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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: narv on August 23, 2012, 04:45:09 pm
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NOTE: No fusioncash user should feel obligated to participate in (or continue in) this discussion. I want to point a few things out, and if someone listens, that's great, but if not, I'm not going to force them to.
That said, I have a feeling that falcon9 will be very interested in this thread. :D ;)
Now, before we just come out and say any particular worldview is ludicrous, let me say that EVERY worldview is based on assumptions, and these assumptions determine the rest of the worldview via (usually) logical processes.
So, my worldview is based on assumptions including, but not limited to, the following:
- God is Omniscient and Omnipotent
- The Word of God (the Bible) is infallible and inerrant (aside from human error such as typos or translation errors).
- Our physical senses give us a reasonable guess as to the state and attributes of God's Creation (in other words, we can use science because all of what we perceive is not illusionary).
I could try to put together a list of assumptions for Atheism, but I would rather have y'all do that, and I might compare to what my guess would have been.
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NOTE: No fusioncash user should feel obligated to participate in (or continue in) this discussion. I want to point a few things out, and if someone listens, that's great, but if not, I'm not going to force them to.
The disclaimer is a non sequitur; participation in any forum/thread remains optional.
That said, I have a feeling that falcon9 will be very interested in this thread. :D ;)
As it happens, any a priori assumption can be contended.
Now, before we just come out and say any particular worldview is ludicrous, let me say that EVERY worldview is based on assumptions, and these assumptions determine the rest of the worldview via (usually) logical processes.
There is extant evidence that a significant number of "wordview assumptions" are not based upon logical reasoning and instead, stem from more emotional/non-rational premises. Especially assumptions made on the 'basis' of "faith", (which remains a belief sans evidence).
So, my worldview is based on assumptions including, but not limited to, the following:
- God is Omniscient and Omnipotent
No substantive and valid evidence supports such an assumptive claim. Instead, it relies upon faith without evidence.
- The Word of God (the Bible) is infallible and inerrant (aside from human error such as typos or translation errors).
This assumptive claim is manifestly false as numerous contradictions, (not based upon translation/typo/specious "interpretations"), can be found not only in the variations extant but, in Dead Sea Scrolls omissions, (c.f., the council of nicea).
- Our physical senses give us a reasonable guess as to the state and attributes of God's Creation (in other words, we can use science because all of what we perceive is not illusionary).
No, there is no cause/effect or chain of reasoning which accurately "attributes" anything to the "g-d" assumption, (which consists of unsupported attributions based upon religious belief, rather than substantial evidence).
I could try to put together a list of assumptions for Atheism, but I would rather have y'all do that, and I might compare to what my guess would have been.
My 'assumptive' "guess" is that your "guess" consists of unsupported assumptions, (opinion sans evidentiary basis). Should you actually produce an evidentiary basis, I'll retract the prediction, (which was a logical extrapolation based upon the unsupported assumptions contained in your post).
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Hi Narv
Jesus didnt say to get into a debate with non-believers.He simply said take nothing from them and shake the dust offa your feet and move on to the next person that might wanna hear the truth about the kingdom of God.
There is a difference in discussing the bible with interested people and debating it with non-believers.Remember you preach the good word to help others NOT win a debate or reward for yourself.And you also please Jehovah too.Remember theres more happiness in giving then receiving Jesus said.
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I could try to put together a list of assumptions for Atheism, but I would rather have y'all do that, and I might compare to what my guess would have been.
I'd personally like to see you put a list of assumptions together for atheism. It's important to note that the vast majority of atheists are agnostic atheists. This means that we know there isn't a logical argument for the existence of any defined deities and therefore worshipping something without evidence of it's existence is pointless. We are not saying that there are no gods/metaphysical beings/ super-powered aliens/ etc. since that would be arrogant behavior which would make us no better than the believers who claim to know something they have never been able to demonstrate (you cannot disprove a myth).
Since believers do not have an ounce of proof for their own personal deities, the believer's arguments are moot and cannot break the weak barrier of elementary skepticism. That's the only 'assumption' I can think of.
There is a difference in discussing the bible with interested people and debating it with non-believers.Remember you preach the good word to help others NOT win a debate or reward for yourself.And you also please Jehovah too.Remember theres more happiness in giving then receiving Jesus said.
Putting myself in xtian shoes, I imagine it would be important to debate people with opposing views since the general rules of xtianity state that those who do not submit their will to your god will be punished. However since you seem to be a JW, I know that this sect branches off from common xtian ideas into something different and rearranges many story elements in the bible.
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This is the "DEBATE & discussion" subforum. There a difference between religious proselytizing, ("preaching" at people), and discussion - let alone debate, including challenges to religious assumptions and blind faith. If you're here to proselytize and not debate/discuss, you're in teh wrong place, fundie.
Jesus didnt say to get into a debate with non-believers.He simply said take nothing from them and shake the dust offa your feet and move on to the next person that might wanna hear the truth about the kingdom of God.
There is a difference in discussing the bible with interested people and debating it with non-believers.Remember you preach the good word to help others NOT win a debate or reward for yourself.And you also please Jehovah too.
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Putting myself in xtian shoes, I imagine it would be important to debate people with opposing views since the general rules of xtianity state that those who do not submit their will to your god will be punished. However since you seem to be a JW, I know that this sect branches off from common xtian ideas into something different and rearranges many story elements in the bible.
