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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: teflonfanatic on February 01, 2011, 03:45:50 pm
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I'll represent both believers and atheists who want to get an accurate description of the trinity if possible. I'll make a statement or two then i'll ask a question, i'll respond to the one who gives the first sufficient answer meaning it's not just a bunch of stitched scriptures or one word statements but explaining WHY
Anyway my first question is about the Athanasian creed is there statement 100% accurate of todays trinity?
"there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, nonr greater or less then another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God."
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It's not literally spoken of as "trinity" in the Bible, but it is believed that they are as three in one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (some people say Ghost.) Each one represents their own identity and yet they are one and the same.
God the Father is over all and has always been (and was more prominent in the Old Testament.) Jesus was born and became more prominent in the New Testament until His death, burial, and resurrection. He in now at the right hand of God in Heaven and is our Intercessor between us and God. In the New Testament the Holy Spirit is spoken of as being our comforter during the lifetime of Christians until Jesus comes again to rapture us up with Him.
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I personally do not find it hard to believe at all. We as humans have a body, spirit, and emotions...sounds like three different parts of the same person to me. :)
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I personally do not find it hard to believe at all. We as humans have a body, spirit, and emotions...sounds like three different parts of the same person to me. :)
How often do your body and spirit talk to each other, and how often does your spirit and emotions separate, one becoming mortal, and the other immortal?
I don't want to tarnish anyone's beliefs, but the Trinity doctrine is confusing at best, blasphemous at worst.
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I personally do not find it hard to believe at all. We as humans have a body, spirit, and emotions...sounds like three different parts of the same person to me. :)
How often do your body and spirit talk to each other, and how often does your spirit and emotions separate, one becoming mortal, and the other immortal?
I don't want to tarnish anyone's beliefs, but the Trinity doctrine is confusing at best, blasphemous at worst.
I find your remarks very offense because you personally quoted my text. You don't even know where I stand to make such a harsh statement.
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I'm done with this thread.
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Sorry you feel that way. I don't know you or your views, nor was I trying to target you. I merely used your example. I wont quote you next time ;)
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It's not literally spoken of as "trinity" in the Bible, but it is believed that they are as three in one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (some people say Ghost.) Each one represents their own identity and yet they are one and the same.
God the Father is over all and has always been (and was more prominent in the Old Testament.) Jesus was born and became more prominent in the New Testament until His death, burial, and resurrection. He in now at the right hand of God in Heaven and is our Intercessor between us and God. In the New Testament the Holy Spirit is spoken of as being our comforter during the lifetime of Christians until Jesus comes again to rapture us up with Him.
I would like to ask you why do some say Ghost and other say spirit?
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That is an interesting question, actually. Ghost and Spirit are both used in the Bible, but I'm not sure about the significance of either term, or why both are used interchangeably. Ghost is only used in connection of the Holy Ghost, which is the third member of the Godhead, while spirit is used to describe many things, including the Holy Ghost.
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I personally do not find it hard to believe at all. We as humans have a body, spirit, and emotions...sounds like three different parts of the same person to me. :)
How often do your body and spirit talk to each other, and how often does your spirit and emotions separate, one becoming mortal, and the other immortal?
I don't want to tarnish anyone's beliefs, but the Trinity doctrine is confusing at best, blasphemous at worst.
I find your remarks very offense because you personally quoted my text. You don't even know where I stand to make such a harsh statement.
Bonskibon, why are you getting upset? Mstachitus was actually agreeing with you. The post was..."the trinity doctrine is confusing at best". Your post was a Oneness post, and mstachitus post was in agreement, if you would have read it in it's proper context.
This is a Debate and Discussion thread and up for either.
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It is only the King James Version of the Bible which uses the term “Holy Ghost.” It occurs 90 times in the KJV. The term “Holy Spirit” occurs 7 times in the KJV. There is no clear reason as to why the KJV translators used Ghost in most places and then Spirit in a few. The exact same Greek and Hebrew words are translated "ghost" and "spirit" in the KJV in different occurrences of the words. By "ghost," the KJV translators did not intend to communicate the idea of "the spirit of a deceased person." In 1611, when the KJV was originally translated, the word "ghost" primarily referred to "an immaterial being."
(Courtesy of GotQuestions.org)
That was a good question.
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It is only the King James Version of the Bible which uses the term “Holy Ghost.” It occurs 90 times in the KJV. The term “Holy Spirit” occurs 7 times in the KJV. There is no clear reason as to why the KJV translators used Ghost in most places and then Spirit in a few. The exact same Greek and Hebrew words are translated "ghost" and "spirit" in the KJV in different occurrences of the words. By "ghost," the KJV translators did not intend to communicate the idea of "the spirit of a deceased person." In 1611, when the KJV was originally translated, the word "ghost" primarily referred to "an immaterial being."
(Courtesy of GotQuestions.org)
That was a good question.
I don't think it's playing with text to translate it either way, I think people have their own personal opinions of the words, when I see spirit I think formless energy like how spirit is really translated as wind(hebrew word for it is Ruach I forgot the Greek), when I hear the word ghost casper and the gang pops up lol. I guess the same can be said of spirit though either way it's probably irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
Anyway my next question is why is the Godhead exclusive to three persons(Jah, Jesus and spirit with no name) and if so why is the divine nature shared?(2 Peter 1:1-4)
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
Anyway my next question is why is the Godhead exclusive to three persons(Jah, Jesus and spirit with no name) and if so why is the divine nature shared?(2 Peter 1:1-4)
There is so much to be given in the answers you want, so I'm going to include a link for you that helps to understand the Trinity. I hope this helps:
http://biggergod.com/trinity.html
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
Anyway my next question is why is the Godhead exclusive to three persons(Jah, Jesus and spirit with no name) and if so why is the divine nature shared?(2 Peter 1:1-4)
There is so much to be given in the answers you want, so I'm going to include a link for you that helps to understand the Trinity. I hope this helps:
http://biggergod.com/trinity.html
Thank you and i'll read it but the point of this thread is for churchgoers here to accurately explain it to both atheists(who i'm not) and believers who reject the trinity(which I am and believe me there's many). I've watched many debates and read many pages about the trinity both for and against. I need one question answered at a time and not 20+ questions answered at once. Anyway the questions still stands.
I just speed read the article basically if you have three computers who are all fully computers and they are different from each other they are not three computers because the three computers are so connected to each other it's as if it's one. That's the only way I can understand the link except God is not a computer of course. The problem with this is it's Never one in any real since to me. anyway I digress srry if I can't accept the "mystery"
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Well, in each of my posts in your thread, I have tried my best to explain it the best I could. I included the link as well, that is excellent in explaining the trinity. I tried to answer your question and I'm really sorry you don't consider my responses as a help (quote by you): "Thank you and i'll read it but the point of this thread is for churchgoers here to accurately explain it to both atheists(who i'm not) and believers who reject the trinity(which I am and believe me there's many). I've watched many debates and read many pages about the trinity both for and against. I need one question answered at a time and not 20+ questions answered at once. Anyway the questions still stands."
Perhaps if you go back and really read what people are answering to you, including doing your own research, and even speaking with your pastor or reliable source, you will actually find what you are looking for. I spent quite a bit of time checking in the Bible, online, and study books, to make sure that I was answering what I thought you were wanting to know. Even then, I guess I didn't pass the test for you. I don't know how else to answer anymore on this because I already did the best I could. I truly hope and pray you will find the truth about the trinity and not just what you are wanting to see out of it for your own gain.
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Well, in each of my posts in your thread, I have tried my best to explain it the best I could. I included the link as well, that is excellent in explaining the trinity. I tried to answer your question and I'm really sorry you don't consider my responses as a help (quote by you): "Thank you and i'll read it but the point of this thread is for churchgoers here to accurately explain it to both atheists(who i'm not) and believers who reject the trinity(which I am and believe me there's many). I've watched many debates and read many pages about the trinity both for and against. I need one question answered at a time and not 20+ questions answered at once. Anyway the questions still stands."
Perhaps if you go back and really read what people are answering to you, including doing your own research, and even speaking with your pastor or reliable source, you will actually find what you are looking for. I spent quite a bit of time checking in the Bible, online, and study books, to make sure that I was answering what I thought you were wanting to know. Even then, I guess I didn't pass the test for you. I don't know how else to answer anymore on this because I already did the best I could. I truly hope and pray you will find the truth about the trinity and not just what you are wanting to see out of it for your own gain.
Well ... that's the thing isn't it? No matter how much you study on the topic of the trinity, it will never make sense. For one thing, it was never meant to make sense when they thought it up. It was meant to make God a mystical, incomprehensible being, who no mortal could ever hope to understand or have anything in common with.
