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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: 502mania on February 24, 2011, 10:36:01 am
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........
By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!
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:sad1: This is my understanding of what God wants from you. He wants you to acknowledge that HE is the ONE and ONLY true GOD. You accept Christ as the son of God and Christ interceeds on your behalf before God. That is why you pray to God through Jesus Christ. It states in the Bible that NO MAN SHALL ENTER HEAVEN BY GOOD WORKS ALONE. But to each their own. You have a choice to believe anyway you may want. HAVE A BLESSED DAY!!!
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honestly i believe christianity was a way man evented to control ones thoughts and acts, think about it they preach god is love the purest love so pure we are to imitate it, so then why would he condemn us his children to hell, i mean we are sinners but still would never condemn our children to hell would we,
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good works won't get you there... and denial of GOD who sent HIS only SON to die for your sin issues a curse. you can take it from there.
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Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord. Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven. Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........
By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!
exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!
They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.
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This video is, granted, a bit extreme and offensive, but it raises a good point: Accountability is a good thing. There are far too few people who take responsibility for their own actions in this world, and can you think of any reasons why? If nothing I do will ever be good enough, why should I waste my time being good?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWAUhadJzTk&feature=related
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Lucifer (the devil) was demoted out of Heaven.
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Lucifer (the devil) was demoted out of Heaven.
Yep, along with his co-hort angels he convinced to rebel against God also. Sin can never enter there. Only the redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb.
No, works alone will not get you into heaven, but "Faith without works is dead". Anybody can say they believe the sun will come up tomorrow, and it will rain at it's appointed time, but saying so and believing is just faith...no works. However, if you plant the seed, it is works from that faith of the sun, and rain, to grow a harvest, to produce a reward from that initial Faith in the first place.
I can say I believe in God, many do. The Bible says the devil believes the Word of God and trembles in fear. Believing is one thing, but taking it to "works" from that belief, is something else entirely.
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The reason so many Christians think only those who accept Christ will go to Biblical Heaven is because that is what the Bible clearly states. Satan is known as the great deceiver, and he doesn't need anyone's permission to deceive them. I think Satan will have MANY believing that as long as they are "just good people, living a good life" that they will go to Heaven---and he will be laughing at them later because they bought that lie. The Bible clearly states only those that accept Jesus into their hearts and have their sins forgiven will be saved. (The longer one is saved, the more that God will expect from them because Christianity is more than "lip-service".) For God to let anyone else into Heaven for any other reason would be to make Jesus a liar...and that isn't going to happen. Choose whom you're going to serve wisely...you WILL be spending eternity with them.
Well put, SherylsShado!!!
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so my eternal punishment or reward is determined by what i believe rather than my actions? so an athiest who saves every child from poverty goes to hell, to be tormented forever, while the child molester who "repented to christ" gets eternal paradise? seriously??? ??? ??? ... what about the native americans - they were good people and they wanted to share this land but instead they were cheated and killed off. did they go to hell?
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it sounds like me this od you talkingabout has some serious troubles and may need to go to theapy to resolve it.....im leaning to anger management problems....
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First off my God is your God even if you don't believe in Him. Second, the answer to your question is no. If this person never heard about Jesus Christ and lived his life as best he could always obeying his conscious and never knowingly or willingly commited and act that was opposed to his conscious, then he would not go to hell. However, if he new about Jesus Christ and consciously and willing rejected Him and His teachings, and never repented and then died, then yes he would go to hell. Jesus is the only one that gives eternal life. There is no other "normal" way to enter eternal life but by the way of Jesus.
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Let me elaborate on my previous post:
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Paragraph 1257: ...The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation (jn 3:5). He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them (Mt 28: 19-20). Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament (MK 16:16). The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can e baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
Paragraph 1258: The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
Paragraph 1259: For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
Paragraph 1260: "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicityly if they had known its necessity.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
A "Christian" who thinks that clearly hasn't read the OT.
So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Since you're still alive, I don't know.
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The thing about Christianity - is that it is just one of many organized religions. It is a by product of people who found the Catholic religion too strict, or with its faults. The truth is that all organized religions have their faults. The Bible we know today and the most widely used - The King James version is exactly that - a version translated during King James's reign - it is actually missing several books from the original bible.
But other than that - I am open minded enough that I want to learn about ALL religions. Learn their practices, their beliefs and so forth - to find similarities as well differences. And that includes the ancient religions/beliefs of the Mayans, the Greek, The Romans, The Egyptians, and The Sumerians. According to Scientific discovery they were the first of the human race. For Christianity beliefs - Adam & Eve, Cain & Able, & their children.
I have been raised a Southern Baptist. But I've attended Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, and several other denominational churches. HOWEVER, there are several things that don't make sense to me about the things in the Bible. For example - The first chapters in Genesis state that it was normal for people to live over 900 years old. Also "And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth" Genesis 7:5. Another thing that doesn't necessarily make sense to me is even beginnign with Adam & Eve... If God is this All-Knowing All -Seeing Omniscient being than why in the Garden of Eden did he have to search for Adam & Eve? "And they heard the voice of the Lord God, walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the Trees of garden. And Lord God called unto Adam and said unto him Where art thou? And he said, I heard they voice in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked: and I hid myself." Genesis 3:8-10.
Looking at the Translations of the Sumerian Tablets of Creation though - many of the Biblical stories coincide, including that of Adam & Eve, Cain & Able, Noah. But they did not have a single God. They knew the Annunaki as their God. Which several of the things that were made to be unheard of - like God putting Adam to a deep sleep, taking a rib, closing him up & using that to make Eve - is that really much different than any transplant operation that surgeons do everyday - take an organ from one person & give another person new life with it??? Even Jesus himself - I'm not saying he wasn't real or that any of the miracle & such that he went through weren't real - I can't say that because I wasn't there, no one alive today was. So how can we know for sure - without a doubt that any of that happened or was it anything like the illusions of today - for example the best illusionist & magician alive today Criss Angel who does some things that many people believe completely impossible - bending the rules of physics? Because the Bible said so - it also said Adam and Eve were the creation of humans - but both Cain and Able found wives from somewhere? When Cain was banished - he found a whole other civilization. According the Sumerian Tablets of Creation - when Ka-in was banished - his DNA was altered so that he could not grow facial hair & that was his mark of his betrayal for murdering his brother. And that is supposedly why Native Americans don't grown facial hair. So, actually think about it- have you ever seen a full blooded Native American, real or depicted from the past, with facial hair?? Why is that if we were all created from the same Adam & Eve?? Also, why are we, especially Christians so quick to dismiss the religions of the middle east as flat out wrong - when that was the region where Jesus was born, same as Moses. I'm not saying they are completely right or wrong or if they simply have lost the original knowledge through the generations & may be misguided now - but I would like to know more about their religion, especially since after all the Bible had to be translated from Arabic. I would like to again - study the similarities as well the differences between ALL religions.
Don't get me wrong - I do have faith, & want so badly to believe there is some great loving God with our best intentions and destinies in mind or planned out for us. As well, I believe in Angels. I don't have much choice but to believe in Angels after my brother saw my guardian angel protecting from illness that he caught out of the blue when I was 9 years old. But at the same time - we were given brains & free will to be able to think for ourselves. So why is it so horrible for someone to have faith - but still have questions and not be satisfied with the cookie cutter answers.
I'm not putting any religion down - just would like some answers & for people to think a little more thoroughly about it all.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........
By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!
exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!
They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.
satan was thrown from the highest heaven with 1/3 of his angels who rose up in pride to place themselves above GOD who had created them all. in the end GOD has prepared a place for them in the pit of hell...Until the end GOD has let satan be the power of the air... In the end light & darkness will separate, light will go up and darkness will go down... so those who walk in darkness now should not be surprised that they will spend eternity in darkness, while others who accept & know HIM, will be walking on streets of gold. Salvation motivates those who accept YESHUA/JESUS as their redeemer to good works that reflect YESHUA/JESUS. They do all that they do in love as an extension of the LORD. They do not do good works for selfish reasons, nor do they desire to promote them self or to brag. So most that walk in HIS Will do not call attention to what they do, and often go un notice. The Bible is understood by those who seek HIM, those who study the Bible to elevate themselves live in constant fear of dying and walk blindly.
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He will know exactly what has been in each person's heart, He knows each person's every thought....He will know every action one ever made. He will know exactly how many times one heard "the message of Christ" and ignored it. He will also know those that never heard the message of Christ (and what happens there I'm not certain but I know He will be fair & just). He will know every motive, there will be no hiding anything from Him.
Those that aren't covered by the blood of Christ, those that never wanted to give God a second thought, those that were deceived by satan will now be officially "given" to satan (they now officially belong to satan, God is done wasting His time on them) and they all will be spending eternity in hell and as powerful as satan is...I think one can bet that he will "reign" there.
SherylsShado - I just have a couple questions - if God is All-Knowing All-Seeing and everything else - how did he not know that Adam & Eve ate from the forbidden tree immediately? How did he not find out until later when Adam confessed to not only eating the apple but also to realizing his nakedness. Didn't Adam confess, apologize & seek forgiveness? But yet he & Eve were still cast out of Eden, which if probably the Earthly equivalent to Heaven, anyway. If God is all understanding and forgiving wouldn't he have forgiven Adam & Eve of their fault when they begged for His forgiveness??
And the way you describe the Revelations - the End of all ends - slightly confused... what Satan and God can get along well enough to divide souls like they were poker chips won? Really? And "God is done wasting his time on them"... really? This all righteous love this absolute love can just turn his back on his children because they either didn't know or didn't listen to Him?? Are you a mother? I am. I'll admit sometimes I get aggravated with my kids but no matter how bad they are, or how rebellious, or dis-obedient they are I know I could never turn my back on them - not completely & certainly not enough to have them tortured and tormented in Hell knowing I have a nice cozy spot in Heaven. Could you?? I don't think God who teaches us how to love, being that He is the ultimate love - could honestly be that cold. Sorry, I can't believe that a God can be so forgiving and merciful but at the same time cold and unyielding. Its a complete oxymoron.
Also, if you stand so strongly by the fact that there will be a mix of religions, tribes, denominations etc going to both Heaven & Hell.... you're contradicting you're own beliefs. Because if "you're way" (by that I mean the Christian belief) is the ONLY way to Heaven - then how can other religions or denominations or tribes be accepted if they believe another way or a different way is the way to Heaven ???
I'm just confused and would like to get some clarity.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........
By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!
exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!
They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.
satan was thrown from the highest heaven with 1/3 of his angels who rose up in pride to place themselves above GOD who had created them all. in the end GOD has prepared a place for them in the pit of hell...Until the end GOD has let satan be the power of the air... In the end light & darkness will separate, light will go up and darkness will go down... so those who walk in darkness now should not be surprised that they will spend eternity in darkness, while others who accept & know HIM, will be walking on streets of gold. Salvation motivates those who accept YESHUA/JESUS as their redeemer to good works that reflect YESHUA/JESUS. They do all that they do in love as an extension of the LORD. They do not do good works for selfish reasons, nor do they desire to promote them self or to brag. So most that walk in HIS Will do not call attention to what they do, and often go un notice. The Bible is understood by those who seek HIM, those who study the Bible to elevate themselves live in constant fear of dying and walk blindly.
(according to the bible) Satan was in heaven... period. Thats all my point was. so evil can be in heaven, great. I've read the bible, and I know how the whole religion thing works.. just doesn't add up.
and what about those people who do good deeds just because they are good people, but have never even heard of jesus? They go to hell? Pretty f**ked up IMO.
No one seems to want to answer this question.. I guess thats an answer in itself.
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sflynt - I don't think anyone really knows. There's plenty of speculation based on religious beliefs from who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell, or like some religions believe in reincarnation. But since we're all still alive - none of us can actually knowingly answer that.
And you're right, Satan was Heaven. He was even one of the more powerful or higher authorities among Angels... At least until he rebelled against God's wishes. But I agree with you - there's several things that don't make sense with religion.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........
By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!
exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!
They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.
They claim "god is good" and I just don't see it at all. If there is a god that allows innocent to suffer while demanding love and attention from everyone "or else" then that is not good being in my honest opinion. If the is the kind of "god" to be worshiped then count me out lol!
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What is it that would make one think that God absolutely did not know that Adam & Eve ate from the forbidden tree immediately? My thoughts are that after the incident, God called out to Adam asking where he is...it wasn't because God can't find Adam but rather that Adam & Eve were already feeling the effects of disobedience, and their sin had "separated" them from God.
The Bible doesn't say Adam & Eve confessed (in the garden) because they were repentant, it says they each placed the blame elsewhere (they tried to "fool" God, but one can't fool an all-knowing God) and then they only admitted fault because they "got caught". I wonder if they even really fully comprehended what was happening right away because this was the FIRST time they had ever disobeyed, and their FIRST taste of what discipline was. Even if they had admitted and apologized right away, there are consequences one has to live with for making the wrong choices.
A couple of things - after they ate the apple is when their eyes were really opened. Because until that point they had not known they were naked. They saw they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7
Genesis 3:8-11 quoted "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him. Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
And he said Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
So that is why I say God did not know immediately that they had eaten from the tree. Also, if God is an All-knowing All-seeing being how would Adam even been able to hide from God among the trees??? He wouldn't if God knows all & sees all. That's all I'm saying. oh and by the way - it was not until after they ate from the tree that they even knew difference between good and evil & gained free will.
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SherylsShado - I'm not saying that he won't stick to his word & that some people won't still go to Hell, what I was commenting on was the way you worded it - it sounded like they would just be dividing up chips they won over a poker game or something. Its not that cold - I mean it can't be. Not for a God to be so loving. And the fact that he has to be understanding to those who never knew him. And does it really condemn us to hell for using our brains & questioning the version of the Bible that we have today?? When if you really read through it - there are things that just don't make a whole lot of sense..... ?? Like I said - I've been raised a southern baptist & I do believe - but that doesn't mean that I don't notice discrepancies within the Bible & choose to question those discrepancies. Does that mean I'm going to Hell ???
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What is it that would make one think that God absolutely did not know that Adam & Eve ate from the forbidden tree immediately? My thoughts are that after the incident, God called out to Adam asking where he is...it wasn't because God can't find Adam but rather that Adam & Eve were already feeling the effects of disobedience, and their sin had "separated" them from God.
The Bible doesn't say Adam & Eve confessed (in the garden) because they were repentant, it says they each placed the blame elsewhere (they tried to "fool" God, but one can't fool an all-knowing God) and then they only admitted fault because they "got caught". I wonder if they even really fully comprehended what was happening right away because this was the FIRST time they had ever disobeyed, and their FIRST taste of what discipline was. Even if they had admitted and apologized right away, there are consequences one has to live with for making the wrong choices.
A couple of things - after they ate the apple is when their eyes were really opened. Because until that point they had not known they were naked. They saw they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7
Genesis 3:8-11 quoted "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him. Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
And he said Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?"
So that is why I say God did not know immediately that they had eaten from the tree. Also, if God is an All-knowing All-seeing being how would Adam even been able to hide from God among the trees??? He wouldn't if God knows all & sees all. That's all I'm saying. oh and by the way - it was not until after they ate from the tree that they even knew difference between good and evil & gained free will.
Like Sheryl said, God did know what they had done. He was giving them the opportunity to be accountable to their own actions, just as a parent would do. Because He is God, He is all-knowing but they didn't understand that concept.
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A couple of things - after they ate the apple is when their eyes were really opened Because until that point they had not known they were naked. They saw they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7
I agree, that is when their "eyes were really opened"...NOT when God's eyes were "opened", He already knew. The Bible says Adam & Eve were "hiding", it doesn't say that God "lost them, couldn't find them, didn't see them or that He didn't know where they were". He called out to them...He KNEW they were there, God doesn't go around "talking to Himself". Where in the Bible do you see verses that support the thought "oh and by the way - it was not until after they ate from the tree that they even knew difference between good and evil & gained free will"??? "----- They were created with free will from the beginning, it was their decision to "use their free will" and make their own choice regardless of what God told them to do that got them into trouble. They already knew the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do because God had told them. They already had the right to use their "free will" because they used it. What changed when they disobeyed God was they were no longer in "perfect harmony" with Him, their sin had changed everything.
If God knew where Adam & Eve were - he wouldn't have to ask "Where are you?" !! That's my point. He would simply have to say "Adam - come out from behind that tree" .. yes, vague modern translation but the point is still the same. And yea he knew they were in the Garden - but not EXACTLY WHERE in the garden like an "ALL-KNOWING" God would have.
The verse that says they didn't know the difference between good and evil is as follows:
Genesis 3:7 "And the eye of them both were opened. and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."
Also
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said. Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever:"
The reason I say God did not know immediately is because it states in Genesis 3:11 that he had to ask who told them they were naked and had to ask if they ate from the tree.
Honestly - to me it seems like you're fighting basic common sense logic for blind faith. In my opinion - there's nothing wrong with having faith - but not lose common sense or logic for it. That is absolutely obscured to me. Why would God give us brains, the capability to think if we're not supposed to use them in EVERYTHING including our faith??? If for no other reason but to not be deceived by religions and translations that aren't his TRUE word, intentions, or desires for us as humans.
The Bible says that God regularly walked & talked (flesh to flesh , face to face - otherwise a true conversation could not happen) to Adam, Eve, Cain, Able and Noah... then what just stopped having real conversations that could be documented???
Also it says in Genesis 6:2-4 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives all which they chose.
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became might men which were of old, men of renown"
What is the difference between "Sons of God" and men??? And who is God talking about saying "he also is flesh" other than himself - there's no reference to anyone else in any of those verses. And there's the giants in the earth part - where did they come from?? If they were not part of or from God's original creation of man ????
Even aside from that - if there is truely only one all-knowing blah blah said it too many times God - why when he created Adam he said "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness;" Genesis 1:26. Why would he refer to himself as plural through all of that???
Those are the discrepancies that I'm talking about.
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SherylsShado - I have more question for you - do you have any idea and contradicting you keep making yourself sound???????
You say things like there's nothing wrong with other religions & tribes & there will be a mix that go to Heaven and Hell - but at the same time you say that there is only ONE Right way to Heaven. But some of the other religions out there - don't believe the way to Heaven is the same way that you believe to be the ONLY way to Heaven. <<<< Contradiction
Also, you say there's nothing wrong with questioning the Bible and religion - and that it doesn't necessarily mean that someone who does is going to go to Hell... But at the same time you say that ANYONE who does NOT have complete (basically blind) faith in God and devotes their entire life to worshiping Him and not only that - but lives as such, will be sent to Hell. <<<< Contradiction
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A couple of things - after they ate the apple is when their eyes were really opened Because until that point they had not known they were naked. They saw they were naked and they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves aprons. Genesis 3:7
I agree, that is when their "eyes were really opened"...NOT when God's eyes were "opened", He already knew. The Bible says Adam & Eve were "hiding", it doesn't say that God "lost them, couldn't find them, didn't see them or that He didn't know where they were". He called out to them...He KNEW they were there, God doesn't go around "talking to Himself". Where in the Bible do you see verses that support the thought "oh and by the way - it was not until after they ate from the tree that they even knew difference between good and evil & gained free will"??? "----- They were created with free will from the beginning, it was their decision to "use their free will" and make their own choice regardless of what God told them to do that got them into trouble. They already knew the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do because God had told them. They already had the right to use their "free will" because they used it. What changed when they disobeyed God was they were no longer in "perfect harmony" with Him, their sin had changed everything.