JW branch off from common xtian ideas?Would u mind explaining which ones?They adhere to the bible on all their teachings.Maybe its Christendom that branches off from the bible.And if Jehovah is the rightfull ruler i would think eventaully he wouldnt permit a chaotic universe such is now.....but thats why hes allowed it to prove without his rulership it is chaotic.
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JW branch off from common xtian ideas?Would u mind explaining which ones?
"Jehovah's Witnesses is a millenialist restorationist Christian denomination with nontrinitarian beliefs distinct from mainstream Christianity. The group emerged from the Bible Student movement—founded in the late 1870s by Charles Taze Russell with the formation of Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society—with significant organizational and doctrinal changes under the leadership of Joseph Franklin Rutherford."
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah_witness excerpt
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You didnt give me an example so ill have to give u 1.Im NOT interested in what mankind says about JWs.Jesus said to his true followers the world will hate you cos of me.
Heres an example of following the bible principals and Chrisendom not.
Jesus died on the Jewish calendar Nisan 14.That day is different every year with our present day calendar.He told his disciples at the supper to keep memorializing this day cos of the significance his death will have on mankind.Christendom doesnt memorialize that.Instead they color easter eggs and buy easter outfits and talk about the easter bunny.
Hope that helps.
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Im NOT interested in what mankind says about JWs.
In some kind of synchronistic parallel, mankind doesn't appear interested in what some self-deluded jw says about those who aren't mind-blinded.
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You are correct.Jesus said the road was narrow to life and broad and spacious was the road off to destruction which many will follow.
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You are correct.Jesus said the road was narrow ...
Only in the 'myopic view' of narrow-minded blind-faithers.
"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions."
-- Frater Ravus
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Heaven and earth will pass away....my words will never
Jesus Christ
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Hearsay, (especially that which contains irrational content), is neither debating or discussing, fundie. Self-referential/circular 'biblical' quotes are rejected as non-evidentiary hearsay. You're just proselytizing your religious cult. I'm just pointing that out.
Heaven and earth will pass away....my words will never
Jesus Christ
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JW branch off from common xtian ideas?Would u mind explaining which ones?
Well for basics it's the concepts of hell and eternal damnation. Then there's holidays. Though christians outright stole many of the present-day mainstream holidays, JW's practice abstaining from traditional celebrations that have been celebrated for centuries. I could go on. If you want to get technical and see a list of mistranslations in the NWT, here's a few-
http://4jehovah.org/jehovahs-witness-nwt-errors.php
.Im NOT interested in what mankind says about JWs
You must understand that if you truly believe that your beliefs are infallible without demonstrating how they are infallible, you are the very definition of deluded. This is not an insult. This is informing. This type of mindset is what has plagued mankind for ages. Some of the worst atrocities in history were caused by people who followed the same philosophy. I strongly encourage you to think outside of the circular logic (the bible is correct because the bible says so) that seems to plague xtianity and it's various sects.
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Falcon2...i was brought up a catholic.Even at a young age i had a hard time believing a loving God could punish people forever in hell.When we examine the bible NOT true.God told Adam at death he would go back to dust.Scriptures back it up...death=non-existence.The trinity....the bible doesnt support that either.Jesus said the father is greater then i.So how are they supposed to be the same then?Xmas.Jesus NEVER said to celebrate his birthday only remember his death.12/25 a pagan celebration.
The truth will set you free from all this BS.Obviously many dont wanna be set free but use the BS to gain and prey on the vulnerability of many.
Now as i use the bible to back up what i say i realize many will only go back to sq 1 and and dis-credit it.So why bother even commenting to me?You cant back up its not truth either.You quote saying from imperfect men etc.Why dont you quote something Mahat Ghandi said about Jesus sermon on the mount?And Ghandi was an atheist.
So i take it that you and a host of others that side with you back up what bible says.There is no Jehovah and let us eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.Where as the bible holds out a hope for mankind for the enemy death.
Do you seriously think Jehovahs people are in over 250 lands preaching Gods kingdom in vain?
Many and most are free to reject it.God didnt create man as an automated machine otherwise love wouldnt exist.And BTW you might wanna look up love in Corinthians and see its real meaning and also look up faith in the bible as well.Its there too.
Thank you for giving me the chance to defend Jehovah as universal sovereign and rightful ruler of universe.
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Falcon2...i was brought up a catholic.Even at a young age i had a hard time believing a loving God could punish people forever in hell.When we examine the bible NOT true.God told Adam at death he would go back to dust.Scriptures back it up...death=non-existence.The trinity....the bible doesnt support that either.Jesus said the father is greater then i.So how are they supposed to be the same then?Xmas.Jesus NEVER said to celebrate his birthday only remember his death.12/25 a pagan celebration.
These sects existed well before yours did. The false prophets who created your sect did rearrange a lot in the bible to make it state things completely different than what was originally stated. You have posted no proof to counter-argue this. Even if you attempted to, I would not be surprised if you did the "JW's NWT is correct because JW's say so!" routine. It's circular logic and only hurts your case.
So Jesus wants people to remember his death rather than celebrate his life? What a downer. Many holiday origins are pagan, but some are not. I find it hypocritical when JW's militantly preach against pagan practices yet still participate in using months to measure time. Many of the month names are pagan in origin, so unless JW's preach different names for months, your illogical beliefs display an odd form of hypocrisy as well.