Interesting that we were meant to learn of God, to be perfect as he is perfect, and that we were created in His image. He is literally our father, and the closer we come to him, the more we will learn of him and comprehend his true nature. He wants us to know him.
"For this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
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mstachitus: You are absolutely right. When I responded with that last comment, I was reminded by a friend that ultimately we should be striving to bring others to know the Lord, and to be serving our Lord until He comes again. I wholeheartedly agree with you that the trinity, as well as other issues having to do with God, are not meant for us to totally understand since God's mind is higher than our minds. So, I thank you, too, for reminding me of that - all I was doing was trying to keep pushing against the fence with no way to knock it down! :)
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Well, in each of my posts in your thread, I have tried my best to explain it the best I could. I included the link as well, that is excellent in explaining the trinity. I tried to answer your question and I'm really sorry you don't consider my responses as a help (quote by you): "Thank you and i'll read it but the point of this thread is for churchgoers here to accurately explain it to both atheists(who i'm not) and believers who reject the trinity(which I am and believe me there's many). I've watched many debates and read many pages about the trinity both for and against. I need one question answered at a time and not 20+ questions answered at once. Anyway the questions still stands."
Perhaps if you go back and really read what people are answering to you, including doing your own research, and even speaking with your pastor or reliable source, you will actually find what you are looking for. I spent quite a bit of time checking in the Bible, online, and study books, to make sure that I was answering what I thought you were wanting to know. Even then, I guess I didn't pass the test for you. I don't know how else to answer anymore on this because I already did the best I could. I truly hope and pray you will find the truth about the trinity and not just what you are wanting to see out of it for your own gain.
Well ... that's the thing isn't it? No matter how much you study on the topic of the trinity, it will never make sense. For one thing, it was never meant to make sense when they thought it up. It was meant to make God a mystical, incomprehensible being, who no mortal could ever hope to understand or have anything in common with.
Interesting that we were meant to learn of God, to be perfect as he is perfect, and that we were created in His image. He is literally our father, and the closer we come to him, the more we will learn of him and comprehend his true nature. He wants us to know him.
"For this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
It can't be said any better than this above.
The more you study,and draw closer to God, the more He reveals Himself to us. The trinity doesn't make sense, and is confusing at best.
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mstachitus: You are absolutely right. When I responded with that last comment, I was reminded by a friend that ultimately we should be striving to bring others to know the Lord, and to be serving our Lord until He comes again. I wholeheartedly agree with you that the trinity, as well as other issues having to do with God, are not meant for us to totally understand since God's mind is higher than our minds. So, I thank you, too, for reminding me of that - all I was doing was trying to keep pushing against the fence with no way to knock it down! :)
I'm sorry if I seem confrontational. It is not my intent to put down the beliefs of others. I hope you take my posts in the way they were intended, which is merely my view on things.
In the end, it is every persons right to worship in the manner that so pleases them, or even to not worship at all. I still believe that there is one true doctrine of Christ, and that His church organization exists in its fullness, but the agency of man is of supreme importance, so we should never try to impose our beliefs onto others. Loving persuasion and meekness will go so much farther than arrogant, forceful decrees.
If you choose to believe in the Trinity, you have a right to continue, and I support you in your agency. I choose not to, and I expect my own beliefs to be respected as well.
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Well, in each of my posts in your thread, I have tried my best to explain it the best I could. I included the link as well, that is excellent in explaining the trinity. I tried to answer your question and I'm really sorry you don't consider my responses as a help (quote by you): "Thank you and i'll read it but the point of this thread is for churchgoers here to accurately explain it to both atheists(who i'm not) and believers who reject the trinity(which I am and believe me there's many). I've watched many debates and read many pages about the trinity both for and against. I need one question answered at a time and not 20+ questions answered at once. Anyway the questions still stands."
Perhaps if you go back and really read what people are answering to you, including doing your own research, and even speaking with your pastor or reliable source, you will actually find what you are looking for. I spent quite a bit of time checking in the Bible, online, and study books, to make sure that I was answering what I thought you were wanting to know. Even then, I guess I didn't pass the test for you. I don't know how else to answer anymore on this because I already did the best I could. I truly hope and pray you will find the truth about the trinity and not just what you are wanting to see out of it for your own gain.
I am reading peoples comments and doing my own research hence the watching apostate videos and watching trinitarian debates and looking up the "proof texts" etc.
"I truly hope and pray you will find the truth about the trinity and not just what you are wanting to see out of it for your own gain."
No offense but your defeating your own prayer, God uses us to promote the truth about him, by closing the door on an interested one(me) your giving up on an interested one. You could have also took time off few weeks/months I don't care to research the question and come back no one knows everything. If I wanted to make a trinity bashing topic I would've made it but instead I humbled myself and not made one remark towards the doctrine I just asked questions based off what I heard and read was it's teachings.
"Even then, I guess I didn't pass the test for you. I don't know how else to answer anymore on this because I already did the best I could."
It's true questions are a test but this isn't an exam or anything this is simply getting to the heart of the matter.
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mstachitus: You are absolutely right. When I responded with that last comment, I was reminded by a friend that ultimately we should be striving to bring others to know the Lord, and to be serving our Lord until He comes again. I wholeheartedly agree with you that the trinity, as well as other issues having to do with God, are not meant for us to totally understand since God's mind is higher than our minds. So, I thank you, too, for reminding me of that - all I was doing was trying to keep pushing against the fence with no way to knock it down! :)
I'm sorry if I seem confrontational. It is not my intent to put down the beliefs of others. I hope you take my posts in the way they were intended, which is merely my view on things.
In the end, it is every persons right to worship in the manner that so pleases them, or even to not worship at all. I still believe that there is one true doctrine of Christ, and that His church organization exists in its fullness, but the agency of man is of supreme importance, so we should never try to impose our beliefs onto others. Loving persuasion and meekness will go so much farther than arrogant, forceful decrees.
If you choose to believe in the Trinity, you have a right to continue, and I support you in your agency. I choose not to, and I expect my own beliefs to be respected as well.
Believe me, I didn't take you as confrontational!! I was agreeing with you. I wasn't getting anywhere with my comments with the other poster. You just helped to put my perspective back in place. I really appreciate what you have to offer. I look forward to getting to know you! :)
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Teflonfanatic, All I was meaning is that everything I wrote to you, it was as if my answers weren't what you were either looking for or wanting as answers. I am not going to push anything on anyone and I felt you were finished with what I had to offer.
(quote by you): "Thank you and i'll read it but the point of this thread is for churchgoers here to accurately explain it to both atheists(who i'm not) and believers who reject the trinity(which I am and believe me there's many). I've watched many debates and read many pages about the trinity both for and against. I need one question answered at a time and not 20+ questions answered at once. Anyway the questions still stands."
**You want it accurately explained - I thought I was trying to answer as accurately as I could.
**You need one question answered at a time - I was answering one question and it was about the trinity concept. I did not try and answer 20+ questions because you only asked one and I was answering one.
So, to stop getting in your way, I backed off. In no way would I drop anyone seeking for anwers, but I will not upset people by pushing and I won't keep on when it seems like my anwers don't count.
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Teflonfanatic, All I was meaning is that everything I wrote to you, it was as if my answers weren't what you were either looking for or wanting as answers. I am not going to push anything on anyone and I felt you were finished with what I had to offer.
(quote by you): "Thank you and i'll read it but the point of this thread is for churchgoers here to accurately explain it to both atheists(who i'm not) and believers who reject the trinity(which I am and believe me there's many). I've watched many debates and read many pages about the trinity both for and against. I need one question answered at a time and not 20+ questions answered at once. Anyway the questions still stands."
**You want it accurately explained - I thought I was trying to answer as accurately as I could.
**You need one question answered at a time - I was answering one question and it was about the trinity concept. I did not try and answer 20+ questions because you only asked one and I was answering one.
No you were answering satisfactory and you weren't pushing or making me upset come back, my fail communication :'( no seriously come back.
So, to stop getting in your way, I backed off. In no way would I drop anyone seeking for anwers, but I will not upset people by pushing and I won't keep on when it seems like my anwers don't count.
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I believe in the trinity. Of course I have run into people who dont believe in it they say the word trinity is not in the bible.Well that is true however you will find that in the book of Gen that God said let US make man in OUR own image. Man was nade a trinity. Im not going to argue this point but I believe in the trinity whole heartedly! :notworthy:
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
No you were answering satisfactory and you weren't pushing or making me upset come back, my fail communication :'( no seriously come back.
Ok. Thank you!
