention that using a "creation science encyclopedia" probably won't float if you're trying to convince anyone but your religious followers. The genetic variable is definately not rock-solid, but it's still intiguing. Hormones are definitely pushing as proof as studies even now have shown it has influence on sexual orientation. Social influences? Sure. The problem here is obviously the rational vs. irrational. If you're going to put something seen throughout the animal kingdom, has some positive effects on society, and above all making the individual feel comfortable with who they are against some evil cosmic mythical antagonist making you do it and making you think you're sinning and that you'll go to hell if you don't change, there's a huge problem here.
Why are you agnostic falconer?
I read the bible.
I had no doubt.
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It has absolutely not been proven that it comes with birth. I've done my research. It's simply not been proven, maybe one day it will be and I can say my opinion was wrong, doubt it though.
If you're saying they're not born with that attraction, I agree with you. But I will say that I strongly believe that there is something within the body that can click on during maturity- they were born with the software that installs itself later in life. Interactions with the bodies biological, psychological, and social aspects all show evidences of contributing to it, so it's perfectly natural (ie not a choice) and does not need to be deemed evil.
I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?
I think the main variable we should focus on with this question is how it can affect others. Does a man walking into a 7/11 and killing the clerk over 100 bucks go on par with some innocent who just prefers the company of the same sex? You may accuse me of skipping the question completely, but I believe that question alone is too philosophically broad to just use in one aspect.
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So forget about whether a person is genetically determined to be a killer, it's not their fault they were born that way but, it doesn't matter because killing is wrong. But gays, they don't hurt anyone so they are allowed to be what they were born to be.
You guys are picking and choosing what gets to be defined as choice and what isn't. If homosexuality isn't a choice because it's in their genes, that fits in perfectly with your physicalist mindset! Great! But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha! :P
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I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?
I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin. I, however, disagree with you. Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins. Let's take a look at murder here. Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Murder is a crime, because it is denying someone their life. You could even say it was quite a horrible sin because it involves a person making a decision as to when another person's life should end, a choice that should be left up to only g-d. There are people who are born with this type of behavior called sociopaths. These people are most definitely held accountable for their choices.
Now, on the other hand, we have homosexuals, who feel a natural (natural, as in all of animalia partakes in homosexual activity) inclination to desire sexually and love a member of their same gender. They feel this inclination so strongly (whether or not they were born with that inclination) that they wish to devote their lives to living and loving this other, granted same gender, person and the other person feels the same way. Should they be punished for this? How else could you view holding them accountable for their choices?
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So forget about whether a person is genetically determined to be a killer, it's not their fault they were born that way but, it doesn't matter because killing is wrong. But gays, they don't hurt anyone so they are allowed to be what they were born to be.
You guys are picking and choosing what gets to be defined as choice and what isn't. If homosexuality isn't a choice because it's in their genes, that fits in perfectly with your physicalist mindset! Great! But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha! :P
Exactly!!
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So forget about whether a person is genetically determined to be a killer, it's not their fault they were born that way but, it doesn't matter because killing is wrong. But gays, they don't hurt anyone so they are allowed to be what they were born to be.
You guys are picking and choosing what gets to be defined as choice and what isn't. If homosexuality isn't a choice because it's in their genes, that fits in perfectly with your physicalist mindset! Great! But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha! :P
Exactly!!
There is a difference between murder, though, and homosexuality.
EDIT: And I would believe that g-d agrees, considering murder is very clearly outlined in the 10 Commandments, and homosexuality is only alluded to in scripture, scripture that is up to interpretation. There is no other interpretation to "Thou Shalt Not Kill" other than killin' people be wrong, yo.
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I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?
I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin. I, however, disagree with you. Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins. Let's take a look at murder here. Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Murder is a crime, because it is denying someone their life. You could even say it was quite a horrible sin because it involves a person making a decision as to when another person's life should end, a choice that should be left up to only g-d. There are people who are born with this type of behavior called sociopaths. These people are most definitely held accountable for their choices.
Now, on the other hand, we have homosexuals, who feel a natural (natural, as in all of animalia partakes in homosexual activity) inclination to desire sexually and love a member of their same gender. They feel this inclination so strongly (whether or not they were born with that inclination) that they wish to devote their lives to living and loving this other, granted same gender, person and the other person feels the same way. Should they be punished for this? How else could you view holding them accountable for their choices?
Wait a minute Amy. I was blasted earlier because I called it a sin, and was told all sin is sin. Murder, lying, etc., is all sin, there is no one greater than the other.
Here again we're going in a circle with the "natural" argument.
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Going with an opportunity to choose as the choice-definition, I do not believe homosexuals get a choice in the matter-- bisexuality is another story obviously but even they don't get the choice to be attracted to just one sex. Similarly how I don't get a choice to like females or not or Annella gets a choice to like men.
But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha!
As I stated in my last post, it's not just genes though (and even the gene argument is inconclusive, but Jdog brought up some majorly good points). Though I never really put much weight on the strictly-gene argument either.
Murder, lying, etc., is all sin, there is no one greater than the other.
Because we all know that Charles Manson is right on par with that little kid who lies about his uncle working for Nintendo.
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I'd like to know where it ends then? When do we start becoming accountable for our choices instead of saying 'we were born this way'?
I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin. I, however, disagree with you. Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins. Let's take a look at murder here. Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Murder is a crime, because it is denying someone their life. You could even say it was quite a horrible sin because it involves a person making a decision as to when another person's life should end, a choice that should be left up to only g-d. There are people who are born with this type of behavior called sociopaths. These people are most definitely held accountable for their choices.
Now, on the other hand, we have homosexuals, who feel a natural (natural, as in all of animalia partakes in homosexual activity) inclination to desire sexually and love a member of their same gender. They feel this inclination so strongly (whether or not they were born with that inclination) that they wish to devote their lives to living and loving this other, granted same gender, person and the other person feels the same way. Should they be punished for this? How else could you view holding them accountable for their choices?
Wait a minute Amy. I was blasted earlier because I called it a sin, and was told all sin is sin. Murder, lying, etc., is all sin, there is no one greater than the other.
Here again we're going in a circle with the "natural" argument.
Ok...forget the natural part. "Homosexuals who feel an inclination to desire sexually and love a member of their same gender. They feel this inclination so strongly that they wish to devote their lives to living and loving this other person who feels the same way." Should they be punished for this, whether or not it is a choice? They are therefore sinning by loving someone.
It may say in some scriptural interpretation that all sin is sin. However, murder is a sin that was so big it made it to the top ten and was clearly written as such. You know my opinion on scripture regarding homosexuality in the bible is that it is open to interpretation.
I don't see how homosexuality and murder can be equated. One is a "sin" regarding love, and another is about power and hatred. I don't see how a g-d of love would condemn someone for loving someone, genuinely loving someone. Jesus loved and healed the lepers even though "he wasn't supposed to." How is love wrong?
NOTE: I am not attacking you, Annella! I am just trying to understand and to put into words how I feel. I am sorry if this comes across differently.
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I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin. I, however, disagree with you. Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins. Let's take a look at murder here. Thou Shalt Not Kill.
You can disagree but, God does not measure sin from small to big. As a matter fact the bible says that hating your brother is murdering him! God puts hate and murder on the same level. You hating someone may never effect them!
Sin is sin, we don't get to decide which is the worst. Is homosexuality different than murder? Yes. But when we are talking about it in regards to sin, it isn't. My gossiping is just as much a sin as being a homosexual! Shame on me, thank God for His grace!
But you want to say, hey this isn't their choice, they were born this way. Okay, a murderer didn't have a choice, they were born to murder people, a rapist...they didn't make a choice to rape, their genes made them do it, they were born to rape somebody.
I was born to be a Christian, You were born to be a Jew, nobody is wrong, nobody is right, we are just born the way we are born right? Nobody should be held accountable because we didn't choose to be this way. We were born this way.
Sounds like a bunch of rubbish to me but apparently, according to some of the "born gay" defenders here...it's all about genes! So where do you draw the line between what is a choice and what isn't? And who has the authority to draw that line?
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Going with an opportunity to choose as the choice-definition, I do not believe homosexuals get a choice in the matter-- bisexuality is another story obviously but even they don't get the choice to be attracted to just one sex. Similarly how I don't get a choice to like females or not or Annella gets a choice to like men.
But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha!
As I stated in my last post, it's not just genes though. And I never really put much weight on the strictly-gene argument either.
Murder, lying, etc., is all sin, there is no one greater than the other.
Because we all know that Charles Manson is right on par with that little kid who lies about his uncle working for Nintendo.
Okay, go and split hairs about Manson and the little kid. However, sin is sin. Some sins have more retribution, or consequences of that sin.
Unfortunately some sins can affect others around us to the point that we have not just sinned against our own selves, but involved someone else in our original sin, and caused them to fall also.
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WE HAVE FREE WILL! Until it comes to sexuality :confused1:
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WE HAVE FREE WILL! Until it comes to sexuality :confused1:
Yeah right ???
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I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin. I, however, disagree with you. Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins. Let's take a look at murder here. Thou Shalt Not Kill.
You can disagree but, God does not measure sin from small to big. As a matter fact the bible says that hating your brother is murdering him! God puts hate and murder on the same level. You hating someone may never effect them!
Sin is sin, we don't get to decide which is the worst. Is homosexuality different than murder? Yes. But when we are talking about it in regards to sin, it isn't. My gossiping is just as much a sin as being a homosexual! Shame on me, thank God for His grace!
But you want to say, hey this isn't their choice, they were born this way. Okay, a murderer didn't have a choice, they were born to murder people, a rapist...they didn't make a choice to rape, their genes made them do it, they were born to rape somebody.
I was born to be a Christian, You were born to be a Jew, nobody is wrong, nobody is right, we are just born the way we are born right? Nobody should be held accountable because we didn't choose to be this way. We were born this way.
Sounds like a bunch of rubbish to me but apparently, according to some of the "born gay" defenders here...it's all about genes! So where do you draw the line between what is a choice and what isn't? And who has the authority to draw that line?
Actually this post of Sherene's explains it to a "T".
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This is where we draw the line...when our hatred of the sin pervades the minds of these bullies to push this young man this far: http://news.lalate.com/2010/09/28/asher-brown-bullied-to-death-at-13/
I made a choice to be Jewish; I was born to love my husband.
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This is where we draw the line...when our hatred of the sin pervades the minds of these bullies to push this young man this far: http://news.lalate.com/2010/09/28/asher-brown-bullied-to-death-at-13/
I made a choice to be Jewish; I was born to love my husband.
What constitutes making a choice and being "born" with a genetic disposition that determines things in your life? Do you have a gene that has your husbands name on it, and there was no way you couldn't NOT love him? But your faith is exempt from this predetermined fate? There was no ruling gene that says you had to be a Jew at some point in your life?
You are picking and choosing what is choice and what isn't. What are the rules?
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This is where we draw the line...when our hatred of the sin pervades the minds of these bullies to push this young man this far: http://news.lalate.com/2010/09/28/asher-brown-bullied-to-death-at-13/
I made a choice to be Jewish; I was born to love my husband.
I guess this poor kid's sin of his sexuality was just as bad as the one committed by those who bullied him...
We draw the line in how we talk about it, whether or not it is a sin. The more homosexuality is bashed as a sin, the more people rail against it as unnatural or abnormal, the more it gives these punk kids the idea that it is okay to treat some kid like Asher Brown as a substandard human being. I'm not saying that the belief that homosexuality is a sin caused his death...but, it played a role. Some poor 13 year old kid believed with his entire being that he was born to be a sinner and that he was going to face hatred like he faced in his school for the rest of his life and no one in authority was going to stand up for him or defend him...doesn't sound like a life worth living to me, either. And the view that he chose this? Especially since when he would fall in love in the future, that would be considered the wrong love as well? Sounds pretty far fetched to me.
Sorry for being so emotional in this post, but things like this upset me and cause this reaction.
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Why are there religious groups that say "God hates fags"?
Because there are many, many verses in the Bible that disapprove of it:
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. -- Leviticus 18:22
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- Leviticus 20:13
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a *bleep*, or the price of a dog [homosexual], into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God. -- Deuteronomy 23:18
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. -- Jude 7
Nevermind the fact that the Average Christian ignores HUNDREDS of other commandments from the Bible. They just want an excuse to be prejudiced, and that's why they emphasize Scriptures like these. In 10 years when same-sex marriage is legalized in all states, religious people will be FORCED to *change their doctrine* like they had to for black people a few decades back.
If God created humans and didn't want any of them to be gay why did he make some of them gay?
The Christian god doesn't exist because something that is perfect (god) cannot create something that is imperfect or has the ability to become imperfect (humans). It is a logical fallacy. Homosexuality is just an aspect of nature.
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I guess this poor kid's sin of his sexuality was just as bad as the one committed by those who bullied him...
You know why God doesn't measure sin like we do? Because there is no sin that cannot be forgiven. There is no sin that could make God not love you.
The sins we commit differ in how they affect other people. Would I prefer to be lied to rather than shot? Of course! But we are not talking about measuring how BAD it is, we are talking about whether or not it is sin, and there is no scale of measurement with God. If someone who has committed murder, falls to their knees crying out to him, God reaches into that person and forgives the ugliness in their life. He will do the same thing for any person regardless of any sin. That's why sin is sin, because forgiveness is forgiveness.
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So forget about whether a person is genetically determined to be a killer, it's not their fault they were born that way but, it doesn't matter because killing is wrong. But gays, they don't hurt anyone so they are allowed to be what they were born to be.
You guys are picking and choosing what gets to be defined as choice and what isn't. If homosexuality isn't a choice because it's in their genes, that fits in perfectly with your physicalist mindset! Great! But now you have to turn it on yourself and admit you don't have a choice either. You don't get to make choices about anything because your genes said so haha! :P
That's my point!
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I was born to be a Christian, You were born to be a Jew, nobody is wrong, nobody is right, we are just born the way we are born right? Nobody should be held accountable because we didn't choose to be this way. We were born this way.
Sounds like a bunch of rubbish to me but apparently, according to some of the "born gay" defenders here...it's all about genes! So where do you draw the line between what is a choice and what isn't? And who has the authority to draw that line?
very well put!!!
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I guess this poor kid's sin of his sexuality was just as bad as the one committed by those who bullied him...
You know why God doesn't measure sin like we do? Because there is no sin that cannot be forgiven. There is no sin that could make God not love you.
The sins we commit differ in how they affect other people. Would I prefer to be lied to rather than shot? Of course! But we are not talking about measuring how BAD it is, we are talking about whether or not it is sin, and there is no scale of measurement with God. If someone who has committed murder, falls to their knees crying out to him, God reaches into that person and forgives the ugliness in their life. He will do the same thing for any person regardless of any sin. That's why sin is sin, because forgiveness is forgiveness.
YES!!!