Obviously many dont wanna be set free but use the BS to gain and prey on the vulnerability of many.
Are you referring to JW's going door to door?
You cant back up its not truth either.You quote saying from imperfect men etc.
Your book was written by imperfect men. Imperfect gullible men who thought the whole world stood on pillars.
Why dont you quote something Mahat Ghandi said about Jesus sermon on the mount?And Ghandi was an atheist.
I'm not a really a fan of Ghandi. Don't get me wrong- a lot of what he said was interesting, but he was also extremely racist at times. He's just not really my type of hero.
There is no Jehovah and let us eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.Where as the bible holds out a hope for mankind for the enemy death.
Umm...no. You seem to have another mistranslation handy, so I'll translate for you correctly- "There are no totalitarian god unless the believers can show proof for it. This has never happened. Let us work hard and be merry for this life is the only sure thing we know we have. It's best not to waste it hoping for a silly fantasy which bases itself off of ancient mythology."
Do you seriously think Jehovahs people are in over 250 lands preaching Gods kingdom in vain?
Yep. Not only the JW's though. Every arrogant religion who militantly preaches things they cannot display an ounce of proof for. Unless you can pony up, any person who values rationality and logic can easily conclude that such endeavors are fairly pointless.
http://scm-l3.technorati.com/10/09/18/18517/randi-evidence-or-gtfo.jpg
God didnt create man as an automated machine otherwise love wouldnt exist
Actually your god did and I find it to be a fatal flaw in xtian reasoning. Free will and an Omniscient/Omnipotent god do not go hand-in-hand. If a god knows everything in the past,present, and future, it's impossible to make a free choice as this god would know of it before you chose. Therefore the majority of xtians are naive to their inherent fatalist ideals.
Thank you for giving me the chance to defend Jehovah as universal sovereign and rightful ruler of universe.
Your boastful display of arrogance and naivety is entertaining. Please continue at your leisure.
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Hmmm Your Body is a vessel and your spirit is what make you a person of different beliefs.
That's simply an ignorant, superstitious religious belief which is totally devoid of substantive evidence.
Im just gonna believe in My Parent (my father) and My Heavenly Father (GOD) cause after all I trusted him more than I can trust any of you with your profound thinking.
That's simply an ignorant, superstitious religious belief which is totally devoid of substantive evidence.
The thing I will say is ARE YOU KIDDING ME. If anyone can come up with a real answer of how we came to be humans without some moron saying his thoughts or excerpts of anothers thoughts and I wont leave out that morons minions who terrrorize people of who even think that GOD exists.
Due to the provisions of free speech here, it isn't possible, (or desirable), to prevent "morons" who spew specious religious beliefs which completely lack any supportive evidence from doing so. Opposing irrational, specious religious beliefs is not 'terrorism'; religious fanatics who crash civilian aircraft into building is terrorism. Irrational religious fantics who equate the two are "morons".
I can give a rats a$$ about that moron whos gonna answer a question with a question. If you firmly belive in what your saying give some detailed reality facts ...
Every time that's been done, some religious "moron" tries to use biblical hearsay, (which lacks any supportive evidence), in lieu of "detailed reality facts" to back up their faith-based beliefs, (which lack any validity in substantive evidence). If some xtian "moron" is going to falsely characterize logical reasoning/rational opposition is such a way, they merely draw attention to their own ignorance.
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Falcon2..you never understood that Jehovah can see the future when he wants to and doesnt see it when he chooses.You just never got it.Well its ez to not understand that when your heart isnt right to discern it.
If He saw the future all the time that would mean He doesnt have control.He is God almighty and is always in control and his name means "He causes to become"
Thank you for your time
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Falcon2...your comment about Jesus death being more important then his birth a downer.....LOL....ya know i really find it hard to believe you dont understand that and yet you claim you went to meetings?
Did you hide in the coat room?LOL!!
Thanx for you time at my leisure
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Falcon2..you never understood that Jehovah can see the future when he wants to and doesnt see it when he chooses.You just never got it.Well its ez to not understand that when your heart isnt right to discern it.
If you believe that he has 'a plan', then he obviously knows every peice that leads to the enactment of that plan and that cancels out our freewill. If you're suggesting he 'turns off his powers' once in a while, you're simply speculating super-powers which is childish. We could give any attribute to this god then, which is silly.
[quoteIf He saw the future all the time that would mean He doesnt have control.He is God almighty and is always in control and his name means "He causes to become"][/quote]
If he saw the future of the things he created and he's omnipotent, it would mean that he does have complete control over events. Now you're just trying to brush the problem aside like it has already been answered.
Falcon2...your comment about Jesus death being more important then his birth a downer.....LOL....ya know i really find it hard to believe you dont understand that and yet you claim you went to meetings?
I'm speaking from a logical stance. It's better to celebrate life rather than death unless one can prove the death was extremely important. Considering Jesus's story parallels many other hero archaetypes that came before him, it's logical to conclude that the Jesus story is romanticized immensily and probably didn't happen as it's told.
http://department.monm.edu/classics/courses/clas230/mythdocuments/heropattern/default.htm
Did you hide in the coat room?LOL!!
I wish I had thought of that.