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I'll represent both believers and atheists who want to get an accurate description of the trinity if possible. I'll make a statement or two then i'll ask a question, i'll respond to the one who gives the first sufficient answer meaning it's not just a bunch of stitched scriptures or one word statements but explaining WHY
Anyway my first question is about the Athanasian creed is there statement 100% accurate of todays trinity?
"there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, nonr greater or less then another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God."
Continue to send the WORD. GOD says those who spread the good news have beautiful feet!!! FYI: HIS MOTHER NAMED HIM YESHUA - AMERICAN CALLS HIM JESUS... There are no "J"s in the Hebrew language... I pray we all agree HE was Jewish... thanks again for beginning this string.
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Well for they the father, the son, and the holy spirit are totally separate. They cooperate but they are not one in the same. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove. Separate from Jesus. The Father is one Person, The Son is another separate Person, and the Holy Spirit is just that a Spirit which is the way you can feel God's presence because we can not see God. If we were to see God we would surely die. Jacob was the only fortunate man to have wrestled with God and live. God made him limp for the rest of his life because he spared him.
This is my opinion. This is how I view it. I don't want anyone putting me down because I think like this. I'm not putting anyone else down on this thread. Please respect my opinion. Thank You.
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Well for they the father, the son, and the holy spirit are totally separate. They cooperate but they are not one in the same. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove. Separate from Jesus. The Father is one Person, The Son is another separate Person, and the Holy Spirit is just that a Spirit which is the way you can feel God's presence because we can not see God. If we were to see God we would surely die. Jacob was the only fortunate man to have wrestled with God and live. God made him limp for the rest of his life because he spared him.
This is my opinion. This is how I view it. I don't want anyone putting me down because I think like this. I'm not putting anyone else down on this thread. Please respect my opinion. Thank You.
It was later revealed that Jacob wrestled with an angel. Sounds like God is a community instead of a singular spirit.
My next question since the other one is near impossible to answer is why is there no visions of the holy spirit in the bible? There's not one vision in the whole bible of seeing the holy spirit yet people saw God and Jesus in visions.
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Well for they the father, the son, and the holy spirit are totally separate. They cooperate but they are not one in the same. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove. Separate from Jesus. The Father is one Person, The Son is another separate Person, and the Holy Spirit is just that a Spirit which is the way you can feel God's presence because we can not see God. If we were to see God we would surely die. Jacob was the only fortunate man to have wrestled with God and live. God made him limp for the rest of his life because he spared him.
This is my opinion. This is how I view it. I don't want anyone putting me down because I think like this. I'm not putting anyone else down on this thread. Please respect my opinion. Thank You.
It was later revealed that Jacob wrestled with an angel. Sounds like God is a community instead of a singular spirit.
My next question since the other one is near impossible to answer is why is there no visions of the holy spirit in the bible? There's not one vision in the whole bible of seeing the holy spirit yet people saw God and Jesus in visions.
Teflonfanatic, that's because when Jesus rose again and later appeared, he told his disciples that He, himself would not be seen now - it was now His job to be with His Father. But that He would have the Holy Spirit to comfort us until He returns again. And as you know, a "spirit" or "ghost" is not actually seen, although some people say they have seen ghosts.
Ephesians 1:13, 14 says, "In whom (Jesus) ye also trusted (by the people in the New Testament before his death, burial, and resurrection), after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that (his resurrection and going to be with His Father), ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption (when He comes again) of the purchased possession (the saved in Christ), unto the praise of his glory."
I hope this helps, even if just a little.
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Well for they the father, the son, and the holy spirit are totally separate. They cooperate but they are not one in the same. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit came down in the form of a dove. Separate from Jesus. The Father is one Person, The Son is another separate Person, and the Holy Spirit is just that a Spirit which is the way you can feel God's presence because we can not see God. If we were to see God we would surely die. Jacob was the only fortunate man to have wrestled with God and live. God made him limp for the rest of his life because he spared him.
This is my opinion. This is how I view it. I don't want anyone putting me down because I think like this. I'm not putting anyone else down on this thread. Please respect my opinion. Thank You.
It was later revealed that Jacob wrestled with an angel. Sounds like God is a community instead of a singular spirit.
My next question since the other one is near impossible to answer is why is there no visions of the holy spirit in the bible? There's not one vision in the whole bible of seeing the holy spirit yet people saw God and Jesus in visions.
Teflonfanatic, that's because when Jesus rose again and later appeared, he told his disciples that He, himself would not be seen now - it was now His job to be with His Father. But that He would have the Holy Spirit to comfort us until He returns again. And as you know, a "spirit" or "ghost" is not actually seen, although some people say they have seen ghosts.
Ephesians 1:13, 14 says, "In whom (Jesus) ye also trusted (by the people in the New Testament before his death, burial, and resurrection), after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that (his resurrection and going to be with His Father), ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption (when He comes again) of the purchased possession (the saved in Christ), unto the praise of his glory."
I hope this helps, even if just a little.
Actually spirits can be seen if God allows you to, well back then anyway(Numbers 22:31)(Daniel 7:13,14) is some examples. In the New covenant you have(Acts 7:55-56). These are just some examples of seeing spirits by visions.
Anyway The question still stands and you helped a little. :)
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Once the Holy Spirit was given as our Comforter and Jesus went to be with His Father, there wasn't the need for the visions. Everything had been fulfilled up to that point. We also have the Bible to help us understand many things and questions of today.
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The visions in the book of Acts and Revelation was AFTER Jesus went to heaven and they received the holy spirit as the comforter. However I agree they served their purpose and we only need the bible now. The question still stands however which is why is the holy spirit not seen in visions?
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If there are no need for visions in today's world, then the question is answered and should not still stand. We need to remember, too, that some things are not for us to know (at least not now) because God's mind is higher than ours. That may be something you will find out when He comes again.
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Interesting discussion. I am personally a Oneness believer myself. I'll quote James K Roberts:
Jesus Christ possessed a dual nature. He was the only begotten Son of God, there has never been anyone like him before or since. One of the strong points of Trinitarian doctrine is its easy explanation of Christ's relationship with his Father. From the Trinitarian view, this is just two Persons of the Godhead interacting. Since this view defines the Father and the Son as two different Persons of the Godhead, it is easy to accept the interaction of two persons when we read of Jesus praying to the Father or speaking of Him. That is just the way any other two persons would interact, and it makes the Trinitarian explanation seem very plausible. But Jesus was not just exactly like every other person. We are born with just a human nature, but Jesus had both a human and Divine nature. This being so, another explanation is very possible and the Trinitarian view makes no use of it whatsoever. On the other hand, Oneness theology says that Jesus prayed as a human; he spoke as human when he referred to having a Father and a mother. God does not have parents, He is self-existent, but the man Christ had a Father and mother. Jesus prayed because as a human he needed to pray. His Diety did not need to pray. We never see the Father praying to the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit praying to the FAther, or either the Holy Spirit or the FAther praying to the Son.http://www.wupc.org/downloads/OnenessVsTrinity.pdf
There is some good information in that article and it even clarified some things for me that I didn't quite understand. Check it out. Hope it helps.
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Thanks much, Sherene! Also, it's great to "see" you again, in here! :)
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If there are no need for visions in today's world, then the question is answered and should not still stand. We need to remember, too, that some things are not for us to know (at least not now) because God's mind is higher than ours. That may be something you will find out when He comes again.
I was referring to visions back in bible times but since it's not relevant today i'll let it pass.
My next question is who are the anointed ones or saints according to God sons or brothers?
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Thanks much, Sherene! Also, it's great to "see" you again, in here! :)
Lol, I needed a break Julie. Had to go through some stuff in my "real" life. ;)
My next question is who are the anointed ones or saints according to God sons or brothers?
I don't really know what that means. I believe that all people who pick up their cross and follow Christ have the potential to be anointed. When you submit your vessel to the Holy Spirit to be used of God then you are anointed. And nobody is a saint, we are all sinners saved by grace. I don't know if that answers your question because I didn't quite understand the meaning, but that is my belief anyway.
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If there are no need for visions in today's world, then the question is answered and should not still stand. We need to remember, too, that some things are not for us to know (at least not now) because God's mind is higher than ours. That may be something you will find out when He comes again.
I was referring to visions back in bible times but since it's not relevant today i'll let it pass.
My next question is who are the anointed ones or saints according to God sons or brothers?
Don't want to take this off topic, but visions are most certainly for today and do happen. While they are mostly of a personal nature to the individual, they can be given to leadership for the edification of the body or warn of things to come, etc. Visions or "waking dreams" are spoke of in the Bible in the Old and New Testaments.