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I understand that you feel homosexuality is a sin that is on par with any other sin. I, however, disagree with you. Say its true that homosexuality is a sin (I don't believe it, but for sake of argument here), that sin does not seem to be on par with other sins. Let's take a look at murder here. Thou Shalt Not Kill.
You can disagree but, God does not measure sin from small to big. As a matter fact the bible says that hating your brother is murdering him! God puts hate and murder on the same level. You hating someone may never effect them!
Sin is sin, we don't get to decide which is the worst. Is homosexuality different than murder? Yes. But when we are talking about it in regards to sin, it isn't. My gossiping is just as much a sin as being a homosexual! Shame on me, thank God for His grace!
But you want to say, hey this isn't their choice, they were born this way. Okay, a murderer didn't have a choice, they were born to murder people, a rapist...they didn't make a choice to rape, their genes made them do it, they were born to rape somebody.
I was born to be a Christian, You were born to be a Jew, nobody is wrong, nobody is right, we are just born the way we are born right? Nobody should be held accountable because we didn't choose to be this way. We were born this way.
Sounds like a bunch of rubbish to me but apparently, according to some of the "born gay" defenders here...it's all about genes! So where do you draw the line between what is a choice and what isn't? And who has the authority to draw that line?
Wow, excellent points! :thumbsup:
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But you want to say, hey this isn't their choice, they were born this way. Okay, a murderer didn't have a choice, they were born to murder people, a rapist...they didn't make a choice to rape, their genes made them do it, they were born to rape somebody.
Does anyone here voice the "It's all the fault of genetics and nothing else!" argument? Maybe I missed it.
WE HAVE FREE WILL! Until it comes to sexuality
And eating, drinking, sleeping, waking, urinating, breathing, etc. Nature calls.
My gossiping is just as much a sin as being a homosexual!
Unfortunately some sins can affect others around us to the point that we have not just sinned against our own selves, but involved someone else in our original sin, and caused them to fall also.
I've seen lies benefit people very well though. And I've forgiven people for 'sinning' both shallowly and deeply against me. But you know what? I'm not even going to go into it or argue with this type of reasoning and I don't think anyone else should. These types of words speak mountains to people who don't believe the same logic pathways. If christians would just keep this type of reasoning within the confines of the religion and nothing more, I would have no issues here. Just keep it off the street, yo. Word.
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Quote from Falconer:
If christians would just keep this type of reasoning within the confines of the religion and nothing more, I would have no issues here. Just keep it off the street, yo. Word.
Then there would be no room for debate and no reason to have this forum. I don't think that's going to float well.
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Then there would be no room for debate and no reason to have this forum. I don't think that's going to float well.
It's just an opinion to keep the peace-- that type of religious reasoning is sure to spark circular arguments that we've had 50,000 times before. And of course there'd be plenty of other things to argue about!
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Quote from Falconer:
If christians would just keep this type of reasoning within the confines of the religion and nothing more, I would have no issues here. Just keep it off the street, yo. Word.
That's impossible for us, since we have been given that Great Commission by God. You don't want to be muzzled, so why should you restrict us to what you perceive as your acceptable parameters. Here again is the Freedom of Speech application.
More and more, I see this in D&D. You want your opinion heard, but not ours. ::)
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Basically any opinion on here is acceptable except ones that support Christianity, right?
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Basically any opinion on here is acceptable except ones that support Christianity, right?
Yup ;)
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Isn't the homosexual is a bad thing in the Old Testament?
My husband said yes in the Old Testament their is a scripture about how a man should not lay with another man.
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Here's my point- It has NOT been proven that they are born that way. You can't prove it so you can't convince me (as you are trying to ). In your words, if you're the one trying to do the convincing YOU have the burden of proof. I am NOT trying to convince you, just telling you why I think it's wrong. In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.
So...basically...you just totally avoided answering my question of WHY it's a choice. I stumped you, perhaps? Can't think of an explanation other than it's in a book that says it's bad? Well that STILL doesn't describe how it's a "choice".
We've already given you *our* "burden of proof" by explaining how we all know you can't help who you're attracted to and if you, as a straight person, can't choose to wake up one day and suddenly start liking the same sex, what makes you think ANYONE can?
And I think the non-religious side DOES convince you, you just don't want to admit it...it convinces you if you feel for your fellow human being and grasp that there is no rational argument against it. How do I know this? Because I was once a Christian having my morals spoon-fed to me as well.
Again, you have all the right to not approve of gays. But your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you.
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Why are you agnostic falconer?
I read the bible.
I second that! ;D
Because we all know that Charles Manson is right on par with that little kid who lies about his uncle working for Nintendo.
Exactly, lol. I don't know why believers keep saying, "All sins are the same!" That's just nonsense! NO THEY'RE NOT, and you know it! Quit sinning -- a.k.a. lying.
Brilliant posts, Falc! :thumbsup:
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We all make life choices from infancy to adulthood that influence what we are today.
Infancy? You really think a baby with mush for brains can make conscious decisions?
Why are you atheist qon? Why are we Christian? We are what we chose to be.
I chose to be a Christian, I chose to finally do my research to get out of said Christianity, but I did not choose to be an atheist. Given my new knowledge about god and Christianity, I had no choice but to be an atheist. To press on being a Christian knowing what I knew about the religion delusion would be like denying that the sky is blue.
Granted, you might not really have much of a choice being a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a child/have spent years investing in the false enterprise. If you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
The Bible speaks of the enemy (devil). He is the influencer, of all things evil. His job description is to steal, kill, and destroy.
Again, if you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
Religion has seriously convinced you that there's an invisible, evil bogeyman dude and his minions running around wreaking havoc and taking control of people's brains and bodies!!! How can you people not see how cuckoo this is??!!!
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Basically any opinion on here is acceptable except ones that support Christianity, right?
You don't want to be muzzled, so why should you restrict us to what you perceive as your acceptable parameters. Here again is the Freedom of Speech application.
Maybe I wrote it wrong, but no, my point wasn't the banishment of opinions here. My point is what Queen just stated-
"your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you."
Brilliant posts, Falc!
Danke, fraulein!
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Here's my point- It has NOT been proven that they are born that way. You can't prove it so you can't convince me (as you are trying to ). In your words, if you're the one trying to do the convincing YOU have the burden of proof. I am NOT trying to convince you, just telling you why I think it's wrong. In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.
So...basically...you just totally avoided answering my question of WHY it's a choice. I stumped you, perhaps? Can't think of an explanation other than it's in a book that says it's bad? Well that STILL doesn't describe how it's a "choice".
We've already given you *our* "burden of proof" by explaining how we all know you can't help who you're attracted to and if you, as a straight person, can't choose to wake up one day and suddenly start liking the same sex, what makes you think ANYONE can?
And I think the non-religious side DOES convince you, you just don't want to admit it...it convinces you if you feel for your fellow human being and grasp that there is no rational argument against it. How do I know this? Because I was once a Christian having my morals spoon-fed to me as well.
Again, you have all the right to not approve of gays. But your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you.
It's been explained, and come full circle more than once in this thread. This has been your MO. You ask the same question, but you word it differently, over and over again. You didn't "stump" anybody. Go back and read over the thread. Why should Mackenzie say the same thing over and over, the same answer. Or anybody else for that matter? Why it's a choice has been answered more than once in this thread, in every way it can be answered. You asking for more explanation again is redundant.
We are not going to dispute the Bible and it's truths just because you want a loophole. No, I can pretty much tell you for Mackenzie or any other Christian that the non-religious side did not convince us. To be honest, if we saw your side of it, we would be the first to admit it. Your saying things like "we gave you our burden of proof". Well.......so have we. You just don't like the answer we gave, so you keep coming at it, with a slightly different tact, but the same questions over and over again.
I don't see anywhere where Mackenzie said anything about Gay rights. She said she disagreed with the lifestyle. The place to make your voice heard about gay rights or anything in this country, is at the polling booth. We live in a Democracy, and that's where we can actually make a difference one way or the other.
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Why are you agnostic falconer?
I read the bible.
I second that! ;D
Because we all know that Charles Manson is right on par with that little kid who lies about his uncle working for Nintendo.
Exactly, lol. I don't know why believers keep saying, "All sins are the same!" That's just nonsense! NO THEY'RE NOT, and you know it! Quit sinning -- a.k.a. lying.
Brilliant posts, Falc! :thumbsup:
qon, this has all been covered before. Your going in circles.
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Quote from queenofnines:
Again, you have all the right to not approve of gays. But your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you.
It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
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Quote from queenofnines:
Religion has seriously convinced you that there's an invisible, evil bogeyman dude and his minions running around wreaking havoc and taking control of people's brains and bodies!!! How can you people not see how cuckoo this is??!!!
Actually, that statement sounds absolutely ridiculous and cuckoo in itself...
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im not much of a God person. But i believe the bible is hypocritical. It say one thing then states another. i cant give any examples because i no longer own a bible. But God wouldnt have made homosexuals if it was an abomination. If God is as perfect as his followers believe him to be then it doesnt matter the sexuality. They have a chance to get to heaven as the rest of them the way they are. Believe in whatever you choose, just dont dis the other persons beliefs. im sure the religions God wouldnt want that.
:peace:
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Quote from queenofnines:
I chose to be a Christian, I chose to finally do my research to get out of said Christianity, but I did not choose to be an atheist. Given my new knowledge about god and Christianity, I had no choice but to be an atheist. To press on being a Christian knowing what I knew about the religion delusion would be like denying that the sky is blue.
1. You CHOSE to be a Christian; CHOSE to do the research; CHOSE to get out of said Christianity; and you definitely CHOSE to go the atheist route - no denying that.
2. Scientifically speaking, the sky isn't really blue, it's black (we see it as blue because our atmosphere interacts with the sunlight passing through it-
and is known as "Rayleigh scattering."
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Quote from queenofnines:
Granted, you might not really have much of a choice being a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a child/have spent years investing in the false enterprise. If you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
What you posted is a perfect example of not accepting what we believe as Christians, with you looking down superiorly on us telling all who read how we are wrong in what we do. I may not want (choose) to be atheist, but I don't tell you that you don't think critically enough to make the "ONLY" choice that you would make. I'm not calling your atheist way a "false enterprise." Let the readers make up their own minds and do research with out you thumbing your nose down on the Christian choice.
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knowing what I knew about the religion delusion would be like denying that the sky is blue
Sometimes it's orange lol! :D
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i hate tupoc. or however you spell it.
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Quote from queenofnines:
Granted, you might not really have much of a choice being a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a child/have spent years investing in the false enterprise. If you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
What you posted is a perfect example of not accepting what we believe as Christians, with you looking down superiorly on us telling all who read how we are wrong in what we do. I may not want (choose) to be atheist, but I don't tell you that you don't think critically enough to make the "ONLY" choice that you would make. I'm not calling your atheist way a "false enterprise." Let the readers make up their own minds and do research with out you thumbing your nose down on the Christian choice.
She makes assumptions and states them as facts. Stating assertively that Christians only remain Christians because they don't think critically, is setting the parameter of the box by which an intellectually honest person is allowed to think within. This is what she learned when she was indoctrinated into atheist materialist thinking.
You won't be able to talk sense into her, I and probably many others have tried :angry7:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2ytraq0.jpg)
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Quote from queenofnines:
Granted, you might not really have much of a choice being a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a child/have spent years investing in the false enterprise. If you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
What you posted is a perfect example of not accepting what we believe as Christians, with you looking down superiorly on us telling all who read how we are wrong in what we do. I may not want (choose) to be atheist, but I don't tell you that you don't think critically enough to make the "ONLY" choice that you would make. I'm not calling your atheist way a "false enterprise." Let the readers make up their own minds and do research with out you thumbing your nose down on the Christian choice.
She makes assumptions and states them as facts. Stating assertively that Christians only remain Christians because they don't think critically, is setting the parameter of the box by which an intellectually honest person is allowed to think within. This is what she learned when she was indoctrinated into atheist materialist thinking.
You won't be able to talk sense into her, I and probably many others have tried :angry7:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2ytraq0.jpg)
That's pretty much it.
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Quote from queenofnines:
Granted, you might not really have much of a choice being a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a child/have spent years investing in the false enterprise. If you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
What you posted is a perfect example of not accepting what we believe as Christians, with you looking down superiorly on us telling all who read how we are wrong in what we do. I may not want (choose) to be atheist, but I don't tell you that you don't think critically enough to make the "ONLY" choice that you would make. I'm not calling your atheist way a "false enterprise." Let the readers make up their own minds and do research with out you thumbing your nose down on the Christian choice.
She makes assumptions and states them as facts. Stating assertively that Christians only remain Christians because they don't think critically, is setting the parameter of the box by which an intellectually honest person is allowed to think within. This is what she learned when she was indoctrinated into atheist materialist thinking.
You won't be able to talk sense into her, I and probably many others have tried :angry7:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2ytraq0.jpg)
Thanks, Sherna. I guess it provokes me into defending against those kinds of remarks because there are newbies that come in and others who come in and read these posts. Maybe there's no need to defend because when I actually stop and think about it, those readers should be able to spot hyprocritical posts from debating posts; in other words, they can tell when someone else makes our choices for us and doesn't allow for discussion. Your picture describes it perfectly.
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Here's my point- It has NOT been proven that they are born that way. You can't prove it so you can't convince me (as you are trying to ). In your words, if you're the one trying to do the convincing YOU have the burden of proof. I am NOT trying to convince you, just telling you why I think it's wrong. In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.
So...basically...you just totally avoided answering my question of WHY it's a choice. I stumped you, perhaps? Can't think of an explanation other than it's in a book that says it's bad? Well that STILL doesn't describe how it's a "choice".
We've already given you *our* "burden of proof" by explaining how we all know you can't help who you're attracted to and if you, as a straight person, can't choose to wake up one day and suddenly start liking the same sex, what makes you think ANYONE can?
And I think the non-religious side DOES convince you, you just don't want to admit it...it convinces you if you feel for your fellow human being and grasp that there is no rational argument against it. How do I know this? Because I was once a Christian having my morals spoon-fed to me as well.
Again, you have all the right to not approve of gays. But your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you.
No, you do NOT get to decide how or why I feel like I do- I do NOT have my morals spoon fed to me- and contrary to what you think I DO have a brain.
It IS a choice. I CHOSE to date the guy I am dating now. My parents chose to get married.
I have great connections with girls, my best friends. We are very close, like sisters. Am I going to jump in her pants? Absolutely not.
Why? I choose not to.
You don't believe in free will though right? Or something like that, so I understand why you don't think it's a choice.
I'm a firm believer in free will and all of us being held accountable for our choices.
You are just as closeminded as an atheist as you accuse us "closeminded Christians" of being- you just wont open you eyes and see it.
I am not going to say it again- it's a choice.
My proof? You choose to be with who you want to be with, I choose to be with who I want to be with, we all do every day.