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Falcon2...yes out of love God made mankind.What did Jesus say were the first 2 commandments?Im sure you know them.Love God and neighbor.
Gods created out of love but he tested A&E to see if they accepted him as ruler and loved him.They dis-obeyed.But realize from rebellion in Eden satan raised questions.Are we better off independent from God.God has allowed time to go by to show it fails.Pretty obvious,just look at the world.Different governments tried....all fail.
Shouldnt we be grateful to be alive?Most of us dont even say thanx when we sit down to dinner for our food.
And if you were a JW you know it took a perfect man <Jesus>to balance scales of justice <Adam sinning> to ransom it back.
You dont agree with that i know and i have seen some say why didnt God just get rid of A&E and start over.He allowed it to go on so there will be no need for this anymore to question that rulership apart from HIM fails.
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Falcon2...yes out of love God made mankind.
Okay. Out of love.
Gods created out of love but he tested A&E to see if they accepted him as ruler and loved him.They dis-obeyed.But realize from rebellion in Eden satan raised questions.Are we better off independent from God.God has allowed time to go by to show it fails.Pretty obvious,just look at the world.Different governments tried....all fail.
So because adam and eve failed a test, god punished them and their children for this long? That's horrifying! That's not love! That's malevolence! What kind of sadistic mind do you have? Logically explain to me how punishing a pair of naive teens who did not have the knowledge of right and wrong is loving. Please explain how punishing generations of people for something so simple is loving. Do not dodge these questions.
Governments come and go through the ages depending on an immense amounts of information. What do you expect? Things to never change? Get with the program-- unless you can demonstrate how your god or methods are better than current governments, you have no right to talk down to any of them. It's not a wonder why JW's fail so miserably when any realism is thrown their way-- they're completely out of touch with how the world actually works.
Shouldnt we be grateful to be alive?Most of us dont even say thanx when we sit down to dinner for our food.
What the heck are you talking about? You're going all over the place now like some mindless drone.
God just get rid of A&E and start over.He allowed it to go on so there will be no need for this anymore to question that rulership apart from HIM fails.
So he allows suffering just to prove his point. That's the very definition of malevolence. And you preach this? That's immoral and sadistic.
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He allowed it to go on so there will be no need for this anymore to question that rulership apart from HIM fails.
The circularity of that illogic comes through the garbled grammar. Still, this is proselytizing a superstition, not discussing it. That's because religious fundamentalist adherents would rather propagandize than have their 'beliefs' questioned.
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Falcon2.A&E were created perfect.They were warned of dis-obeying.God said they would die.Eve told the serpent,we mustnt eat from the tree of knowledge cos God said we would die".She understood what that meant.She understood death.Satan deceived her and her heart dwelled that Satan made it sound like God was holding something better back.She didnt trust in Jehovah after God had provided them life and every good thing.Adam followed by not being deceived but by loving Eve more then God.
If you have a child and you warn him dont play with matches and the child burns himself should you be blamed for that?
A&E were not sinners until they dis-obeyed.There was no excuse for them to sin.They let their desire for independence allow them to commit a sin <means to miss the mark of Gods standards>.Again God had warned them like you warned your child NOT to play with fire.They rejected Jehovah as ruler and all the good He had given them.
That started the human race in death.But God knew some of mankind would love and obey him and He set into an arrangment for Jesus eventually to ransom the human race back from death by dying on the stake <not cross>.
The example i meant by saying thank you at eating dinner was to point out just how thank-less the human race is in many ways.We are all guilty of sin because we inherited it from A&E but there is a difference between making an honest mistake and living & enjoying sin.
God knows the heart condition of us better then we know ourselves.Ultimately He will decide what we all think of his arrangement with His kingdom thru Jesus.
Thank you for allowing me to discuss this
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Falcon2......so you are gonna wait until man-made governments finally get it right?LOL!!!
And maybe you are gonna be patient too that man will find the fountain of youth and cure dying.
You are blind to what is going on in this world.
You & others here remind me of a child when they are mad at their parents and they yell back at them,I didnt ask to be born".
Thank you
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Falcon2.A&E were created perfect.They were warned of dis-obeying.God said they would die.Eve told the serpent,we mustnt eat from the tree of knowledge cos God said we would die".She understood what that meant.She understood death.Satan deceived her and her heart dwelled that Satan made it sound like God was holding something better back.She didnt trust in Jehovah after God had provided them life and every good thing.Adam followed by not being deceived but by loving Eve more then God.
Perfection- entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings
You contradict yourself in the first 2 sentences-- a perfect individual wouldn't need warnings. They're perfect. If the girl was stupid enough to follow a talking disney serpent, she was majorly flawed on so many levels. Besides, this story is just the first of several mysogynistic tales you preach. You seriously don't see one problem preaching this?
If you have a child and you warn him dont play with matches and the child burns himself should you be blamed for that?
YES! I'M THE PARENT. It is my responsibility to keep the kid out of harms way even if he/she's about to go out of their way to do something very stupid. What kind of idiotic parental figure would have matches in reach of a child? Why would they put them in reach in the first place? Only a malevolent parent would do such a thing! Are you seeing the flaws yet, or are you still playing the deluded card where 'my god has no flaws'?