Acts 2:17-18
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
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I think in my own limited way of thinking, I'm trying to say that there are no visions of the Holy Spirit itself. I should have clarified that more but I was thinking it and not explaining what I was really meaning. I agree with Acts regarding visions in the last days, which I believe are closer than we even believe.
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I think in my own limited way of thinking, I'm trying to say that there are no visions of the Holy Spirit itself. I should have clarified that more but I was thinking it and not explaining what I was really meaning. I agree with Acts regarding visions in the last days, which I believe are closer than we even believe.
Ah, gotcha.
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Thanks much, Sherene! Also, it's great to "see" you again, in here! :)
Lol, I needed a break Julie. Had to go through some stuff in my "real" life. ;)
My next question is who are the anointed ones or saints according to God sons or brothers?
I don't really know what that means. I believe that all people who pick up their cross and follow Christ have the potential to be anointed. When you submit your vessel to the Holy Spirit to be used of God then you are anointed. And nobody is a saint, we are all sinners saved by grace. I don't know if that answers your question because I didn't quite understand the meaning, but that is my belief anyway.
Somewhere in the bible Jesus says that anyone who dies for his sake is MY mother, brother, sister and father.(i'll get the verse later) Whether Jesus meant this figuratively or literally this would mean God has mothers, brothers and fathers.
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Somewhere in the bible Jesus says that anyone who dies for his sake is MY mother, brother, sister and father.(i'll get the verse later) Whether Jesus meant this figuratively or literally this would mean God has mothers, brothers and fathers.
You will have to find the scripture because I don't find any that have the wording that you are using....MY....
This is the closest scripture I could find with that context, and obviously, here, Jesus is not saying that anyone is his father mother brother etc.
Matthew 10:37-39 (NIV) "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
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Somewhere in the bible Jesus says that anyone who dies for his sake is MY mother, brother, sister and father.(i'll get the verse later) Whether Jesus meant this figuratively or literally this would mean God has mothers, brothers and fathers.
You will have to find the scripture because I don't find any that have the wording that you are using....MY....
This is the closest scripture I could find with that context, and obviously, here, Jesus is not saying that anyone is his father mother brother etc.
Matthew 10:37-39 (NIV) "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
I screwed that up a bit. I was on the right track though the verse is Matthew 12:46-50, in that passage Jesus says people who do the will of his father is the same as my mother, brother and sister.
"Restating my question"
Are we brothers or sons of God?
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Somewhere in the bible Jesus says that anyone who dies for his sake is MY mother, brother, sister and father.(i'll get the verse later) Whether Jesus meant this figuratively or literally this would mean God has mothers, brothers and fathers.
You will have to find the scripture because I don't find any that have the wording that you are using....MY....
This is the closest scripture I could find with that context, and obviously, here, Jesus is not saying that anyone is his father mother brother etc.
Matthew 10:37-39 (NIV) "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
I screwed that up a bit. I was on the right track though the verse is Matthew 12:46-50, in that passage Jesus says people who do the will of his father is the same as my mother, brother and sister.
"Restating my question"
Are we brothers or sons of God?
NASB : Matthew 12:46-50
46While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak
to Him. 47Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49And
stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50For whoever does the will
of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
I think the point here is that faith in Christ supersedes family ties. It's the same as the bible referring to the "bride" of Christ. Was Jesus married? No, the church is his bride...it's a metaphor. Jesus' point was, whoever does the will of my Father, they are my family.
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Somewhere in the bible Jesus says that anyone who dies for his sake is MY mother, brother, sister and father.(i'll get the verse later) Whether Jesus meant this figuratively or literally this would mean God has mothers, brothers and fathers.
You will have to find the scripture because I don't find any that have the wording that you are using....MY....
This is the closest scripture I could find with that context, and obviously, here, Jesus is not saying that anyone is his father mother brother etc.
Matthew 10:37-39 (NIV) "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
I screwed that up a bit. I was on the right track though the verse is Matthew 12:46-50, in that passage Jesus says people who do the will of his father is the same as my mother, brother and sister.
"Restating my question"
Are we brothers or sons of God?
NASB : Matthew 12:46-50
46While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak
to Him. 47Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49And
stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50For whoever does the will
of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
I think the point here is that faith in Christ supersedes family ties. It's the same as the bible referring to the "bride" of Christ. Was Jesus married? No, the church is his bride...it's a metaphor. Jesus' point was, whoever does the will of my Father, they are my family.
I see now and I fully understand. I still think it's a conflict for any part of the Godhead to have mothers or fathers over them even if it's figurative(Jesus is part of the Godhead).
My next question is can God be exalted or be a prophet if he is already the most high?(Psalms 83:18)
P.S. Jesus is the son of the most high and not the most high himself(Luke 1:32)
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I see now and I fully understand. I still think it's a conflict for any part of the Godhead to have mothers or fathers over them even if it's figurative(Jesus is part of the Godhead).
My next question is can God be exalted or be a prophet if he is already the most high?(Psalms 83:18)
P.S. Jesus is the son of the most high and not the most high himself(Luke 1:32)
Well it's not a conflict to use a metaphor to make a point.
The definition of exalt that applies to God is to glorify and praise and we exalt him because he IS the most high.
And unless you are Jehovah's witness, Jesus IS God so he IS the most high. Jesus is differentiated by being referred to as the SON because of his dual nature, he is God and Man at the same time which is why he is referred to as both the Son of Man and the Son of God through the NT. His human nature (Jesus) had a relationship with his Spirit nature (God). Refer to my link earlier in this thread, if you have not already, in where I am coming from with the Oneness interpretation of the Godhead.
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Theological differences aside I just want to know can you be exalted past the level of most high. Jesus shouldn't have been exalted if he was the most high but instead should have just returned to the glory he once had. I'm also familiar with the oneness teaching even through i'm Arian.
Let's say Jesus is the greatest carpenter who ever lived(which might be true). Can you be exalted any higher as a carpenter?
P.S. Solomon and angels are sons of God as well(Job 38:7)(1 chronicles 28:6)
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Theological differences aside I just want to know can you be exalted past the level of most high. Jesus shouldn't have been exalted if he was the most high but instead should have just returned to the glory he once had. I'm also familiar with the oneness teaching even through i'm Arian.
Let's say Jesus is the greatest carpenter who ever lived(which might be true). Can you be exalted any higher as a carpenter?
P.S. Solomon and angels are sons of God as well(Job 38:7)(1 chronicles 28:6)
I'll state again that the definition of exalt that applies here is to glorify and praise it does not mean to increase in status.
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Theological differences aside I just want to know can you be exalted past the level of most high. Jesus shouldn't have been exalted if he was the most high but instead should have just returned to the glory he once had. I'm also familiar with the oneness teaching even through i'm Arian.
Let's say Jesus is the greatest carpenter who ever lived(which might be true). Can you be exalted any higher as a carpenter?
P.S. Solomon and angels are sons of God as well(Job 38:7)(1 chronicles 28:6)
I'll state again that the definition of exalt that applies here is to glorify and praise it does not mean to increase in status.
Oh ok I see that makes much more sense if that's what the bible writers intended. I'll understand the context more and more as I read.
Next question is below.
Is it true that trinitarians and modalist view the "angel of the LORD" as Jesus or recognize the angel to be Jesus? Psalms 37:7 is one example.
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It would take me a long time to be able to answer where you could understand my ramblings. So, I am going to paste something from http://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html regarding who the angel/angels of the Lord is/are:
Question: "Who is the angel of the Lord?"
Answer: The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.
The appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament. It is possible that appearances of the angel of the Lord were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation. Jesus declared Himself to be existent “before Abraham” (John 8:58), so it is logical that He would be active and manifest in the world. Whatever the case, whether the angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ (Christophany) or an appearance of God the Father (theophany), it is highly likely that the phrase “the angel of the Lord” usually identifies a physical appearance of God.
Recommended Resource: Angels: Elect & Evil by C. Fred Dickason.
I hope this helps some.
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Good question teflon and good article Julie, I never even thought about that. I guess when reading scripture you just take some phrases for granted if you're not looking for it :)
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It would take me a long time to be able to answer where you could understand my ramblings. So, I am going to paste something from http://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html regarding who the angel/angels of the Lord is/are:
Question: "Who is the angel of the Lord?"
Answer: The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “the angel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.
The appearances of the angel of the Lord cease after the incarnation of Christ. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but “the angel of the Lord” is never mentioned in the New Testament. It is possible that appearances of the angel of the Lord were manifestations of Jesus before His incarnation. Jesus declared Himself to be existent “before Abraham” (John 8:58), so it is logical that He would be active and manifest in the world. Whatever the case, whether the angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ (Christophany) or an appearance of God the Father (theophany), it is highly likely that the phrase “the angel of the Lord” usually identifies a physical appearance of God.