GOD is so good, HE created us, gave us HIS breathe - and than gave us free will, we can choose to sin or not to sin???
we can choose hell or choose heaven and we have that choice until we die... HE is so amazing!!!
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good point, but you can't go somewhere that does't exist........
By the way, I hope you cure cancer!!
exactly. I hope you cure cancer too!
They're going to tell you that your ignorant for mocking god, when in reality its more ignorant to believe in something so completely that has yet to be proven. I've also wondered about the good hearted, amazing, wonderful people who do all kinds of good deeds but has never even heard of god or jesus. Makes me sick to think that they supposedly go to hell but all these rapists and murderers that go to prison and supposedly find god and get saved go to heaven. I mean, no one would want to go to a place like that. Think about it though, the devil was in heaven, so why wouldnt other kinds of "evil" be there too? if its real and all.
They claim "god is good" and I just don't see it at all. If there is a god that allows innocent to suffer while demanding love and attention from everyone "or else" then that is not good being in my honest opinion. If the is the kind of "god" to be worshiped then count me out lol!
Exactly.
If there is a god, I'd like to think he's better than what the bible has shown...
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GOD is so good, HE created us, gave us HIS breathe - and than gave us free will, we can choose to sin or not to sin???
we can choose hell or choose heaven and we have that choice until we die... HE is so amazing!!!
Angel- I have a question for you and you only. I've mentioned this question before on this forum and would like to hear your response. If your god is eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipotent, etc. and yet he grants us free will, is that not contradictory? I mean if he knows everything, that means he knows precisely what everyone will do which is not granting us free will to choose anything. Considering that, he knows who is going to hell and who isn't from the get-go since he knows past, present, and future. With this reasoning, nobody chooses anything because it's already set in stone due to him knowing everything. So ultimately there is no free will. Isn't that pretty careless and amazingly evil to let this imperfect world happen? Is it that, or is he not able to do some of these things rendering him imperfect and not all-knowing/powerful/etc.?
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Angelhome: This is another who's previous posts you need to read, to understand what you are dealing with.
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so my eternal punishment or reward is determined by what i believe rather than my actions? so an athiest who saves every child from poverty goes to hell, to be tormented forever, while the child molester who "repented to christ" gets eternal paradise? seriously??? ??? ??? ... what about the native americans - they were good people and they wanted to share this land but instead they were cheated and killed off. did they go to hell?
REALLY?!
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God send no one to hell; we send ourselves when we reject his love gift for our sins, Jesus Christ. God made hell for the devil and his angels, not for man. So, we have free choice. Jesus said "no man comes to the Father (receive eternal life) unless thay come by me (Jesus)" St John 14:6.
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I wonder why people think good works should get them into heaven when they probably wouldn't want their bad works to keep them out. You talk about obviously bad behavior like murdering and raping but God is a completely HOLY and RIGHTEOUS God. Our righteousness compared to Him is likened to filthy rags! IF you don't believe in God and are placing your bet that He doesn't exist then you better understand the nature of Him in case you are wrong.
Thinking a sin is as bad as doing it. A man looking at a woman with lust is just as if he threw her down and had his way with her right then and there. Unforgiveness is a sin, in fact the bible says if you stand before God asking for forgiveness while you yourself hold unforgiveness in your heart...God can't forgive you! If you are going to be honest with yourself, your good acts are not going to outweigh what God considers sin. I don't care if you feed a billion hungry children, God said if you have unforgiveness PERIOD in your heart, he can't forgive you. The OT was lived out and passed down to us to show the need for a Savior and to show that no matter how hard we try we cannot be good enough. When you compare the holiness of God to our good works they are nothing.
Being basically good is not good enough. However, when you embrace the passionate act of Christ which paid the debt for our sin that we alone can never pay. You're good works are accounted to you as righteousness and the sin you cannot avoid is covered by his blood.
And personally, I think that living my life thinking "Have I done enough good today? Will it be good enough for God that I helped that old lady with her groceries even though earlier I cursed out the cashier? Does it even count since I sinned earlier? How much good is good enough? Will God notice that put an extra $5 in the offering even though yesterday I gossiped about so and so??"
And furthermore if you don't believe in God it's because you rejected him. And YES I am a mother but if my child said she hated me, and wanted nothing to do with me, how would I as a loving parent force her kicking and screaming to stay under my roof against her will. People who reject God make a choice and it doesn't matter what excuse they have, because as I said in another thread "An atheist who can't find God is like a thief who can't find a policeman."
That thief can say all they want that they looked long and hard, they can say they DID see a policeman but are convinced he was a hallucination... but the truth is, they don't want to find a policeman because they don't want to pay the consequence for their actions.
Bottom line: Stop asking a hypothetical question about saving the entire world from cancer. Be realistic with your own life. Get out the bible, write down everything God considers a sin. A sin is a sin there is no big or small sin according to God (whether you agree with that or not, if you are going to consider his existence and ask questions about hell, then you are dealing with the God of the bible and that's what the bible says). Now take a day to write down every sin you committed, and everything you consider good...and a good act no matter how good is equal to another good act. Tally it up. I guarantee it won't be good enough.
Oh and don't forget to forgive everyone who has done you wrong cuz no amount of good on your list will matter otherwise. :wave:
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I think so because all of our righteousness are like filthy rags according to the Bible. Its faith that will get us in not our good works. If my daughter cleaned the house, washed my clothes, cleaned my car, took care of the little siblings but yet did not believe in me or obey me, all that good is really worth nothing. Whats the purpose of the good without recognizing the one who made it possible for you to do what you do. Its almost common sense.
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Our righteousness compared to Him is likened to filthy rags! IF you don't believe in God and are placing your bet that He doesn't exist then you better understand the nature of Him in case you are wrong.
Oh man....I could totally jump on this but--
Thinking a sin is as bad as doing it. A man looking at a woman with lust is just as if he threw her down and had his way with her right then and there.
...yeah...that's really screwy guilt trippin' right therrr. Might as well tell a man to never urinate because someway somehow it's bad and every bad thing is of equal value on the "evil-scale".
God send no one to hell; we send ourselves when we reject his love gift for our sins, Jesus Christ. God made hell for the devil and his angels, not for man. So, we have free choice. Jesus said "no man comes to the Father (receive eternal life) unless thay come by me (Jesus)" St John 14:6.
Healthfreedom- read my post to Angel above. I'd like to hear your reasonings on it.
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Thinking a sin is as bad as doing it. A man looking at a woman with lust is just as if he threw her down and had his way with her right then and there. Unforgiveness is a sin,
Wow.....I've always said that I have turned down way more then I have ever had......guess I've had way more then I thought :o/
BTW, I haven't had the chance to say Hi to you since I've been back Mrs. Sherna, I hope you are doing well.
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Wow.....I've always said that I have turned down way more then I have ever had......guess I've had way more then I thought
Brilliant. I lol'd.
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Wow.....I've always said that I have turned down way more then I have ever had......guess I've had way more then I thought :o/
[/quote]
That's a good one. LMAO. And think about all the men and women who've had sex with 1 person while thinking about someone else... is that equivalent to a threesome?? LOL
@ Falconer - thank you for bringing up good points. I like the way you point out the beliefs that everything is so cut and dry, black and white JUST because the Bible says so....
To me - that's not just faith, that's Blind faith.
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Wow.....I've always said that I have turned down way more then I have ever had......guess I've had way more then I thought
Brilliant. I lol'd.
Dittos, I love it! A slap on the hand for you, Walks, ya lust filled man. 8)
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I wonder why people think good works should get them into heaven when they probably wouldn't want their bad works to keep them out. You talk about obviously bad behavior like murdering and raping but God is a completely HOLY and RIGHTEOUS God. Our righteousness compared to Him is likened to filthy rags! IF you don't believe in God and are placing your bet that He doesn't exist then you better understand the nature of Him in case you are wrong.
Thinking a sin is as bad as doing it. A man looking at a woman with lust is just as if he threw her down and had his way with her right then and there. Unforgiveness is a sin, in fact the bible says if you stand before God asking for forgiveness while you yourself hold unforgiveness in your heart...God can't forgive you! If you are going to be honest with yourself, your good acts are not going to outweigh what God considers sin. I don't care if you feed a billion hungry children, God said if you have unforgiveness PERIOD in your heart, he can't forgive you. The OT was lived out and passed down to us to show the need for a Savior and to show that no matter how hard we try we cannot be good enough. When you compare the holiness of God to our good works they are nothing.
Being basically good is not good enough. However, when you embrace the passionate act of Christ which paid the debt for our sin that we alone can never pay. You're good works are accounted to you as righteousness and the sin you cannot avoid is covered by his blood.
And personally, I think that living my life thinking "Have I done enough good today? Will it be good enough for God that I helped that old lady with her groceries even though earlier I cursed out the cashier? Does it even count since I sinned earlier? How much good is good enough? Will God notice that put an extra $5 in the offering even though yesterday I gossiped about so and so??"
And furthermore if you don't believe in God it's because you rejected him. And YES I am a mother but if my child said she hated me, and wanted nothing to do with me, how would I as a loving parent force her kicking and screaming to stay under my roof against her will. People who reject God make a choice and it doesn't matter what excuse they have, because as I said in another thread "An atheist who can't find God is like a thief who can't find a policeman."
That thief can say all they want that they looked long and hard, they can say they DID see a policeman but are convinced he was a hallucination... but the truth is, they don't want to find a policeman because they don't want to pay the consequence for their actions.
Bottom line: Stop asking a hypothetical question about saving the entire world from cancer. Be realistic with your own life. Get out the bible, write down everything God considers a sin. A sin is a sin there is no big or small sin according to God (whether you agree with that or not, if you are going to consider his existence and ask questions about hell, then you are dealing with the God of the bible and that's what the bible says). Now take a day to write down every sin you committed, and everything you consider good...and a good act no matter how good is equal to another good act. Tally it up. I guarantee it won't be good enough.
Oh and don't forget to forgive everyone who has done you wrong cuz no amount of good on your list will matter otherwise. :wave:
:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: What a wonderful discertation. I AGREE 100 % !!! THANK YOU !! :heart: :heart:
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Thinking a sin is as bad as doing it. A man looking at a woman with lust is just as if he threw her down and had his way with her right then and there. Unforgiveness is a sin,
Wow.....I've always said that I have turned down way more then I have ever had......guess I've had way more then I thought :o/
BTW, I haven't had the chance to say Hi to you since I've been back Mrs. Sherna, I hope you are doing well.
LOL, you crack me up! And, yes I'm doing great! Hope you're good yourself ;D
@Falconer & jordandog
The whole point is (502mania/Chase) was coming at an argument from the Christian perspective of hell. And the nature of a God that would send people there. My response is based on the assumption of hell and what the bible has to say about good works. If a person thinks good works is enough to get to heaven, and they are questioning a Christian audience about that subject, then they are going to get Christian answers and that's what I gave him. According to Christians you can't be good enough SO that answered his question.
And Yes, thinking about another person while having sex with your partner would be sin. And I've done it so I have sinned. And I don't expect that just because I volunteer for charities, or donate money to the humane society, or go to church, or any other thing I consider good, is going to make up for all my sin. And that's my point, I need Jesus in order to be good enough for God because I can't be good enough on my own.
You can argue with that and disagree, but I gave an honest and sincere response to a troubling question about hell. Do with it what you will :)
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Thank you Sheryl, that means a lot to me :heart:
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You can argue with that and disagree, but I gave an honest and sincere response to a troubling question about hell. Do with it what you will
Sherene, my finding humor in what Walks said had absolutely nothing to do with what you wrote and was not meant as a put down re your words/thoughts. Honestly, I just found what he wrote funny and I am also familiar with where you were coming from as far as lust and sin. I didn't want there to be any thinking on your part that I was putting down what you stated about yourself. :) It's nice to see you, your calmness and honesty about your own life, back in the forums.
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Wow.....I've always said that I have turned down way more then I have ever had......guess I've had way more then I thought
Brilliant. I lol'd.
Dittos, I love it! A slap on the hand for you, Walks, ya lust filled man. 8)
***in my best Matt LeBlanc impression***
How you doin'?? ;o)
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Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord. Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven. Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.
Sixty years ago the Catholic nuns taught us that as long as you believe in God & no matter what you call Him; Jesus, Buddha, or Allah or whether you're Jewish, Catholic, or Baptist or Asian, Black, White, or Indian and you do not break any of the Ten Commandments you will go to heaven. This is what I believe. :angel11:
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Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord. Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven. Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.
Sixty years ago the Catholic nuns taught us that as long as you believe in God & no matter what you call Him; Jesus, Buddha, or Allah or whether you're Jewish, Catholic, or Baptist or Asian, Black, White, or Indian and you do not break any of the Ten Commandments you will go to heaven. This is what I believe. :angel11:
Have you ever broken any of the 10 commandments Beverly?
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You can argue with that and disagree, but I gave an honest and sincere response to a troubling question about hell. Do with it what you will
Sherene, my finding humor in what Walks said had absolutely nothing to do with what you wrote and was not meant as a put down re your words/thoughts. Honestly, I just found what he wrote funny and I am also familiar with where you were coming from as far as lust and sin. I didn't want there to be any thinking on your part that I was putting down what you stated about yourself. :) It's nice to see you, your calmness and honesty about your own life, back in the forums.
Thanks for letting me know that. Sometimes in D&D one tends to get on the offensive :)
Sorry I meant defensive ;)
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You can argue with that and disagree, but I gave an honest and sincere response to a troubling question about hell. Do with it what you will
Sherene, my finding humor in what Walks said had absolutely nothing to do with what you wrote and was not meant as a put down re your words/thoughts. Honestly, I just found what he wrote funny and I am also familiar with where you were coming from as far as lust and sin. I didn't want there to be any thinking on your part that I was putting down what you stated about yourself. :) It's nice to see you, your calmness and honesty about your own life, back in the forums.
Thanks for letting me know that. Sometimes in D&D one tends to get on the offensive :)
Sorry I meant defensive ;)
I am really glad you saw that post from me. As soon as I saw what you had written, I knew I had to reply and clarify my post. I didn't want you feeling attacked.
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I am a christian and believe that only those who accept Christ as their Savior will go to heaven. I hope you do find a cure for cancer. Believing in Christ is our choice. God gave all humans the power of choice. If you believe that you can go to heaven without accepting Christ that is your choice. I will remember you in pray though, and that is my choice. God does not want anyone to go to hell but that is our power of choice.
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I am a christian and believe that only those who accept Christ as their Savior will go to heaven. I hope you do find a cure for cancer. Believing in Christ is our choice. God gave all humans the power of choice. If you believe that you can go to heaven without accepting Christ that is your choice. I will remember you in pray though, and that is my choice. God does not want anyone to go to hell but that is our power of choice.
:thumbsup:
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Can Our Own Good Deeds Get Us to Heaven?
~Jack Graham
One thing I’ve always loved is sitting back and watching a good football game. And I especially love watching games where it’s raining and the field looks like a pigsty. You can always tell who gets the most playing time by looking at whose uniform is the muddiest!
But imagine if one of those players, caked in mud, so dirty you can’t even see the numbers on his jersey, walked off the field without even changing and tried to get a table at a nice steakhouse. Now, I don’t think they’d let him in, do you? No, he’d be thrown out!
And apart from Christ, that’s a small glimpse of how we would appear before God. If we stand in his presence in our own righteousness, we too will be thrown out. I wouldn’t trust the best 10 minutes I’ve ever lived to get me into heaven because my good works are not enough!
But that’s why there’s grace. The Bible says that when we trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, our old garments are taken off and we are given new robes of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10).
So when you put on God’s garment of salvation and the robe of righteousness by trusting in Christ, you will receive the righteousness of Jesus and will be faultless when you stand before the Father’s throne.
Taken from “Removing the Dirty Garments and Putting on God’s Righteousness” by Power Point Ministries (used by permission).
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Just remember this: We will ALL stand before the Judgment Seat and give an account for our lives. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before His Father!!
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Or maybe they'll fall under Acts 24:15 which reads ; 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
I guess righteous people go to hell as well according to this verse :P
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Can Our Own Good Deeds Get Us to Heaven?
~Jack Graham
One thing I’ve always loved is sitting back and watching a good football game. And I especially love watching games where it’s raining and the field looks like a pigsty. You can always tell who gets the most playing time by looking at whose uniform is the muddiest!
But imagine if one of those players, caked in mud, so dirty you can’t even see the numbers on his jersey, walked off the field without even changing and tried to get a table at a nice steakhouse. Now, I don’t think they’d let him in, do you? No, he’d be thrown out!
And apart from Christ, that’s a small glimpse of how we would appear before God. If we stand in his presence in our own righteousness, we too will be thrown out. I wouldn’t trust the best 10 minutes I’ve ever lived to get me into heaven because my good works are not enough!
But that’s why there’s grace. The Bible says that when we trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, our old garments are taken off and we are given new robes of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10).
So when you put on God’s garment of salvation and the robe of righteousness by trusting in Christ, you will receive the righteousness of Jesus and will be faultless when you stand before the Father’s throne.
Taken from “Removing the Dirty Garments and Putting on God’s Righteousness” by Power Point Ministries (used by permission).
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Just remember this: We will ALL stand before the Judgment Seat and give an account for our lives. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before His Father!!
You are absolutely right! :)
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Or maybe they'll fall under Acts 24:15 which reads ; 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
I guess righteous people go to hell as well according to this verse :P
2 Corinthians 5:10 says, (King James Bible)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad."
This explains more about the Judgment Seat of Christ: http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html
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Or maybe they'll fall under Acts 24:15 which reads ; 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
I guess righteous people go to hell as well according to this verse :P
2 Corinthians 5:10 says, (King James Bible)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad."
This explains more about the Judgment Seat of Christ: http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html
First of all.....IceKittyNM, what a great post, and I'm going to use it if you don't mind.
Jcribb, you are exactly correct. The "Judgement Seat of Christ" is for the Christians, as the 'Great White Throne Judgement", is for the unbelievers, i.e. those not redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Everyone will stand at a judgement...but which one?
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Or maybe they'll fall under Acts 24:15 which reads ; 15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
I guess righteous people go to hell as well according to this verse :P
2 Corinthians 5:10 says, (King James Bible)
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad."