A&E were not sinners until they dis-obeyed.There was no excuse for them to sin.They let their desire for independence allow them to commit a sin <means to miss the mark of Gods standards>.Again God had warned them like you warned your child NOT to play with fire.They rejected Jehovah as ruler and all the good He had given them.
According to your bible, A+E did not have the knowledge of right or wrong until after the disobedience so I fail to see how that's not a valid excuse.
The example i meant by saying thank you at eating dinner was to point out just how thank-less the human race is in many ways.We are all guilty of sin because we inherited it from A&E but there is a difference between making an honest mistake and living & enjoying sin.
Everyone usually thanks the people who prepare and/or serve the food, so I don't understand where you're coming from. You and your followers inherit this 'sin' willingly and waste your time subscribing to ancient guilt-tripping ideas. Others who think differently do not. Praying to an invisible metaphysical being with no proof of it's existence before you eat your hamburger is pointless unless you can display proof of your god. I demand proof, or your entire argument and mythology is fallible from the get-go and you cannot be taken seriously.
so you are gonna wait until man-made governments finally get it right?
When did I say that? Again, you're completely out of touch with the world. There will never be a perfect government, but it's always important to strive for it. It causes governments to evolve. The thing about perfection is that it's unknowable. It's impossible, but it's also right in front of us all the time. You wouldn't know that because you're out-of-touch with the idea of perfection. You think it's attainable because you put that quality on your invisible friend and your ancient mythology like it's attainable. And that's why it's wasted on beings like yourself- leeching off of people striving to make things better while promoting ancient hogwash that you can't even prove really happened. It's a parasitic strategy and bogs progress overall.
And maybe you are gonna be patient too that man will find the fountain of youth and cure dying.
You are blind to what is going on in this world.
And yet here I am schooling you on basic moral principles, science, and history lessons. For the 50th time now, you've failed to make a legitimate point. Scientists are constantly researching life extension methods. Who knows? By 2040 we may have a technological method of keeping people alive forever. We've already been successful in erradicating diseases, removing birth-defects, extending life 3-4 times of what it was a millenia ago, getting off of this planet, searching the stars, and communicating with people around the world in mere seconds. I'd say we have a fair chance of figuring out the 'death-cure' in the future. Granted more problems can stem from these achievements, you're telling me I'm blind for not being pessimistic and depressing like yourself-- that I should push all of it aside in favor of what some ancient gullibles wrote thousands of years ago that you can't even prove are legitimate stories. Who's blind? Let me add to that- who's deaf and dumb?
You & others here remind me of a child when they are mad at their parents and they yell back at them,I didnt ask to be born
Huh? How? I enjoy life! I'm flying out to California in 2 weeks with my brother and a friend of ours from Germany! It's a big world out there worth exploring! I'm free of any shackles the religious debbie-downers like yourself needlessly try to latch onto people. Perhaps you should ask yourself if you asked to be shackled to a off-shoot religion born from false prophets who tell you to not partake in many qualities this awesome world has to offer.
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He set into an arrangment for Jesus eventually to ransom the human race back from death by dying ...
That "soteriological" religious 'hypothesis' has no rational basis whatsoever, (relying entirely upon faith/belief in such a 'magical' blood sacrifice in a circularly illogical manner). It relies on more than one unsupported assumption; that such a blood sacrifice ritual can 'magically' serve as a ransomed kidnap victim or, that there is any connection between such an irrational concept and the 'erasing' of "sin". Obviously, few, (or none), of you religious adherents have ever questioned the completely unsupportable and illogical basis of soteriology.
Ultimately He will decide what we all think of his arrangement with His kingdom thru Jesus.
Your hypothetical supernatural egregore may decide what some deluded followers "all think" but, has no input on what others do. It is religiously-arrogant hubris to believe that your religious mythology extends to those who don't believe such irrational nonsense, (and hypocritically offensive for you minions to evangelize blind faith). This is why such blind faith must be opposed; it spreads ignorance like a virus.
Thank you for allowing me to discuss this
You're not discussing; you're simply evangelizing, poorly.
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I only have 1 thing to say......
WHERE THE HEC IS NARV WHO STARTED THIS!!!!
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I beg your absolution for not responding. I was otherwise occupied and didn't have much time for FusionCash.
I promise you, I wasn't doing this:
(http://i.minus.com/ikuwwmvMZmuxD.gif)
So, from what has been said, it seems that the assumptions of Atheism (agnostic variety) are:
- Noone who is "religious" can prove what they say. Any attempt at proof is circular reasoning.
- Thus, we have no reason to believe that any deity exists.
- All that exists is the material universe. (cf. Carl Sagan's Cosmos)
Normally, I like to distinguish between Atheism and Agnosticism, but unless there are people here who are adamant that there is no God and they think they can prove it, I will just talk refer to Agnostic Atheism as simply Atheism (You guys certainly like words that start with A's ;) .
BTW, I'm not going to be addressing the religion of the JW, because the underlying assumptions are similar to those on which Christianity depends, except that the scriptures they hold to are not the same as those of the Christian religion. But if y'all want to argue about it, knock yourselves out.
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most religons last about 2 thousand years
the ad and bc on time lines is based off Christ
The calanders day schedual is based off him also.
Athiests believe there is no God
If I am a Christian and I die, then there is no God I end up like a Atheist.
If Im right, I am saved the Athesist Goes to Hell.