Recommended Resource: Angels: Elect & Evil by C. Fred Dickason.
I hope this helps some.
For the record if I quote you then you helped :) I have mixed feelings about this site, it has decent answers but lies about the Jehovah's witnesses such as saying that "the ransom" is a theory??!!! Have they read Matthew 20:28?
It's true that the phrase "the angel of the LORD" is not mentioned in the New covenant but does the father or the son sending their angels make the angels not the angel of the lord? Since Jesus is now lord naturally any angel sent by Jesus might be an angel of the lord. Also got questions contradicts itself, got questions says there are references to "the angel of the LORD" in the New testament(I use covenant because some of the old testament still applies or is relevant) yet got questions says there are no mentioning of it in the New testament ????
Christophany is plausible because he was and still is a messenger, angels are messengers so all the scriptures used in this article is just showing God using the angels not God on earth in physical form if that's the case then we will die(Exodus 33:20). I see no contradictions between scripture that on the surface say people "seen" or "walked with God" and Exodus 33:20. The only way for these scriptures to fit together will be for the latter to be personification. Especially since he's invisible to human eyes. It's clear in scripture that angels took on a human form or at least a form recognizable to humans even though they are invisible. I have yet to see one for God though.
P.S. I believe Jesus is God in position and that he being fully spirit is in the same nature as God and yet not equal to God in being because the angels are also spirits just like God is a spirit(John 4:24) In short I believe that God is the most high of all spirit creatures and uncreated while the rest are created including Jesus.
I believe the answer to my last question is yes, Trinitarians and modalist believe that the angel of the LORD might have been a christophany. That's probably a theory all sides of Christianity cult or no cult agree on. Jehovah's witnesses who are arians believe this to.
My next question is below...
Does God have a god?
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Does God have a god?
If God had a god he wouldn't be God.
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Does God have a god?
If God had a god he wouldn't be God.
This is true. John 1:1-2 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."
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Does God have a god?
If God had a god he wouldn't be God.
Oh, Jesus is talking below and he is NOT a human now.
Revelation 3:12 Reads 12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’
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Does God have a god?
If God had a god he wouldn't be God.
Oh, Jesus is talking below and he is NOT a human now.
Revelation 3:12 Reads 12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’
That is a tricky scripture! As you know from the oneness or even trinitarian stand point, when Jesus walked the earth he referred to his Father in a relationship between his human and God nature. Here he is no longer human however he appeared to John as "one like a son of man"
Revelation 1:13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash round his chest.
So, although the scripture doesn't clarify why Jesus appeared in his human (yet glorified) form to John, I would assume it's because that's what John was familiar with and the person of Jesus had to submit to the will of the his Father and thus the confusing possessive noun. I believe he appeared as Jesus and thus spoke as Jesus. That's my take on it.
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Does God have a god?
If God had a god he wouldn't be God.
Oh, Jesus is talking below and he is NOT a human now.
Revelation 3:12 Reads 12 “‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine. 13 Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’
That is a tricky scripture! As you know from the oneness or even trinitarian stand point, when Jesus walked the earth he referred to his Father in a relationship between his human and God nature. Here he is no longer human however he appeared to John as "one like a son of man"
Revelation 1:13 and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man," dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash round his chest.
So, although the scripture doesn't clarify why Jesus appeared in his human (yet glorified) form to John, I would assume it's because that's what John was familiar with and the person of Jesus had to submit to the will of the his Father and thus the confusing possessive noun. I believe he appeared as Jesus and thus spoke as Jesus. That's my take on it.
It's true it's not said however it's clear spirit beings known as angels took on human forms to be recognized by men, such as the angels in post flood earth. Everyone knows that HISTORY. Of course appearing as humans didn't make them half human half God.
My next question is does God(here i'm referring to any member of the "Godhead") have partners?
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It's true it's not said however it's clear spirit beings known as angels took on human forms to be recognized by men, such as the angels in post flood earth. Everyone knows that HISTORY. Of course appearing as humans didn't make them half human half God.
My next question is does God(here i'm referring to any member of the "Godhead") have partners?
I'm not saying that Jesus was still half human at that time, I'm saying that because he appeared as a son of man that he spoke to John in the same manner he spoke of the Father when he was human. It's not clear WHY he would do so. But with all the other scriptures pertaining to Jesus being God, you can't throw those out for a couple of scriptures that seem confusing. Well I guess you can, because people do. But I'm no bible scholar and I can't fathom to understand the whole bible completely. However, it seems to me that Jesus appearing as he did to John it's not that far fetched for him to say what he did, the way he did.
I assume your next question is based on some scripture that seems to indicate that God does have partners so, what is it?
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It's true it's not said however it's clear spirit beings known as angels took on human forms to be recognized by men, such as the angels in post flood earth. Everyone knows that HISTORY. Of course appearing as humans didn't make them half human half God.
My next question is does God(here i'm referring to any member of the "Godhead") have partners?
I'm not saying that Jesus was still half human at that time, I'm saying that because he appeared as a son of man that he spoke to John in the same manner he spoke of the Father when he was human. It's not clear WHY he would do so. But with all the other scriptures pertaining to Jesus being God, you can't throw those out for a couple of scriptures that seem confusing. Well I guess you can, because people do. But I'm no bible scholar and I can't fathom to understand the whole bible completely. However, it seems to me that Jesus appearing as he did to John it's not that far fetched for him to say what he did, the way he did.
I assume your next question is based on some scripture that seems to indicate that God does have partners so, what is it?
I know all the Jesus being referred as God scriptures, as those scriptures just prove God exalted Jesus to a more superior position(philippians 2:9-11). He is the greater David, Solomon and Moses after all. Not to mention last Adam... The scripture is Hebrews 1:9
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The scripture is Hebrews 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The anointed One, the same as the Hebrew Messiah; and he is here said to be 'anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows.'
None was ever constituted prophet, priest, and king, but himself: some were kings only, prophets only, and priests only; others were kings and priests, or priests and prophets, or kings and prophets; but none had ever the three offices in his own person but Jesus Christ; and none but himself can be a King over the universe, a Prophet to all intelligent beings, and a Priest to the whole human race. Thus he is infinitely exalted beyond his fellows - all that had ever borne the regal, prophetic, or sacerdotal offices. http://bible.cc/hebrews/1-9.htm
As for this comment
I know all the Jesus being referred as God scriptures, as those scriptures just prove God exalted Jesus to a more superior position
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html
That's all I have to say on the subject.
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The scripture is Hebrews 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The anointed One, the same as the Hebrew Messiah; and he is here said to be 'anointed with the oil of gladness above his fellows.'
None was ever constituted prophet, priest, and king, but himself: some were kings only, prophets only, and priests only; others were kings and priests, or priests and prophets, or kings and prophets; but none had ever the three offices in his own person but Jesus Christ; and none but himself can be a King over the universe, a Prophet to all intelligent beings, and a Priest to the whole human race. Thus he is infinitely exalted beyond his fellows - all that had ever borne the regal, prophetic, or sacerdotal offices. http://bible.cc/hebrews/1-9.htm
As for this comment
I know all the Jesus being referred as God scriptures, as those scriptures just prove God exalted Jesus to a more superior position
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html
That's all I have to say on the subject.
Go back 2 verses the context is comparing Jesus to angels and not men or contrasting which ever one you choose either way it's not necessary for the most high to get compared or contrasted with angels.
Seems like this going into a theological conversation instead of just a trinity conversation heck i'm not even talking to a trinitarian anymore meh so be it.
Before I go about answering the link I want to give you the greater David, Moses and Solomon scriptures as I see that you think it might be just a cult thing that's not scriptural.
Greater then Moses(Deuteronomy 15-19)
Greater then David(Luke 1:32)
Greater then Solomon(Matthew 12:42)
Now on to your link with scriptures about Jesus divinity(which he has because God gave it to him) and i'll sort out the truth and falsehood of the links arguments below.
Although the title "Son of Man" may seem fairly innocuous, it is, in fact, a title of the Messiah, of whom the book of Daniel claims that all people will serve and that His kingdom would never end:
"I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Obviously, if the Son of Man were only human, He would not be able to establish an eternal kingdom. Likewise, He would not be able to convince all peoples to serve Him. Such abilities and honors are reserved for God alone.
TRUTH: Son of man is definitely a title of the messiah(we means the anointed one) and he isn't only human. Both are true and wholeheartedly agree the arian theology is Jesus is Michael the archangel but not an incarnate angel. He wasn't fully human and fully spirit or angel at the same time.