Your "proof" is bogus and just backs up the fact that neither of our opinions have been officially proven- so your claim is opinion just as mine is.
BUT- as you have argued on many other threads, YOU have the burden of proof on this one.
So the next time I ask you to prove God doesn't exist and you tell me that I have the burden of proof- remember that you hypocritically aren't following that rule right here on this thread.
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We all make life choices from infancy to adulthood that influence what we are today.
Infancy? You really think a baby with mush for brains can make conscious decisions?
Why are you atheist qon? Why are we Christian? We are what we chose to be.
I chose to be a Christian, I chose to finally do my research to get out of said Christianity, but I did not choose to be an atheist. Given my new knowledge about god and Christianity, I had no choice but to be an atheist. To press on being a Christian knowing what I knew about the religion delusion would be like denying that the sky is blue.
Granted, you might not really have much of a choice being a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a child/have spent years investing in the false enterprise. If you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
The Bible speaks of the enemy (devil). He is the influencer, of all things evil. His job description is to steal, kill, and destroy.
Again, if you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
Religion has seriously convinced you that there's an invisible, evil bogeyman dude and his minions running around wreaking havoc and taking control of people's brains and bodies!!! How can you people not see how cuckoo this is??!!!
Actually you're the one who think controls people's brains and bodies, we believe in free will.
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Here's my point- It has NOT been proven that they are born that way. You can't prove it so you can't convince me (as you are trying to ). In your words, if you're the one trying to do the convincing YOU have the burden of proof. I am NOT trying to convince you, just telling you why I think it's wrong. In my opinion, it i a choice and it's wrong- I have a right to my opinion, you just cann't agree to disagree with anything I say because you disagree with my religion.
So...basically...you just totally avoided answering my question of WHY it's a choice. I stumped you, perhaps? Can't think of an explanation other than it's in a book that says it's bad? Well that STILL doesn't describe how it's a "choice".
We've already given you *our* "burden of proof" by explaining how we all know you can't help who you're attracted to and if you, as a straight person, can't choose to wake up one day and suddenly start liking the same sex, what makes you think ANYONE can?
And I think the non-religious side DOES convince you, you just don't want to admit it...it convinces you if you feel for your fellow human being and grasp that there is no rational argument against it. How do I know this? Because I was once a Christian having my morals spoon-fed to me as well.
Again, you have all the right to not approve of gays. But your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you.
It's been explained, and come full circle more than once in this thread. This has been your MO. You ask the same question, but you word it differently, over and over again. You didn't "stump" anybody. Go back and read over the thread. Why should Mackenzie say the same thing over and over, the same answer. Or anybody else for that matter? Why it's a choice has been answered more than once in this thread, in every way it can be answered. You asking for more explanation again is redundant.
We are not going to dispute the Bible and it's truths just because you want a loophole. No, I can pretty much tell you for Mackenzie or any other Christian that the non-religious side did not convince us. To be honest, if we saw your side of it, we would be the first to admit it. Your saying things like "we gave you our burden of proof". Well.......so have we. You just don't like the answer we gave, so you keep coming at it, with a slightly different tact, but the same questions over and over again.
I don't see anywhere where Mackenzie said anything about Gay rights. She said she disagreed with the lifestyle. The place to make your voice heard about gay rights or anything in this country, is at the polling booth. We live in a Democracy, and that's where we can actually make a difference one way or the other.
Perfect!
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Very well put, Mackenzie!!! A big, resounding "A-m-e-n!"
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im not much of a God person. But i believe the bible is hypocritical. It say one thing then states another. i cant give any examples because i no longer own a bible. But God wouldnt have made homosexuals if it was an abomination. If God is as perfect as his followers believe him to be then it doesnt matter the sexuality. They have a chance to get to heaven as the rest of them the way they are. Believe in whatever you choose, just dont dis the other persons beliefs. im sure the religions God wouldnt want that.
:peace:
True, and every sin can be forgiven. That won't, however, change our opinion that it's wrong. I think it's wrong to lie, doesn't mean I've never done it, but my God is a forgiving God.
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Quote from queenofnines:
Granted, you might not really have much of a choice being a Christian if you were indoctrinated as a child/have spent years investing in the false enterprise. If you never really picked up critical thinking or the ability to objectively analyze your motives, there's probably not much hope in escaping.
What you posted is a perfect example of not accepting what we believe as Christians, with you looking down superiorly on us telling all who read how we are wrong in what we do. I may not want (choose) to be atheist, but I don't tell you that you don't think critically enough to make the "ONLY" choice that you would make. I'm not calling your atheist way a "false enterprise." Let the readers make up their own minds and do research with out you thumbing your nose down on the Christian choice.
She makes assumptions and states them as facts. Stating assertively that Christians only remain Christians because they don't think critically, is setting the parameter of the box by which an intellectually honest person is allowed to think within. This is what she learned when she was indoctrinated into atheist materialist thinking.
You won't be able to talk sense into her, I and probably many others have tried :angry7:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/2ytraq0.jpg)
You hit the nail on the head.
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It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
Who puts the people who make the laws into power? YOU do.
Actually, that statement sounds absolutely ridiculous and cuckoo in itself...
Oh really? Is that not what your religion says?? Have you not seen your fellow believer proclaim that the devil tempts people and he and his demons rule this world? Because I sure have.
Yes it is ridiculous, but it IS what Christians believe on the whole. Why are you denying it??
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Quote from: jcribb16 on Today at 12:41:47 pm
It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
Quote from: queenofnines:
Who puts the people who make the laws into power? YOU do.
Who else put the people in who makes laws? YOU do, TOO.
Who wants to put people in to make laws to take God out of everything? YOU DO!
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Quote from jcribb:
Actually, that statement sounds absolutely ridiculous and cuckoo in itself...
Quote from queenofnines:
Oh really? Is that not what your religion says?? Have you not seen your fellow believer proclaim that the devil tempts people and he and his demons rule this world? Because I sure have.
Yes it is ridiculous, but it IS what Christians believe on the whole. Why are you denying it??
I am most certainly NOT denying it. But, as a Christian, we CHOOSE to let temptation overtake us or we CHOOSE to let God handle it for us. YOU are only focusing on the devil and what his cuckoo ideals are - why is that?
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Thanks, Sherna. I guess it provokes me into defending against those kinds of remarks because there are newbies that come in and others who come in and read these posts. Maybe there's no need to defend because when I actually stop and think about it, those readers should be able to spot hyprocritical posts from debating posts; in other words, they can tell when someone else makes our choices for us and doesn't allow for discussion. Your picture describes it perfectly.
If you want to defend against those remarks, I am here to defend your defense lol! Just don't expect too much change from people who hold so tightly to their unbelief. Only the Holy Spirit can penetrate that kind of mindset.
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1. You CHOSE to be a Christian; CHOSE to do the research; CHOSE to get out of said Christianity; and you definitely CHOSE to go the atheist route - no denying that.
2. Scientifically speaking, the sky isn't really blue, it's black (we see it as blue because our atmosphere interacts with the sunlight passing through it-
and is known as "Rayleigh scattering."
Obviously you all don't understand the difference between a choice and a free choice. Could I have gone on lying to myself, pretending to be a Christian? Technically yes. So in that sense, my deconversion was a "choice". But you are missing a big piece of reality if you think all choices are equal.
If you're held up at a bank, sure, you have the "choice" to not comply. But it's not a choice at all if your life is valuable to you. Choice involves VIABLE options.
Could a homosexual "choose" to repress his natural attractions? Technically yes. But the consequences could be devastating, as this "forced choice" goes against the very core of a person's internal makeup.
As for the sky thing, that is really petty, jcribb. I'm surprised you'd post something like that just to be arrogant. You knew what I meant by what I posted.
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It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
Who puts the people who make the laws into power? YOU do.
Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.
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Thanks, Sherna. I guess it provokes me into defending against those kinds of remarks because there are newbies that come in and others who come in and read these posts. Maybe there's no need to defend because when I actually stop and think about it, those readers should be able to spot hyprocritical posts from debating posts; in other words, they can tell when someone else makes our choices for us and doesn't allow for discussion. Your picture describes it perfectly.
If you want to defend against those remarks, I am here to defend your defense lol! Just don't expect too much change from people who hold so tightly to their unbelief. Only the Holy Spirit can penetrate that kind of mindset.
Thanks! I definitely understand and agree with that. I also want them to know that I (we) are not going to change or deviate from God to make their day, either. Normally, I am quiet and reserved. But when something presses my buttons (God, family, friends, etc.) there's something in me that says, "Enough nonsense, already. Let's get something straight, here..." Thanks for defending my defense! lol :)
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It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
Who puts the people who make the laws into power? YOU do.
Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.
:notworthy:
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1. You CHOSE to be a Christian; CHOSE to do the research; CHOSE to get out of said Christianity; and you definitely CHOSE to go the atheist route - no denying that.
2. Scientifically speaking, the sky isn't really blue, it's black (we see it as blue because our atmosphere interacts with the sunlight passing through it-
and is known as "Rayleigh scattering."
Obviously you all don't understand the difference between a choice and a free choice. Could I have gone on lying to myself, pretending to be a Christian? Technically yes. So in that sense, my deconversion was a "choice". But you are missing a big piece of reality if you think all choices are equal.
If you're held up at a bank, sure, you have the "choice" to not comply. But it's not a choice at all if your life is valuable to you. Choice involves VIABLE options.
Could a homosexual "choose" to repress his natural attractions? Technically yes. But the consequences could be devastating, as this "forced choice" goes against the very core of a person's internal makeup.
As for the sky thing, that is really petty, jcribb. I'm surprised you'd post something like that just to be arrogant. You knew what I meant by what I posted.
For one thing Jcribb is about the most un-arrogant person on this forum.
What I believe in the Bible of the enemy that is the prince of this world, is true. Here it is again.....I BELIEVE THE BIBLE....YOU DON"T. I won't argue the Word with you. It is what it is! Every time you don't like how a conversation is going (not in your favor), you pick something out and "fling" it out as ridiculous, etc. Or dissect the heck out of it. You strain at words, and they just come back and show how shallow your debating skills actually are.
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No, you do NOT get to decide how or why I feel like I do- I do NOT have my morals spoon fed to me-
You may not realize it, but it's quite possible. I know of lots of ex-Christians who secretly thought god's rules were faulty while putting on an air of agreeing with them.
and contrary to what you think I DO have a brain.
I never said you didn't...?
Am I going to jump in her pants? Absolutely not.
Why? I choose not to.
So you're saying the ONLY thing that's stopping you from pursuing lesbian relationships is mere choice? It has nothing to do with the fact that, I don't know...you're not sexually or emotionally attracted to them like you are with men?
You don't believe in free will though right? Or something like that, so I understand why you don't think it's a choice.
I believe in it in a limited sense. I think genetics, environment, past experiences, and free choice all play a role in our daily lives. Some things you can choose, some things you can't; it's all dependent on what the issue is and what variables are involved.
You are just as closeminded as an atheist as you accuse us "closeminded Christians" of being- you just wont open you eyes and see it.
How am I close-minded when I've been down your road and was a sincere Christian for 5 years? Have you been a sincere atheist/agnostic ever? Probably not.
In any event, I appreciate the response, Mack! :)
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1. You CHOSE to be a Christian; CHOSE to do the research; CHOSE to get out of said Christianity; and you definitely CHOSE to go the atheist route - no denying that.
2. Scientifically speaking, the sky isn't really blue, it's black (we see it as blue because our atmosphere interacts with the sunlight passing through it-
and is known as "Rayleigh scattering."
Obviously you all don't understand the difference between a choice and a free choice. Could I have gone on lying to myself, pretending to be a Christian? Technically yes. So in that sense, my deconversion was a "choice". But you are missing a big piece of reality if you think all choices are equal.
If you're held up at a bank, sure, you have the "choice" to not comply. But it's not a choice at all if your life is valuable to you. Choice involves VIABLE options.
Could a homosexual "choose" to repress his natural attractions? Technically yes. But the consequences could be devastating, as this "forced choice" goes against the very core of a person's internal makeup.
As for the sky thing, that is really petty, jcribb. I'm surprised you'd post something like that just to be arrogant. You knew what I meant by what I posted.
The homosexual's choice to not repress his attraction can be just as devastating - aids, just for one. (consequences)
I was NOT being petty about the sky thinking. Here's your quote: "To press on being a Christian knowing what I knew about the religion delusion would be like denying that the sky is blue."
You call it a "religion delusion" just as you are deluded into thinking the sky is really blue (I agree you know it looks blue) - which is scientifically speaking, since you rely on science for so much of your proof.
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knowing what I knew about the religion delusion would be like denying that the sky is blue
Sometimes it's orange lol! :D
No, the sky is purple
Well what do the atheists say the right color is? Better yet what does Richard Dawkins say the right color is? After all they are the authority on what the truth is! ;)
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It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
Who puts the people who make the laws into power? YOU do.
Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.
:notworthy:
And *this* sort of response is why non-believers accuse y'all of not having very good critical thinking skills.
Who dominates politics? Christians do. Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)? Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.
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It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
Who puts the people who make the laws into power? YOU do.
Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.
:notworthy:
And *this* sort of response is why non-believers accuse y'all of not having very good critical thinking skills.
Who dominates politics? Christians do. Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)? Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.
Which means you have a problem with DEMOCRACY
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Who dominates politics? Christians do. Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)? Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.
What happened to your belief that the majority gets to decide morality?
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It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
Who puts the people who make the laws into power? YOU do.
Oh I must have missed when they changed the voting requirements to being a Christian...don't blame Christianity for your problems with democracy. You don't want a religiously free nation- you want one that tolerates only your religion, atheism.
:notworthy:
And *this* sort of response is why non-believers accuse y'all of not having very good critical thinking skills.
Who dominates politics? Christians do. Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)? Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.
There you go again, qon! You are the superior one with all knowledge and we don't know squat. WRONG....
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No, you do NOT get to decide how or why I feel like I do- I do NOT have my morals spoon fed to me-
You may not realize it, but it's quite possible. I know of lots of ex-Christians who secretly thought god's rules were faulty while putting on an air of agreeing with them.
and contrary to what you think I DO have a brain.
I never said you didn't...?
Am I going to jump in her pants? Absolutely not.
Why? I choose not to.
So you're saying the ONLY thing that's stopping you from pursuing lesbian relationships is mere choice? It has nothing to do with the fact that, I don't know...you're not sexually or emotionally attracted to them like you are with men?
You don't believe in free will though right? Or something like that, so I understand why you don't think it's a choice.
I believe in it in a limited sense. I think genetics, environment, past experiences, and free choice all play a role in our daily lives. Some things you can choose, some things you can't; it's all dependent on what the issue is and what variables are involved.
You are just as closeminded as an atheist as you accuse us "closeminded Christians" of being- you just wont open you eyes and see it.
How am I close-minded when I've been down your road and was a sincere Christian for 5 years? Have you been a sincere atheist/agnostic ever? Probably not.