This explains more about the Judgment Seat of Christ: http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html
With all due respect the link you gave me had nothing to do with unrighteous people being resurrected though the verse you gave me might. It's important to note that God and Jesus is not the only ones who will judge people(1 Corinthians 6:1-3)
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I didn't read this whole post but I find it wrong and ironic that priests who rape or molest little boys will still go to this heaven...really?!?! Just because they believe in God?! Sometimes I think believing in Christ is just an excuse to "always be forgiven". Btw, not everything in Bible is pretty.. you have to weed through it to get to "good stuff". Just saying. ;)
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I didn't read this whole post but I find it wrong and ironic that priests who rape or molest little boys will still go to this heaven...really?!?! Just because they believe in God?! Sometimes I think believing in Christ is just an excuse to "always be forgiven". Btw, not everything in Bible is pretty.. you have to weed through it to get to "good stuff". Just saying. ;)
You are so right
Jude 4 reads My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.
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all you need is :heart:
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Can Our Own Good Deeds Get Us to Heaven?
~Jack Graham
One thing I’ve always loved is sitting back and watching a good football game. And I especially love watching games where it’s raining and the field looks like a pigsty. You can always tell who gets the most playing time by looking at whose uniform is the muddiest!
But imagine if one of those players, caked in mud, so dirty you can’t even see the numbers on his jersey, walked off the field without even changing and tried to get a table at a nice steakhouse. Now, I don’t think they’d let him in, do you? No, he’d be thrown out!
And apart from Christ, that’s a small glimpse of how we would appear before God. If we stand in his presence in our own righteousness, we too will be thrown out. I wouldn’t trust the best 10 minutes I’ve ever lived to get me into heaven because my good works are not enough!
But that’s why there’s grace. The Bible says that when we trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, our old garments are taken off and we are given new robes of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10).
So when you put on God’s garment of salvation and the robe of righteousness by trusting in Christ, you will receive the righteousness of Jesus and will be faultless when you stand before the Father’s throne.
Taken from “Removing the Dirty Garments and Putting on God’s Righteousness” by Power Point Ministries (used by permission).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Just remember this: We will ALL stand before the Judgment Seat and give an account for our lives. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before His Father!!
Great way to put it I had not read that, so it was well said. Hope you made some inroads with the blind.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
yes because it is not by our works, or deeds that gets us to heaven , but by the grace of God, who gave us His Son the perfect sacrifice for all of man's sins so that we may be forgiven, so that we can go home to live with Him the rest of our days
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Can Our Own Good Deeds Get Us to Heaven?
~Jack Graham
One thing I’ve always loved is sitting back and watching a good football game. And I especially love watching games where it’s raining and the field looks like a pigsty. You can always tell who gets the most playing time by looking at whose uniform is the muddiest!
But imagine if one of those players, caked in mud, so dirty you can’t even see the numbers on his jersey, walked off the field without even changing and tried to get a table at a nice steakhouse. Now, I don’t think they’d let him in, do you? No, he’d be thrown out!
And apart from Christ, that’s a small glimpse of how we would appear before God. If we stand in his presence in our own righteousness, we too will be thrown out. I wouldn’t trust the best 10 minutes I’ve ever lived to get me into heaven because my good works are not enough!
But that’s why there’s grace. The Bible says that when we trust in Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, our old garments are taken off and we are given new robes of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10).
So when you put on God’s garment of salvation and the robe of righteousness by trusting in Christ, you will receive the righteousness of Jesus and will be faultless when you stand before the Father’s throne.
Taken from “Removing the Dirty Garments and Putting on God’s Righteousness” by Power Point Ministries (used by permission).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Just remember this: We will ALL stand before the Judgment Seat and give an account for our lives. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before His Father!!
Well said
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I didn't read this whole post but I find it wrong and ironic that priests who rape or molest little boys will still go to this heaven...really?!?! Just because they believe in God?! Sometimes I think believing in Christ is just an excuse to "always be forgiven". Btw, not everything in Bible is pretty.. you have to weed through it to get to "good stuff". Just saying. ;)
You are so right
Jude 4 reads My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.
I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.
The words "I believe" are not a free pass to live the life of a deviant and still go to heaven.
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I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.
Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here either-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, has a bad family life, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone but him/herself?
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I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.
Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here either-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, has a bad family life, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone but him/herself?
Again this person will probably fall under Acts 24:15, technically where all screwed up mentally even if we deny it.
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I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.
Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone else but him/herself?
This is a very emotionally charged and upsetting issue, so I want to give a completely honest answer in how I believe and why. But understanding you don't have my beliefs, you will not agree with me obviously. So I'm taking you at your word that you are not looking to debate my answer. Because my answer is based on my faith in a God that you don't believe in. Keep that in mind, while you read my response.
Firstly, I start with a premise that the spiritual things of this world are completely real. I believe that satan uses people to kill steal and destroy every good thing in a persons life. He can use anybody, christians, wiccans, muslims it doesn't matter.
So I believe that a crazed pedophile who beats and rapes an 8 year old and later turns to Christ for help, if in his heart he hates what he did and wants forgiveness he will get it. Because the bible doesn't say that Jesus died for only certain sins. The 8 year old has suffered a traumatic experience, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually. But I believe satan will use that experience to destroy the rest of that 8 year olds life, IF the 8 year old as he/she grows up lets him. Satan could use what the rapist did to guilt the rapist and shame him for the rest of his life, causing depression and low self worth which could lead to more rapes and other horrible acts. Whereas when he turns to Christ he is made a new person and he begins to hate what God hates and love what God loves. He is a new person.
The 8 year old as an adult has the opportunity to let God heal his hurts. God will use other people to show his love to this hurting person and he/she makes a choice to live in bitterness and drink his life away or let God love on him/her and change his/her life. It's not the 8 year olds fault of course but satan had a plan to ruin more than one life with such an act. And each individual makes a choice of what path to take and who to serve. The bible says you either serve God or satan. If you aren't living for God, satan is your master. If the child ends up rejecting God later in his life, he made a choice.
I have said before, I have been raped. And it took a long time before I realized that hating that person and letting that wound never heal was causing other areas of my life to suffer and that's exactly what satan intended. I don't know whether the person who raped me regrets what he did but because I forgave him and because I prayed that God would save him and change his life...I was able to move on and it doesn't even phase me to talk about it anymore. I don't hate the person, I pity him and hope that he found God. The hurt is completely gone. I made a choice. There are trials that come in peoples life and though not everything that comes their way is caused by them, they still have a choice to make with what to do with it.
My husband cheated on me while I was pregnant and I thought my world was crumbling to be betrayed in such a way. I already had one failed marriage from a cheating husband and here it was happening all over again. BUT somebody told me, take the face off the person and realize that there is a spirit using them to kill steal and destroy my family. And I went home and I looked at my husband and I looked at my babies and I decided I wasn't going to let that happen. So I prayed for the girl who my husband cheated on me with. And I was able to forgive her, and not only that but I wish I knew where she was today because I want to hug her and tell her that I forgive her and I want to tell her about a God who loves her so much that she doesn't need to find solace and validation in married men! I forgave my husband and our marriage has only gotten better!!
I could have let that pain and hurt destroy something precious but I didn't. Through knowing how much God has forgiven me of my horrible deeds and how much he loves me I could forgive and love other people. It took some effort on my part, to put down my "flesh" and sinful nature to want revenge and to let that all build up but I made a choice and I'm the better for it.
This answer was long and I wanted to give examples of my own traumatic experiences because it helps you to understand that I'm not being unsympathetic to the person in your scenario. I know you don't believe in my God, but I do and thus the basis for my answer.
I am really hoping that you are not going to call me delusional at this point because I decided to give a vulnerable answer so that I could be personal with you. Please don't abuse that. I am at your mercy.
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I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.
Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone else but him/herself?
This is a very emotionally charged and upsetting issue, so I want to give a completely honest answer in how I believe and why. But understanding you don't have my beliefs, you will not agree with me obviously. So I'm taking you at your word that you are not looking to debate my answer. Because my answer is based on my faith in a God that you don't believe in. Keep that in mind, while you read my response.
Firstly, I start with a premise that the spiritual things of this world are completely real. I believe that satan uses people to kill steal and destroy every good thing in a persons life. He can use anybody, christians, wiccans, muslims it doesn't matter.
So I believe that a crazed pedophile who beats and rapes an 8 year old and later turns to Christ for help, if in his heart he hates what he did and wants forgiveness he will get it. Because the bible doesn't say that Jesus died for only certain sins. The 8 year old has suffered a traumatic experience, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually. But I believe satan will use that experience to destroy the rest of that 8 year olds life, IF the 8 year old as he/she grows up lets him. Satan could use what the rapist did to guilt the rapist and shame him for the rest of his life, causing depression and low self worth which could lead to more rapes and other horrible acts. Whereas when he turns to Christ he is made a new person and he begins to hate what God hates and love what God loves. He is a new person.
The 8 year old as an adult has the opportunity to let God heal his hurts. God will use other people to show his love to this hurting person and he/she makes a choice to live in bitterness and drink his life away or let God love on him/her and change his/her life. It's not the 8 year olds fault of course but satan had a plan to ruin more than one life with such an act. And each individual makes a choice of what path to take and who to serve. The bible says you either serve God or satan. If you aren't living for God, satan is your master. If the child ends up rejecting God later in his life, he made a choice.
I have said before, I have been raped. And it took a long time before I realized that hating that person and letting that wound never heal was causing other areas of my life to suffer and that's exactly what satan intended. I don't know whether the person who raped me regrets what he did but because I forgave him and because I prayed that God would save him and change his life...I was able to move on and it doesn't even phase me to talk about it anymore. I don't hate the person, I pity him and hope that he found God. The hurt is completely gone. I made a choice. There are trials that come in peoples life and though not everything that comes their way is caused by them, they still have a choice to make with what to do with it.
My husband cheated on me while I was pregnant and I thought my world was crumbling to be betrayed in such a way. I already had one failed marriage from a cheating husband and here it was happening all over again. BUT somebody told me, take the face off the person and realize that there is a spirit using them to kill steal and destroy my family. And I went home and I looked at my husband and I looked at my babies and I decided I wasn't going to let that happen. So I prayed for the girl who my husband cheated on me with. And I was able to forgive her, and not only that but I wish I knew where she was today because I want to hug her and tell her that I forgive her and I want to tell her about a God who loves her so much that she doesn't need to find solace and validation in married men! I forgave my husband and our marriage has only gotten better!!
I could have let that pain and hurt destroy something precious but I didn't. Through knowing how much God has forgiven me of my horrible deeds and how much he loves me I could forgive and love other people. It took some effort on my part, to put down my "flesh" and sinful nature to want revenge and to let that all build up but I made a choice and I'm the better for it.
This answer was long and I wanted to give examples of my own traumatic experiences because it helps you to understand that I'm not being unsympathetic to the person in your scenario. I know you don't believe in my God, but I do and thus the basis for my answer.
I am really hoping that you are not going to call me delusional at this point because I decided to give a vulnerable answer so that I could be personal with you. Please don't abuse that. I am at your mercy.
@Sherna.....
What a powerful testimony you have, and a response that is obviously full of God's wisdom!!! :thumbsup:
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I think people seem to forget that believing in God comes with a responsibility to change your life and turn away from sin. Can a rapist go to heaven? I think so but only if he repents of that behavior, if he continues to engage in such acts he is willfully rejecting God. Just because he believes in God he is still rejecting him. And I don't believe in every case of death bed conversion and repentance either. It depends on the sincerity of the person pleading with God for their salvation. If it just comes from a fear of hell instead of a love for God it doesn't matter.
Question. I'm sure you've answered this in the past, but I can't remember. And I'm not trying to get in a debate here-- I just want your .02. If a crazed pedophile kidnaps, beats and rapes an 8 year old and then becomes a believer and begs for forgiveness, will he go to heaven? What if that 8 year old grows up, is all majorly f'd up mentally (can't hold a job, relationship, etc.), finds absolutely no comfort in religious dogma or spiritual ideas and speaks against them, drinks constantly, and ends up dying due to drinking-- will that person go to heaven even if he/she did not damage anyone else but him/herself?
This is a very emotionally charged and upsetting issue, so I want to give a completely honest answer in how I believe and why. But understanding you don't have my beliefs, you will not agree with me obviously. So I'm taking you at your word that you are not looking to debate my answer. Because my answer is based on my faith in a God that you don't believe in. Keep that in mind, while you read my response.
Firstly, I start with a premise that the spiritual things of this world are completely real. I believe that satan uses people to kill steal and destroy every good thing in a persons life. He can use anybody, christians, wiccans, muslims it doesn't matter.
So I believe that a crazed pedophile who beats and rapes an 8 year old and later turns to Christ for help, if in his heart he hates what he did and wants forgiveness he will get it. Because the bible doesn't say that Jesus died for only certain sins. The 8 year old has suffered a traumatic experience, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually. But I believe satan will use that experience to destroy the rest of that 8 year olds life, IF the 8 year old as he/she grows up lets him. Satan could use what the rapist did to guilt the rapist and shame him for the rest of his life, causing depression and low self worth which could lead to more rapes and other horrible acts. Whereas when he turns to Christ he is made a new person and he begins to hate what God hates and love what God loves. He is a new person.
The 8 year old as an adult has the opportunity to let God heal his hurts. God will use other people to show his love to this hurting person and he/she makes a choice to live in bitterness and drink his life away or let God love on him/her and change his/her life. It's not the 8 year olds fault of course but satan had a plan to ruin more than one life with such an act. And each individual makes a choice of what path to take and who to serve. The bible says you either serve God or satan. If you aren't living for God, satan is your master. If the child ends up rejecting God later in his life, he made a choice.
I have said before, I have been raped. And it took a long time before I realized that hating that person and letting that wound never heal was causing other areas of my life to suffer and that's exactly what satan intended. I don't know whether the person who raped me regrets what he did but because I forgave him and because I prayed that God would save him and change his life...I was able to move on and it doesn't even phase me to talk about it anymore. I don't hate the person, I pity him and hope that he found God. The hurt is completely gone. I made a choice. There are trials that come in peoples life and though not everything that comes their way is caused by them, they still have a choice to make with what to do with it.
My husband cheated on me while I was pregnant and I thought my world was crumbling to be betrayed in such a way. I already had one failed marriage from a cheating husband and here it was happening all over again. BUT somebody told me, take the face off the person and realize that there is a spirit using them to kill steal and destroy my family. And I went home and I looked at my husband and I looked at my babies and I decided I wasn't going to let that happen. So I prayed for the girl who my husband cheated on me with. And I was able to forgive her, and not only that but I wish I knew where she was today because I want to hug her and tell her that I forgive her and I want to tell her about a God who loves her so much that she doesn't need to find solace and validation in married men! I forgave my husband and our marriage has only gotten better!!
I could have let that pain and hurt destroy something precious but I didn't. Through knowing how much God has forgiven me of my horrible deeds and how much he loves me I could forgive and love other people. It took some effort on my part, to put down my "flesh" and sinful nature to want revenge and to let that all build up but I made a choice and I'm the better for it.
This answer was long and I wanted to give examples of my own traumatic experiences because it helps you to understand that I'm not being unsympathetic to the person in your scenario. I know you don't believe in my God, but I do and thus the basis for my answer.
I am really hoping that you are not going to call me delusional at this point because I decided to give a vulnerable answer so that I could be personal with you. Please don't abuse that. I am at your mercy.
Sherene, your answer is very thoughtful, and I think you handled the question very well. Like IceKitty said, you have a powerful testimony. It's something that you did not have to share, but did because of your heart.
I had a similar experience with a family member. Going through Christian counseling showed me how important it was to forgive that person, which in turn helped me to achieve the victory of that situation. If I didn't have the Lord guiding me through it with the help of certain people, I hate to think where I would be today. Reading your post has helped to remind me of how fortunate I was to have the Lord in my life. Before the person died, he did ask the Lord in his heart and asked for my forgiveness. Not only me, but many people throughout the years that he had hurt in one way or another. Once he had word back that everyone living had accepted his apology, he died.
Thank you again, for sharing it as part of your answer.
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if god is truly real,then tell me who created him/her. Christianity is just another form of a business and they get you to fear something that is not real so you can talk to yourself(praying out loud) and go to the place of business(church) and give the business owner a percentage of your income(tithes) so the owner can make a living at it,some churches make quite a good income at that.
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if god is truly real,then tell me who created him/her. Christianity is just another form of a business and they get you to fear something that is not real so you can talk to yourself(praying out loud) and go to the place of business(church) and give the business owner a percentage of your income(tithes) so the owner can make a living at it,some churches make quite a good income at that.
Great question. It's hard to understand but God was not created by another God, etc. John 1:1-2 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God." (I just posted this answer to a very similar question in another thread, so it was fresh on my mind.)
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god just didn't apear that's why it gets hard for me to believe in something that is not or can not be seen
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Thanks for sharing, Sherna. Wow, I did not know that (or I must have forgotten from when you told us a long time ago). That's really awful what you've been through. :angry7: If I would have known this, I would have never gotten into any heated debates here knowing certain peoples backgrounds on the subject. And no, I don't think you are delusional (in this sense being discussed atleast! lol). I understand the situation now and I must say you have quite a noble amount of courage to both admit this and to forgive those people. Definitely something a man would have difficulty doing! I am envious of that. But again, thanks for sharing. I'm glad you've found peace within others' atrocious behavior. Very good and informative post.
Christianity is just another form of a business and they get you to fear something that is not real so you can talk to yourself(praying out loud) and go to the place of business(church) and give the business owner a percentage of your income(tithes) so the owner can make a living at it,some churches make quite a good income at that.
Scientology really brought this idea out into the open. I see this basic reasoning used a lot, and I agree.
god just didn't apear that's why it gets hard for me to believe in something that is not or can not be seen
A sound perspective on the thread topic, Mr. Huffman. If you wouldn't mind, may I ask of your background pertaining to this subject?
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Thanks for sharing, Sherna. Wow, I did not know that (or I must have forgotten from when you told us a long time ago). That's really awful what you've been through. angry7 If I would have known this, I would have never gotten into any heated debates here knowing certain peoples backgrounds on the subject. And no, I don't think you are delusional (in this sense being discussed atleast! lol). I understand the situation now and I must say you have quite a noble amount of courage to both admit this and to forgive those people. Definitely something a man would have difficulty doing! I am envious of that. But again, thanks for sharing. I'm glad you've found peace within others' atrocious behavior. Very good and informative post.
