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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: ULuvCeCe on January 09, 2011, 06:03:16 am
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Congresswoman among 18 shot in Arizona attack; 6 dead
By Marc Lacey and David M. Herszenhorn
The New York Times
Posted: 01/09/2011 01:00:00 AM MST
Updated: 01/09/2011 01:05:28 AM MST
TUCSON — Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., and at least 17 others were shot Saturday morning when a gunman opened fire outside a Safeway supermarket where Giffords was meeting with constituents.
A 22-year-old suspect was in custody, law enforcement officials said. But at a Saturday evening news conference, investigators said they were looking for a possible accomplice who might have helped the gunman.
Six of the victims died. Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said among those killed were John Roll, the chief judge for the U.S. District Court for the District of Arizona, and a 9-year-old girl.
Giffords, 40, who the authorities said was the target of the attack, was said to be in very critical condition at the University Medical Center in Tucson, where she was operated on by a team of neurosurgeons. Dr. Peter Rhee, medical director of the hospital's trauma and critical-care unit, said she had been shot once in the head, "through and through," with the bullet going through her brain.
President Barack Obama said at a news conference that the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Robert Mueller, was on his way to Arizona to oversee the investigation.
Richard Kastigar, a supervisor with the Sheriff's Department, said the gunman was 22. Investigators identified him as Jared Lee Loughner.
Authorities were seen entering the house of someone by that name about 5 miles from the shooting scene, an unincorporated area north of Tucson.
The shootings raised questions about potential political motives, though officials did not speculate about what might have provoked the attack. Nevertheless, there were immediate reverberations as Democrats decried the fierce partisan atmosphere in Giffords' district and top Republicans quickly condemned any outbreaks of violence.
Sheriff notes political vitriol
Mark Kimble, an aide to Giffords, said the shooting occurred about 10 a.m., in a small area between an American flag and an Arizona flag. He said he went into the store for coffee, and as he came out the gunman was walking up and started firing.
"Everyone hit the ground," Kimble said. "It was so shocking. I still can't believe this happened."
The gunman wore sunglasses and perhaps a hood of some sort, he said.
The U.S. Capitol Police, which is investigating the shooting, cautioned lawmakers "to take reasonable and prudent precautions regarding their personal security."
Speaking of Giffords' condition, Rhee said at a news conference, "I can tell you at this time, I am very optimistic about her recovery." He added, "We cannot tell what kind of recovery, but I'm as optimistic as it can get in this kind of situation."
At a news conference Saturday evening, Sheriff Dupnik said there was "some reason to believe" that the suspect in custody did not act alone. Officials said they were seeking a person of interest, a 50-year-old, white male.
The sheriff said the shooting suspect "has kind of a troubled past" and had come to the attention of law enforcement before.
Though most officials did not speculate about what might have provoked the attack, Dupnik offered an emotional indictment of the state of political discourse.
"The anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous. And unfortunately, I think Arizona has become sort of the capital, we have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry," he said. "There's reason to believe that this individual might have a mental issue, and I think that people who are unbalanced might be especially susceptible to vitriol."
Giffords, who represents Arizona's 8th District in the southeastern corner of the state, has been an outspoken critic of Arizona's tough immigration law, which is focused on identifying, prosecuting and deporting illegal immigrants. She had come under criticism for her vote in favor of the Democrats' health care law.
Police said the Giffords district office was evacuated late in the day after a suspicious package was found. Police later cleared the scene.
Giffords was speaking to constituents in a supermarket alcove under a large white banner bearing her name when a man ran up and began firing. He tried to escape on foot but was tackled by a bystander and taken into custody by police. The event was outside a Safeway supermarket and was an opportunity for constituents to meet with Giffords after she was sworn in for a third term Wednesday.
She first arrived in Washington when Democrats took control of the House in 2006 and narrowly survived a re-election bid in November.
Outrage, concern bipartisan
"I saw the congresswoman talking to two people, and then this man suddenly came up and shot her in the head and then shot other people," said Dr. Steven Rayle, a witness to the shootings and a former emergency room doctor who now works at a hospice. "I think it was a semiautomatic, and he must have got off 20 rounds."
Rayle said that Giffords slumped to the ground and that staff members immediately rushed to her aid.
"A staffer had his arm around her, and she was leaning against the window of the Safeway. He had a jacket or towel on her head," the doctor said.
Congressional leaders of both parties issued statements throughout the day expressing outrage at the shooting as well as concern and prayers for Giffords and her family.
Giffords is a centrist Democrat who survived a tough re-election fight last year in part by stressing her strong support for gun rights and for tougher immigration controls, including tighter border security, even though she opposed the controversial Arizona law.