In any event, I appreciate the response, Mack! :)
So you are proposing I actually don't agree with the Bible, I'm just putting up a front...the arrogance of you even trying to tell me what I really believe is immeasurable.
You implied I didn't have a brain by saying that just because you don't agree with my choices they are not rational and I must not have consciously made them- unless I was delusional at the time.
Even if I was sexually attracted to women I wouldn't because it is wrong, and I can't live a lifestyle that is ethically wrong.
Well when someone makes the choice to do something awful, and it effects you, and their defense is their genetics, environment, and past experiences made them do it we'll see what you really think about choice. Plenty of people were brought up in terrible situations and overcame it. I choose NOT to support excuses like you do.
Whether or not you have ever been a Christian doesn't make you any less closeminded to in now.
In any event, thanks to you too.
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How am I close-minded when I've been down your road and was a sincere Christian for 5 years? Have you been a sincere atheist/agnostic ever? Probably not.
In any event, I appreciate the response, Mack!
Why would we want to sell pure gold for stone? You may have been a Christian in persona, but you didn't get it down deep where it transforms and changes you into a new creature in Christ. Maybe that's not your fault. I really don't know.
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Who dominates politics? Christians do. Why is it that all presidents have to proclaim a belief in god (whether they actually do believe or not)? Because it's been polled that Christians discriminate against atheist leaders.
What happened to your belief that the majority gets to decide morality?
:thumbsup:
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Conclusion
As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.
I never claimed they have MORE choice than a heterosexual
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Conclusion
As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.
I never claimed they have MORE choice than a heterosexual
So why you owning it? Hey, it isn't a choice period...you like whatever you like...
opinion
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Conclusion
As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.
I never claimed they have MORE choice than a heterosexual
So why you owning it? Hey, it isn't a choice period...you like whatever you like...
opinion
Are you a good person? I think all it boils down to is what is in your heart as far as God goes.
allrighty
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It's a choice, it's a choice, it's a choice......
Fine. So you are all going to completely ignore any of the genetic mutations and influences that have been proven and found. No, the fields of science and genetics have NOT yet come up with a singular gene or chromosomal pair that is irrefutable proof of an automatic disposition to homosexuality, I will give you that. But again, how can you all just close your eyes like little kids and play the "If I can't see you, then you can't see me, and you aren't there." game?!
I am going to give you something on just one scope of those 'genetic occurences' - inter-sexuality. Read if you want or ignore it, as always, it is up to you. I have made this as simple to understand as possible and since we have some highly intelligent people here, it should be no problem to get through it.
Inter-sexuality, in a variety of forms, occurs in about one of every 1,500- 2,000 births. That is around the same occurrence percentage as cystic fibrosis. The sex of a child is more than the simple blueprint learned in high school biology – XX for female, XY for male. All embryos are identical for the first eight weeks of gestation. After that time, several factors nudge the fetus toward male or female development. The problem is some embryos just don‘t behave.
The cause can be chromosomal or hormonal. Infants with androgen insensitivity syndrome, for example, have XY cells but cannot process testosterone and they look like females. There is a genetically inherited condition called 5-alpha-reductase deficiency that triggers a very apparent female-to-male sex change at puberty. Congenital adrenal hyperplasia – the most common inter-sexual condition – results from hormonal imbalances that masculinize the genitals of female (XX) children. Scientists and geneticists both have documented their findings and beliefs that such an imbalance also masculinizes the brain, establishing gender and sexual orientation.
There is a surgical training videotape called Surgical Reconstruction of Ambiguous Genitalia in Female Children. It is a required study. Why? Because the ambiguity is classified as a 'social and psychological emergency'. Surgeons almost always perform the plastic surgery early to protect the child – and the parents – from any sense of ambiguity. Nearly all inter-sexual babies are assigned to be female, because the surgical techniques are better. However, there is NO way to remove the psychological confusion.
This mix-up starts at conception, when a sperm cell containing half of the father's chromosomes merges with an egg containing half of the mother's. All eggs carry an X chromosome, but sperm cells carry either a matching X or a smaller and less dense Y. Usually when egg X meets sperm X, the result is a girl – XX. When it meets sperm Y, it's a boy – XY. But there are many exceptions. As one fetal cell divides, a sex chromosome may become detached from the other 45 chromosomes. These babies have what is called mosaic chromosomes. There is no standard prenatal test as of yet because it is only apparent after birth. And because so few people are tested, geneticists suspect mosaic chromosomes may be far more common than we know. So does that not also imply the 'fact' there is far more gender confusion than we know? Can you honestly say, without a doubt, that boys who are more feminine and girls who are more masculine, in all behaviors growing up, and begin leading a homosexual life are doing it because they have NO control over it and NO choice in the matter?
Maybe we should take the 'designer babies' theory one step farther. Instead of giving parents the chance to walk in and tell a doctor, "We would like a boy or we would like a girl.", why don't we just find a way to tinker with nature even more. How about we simply destroy any chance of possible mutation or abnormality before conception and wipe out gender confusion and homosexuality altogether? It sure would make a whole lot of folks a whole lot more comfortable now wouldn't it? We, as a society, would no longer have to worry about all those sinning gays out there, eh?
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This last month alone:
Billy Lucas, died 9.9.10: http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/east_central/teen-suicide-victim-hangs-himself-from-barn-rafters
Tyler Clementi, died 9.22.10: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/30/eveningnews/main6916119.shtml?tag=strip
Asher Brown, died 9.23.20: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7220896.html
Seth Walsh, died 9.28.20: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20018025-504083.html
All four of these young men killed themselves because they were gay and were treated as substandard because of this fact. But I guess it could have all been prevented, though, had they made the "right" choice and, against what they believed wholeheartedly as to who they were they decided to pursue relationships with females.
I don't care personally whether or not someone believes homosexuality is a sin, whether it is abnormal or unnatural or contrary to what g-d wants for us. The only actions we can control are those we personally take. And I believe, wholeheartedly, the more someone votes against gay rights, the more someone preaches against gay rights, and the more people uphold "praying the gay away" that it damages more than it saves.
Everyone, not just the young men who died in these cases, but everyone involved is effected by this. Religion and faith should be about love and acceptance...I don't see any love or acceptance here. To ignore this is wrong. These are human beings, g-d's children, and regardless of whether or not they were born gay or made a choice to be gay, they deserved much more respect than what they received. There is so much fighting over the semantics of the issue that it is easily forgotten and/or ignored that these are real human beings lives at stake here. We live in a culture where children and young adults get the idea that its okay to treat someone badly because they are different. That needs to stop. Until it does, there will be more victims of hate.
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Quote from queenofnines:
Again, you have all the right to not approve of gays. But your beliefs do NOT have the right to restrict basic freedoms from people who are simply different than you.
It's not the peoples' beliefs that restrict the basic freedoms you are speaking of, it's the laws that are doing that.
And just exactly who is it that is voting and revoting time and again to keep those very laws in place. Who is voting and revoting time and again to keep politicians in office who will ultimately pass those laws that continue to restrict those basic freedoms?
Excellent and moving post, Amy. If people do not read that and question what they are actually doing, then something is VERY wrong.
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Thank you, Jordandog. I try.
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Stating assertively that Christians only remain Christians because they don't think critically, is setting the parameter of the box by which an intellectually honest person is allowed to think within.
You won't be able to talk sense into her, I and probably many others have tried
May I bump in and ask where you got that picture from?
"Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or any dogma."
Go ahead and call it materialism or whatever, free-thinkers are not the ones preaching mythological stories and heroes to justify a questionable and outdated idea here. In this case for instance, most christians here are using a loophole to acknowledge the evidence for what it is and come to a what they think is a rational conclusion. It's furthest from. Consider that you said you sin by doing the most simplest things and that your god looks at all sin as the same. Then who in the mortal world gives a crap about 2 individuals who love eachother? Especially when they aren't hurting anyone else? Everyone here who religiously sin are usually aware of themselves doing it. Let them 'bathe in sin' as you or I...or anyone here does all the time while putting christian logic forward. Even though it's a sin to gossip, I'd still respect your right to gossip about people- if it were put to a vote, I'd vote for you to be able to do it, even though on both sides of the spectrum (christians and freethinkers) it can be deemed wrong as it can damage other people considerably and have a virus effect. I'd respect your basic freedoms to do it even though I think it's wrong.
But of course something like murdering someone isn't on par with gossip, so one would obviously have to be rational and adopt a method of 'grayscale-thinking' rather than black and white-- not doing so would make someone a loon.
Why would we want to sell pure gold for stone?
The gold! It's pyrite and it's radioactive!
Edit: GREAT post, Amy. Great post.
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Thank you, Falconer.
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Conclusion
As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.
I never claimed they have MORE choice than a heterosexual
That's NOT what that statement means. It's nothing to with who has 'more' of anything. It means they are drawn to the same sex, just like you are drawn to the opposite sex, and it is NOT because they are choosing it, but because it is how they are wired.
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What happened to your belief that the majority gets to decide morality?
You're manipulating what I said and taking it out of context. When I said "majority morality", I meant when it comes to the basic things that ALL people groups want, not just religious people. Such things include the right to life and happiness (so long as said happiness doesn't detrimentally harm others). A majority cannot overrule a minority if there's no practical reason to do so.
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Conclusion
As a result of everything I have read, learned and experienced as a mental health worker, I long ago concluded that homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Instead, it seems quite clear to me that there is a combination of genetic and biological factors that cause people to become gay. Choice and willfulness have nothing to do with who does and does not become homosexual. Those who are gay have no more choice over their sexual preferences than those who are heterosexual.
I never claimed they have MORE choice than a heterosexual
That's NOT what that statement means. It's nothing to with who has 'more' of anything. It means they are drawn to the same sex, just like you are drawn to the opposite sex, and it is NOT because they are choosing it, but because it is how they are wired.
Jordandog, I have a question. I happened to watch Tyra Banks this week and she had a show about children whose parents let them change their sexual orientation by hormone treatments, etc. These were children from 4 yrs. old to 8 yrs. old who told their parents they were not what they knew they should be and wanted to change themselves. How do you feel about this (does it have something to do with what you were talking about regarding chromoshomes, and do the parents have the right to give or have these hormone treatments done and/or surgeries done? Shouldn't they be in error of the law regarding how we treat our children? These are just children and have not even grown up enough to get the whole picture.) Thanking you ahead for your thoughts on this.
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Free will.
And the Bible was written by man.
It's God's word as he dictated. But to believe that any transcriber wouldn't add their own twist and rules is just naive.
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What happened to your belief that the majority gets to decide morality?
You're manipulating what I said and taking it out of context. When I said "majority morality", I meant when it comes to the basic things that ALL people groups want, not just religious people. Such things include the right to life and happiness (so long as said happiness doesn't detrimentally harm others). A majority cannot overrule a minority if there's no practical reason to do so.
You don't believe in a moral law giver, you don't believe there is any objective moral law to which people are subject to, therefore it falls on society to deem what is moral and what isn't. Societal morality is either going to be a dictatorship or a democracy. Therefore, either societal morals will be subject to an authority who themselves have no one to be subject to (yikes), or societal morals are up for a vote. By your own standard of deciding morals, majority gets to decide.
Now because the majority so happens to be politically active Christians who oppose gay marriage, suddenly...this should not be allowed (in which case now you want to over rule the majority for what you deem the good of society~hypocritical). Christians should not get a vote unless they vote the way you want them to?? Christians have a right to vote in this country just like everyone else. There are plenty of laws that get passed that Christians are not okay with, but we live it because this is how the country works.
Personally, I don't care if gays legally marry or not. It's not like just because there is a law preventing them getting married makes them decide not to be gay. However, I'm not going to vote for something I personally disagree with, so in this certain instance, I don't vote either way. What I AM concerned about is when they want to teach homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle in school to my children. That affects me and I am totally against it, and I WILL vote against that.
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Free will.
And the Bible was written by man.
It's God's word as he dictated. But to believe that any transcriber wouldn't add their own twist and rules is just naive.
When the authors added something that wasn't commanded by God, they added that notation for the benefit of the reader. They assured the readers that they were making a suggestion for a better Christian life but it wasn't a commandment. Such as when Paul recommended not getting married, and added that it was better to get married if you couldn't control yourself...but he added that the recommendation came from him personally, it wasn't a commandment from God. Every writer of the bible had a unique personality and background that added different "tones and colors" to their writings, but when they wrote what God said they wrote under the direction of His Spirit.
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May I bump in and ask where you got that picture from?
I'm not sure why it matters but I copied it and tweaked it to represent my point.
"Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint that holds that opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or any dogma."
Go ahead and call it materialism or whatever, free-thinkers are not the ones preaching mythological stories and heroes to justify a questionable and outdated idea here. In this case for instance, most christians here are using a loophole to acknowledge the evidence for what it is and come to a what they think is a rational conclusion. It's furthest from.
You have just defined your box.
Even though it's a sin to gossip, I'd still respect your right to gossip about people- if it were put to a vote, I'd vote for you to be able to do it, even though on both sides of the spectrum (christians and freethinkers) it can be deemed wrong as it can damage other people considerably and have a virus effect. I'd respect your basic freedoms to do it even though I think it's wrong.
Yes I respect peoples right to sin. So does God, that's why he gave us a CHOICE. Will I vote for someone's right to sin?? No, that's ludicrous! I am not an advocate of sin, I will actively promote a freedom from sin through Christ. However, as I said in my reply to queen, I just choose not to vote either way. Gay people marrying does not affect me, so whatever. But I will vote against laws that affect and infringe on the rights of me and my family and the innocent lives of others, (such as abortion laws).
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I'm not sure why it matters but I copied it and tweaked it to represent my point.
I was just curious to know. No issues here!
You have just defined your box.
"Free-thought" being in a box sounds odd since it has the humility to state that it could be wrong. Please understand who argues morals from myths here and who also cannot fathom the idea of their side being wrong.
Yes I respect peoples right to sin. So does God, that's why he gave us a CHOICE. Will I vote for someone's right to sin?? No, that's ludicrous!
Well that's good that you respect homosexuals even on your religious terms. Cool.
I just choose not to vote either way. Gay people marrying does not affect me, so whatever. But I will vote against laws that affect and infringe on the rights of me and my family and the innocent lives of others, (such as abortion laws).
So it's a null argument for you then?
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"Free-thought" being in a box sounds odd since it has the humility to state that it could be wrong. Please understand who argues morals from myths here and who also cannot fathom the idea of their side being wrong.
Here's the thing, I can be wrong, my interpretation of bible scriptures can be wrong. God is not wrong, He CAN'T be wrong, He is perfect. Do I always know EXACTLY what thinks about something? Absolutely not. I don't THINK people are born gay. I don't know for certain that I'm right, but I don't think I'm wrong.