FALSEHOOD: Jesus does NOT convince all peoples to serve him. Judas, the pharisees, are just some type of people that didn't serve him. It's possible all in this scripture just doesn't mean all, just like Jesus having the name that's above every name doesn't mean his name is higher then his father's. Instead it means majority. Jesus dominion and kingdom is eternal but it is GIVEN TO HIM by the father as this verse shows and He gives it back after the 1,000 year reign(1 Corinthians 15:28), thus it never ends. Not to mention he has co-rulers following this logic your forced to conclude born again/saints are also the almighty God as they also rule as long as Christ rules. (Revelation 20:6)
The Bible makes the direct claim that Jesus is the Son of God.1 Many others, including the disciples,2 a Roman Centurion,3 angels,4 demons5, John the Baptist,6 Martha,7 Saul (Paul),8 and the Ethiopian Eunich9 make the same claim. Others said that Jesus Himself made the claim to be the Son of God.10 The gospels also indicate that Jesus Himself made the statement or acknowledged that He was the Son of God many times.11
Virtually all cults will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, as if the title confers no special meaning or only second class status. This assumption is unrealistic, since no other prophet ever called himself the Son of God. The Jewish leaders of the time knew exactly what this title implied - that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself:
For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18)
Claiming to be the Son of God also conferred the title of Messiah or the anointed One. Psalm 2 talks about the Messiah (mashiach), whom it says is God's Son.12 This great messianic Psalm warns the reader to do homage to the Son and take refuge in Him,13 since He will rule the nations and judge the earth.14
TRUTH: Claiming to be the Son of God conferred the title of Messiah or the anionted One. No arguments there your definitely unchristian if you don't acknowledge that.
FALSEHOOD The Jews knew Jesus saying he was the son of God was claiming equality with God. There's some serious problems with this argument.
1. One no one has ever used this phrase before Jesus so to say Jews knew that is a bit of a stretch. 2. Pharisees where false Jews would you really trust Satan's children on an issue like this? 3. You shouldn't be saying the Lord's prayer if you believe what the Pharisees thought about Jesus. Also Jesus was "the son of God" long before he came to Earth(John 8:38) He also goes on to stay he was sent by the father(the father made him messenger).
The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah - the anointed One of God. Jesus Himself made the claim or acknowledged that He was the Messiah.15 The title is especially significant with regard to the question at hand - is Jesus God? The Old Testament tells us that the Messiah is God and the eternal Father:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)
Other prophecies of the Old Testament tell us that the Messiah would be God:
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:5-6)
The title, "The LORD Our Righteousness" indicates that the Messiah is God. The Hebrew word translated "LORD" is yhvh (Yahweh), which is the personal name of God.
TRUTH: The scripture is indeed saying what it says.
FALSEHOOD: The most high is El shaddai not just El Gibbor and nowhere in the bible is the father or even the holy spirit presented as a PRINCE More importantly Gabriel's name translates to mighty God so following this logic the bible claims an angel as "mighty God" this is in perfect harmony with (Psalms 103:20) which calls the angels mighty. Jesus replaces Adam so that's how he is "the eternal father" he's also the greater Solomon so that's why he's the "wonderful counselor". I believe Jehovah will become king again after Jesus hands over the kingdom to his father and Jesus and his co-rulers will all be princes and priests for all eternity.
The Lord our righteousness argument is fallacious. Many people had names with God's name or even part of it. They simply were being used by God so God's name was in them such as Nehemiah which means God comforts the link here provides a ton of other names that have at least a part of God's name in their name even another person named Jesus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlN0omtviC8
As I already stated Jesus rules as king and then gives it back to his father(1 Corinthians 15:27-28)
Jesus claimed to have many of the attributes that God alone possess. Jesus claimed to have sent the prophets:
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (Matthew 23:34)
However, the Old Testament indicates that God sent the prophets.16 Therefore, Jesus was claiming the authority that was previously reserved only for God.
Jesus claimed that His origins are from heaven, whereas men are from the world:
"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. (John 3:13)
And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23)
Not only did Jesus claim to come from heaven, but He said that it was "my kingdom" Isn't heaven God's kingdom?
that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30)
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (John 18:36)
Jesus claimed to have existed before He was born in Bethlehem:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. (John 8:58-59)
The claim included the term "I am" - a reference God made of Himself when talking to Moses.17 The Jews immediately recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God and attempted to stone Him.
Jesus also claimed to have existed "before the world began":
"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5)
This statement is an obvious claim to deity. Not only did Jesus claim to exist before the creation of the universe, but He claimed to share the glory of God! Jesus also claimed that He had "all authority... in heaven and on earth" and that everything of God was His.18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)
Jesus claimed to be the supreme judge who will exercise all judgment.19 However, there are at least 50 verses in the Bible that claim that Jehovah God will judge the earth (see Who Will Judge Mankind?). Jesus claimed to be the one to separate the "sheep from the goats".20 However, the book of Ezekiel says that Jehovah God will do this.21 Jesus claimed to be the resurrection and the life.22 He said that He would personally raise everyone from the dead.23 These are all attributes of God.
Jesus claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath,24 although the Bible indicates that God held such title.25
Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins.26 Even the Jews recognized that this was a function of God alone.27
Jesus claimed that He would return in the clouds in glory.28 Isaiah makes the same claim for Jehovah God.29 Obviously, Jesus was making a claim to deity.
Jesus claimed to be the light of the world who provides salvation.30 In the Psalms, David tells us that Jehovah God is our light and salvation.31 Jesus also claimed to be the way to life32 - an assertion that is made for God.33 Jesus said that He was the one who searched the hearts and minds,34 gives eternal life,35 and rewards those who follow Him.36 All of these characteristics are found only in God.37, 38, 39
Jesus said He was the good shepherd,40 who searches for His sheep.41 These are claims made of God in the Old Testament.42, 43 Jesus claimed to be the fountain of living water.44 This is a clear reference to what God said of Himself as recorded by the prophet Jeremiah.45 Jesus said He would give rest to those who found Him.46 The same claim is made of God in the book of Exodus.47
Jesus claimed to send the Holy Spirit (Helper).48 The same claim is made for God.49 Jesus said that He raised Himself from the dead,50 even though the Bible says that God did it.51 Among Jesus' parting words, He told His disciples to baptize new followers in "the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)
It should be noted that the other two names (Father and Holy Spirit) are names for God. In fact, the text says specifically that they should be baptized in the name (singular), not names, of the three persons mentioned. In order to be one name, they must all represent God. Jesus claimed that His disciples would be unable to do anything of significance without His power. Such a statement is a clear claim of divine power.
"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)
TRUTH: Everything presented above is true as this proves that all authority has been GIVEN to him in heaven and earth.
FALSEHOOD: I'll number the points in the order they were said.
1. Jesus claimed to have many of the attributes that God alone possess. Jesus claimed to have sent the prophets:
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (Matthew 23:34)
However, the Old Testament indicates that God sent the prophets.16 Therefore, Jesus was claiming the authority that was previously reserved only for God.
Jesus is the head of the Christian congregation/church so naturally he can send prophets. Jesus was also sinless and Adam and Eve was also sinless(for a time) of course that didn't make them the almighty God.
2. Jesus claimed that His origins are from heaven, whereas men are from the world:
"And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. (John 3:13)
And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23)
Following this logic the angels were not made in heaven because they never claimed there from heaven!!!!! Moreover Jesus having a prehuman existence doesn't make Jesus the almighty God anymore then the angels.
3. Not only did Jesus claim to come from heaven, but He said that it was "my kingdom" Isn't heaven God's kingdom?
that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30)
Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (John 18:36)
Who gave him the "throne of David again"? And does he hand it back? Using this logic I can claim that my mom gave me life, and since she gave me life she can make the faulty argument of claiming she's God because only God can give life. This is a serious problem IF SHE IGNORES THE SOURCE
To save room this link goes to another thread where I made one post with most if not all Trinity texts, it has Modalist arguments to. http://fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=15895.msg193131#msg193131 (http://fusioncash.net/forum.php?topic=15895.msg193131#msg193131)
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Ok, I'm going to be honest here and say that, that was too much information for my brain at the moment. Maybe I can come back tomorrow when my head isn't pounding and read it again. Also, I am weary of religious circular arguments.
But I will say this. It boggles my mind that if a JW is told they are not Christian they get offended. Yet they are constantly trying to convert other Christians to their own way of believing. It doesn't make any sense. I am not saying that you are doing this, you are simply posting in a debate forum I get that. But these very sweet ladies come to my door every month at very inconvenient times despite the fact that I have told them I have a church, I am deeply involved in the ministry of my church body, and I gave them the name and location of my church.