Seems Christianity is a better Choice than the Athiest who is certian to limbo after death, no purpose to be on Earth, nothingness.... :angel11:
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most religons last about 2 thousand years
That is incorrect. There are several "religions" which have had both shorter and longer endurance than 2,000 years.
The calanders day schedual is based off him also.
That is incorrect. The Gregorian calendar is not based upon xtian religious misconceptions. In 1582, Pope Gregory XIII ordered the advancement of the calendar by 10 days and introduced a new corrective device to curb further error: century years such as 1700 or 1800 would no longer be counted as leap years, unless they were (like 1600 or 2000) divisible by 400. This was not done for "catholic reasons".
Athiests believe there is no God
That is incorrect. "Atheists" generally disbelieve theist claims that there is a 'g-d', (though some may make unsupported declarations that such a hypothetical egregore does *not* exist, many do not make that unsubstantiated assertion).
If I am a Christian and I die, then there is no God I end up like a Atheist.
If Im right, I am saved the Athesist Goes to Hell.
Seems Christianity is a better Choice than the Athiest who is certian to limbo after death, no purpose to be on Earth, nothingness.... :angel11:
That's fallacious non-reasoning, based upon the invalidated "Pascal's Wager", (invalid, because it make several a priori false assumptions as both premise, syllogism and conclusion). The correct syllogism is; if you live laboring under a false religious belief, (blind faith), this has a net negative impact on rationality/reason. If you die a xtian, you will have died deluded and expectant. On the other hand, if one has lived life not being self-deluded, that's a net gain and dying undeluded results in no superstitious 'punishment'.
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Narv
Every belief,teaching etc from JWs are bible based.I have even heard some sects claim they dont believe in Jesus.That really is a good one.They are the only sect that memorializes his death at his bible based command.
Now i realize many other sects claim to teach the bible but when u examine them they dont.
I also understand other sects say Jesus is God.Psalms 83:18 says Gods name is Jehovah.Jesus said the father is greater then I.Jesus said let this cup pass me not as i want but as you do.There are many other scriptures that point Jesus being Gods begotten son.First of all creation.Godlike,yes.The supreme being that always was...NO...That title belongs to Jehovah.
The xtian religeon.LOL!Jesus said the true followers would worship the father with spirit and truth and have love among themselves.Bowing down to a lifeless concrete statue and putting a flag in your domain goes against all that.
Thank you for taking time outta your busy schedule
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Every belief,teaching etc from JWs are bible based.
Since the "bible" consists of unsupported hearsay propped-up by empty, (no evidence), religious beliefs, the xtian religion has no substantive basis. The jw cult could be based upon the 'Ramblings of The Mighty Snipe' and it would have as much merit.
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No Comment on that to each its own. Trap for attack! :bootyshake: :bs:
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Posting a comment stating "no comment" and then commenting is it's own "trap" of circularity.
No Comment on that to each its own. Trap for attack! :bootyshake: :bs:
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Since the "bible" consists of unsupported hearsay propped-up by empty, (no evidence), religious beliefs, the xtian religion has no substantive basis. The jw cult could be based upon the 'Ramblings of The Mighty Snipe' and it would have as much merit.
No Comment on that to each its own. Trap for attack! :bootyshake: :bs:
Posting a comment stating "no comment" and then commenting is it's own "trap" of circularity.
SOOoooo.........did anyone check the traps this morning? Just wondering if they caught anything.......like one of those nasty commentas that's attacking everyone it can.
(quoting vp44) "Trap for attack!"
The traps are those new ones, called 'Circularity' - 'Super-Deluxe Trap Featuring Dual CommentaReveal' Woo-hoo!!
"Guaranteed to Catch ALL Bad Commentas. Complete With :bs: Comm-Lure. (Use of lure optional)
WARNING: Bad Commentas hide easily, & can camouflage themselves. They will hide & wait, then
attack/bite."
OK, that may very likely have been an excerpt from 'Ramblings of The Mighty Snipe' (The 'Shrooms Version)
Definitely the Ramblings of a Mighty SOMETHING.......
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I could try to put together a list of assumptions for Atheism, but I would rather have y'all do that, and I might compare to what my guess would have been.
That's good of you not to stereotype what you probably know nothing about. Correct atheist assumptions:
* Atheism is the LACK of belief in a god or gods, not the "denial" of these gods' existence (very important)
* Atheists don't "hate" god and are not "mad" at god, nor to they worship the devil...see point above.
* Atheists don't lack morals; in fact, ours are often superior to a religious person's because our morals are based on things that make SENSE (not "some book told me so").
* Atheism isn't a religion; it's the lack of religion, in fact. When nonfundie religious folks are just living their normal lives, being secular, not doing anything religious in the moment...that's how atheists live all the time.
I'm sure there many more I'm forgetting to mention, so consider this the appetizer.
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I could try to put together a list of assumptions for Atheism, but I would rather have y'all do that, and I might compare to what my guess would have been.
That's good of you not to stereotype what you probably know nothing about. Correct atheist assumptions:
* Atheism is the LACK of belief in a god or gods, not the "denial" of these gods' existence (very important)
* Atheists don't "hate" god and are not "mad" at god, nor to they worship the devil...see point above.
* Atheists don't lack morals; in fact, ours are often superior to a religious person's because our morals are based on things that make SENSE (not "some book told me so").