In an interview at the Capitol last week, Giffords said she was excited to count herself among the Democrats who joined the new House Republican majority in reading the Constitution aloud from the House floor. She said she was particularly pleased with being assigned the reading of the First Amendment.
"I wanted to be here," she said. "I think it's important. Reflecting on the Constitution in a bipartisan way is a good way to start the year."
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The other victims
• Nine-year-old Christina Taylor Green of Tucson, just elected to the student council at her school. Born on Sept. 11, 2001, she had gone with a neighbor to the event because she was interested in government. Christina was featured in a book, "Faces of Hope: Babies born on 9/11."
• Gabe Zimmerman, 30, Giffords' community outreach director; engaged to be married.
• Dorwin Stoddard, 76, pastor of the Mountain Avenue Church of Christ.
• Dorthy Murray, 76.
• Phyllis Scheck, 79.
What are your thoughts on this, do you think the person who did it was fueled by the way AZ handles their immigration laws?
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I really can't imagine what could "fuel" anyone to do something so awful. There are ways to be heard without killing other innocent people. Even if your target, in your opinion, is not innocent, you do not have the right to take their life. My prayers go out to all the victims and their families at this devestating time.
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I really can't imagine what could "fuel" anyone to do something so awful.
Something like this- see attached pic.
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I offer my deepest condolences and prayers for all of the victims of this savage shooting. No matter what the problems Arizona has, shooting the elected officials will NOT solve them. I am glad they caught the guy who did this and I hope there are not more lurking about waiting for their chance. :BangHead:
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I really can't imagine what could "fuel" anyone to do something so awful.
Something like this- see attached pic.
I'm with you, Jaymz. Seeing something like this coupled with the fact that this young man must be mentally unhinged. According to the breaking news tweets I received all day yesterday from CNN, apparently he had tried to enlist in the armed services and was denied. To see someone a person looks up to make a statement like "17 more to go!" could be the straw that sends someone already unstable over the edge.
But, again, he is not the first in politically motivated assassination attempts, and I daresay he will not be the last. It does not inspire confidence.
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this is an awful thing to happen in our lives. this link shows the kind of person presumably responsible for this newest terror we are living with .http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/jared-lee-loughner-gabrielle-giffords-shooter_n_806243.html
i read this and it goes along with the ideas that our young children are just totally messed up. i hope any of you with younger ones at home take time to really be part of their lives and make sure they don't join this type of idealism.
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latest update is the congresswoman is responding and the guy who shot her is up on charges. :BangHead:
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I really can't imagine what could "fuel" anyone to do something so awful.
Something like this- see attached pic.
I'm with you, Jaymz. Seeing something like this coupled with the fact that this young man must be mentally unhinged. According to the breaking news tweets I received all day yesterday from CNN, apparently he had tried to enlist in the armed services and was denied. To see someone a person looks up to make a statement like "17 more to go!" could be the straw that sends someone already unstable over the edge.
But, again, he is not the first in politically motivated assassination attempts, and I daresay he will not be the last. It does not inspire confidence.
Quite right Amy. Anyone who would commit such a crime is already mentally unhinged- with all the hateful rhetoric spewing forth on a daily basis from Palin/Limbaugh/Beck etc, is it any wonder that things like this happen?
And how the heck did this looney even get a gun?
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I find this to be fascinating. Apparently all Muslims are terrorists, but a young white dude who was turned down from enlisting in the military because he failed a drug test is a "fringe character."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/jared-laughner-gabrielle-giffords-shooter_n_806229.html
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Blaming this on any political party or affliliation with one is absolutely absurd. This man was completely and totally off his rocker. His reading list included Mein Kampf and the communist manefesto. To say that he was some sort of right wing nut is just trying to find a person to blame.
As far as ability to this person getting a gun, look at Chicago... they have the strictest firearm laws in America, yet highest crime... I see all of those guns laws working real well. Criminals will get a gun no matter what the laws are.
Also, this congresswoman had a 100% rating with the NRA. She's a huge gun advocate as well as a big advocate of gun rights and ownership. She herself is an owner as well as a conceled carry owner. Blaming this on gun laws is a moot point. I go back to Chicago. All laws do is keep law abiding citizens without the ability to own a gun or jump through massive hoops.
This guy was a whack job and trying to blame Rush or anyone else is just absolutely pointless.
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Also, where were the cops during all of this? Where was security? Why was it that the people that took down the shooter were private citizens (who were both armed and conceled carry registered gun owners)
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Why was it that the people that took down the shooter were private citizens (who were both armed and conceled carry registered gun owners)
What does it matter that they were armed and could carry concealed guns? Did they shoot Loughner?
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One interview though with the lady that wrestled the magazine from him she was quoted as saying "I had the courage to do so because I was armed I knew I had the ability to stop the situation without shooting, but could have had the situation led to it"
The other two that wrestled the guns away made very simular statements.