Thank you for allowing me to be transparent with you. And to be honest I really wouldn't change those things that happened to me. The things that I have been through shaped who I am. And because I went through those things, when a person comes to me who was raped and beaten when they were 8 years old, I can comfort them from a place that I can relate to and sympathize with. And hopefully through my testimony they realize they don't have to drink themselves into an early grave but can find peace and a new hope, just like I did. ;)
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It's always been pretty funny to me how "god's wisdom" and religious redemption automatically shows up when you have screwed up royaly!!!!! :thumbsup:
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:) Here's what I believe; I believe that there is a Creator and that we are not given just what we can handle but more so we learn/or not how to get through the bad times. I believe that those whom bring great suffering upon others will and do pay a price either during their life here on earth and/or after death. I believe that "religion" is political and that the catholic church should not be above the law in matters of abuse towards children. All humans should be allowed to believe in what they will - God or no. Bottom line - you either believe or you don't. :peace: :wave:
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@ Sherna - That was a very deep hearted response you posted. And it does serve a very good point. It is important to forgive those who do you wrong - even for those who do not believe in God, because even if they don't believe they shouldn't let something fester & bring them and their lives down. Especially something like those incidents is difficult to "get over" or get passed. But the important thing is for a person's own conscience and ability to rise above such tribulations - it is necessary to forgive that person. Just like with your husband - sometimes something stronger and better than before can come from the worst situations.
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Dbaxley, you are right. Belief in God or not, it's important to forgive the people that do you wrong. And it's not even for them it's for you, unforgiveness is like poison. However, for me personally I have found that until I put God in the equation I just can't do it. Especially in cases like what I mentioned; those are very hurtful and life altering things that happened to me and things that happen ALL the time unfortunately to many many people. It's hard to recover from and I couldn't have done it without support from people who love me and a God who forgave me so that I could forgive them. If anyone can do it without God, more power to them, but I couldn't do it lol.
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Salvation is not based on our own good works. It is a gift from God based on our faith in Jesus Christ, his son. Ephesians 2:8 - 9. Yes, if you or I did all thaose wonderful works, helping multitudes, but if we reject Jesus Christ, we will spend eternity in hell. That's the biblical answer.
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so according to the christian belief, god judges you based on what you believe rather than what your actions in life are??
sidenote. you guys keep saying "thinkin a sin is just as bad as doing it". well that means that thinking a good deed is just as good as doing it. that's why that part makes no sense to me. also, you cant say the degree of a sin dosent matter. saying there are none that are worse than others, that their all just as bad, is illogical in my eye. what if the legal system was that way, what if you got a life sentence for whatever you did. whether it be littering or murder. that makes no sense.
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Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life. Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God. If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart. But you must acknowledge his sovereignty in your life. Evil happens also but we all have choices freely to obey. There is no one, not one, who is good enough to get into heaven. Only Jesus was good enough and he was the Son of God. You have to go through him, he speaks for you, and says "this one is with me Father".
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Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life. Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God. If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart.
so if i were a mass murderer and child molester, would the non-glory go to god for putting that "wiring" and desire in my heart?
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also, dosent that "god putting things into your heart and mind" thing poke a huge hole in the "free will" theory?
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also, dosent that "god putting things into your heart and mind" thing poke a huge hole in the "free will" theory?
So does the whole "all-knowing" aspect of this god, does it not?
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so according to the christian belief, god judges you based on what you believe rather than what your actions in life are??
sidenote. you guys keep saying "thinkin a sin is just as bad as doing it". well that means that thinking a good deed is just as good as doing it. that's why that part makes no sense to me. also, you cant say the degree of a sin dosent matter. saying there are none that are worse than others, that their all just as bad, is illogical in my eye. what if the legal system was that way, what if you got a life sentence for whatever you did. whether it be littering or murder. that makes no sense.
I can say a degree of sin doesn't matter because like I said, God is purely and completely Holy. Therefore there is no degrees of holiness to the Creator, so a sin of stealing is a complete offense to a completely holy God. God doesn't measure sin the way men do. Mens' views on morality are subjective, one man may see stealing as wrong no matter what, another may justify theft by saying that the people he stole from deserve it. It doesn't work that way with God. Therefore sin is sin. You can think it's illogical but you are asking Christians why they believe what they believe so they will use the bible to explain it because that's what we base our beliefs in.
Also the bible says that faith without works is dead (James 2:20). Men are not justified by works they are justified by faith however a person who has faith will show evidence of it by their works. "By their fruits you shall know them" Mat 7:16
It is a Christians responsibility to be a living example of God's love. We are his hands, feet, eyes, ears, and mouth and we are expected to use our lives as a witness, therefore good works are important in a Christians life, it's just that good works alone will not save you.
God judges the heart of men. What is the heart of men? The mind basically, our self that only we and God can know. If in your heart you want to kill somebody or rape somebody or hurt anybody in anyway, God sees that and judges that. If you desire good things towards people, and your heart is focused on God then you will act on those things and it will be second nature. So there is no need for a provision to "think a good act and it's as good as doing it".
also, dosent that "god putting things into your heart and mind" thing poke a huge hole in the "free will" theory?
No and I'll give you an example. A year or so ago I was driving home and I live in a big city so it is common place to have people pan handling at highway intersections and various places. Some of them are scammers some of them are not you never really can tell. So sometimes I give them my change or (once I gave a man my kolaches I had just bought) other times I ignore them.
Well this one particular time I drove past a man who had a sign that he was hungry. I got a few feet down and I felt a VERY strong urge to go back and help him. I felt that God wanted me to take him and get him something to eat....I pulled over on the side of the road and struggled internally with this decision for nearly 10 mins. I had heard enough stories about women being murdered by men they picked up on the side of the road and I was afraid. So I ignored that strong urge and went home without helping him. I did not trust God at that point. And even though he "put it in my heart" to help that man, I "told" him no with my actions of disobedience.
So, God put it in my heart, I had a choice to listen to him or not. God knew the choice I would make but he did not force what he wanted on me. Therefore, nothing, including him being "all - knowing" has violated my free will.
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Well this one particular time I drove past a man who had a sign that he was hungry. I got a few feet down and I felt a VERY strong urge to go back and help him. I felt that God wanted me to take him and get him something to eat....I pulled over on the side of the road and struggled internally with this decision for nearly 10 mins. I had heard enough stories about women being murdered by men they picked up on the side of the road and I was afraid. So I ignored that strong urge and went home without helping him. I did not trust God at that point. And even though he "put it in my heart" to help that man, I "told" him no with my actions of disobedience.
So, God put it in my heart, I had a choice to listen to him or not. God knew the choice I would make but he did not force what he wanted on me. Therefore, nothing, including him being "all - knowing" has violated my free will.
Sounds like you did the logical thing rather than going with your heart on this one. And who could blame you? You have a husband and kids, right? You might not even be here if you had tried to help. g4u! But this is still not an argument for free will (especially with what I stated in my last post). You don't know for certain that your god did that. To us, it obvious you just did the smart thing and you're just placing the pat-on-the-back on your god rather than yourself. I could go on but I'm kinda tired here so I'll end with this- glad you're alive. If you are in a hospitable mood and end up in the same situation, bring some mace and have it ready. And only give hobos food. Not money. I have my own hobo stories too >:(
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Well this one particular time I drove past a man who had a sign that he was hungry. I got a few feet down and I felt a VERY strong urge to go back and help him. I felt that God wanted me to take him and get him something to eat....I pulled over on the side of the road and struggled internally with this decision for nearly 10 mins. I had heard enough stories about women being murdered by men they picked up on the side of the road and I was afraid. So I ignored that strong urge and went home without helping him. I did not trust God at that point. And even though he "put it in my heart" to help that man, I "told" him no with my actions of disobedience.
So, God put it in my heart, I had a choice to listen to him or not. God knew the choice I would make but he did not force what he wanted on me. Therefore, nothing, including him being "all - knowing" has violated my free will.
Sounds like you did the logical thing rather than going with your heart on this one. And who could blame you? You have a husband and kids, right? You might not even be here if you had tried to help. g4u! But this is still not an argument for free will (especially with what I stated in my last post). You don't know for certain that your god did that. To us, it obvious you just did the smart thing and you're just placing the pat-on-the-back on your god rather than yourself. I could go on but I'm kinda tired here so I'll end with this- glad you're alive. If you are in a hospitable mood and end up in the same situation, bring some mace and have it ready. And only give hobos food. Not money. I have my own hobo stories too >:(
Because I believe in God I believe I can know when it's God wanting me to do something and when it's just me. If God wanted me to go back and help that man (which is what I believe) then nothing would have happened to me. Not every pan handler is a murderer. So I'm not giving my God a pat on the back, I'm saying that he wanted me to do something (help the man) and I didn't do it. The very strong urge I had for no particular reason, I believe, was God "putting it in my heart". And by not following that urge I told God no. Therefore making a free will choice. So I don't believe I did the smart thing, I believe I disobeyed and missed a wonderful opportunity to help somebody who was hurting.
To you, because you don't believe in my God, you will not attribute my urge to him. But the argument is "isn't God putting things in your heart a violation of free will". Me, believing that God wanted me to help that man, thus my sudden urge to turn around and do so, and effectively denying that urge shows that it does not violate free will for God to put things on someones heart.
Your last post had to do with the all knowing issue. I state again, though probably to no avail, that knowing is not causing. I have been through this particular argument before and this isn't' the thread to go into it again. But that's as plain as I can put it. Knowing an event will take place is not the same as causing it to happen. So I don't believe that God being all knowing violates free will in any way.
I could go on but I'm kinda tired here so I'll end with this- glad you're alive
Thank you very much I'm glad to be here ;) :heart:
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Me, believing that God wanted me to help that man, thus my sudden urge to turn around and do so, and effectively denying that urge shows that it does not violate free will for God to put things on someones heart.
Yeah I know what you're trying to say. It's just an appeal to emotion, but I won't go into that part. From my view- obviously not all hobos are crazy, but considering what the environment was like and how you were feeling and that the idea came into your head that this could be dangerous, you just made a smart choice. Religious beliefs aside, you were wise to not put yourself in any danger not only for the sake of yourself but for those that you care about and the ones that return the favor. I've been there plenty of times myself, but I don't blame it on some deity speaking in my head. I blame curiosity, past experiences, warnings from others, common sense, etc. during the decision making.
Knowing an event will take place is not the same as causing it to happen. So I don't believe that God being all knowing violates free will in any way.
I keep seeing these ideas for the argument try to explain things while not remaining at the base of it. You have this deity that created the universe and knows everything. Think about that word. This god therefore knows the cause and effect of everything already and ultimately knows what path one will take beginning-to-end. There's no choice in any matter at all when put on that mantle. That aspect alone eliminates free will. On human terms, cause has nothing going for it here when put against a being who already knows everything.
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I've been there plenty of times myself, but I don't blame it on some deity speaking in my head
I know that you would not attribute to God what I do because you don't believe in him. But that's not the argument I'm dealing with. Assume God does exist for just a moment, IF God indeed put it in my heart to help the hobo, it did not violate my free will because I did not do what he put in my heart to do.
This god therefore knows the cause and effect of everything already and ultimately knows what path one will take beginning-to-end.
How does him knowing the cause and effect of everything take away a person's choice? God knew he would put it in my heart to help that man, he knew I would sit in my car for 10 mins and end up not helping him. How does him knowing any of that, effectively remove my choice to have helped the man?
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know that you would not attribute to God what I do because you don't believe in him. But that's not the argument I'm dealing with. Assume God does exist for just a moment, IF God indeed put it in my heart to help the hobo, it did not violate my free will because I did not do what he put in my heart to do.
All I'm trying to state here is this is an unjustified debate due to an unknown variable and it falls on a fallacy. But you attribute the decision with god? Whateva. That's coo.
How does him knowing the cause and effect of everything take away a person's choice? God knew he would put it in my heart to help that man, he knew I would sit in my car for 10 mins and end up not helping him. How does him knowing any of that, effectively remove my choice to have helped the man?
Because he knew what choice you'd make beforehand- him being all-knowing prevents a free will choice because it was predetermined. What I'm statng here is it's just an illusion of choice with this specific god. Not actual choice. Ultimately any explanation to this conundrum leads to fatalism. An example of what's going on here is you're convinced that a book infront of us is floating whereas I can see the coffee table it's sitting on.
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Because he knew what choice you'd make beforehand- him being all-knowing prevents a free will choice because it was predetermined.
Falconer....
"Because He knew": does not mean "He made (forced)"
"what choice you'd make beforehand": she had a choice to make and she made it....God did not force her to do things HIS way.....and THAT IS FREE WILL!!
"him being all-knowing prevents a free will choice because it was predetermined": God does know what choices we will make before we make them, but He does not force HIS will on us...if He did, we would all be puppets. Just because He knows something beforehand doesn't mean our choices have suddenly disappeared!
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All I'm trying to state here is this is an unjustified debate due to an unknown variable and it falls on a fallacy.
Then the question 502 asked can't be answered by a Christian. Since no one can say with proof that God put anything in their heart, then no one can answer his question from the belief standpoint. Which, I think is ridiculous, since he was asking Christians.
Because he knew what choice you'd make beforehand- him being all-knowing prevents a free will choice because it was predetermined
Him knowing what choice you would make does not mean that he predetermined it.
Predetermine
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: "
God does not decide or establish our choice in advance
Know
to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty:
to be cognizant or aware of:
God is aware of our choice in advance.
It simply means he knows, you are extrapolating one concept to another.
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Since no one can say with proof that God put anything in their heart, then no one can answer his question from the belief standpoint. Which, I think is ridiculous, since he was asking Christians.
Ah. True. Seems like you answered his question then!
Him knowing what choice you would make does not mean that he predetermined it.
God does know what choices we will make before we make them, but He does not force HIS will on us...if He did, we would all be puppets. Just because He knows something beforehand doesn't mean our choices have suddenly disappeared!
she had a choice to make and she made it....God did not force her to do things HIS way.....and THAT IS FREE WILL!!
I think you're looking at it with the foundations flipped. Even if this god is just simply aware of the choices in advance and it knows the outcome, the choice is still an illusion since the outcome is already known in advance and inevitable. A christian may have and make a choice, but it is not a free choice since the course of action is known prior to the decision. Ultimately they are powerless to do anything other because of the 'all-knowing' aspect of the god-- an example being a person going against your stacked deck and then they say they will no doubt win the game because the game is fair. You know they're going to lose, but you don't interfere even though you stacked that deck. The cards were already set for them to lose beforehand, so any decision they make will result in losing the game. Choice is just a masked illusion in this sense.
And yes, I see that I was kind of extrapolating there. Though considering christians believe that this god created everything in existence, couldn't one conclude that since god knew from the 'day' the universe was built that everything was decided then due to the all-knowing aspect?
This can now extend beyond religious dogma, but I'm trying not to do that since we'll end up writing 50 pages in this thread.
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So....you have "free choice" yet someone already knows what you are going to do even before you do it or know that you are going to do it and since it is already known you must do it just as so.....however, you still have the choice to do it even tho that is the only choice you really have available.
***scratches head***
And you still have free choice?
Never mind, you guys are making my brain ache......
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And yes, I see that I was kind of extrapolating there. Though considering christians believe that this god created everything in existence, couldn't one conclude that since god knew from the 'day' the universe was built that everything was decided then due to the all-knowing aspect?
Well, that's a good question however you are dealing with a God that does not have time limits. Time does not exist for him the way it does for us. I used this example with queen once. We as human beings perceive time on a line we have a beginning and an end, we live out the events of our lives on this line and it is finite. God is timeless, so to him that line is a circle and he is in the middle of it touching all points of time at the same time. So at the same time I'm being born, I'm getting married. On a larger scale, at the same time God was forming the universe, Jesus was being crucified, and my hamster was eating a carrot. So it is a complex idea and difficult to comprehend because our finite minds have a hard time grasping something outside of our own limitations
But for the sake of argument here, everything was decided from the beginning, but who did the deciding? Just because God knows the decision does not mean he coerced the decision to go a certain way thereby causing the decisions outcome to be what he "knows" will happen. I still make the decision, just because God knew I would make it, doesn't somehow mean that I HAD to make it, it just means God already knew I would. Again, knowing isn't causing.
This particular argument hurts my brain so I hope I made sense lol.
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This is not a put-down or an argument, it is an observation. I find it ludicrous that anyone thinks God (or any entity), can possibly keep track of billions upon billions upon billions of predestined cellular/human activities, not to mention the thoughts that come into play. Even as a christian, I found this 'stand' ridiculous to possibly grasp. If you do do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you do NOT do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something and did it and it turned out well, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something, did it, and it turned out bad, there is an argument re God to support that. On and on and on. Lets not even get into the 'degrees of sin'. Bad is bad and good is good in my world. There is no grey area for me to slide into and no one but myself to 'blame' when I do something I know is wrong.
This list can go on forever and it makes every single human being sound like a mindless, uncontrolled machine. If you read through this thread, in particular, you will see that not one 'religious' poster can actually answer a question put to them! It is all a circular argument. Headache from reading it? Small wonder - none of it makes an iota of sense in the actual world. What happened to common sense and self accountability? I'll tell ya what happened to it. It doesn't have to exist if you have something else you can say is running your life. Thanks, but no thanks, I will make my own decisions and take the consequences for my own actions.
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This is not a put-down or an argument, it is an observation. I find it ludicrous that anyone thinks God (or any entity), can possibly keep track of billions upon billions upon billions of predestined cellular/human activities, not to mention the thoughts that come into play. Even as a christian, I found this 'stand' ridiculous to possibly grasp. If you do do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you do NOT do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something and did it and it turned out well, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something, did it, and it turned out bad, there is an argument re God to support that. On and on and on. Lets not even get into the 'degrees of sin'. Bad is bad and good is good in my world. There is no grey area for me to slide into and no one but myself to 'blame' when I do something I know is wrong.
This list can go on forever and it makes every single human being sound like a mindless, uncontrolled machine. If you read through this thread, in particular, you will see that not one 'religious' poster can actually answer a question put to them! It is all a circular argument. Headache from reading it? Small wonder - none of it makes an iota of sense in the actual world. What happened to common sense and self accountability? I'll tell ya what happened to it. It doesn't have to exist if you have something else you can say is running your life. Thanks, but no thanks, I will make my own decisions and take the consequences for my own actions.
Yeah.....what she said.
I could actually comprehend that......
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This is not a put-down or an argument, it is an observation. I find it ludicrous that anyone thinks God (or any entity), can possibly keep track of billions upon billions upon billions of predestined cellular/human activities, not to mention the thoughts that come into play. Even as a christian, I found this 'stand' ridiculous to possibly grasp. If you do do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you do NOT do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something and did it and it turned out well, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something, did it, and it turned out bad, there is an argument re God to support that. On and on and on. Lets not even get into the 'degrees of sin'. Bad is bad and good is good in my world. There is no grey area for me to slide into and no one but myself to 'blame' when I do something I know is wrong.
This list can go on forever and it makes every single human being sound like a mindless, uncontrolled machine. If you read through this thread, in particular, you will see that not one 'religious' poster can actually answer a question put to them! It is all a circular argument. Headache from reading it? Small wonder - none of it makes an iota of sense in the actual world. What happened to common sense and self accountability? I'll tell ya what happened to it. It doesn't have to exist if you have something else you can say is running your life. Thanks, but no thanks, I will make my own decisions and take the consequences for my own actions.
Yeah.....what she said.
I could actually comprehend that......
Umm critique my argument please(it's below)
On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.
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On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.