* Atheism isn't a religion; it's the lack of religion, in fact. When nonfundie religious folks are just living their normal lives, being secular, not doing anything religious in the moment...that's how atheists live all the time.
I'm sure there many more I'm forgetting to mention, so consider this the appetizer.
Thank you for the appetizer, QoN. It's more substantial than a taste however, I'm glad you emphasized the "lack of belief" aspect of general atheism. "A-theism"= not theism; a distinction which isn't all that subtle in regards to the difference between not believing a theistic contention which lacks evidence and agnosticism.
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I could try to put together a list of assumptions for Atheism, but I would rather have y'all do that, and I might compare to what my guess would have been.
That's good of you not to stereotype what you probably know nothing about. Correct atheist assumptions:
* Atheism is the LACK of belief in a god or gods, not the "denial" of these gods' existence (very important)
* Atheists don't "hate" god and are not "mad" at god, nor to they worship the devil...see point above.
* Atheists don't lack morals; in fact, ours are often superior to a religious person's because our morals are based on things that make SENSE (not "some book told me so").
* Atheism isn't a religion; it's the lack of religion, in fact. When nonfundie religious folks are just living their normal lives, being secular, not doing anything religious in the moment...that's how atheists live all the time.
I'm sure there many more I'm forgetting to mention, so consider this the appetizer.
You are incorrect in a few of your points:
Positive Atheists (also called strong/hard) absolutely assert that no god exists. Negative Atheists (weak/soft) do not believe in the existence of a god, but do not absolutely state there to be none.
Atheism is indeed a religion and has even been recognized as one in US courts (ninth circuit and The Supreme Court to name two).
You make reckless generalizations on others:
Subjective morality is a dangerous thing and leads to such evils as "for the greater good" and "for the good of mankind/country/etc" and things like infanticide and gender based infanticide, redistribution of wealth through forceful theft, etc. When a person is allowed on their own to decide what is good or bad or a consensus of people are allowed to decide such things there is no end to the horrendous deeds that will follow. People become numb in time to nearly anything and popular culture often can reflect such a tendency. I am sure that cannibal tribes never viewed their actions as immoral.
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I could try to put together a list of assumptions for Atheism, but I would rather have y'all do that, and I might compare to what my guess would have been.
That's good of you not to stereotype what you probably know nothing about. Correct atheist assumptions:
* Atheism is the LACK of belief in a god or gods, not the "denial" of these gods' existence (very important)
* Atheists don't "hate" god and are not "mad" at god, nor to they worship the devil...see point above.
* Atheists don't lack morals; in fact, ours are often superior to a religious person's because our morals are based on things that make SENSE (not "some book told me so").
* Atheism isn't a religion; it's the lack of religion, in fact. When nonfundie religious folks are just living their normal lives, being secular, not doing anything religious in the moment...that's how atheists live all the time.
I'm sure there many more I'm forgetting to mention, so consider this the appetizer.
You are incorrect in a few of your points:
Positive Atheists (also called strong/hard) absolutely assert that no god exists. Negative Atheists (weak/soft) do not believe in the existence of a god, but do not absolutely state there to be none.
The points are correct as far as general atheism is concerned. Positive/negative atheism wasn't specified until this response. Although neither QoN nor "narv" specified "positive" or "negative" atheism, QoN's points would apply to "negative atheism" and are correct under that specification.
Atheism is indeed a religion and has even been recognized as one in US courts (ninth circuit and The Supreme Court to name two).
False. A prison study group formed to discuss atheism is not a "religion", (the courts determined that such would be given the same provisional protections in prison as religious study groups had; it did not determine that atheism itself is a religion). It remains that atheism is not a religion under the standard defining parameters which constitute a "religion", (despite such misrepresenting of U.S. court decisions).
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Positive Atheists (also called strong/hard) absolutely assert that no god exists. Negative Atheists (weak/soft) do not believe in the existence of a god, but do not absolutely state there to be none.
I was talking about general atheism, the umbrella under which all atheists fall. Most atheists are "soft", but even if they're not, my statement was not incorrect when it comes to a lack of belief of deities.
Atheism is indeed a religion and has even been recognized as one in US courts (ninth circuit and The Supreme Court to name two).
Anyone who's been around the block a few times knows that the "standards" we have in place in this world are not always correct. It would be a logical fallacy (appeal to authority) to assume what the government has to say about atheism has any bearing in the slightest.
Subjective morality is a dangerous thing and leads to such evils as "for the greater good"
You say that god/the Bible provides "objective" morality, but it's really not objective, is it, when it's just your opinion on what's contained in the text? If morals truly were "objective", there would be a clear universal force that specifically and clearly spelled each situation out in black or white (with no room for gray). But this is not the case.
I am sure that cannibal tribes never viewed their actions as immoral.
And they weren't, because a universal "right" and "wrong" does not exist. This isn't to say that there aren't consequences or benefits in choosing one action over another.
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I could try to put together a list of assumptions for Atheism, but I would rather have y'all do that, and I might compare to what my guess would have been.
That's good of you not to stereotype what you probably know nothing about. Correct atheist assumptions:
* Atheism is the LACK of belief in a god or gods, not the "denial" of these gods' existence (very important)
* Atheists don't "hate" god and are not "mad" at god, nor to they worship the devil...see point above.