Why do they insist on continuing to come to my door with their Watchtower material and expect me to read all of it when they themselves will not except material from me because it's considered apostasy and they fear dis-fellowship! Why are other "Christians" trying to convert me out of my Christianity??
If you don't want to believe that Jesus is God that's fine with me. I can present the gospel to how I understand and you can take it or leave it. When the bible says to "tell the good news" it doesn't mean to harass and badger people to your own way of thinking (Again I'm not saying you are doing this) It means to be a living example of God's saving grace and be vessel of his love to his creation.
So I can read your material and respond as I have been doing, but in the end....are you going to change your ideas of who Jesus is? Not likely, and neither will I because there is a rebuttal to both sides of this issue for every example you can bring up and the debate will never end, nobody wins.
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Ok, I'm going to be honest here and say that, that was too much information for my brain at the moment. Maybe I can come back tomorrow when my head isn't pounding and read it again. Also, I am weary of religious circular arguments.
But I will say this. It boggles my mind that if a JW is told they are not Christian they get offended. Yet they are constantly trying to convert other Christians to their own way of believing. It doesn't make any sense. I am not saying that you are doing this, you are simply posting in a debate forum I get that. But these very sweet ladies come to my door every month at very inconvenient times despite the fact that I have told them I have a church, I am deeply involved in the ministry of my church body, and I gave them the name and location of my church.
Why do they insist on continuing to come to my door with their Watchtower material and expect me to read all of it when they themselves will not except material from me because it's considered apostasy and they fear dis-fellowship! Why are other "Christians" trying to convert me out of my Christianity??
If you don't want to believe that Jesus is God that's fine with me. I can present the gospel to how I understand and you can take it or leave it. When the bible says to "tell the good news" it doesn't mean to harass and badger people to your own way of thinking (Again I'm not saying you are doing this) It means to be a living example of God's saving grace and be vessel of his love to his creation.
So I can read your material and respond as I have been doing, but in the end....are you going to change your ideas of who Jesus is? Not likely, and neither will I because there is a rebuttal to both sides of this issue for every example you can bring up and the debate will never end, nobody wins.
I know this and yes it's a fault in the JW preaching work, the line between pestering someone and preaching to someone is not clear, they might leave for Good if you say(DON'T COME BACK), that's what a Jewish lady told me and I never went back there. I'm willing to change my ideas of Jesus if there is hard proof of scripture about it and doesn't contradict the rest of scripture. I believe there's an element of truth in all the doctrines but there's also an element of contradiction to. If you can't respond to all my points in one post then respond to some of them in one post. Also I've received a KJ, and NIV bible from non JW's. I'm not sure if accepting literature is grounds for DF'ing but I know it's highly discouraged.
P.S. Receiving different bible translations is the only religious non JW literature that's not looked down upon.
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I know this and yes it's a fault in the JW preaching work, the line between pestering someone and preaching to someone is not clear, they might leave for Good if you say(DON'T COME BACK), that's what a Jewish lady told me and I never went back there. I'm willing to change my ideas of Jesus if there is hard proof of scripture about it and doesn't contradict the rest of scripture. I believe there's an element of truth in all the doctrines but there's also an element of contradiction to. If you can't respond to all my points then some of them in one post not all. Also I've received a KJ, and NIV bible from non JW's. I'm sure if accepting literature is grounds for DF'ing but I know it's highly discouraged.
I don't want to tell them (DON'T COME BACK) I'm just not that kind of person.
Here's the thing, I don't think it's important that you do change your ideas. If you believe that Jesus' perfect sacrifice saves you from the burden of sin, if you live your life being a living testimony of God's saving grace and life transforming spirit, then why does doctrine matter?
I believe that JW's have misinterpreted scripture, you believe other denominations have done the same. But rather than quibble about different interpretations can we agree on some foundational things? Jesus saves! Jesus' sacrifice and the acceptance of that passionate act changes peoples lives?
The main problem I have with JW is that it seems that your faith is based on works. If you don't knock on enough people's doors and do this and do that then metaphorically speaking "you have points deducted". That is biblically incorrect. We are justified by faith not works. Works follow those who have faith because our hearts are tuned to what God wants and he wants us to help the poor, the unfortunate, the broken, the hurting, the starving, the homeless. We have a burden for people to know that here is hope. The bible says you will know them by their fruit; but the fruit doesn't save you.
You could be another Billy Graham like person and bring in millions of people who get saved. That's GREAT, but it doesn't get weighed on a scale of good vs bad works. It doesn't tally up points for every soul you witness to, what matters is that you have faith and because you have faith you are justified. Because you have faith you can stand before God sinless.
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I know this and yes it's a fault in the JW preaching work, the line between pestering someone and preaching to someone is not clear, they might leave for Good if you say(DON'T COME BACK), that's what a Jewish lady told me and I never went back there. I'm willing to change my ideas of Jesus if there is hard proof of scripture about it and doesn't contradict the rest of scripture. I believe there's an element of truth in all the doctrines but there's also an element of contradiction to. If you can't respond to all my points then some of them in one post not all. Also I've received a KJ, and NIV bible from non JW's. I'm sure if accepting literature is grounds for DF'ing but I know it's highly discouraged.
I don't want to tell them (DON'T COME BACK) I'm just not that kind of person.
Here's the thing, I don't think it's important that you do change your ideas. If you believe that Jesus' perfect sacrifice saves you from the burden of sin, if you live your life being a living testimony of God's saving grace and life transforming spirit, then why does doctrine matter?
I believe that JW's have misinterpreted scripture, you believe other denominations have done the same. But rather than quibble about different interpretations can we agree on some foundational things? Jesus saves! Jesus' sacrifice and the acceptance of that passionate act changes peoples lives?
The main problem I have with JW is that it seems that your faith is based on works. If you don't knock on enough people's doors and do this and do that then metaphorically speaking "you have points deducted". That is biblically incorrect. We are justified by faith not works. Works follow those who have faith because our hearts are tuned to what God wants and he wants us to help the poor, the unfortunate, the broken, the hurting, the starving, the homeless. We have a burden for people to know that here is hope. The bible says you will know them by their fruit; but the fruit doesn't save you.
You could be another Billy Graham like person and bring in millions of people who get saved. That's GREAT, but it doesn't get weighed on a scale of good vs bad works. It doesn't tally up points for every soul you witness to, what matters is that you have faith and because you have faith you are justified. Because you have faith you can stand before God sinless.
Let's say people believe Jesus saves and Died for our sins, yet says Jesus was an Earthly ruler who killed millions of people and promoted human trafficking and aided sex rites. Now is their doctrine correct even though they believe in the Jesus?
The faith is based on works is a common accusation towards JW's, this is because people think it's burdensome or forced in some way. The truth is it's 100% voluntary to do this, it's because of the faith that the JW's preach not to do works to get faith. You'll have a very hard time ignoring the works that people did back then because of their faith(Hebrews 11:4–12:1). Just like actions speak louder then words faith without works is dead(James 2:14-26). I agree with there is not yard stick to Good or bad works.
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Let's say people believe Jesus saves and Died for our sins, yet says Jesus was an Earthly ruler who killed millions of people and promoted human trafficking and aided sex rites. Now is their doctrine correct even though they believe in the Jesus?
No their doctrine is not correct, but are the fruits of that belief contradictory to what a Christians life is supposed to look like? If I believed such a doctrine I would more than likely feel that human trafficking and killing is perfectly acceptable. Since I submitted my life to a person who did such things. Living a life of human trafficking and killing would contradict a Christian's life as laid out in scripture, that belief would be dangerous AND if a person believed this, it would not be based in the foundation of the bible. Thereby being anti Christian and hence not a doctrine of the Christian faith.
The faith is based on works is a common accusation towards JW's, this is because people think it's burdensome or forced in some way.
Well I have never been a JW but I do know some ex JW's and they are the ones that explained this particular aspect of JW practice. So maybe it differs depending on the particular group a person is a member of. Just like some pentecostal church's adhere to strict dress codes based on their belief, others are more liberal in that manner but still call themselves by the same name.
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Let's say people believe Jesus saves and Died for our sins, yet says Jesus was an Earthly ruler who killed millions of people and promoted human trafficking and aided sex rites. Now is their doctrine correct even though they believe in the Jesus?
No their doctrine is not correct, but are the fruits of that belief contradictory to what a Christians life is supposed to look like? If I believed such a doctrine I would more than likely feel that human trafficking and killing is perfectly acceptable. Since I submitted my life to a person who did such things. Living a life of human trafficking and killing would contradict a Christian's life as laid out in scripture, that belief would be dangerous AND if a person believed this, it would not be based in the foundation of the bible. Thereby being anti Christian and hence not a doctrine of the Christian faith.