Like I've stated before, the choice is an illusion because the course of action/choice was already mapped out prior to the choice. You may make the choice and it may seem like you are free to make it, but with a deity that has all-knowledge and a plan, you really don't have one since it was known beforehand.
Sherna- I'll get back to you. At work.
Jdog- For the most part, I agree. Your post is pretty much why I'm a compatibilist.
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On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.
Like I've stated before, the choice is an illusion because the course of action/choice was already mapped out prior to the choice. You may make the choice and it may seem like you are free to make it, but with a deity that has all-knowledge and a plan, you really don't have one since it was known beforehand.
Sherna- I'll get back to you. At work.
Jdog- For the most part, I agree. Your post is pretty much why I'm a compatibilist.
Good argument except you also map out your life and plans thus your own choices are illusions too :P. Heck I guess God's own judgments(choices on condemning action) is an illusion too since he mapped those out long before the world began.
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Good argument except you also map out your life and plans thus your own choices are illusions too
Well nothing ever goes according to plan since we don't have knowledge of the futue. If this statement were true, I'd be a billionaire and married to the hottest woman on earth.
Heck I guess God's own judgments(choices on condemning action) is an illusion too since he mapped those out long before the world began.
That's a good point. And that's why I think the whole idea here is just insane because people following this deity so adamantly think he's full of love and yet he pulls such an evil move (unless he's imperfect). Like Jdog put it, there's probably some cop-out reasoning to this and that's a major reason why agnostics/atheists don't even bother with religion-- it's to the point where it's just so ludicrous to even assume such things.
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Neglected to add this to last post, don't need any misinterpretation and hurt feelings caused by my words, and I really need to get some sleep before work tonight(!). So here it is.
@Sherene: I think your post about the man and not helping him is very similar to things we have discussed on here before. Your own 'gut' told you not to go back and help him. You said you felt you had missed an opportunity, but I feel you made the right decision. Yes, it might have turned out to be a very sincere and wonderful man, BUT he could just as well turned out to be a rapist and you his next victim. I will not argue with you saying God told you to help him or put the thought in your head because that is your belief system in play and not my business. It is another mind boggling, to me, example of the whole "do it, don't do it, think it because you were told to think it, yada....'. I just never reached that point of total control of every second, minute, action, thought, for ever and ever aspect by God when I did believe.
See you all later on.
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Well I have assurance from past experience that the urge I had to help the man was God. And I SHOULD have had faith that since I knew it was God that he was not telling me to help a man so I could be raped. I believe that I listened to the wrong voice (satan) feeding me fear and not trusting God. After all I have helped homeless people before without fear. But of course I am coming from a standpoint that the spiritual invisible things of this world are completely real, so for someone who doesn't believe that, it's not easy to understand where I'm coming from and I certainly sound nuts to some but I don't really care.
I let fear overcome an opportunity that God was giving me to help somebody and make a difference.
The history of the human race is the history of ordinary people who have overcome their fears and accomplished extraordinary things.~Brian Tracy
Of course a person should be wise in their decisions and not just follow every impulse they ever have. But believing that God told me to help the man, wisdom would have been obeying that urge and watching God do something great in someones life.
And I disagree that no religious post has given answers. It's just that you disagree with their answers.
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And I disagree that no religious post has given answers. It's just that you disagree with their answers.
The above quote is ONLY for the purpose of this post and is NOT directed specifically at who said it. The only way I can disagree with something is IF I give that something validity to begin with. Since I don't find the see-sawing back and forth combined with giving credence to an omnipotent force valid, I don't disagree with it. I dismiss it, period. If you can all extrapolate as far as God having a different 'sense of time' than humans, part of why he knows everything before it happens, then take it a step further. The rapist, murderer, child molester, who also believes in God and his omnipotence can use the same equation for his/her actions. It is a higher DEGREE of sin, but God already knows THEIR thoughts anyway, so when they contemplate doing an aborrhent act, they can use the same reasoning and justification. God put the thoughts into their head because they too believe in him, God already knew what they were going to do (possibly eons before they were even conceived), so they went forward and acted on their thinking.
I'm sure that this will be looked at as invalid. Why should it be though? You can't apply rules or restrictions to omnipotence when you want to or just to positive situations. If you do, it is NO longer omnipotence and is flawed from the get-go. This is why feathers get ruffled and hackles raise up. Most believers want to work in a magical grey area - speak as a witness to the great and heart warming things, but change the rules when things don't look so hot in the harsh light of reality.
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God put the thoughts into their head because they too believe in him, God already knew what they were going to do (possibly eons before they were even conceived), so they went forward and acted on their thinking.
I may be misunderstanding you :dontknow: but God wouldn't put it into someones head to rape or murder or molest somebody so that isn't an excuse to act on those sinful thoughts. And just because God knew a persons sin before they ever committed it doesn't mean that he caused them to sin or that their behavior is justified through the simple fact of God knowing they would do it.
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I would like to respond, if I may, to this also. It seems the main disagreement implies that there is an action by God upon a person that negates His freedom to choose. So that would mean the the person making a choice is affected by God's knowledge to such an extent that in essence he really doesn't have that freedom after all. If that's so, can you prove it logically?
We know that God's knowing what we will choose is a function of His omnipresence, since He is in all places all the time. That in itself, is hard to understand. However, this question or disagreement is always going to be unanswerable concretely because when you think about it, we all work in time. God works outside of time. God deals with the past, present, and future realities and only He knows what has been chosen, is being chose, and will be chosen. Another idea of this, too, is that the past, present, and future were created for us for our understanding of time.
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I have skimmed or read through most of the posts in this topic... and I know I should not reply... but I can't help it...
I am not going to state exactly what I personally believe... but on both sides I wanted to add a few things. Science has supposedly proven the that we humans have evolved from primates. Yet the Bible states that GOD created us. Both sides say they have "proof" yet both can NOT be right. There are even those out there who believe, that we were placed on this planet by an alien race. There are countless other theories out there, with supposed proof, or believe behind them.
My thoughts on the Bible... it was a book written by MAN. Yell all you want, damn me all you want, but it IS true. Along with that being said, NONE of the writers of the Bible were the actual people who supposedly went through what ever it was that was written in it. All the stories, or chapters, or versus and etc... were all "handed down" by the original person, through generations and finally one day put into the book. And I am sorry but, there is nothing that can make me believe that all of those things written are 100% accurate. I believe truly that some, most or maybe even ALL, of them were changed, or maybe someone added their two cents so to speak, or maybe even took part of the story out, hell maybe even sensationalized part of them for better reading, like they do with movies based on true stories. I am not saying that the Bible is not "real" or that GOD is not real, etc... I am just saying that the Bible was written by MAN, and no one alive today can say what actually happened back then, because they were not there.
Now based on this thought process... it is really hard for me to believe certain things about religion. One big question I have is how can so many different religions be wrong? Christians say they are the only ones allowed into heaven, Catholics say they are, Baptists say they are and etc... I find it hard to believe that ONLY one religion is right, and every other one is wrong, and if you are not in the right one you will go to hell. I also really have a hard time believing that a man or woman can lead a life of udder evil, possibly raping, killing multiple people, molesting children, and etc... go their whole damn life, then suddenly when they are old and dying, or maybe they get cancer and are dying, and they suddenly "find GOD" and as long as they ask for forgiveness, and "get saved" that they will go to heaven when they die? I just find this way too hard to believe, and honestly IF it is true... I sometimes wonder if I would really want to go to heaven after all?
This is the same said for what another person in the forums said about curing cancer, hunger and etc... and that person would go to hell, because he didn't officially get "saved" before dying? So if this thinking is right... then that means a hell of a lot of evil people who have molested children, killed innocent people, tortured, raped or worse are living it up in heaven, and good people who have taken care of others, lead a loving, and good, honest life, maybe cured things, fed the hungry and etc... are all burning in hell... that is beyond screwed up if it is true. I just can not wrap my brain around it to accept it.
Ok I think I need to stop typing now, because some of the other things I would like to say on this topic, might cause a lot of yelling and cursing LOL.
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Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life. Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God. If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart.
so if i were a mass murderer and child molester, would the non-glory go to god for putting that "wiring" and desire in my heart?
Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit". Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven.
And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory. Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven. Clean slate.
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Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life. Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God. If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart.
so if i were a mass murderer and child molester, would the non-glory go to god for putting that "wiring" and desire in my heart?
Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit". Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven.
And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory. Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven. Clean slate.
*rolls eyes*
I really think sometimes this is just an excuse some people use, to get away with things.
"oh no I molested my neighbors child" - goes and confesses, repents, and asks forgiveness
next day, month or year later
"oh no I molested my neighbors child again" - goes and confesses, repents, and asks forgiveness
a week later the parent finds out and confronts the molester, and the molester kills the parent out of anger for the parent threatening to tell the police
"oh no I killed someone" - goes and confesses, repents, and asks forgiveness
(this has been the molesters path for many years, after molesting children as well as teens, some even repeatedly)
a few days later, molester/murderer gets caught by police, and dies in a car accident on the way to jail, BUT he goes to HEAVEN because just the day before he repented again and asked forgiveness again.
meanwhile....
that child who was molested and lost a parent, grows up helping other molested children, and children who have had parents murdered. He/she does so many great deeds in their life that no one can keep count of them. This person never does anything to harm another person, never breaks a law, helps anyone and everyone in need. When he/she is in their teens they slip in the shower and break their neck, and die. He/she goes to hell, because they never repented and asked forgiveness for sins.
At that moment the molester/murderer is watching from heaven, which he likes doing from time to time to feed the sick need still in him... and he see's the teen who he once molested die, and he see's his/her spirit go to hell. The molester/murderer kicks himself and grumbles, wishing now he had not repented and asked forgiveness, so that he could be in hell with the one he harmed.
OK YEAH... I know this was a little on the dumb side, LOL, but hopefully you and others got my point. It sounded like a joke, and it was a joke in a way, but if what you and others say then THIS (if it really happened) could be TRUTH and NOT a joke? Seriously how dumb is THAT?
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OMG DARK MISTRESS I HATE YOU SO MUCH STOP TYPING OMG ITS SO AWFUL UR GOING TO HELL UR A TERRIBLE PERSON SINCE YOU NOT CHRISTIAN
jk, girrrl. ;) I'm glad you replied. Do moreso here in D+D. You're just pretty much bluntly telling it how it is, so I don't see why anyone would freak out at you. Please continue if you want, but you need to understand one thing that I'm starting to see all over-- the pathways to reasoning the believers use is pretty far-fetched no matter where you go. What I see a lot of is there's this emotional blanket that covers most logic/rationale/skepticism. If that's the case, it's usually pointless arguing correctly because you're going to strike the emotional chord and just get showered with fallacies left and right.
Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit". Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven. And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory. Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven. Clean slate.
:angry7:
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OMG DARK MISTRESS I HATE YOU SO MUCH STOP TYPING OMG ITS SO AWFUL UR GOING TO HELL UR A TERRIBLE PERSON SINCE YOU NOT CHRISTIAN
jk, girrrl. ;) I'm glad you replied. Do moreso here in D+D. You're just pretty much telling it how it is, so I don't see why anyone would freak out at you. Please continue if you want, but you need to understand one thing that I'm starting to see all over-- the logic the believers use is pretty far-fetched no matter where you go. What I see a lot of is there's this emotional blanket that covers most logic/rationale/skepticism. If that's the case, it's usually pointless arguing correctly because you're going to strike the emotional chord and just get showered with fallacies left and right.
Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit". Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven. And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory. Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven. Clean slate.
:angry7:
I never said I was not Christian. I am a Catholic, and YES I DO believe in GOD, YES I believe in Jesus, and that he died for our sins. YES I know the Bible, YES I have faith, YES I have a personal relationship with GOD. This is all truth, HOWEVER I have a hard time believing in a lot of things that MAN has done in regards to this, and things that MAN has said, and DOES say in regards to this.
All I know is when I die, You die, every single person walking this earth dies, THEN, and only THEN will you find out the REAL truth. Then you will find out if you go to heaven, or hell, or stay in limbo, get reincarnated, or etc... Only then will you possibly find out that molesters and murders are filling up heaven, OR if they are all in hell. Only then will you even find out IF there really IS a heaven/hell. For all we honestly know, when we die our "souls" or spirits could be transported back to the alien mother ship, LOL. I am not saying I believe this, I am just saying NONE of us really know for sure, UNTIL we die and find out.
You can call me a fake if you want, or say I am not a true believer, I do not care, it is not anyone's place to judge me on this, and it does not matter, because those people are NOT going to be the ones to decide what happens to me when I do die. I just strongly have issues with "MAN" not GOD. And yes the Bible is one issue I have problems with in some aspects, but again that is because I believe MAN wrote it, and that it is not 100% accurate to possibly what GOD might have wanted put in it, or not put in it.
An example of this... in the old testament it clearly says for example you are NOT supposed to work on the sabbath day, or 7th day, or we can say Sunday. Yet as times changed, and people could no longer just sit home and do nothing so to speak on that day, when the NEW testament came out, suddenly it says in there that you CAN work on this day. I TRULY believe that this was changed by MAN, to accommodate the times, and to accommodate MAN. Other examples... what about eating anything with "hoofs" aka pigs? What about touching, being with, hell even being in the SAME room as a woman who was on her menstrual? These things were SINS, and not allowed in the old testament. Then suddenly in the NEW one they are allowed? WHY? Because man decided eating pigs was ok? Because man did not want to have to stay away from women while on their periods? Though based on how some women act while on their periods... I don't know why in the world they would want to change that one, LOL.
As for those who want to preach that the Bible was written word for word what was told to them... LMFAO, ok here is something to think about... again I repeat what I mentioned in another post, nothing written in the Bible was written BY the person who went through it, saw it, experienced it. It was all "handed down" knowledge. So HERE is the questions... have you ever played that game in school or etc... where the teacher lined up all the students, then he/she whispered something into the ear of the first person, then that person whispered it to the second person, then second whispered to third and etc... THEN at the end, after all the students did this, the last one would say out loud what they were told? Ever notice that it is rarely IF ever the exact SAME thing the first person was told? Think about it... Another question, what about Noah's arc? Are we to believe that when GOD wiped out the world with that water, but only Noah, and his family were spared on the arc. SO the point here is, that every story in the bible before Noah, was remembered and passed on BY Noah? Every detail, fact, and etc...?
Ok last thing: I believe GOD is all knowing, and etc... So if GOD is perfect, infallible, AND all knowing... then WHY, are there contradictions in the Bible? Why are there things inaccurate in the Bible? Why are there things NOT in the Bible that IF it was written as GOD wanted it written then he WOULD know and have those things put in it? This just does not make sense, but what DOES make sense, is that MAN wrote the Bible as he wanted, based on what he was told, I believe he forgot, or just left out things that he wanted to leave out, or added things he felt personally should be in there. I believe the reason some things were left out, is because MAN is NOT all knowing, and at the time he did not know about them. I could give examples of this as well, but I will leave it alone for now, and end this post. Any feedback is welcomed, and I hope some of you really read and think about the things put here.
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Darkmistress
I can completely relate to what you are saying about the bible. At one point in my life I got so frustrated with the bible i ripped all the pages out and burned them. I didn't not believe in God but I began to seriously question his character. Ironically it wasn't until I came into this forum and began being challenged about what I believe by the non Christians here that I took on a quest, so to speak, to find out the truth.
Many things I thought were contradictory about the bible were a misunderstanding on my part. And what I found gave me more trust in the bible than I ever had before. One sight that has helped me tremendously is www.godandscience.org. I truly believe that if you take the time to search out that website you will find some things there that help make sense of some confusing issues. :thumbsup:
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I really like the site that Sherene likes, too. I also like http://www.gotquestions.org/about.html.
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Darkmistress
I can completely relate to what you are saying about the bible. At one point in my life I got so frustrated with the bible i ripped all the pages out and burned them. I didn't not believe in God but I began to seriously question his character. Ironically it wasn't until I came into this forum and began being challenged about what I believe by the non Christians here that I took on a quest, so to speak, to find out the truth.
Many things I thought were contradictory about the bible were a misunderstanding on my part. And what I found gave me more trust in the bible than I ever had before. One sight that has helped me tremendously is www.godandscience.org. I truly believe that if you take the time to search out that website you will find some things there that help make sense of some confusing issues. :thumbsup:
I am not basing anything here on ONLY my personal knowledge. So it is not a matter of my own "misunderstanding" of what I read in the Bible. I am basing it on research I have done, questions I have asked of those who are supposed to know. Things told to me by preachers, priests, and the like. Things I have read in books, or on web sites that are there to explain things in the Bible to you, or explain things about the Bible, or what something says in the Bible means. And again I repeat, I am not, nor have I ever "questioned GOD character". I do not question HIM, I know everything happens for a reason, I know what is meant to be will be if it is in HIS plan for my life. I question man, and things written BY man, I question the accuracy of things said BY man, done BY man and etc... I do not question GOD.
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I guess I didn't say what I was trying to say very well. I questioned God's character BECAUSE of the bible. I believe the bible is infallible regardless of whether it was written by man. After all God uses flawed men throughout all time to accomplish his purpose and perfect will. He has used me for a purpose and I am completely flawed. God used flawed men to write the bible but that doesn't mean the bible is flawed IMO. But the bible can be used by anyone to justify their behavior, so it is important that when a person reads or uses scripture that they are letting God's holy spirit minister truth.
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I cannot say what Gods punishment is for molesters or murderes or liars and thiefs. Only God has the right to judge them. Their offenses are against Him. But those that repent, ask God to lead them out of those temptations...usually don't do it again. It is a difficult walk.
Temptation is real, dangerous, and personal. I am commanded to love, forgive, act justly, show mercy, and walk humbly. You are responsible for you. It is in those final moments of death, where its just you, all alone standing before eternities "fork in the road".....one is with God and one is without. But there is only one bridge to God. But that is my belief and truth for my life and many others. I cannot speak for others life walk and decisions. The world is insane.....trying to reason with its "whys" and "hows" is asking the wrong questions. Stop asking < What happens to those people who do this?> and start asking "What happens to you?". And then get on with your life with your decision on how and why you live that way. Justify your life with your actions, not by your arguments.
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wow, so I guess that means all those poor souls who lived BEFORE Jesus was born were doomed. Unless reincarnation is real... :o
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The depth of Gods forgiveness no one can fathom. I don't know what His plan was/is for those before. Perhaps he set aside a place for those who knew of the "one God". They lived under an old contract(Old Testament) with rules and sacrifices for their sins and wrong doing(rule breaking)before Christ came. But that is what the old testament was all about. Preparing a way for the ultimate sacrifice for all time by Christ. Getting ready for the One. Ten commandments, all those "rules" were simplifed down to "love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and do unto others as you have others do to you. No one ever got it right for those old rules before Christ. If you failed to live up to those rules odds were against you. Of course God decides who was condemned and it really isn't our concern. That is between God and them. But that is no excuse for you to speculate what the Almighty would do with those souls before Christ...thats His business. That "plan" does not apply to you or I after Christ died and rose from the dead. There is new contract(A New Testament.)in place for us. But we now know that it is through Christ we are bridged to God. We are no longer separated from God with all of these rules and I am fully persuaded that he is able to keep the life I have committed to Him for eternity with Him. I am more interested in the resurrection than the reincarnation.