* Atheists don't lack morals; in fact, ours are often superior to a religious person's because our morals are based on things that make SENSE (not "some book told me so").
* Atheism isn't a religion; it's the lack of religion, in fact. When nonfundie religious folks are just living their normal lives, being secular, not doing anything religious in the moment...that's how atheists live all the time.
I'm sure there many more I'm forgetting to mention, so consider this the appetizer.
You are incorrect in a few of your points:
Positive Atheists (also called strong/hard) absolutely assert that no god exists. Negative Atheists (weak/soft) do not believe in the existence of a god, but do not absolutely state there to be none.
Atheism is indeed a religion and has even been recognized as one in US courts (ninth circuit and The Supreme Court to name two).
You make reckless generalizations on others:
Subjective morality is a dangerous thing and leads to such evils as "for the greater good" and "for the good of mankind/country/etc" and things like infanticide and gender based infanticide, redistribution of wealth through forceful theft, etc. When a person is allowed on their own to decide what is good or bad or a consensus of people are allowed to decide such things there is no end to the horrendous deeds that will follow. People become numb in time to nearly anything and popular culture often can reflect such a tendency. I am sure that cannibal tribes never viewed their actions as immoral.
"Horrendous deeds?" Once again, you display your fine sense of comedy. You're a funny guy, but maybe you should open a history book every once in a while.
Do you have any knowledge of the torture and burning of so-called witches and so-called heretics all across Europe during the middle ages? Have you ever heard of the Crusades and the sacking of Constantinople in 1204?
"The Crusaders looted and vandalized Constantinople for three days, during which many ancient and medieval Roman and Greek works were either stolen or destroyed. The famous bronze horses from the Hippodrome were sent back to adorn the facade of St Mark's Basilica in Venice, where they still remain.
The Library of Constantinople was destroyed. Despite their oaths and the threat of excommunication, the Crusaders systematically violated the city's holy sanctuaries, destroying, or stealing all they could lay hands on; nothing was spared.
It was said that the total amount looted from Constantinople was about 900,000 silver marks. The Venetians received 150,000 silver marks that was their due, while the Crusaders received 50,000 silver marks. A further 100,000 silver marks were divided evenly up between the Crusaders and Venetians. The remaining 500,000 silver marks were secretly kept back by many Crusader knights. Latin residents of Constantinople, meanwhile, took revenge for the Massacre of the Latins of 1182." (from Wikipedia)
It's also possible that you never heard about the Spanish Inquisition and the torture and forceful conversion of Jews and other "heretics?" In fact, the forced conversion of native people all across the planet. The 30 Years War and numerous other wars of religion. How about the Salem witch trials?
I could go on and on, a very long history of thoroughly barbaric acts, these are just a few examples of your christian "love" and "charity." You can keep all that for yourself and your fellow christians.
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Alaric
Jesus spoke of many claiming to be xtian but they were offspring of the devil.The bible speaks of Babylon the Great being devoured in Revelation.Babylon the Great stands for the false empire of Christendom because the root of many false doctrines started in Babylon with Nimrod.
I am in agreement with many who find christendom repulsive because of what she stands for and all the death and disgusting things she has caused.The bible speaks of her being devoured soon by the governments of this world when God puts it into their hearts to do so.
Just remember this,God wasnt the cause for christendom to meddle in politics and wars.Yet He gets blamed for much of this when if we read the bible Jesus says,"my world or kingdom is no part of this satanic system"...You do recall when satan asked him to bow down and worship him and he would give him all the kingdoms of the world?
Again there is a fine line to religeons that claim to teach the bible but DONT.
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Jesus spoke of many claiming to be xtian but they were offspring of the devil.
Is that your explanation for JWs and does the "devil" owe their mothers child support?
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I would lay off the radishes....dont you get tired of repeating yourself?
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The preceding reply wasn't a repetition of any previous post. You may consider laying-off on the specious non-reasoning caused by being blinded by religious faith, (though I doubt you're any more capable of this than you are of utilizing the 'ignore' function). The tediously-repeated religious proselytization you're engaged in may be intended to produce sufficient mind-numbing to allow a suspension of any ability to reason however, that doesn't always work. It may have worked in your instance but, not in mine.
I would lay off the radishes....dont you get tired of repeating yourself?
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Try holding your breath or drinking a large glass of water.
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Try escaping from your self-delusions.
Try holding your breath or drinking a large glass of water.
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A sudden scare or being startled may help.Im sure you have access to a mirror.
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A sudden scare or being startled may help.Im sure you have access to a mirror.
My preference is to hold the mirror of your own superstitious ignorance up so that the reflection of specious blind faith has an opportunity to startle fundamentalism out of sanctimonious complacency.
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Well good luck with your journey.....and again if i were you id lay off the radishes.....
Thanx for your time.
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'A man who thought he was John the Baptist was disturbing the
neighborhood, so for public safety, he was committed.
He was put in a room with another crazy and immediately began
his routine, "I am John The Baptist! Jesus Christ has sent me!"
The other guy looks at him and declares, "I did not!"'
--anon.
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I am neither because Atheism is just as much of a belief as Christianity. :-X
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I am neither because Atheism is just as much of a belief as Christianity. :-X
That is incorrect; a-theism is not theism, (which requires belief - that which lacks evidence). Since atheism the opposite of theism, it is the opposite of a theist belief system such as xtianity.