You are defining my entire beliefs by your own terms (mythological, delusional, irrational etc) thereby defining the only rational terms to think on, are your own. This is not free thought, this is not allowing for free thought. That is my point.
So it's a null argument for you then?
If we're talking about political issues, then yes, to a point it is (for me). If we are talking whether it is natural, acceptable, immoral, sinful, wonderful, beautiful....these are things that "un-nullify" the argument for me. But these are subjective terms based on my own religious faith....so in another regard it would be null anyway because I'm not going to convince you of subjective ideas from a religious perspective you believe is delusional. Although I did present scientific studies that show contrary evidence to the "gay gene" theory, but again, it's research with no definitive answer.
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Free will.
And the Bible was written by man.
It's God's word as he dictated. But to believe that any transcriber wouldn't add their own twist and rules is just naive.
When the authors added something that wasn't commanded by God, they added that notation for the benefit of the reader. They assured the readers that they were making a suggestion for a better Christian life but it wasn't a commandment. Such as when Paul recommended not getting married, and added that it was better to get married if you couldn't control yourself...but he added that the recommendation came from him personally, it wasn't a commandment from God. Every writer of the bible had a unique personality and background that added different "tones and colors" to their writings, but when they wrote what God said they wrote under the direction of His Spirit.
great example from the Bible!
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You are defining my entire beliefs by your own terms (mythological, delusional, irrational etc) thereby defining the only rational terms to think on, are your own. This is not free thought, this is not allowing for free thought. That is my point.
I understand your point here...maybe I'm being a bit hypocritical in some aspects, but at the same time you're practicing the exact opposite of a free thinking process since your view is primarily influenced by traditional religious thinking and an authoritative book.
If we're talking about political issues, then yes, to a point it is (for me). If we are talking whether it is natural, acceptable, immoral, sinful, wonderful, beautiful....these are things that "un-nullify" the argument for me.
Cool. Ultimately your argument here is just for your opinion which I can respect.
Although I did present scientific studies that show contrary evidence to the "gay gene" theory, but again, it's research with no definitive answer.
I'll just be blunt and sum up the thread- it's all fine until one introduces a deity with standards!
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Considering what God says about homosexuality in his Word leaves not doubt to it's interpretation. There is none...it's spelled out! No doubt about it. qon herself list some at the beginning of this post (about the 3rd or so). God is not wrong. His Word is not wrong. There's no compromise to it.
What offends me is the fact no matter how many times we say we don't hate gays, we don't gay bash, We don't want gays dead. We are still "saddled" with that by you non believers. That's incorrect, but you don't want to give us even that. Some day (soon), I'm going to stand before my God, and give account if I stood for His Word. I can't say it's okay, when God's law says it is not. I'll even make it easier....I speak only for myself. I can't dictate what Sherene, Jcribb, Mackenzie, etc., says. I can't answer for them on that day, and they can't answer for me on that day.
I can't call good bad, and bad good, if it's written so. If you want to apply a label of hate, or discrimination, or whatever to me, well....... There's nothing I can do about it. That's my stand, I can't answer for the rest. I do want to say that we can't sin anything that God cannot wipe out with forgiveness. His love is unfathomable.
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I'll just be blunt and sum up the thread- it's all fine until one introduces a deity with standards!
Lol! Yes, but this where the moral argument comes in, and Christians believe, obvisously, that we get our "standards" from a moral law giver. We don't get to decide what's right and wrong for ourselves, or it leads to chaos, because we are ultimately selfish beings. But it also goes beyond societal morals to personal morals that set us apart from unbelievers (and I don't mean set apart in a superior way, only in identifying a follower of Christ by their "fruit"). God has very high standards, ones we fall short of because of our sin, but we still know and understand what God expects and try our best to live the holy life He called us to live.
But despite that sounding burdensome, it isn't. I want to please God, I love Him and through that, I love people. If you love God and love people, you are not likely to WANT to be a sinful person. (I say you in general terms). So loving God and accepting Christs sacrifice, frees me from having to try and perform to standard I can't possibly live up to, and live for Him without shame.
I know this got a little preachy but I wanted to clarify my position as a whole. :)
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You don't believe in a moral law giver, you don't believe there is any objective moral law to which people are subject to, therefore it falls on society to deem what is moral and what isn't.
In this day-and-age, you think humans are completely incapable of coming up with practical morals? Just look at our history -- horrible methods of torture used to be commonplace for transgressions. We had slavery, we had segregation. We had women lesser than men. But we PROGRESSED. We grew up in our morals; we evolved. We're continuing to improve what's considered acceptable conduct each and every day. We're striving for basic freedoms, health, and happiness for ALL people groups (not the case in the past). ** This is thanks largely to technological, scientific, and societal advancement, a moving away from the barabric tribe rituals and the religions of our ancestors. **
Now because the majority so happens to be politically active Christians who oppose gay marriage, suddenly...this should not be allowed (in which case now you want to over rule the majority for what you deem the good of society~hypocritical).
I'm not making the bit about minorities up...it's actual U.S. law that just because we live in a democracy, we must ALSO ensure that the majority doesn't take advantage of a minority. Obviously, this doesn't always get followed like in the case of gay marriage (and that's due to old white Christian men, I'm sure)...but you can see it in plenty of other places.
There are plenty of laws that get passed that Christians are not okay with, but we live it because this is how the country works.
So why not let gays marry and have god deal with them? Why do you feel you need to do god's job for him? Is he incapable?
Oh, and I get really annoyed whenever I hear that the moral foundation of this country is going to the pits. No it's not. There may be a few new things happening that don't jive with your uptight religious rules, but for the most part, people who do bad things are still doing them for the same reasons as generations past (like a poverty-stricken or abusive upbringing).
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Jordandog, I have a question. I happened to watch Tyra Banks this week and she had a show about children whose parents let them change their sexual orientation by hormone treatments, etc. These were children from 4 yrs. old to 8 yrs. old who told their parents they were not what they knew they should be and wanted to change themselves. How do you feel about this (does it have something to do with what you were talking about regarding chromoshomes, and do the parents have the right to give or have these hormone treatments done and/or surgeries done? Shouldn't they be in error of the law regarding how we treat our children? These are just children and have not even grown up enough to get the whole picture.) Thanking you ahead for your thoughts on this.
Let me start by saying I did NOT see the show, so I don't know any of the dynamics, but I would NOT put too much into the fact they were on the Tyra Banks Show. Nothing against her, but this type of show tends to sensationalize and not always give a true representation, especially with such a controversial and touchy subject like this. For instance, I have no idea IF these children have even had a psychiatric work up/profile done. It is usually not done at that young an age, especially the 4 year old, because they have NOT begun puberty. There may be counseling, because of behaviors that are not 'normal', but many children outgrow this feeling after puberty. Now, if these children on Tyra's show had/have an actual disorder, that is another set of circumstances.
GID (Gender Identity Disorder) is a quantified mental disorder according to the psychiatric DSM(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) and has a wide range of symptoms associated with it which I will not go into here, not the place for it. A child's gender identity is known to be developed around the age of 2 years. There are thousands of children who HAVE been treated before and during their teen years with hormones/drugs that act to delay onset of puberty, etc. since GID was discovered and became a recognized 'abnormality'. However, this is never used by any other than a specifically qualified team of doctors in various practice areas and after extensive psychiatric and psychological testing and documentation spanning a period of years. There is VERY specific criteria that must be met. Again, without seeing the show, I don't know if any of this applies. For all I know, these mothers could have been giving their children their (the mothers') own birth control pills to alter hormone levels - it has been done, believe me.
As to your question about my post re chromosomic and hormonal influences? That would be a definite yes in some factors of GID. The biochemical process of fetal hormone levels, produced by the mother's body, play a definite role in this and they influence not only the development of the fetus's body/organs, but also the development of the brain. Two very well documented syndromes involving sex and gender, Turner syndrome and Klinefelter syndrome, result from chromosomal abnormalities.
My opinion on this is not based on the parents' rights to do or not do anything. It is based on what a child with actual GID, again after meeting all criteria, can and is known to go through. Some GID patients, if not aware they even have it (they just know something is NOT right) or are not able to get all aspects of the help they need/require, suffer lives that are unbelievably screwed up. They have been known to disfigure their own bodies in order to get rid of the offending parts, often go into a life of oblivion via alcohol and drugs, are many times disowned by parents, family and friends, and also have a high rate of suicide. Those are just some of the repercussions. They are not at all unlike a homosexual suppressing their desires, but homosexuality is NO longer qualified as a 'mental disorder' and hasn't been since 1973. Many parents force a child to take on an identity that is NOT the child's and I do not feel it is done maliciously, but out of ignorance. If someone suffers from GID, then I believe they have to be treated individually, there is no right or wrong. I would hope their parents and loved ones would support them, but that is not always the case. As for the parents on Tyra's show, again, I can't say if they are right in what they are doing. I do know this is a very controversial subject because it usually leads to gender reassignment and that is something MANY are NOT comfortable with. There is a growing movement among professionals who treat GID in children to take one course of action only. They will prescribe hormones to delay the onset of puberty. After that they feel the child is old enough to make an informed decision on whether total hormonal gender reassignment, that will lead to surgical gender reassignment, will be in their best interest. I know we have had the 'evolution of humans' discussion here. Well, for what it's worth, GID is becoming more prevalent. I know that gets my attention.
I apologize for yet another lengthy post, but this is another one that can't be done in just a couple sentences - not if I give it it's worth anyway. ;)
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Thanks, jordandog, for your response. I did expect you would give a lengthy answer, because of the subject at hand. What bothered me most, was that there were at least 2 children that came on with their parents, that were no older than 8 years old that had been given "hormone" treatments. One of them, I recall, I was unsure (the conversation was jumping around the bush) of whether they had actually allowed surgery to be done. One wanted to be a boy and the other wanted to be a girl. I remember as a kid, I was a major tomboy, but at that young age, I never even questioned whether or not something could be done to reverse my gender, never thought about it. Once I reached a certain age, things changed where the girly part of me clicked in. I know this is normal for children, so for the life of me, I can't understand why a parent would allow something like that for their child at such a young age, and then get away with lawfully.
However, like you said, it's a t.v. show where the drama is done to grab attention, and things are embellished. I appreciate your response, and with some of your chromosomal conditions, etc., I can see where some would definitely be abnormalities and should be handled professionally, and otherwise. I just hope these t.v. cases I saw are embellished - those kids could now be really messed up when they reach teens and beyond.
Again, thank you for taking the time to answer the question. :thumbsup:
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True christians don't hate people, they hate the actions they do, or strongly disprove of it. They base what actions are good and bad on what their God said. If you didn't think something was bad, yet the constitution said it was bad or against the law. Will you do it anyway? For true christians the bible is Law, but law under the christ and not the law of the israelites.
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Free will.
And the Bible was written by man.
It's God's word as he dictated. But to believe that any transcriber wouldn't add their own twist and rules is just naive.
right there with you. i wanted to put something like that originally but didnt know how to put it.
my mom did something when my sibilings and i was little to make us see that different religions in their Bibles are different in their own way.
She was catholic and at the time i was going to a christian church.
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Free will.
And the Bible was written by man.
It's God's word as he dictated. But to believe that any transcriber wouldn't add their own twist and rules is just naive.
When the authors added something that wasn't commanded by God, they added that notation for the benefit of the reader. They assured the readers that they were making a suggestion for a better Christian life but it wasn't a commandment. Such as when Paul recommended not getting married, and added that it was better to get married if you couldn't control yourself...but he added that the recommendation came from him personally, it wasn't a commandment from God. Every writer of the bible had a unique personality and background that added different "tones and colors" to their writings, but when they wrote what God said they wrote under the direction of His Spirit.
Okay, let me throw this out there. What do the writings of Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 say, first about god and then about homosexuality? These are the last two places in the Bible that seem to refer to same-sex behavior. Because they are so similar, just for the sake of right now, combine them.
Paul is exasperated. The Christians in Ephesus and Corinth are fighting among themselves. In Corinth they're even suing one another in secular courts. Paul shouts "You are breaking god's heart by the way you are treating one another." They ask, "Well, how are we supposed to treat one another?" Paul answers, "You know how to treat one another from the Jewish law written on tablets of stone."
The Jewish law was created by god to help regulate human behavior, correct? To remind the churches in Corinth and Ephesus how god wants us to treat one another, Paul gives examples from the Jewish law first. Don't kill one another. Don't sleep with a person who is married to someone else. Don't lie or cheat or steal. The list goes on to include fornication, idolatry, whoremongering, perjury, drunkenness, revelry, and extortion. He also includes "malokois" and "arsenokoitai". What's a malokois? What's an arsenokoitai? From what I have read, those two Greek words still confuse scholars today and I found quite a few different interpretations of it.
After quoting from the Jewish law, Paul reminds the Christians in Corinth that they are under a new law ie the law of Jesus, a law of love that tells/requires everyone to do more than just not murder, commit adultery, to not lie, cheat, or steal. Paul tells them what god wants is not strict adherence to a list of laws, but a pure heart, a good conscience, and a faith that isn't phony. God doesn't want people arguing over who is 'in' and who is 'out'. God wants people to love one another and it is god’s task to judge people. Not people’s task to judge one another, right? So what do those two texts say about homosexuality? Are gays and lesbians on that list of sinners in the Jewish law that Paul quotes to make an entirely different point?
Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant "effeminate call boys." The New Revised Standard Version says "male prostitutes".
As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don't even know exactly what it means and that means no one in this forum or debate does either - unless possibly Annella because she, as far as I can see and she implies, is the most knowledgeable as far as interpretation in this forum, it's what she does. Some scholars and theologians believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of "the effeminate call boys" and we now call people like those ‘customers’ dirty old men. Others translate the word as 'sodomites', but never explain what that means.
In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translating that mysterious Greek word (arsenokoitai) into English decided it meant homosexuals, even though there is, in fact, no such word in Greek or Hebrew. But that translator made the decision for everyone and it placed the word homosexual in the English language Bible for the very first time.
In the past, didn't people used Paul's writings to support slavery, segregation, and apartheid? Don’t some people here in America and in different parts of the world still use Paul's writings to oppress women and limit their role in the home, in church, and in society. Is a word in Greek that has no clear definition being used as a weapon to reflect society's prejudice and condemn god's gay children? From what I have read and researched, the most convincing argument from history is that Paul is condemning the married men who hired hairless young boys (malakois) for sexual pleasure just like they hired smooth skinned young girls for that same purpose.
Don't you think responsible homosexuals would join Paul in condemning anyone who uses children for sex? I certainly do. Just like they would condemn the rape of anyone. I am NOT a biblical scholar, have never claimed to be one, and am most likely viewed as fairly ignorant about it by some here. But to me, these writings of Paul say a whole lot about god, but nothing about homosexuality as far as we define it TODAY. I know you have to think outside the box on this one, but if it is just ignored, as it seems a good portion of what I have taken the time to post has been, then maybe no one wants to even consider other possibilities. To me, that's a sad state of affairs.