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C'mon now people.......making it up as you go is what got us all in this mess to start with.
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^
Epic statement of the day. The last few posts have shown that this is getting a little too odd for me to comment on.
And Darkmistress-- I'm not questioning, bashing, or calling you a fake nor do I want to. From my POV you seem like you have your head on pretty straight. You seem to be more of an agnostic-theist than an adamant christian because you actually see some massive problems and question them.
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Good luck with putting God in a box Falconer.
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wow, so I guess that means all those poor souls who lived BEFORE Jesus was born were doomed. Unless reincarnation is real... :o
I think my earlier post about time and how we perceive it applies only to us (humans). If you go back to that post you will see that there is no past present and future with God and therefore Christs sacrifice applies to ALL people from the beginning of time till the end of it.
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Oh and for the record walks I'm not making things up as I go. When challenged with a question I don't have an answer to I do take the time to research and find out the answer. And I believe I am pretty consistent in my responses. I have a little more integrity than to just make stuff up to prove a point. :)
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Good luck with putting God in a box Falconer.
Good luck breaking out of your own.
Oh and for the record walks I'm not making things up as I go. When challenged with a question I don't have an answer to I do take the time to research and find out the answer. And I believe I am pretty consistent in my responses. I have a little more integrity than to just make stuff up to prove a point.
Yes you do. And many times it is appreciated. Even though we may not agree on certain things, it's nice to hear that side explained in detail.
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Oh and for the record walks I'm not making things up as I go. When challenged with a question I don't have an answer to I do take the time to research and find out the answer. And I believe I am pretty consistent in my responses. I have a little more integrity than to just make stuff up to prove a point. :)
I'm sorry Mrs. Sherna, I guess I should have clarified whom I was refering to.
Suffice it to say it was not you. I don't really quit get how your brain processes information but I deffinately appreciate your way of doing your research and coming to your own conclusions, versus being a clueless albeit obedient follower of the religious establishment.
I may not completely agree with all of your answers but hey,....atleast you use your own. Thank you.
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Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life. Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God. If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart.
so if i were a mass murderer and child molester, would the non-glory go to god for putting that "wiring" and desire in my heart?
your not going to respond to this, dell??
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Thanks walks and Falconer ;D you guys are great too :notworthy:
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Good works, no matter what do not get you into Glory or eternal life. Your abilities, and actions were given to you,(opportunities) by God. If God has you cure cancer...Glory goes to God for putting that "Wiring" and desire in your heart.
so if i were a mass murderer and child molester, would the non-glory go to god for putting that "wiring" and desire in my heart?
your not going to respond to this, dell??
Chase, either you didn't see my response to that question or your post to dell indicates that you don't care about the responses to your questions so long as you can find someone with whom you think you can argue. So I'm confused, did you start the thread because you wanted answers or because you want to argue no matter what the answers are? If it's the latter, then I think you need to get a life :confused1:
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
is not a catch at all trust and believe and obey by his commandments and you should be knocking who should believe in should also believe in the father.
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It appears the only one putting people into boxes are those that try to ask questions in order to put those responding into some sort of "box" such as "agnostic or atheist" ....in order to make themselves feel better about there decisons in life or lack thereof. I won't be continuing on this thread. Foolish conversations baited by argumentative fools.
I will not compromise with anything you say.
I know I will be breaking out of my box on that Day...cannot say the same for you, because you are going to Hell when you die. More information has been presented to you than most in their lifetime. You have made you decision.
God won't fit in your box and how you want to define how he is suppose to behave ,act or do. You are just a man. Created. Not the creator.
Good bye.
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It appears the only one putting people into boxes are those that try to ask questions in order to put those responding into some sort of "box" such as "agnostic or atheist" ....in order to make themselves feel better about there decisons in life or lack thereof. I won't be continuing on this thread. Foolish conversations baited by argumentative fools.
I will not compromise with anything you say.
I know I will be breaking out of my box on that Day...cannot say the same for you, because you are going to Hell when you die. More information has been presented to you than most in their lifetime. You have made you decision.
God won't fit in your box and how you want to define how he is suppose to behave ,act or do. You are just a man. Created. Not the creator.
Good bye.
There is so many oddities with your post that I can only say this-
I am not just a man. I am THE MAN! And you got friggin' OOOWWWNNNEEEDDD!
**air guitar**
:wave:
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It appears the only one putting people into boxes are those that try to ask questions in order to put those responding into some sort of "box" such as "agnostic or atheist" ....in order to make themselves feel better about there decisons in life or lack thereof. I won't be continuing on this thread. Foolish conversations baited by argumentative fools.
I will not compromise with anything you say.
I know I will be breaking out of my box on that Day...cannot say the same for you, because you are going to Hell when you die. More information has been presented to you than most in their lifetime. You have made you decision.
God won't fit in your box and how you want to define how he is suppose to behave ,act or do. You are just a man. Created. Not the creator.
Good bye.
There is so many oddities with your post that I can only say this-
I am not just a man. I am THE MAN! And you got friggin' OOOWWWNNNEEEDDD!
**air guitar**
:wave:
Hey Bro, any chance we can turn down the volume on the ego?
It's kinda making my stomach queezy.
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:icon_rr:
Oh wait what? Sorry. I think I've watched Charlie Sheen too much in the last few days.
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:icon_rr:
Oh wait what? Sorry. I think I've watched Charlie Sheen too much in the last few days.
LOL.....you have one speed, one gear GO!
Falconer, are you bi-winning?? :P
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Falconer, are you bi-winning??
*snorts cocaine*
YES! Dell borrowed my brain for 5 seconds and said "Dude! Can't handle it! Unplug this *bleep*!"
Btw how much cocaine did Charlie Sheen do? Enough to kill two and a half men!
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OMG DARK MISTRESS I HATE YOU SO MUCH STOP TYPING OMG ITS SO AWFUL UR GOING TO HELL UR A TERRIBLE PERSON SINCE YOU NOT CHRISTIAN
jk, girrrl. ;) I'm glad you replied. Do moreso here in D+D. You're just pretty much telling it how it is, so I don't see why anyone would freak out at you. Please continue if you want, but you need to understand one thing that I'm starting to see all over-- the logic the believers use is pretty far-fetched no matter where you go. What I see a lot of is there's this emotional blanket that covers most logic/rationale/skepticism. If that's the case, it's usually pointless arguing correctly because you're going to strike the emotional chord and just get showered with fallacies left and right.
Mass murderer or church attender, good deed doer, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, seek his sovereignty in your life, you get no "credit". Unless you live life for God, in His name, you are not going to heaven. And forgiven child molesters and mass murderers are walking in glory. Bu t once you go through Christ all is forgiven. Clean slate.
:angry7:
I never said I was not Christian. I am a Catholic, and YES I DO believe in GOD, YES I believe in Jesus, and that he died for our sins. YES I know the Bible, YES I have faith, YES I have a personal relationship with GOD. This is all truth, HOWEVER I have a hard time believing in a lot of things that MAN has done in regards to this, and things that MAN has said, and DOES say in regards to this.
All I know is when I die, You die, every single person walking this earth dies, THEN, and only THEN will you find out the REAL truth. Then you will find out if you go to heaven, or hell, or stay in limbo, get reincarnated, or etc... Only then will you possibly find out that molesters and murders are filling up heaven, OR if they are all in hell. Only then will you even find out IF there really IS a heaven/hell. For all we honestly know, when we die our "souls" or spirits could be transported back to the alien mother ship, LOL. I am not saying I believe this, I am just saying NONE of us really know for sure, UNTIL we die and find out.
You can call me a fake if you want, or say I am not a true believer, I do not care, it is not anyone's place to judge me on this, and it does not matter, because those people are NOT going to be the ones to decide what happens to me when I do die. I just strongly have issues with "MAN" not GOD. And yes the Bible is one issue I have problems with in some aspects, but again that is because I believe MAN wrote it, and that it is not 100% accurate to possibly what GOD might have wanted put in it, or not put in it.
An example of this... in the old testament it clearly says for example you are NOT supposed to work on the sabbath day, or 7th day, or we can say Sunday. Yet as times changed, and people could no longer just sit home and do nothing so to speak on that day, when the NEW testament came out, suddenly it says in there that you CAN work on this day. I TRULY believe that this was changed by MAN, to accommodate the times, and to accommodate MAN. Other examples... what about eating anything with "hoofs" aka pigs? What about touching, being with, hell even being in the SAME room as a woman who was on her menstrual? These things were SINS, and not allowed in the old testament. Then suddenly in the NEW one they are allowed? WHY? Because man decided eating pigs was ok? Because man did not want to have to stay away from women while on their periods? Though based on how some women act while on their periods... I don't know why in the world they would want to change that one, LOL.
As for those who want to preach that the Bible was written word for word what was told to them... LMFAO, ok here is something to think about... again I repeat what I mentioned in another post, nothing written in the Bible was written BY the person who went through it, saw it, experienced it. It was all "handed down" knowledge. So HERE is the questions... have you ever played that game in school or etc... where the teacher lined up all the students, then he/she whispered something into the ear of the first person, then that person whispered it to the second person, then second whispered to third and etc... THEN at the end, after all the students did this, the last one would say out loud what they were told? Ever notice that it is rarely IF ever the exact SAME thing the first person was told? Think about it... Another question, what about Noah's arc? Are we to believe that when GOD wiped out the world with that water, but only Noah, and his family were spared on the arc. SO the point here is, that every story in the bible before Noah, was remembered and passed on BY Noah? Every detail, fact, and etc...?
Ok last thing: I believe GOD is all knowing, and etc... So if GOD is perfect, infallible, AND all knowing... then WHY, are there contradictions in the Bible? Why are there things inaccurate in the Bible? Why are there things NOT in the Bible that IF it was written as GOD wanted it written then he WOULD know and have those things put in it? This just does not make sense, but what DOES make sense, is that MAN wrote the Bible as he wanted, based on what he was told, I believe he forgot, or just left out things that he wanted to leave out, or added things he felt personally should be in there. I believe the reason some things were left out, is because MAN is NOT all knowing, and at the time he did not know about them. I could give examples of this as well, but I will leave it alone for now, and end this post. Any feedback is welcomed, and I hope some of you really read and think about the things put here.
I would love to answer your questions if only we can PM each other but we can't :'(, I also left my laptop on the bus(in a bag) please flame me Falconor and every FC member period even Kolher(FC Admin).
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Good argument except you also map out your life and plans thus your own choices are illusions too
Well nothing ever goes according to plan since we don't have knowledge of the futue. If this statement were true, I'd be a billionaire and married to the hottest woman on earth.
Heck I guess God's own judgments(choices on condemning action) is an illusion too since he mapped those out long before the world began.
That's a good point. And that's why I think the whole idea here is just insane because people following this deity so adamantly think he's full of love and yet he pulls such an evil move (unless he's imperfect). Like Jdog put it, there's probably some cop-out reasoning to this and that's a major reason why agnostics/atheists don't even bother with religion-- it's to the point where it's just so ludicrous to even assume such things.
You comments are in the order you said them.
"Well nothing ever goes according to plan since we don't have knowledge of the futue. If this statement were true, I'd be a billionaire and married to the hottest woman on earth."
Well you have the ability to plan and i'm pretty sure you do well with the limited knowledge you have. I believe mapping out events is called quantum mechanics if you get good enough with probability skills. Now imagine God using that but to the 100000 trillionth power times another 100000 trillion :P
"That's a good point. And that's why I think the whole idea here is just insane because people following this deity so adamantly think he's full of love and yet he pulls such an evil move (unless he's imperfect). Like Jdog put it, there's probably some cop-out reasoning to this and that's a major reason why agnostics/atheists don't even bother with religion-- it's to the point where it's just so ludicrous to even assume such things."
Define pulls such an evil move, otherwise I agree on everything you just said.
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Well you have the ability to plan and i'm pretty sure you do well with the limited knowledge you have. I believe mapping out events is called quantum mechanics if you get good enough with probability skills. Now imagine God using that but to the 100000 trillionth power times another 100000 trillion
I actually am not doing too well at the moment. Not horrible or anything-- I'm making due and all and I'm in good health and shape. But it could be a lot better compared to my fantasy life. Aside from the cool forum with cool people, why do you think I'm on FC? lol
Even with planning things, the results I sometimes get could always be better. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say rarely do plans work perfectly. Even if I were to expontentially heighten my ability to plan into the trillions, I'd still be very imperfect.
Define pulls such an evil move, otherwise I agree on everything you just said.
Well when you have control over everything (including our 'free will') and you allow for horrid things to happen and also expel people into oblivion for eternity as many christians believe, that's completely evil. If this god is omniscient --knows you're going to end up in hell-- ultimately you're screwed from day one. I'll fall back on Epicurus's famous quote as I have time to time in the past-
http://maradon.makeitorky.com/epicurus_god.jpg
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I just returned from Thailand on March 10th after visiting my fiance. She is Buddhist, as is her sister and most of Thai populace. Anywhere you look, you will see Buddha statues, including most residences, public places, taxi dashboards, etc.--pretty much everywhere. To make a long story short, I know a lot of people of different religions who have good hearts and cannot believe that a loving omnipotent being, God, would relegate all those who are non-Christian to hell. If you live by the Golden Rule and realize that love is the most important thing, I think you will be rewarded when you "cross over", Christian or not.
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Here is an interesting article I read. I have watched a lot of Rob Bell videos and I find his way of addressing things very interesting. I haven't read his new book or watched the video mentioned in this article, but I plan to. I think he probably makes a very relevant point and I wouldn't personally dismiss the idea of universalism, if it didn't contradict scripture. So I'm excited in reading something that talks about God's love, instead of his judgment. If you have an interest in this thread topic I suggest reading this article. :)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-lose/rob-bell-hell-and-john-31_b_833627.html
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^
Epic statement of the day. The last few posts have shown that this is getting a little too odd for me to comment on.
And Darkmistress-- I'm not questioning, bashing, or calling you a fake nor do I want to. From my POV you seem like you have your head on pretty straight. You seem to be more of an agnostic-theist than an adamant christian because you actually see some massive problems and question them.
I am not "agnostic-thiest". If I had to classify my religion then it would be Catholic. I just am who I am. I am a good person who tries to live by the ten commandments on a daily basis. I have made plenty of mistakes, and when needed I have asked GOD to forgive me for them, then I try not to repeat them. I believe in GOD, and in Jesus, I believe Jesus died for my sins, and I believe GOD loved me so much that he allowed his only son TO die for my sins. I believe when I die, I will be judged, and at that time all will be revealed, and I will find out 100% for sure what was true or not on this earth. If you asked me right now do I believe I would go to heaven, or hell? I would say I believe I will go to heaven, though I did not always believe this. I do not question GOD, Jesus, or his works on earth, however I DO question man. As hard as it might be to believe, this is all true. No where does it say we can not question things, or question man/other human beings. I will continue to question man to the day I die, for I will never walk blindly following what man has lead. Only GOD is infallible/perfect, man is not. It does not matter if GOD is working through some men/women, they are still human beings and NOT GOD himself, and they are not infallible, so they DO make mistakes, misunderstand, judge, and etc... So all of this take in, this is why I question the Bible, not all of it mind you, but some of it I do, yes. I also question how some people interpret the Bible, and GOD's works. I question what those who claim to be experts say is true or not true, in GOD's eyes, because they are not GOD, and they are basing their wisdom and knowledge on a book written by man, as well as what they think, feel, or their opinion. I say this because there are WAY to many "experts" who say different things, who have different versions to the "truth" in regards to the Bible, and GOD. So who is right? Are Catholics right? Christians? Baptists? and etc... Who is to say who is right, and who is wrong? This is why I question. It has nothing to do with my faith, belief or trust in GOD.
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I would love to answer your questions if only we can PM each other but we can't :'(, I also left my laptop on the bus(in a bag) please flame me Falconor and every FC member period even Kolher(FC Admin).
Sorry, but I have no idea what this means, or what you are saying here...
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Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord. Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven. Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.
you are so full of it your making it stink again..if there was really a god someone would have had to create him there is NO such thing as an infinite being everyone has got to be made, so your wasting your time praying to someone that does not exist(your actually talking to yourself) there is NO ONE that is going to chance my mind, when your dead, your dead and yes there is a place we go when we die..it's called THE GROUND
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I have made plenty of mistakes, and when needed I have asked GOD to forgive me for them, then I try not to repeat them.
Why not just learn from your mistakes?
I believe in GOD, and in Jesus, I believe Jesus died for my sins, and I believe GOD loved me so much that he allowed his only son TO die for my sins. I believe when I die, I will be judged, and at that time all will be revealed, and I will find out 100% for sure what was true or not on this earth.
If you asked me right now do I believe I would go to heaven, or hell? I would say I believe I will go to heaven, though I did not always believe this. I do not question GOD, Jesus, or his works on earth, however I DO question man. As hard as it might be to believe, this is all true. No where does it say we can not question things, or question man/other human beings. I will continue to question man to the day I die, for I will never walk blindly following what man has lead.
Why? Were you raised up believing this? Being the questioning person that you are, are you aware that there are a lot of other characters that have the same mythical quest pattern of Jesus that came way before his story did? You said you question man, so why even believe in such stories that are so obviously man-made? I mean I could introduce you to a truckload of information on the subject, but I want to hear your take on it; if you've ever questioned the basics.
Only GOD is infallible/perfect
I beg to differ. I brought this up in a few threads now. With this one god, there seems to be 2 options that come to light- he is very imperfect or he is evil. Basic reasoning- if he is omniscient, then he knows everything. If he knows everything, he knows who's going to heaven and hell. Nobody has free will due to this-- everyone's fate is set in stone on day 1. Any choice you make is pre-known and therefore there really is no choice in a universal sense. So this god is both lying and evil unless he has flaws and does not know what the future holds. So if he's infallible/perfect, he's going to judge you with what he already knew would happen beforehand? Isn't that sick? Let me know what you think.
So who is right? Are Catholics right? Christians? Baptists? and etc... Who is to say who is right, and who is wrong? This is why I question.
Join the club. Except I'm to the point of realizing christianity (no offense to you) is just as wacky as all of the others out there. The only thing that really bugs me is all of the judging and obvious deception going on within it. It's immature, irritating, primitive, and humorous all at the same time. Heck, it just happened to me a few days ago on this forum- some dude couldn't wrap his head around the topic I brought up so he got mad and cursed me to go to hell. :)
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I would love to answer your questions if only we can PM each other but we can't , I also left my laptop on the bus(in a bag) please flame me Falconor and every FC member period even Kolher(FC Admin).
So I take it that you lost your laptop? That sucks, man. :( Sorry to hear that. Hopefully some decent person will return it. A heads up though- I'd suggest changing any information that may have been stored in the browser-- email PW's, bank ID's, etc. etc.