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I don't see it as blaming so much as adding fuel to the fire. Someone who is already mentally unbalanced who sees the words "17 more to go...Let's take back the 20 together!" may have needed that final straw... purely speculation here. I'm not saying it is Sarah Palin's fault, just that her words offered a form of personal encouragement to an unhinged person... regardless of her intention.
Politics has always been one of the most inflammatory topics of discussion, yet I see more vitriol coming from the conservatives than I do the liberals.
Here are some examples from the past year alone:
''I'm a huge supporter of women. What I'm not is a supporter of liberalism. Feminism is what I oppose. Feminism has led women astray. I love the women's movement -- especially when walking behind it.''
—Rush Limbaugh, responding to criticism that he is sexist and defending his selection as one of the judges at the 2010 Miss America Pageant, ''Fox News' Fox & Friends,'' February 3, 2010
''Do you know, where does this phrase 'separation of church and state' come from? It was not in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. ... The exact phrase 'separation of Church and State' came out of Adolph Hitler's mouth, that's where it comes from. So the next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State ask them why they're Nazis.''
—Glen Urquhart, the Tea Party-backed Republican nominee for the Delaware House seat held by Rep. Mike Castle, April 2010
''The Girl Scouts allow homosexuals and atheists to join their ranks, and they have become a pro-abortion, feminist training corps. If the Girl Scouts of America can't get back to teaching real character, perhaps it will be time to look for our cookies elsewhere.''
—Hans Zeiger, Republican candidate for Congress in Washinton state, on the deep moral threat to our country's dainty youth posed by the Girl Scouts of America
''It may be a blessing in disguise. ... Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. Haitians were originally under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon the third, or whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, we will serve you if you will get us free from the French. True story. And so, the devil said, okay it's a deal. Ever since they have been cursed by one thing after the other.''
—Pat Robertson, on the earthquake in Haiti that destroyed the capital and killed tens of thousands of people, Jan. 13, 2010
Ann Coulter: ''You will find liberals always rooting for savages against civilization.''
Bill O'Reilly: ''They didn't root for the Nazis against civilization.''
Coulter: ''Oh yes they did. ... It was only when Hitler invaded their precious Soviet Union that at the last minute they came in and suddenly started saying, 'Oh no, now you have to fight Hitler.'''
—'The O'Reilly Factor,' May 7, 2010
''My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You know why? Because they breed. You're facilitating the problem if you give an animal or a person ample food supply. They will reproduce, especially ones that don't think too much further than that. And so what you've got to do is you've got to curtail that type of behavior. They don't know any better.''
—South Carolina Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer (R), arguing that government food assistance to lower-income residents, including food stamps or free school lunches, encourages a culture of dependence, Jan 24. 2010
...and finally...
''Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms.''
—Tea Party-backed Texas GOP congressional candidate Stephen Broden, suggesting the violent overthrow of the U.S. government if Republicans don't win at the ballot box, interview with Dallas's WFAA-TV, Oct. 21, 2010
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Here is a great article that sums up how I feel about this: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/01/dont_politicize_this_tragedy.php
It occurs to me, while reading this article, that I forgot to point out that not only does Palin's map state "Let's take back the 20 together" that each of those 20 representatives are listed with a target in their respective states. How is that for subtlety?
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One interview though with the lady that wrestled the magazine from him she was quoted as saying "I had the courage to do so because I was armed I knew I had the ability to stop the situation without shooting, but could have had the situation led to it"
The other two that wrestled the guns away made very simular statements.
That strikes me as absurd. "I was able to physically wrest a gun away from a maniac, but only because having a gun gave me courage!" What an amazing trinket a gun must be, to bestow such powers.
Another anecdote from a gun-weilder who was at the scene: http://www.slate.com/id/2280794/
It occurs to me, while reading this article, that I forgot to point out that not only does Palin's map state "Let's take back the 20 together" that each of those 20 representatives are listed with a target in their respective states. How is that for subtlety?
Amy, Amy, please, those were only surveyor marks! Whocouldanode a crazy would think they were targets? You libruls just hate America.
I think people that don't like people like Palin, Rush, etc. have projected their own feelings onto this situation to blame them and make them look at fault. They had nothing to do with it.
These people (luminaries of the conservative movement) openly foment hate with their rhetoric, day after day after day. I'd say that's a little different than "rock music" and "movies."
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It really does not matter what "fueled" his action. Its the fact that he saw fit to carry it out with apparently no regard for (anyone's) life. It seems to me that our society has come to believe that the only way to settle anything is with violence. My condolences to those directly and indirectly affected by this sad affair.