The faith is based on works is a common accusation towards JW's, this is because people think it's burdensome or forced in some way.
Well I have never been a JW but I do know some ex JW's and they are the ones that explained this particular aspect of JW practice. So maybe it differs depending on the particular group a person is a member of. Just like some pentecostal church's adhere to strict dress codes based on their belief, others are more liberal in that manner but still call themselves by the same name.
Your first comment alone points out the seriousness of correct doctrine, at the same time being dogmatic is unfruitful.
Question for your second comment what is the same name they call themselves?
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Your first comment alone points out the seriousness of correct doctrine, at the same time being dogmatic is unfruitful.
That belief makes it an unchristian doctrine which doesn't apply to what I said in my earlier post about doctrine not mattering. I'm not going to argue with a baptist over the trinity because it doesn't matter to salvation what a person believes in that regard. A person believing something that causes them to kill people and traffic human beings is not based on any scripture. Tell me, is what I believe (that Jesus is God) causing me to live my life in such a way that is contrary to the life of a person of Christian faith? Absolutely not. Is your belief (that Jesus isn't God) causing you to live your life in such a way that is contrary to the life of a person of Christian faith?
I rest my case.
Question for your second comment what is the same name they call themselves?
Um Pentecostal
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Your first comment alone points out the seriousness of correct doctrine, at the same time being dogmatic is unfruitful.
That belief makes it an unchristian doctrine which doesn't apply to what I said in my earlier post about doctrine not mattering. I'm not going to argue with a baptist over the trinity because it doesn't matter to salvation what a person believes in that regard. A person believing something that causes them to kill people and traffic human beings is not based on any scripture. Tell me, is what I believe (that Jesus is God) causing me to live my life in such a way that is contrary to the life of a person of Christian faith? Absolutely not. Is your belief (that Jesus isn't God) causing you to live your life in such a way that is contrary to the life of a person of Christian faith?
I rest my case.
Question for your second comment what is the same name they call themselves?
Um Pentecostal
For your first comment: Depending on how zealous a person is they might conclude living a Christian life is not enough and conclude everything must be right not one detail should be false. I'm zealous enough to challenge doctrine but i'm not going to say your not saved because you don't belief X doctrine. I think that's when the person becomes over zealous.
For your second comment: I should have known that, just out of curiousity what other differences are their between the pentecostals.
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For your first comment: Depending on how zealous a person is they might conclude living a Christian life is not enough and conclude everything must be right not one detail should be false. I'm zealous enough to challenge doctrine but i'm not going to say your not saved because you don't belief X doctrine. I think that's when the person becomes over zealous.
That was exactly my point to begin with. Although I don't necessarily have a problem with being zealous, Paul actually says to be zealous. But case in point, the Westboro Baptist Church. Almost unanimously the Christian community and the secular community puts this so called church in a whole other catagory. They are actually considered a cult of Christianity. They preach a message contrary to the gospel and fanatically spread their message of hate for no other reason than to harass people. They themselves claim they do not wish to convert people. They are just called by their faith to let everyone know that God hates them and they are going to hell.
I also read recently that there are Christian atheists. The TERM is itself contradictory, what is their doctrine? Jesus taught good moral lessons and the bible is a story book. It makes no sense. They follow none of the foundations of Christian faith but still hold the name. Those are the types of groups that I would not say, doctrine doesn't matter. But like I said earlier.....foundational beliefs:
Christ was the son of God
He died on the cross for our sin
Believe on him, call on him and you shall be saved
If we can agree on that, then although the details may differ between the lines, that foundation is the whole message of the gospel.
For your second comment: I should have known that, just out of curiousity what other differences are their between the pentecostals.
Well, I don't know really. I have mostly attended non denominational churches that stemmed from pentecostal or apostalic roots. My mom grew up not being allowed to cut her hair, go swimming in public, go to the movies, wear pants or make up, have her ears pierced and things and like that. My church that I attend now used to be an apostalic church, they decided to move away from the strict rules that applied to that denomination and changed their name and became non denominational however, the core group of the church that still attends (the pastor and his family included) all still follow some of the apostalic tradition. The women wear their hair up, they don't wear pants or make up, the men don't grow their hair long or grow facial hair, and neither sex wears jewelry. It's something that is a personal conviction to them I guess it's just not something preached behind the pulpit. Although they themselves follow that type of lifestyle they don't believe a person goes to hell if they don't do the same.
I wear make up, pants, jewelry, have tattoos, piercings and cut my hair. Yet they love me and I hold positions within the church.
And I think there may be some difference in eschatological beliefs between the pentacostal denominations but that is probably the case in all the different sects of Christianity. I have attended the same type of church's and found all three different tribulation beliefs (pre mid and post) and the church I attend now, the core group (the people from the apostalic days of the church that still attend) believe there is no rapture at all.
There are so many different ideas out there it's impossible to know all the differences between them.
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For your first comment: Depending on how zealous a person is they might conclude living a Christian life is not enough and conclude everything must be right not one detail should be false. I'm zealous enough to challenge doctrine but i'm not going to say your not saved because you don't belief X doctrine. I think that's when the person becomes over zealous.
That was exactly my point to begin with. Although I don't necessarily have a problem with being zealous, Paul actually says to be zealous. But case in point, the Westboro Baptist Church. Almost unanimously the Christian community and the secular community puts this so called church in a whole other catagory. They are actually considered a cult of Christianity. They preach a message contrary to the gospel and fanatically spread their message of hate for no other reason than to harass people. They themselves claim they do not wish to convert people. They are just called by their faith to let everyone know that God hates them and they are going to hell.
I also read recently that there are Christian atheists. The TERM is itself contradictory, what is their doctrine? Jesus taught good moral lessons and the bible is a story book. It makes no sense. They follow none of the foundations of Christian faith but still hold the name. Those are the types of groups that I would not say, doctrine doesn't matter. But like I said earlier.....foundational beliefs:
Christ was the son of God
He died on the cross for our sin
Believe on him, call on him and you shall be saved
If we can agree on that, then although the details may differ between the lines, that foundation is the whole message of the gospel.
For your second comment: I should have known that, just out of curiousity what other differences are their between the pentecostals.
Well, I don't know really. I have mostly attended non denominational churches that stemmed from pentecostal or apostalic roots. My mom grew up not being allowed to cut her hair, go swimming in public, go to the movies, wear pants or make up, have her ears pierced and things and like that. My church that I attend now used to be an apostalic church, they decided to move away from the strict rules that applied to that denomination and changed their name and became non denominational however, the core group of the church that still attends (the pastor and his family included) all still follow some of the apostalic tradition. The women wear their hair up, they don't wear pants or make up, the men don't grow their hair long or grow facial hair, and neither sex wears jewelry. It's something that is a personal conviction to them I guess it's just not something preached behind the pulpit. Although they themselves follow that type of lifestyle they don't believe a person goes to hell if they don't do the same.
I wear make up, pants, jewelry, have tattoos, piercings and cut my hair. Yet they love me and I hold positions within the church.
And I think there may be some difference in eschatological beliefs between the pentacostal denominations but that is probably the case in all the different sects of Christianity. I have attended the same type of church's and found all three different tribulation beliefs (pre mid and post) and the church I attend now, the core group (the people from the apostalic days of the church that still attend) believe there is no rapture at all.
There are so many different ideas out there it's impossible to know all the differences between them.
There's no differences as far as standards and doctrine for JW's around the world. But I noticed that there are differences behind church groups. The JW's also don't wear facial hair, tattoos and piercings i'm not sure and the men can't grow their hair long that's where are similarities end. Oh well and that Jesus died for our sins(the instrument of death is different however), he's the son of God and you ask for the father in his name. Differences are that JW's can go to movies and swim but it's best to go in a group and make sure the movie doesn't have too much violence or cursing etc. Woman can wear makeup and wear pants and jewelry.
P.S. As far as westboro church goes they are destroying themselves by taking the judgment out of God's hands, we'll get judged in the same matter we judge others!!!!!!!!!!!
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P.S. As far as westboro church goes they are destroying themselves by taking the judgment out of God's hands, we'll get judged in the same matter we judge others!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with that 100%. Although my heart genuinely hurts for them because they live such a volatile belief. To believe that the god you serve has such pure hatred in him for the entire world :angry7: ...and to believe that's it's your mission to spread the message of his hate? :dontknow: I don't know, it seems like a very oppressive life to live. If only they understood how much God loves ALL the world, it's more liberating than anything, I think, to know how much God loves us.
But their leader is a man full of hatred and so his "god" reflects what he wants him to be. A god sent to judge everyone who has ever done him wrong, and everyone he disagrees with. Good thing Fred Phelps god isn't real.