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The reason so many Christians think only those who accept Christ will go to Biblical Heaven is because that is what the Bible clearly states. Satan is known as the great deceiver, and he doesn't need anyone's permission to deceive them. I think Satan will have MANY believing that as long as they are "just good people, living a good life" that they will go to Heaven---and he will be laughing at them later because they bought that lie. The Bible clearly states only those that accept Jesus into their hearts and have their sins forgiven will be saved. (The longer one is saved, the more that God will expect from them because Christianity is more than "lip-service".) For God to let anyone else into Heaven for any other reason would be to make Jesus a liar...and that isn't going to happen. Choose whom you're going to serve wisely...you WILL be spending eternity with them.
Well put, SherylsShado!!!
I like it, SherylsShado. Bless your heart! Thanks!
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Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord. Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven. Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.
you are so full of it your making it stink again..if there was really a god someone would have had to create him there is NO such thing as an infinite being everyone has got to be made, so your wasting your time praying to someone that does not exist(your actually talking to yourself) there is NO ONE that is going to chance my mind, when your dead, your dead and yes there is a place we go when we die..it's called THE GROUND
Yes, I agree with you that when we die, our bodies do get put in the ground. However, I do believe our souls (believers in God) are immediately with God. I don't feel I'm wasting my time praying to the Lord. I get that you don't agree with my beliefs - that's okay. You have your opinion about this and we should agree to just disagree about what we believe/don't believe. I'm not trying to change your mind and as well, you won't change my mind. The first chapter of John in the Bible tells us that God has always been. That's a concept that even I don't understand - how can God already be? I have to remember that His ways and thoughts are much higher than mine. But I do feel that question will be answered, among others, when I meet Him one day.
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Yes, 502mania, you will be sent to the eternal place of punishment, unless you acknowledge Him as Lord. Good works do not get you a spot in Heaven. Perhaps, if you acknowledge Him, then you can thank Him for helping you to find that cure for cancer.
you are so full of it your making it stink again..if there was really a god someone would have had to create him there is NO such thing as an infinite being everyone has got to be made, so your wasting your time praying to someone that does not exist(your actually talking to yourself) there is NO ONE that is going to chance my mind, when your dead, your dead and yes there is a place we go when we die..it's called THE GROUND
Yes, I agree with you that when we die, our bodies do get put in the ground. However, I do believe our souls (believers in God) are immediately with God. I don't feel I'm wasting my time praying to the Lord. I get that you don't agree with my beliefs - that's okay. You have your opinion about this and we should agree to just disagree about what we believe/don't believe. I'm not trying to change your mind and as well, you won't change my mind. The first chapter of John in the Bible tells us that God has always been. That's a concept that even I don't understand - how can God already be? I have to remember that His ways and thoughts are much higher than mine. But I do feel that question will be answered, among others, when I meet Him one day.
Now dont go annoying him with a thousand questions the second you walk thru the pearly gates. He is liable to get fed up, give you a thumbs down and send you along with the rest of us un-desirables. ;o)
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there just is no such thing as something that has always been, something has to create it. so therefore there is no such thing as a god unless it's a beautiful woman then maybe a goddess
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there just is no such thing as something that has always been, something has to create it. so therefore there is no such thing as a god unless it's a beautiful woman then maybe a goddess
Your statement is ignorant even from a purely naturalistic point of view.
When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/who_created_god.html
If the beginning of the universe marked the beginning of time then whatever caused the universe to exist, exists outside of time and therefore is infinite. Whether you want to say that that cause was God or go with the mother universe theory which makes some unobservable untestable unknowable universe infinite and churns out many universes, the FACT is that whatever the causal agent is IS infinite and that's science, not religion.
Also your statement contradicts itself because essentially your string of "creating agents" would be infinite. If everything has to be created then the time line of events never stops.
Who/what created the universe? (let's just say God for illustrative purposes)
Who/what created God? Aliens
Who/what created aliens? A combustion of chemicals
Who/what created the chemicals and caused combustion?
You see what I'm getting at? Either the sequence of creative agents is infinite (which is impossible and illogical) or there is a single creative agent that is itself infinite.
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Been reading all these comments and can't help but notice that those who don't believe in God are so angry at those who do. I love the Lord and am thankful for those who are willing to stand up for Him.
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Been reading all these comments and can't help but notice that those who don't believe in God are so angry at those who do. I love the Lord and am thankful for those who are willing to stand up for Him.
Maybe you should reread it with an unbiased pov. Considering this quote, you're obviously not.
If the beginning of the universe marked the beginning of time then whatever caused the universe to exist, exists outside of time and therefore is infinite.
Unless you have a time machine, this is completely unprovable and is based on a truckload of assumptions. Right here is where everything below this builds up way too high while having a very weak (arguably non-existant) foundation.
Whether you want to say that that cause was God or go with the mother universe theory which makes some unobservable untestable unknowable universe infinite and churns out many universes, the FACT is that whatever the causal agent is IS infinite and that's science, not religion.
A scientific hypothesis must be testable. For a hypothesis to be incorporated into a theory or turned into a law, it must be testable by experimentation or observation. If it is not testable, it remains only speculation.
This is far from science or religion. That's just a speculation with a obvious philosophy. Humans can't grasp the idea of infinite, but that does not mean that it is, without uncertainty, infinite. But there's absolutely no reason to sprinkle the christian god ontop of this (the link) to work in an agenda. Thus the whole "Can't prove it? Then it was my god!" I keep noticing with people here.
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Walks, thanks for the advice. :) However, I think there will be many ahead of me passing the info to me. But, I do have a lot of questions!!! :)
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Been reading all these comments and can't help but notice that those who don't believe in God are so angry at those who do. I love the Lord and am thankful for those who are willing to stand up for Him.
It's true it's not always easy to stand up and defend our beliefs in God. However, it's what He asks us to do in His Word.
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If the beginning of the universe marked the beginning of time then whatever caused the universe to exist, exists outside of time and therefore is infinite.
Unless you have a time machine, this is completely unprovable and is based on a truckload of assumptions. Right here is where everything below this builds up way too high while having a very weak (arguably non-existant) foundation.
If I had a time machine I could only go back as far as the point where the dimensions of time began to exist. The beginning of the universe. TIME began to exist at the time the universe came to exist therefore time did NOT exist before the universe. If time did not exist then whatever was before the universe was infinite.
Whether you want to say that that cause was God or go with the mother universe theory which makes some unobservable untestable unknowable universe infinite and churns out many universes, the FACT is that whatever the causal agent is IS infinite and that's science, not religion.
A scientific hypothesis must be testable. For a hypothesis to be incorporated into a theory or turned into a law, it must be testable by experimentation or observation. If it is not testable, it remains only speculation.
This is far from science or religion. That's just a speculation with a obvious philosophy. Humans can't grasp the idea of infinite, but that does not mean that it is, without uncertainty, infinite. But there's absolutely no reason to sprinkle the christian god ontop of this (the link) to work in an agenda. Thus the whole "Can't prove it? Then it was my god!" I keep noticing with people here.
Most scientists agree that time began to exist when the universe began to exist (no religion involved) That hypotheses has been tested and incorporated into a theory. It isn't speculation. And I quoted a line that spoke of NON religious scientists. Therefore I did not use my link to sprinkle God on top of anything. I didn't even try to prove anything about God with my post. I simply showed how saying nothing can be infinite is not even a statement made by the prominent atheist scientists!
What isn't science is asserting to know with proof, WHAT caused the big bang because science has no way to test it. No matter what a person believes beyond the big bang is a matter of speculation/faith. But if we can know that time began to exist, then we can make a logical assumption that before time began, whatever there was had NO BEGINNING AND NO CREATOR.
Seriously Falconer, if you didn't have such a problem where my sources are concerned, I don't think you would even have disagreed with what I said. If you do disagree, then please explain to me how something can be bound by time and the laws of cause and effect before it even began to exist? Instead of rolling your eyes at my link, answer the issue that is in question??
But don't look to Stephen Hawking George Ellis or Roger Penrose because they are the ones who tested the theory that time didn't exist until the big bang. So I'm pretty sure they are not ridiculous enough to turn around and say that whatever was before our universe isn't infinite. As a matter of fact I KNOW they wouldn't because the same ones are the ones who threw the idea out there for the multi verse idea. So THEY do not believe that everything requires a creator. Which means that the buck stops with something that is eternal.
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Quote from Sherene:
What isn't science is asserting to know with proof, WHAT caused the big bang because science has no way to test it. No matter what a person believes beyond the big bang is a matter of speculation/faith. But if we can know that time began to exist, then we can make a logical assumption that before time began, whatever there was had NO BEGINNING AND NO CREATOR.
I was going to respond and answer this particular answer to the comment of not being able to test the actual start of creation. You said it very well, Sherene. I responded in another thread about this also. For our world/galaxies/etc. to have come into existence there had to be some kind of intelligent creator. Things are too perfectly made and made to work together for there not to have been a creator.
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Although I of course agree with you Julie. I am, in this case, not referring to any intelligence. Only that it is illogical to say, even by a materialistic scientist perspective, to say that infinity is not possible. And that it has been proven that time had a beginning along with the universe.
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I would love to answer your questions if only we can PM each other but we can't :'(, I also left my laptop on the bus(in a bag) please flame me Falconor and every FC member period even Kolher(FC Admin).
Sorry, but I have no idea what this means, or what you are saying here...
I'm saying i'll love to answer your questions in private but we can't message each other through the Personal message system(PM).
@falconer: How do I delete info in the browser if I don't have the laptop?
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Well you have the ability to plan and i'm pretty sure you do well with the limited knowledge you have. I believe mapping out events is called quantum mechanics if you get good enough with probability skills. Now imagine God using that but to the 100000 trillionth power times another 100000 trillion
I actually am not doing too well at the moment. Not horrible or anything-- I'm making due and all and I'm in good health and shape. But it could be a lot better compared to my fantasy life. Aside from the cool forum with cool people, why do you think I'm on FC? lol
Even with planning things, the results I sometimes get could always be better. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say rarely do plans work perfectly. Even if I were to expontentially heighten my ability to plan into the trillions, I'd still be very imperfect.
Define pulls such an evil move, otherwise I agree on everything you just said.
Well when you have control over everything (including our 'free will') and you allow for horrid things to happen and also expel people into oblivion for eternity as many christians believe, that's completely evil. If this god is omniscient --knows you're going to end up in hell-- ultimately you're screwed from day one. I'll fall back on Epicurus's famous quote as I have time to time in the past-
http://maradon.makeitorky.com/epicurus_god.jpg
This reponse is to your first comment.
I know it was fake but i've seen an idiot savant on T.V. Who mastered quantum mechanics. She can roll a quarter on the floor and predict the outcome of what will happen from over 20 feet anyway. Her quantum mechanics were great but nowhere near exponential or infinite and see had 3 blind spots in the show.
Not the he knows it so you never had free will argument again, I already made the parent argument for that. Last time I checked God didn't force people to love him or hate him even if he already knew the outcome. As for he allowed the Devil to do this, I would like for someone to proof another person wrong before he/she gets punished.
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yes!!!! read the bible he (God) didnt ask you to do anyof that all he ask is the you belive in him it says "he that belive in me shall not peraish but erverlasting life".B.I.B.L.E. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth it is all in there it is simple u can say u belive but n beliveing in your heart is he is the creater of all yhings an he did die for our sins before we had no choice an he died to give us one so its up to you he also gave us free will. isnt that great with my mother and father i didnt have a choice with this fater i do an i choose CHRIST JESUS
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yes!!!! read the bible he (God) didnt ask you to do anyof that all he ask is the you belive in him it says "he that belive in me shall not peraish but erverlasting life".B.I.B.L.E. Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth it is all in there it is simple u can say u belive but n beliveing in your heart is he is the creater of all yhings an he did die for our sins before we had no choice an he died to give us one so its up to you he also gave us free will. isnt that great with my mother and father i didnt have a choice with this fater i do an i choose CHRIST JESUS
I choose Jesus toooooooooooooooooo ;D :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :thumbsup:
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i have to agree with you there shernajwine
i have been asking that question since i was 8 years old....if eveything needs a creator, then who created god, then who created it....it was laughed at for years, but as i got older i was told to not ask ?s, but i didnt stop i still asked still search, and eventually had gotten shuned by 3 churches for it, so that is when my search eventually led me to Paganism, which i am now supportive of both wiccan and celtic, but folloowing celtic mostly....
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Yes, unfortunately for you, He will. There is only one way through the gates of heaven, by accepting the Lord Jesus as the One who died for your & my sins. No matter how many good deeds you have done, if you don't admit that it was only by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ that enabled you to do the wonderful things you do, it will all be done in vanity and at the encouragement of satan. May the Holy Spirit burden your heart to learn more.
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i have to agree with you there shernajwine
i have been asking that question since i was 8 years old....if eveything needs a creator, then who created god, then who created it....it was laughed at for years, but as i got older i was told to not ask ?s, but i didnt stop i still asked still search, and eventually had gotten shuned by 3 churches for it, so that is when my search eventually led me to Paganism, which i am now supportive of both wiccan and celtic, but folloowing celtic mostly....
I don't know about other groups but I know that Jehovah's witnesses only reject questions if they think your trying to doubt the faith. I've asked all sorts of questions without doubting the faith, questions like why is astronomy signs in the book of job, what's the meaning of abstain from blood etc. You know big questions, nothing happened and I got answers wasn't shunned of anything.
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I've got two questions one is to travislang i thought that was just in a movie I would like to know more. an my next is for teflonfanatic what is "abstain from blood "
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well i grew up as jehovah witness, then went to mormon then babtists. was shuned by all 3 of them...obstaining from blood means, that if you need a blood transfusion you would have to deny the transfusion, even if it meant life or death...
and now what was only in movies, what did you want to know more about
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JESUS said---" I am the way, the truth and the light, NO ONE cometh to the FATHER EXCEPT BY ME!! "
Hey it is your choice to believe OR NOT to believe in the God of the BIBLE, the creator of Heaven and Earth. It is also your choice to BELIEVE or NOT to believe that He sent His son Jesus Christ to earth to die and pay the price for you and your sins, and that He rose from the dead on the third day, and is now seated at the right hand of THE FATHER God.-----I pray that you make the right choice. :wave: :wave:
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My good sir, what you profess is the idea that good works are the primary way to be saved, and most Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) see it as fallacious. It's called legalism.
Catholics believe that it is through faith AND good works that we come to salvation. (Many Protestants believe that faith alone can save, and that good works are a sign of living faith.) Faith and works are the sure path to Heaven as far as we know.
However, many Christians believe God to be merciful, "slow to anger, rich in kindness" (Psalm 145:8) and that He will repair our defects. Catholics believe the imperfect will go to Purgatory, where their souls shall be cleansed with fire (figuratively) so they may be able to go to Heaven. That might include non-Christians who have really looked for God and thought they'd found Him (or couldn't find Him).
Tell you what: go to Lourdes, France.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
I think it's interesting that you list things that would seem to benefit humanity on a global scale. But since you're so keen on having your good works measured in order to be saved lets look at each of these things.
Lets say you found a cure for cancer. It would cost billions of dollars to produce and distribute this cure. A cost which a large portion of society could not afford. So due to supply and demand, greed, and a broken health care system many many many people would not benefit from your cure. And would you take a profit from your cure? Could it then be considered a good work worth a ticket to eternity when you benefited so greatly from it? Yet so many people suffering did not?
Ending world hunger is less to do with food than it does with poverty. It is a political issue. One which you see waged in front of you in the media everyday. You will not solve world hunger without violating or harming another portion of society, example:
Food aid (when not for emergency relief) can actually be very destructive on the economy of the recipient nation and contribute to more hunger and poverty in the long term. Free, subsidized, or cheap food, below market prices undercuts local farmers, who cannot compete and are driven out of jobs and into poverty, further slanting the market share of the larger producers such as those from the US and Europe. Many poor nations are dependent on farming, and so such food "aid" amounts to food dumping. In the past few decades, more powerful nations have used this as a foreign policy tool for dominance rather than for real aid.
http://www.globalissues.org/issue/6/world-hunger-and-poverty
So how much good does it merit you with God if while helping one demographic you hurt another?
Educating Children.
This costs money. The more money you put into this, the more money comes from other government aid programs. After all, there is no NEW money, just shifted money whether borrowed from another country or moved from one program to another.
So what program would you sacrifice for this endeavor? Medicare? Social Security? Perhaps you would lower the standards of education worldwide so as to spread the funding around more but less into each area. Maybe you would vow that no person in the government get a single paycheck so as to have enough money for education. But oh wait then you would be in poverty and would cancel out your solving world hunger.
There is a reason none of these things have been done. These concepts are altruistic but unrealistic if you want to use them as some sort of measurement of good works. Each of these things being on a global scale, there is going to be bad along with good. And if you want to measure that to get into heaven, you may have a problem. I prefer to know that because I have faith, I act on my faith in goodwill toward men. My faith justifies me, my good works identify my faith.
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Sherene, you made some very excellent points here. In fact, there was a lot of research put into your answers. It's an eye opener when things like that are brought into perspective. I only hope they are read and taken to heart and help to answer the question put forth.
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Sherene, you made some very excellent points here. In fact, there was a lot of research put into your answers. It's an eye opener when things like that are brought into perspective. I only hope they are read and taken to heart and help to answer the question put forth.
;D Thanks. Although 502 is not on regularly and when he is on, he fails to read a lot of these posts and he only addresses the ones that he finds easy to rebut. At least from what I've seen. :confused1:
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Sherna, that is an excellent post.
I personally think that unless we consider it a noble and laudable act to be humble and selfless (as opposed to rich and powerful), the world will never get better. Democracy will not make the world better. Neither will capitalism. Neither religion nor irreligion will matter if neither side is charitable and selfless (although I think Christianity has a real advantage since God is the center of our universe, and we are commanded to love one another and God above all things).
You want Heaven? Accusing and complaining will not bring Heaven.
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why does it have to be christianity, do your research....pagans want the same thing. to love and coexest.. and if you look into the wiccan rede it says do as ye will as it harms none.....so again why christianity....but not to just boast my religion i do know some atheists that love each other and wish we just get along. i also know some satanists that love each other and wish we all get along....hell i mean go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around
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go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around
On a global scale? Nope, you won't find any such thing. And considering that the majority of outreach and crisis programs are Christian based it's quite a statement to imply that the beginning of Christianity somehow brought strife among people.
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go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around
On a global scale? Nope, you won't find any such thing. And considering that the majority of outreach and crisis programs are Christian based it's quite a statement to imply that the beginning of Christianity somehow brought strife among people.
source please?
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go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around
On a global scale? Nope, you won't find any such thing. And considering that the majority of outreach and crisis programs are Christian based it's quite a statement to imply that the beginning of Christianity somehow brought strife among people.
source please?