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jcribb,
You are welcome, as always. ;) I did the best I could. As for what I said in my last post about my words being 'ignored', that certainly doesn't apply to you or anyone else who has commented on them.
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i hate tupoc. or however you spell it.
Yeah, well I am sure he aint too fond of you either, troll
troll really? wow. how immature. and hes dead so if hes fond of me or not i dont care. Im not on here or on this earth to seek approval from anybody except myself.
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i hate tupoc. or however you spell it.
Yeah, well I am sure he aint too fond of you either, troll
troll really? wow. how immature. and hes dead so if hes fond of me or not i dont care. Im not on here or on this earth to seek approval from anybody except myself.
Great! Now we have a discussion of a rapper's death being carried into the thread... ::)
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:cat: Yep, that's why I've been ignoring it (rapper's death unfriendly argument.)
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Marie, nothing against you. I was just responding to jordandog's comment about it because your and armychick's comments to each other have nothing to do with what jordandog and I were discussing. So, it just meant I was paying them no mind and not involving myself between the two of you. :)
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So why not let gays marry and have god deal with them? Why do you feel you need to do god's job for him? Is he incapable?
I said in my post that I don't care if they marry, I don't vote for or against this issue.
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Okay, let me throw this out there. What do the writings of Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 say, first about god and then about homosexuality?
Jordan I'm not sure if you were just using my post to initiate this question?? I actually wasn't referring to anything about homosexuals with this post, just pointing out to the person I was responding to, that the writers did have opinions but they didn't parade it as a commandment by God.
In the past, didn't people used Paul's writings to support slavery, segregation, and apartheid? Don’t some people here in America and in different parts of the world still use Paul's writings to oppress women and limit their role in the home, in church, and in society. Is a word in Greek that has no clear definition being used as a weapon to reflect society's prejudice and condemn god's gay children? From what I have read and researched, the most convincing argument from history is that Paul is condemning the married men who hired hairless young boys (malakois) for sexual pleasure just like they hired smooth skinned young girls for that same purpose.
You are right about people using Paul's writings to justify their beliefs. When doing bible study and delving into the time period and the meaning of the original language, there is no justification to oppress anyone. But people do it, I have seen an entire church group use the bible to justify getting drunk. Their church services were held while everyone was handed some type of alcohol (including children) and the preacher preached the word of God while slurring his words. There was a church group that justified kicking people out if they did not appear holy enough. I have been to both of those churches, I kicked myself out of the first one and I got kicked out of the second one because I had my tongue pierced.
What other people do to abuse God's word, I am not responsible for and I cannot answer for them, they have to answer for themselves. As for what it says about homosexuality; in the particular scriptures you mention, (arsenokoit‘s, from ars‘n, a male, and keit‘, one who lies with) that describes the sexual act of homosexuals. Paul was referring to prostitution with (malakos)-I see this as being referred to as the active (malakoi) and passive (arsenokitai) aspects of homosexuality. And in other places in the bible it describes homosexuality as a man lying with a man and woman with woman, working that which is unseemly.
HOWEVER, nowhere in the bible does it say that hatred is acceptable towards people with this particular sin. So using the bible to justify hate is just as wrong as using it to justify getting drunk, bombing abortion clinics, or any other such outrageous nonsense that ignorant hateful people do and justify with God's word.
I'm not a bible scholar either, so I cannot assert that "this is the bottom line" with the interpretation of those words. But I think the focus (for Christians in general) should be on our own relationship with God. We are not authorized to do God's job ,as queen pointed out, are only command is to "love".
I realize that this is a debate about homosexuality, so in this case our thoughts about it are fine. But in our daily lives we should (and I think the represented Christians here do) just love people.
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Marie, nothing against you. I was just responding to jordandog's comment about it because your and armychick's comments to each other have nothing to do with what jordandog and I were discussing. So, it just meant I was paying them no mind and not involving myself between the two of you. :)
I know that, I responding to Jordondog.
Yeah, people do go off topic, but that was way off topic and I said nothing about his death, here or anywhere. If you want to argue with THAT chick who is the 'hater', then do it in the right thread! Don't start it again, not with me. I have been nothing BUT nice to you lately and also complimented you on the cartoons you found. End of it, now.
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I don't know why the topic of hate keeps coming up in regard to the object of homosexuals. No body here has said to hate gays or anything of the like. Everyone is jumping to the conclusion that this is about hate. It is not.
I in no way imply that I'm such a Bible scholar. I've been a Christian for almost 40 years now. I've studied the
Word extensively, because I'm responsible for what I teach others. If you were a doctor, you would study the appropriate books according to your profession, a Mechanic would study owners manuals. Because I'm Clergy, my study manual is the Bible. Not because I'm better, smarter, or any such thing.
We can take each word in a scripture, and dissect it to its meaning and so forth. All that is fine. However, the Bible is very clear, even without intense study, Old or New Testament, that Homosexuality is displeasing to God, and sinful. If you want to blame me for what the Bible says, then I'll be more than happy to take that blame, because I believe it....completely....every single page. Believing it does not mean I hate people with that particular sin, neither does God. God loves humanity, ALL of humanity completely. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We don't get good to be worthy of God, we go to God to get good and be worthy to serve him. God takes us as we are. Every Christian on here is a thankful sinner that got pardoned. That's all.
I know you can't understand being against something, but loving the person who is the very essence of what you can't accept as ok (sin). I absolutely cannot fathom what goes on in the mind of a child molester. Children to me are the very witness and epitome of purity and innocence. It makes me sick to my stomach to even imagine such a horrendous sin. However, if that child molester repented, was baptized, and submitted themselves to be filled, and walk by the Spirit, I would call them my brother and sister. I think this is where the misunderstanding comes in. Just because you can't understand anyone loving humanity completely, but hate the sin, does not mean that that kind of love is not possible or exists. Because we as Christians have been born again, Christ loves through us to humanity. That love however cannot gloss over the sin, as acceptable.
It's who and what I am (a believer). I don't live one way in church, and then another outside it. I could no more flip flop on this issue, any more than I could murder, lying, stealing, etc. How much integrity would that portray? I'm told to pray for the land where I dwell. For the healing and blessings of God upon it. If the Bible says the land is polluted by this sin and every other sin, I can't deem it acceptable (in any venue).
If your offended by this, it's not my stance to offend, but to declare what is truth and right. Since this has caused so much discontent amongst you. I'm going to withdraw from this thread from this day on, and the subject of it. My stance is crystal clear, and there's nothing more to say to make it more so. Do I love gays....yes. Do I love thieves.....yes, etc. Do I approve of the lifestyle....no
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
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HOWEVER, nowhere in the bible does it say that hatred is acceptable towards people with this particular sin. So using the bible to justify hate is just as wrong as using it to justify getting drunk, bombing abortion clinics, or any other such outrageous nonsense that ignorant hateful people do and justify with God's word.
I'm not a bible scholar either, so I cannot assert that "this is the bottom line" with the interpretation of those words. But I think the focus (for Christians in general) should be on our own relationship with God. We are not authorized to do God's job ,as queen pointed out, are only command is to "love".
I realize that this is a debate about homosexuality, so in this case our thoughts about it are fine. But in our daily lives we should (and I think the represented Christians here do) just love people.
I have to agree with you here. I don't believe I have ever in RL met anyone as loving as you, Annella, or Jcribb.
I think we all get emotional (or at least I do) and we get heated when discussing our beliefs...and we don't always agree with each other. But you said something to me a while ago when we were having a scriptural discussion/debate that stuck with me, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. When we start with love, we're on the right path, or something along those lines. And I am glad that I've met you. :D
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Jordan I'm not sure if you were just using my post to initiate this question?? I actually wasn't referring to anything about homosexuals with this post, just pointing out to the person I was responding to, that the writers did have opinions but they didn't parade it as a commandment by God.
sherna, I have been doing some extensive research as to the origin(s) of and reference to homosexuality in the Bible since this thread started. So the answer is, yes - your post DID just initiate mine and I was not tying the 2 together. When I saw what you wrote, it made me go to my notes on Paul in particular. So, you made me do it you know! ;D
What other people do to abuse God's word, I am not responsible for and I cannot answer for them, they have to answer for themselves.
Knowing you as well as I think I do from months of reading what you write and how you present things, that is a given. I would never say you are one who just plunks down in that 'comfortable chair of religion', never gets up from it, and sits there saying the standard mantra "It's written that way, it's god's, and it's right, so don't bother me with your inane questions." You are clear on where you stand, but you are willing to at least look at other viewpoints.
As for what it says about homosexuality; in the particular scriptures you mention, (arsenokoit‘s, from ars‘n, a male, and keit‘, one who lies with) that describes the sexual act of homosexuals. Paul was referring to prostitution with (malakos)-I see this as being referred to as the active (malakoi) and passive (arsenokitai) aspects of homosexuality. And in other places in the bible it describes homosexuality as a man lying with a man and woman with woman, working that which is unseemly.
I would guess that your definition for arsenokoitai is taken from a Christian oriented site because they all tend to say that same thing. Big surprise there - not really. I have looked extensively through a minimum of 50 sites (most likely more) for a definition of arsenokoitai. They all state there is no clear, concise definition. They all state it is an ambiguous word at best - it is a compund word with multiple definitions and is thought to have been coined by Paul from Leviticus. Leviticus discussed sacred prostitution so if Paul coined the word from that, it is believed that Paul condemned sacred prostitution and not homosexuality. I have looked at things regarding the Bible and this word written by umpteen scholars from every century, and while they all refer to the word, not one of them provides a definition either. What upsets me, actually it angers me, is what I wrote previously. One guy comes along in 1958 who is a translator for the New Amplified Bible. He alone decides to translate this mysterious Greek word into English and he decides it means 'homosexuals' - even though no such word exists in either Greek or Hebrew and even breaking it down, like you wrote it, does NOT follow any rules of translation. So now it stands, as he first wrote it, in the English-language Bible. To me, that was a very convenient way to insert his and society's homophobia into the Bible where it would be perpetuated throughout the years. That makes me angry!
The passage copied below is from 'The Christian Research Institute'. NOT from any pro-gay activist site or anything that can be construed as biased and/or favoring a homosexual lifestyle:
Theologian John H. Elliott, Professor Emeritus of Theology and Religious Studies at the University of San Francisco, has written one of the most thorough studies of 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 to date. He concludes that “nothing in 1 Corinthians, or for that matter in any other biblical writing, speaks directly of the biological or psychological condition of homosexuality or homosexual ‘orientation’ as this is understood today and as it concerns believing Christian gay persons intent on worshipping and serving God.”
He concludes from his research that the Bible in its entirety, as with 1 Corinthians specifically, offers sparse and ambiguous evidence concerning male-male sexual relationships, and is “conditioned by cultural perceptions and behavioral patterns too alien to those of modern times to provide an adequate basis for a contemporary ethic of homosexuality as homosexuality is currently understood.” If a case is to be made for or against the morality of homosexuality as it is understood in contemporary society, Elliott argues, it will have to be made on evidence other than 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and other similar passages contained in the Bible.
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Youuuuuu, whooooo, JC....***points at my question***
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Thanks, walksalone, for answering! Re: the 2nd part, "especially since they are Christians," : I felt like you weren't just calling any kind of names, but mocking the fact they are Christians and so the names had to do with mocking their choice of Christianity. I don't like malicious name calling of any kind, but we all like to jokingly call our friends and family names within our joking zones. This, again, I felt was aimed toward their Christianity and that's why I wrote that.
Thank you, again, for your reslponse. I appreciate that very much! :)
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HOWEVER, nowhere in the bible does it say that hatred is acceptable towards people with this particular sin. So using the bible to justify hate is just as wrong as using it to justify getting drunk, bombing abortion clinics, or any other such outrageous nonsense that ignorant hateful people do and justify with God's word.
I'm not a bible scholar either, so I cannot assert that "this is the bottom line" with the interpretation of those words. But I think the focus (for Christians in general) should be on our own relationship with God. We are not authorized to do God's job ,as queen pointed out, are only command is to "love".
I realize that this is a debate about homosexuality, so in this case our thoughts about it are fine. But in our daily lives we should (and I think the represented Christians here do) just love people.
I have to agree with you here. I don't believe I have ever in RL met anyone as loving as you, Annella, or Jcribb.
I think we all get emotional (or at least I do) and we get heated when discussing our beliefs...and we don't always agree with each other. But you said something to me a while ago when we were having a scriptural discussion/debate that stuck with me, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. When we start with love, we're on the right path, or something along those lines. And I am glad that I've met you. :D
Thanks Amy, for what you said. The same goes right back to you, too!!!
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Youuuuuu, whooooo, JC....***points at my question***
Hey, Hey Walks!!! LOL! I just got back home!!!!!! I answered before I saw this! :thumbsup:
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Thanks, walksalone, for answering! Re: the 2nd part, "especially since they are Christians," : I felt like you weren't just calling any kind of names, but mocking the fact they are Christians and so the names had to do with mocking their choice of Christianity. I don't like malicious name calling of any kind, but we all like to jokingly call our friends and family names within our joking zones. This, again, I felt was aimed toward their Christianity and that's why I wrote that.
Thank you, again, for your reslponse. I appreciate that very much! :)
I see JC, and understand how you might come to that conclusion so I will address where I think the assumption is wrong.
As I have previously stated, I have close, in the real, friends of many different belief systems, so no....I wouldn't call someone names based on that.
If so, why would you think that I havent addressed Mrs. Sherna as such?
Actually there are a few NDNs who I also see as bigots and often remind them of such.
As for Mack....well, to make a long story short, I see some reflections of myself in her that I abhor, such as trying to project more intelligence then we actually posses,so...... well......I apologize Mack for that.
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Thanks, walks, for that. I realized I had mistakenly written Sherna's name instead of Mack's, then Annella, reminded me of it, and I had changed the names a few posts later. Anyway, thank you!!!
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HOWEVER, nowhere in the bible does it say that hatred is acceptable towards people with this particular sin. So using the bible to justify hate is just as wrong as using it to justify getting drunk, bombing abortion clinics, or any other such outrageous nonsense that ignorant hateful people do and justify with God's word.
I'm not a bible scholar either, so I cannot assert that "this is the bottom line" with the interpretation of those words. But I think the focus (for Christians in general) should be on our own relationship with God. We are not authorized to do God's job ,as queen pointed out, are only command is to "love".
I realize that this is a debate about homosexuality, so in this case our thoughts about it are fine. But in our daily lives we should (and I think the represented Christians here do) just love people.
I have to agree with you here. I don't believe I have ever in RL met anyone as loving as you, Annella, or Jcribb.
I think we all get emotional (or at least I do) and we get heated when discussing our beliefs...and we don't always agree with each other. But you said something to me a while ago when we were having a scriptural discussion/debate that stuck with me, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. When we start with love, we're on the right path, or something along those lines. And I am glad that I've met you. :D
Thanks Amy, for what you said. The same goes right back to you, too!!!