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My heart and prays go out to the loves ones that lost someone in the arizona attack and i am sorry that the congresswoman got hurt in this attack
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Obama “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,”
Baldwin "all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! [crowd cheers] Wait! Shut up! Shut up! No shut up! I’m not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families"
Democrat Paul Kanjorski “That Scott down there that’s running for governor of Florida,” Mr. Kanjorski said. “Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him [sic] and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him.“
McCaskill told the press that if democrats were not allowed to raise taxes on the rich, “It really is time for Americans to take up pitchforks.“
Obama “Hit back twice as hard“, union thug members of the SEIU beat a black man, Kenneth Gladney nearly to death. This happened a day after his comments to SEIU members.
Yeah, you can keep trying to "lay blame" but I can find just as many prime examples of how you're being nothing more than a hypocrite in trying to blame Tea Party, Republicans, or anyone else of the right. Especially since you know, reading things like the communist manefesto and regarding it as a brilliant book is such a conservative viewpoint.
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That being said, Palin and Rush and the rest of them are still idiot warmongering neocons that need to fade away and go back to alaska or wherever they're from. Please don't read what I wrote as support of them, because believe me, I do not.
Reading from Lew Rockwell today and I think he summed it up very well and I'll quote it here.
“President Reagan said, ‘We must reject the idea that every time a law’s broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.’ Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own. They begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state, not with those who listen to talk radio, not with maps of swing districts used by both sides of the aisle, not with law-abiding citizens who respectfully exercise their First Amendment rights at campaign rallies, not with those who proudly voted in the last election.”(emphasis mine being Lew Rockwell)
It appears Palin and Rush are feeling unjustly blamed for the actions of an extremist; perhaps they can ask Muslims for advice on how to deal with that?
Also, I’m sure it’s beyond Sarah’s mental capacity to reconcile her quote above with her neo-conservative, war-mongering foreign policy.
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Of course, Sarah is the real victim here. Why in the world should anyone call her out on her hate all in the name of family values?
It is true that she did not pull the trigger. Loughner may not have even been a fan of hers. The issue, though, is that her type of pontification only serves to stoke fires rather than snuff them out. All politicians make statements that are deemed inflammatory, but Palin is the only one I've seen that consistently gives the impression that the opposition isn't worthy of classification as a human being worthy of life.
Call me a hypocrite if you wish. I stand by my statements. Sarah Palin needs to take responsibility for her actions instead of crying that the big bad public just doesn't understand her and wants to put the blame on her shoulders...
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I hope everyone that was in that shooting is okay and i hope that the guy that started it is in jail
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The shooting incident in Arizona is such a tragedy for our country.
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That SOB.....he needs to be "put down" like an animal. He is not human...doesn't deserve jail...he is an animal...and bad animals get put down.
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well i read a post from another site which said blaming guns for shooting people is like blaming spoons for oprah being fat. i know stupid but it makes sense.
on the other note laughner goes for hearing tomorrow. let's hope someone has enough sense to keep this lunatic locked up until they put him to sleep.
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It appears Palin and Rush are feeling unjustly blamed for the actions of an extremist; perhaps they can ask Muslims for advice on how to deal with that?
Also, I’m sure it’s beyond Sarah’s mental capacity to reconcile her quote above with her neo-conservative, war-mongering foreign policy.
I just re-read what you wrote here, and I wanted to quote it and tell you that I think it is beautiful!
The more and more that I am reading what you say, Matt, the more I am liking you, even though we disagree on a great many things (Rand Paul, abortion, gun control, etc.). I can only hope that more people can begin to like the ones they disagree with and debate in a civilized manner. However, this does not sell newspapers... :dontknow:
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I can't take credit for it, I just believe it. It came from the Lew Rockwell article I posted earlier.
People like Palin and Huckabee and the rest of them that claim to be so "prolife" yet have no qualms with hurting countless people in other countries upsets me greatly.
An article again from LR makes a great point about the March for Life today and how hypocritical it is in a lot of ways. These people are strongly against Abortion, yet are completely OK with murdering countless people in Iraq and Afghanastan. I don't see how you can be against one, and yet for the other. Palin exhibits this with her neocon warmongering stance. Same with most of the them; DeMint, Huckabee, Romney. Yet, they continually rank high in straw polls as being good christian leaders. It doesn't equate to me at all.
We may disagree Amy on a lot, but I think deep down if you look at politics as a circle as opposed to a right / left line, you and I would meet up a lot more and agree on a lot more than we actually think. We can at least discuss things without getting upset at each other and that's what fuels the discussion. You're right though, discussing while disagreeing doesn't sell newspapers or market shares on TV.
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I still think of this horrible tragedy everyday....hope all the families are doing well.
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anyone who doesn't believe in God or miracles needs to pay attention to the miraculous recovery this fine woman is making.