Totally realized I forgot to include Sheryl in that. :sad1:
It also occurred to me that I included only Christians in that...I want everyone here to know how much I love debating and discussing with you! I don't want anyone to be offended if I've left your name off the list (right, Falconer? LOL)...
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I don't know why the topic of hate keeps coming up in regard to the object of homosexuals. No body here has said to hate gays or anything of the like. Everyone is jumping to the conclusion that this is about hate. It is not.
I in no way imply that I'm such a Bible scholar. I've been a Christian for almost 40 years now. I've studied the
Word extensively, because I'm responsible for what I teach others. If you were a doctor, you would study the appropriate books according to your profession, a Mechanic would study owners manuals. Because I'm Clergy, my study manual is the Bible. Not because I'm better, smarter, or any such thing.
We can take each word in a scripture, and dissect it to its meaning and so forth. All that is fine. However, the Bible is very clear, even without intense study, Old or New Testament, that Homosexuality is displeasing to God, and sinful. If you want to blame me for what the Bible says, then I'll be more than happy to take that blame, because I believe it....completely....every single page. Believing it does not mean I hate people with that particular sin, neither does God. God loves humanity, ALL of humanity completely. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We don't get good to be worthy of God, we go to God to get good and be worthy to serve him. God takes us as we are. Every Christian on here is a thankful sinner that got pardoned. That's all.
I know you can't understand being against something, but loving the person who is the very essence of what you can't accept as ok (sin). I absolutely cannot fathom what goes on in the mind of a child molester. Children to me are the very witness and epitome of purity and innocence. It makes me sick to my stomach to even imagine such a horrendous sin. However, if that child molester repented, was baptized, and submitted themselves to be filled, and walk by the Spirit, I would call them my brother and sister. I think this is where the misunderstanding comes in. Just because you can't understand anyone loving humanity completely, but hate the sin, does not mean that that kind of love is not possible or exists. Because we as Christians have been born again, Christ loves through us to humanity. That love however cannot gloss over the sin, as acceptable.
It's who and what I am (a believer). I don't live one way in church, and then another outside it. I could no more flip flop on this issue, any more than I could murder, lying, stealing, etc. How much integrity would that portray? I'm told to pray for the land where I dwell. For the healing and blessings of God upon it. If the Bible says the land is polluted by this sin and every other sin, I can't deem it acceptable (in any venue).
If your offended by this, it's not my stance to offend, but to declare what is truth and right. Since this has caused so much discontent amongst you. I'm going to withdraw from this thread from this day on, and the subject of it. My stance is crystal clear, and there's nothing more to say to make it more so. Do I love gays....yes. Do I love thieves.....yes, etc. Do I approve of the lifestyle....no
Seems to me that you keep bringing up the subject of hate. You have said it repeatedly and I am starting to wonder who you are trying to convince. I know I haven't used the word as far as any of the Christians, their views, or their replies on here.
I was paying you a well deserved compliment as far as your knowledge of the Bible, but I guess you didn't see it that way. I never said you were better, smarter, or anything else. You have said before how long and extensively you have studied the Bible, so to me, that implies you are a scholar of it - who is putting words in someone else's mouth there?
Personally, and I am fairly sure I am speaking for most everyone here, I completely understand the concept of loving someone while not loving their actions. I would also bet I have as deep a love for my fellow human as you do. You don't have a corner on that because you are a Christian. You have no idea what goes through me when I am holding someone who is puking their guts out all over the place from their chemo and radiation. I actually welcome the vomit because at least it means they are still alive. Do you know what it's like to say, "See you tomorrow..." to someone who is 6 or 16 or 26 knowing in every fiber of my being that their bed will NOT be holding them when I enter that room the next time? I see no color, no sexual identity, and no political or religious differences. I see a human being unfortunate enough to be 'stuck' in that singular, lonely world of the dying and have no answers to give them.
It's pointless to bother writing a view about this outside of what is said in the Bible. You are not, it appears, willing to even consider there are reasons, and many of them, for a person being gay that have NOTHING to do with them choosing it. The things I post from a medical standpoint are not born of ignorance, to try and change you, or because I want them 'to be that way'. I am simply trying to show you there are things outside that book that are as real to me as it is to you.
For the record, other than lacking 2 years more internship, I am right behind a doctor and do all the same things they do within the parameters of what the specialty is. I can have my own practice outside a hospital, I have my own patient load, my own RN's under me, I diagnose, treat, and prescribe all classes of meds, so I am a scholar of medicine. Had my sons' father (ex-husband) NOT decided to walk out the door when my youngest had just turned 3, I would most definitely be an MD right now and not a Nurse Practioner. It was too much to handle being a single parent with no help and trying to go any further, so I willingly 'switched trains' and gave it up. My boys were far more important than the more elite letters behind my name.
I have the night off, so I am going to make popcorn, eat ice-cream, and stay up watching movies until dawn - at least that's the plan, so see you all later. ;)
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I would guess that your definition for arsenokoitai is taken from a Christian oriented site because they all tend to say that same thing. Big surprise there - not really. I have looked extensively through a minimum of 50 sites (most likely more) for a definition of arsenokoitai. They all state there is no clear, concise definition. They all state it is an ambiguous word at best - it is a compund word with multiple definitions and is thought to have been coined by Paul from Leviticus. Leviticus discussed sacred prostitution so if Paul coined the word from that, it is believed that Paul condemned sacred prostitution and not homosexuality. I have looked at things regarding the Bible and this word written by umpteen scholars from every century, and while they all refer to the word, not one of them provides a definition either. What upsets me, actually it angers me, is what I wrote previously. One guy comes along in 1958 who is a translator for the New Amplified Bible. He alone decides to translate this mysterious Greek word into English and he decides it means 'homosexuals' - even though no such word exists in either Greek or Hebrew and even breaking it down, like you wrote it, does NOT follow any rules of translation. So now it stands, as he first wrote it, in the English-language Bible. To me, that was a very convenient way to insert his and society's homophobia into the Bible where it would be perpetuated throughout the years. That makes me angry!
The passage copied below is from 'The Christian Research Institute'. NOT from any pro-gay activist site or anything that can be construed as biased and/or favoring a homosexual lifestyle:
Theologian John H. Elliott, Professor Emeritus of Theology and Religious Studies at the University of San Francisco, has written one of the most thorough studies of 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 to date. He concludes that “nothing in 1 Corinthians, or for that matter in any other biblical writing, speaks directly of the biological or psychological condition of homosexuality or homosexual ‘orientation’ as this is understood today and as it concerns believing Christian gay persons intent on worshipping and serving God.”
He concludes from his research that the Bible in its entirety, as with 1 Corinthians specifically, offers sparse and ambiguous evidence concerning male-male sexual relationships, and is “conditioned by cultural perceptions and behavioral patterns too alien to those of modern times to provide an adequate basis for a contemporary ethic of homosexuality as homosexuality is currently understood.” If a case is to be made for or against the morality of homosexuality as it is understood in contemporary society, Elliott argues, it will have to be made on evidence other than 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and other similar passages contained in the Bible.
Well, I know the word homosexual didn't exist in the original language. The passage you copied from The Christian Research Institute is interesting. My thoughts are that, in the situation where a particular word is hard to interpret, the main focus should be taken off that individual word and look at it in context of what point the author is trying to make. If that means you can't force it to translate what you want it to, well tough! If Paul wasn't talking about sexual orientation here, and was referring to prostitution with young males, then that's what he was talking about! It is difficult I think for people who WANT to judge other people to take their focus off unimportant things and focus on the point.
I said earlier in this thread, if a homosexual person loves God, who cares what anyone else says about it! I cannot judge them. And although I believe it is a choice, I don't believe it's a choice that they make, like I make a choice to have coffee or tea for breakfast. I think it is psychological, and I won't deny I could be wrong about this being psychological from birth. I think that God can heal anybody of anything (I know you don't believe this, but I'm sharing my thoughts on where I stand in light of your information). I know people who thought they were born gay and are now heterosexual and happy, they say God healed them. But if a person is gay and they feel they were born that way, and they don't even believe they NEED to be healed, ok. What's important is that they choose God and love him, that they love people and show God to them. There is a song, an old song that says "They will know we are Christians by our love" I never heard the song "They will know we are Christians by our sex life"
God can use gay people to save people, God can use any sinner He chooses...He even uses me and I'm horrible! So, do I still think it's sin? Yes. But it really doesn't matter because I'm not better than a gay person, in fact a lot of them are probably better than me, so I really do want to set myself up here as some holier than thou, look down my nose at you cuz you're going to hell kind of person.
Anyhow, I think I have gotten to emotional and started rambling. :wave:
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I have to agree with you here. I don't believe I have ever in RL met anyone as loving as you, Annella, or Jcribb.
I think we all get emotional (or at least I do) and we get heated when discussing our beliefs...and we don't always agree with each other. But you said something to me a while ago when we were having a scriptural discussion/debate that stuck with me, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. When we start with love, we're on the right path, or something along those lines. And I am glad that I've met you. :D
Thank you so much Amy. :heart:
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Quote from jordandog:
For the record, other than lacking 2 years more internship, I am right behind a doctor and do all the same things they do within the parameters of what the specialty is. I can have my own practice outside a hospital, I have my own patient load, my own RN's under me, I diagnose, treat, and prescribe all classes of meds, so I am a scholar of medicine. Had my sons' father (ex-husband) NOT decided to walk out the door when my youngest had just turned 3, I would most definitely be an MD right now and not a Nurse Practioner. It was too much to handle being a single parent with no help and trying to go any further, so I willingly 'switched trains' and gave it up. My boys were far more important than the more elite letters behind my name.
I have the night off, so I am going to make popcorn, eat ice-cream, and stay up watching movies until dawn - at least that's the plan, so see you all later.
:cat: (off topic for a minute...)
First of all, I just want to tell you that you have done wonderful having gone through what you did being a single mom, with your children, and doing the kind of work/school that you have worked on and achieved. I can relate to that in my own way, for how it took years, starting, stopping, starting, and finally achieving my degree in Education/Bible/Music. There were some rough roads to go down. Hang in there!!
Second of all, I am so glad you get to eat popcorn and ice cream, and watch movies tonight! Ever since I've come on FC, you are always leaving to go to work, and then you are usually on when I'm at work. Glad you've got you some down time. Enjoy!
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Thanks, walksalone, for answering! Re: the 2nd part, "especially since they are Christians," : I felt like you weren't just calling any kind of names, but mocking the fact they are Christians and so the names had to do with mocking their choice of Christianity. I don't like malicious name calling of any kind, but we all like to jokingly call our friends and family names within our joking zones. This, again, I felt was aimed toward their Christianity and that's why I wrote that.
Thank you, again, for your reslponse. I appreciate that very much! :)
I see JC, and understand how you might come to that conclusion so I will address where I think the assumption is wrong.
As I have previously stated, I have close, in the real, friends of many different belief systems, so no....I wouldn't call someone names based on that.
If so, why would you think that I havent addressed Mrs. Sherna as such?
Actually there are a few NDNs who I also see as bigots and often remind them of such.
As for Mack....well, to make a long story short, I see some reflections of myself in her that I abhor, such as trying to project more intelligence then we actually posses,so...... well......I apologize Mack for that.
Did you just say I'm trying to project more intelligence than I posess?
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Thanks, walksalone, for answering! Re: the 2nd part, "especially since they are Christians," : I felt like you weren't just calling any kind of names, but mocking the fact they are Christians and so the names had to do with mocking their choice of Christianity. I don't like malicious name calling of any kind, but we all like to jokingly call our friends and family names within our joking zones. This, again, I felt was aimed toward their Christianity and that's why I wrote that.
Thank you, again, for your reslponse. I appreciate that very much! :)
I see JC, and understand how you might come to that conclusion so I will address where I think the assumption is wrong.
As I have previously stated, I have close, in the real, friends of many different belief systems, so no....I wouldn't call someone names based on that.
If so, why would you think that I havent addressed Mrs. Sherna as such?
Actually there are a few NDNs who I also see as bigots and often remind them of such.
As for Mack....well, to make a long story short, I see some reflections of myself in her that I abhor, such as trying to project more intelligence then we actually posses,so...... well......I apologize Mack for that.
Did you just say I'm trying to project more intelligence than I posess?
Yep
Sorry Marie you misinderstood- that was responding to walks
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I would guess that your definition for arsenokoitai is taken from a Christian oriented site because they all tend to say that same thing. Big surprise there - not really. I have looked extensively through a minimum of 50 sites (most likely more) for a definition of arsenokoitai. They all state there is no clear, concise definition. They all state it is an ambiguous word at best - it is a compund word with multiple definitions and is thought to have been coined by Paul from Leviticus. Leviticus discussed sacred prostitution so if Paul coined the word from that, it is believed that Paul condemned sacred prostitution and not homosexuality. I have looked at things regarding the Bible and this word written by umpteen scholars from every century, and while they all refer to the word, not one of them provides a definition either. What upsets me, actually it angers me, is what I wrote previously. One guy comes along in 1958 who is a translator for the New Amplified Bible. He alone decides to translate this mysterious Greek word into English and he decides it means 'homosexuals' - even though no such word exists in either Greek or Hebrew and even breaking it down, like you wrote it, does NOT follow any rules of translation. So now it stands, as he first wrote it, in the English-language Bible. To me, that was a very convenient way to insert his and society's homophobia into the Bible where it would be perpetuated throughout the years. That makes me angry!
The passage copied below is from 'The Christian Research Institute'. NOT from any pro-gay activist site or anything that can be construed as biased and/or favoring a homosexual lifestyle:
Theologian John H. Elliott, Professor Emeritus of Theology and Religious Studies at the University of San Francisco, has written one of the most thorough studies of 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 to date. He concludes that “nothing in 1 Corinthians, or for that matter in any other biblical writing, speaks directly of the biological or psychological condition of homosexuality or homosexual ‘orientation’ as this is understood today and as it concerns believing Christian gay persons intent on worshipping and serving God.”
He concludes from his research that the Bible in its entirety, as with 1 Corinthians specifically, offers sparse and ambiguous evidence concerning male-male sexual relationships, and is “conditioned by cultural perceptions and behavioral patterns too alien to those of modern times to provide an adequate basis for a contemporary ethic of homosexuality as homosexuality is currently understood.” If a case is to be made for or against the morality of homosexuality as it is understood in contemporary society, Elliott argues, it will have to be made on evidence other than 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and other similar passages contained in the Bible.
Well, I know the word homosexual didn't exist in the original language. The passage you copied from The Christian Research Institute is interesting. My thoughts are that, in the situation where a particular word is hard to interpret, the main focus should be taken off that individual word and look at it in context of what point the author is trying to make. If that means you can't force it to translate what you want it to, well tough! If Paul wasn't talking about sexual orientation here, and was referring to prostitution with young males, then that's what he was talking about! It is difficult I think for people who WANT to judge other people to take their focus off unimportant things and focus on the point.
I said earlier in this thread, if a homosexual person loves God, who cares what anyone else says about it! I cannot judge them. And although I believe it is a choice, I don't believe it's a choice that they make, like I make a choice to have coffee or tea for breakfast. I think it is psychological, and I won't deny I could be wrong about this being psychological from birth. I think that God can heal anybody of anything (I know you don't believe this, but I'm sharing my thoughts on where I stand in light of your information). I know people who thought they were born gay and are now heterosexual and happy, they say God healed them. But if a person is gay and they feel they were born that way, and they don't even believe they NEED to be healed, ok. What's important is that they choose God and love him, that they love people and show God to them. There is a song, an old song that says "They will know we are Christians by our love" I never heard the song "They will know we are Christians by our sex life"
God can use gay people to save people, God can use any sinner He chooses...He even uses me and I'm horrible! So, do I still think it's sin? Yes. But it really doesn't matter because I'm not better than a gay person, in fact a lot of them are probably better than me, so I really do want to set myself up here as some holier than thou, look down my nose at you cuz you're going to hell kind of person.
Anyhow, I think I have gotten to emotional and started rambling. :wave:
Let's pretend that God doesn't mind you having sex anyway you want, even though it clearly says you can't in his law. Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
3 Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write YOU about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write YOU to exhort YOU to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. 4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.
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Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
*bleep* is dangerous on so many levels so obviously no. It's not okay. Orgies? Controversial. There's a book called Sexual Revolution that you should read on the subject that discusses some pros/cons. I think anyone with an ounce of imagination can get the basic problems of it in their head though ;)
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Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
Eww, who would want to do an animal? Animals can't consent, they are not human..
But I think syphillis comes from a guy doin' a sheep.
The sheep = syphilis is pure :bs: Treponema pallidum is the agent that causes syphilis and it has only one known host - humans. It can't be 'grown' in vitro (an artificial environment) and the only environment outside the human body that it can be replicated is in the testes of rabbits. It can be transmitted through blood transfusions, live bacteria can enter a wound, and a syphilis carrier with open sores can and will infect anyone in close bodily contact with them. This is why pregnant women are still tested for syphilis and if they aren't and go untreated, their babies are born with many problems. There is a fairly high rate of death in poor countries for these babies also. Maybe you do, but I don't know any guys who have had sex with Bugs Bunny..... ;D Christopher Columbus is thought to have been the first to bring it to America, but I have never seen that in any history books for kids.
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Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
I still say this is a weak argument against homosexuality or homosexual marriage.
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Thanks, walksalone, for answering! Re: the 2nd part, "especially since they are Christians," : I felt like you weren't just calling any kind of names, but mocking the fact they are Christians and so the names had to do with mocking their choice of Christianity. I don't like malicious name calling of any kind, but we all like to jokingly call our friends and family names within our joking zones. This, again, I felt was aimed toward their Christianity and that's why I wrote that.
Thank you, again, for your reslponse. I appreciate that very much! :)
I see JC, and understand how you might come to that conclusion so I will address where I think the assumption is wrong.
As I have previously stated, I have close, in the real, friends of many different belief systems, so no....I wouldn't call someone names based on that.
If so, why would you think that I havent addressed Mrs. Sherna as such?
Actually there are a few NDNs who I also see as bigots and often remind them of such.
As for Mack....well, to make a long story short, I see some reflections of myself in her that I abhor, such as trying to project more intelligence then we actually posses,so...... well......I apologize Mack for that.
Did you just say I'm trying to project more intelligence than I posess?
Uhhhhhh...yes Ma'am, see what I mean?
yeah yeah, "how dare I" I got it.
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first of all there is no where in the bible that said god created gay humans is like when you choose to do something you do it is a choice.
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first of all there is no where in the bible that said god created gay humans is like when you choose to do something you do it is a choice.
Ricky, I am assuming you are a male......what would you think about have a sexual relationship with another male?
Hell no not with me, I love the ladies.
It would be quite difficult, and I would dare say impossible for you to choose to do that, right?
Doesn't take many brain cells to figure out that the argument, that it is a conscious choice that goes against our nature, is simply bull *bleep*.
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Thanks, walksalone, for answering! Re: the 2nd part, "especially since they are Christians," : I felt like you weren't just calling any kind of names, but mocking the fact they are Christians and so the names had to do with mocking their choice of Christianity. I don't like malicious name calling of any kind, but we all like to jokingly call our friends and family names within our joking zones. This, again, I felt was aimed toward their Christianity and that's why I wrote that.
Thank you, again, for your reslponse. I appreciate that very much! :)
I see JC, and understand how you might come to that conclusion so I will address where I think the assumption is wrong.
As I have previously stated, I have close, in the real, friends of many different belief systems, so no....I wouldn't call someone names based on that.
If so, why would you think that I havent addressed Mrs. Sherna as such?
Actually there are a few NDNs who I also see as bigots and often remind them of such.
As for Mack....well, to make a long story short, I see some reflections of myself in her that I abhor, such as trying to project more intelligence then we actually posses,so...... well......I apologize Mack for that.
Did you just say I'm trying to project more intelligence than I posess?
Uhhhhhh...yes Ma'am, see what I mean?
yeah yeah, "how dare I" I got it.
Actually I was just asking to make sure I understood right before I responded, I mean someone with my low level of intelligence could easily have misread what you said.
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:cat: Walksalone, I wish you would not call Annella and Mackenzie those sarcastic names when you talk to them.Ok, no problem at all
especially since they are Christians.UHHHHH, as opposed to what, exactly?
Thanks, walksalone, for answering! Re: the 2nd part, "especially since they are Christians," : I felt like you weren't just calling any kind of names, but mocking the fact they are Christians and so the names had to do with mocking their choice of Christianity. I don't like malicious name calling of any kind, but we all like to jokingly call our friends and family names within our joking zones. This, again, I felt was aimed toward their Christianity and that's why I wrote that.
Thank you, again, for your reslponse. I appreciate that very much! :)
I see JC, and understand how you might come to that conclusion so I will address where I think the assumption is wrong.
As I have previously stated, I have close, in the real, friends of many different belief systems, so no....I wouldn't call someone names based on that.
If so, why would you think that I havent addressed Mrs. Sherna as such?
Actually there are a few NDNs who I also see as bigots and often remind them of such.
As for Mack....well, to make a long story short, I see some reflections of myself in her that I abhor, such as trying to project more intelligence then we actually posses,so...... well......I apologize Mack for that.
Did you just say I'm trying to project more intelligence than I posess?
Uhhhhhh...yes Ma'am, see what I mean?
yeah yeah, "how dare I" I got it.
and what is it exactly that you're apologizing for?
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no comment
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Let's pretend that God doesn't mind you having sex anyway you want, even though it clearly says you can't in his law. Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
Loving God does not make ANY sin permissible. Loving God puts you in a relationship with Him, your sin is between you and God and He is faithful to complete His work in us. Do you think you are better and more holy than gays or people who have sex with animals? I got news for you; you're not. Neither am I.
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Let's pretend that God doesn't mind you having sex anyway you want, even though it clearly says you can't in his law. Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
Loving God does not make ANY sin permissible. Loving God puts you in a relationship with Him, your sin is between you and God and He is faithful to complete His work in us. Do you think you are better and more holy than gays or people who have sex with animals? I got news for you; you're not. Neither am I.
You have just earned a spot as my favorite person of the day today, Sherene!
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Doesn't take many brain cells to figure out that the argument, that it is a conscious choice that goes against our nature, is simply bull *bleep*.
Right-O! We should but this on the side of a bus. :thumbsup: lol
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Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
I still say this is a weak argument against homosexuality or homosexual marriage.
Actually the arguement is valid. Choosing to disobey God's law is no different then choosing to disobey state laws or country laws etc. Oh wait... You say they're legalizing homosexuality? Ok, get back to me when they legalize other stuff condemned in the bible such as bestiality and outdoor orgies.
P.S. They legalized prostitution in Nevada, I guess you think it's ok for your 17 to be a prostitute yes?
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Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
I still say this is a weak argument against homosexuality or homosexual marriage.
Actually the arguement is valid. Choosing to disobey God's law is no different then choosing to disobey state laws or country laws etc. Oh wait... You say they're legalizing homosexuality? Ok, get back to me when they legalize other stuff condemned in the bible such as bestiality and outdoor orgies.
P.S. They legalized prostitution in Nevada, I guess you think it's ok for your 17 to be a prostitute yes?
Have you read any of the discussion thus far, because your post suggests you haven't.
Bestiality is a weak argument because of consent... and I would equate it to raping animals. As a rape survivor, I take offense to equating homosexuality to this.
Orgies would be a weak argument because they are about sex, not love.
Many of the posters (not all, but many, myself included) on this topic believe homosexuality is not a choice and is about love, not just sex.
Now, before you accuse me of being a non-believer, I very much believe in g-d and love g-d. I am very strict in my personal views about my religion. I read my holy book and struggle with it and interpret it to the best of my ability. I will not, however, try to stifle someone else based on my holy book or use weak arguments like this to try to sway people over to my side.
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Bestiality is not the rape of animals. It's having sexual relations to animals. I'm sorry that you got raped though.
They are humans that are so close to their animals to the point that they do far more then tongue kiss the animals and the animal is AWARE of this. I guess since the human and the animal "love" each other it's ok though right? As for orgies have you heard of polyamorous? Different name, same thing
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Bestiality is not the rape of animals. It's having sexual relations to animals. I'm sorry that you got raped though.
They are humans that are so close to their animals to the point that they do far more then tongue kiss the animals and the animal is AWARE of this. I guess since the human and the animal "love" each other it's ok though right? As for orgies have you heard of polyamorous? Different name, same thing
Yep...you haven't read the posts. I have several groups of friends who are polyamorous. It works for them, disgusting to me. Orgies and polyamory are not, however, the same thing.
An animal cannot consent to sex with a human, just like a 15 year old cannot consent to sex with a 30 year old.
EDIT: And I was quite aware of being raped...didn't make it any less of a rape.
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Does that make bestiality and orges ok as long as you love God?
I still say this is a weak argument against homosexuality or homosexual marriage.
Actually the arguement is valid. Choosing to disobey God's law is no different then choosing to disobey state laws or country laws etc. Oh wait... You say they're legalizing homosexuality? Ok, get back to me when they legalize other stuff condemned in the bible such as bestiality and outdoor orgies.
P.S. They legalized prostitution in Nevada, I guess you think it's ok for your 17 to be a prostitute yes?
I am with Amy on this one, it's not only a weak argument, using and comparing the examples you gave makes it a non-argument, IMO.
For those of us who do not believe in god, or question god exists, the argument about disobeying state and/or laws of the country is in NO way the same thing. I do not disobey any laws pertaining to how I conduct myself as a part of society and for me, god doesn't enter into that, period. By saying that, you are wading very close to the waters filled with those who equate no god = no morals and no conscience - not true at all.
No one said anyone was 'legalizing' homosexuality. As for Nevada and prostitution being legal? There are MANY 17 and under prostitutes all over this country, both female and male, but you will NOT find them working for any legal brothel in Nevada.
I will not, however, try to stifle someone else based on my holy book or use weak arguments like this to try to sway people over to my side.
That is why I have so much respect for Amy, some others who post here, and close friends of mine who very much believe in and rely on god - they are open-minded and have a willingness to at least look beyond their own beliefs, even though they will not step away from them anymore than I will step away from mine.
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I will not, however, try to stifle someone else based on my holy book or use weak arguments like this to try to sway people over to my side.
That is why I have so much respect for Amy, some others who post here, and close friends of mine who very much believe in and rely on god - they are open-minded and have a willingness to at least look beyond their own beliefs, even though they will not step away from them anymore than I will step away from mine.
OMG...I almost cried when I read that. Thank you so much, Jordandog. That is one of the nicest things anyone has said about me. *^.^*
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OMG...I almost cried when I read that. Thank you so much, Jordandog. That is one of the nicest things anyone has said about me. *^.^*
I agree with jordandog!
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I will not, however, try to stifle someone else based on my holy book or use weak arguments like this to try to sway people over to my side.
That is why I have so much respect for Amy, some others who post here, and close friends of mine who very much believe in and rely on god - they are open-minded and have a willingness to at least look beyond their own beliefs, even though they will not step away from them anymore than I will step away from mine.
OMG...I almost cried when I read that. Thank you so much, Jordandog. That is one of the nicest things anyone has said about me. *^.^*
It's how I feel - thank you for giving me a reason to voice it.
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I will not, however, try to stifle someone else based on my holy book or use weak arguments like this to try to sway people over to my side.
That is why I have so much respect for Amy, some others who post here, and close friends of mine who very much believe in and rely on god - they are open-minded and have a willingness to at least look beyond their own beliefs, even though they will not step away from them anymore than I will step away from mine.
OMG...I almost cried when I read that. Thank you so much, Jordandog. That is one of the nicest things anyone has said about me. *^.^*
totally agree with this.
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Well I tried, people will find any excuse to have fun even if it is against Caesar's law or God's law, as for the person who made a comment about me being holier then others, did I say I was sinless or an apostle?
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Well I tried, people will find any excuse to have fun even if it is against Caesar's law or God's law, as for the person who made a comment about me being holier then others, did I say I was sinless or an apostle?
Why are you equating the word "sinless" with apostle?? Paul called himself the "chief sinner"!
Anyhow, no you didn't say were sinless, but sexual sin is not any worse than (be it homosexual sex or *bleep*) any sin you have committed. You tried to insinuate that I implied loving God gives people permission to sin, and that's not the case.
Most Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, (you will not convince most non Christians otherwise because we base our beliefs off the bible, which is dismissed by unbelievers). My point was that, it doesn't matter whether it's a sin or not, it's not our responsibility to judge sin, it's God's. If you look down on a person because of their sexual orientation then you are not exhibiting love, which is breaking the greatest commandment of all, which is a sin. Thereby making you just as in need of grace as the person you are condemning.
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Well I tried, people will find any excuse to have fun even if it is against Caesar's law or God's law, as for the person who made a comment about me being holier then others, did I say I was sinless or an apostle?
DEAR TEFLONFANATIC-------Why do you find it necessary to post a copy of your FC check on EVERY one of your post here in the forum????
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There is NO RELIGION, OR country that I have ever heard of that sanctions or approves of homesexual behavior, UNTIL just recently. This is since the HOMOSEXUAL POLITICAL MOVEMENT has been pushing their agenda on the POLITICALLY CORRECT NUTS here in the USA.
It is NOT RIGHT. IT ain't never been right, and it will NEVER BE RIGHT. God is the same YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER!!!
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God is the same YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER!!!
then he will forgive and it will be okay.