Unfortunately walks I read the specific statistics from some material I checked out from the library and I can't remember which source it was actually listed in. But I would say considering that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, a religion in which the believers are expected to help the poor hurt sick and dying, it would only make sense that the majority of the help programs are Christian based.
But here is a generic statistics report on global Christian activity that I found online. http://www.gordonconwell.edu/sites/default/files/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf
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go back far enough i am sure you will find a time that we all lived together in harmony until christianity came around
On a global scale? Nope, you won't find any such thing. And considering that the majority of outreach and crisis programs are Christian based it's quite a statement to imply that the beginning of Christianity somehow brought strife among people.
source please?
Unfortunately walks I read the specific statistics from some material I checked out from the library and I can't remember which source it was actually listed in. But I would say considering that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, a religion in which the believers are expected to help the poor hurt sick and dying, it would only make sense that the majority of the help programs are Christian based.
But here is a generic statistics report on global Christian activity that I found online. http://www.gordonconwell.edu/sites/default/files/StatusOfGlobalMission.pdf
I have found that if you hunt long enough, you can find a book that will say just about any thing you wish for.
In the real however, it is Christians and the Christian mindset that continues to commit the biggest genocide in history, with estimates running well over 10 million dead, and counting. Theses "believers" you reference are the reason for the Indigenous of many countries to be "poor, hurt, sick and dying".
As I have said, I don't lump you into this category but you are perhaps the exception that proves the rule. I think your statement is in error.
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I have no reason to doubt your word Mrs. Sherna, and do believe that you read such a claim however, I also believe that the author undoubtedly made the claim much in the same way as you just did...without any facts or credible evidence to back up the claim.
10 million can not be an accident.
Christians came to this continent and very soon millions died, were stripped of the livelyhoods they had work to posses, and in fact whole Nations along with their cultures became extinct. Coincidence? impossible.
Christians arrived in Australia.....same story.
South Africa....yes, unfortunately, very much the same and I could list many more locations and acts continuing up through present day.
I read yesterday that a group of Christians asked to visit the Elders center on the Pineridge reservation but then declined when they were respectfully asked to not bring bibles and use the unfortunate circumstances as an opportunity to attempt to assimilate more of our peoples.
These are a few of the last remaining "traditionals" who keep our culture from becoming a thing of the past, however I guess Christians will never be satisfied until there are no more NDNs and we are all simply Americans.
You will say that those who commit genocide are not true Christians. I say based on the words and acts of the doctrine encompassing its whole history, that yes, they are Christian and perhaps....you are just doing it wrong and contrary to the original intent of the inventors of the doctrine.
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The information I read from the library were books of religious statistics and included all religions plus non religious organizations that help the unfortunate. It was not authored by a religious person it was simply materials listing statistics.
Yes, there are Christians who committed horrible crimes against many people. I don't claim that there has ever been or will ever be a perfectly good Christian. However, the bible says you will know true Christians by their fruit. What is that fruit? Love, joy, peace, kindness. So I don't believe that Christians committing genocide are doing it right, I base that off the bible not my personal feelings. The bible describes what a Christian acts like and there are MANY who are like me, and many many countless more who are better than me. And there have been many countless true Christians throughout history. They are not few and far between, however how often do you read of all the good things Christians do? That's not hard hitting news, so you won't hear about it in the media too much.
I'm not trying to downplay the atrocities that have been committed by Christian peoples, but the numbers of atrocities attributed to Christians pales in comparison to others. In the 20th century democide related to religious conflict contributes approximately 2% of the total. That's religious conflict not just Christian conflict.
That statistic comes from http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM
Are there bad Christians? Absolutely. Most of those bad Christians, are bad with good intentions. Are there evil hearted, evil intentioned people who call themselves Christian? Absolutely. But don't confuse those with the rest of us.
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Quote from Walks:
These are a few of the last remaining "traditionals" who keep our culture from becoming a thing of the past, however I guess Christians will never be satisfied until there are no more NDNs and we are all simply Americans.
I would like to say here, that genuine Christians in the Lord do not wish to do away with NDN's. I'm proud of the fact that my great-great grandmother was married to a Cherokee Chief, which came down the line. And we need to always remember that Indians taught early settlers how to survive in this country.
There were groups in the past that, yes, they did attempt to bring or force the English or American or Christian cultures, including the Bible, onto them. I believe some of their hearts were in the right place, and perhaps it could have been handled differently so as to let them come to their own decisions in their own way and time. But, yes, I also feel there were some who were determined to "Americanize" the Indians, and to me that was wrong. The genuine Christians who really do care are those the Bible speak of as in showing their "fruit of love, peace, kindness, gentleness, patience, etc." I back Sherene in this, to not confuse those who abuse the name of "Christian" with those of us who are genuine Christians in the Lord.
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The way I see it is that those of our Nations who wish to sale out the Ancestors and disrespect the great sacrifices they made will come seeking your beliefs and the rest aren't interested so continually insisting on pressing them to assimilate is just plain rude at best.
Many of you will scream loudly about genetically modifying crops and will get all warm and fuzzy about endangered animals yet insist that we should change.
My belief is that ones culture and traditions are what defines them as a distinct people. Regardless of what amount of blood remains, when and if complete assimilation has been completed NDNs will be no more and all will, as I said, simply be Americans.
We insist on diversity in all things except people. Just think about that stance, what a sad state it will be if another one of our Nations are forced into extinction by any means including assimilation.
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The funny thing is.... out of EVERYONE who would take a "position" on this... if asked..... could not VERIFY ANYTHING..... but "their own" PERSONAL EXPERIENCES n BELIEFS!!! KNOW THIS FOLKS...... anything you cannot verify is FICTION to anyone else...... there is absolutely NO REASON to get "upset" or "worked up" about anyones FICTIONAL OPINIONS!!!
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The funny thing is.... out of EVERYONE who would take a "position" on this... if asked..... could not VERIFY ANYTHING..... but "their own" PERSONAL EXPERIENCES n BELIEFS!!! KNOW THIS FOLKS...... anything you cannot verify is FICTION to anyone else...... there is absolutely NO REASON to get "upset" or "worked up" about anyones FICTIONAL OPINIONS!!!
When a group of people have spent the last 500 plus years trying to force their "fiction" onto your people and the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations, then tell me there is nothing to get worked up about. Until then you do you, let everyone else do themselves and try to limit your "opinion" about issues you have absolutely no clue of.
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i have always thought that paganism was just n movies sumthing that was made up i have been to alot of churches an religions and im interested in learning more about it
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well walksalone i can see you are a very passionate about this subject with every rite i to feel that the settlers were in there actions but i don't blame it on the religion but i do blame it on miss communication of the word that was being given what was not communicated was that GOD gave us FREE WILL and what that means(that we have the CHOICE to BELIEVE or NOT to believe) i think that if the information was given correctly then there would have been a lot less killing of our people. :thumbsup:
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the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations
Firstly walks I wanna say that I do sympathize with the plight of your people. Indians are my people too, I have no proof but my great great grandfather on my mothers side was Indian. I don't know much about him, I can't even remember what tribe of Indian he was. But I have ancestors who were Indian and whatever small amount there is, Indian blood runs in my veins. Shame on me for not knowing more about my family history.
Secondly I want to point out that it is not the "beliefs" that are directly responsible for the deaths of any peoples in any type of democide. It is never about religion at it's heart but about power. In any event in history that involves the slaughtering of a race of people, it is a war of power. Sadly, some men justify their lust for power and the acts they commit to obtain power by using religion. Religion appeals to an emotion and if they stir up enough emotion in enough people they can create for themselves an army of weak minded emotionally manipulated fools to carry out their mission for them. They present an idea that implies a solution for a better world. While really, the truth is, they want power. They hide their lust for power behind religion.
That is exactly what happened with the settlers who came and senselessly slaughtered Indians. The government wanted power and control and they used religion to appeal to an emotion of the people who came to settle here. They were taught that people who don't follow Christianity are heathens, that Indians are savages and therefore their lives were not as important. The bible says no such a thing! How can it be a belief based on the bible??? It isn't.
Why was there slavery? Power and control. Why was there a holocaust? Power and control. Every war, every battle, every senseless slaughtering of people, every time, boils down to that. Power and control.
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the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations
Firstly walks I wanna say that I do sympathize with the plight of your people. Indians are my people too, I have no proof but my great great grandfather on my mothers side was Indian. I don't know much about him, I can't even remember what tribe of Indian he was. But I have ancestors who were Indian and whatever small amount there is, Indian blood runs in my veins. Shame on me for not knowing more about my family history.
Secondly I want to point out that it is not the "beliefs" that are directly responsible for the deaths of any peoples in any type of democide. It is never about religion at it's heart but about power. In any event in history that involves the slaughtering of a race of people, it is a war of power. Sadly, some men justify their lust for power and the acts they commit to obtain power by using religion. Religion appeals to an emotion and if they stir up enough emotion in enough people they can create for themselves an army of weak minded emotionally manipulated fools to carry out their mission for them. They present an idea that implies a solution for a better world. While really, the truth is, they want power. They hide their lust for power behind religion.
That is exactly what happened with the settlers who came and senselessly slaughtered Indians. The government wanted power and control and they used religion to appeal to an emotion of the people who came to settle here. They were taught that people who don't follow Christianity are heathens, that Indians are savages and therefore their lives were not as important. The bible says no such a thing! How can it be a belief based on the bible??? It isn't.
Why was there slavery? Power and control. Why was there a holocaust? Power and control. Every war, every battle, every senseless slaughtering of people, every time, boils down to that. Power and control.
Keep on boiling until you get to the base which is pure ego.
Regardless of whether it is contrary to doctrine or not, Christians continuing to act with attitudes of superiority and intolerance for others is the norm for the vast majority of them. Regardless of what the original intent was this is what it has become and it did so very very early in the life of the doctrine, therefor, right or wrong, defines the doctrine. If this is not the most common mindset of Christians why is it that I have never heard any of you guys out in the real speaking against the behavior?
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Just as in other kinds of cases of abuse (female/spouse abuse, child abuse, animal abuse etc etc) those who will know its happening and simply turn a blind eye are contributing to the enabling of the behavior. You may say it isnt the same as the body count continues to rise. Can anyone here even begin to comprehend what 10 million dead bodies would look like?
Will you speak against this today? No one here can say they don't know it is happening after all of the cases I have posted about. It's time for every single one of us to adopt a zero tolerance attitude of any kinds of abuse, otherwise we are all contributors.
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However, the bible says you will know true Christians by their fruit. What is that fruit? Love, joy, peace, kindness.
And again, there are many, many of us who are non-Christians and show those very same things in the way we choose to live - and MUCH better than many Christians. ;)
Sadly, some men justify their lust for power and the acts they commit to obtain power by using religion. Religion appeals to an emotion and if they stir up enough emotion in enough people they can create for themselves an army of weak minded emotionally manipulated fools to carry out their mission for them. They present an idea that implies a solution for a better world. While really, the truth is, they want power. They hide their lust for power behind religion.
And there you have the exact formula for today's growing Christian Coalition in politics. I don't think anyone, if they are being truthful, can deny this has happened and will continue to happen. Christians cry out and demand that this country follow "Separation of church and state" if it involves prayer being allowed in school (how dare anyone deny us that premise which our Founding Fathers deemed appropriate!), while at the same time have NO problem putting church and state together IF it will get them elected, push forth their agendas, and insure them the power to make policies which affect all of us who are NOT christians. The most hypocritical aspect in all of this? It is based on a 'supposed' morality we non-christians don't possess and that is a pile of crap! It doesn't matter if you know a damn thing about what a politician's stance is or have even a basic knowledge of constitutional rights. As long as you can claim you believe in God, have opened a Bible, or go to church, you know what you are doing when you cast your vote. Wrong!
This isn't directed at Sherna, anyone on here personally, just had to comment when I saw that part of the post I quoted.
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Keep on boiling until you get to the base which is pure ego.
I agree that ego is a big part of it. After all, what makes a man such as Hitler think he has to right to the power he seeks? Ego.
Christians continuing to act with attitudes of superiority and intolerance for others is the norm for the vast majority of them.
There are many intolerant Christians, and it may very well be that the vast majority of Christians exhibit intolerance toward sins they perceive as somehow unforgivable (like homosexuality). However, I doubt that the vast majority of them believe that genocide is acceptable. it's mostly personal prejudices they have and it's based off their own personal feelings not Christianity as a whole.
It's time for every single one of us to adopt a zero tolerance attitude of any kinds of abuse, otherwise we are all contributors.
I agree 100%.
I want to point out though that to be tolerant of someone or a group of people does not entail agreement with their lifestyle or beliefs. As a Christian I don't want to shove my beliefs down anyone's throat but as a Christian I find a burning desire to tell people what God has done for me so that they too may come to experience him. I'm not going to scream hellfire and damnation to anyone who disagrees with me but I'm not going to say it's okay to be an atheist or it's okay to practice witchcraft because I don't think it is okay. If that's what people mean by being intolerant than I suppose you are right, then most Christians are.
People have a right to chose how to live their life, I don't like when Jehovahs Witnesses come to my door to try and convert me so I can completely understand and sympathize with people caught in the path of an overly zealous Christian who won't take no for answer. I can sympathize with someone who has been criticized, judged, and bullied by a Christian who is holier than thou (I'm a Christian and have suffered judgment by Christians!).
If by tolerance you mean, holding my beliefs with dignity while respecting the boundaries and rights of others, then I have met, heard of, seen, and read about countless of those kinds of Christians.
Come visit me walks and you will have so many Christians loving on you, you won't know what to do with yourself lol. :heart:
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well said Sherna. It is amazing how us Christians are so intolerant when every non-Christians continues to make fun of us and call us names.
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well said Sherna. It is amazing how us Christians are so intolerant when every non-Christians continues to make fun of us and call us names.
Little One, I have not called anyone any names and most certainly am not making fun. 10 million dead is far from being any thing to laugh about. Let's put this in a context that I am more familiar with.
A.I.M. (American Indian Movement) has always made the claim that they are honorable warrior of the people, and preach about not drinking drugging etc, when in fact the original founders were a lawless bunch of thugs who used our issues as an excuse to whoop it up, raise hell and destroy much property. I know several members who are drunkards and some will use drugs or weed at Ceremony, when most of our Nations require participants to be completely clean for a certain numbers of days prior to Ceremony. A very good friend of mines, Mother was a member who was wrongly accused of being an informant and the leadership ordered her murder and lesser ranked members carried out the deed after torturing and raping her. Now, many people still support them and will argue to the end of time about how honorable they are etc, however, they never have been, judging from their deeds thru-out their history.
Same thing. you can name the book any thing you want, it's the words inside and the deeds encouraged that makes it what it truly is.
Mrs.Sherna, from what I can see on this forum is one of the better people I know of in regards to her compassion, tolerance and moral behavior, however, as I told her once before, I have always heard of these "good" Christians but always figured they were fantasy like unicorns etc, until she came along. Most do not behave in the ways that they claim is Christian.
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I think that goes with the majority of groups in the world though, Walks. You are never going to find a picture-perfect group without it's rotten apples. But I 100% agree that christianity has always been made up of a ludicrous amount of rotten apples and yet they think they're deserving of complete respect and tolerance.
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I think that goes with the majority of groups in the world though, Walks. You are never going to find a picture-perfect group without it's rotten apples. But I 100% agree that christianity has always been made up of a ludicrous amount of rotten apples and yet they think they're deserving of complete respect and tolerance.
You're right Bro, perfection will never be found however, why set our sights on less? Or use that as justification to assist in the enabling or white washing the issue?
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Quote from jordandog:
And there you have the exact formula for today's growing Christian Coalition in politics. I don't think anyone, if they are being truthful, can deny this has happened and will continue to happen. Christians cry out and demand that this country follow "Separation of church and state" if it involves prayer being allowed in school (how dare anyone deny us that premise which our Founding Fathers deemed appropriate!), while at the same time have NO problem putting church and state together IF it will get them elected, push forth their agendas, and insure them the power to make policies which affect all of us who are NOT christians. The most hypocritical aspect in all of this? It is based on a 'supposed' morality we non-christians don't possess and that is a pile of crap! It doesn't matter if you know a damn thing about what a politician's stance is or have even a basic knowledge of constitutional rights. As long as you can claim you believe in God, have opened a Bible, or go to church, you know what you are doing when you cast your vote. Wrong!
This isn't directed at Sherna, anyone on here personally, just had to comment when I saw that part of the post I quoted.
:cat:
Unfortunately, you are right in that there are many "Christians" who use religion to get their votes in politics. There are just as many who act the "Christian" when they are not for the same reasons. Once they are in their facade is seen. I disagree with both types. What ever has happened to plain good old honesty and plans best for the country and the people put forth to the people for a vote? It's very rare and it just seems it gets harder to vote because you don't know if they are lying or not.
I do believe very much so that it doesn't matter if someone is moral and good in their ways - Christians and non-Christians both can be moral and good. There are some who don't believe that like you said and to me that is wrong. None of us is any better than anyone else put here on this earth. I know some of the kindest people who do so much for others as well who are not Christians. I'm no different than them as far as people are concerned and what our constitutional rights are. I know Christians here in my town (well, they say they are and they attend one of the biggest churches in this small town) who look down on members who go to the smaller churches (country-type) just because they can't afford to offer the many programs the bigger church can offer, because of the way they dress or maybe look, or because a lot of the kids are attending the small church because the bus comes by and picks them up. They are usually labeled "bus kids" or "troublemakers", etc. Just because these smaller church people don't dress fancy, the kids wear jeans because that's all they have, they are looked down on. To me that is wrong. Those "bigger" church members, if they are genuine Christians, are no different, from the "smaller" church members. And in fact, the "smaller" church members are many times way much friendlier and make visitors to feel more welcome. Are the "bigger" church members really Christians or are they using it to their advantage like politicians like to do?
I'm sorry if I have rambled on - I didn't even intend on saying any more, but it just gets my goat when certain so-called Christians use religion to get votes, look down on others less fortunate, or cut down perfectly nice non-Christians, etc. I work with some of those church kids and will stand up for them anytime they need me to. And one more thing, my hubby worked in management for a few years before retiring a couple of years ago. He always said that it was amazing to him the difference between some of the non-Christians and Christians who worked for him. Not all, but some. He said several of the non-Christians were always more flexible about changes in their work schedule, going to help someone who needed help even if it meant they got a little behind in their own numbers, and didn't gripe near as much when they had to work overtime.
There are a lot of loving Christians out there, but there are a lot in sheep's clothing that are really wolves just waiting to take advantage of others. Those make it bad for genuine Christians and wonderful non-Christians both. Thanks for letting me vent. :)
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walksalone has a point. even though i don't believe in god, i don't condemn or look down on those who do, i think it's great that people believe in whatever they do, that's what makes everyone different. i aspire to be like them one day, either i'll end up being christian or muslim, still on the fence about it right now.
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Honestly I have been shocked in the past by what I expected from Christian people and what I actually saw from them. When I worked as a server at a restaurant on Sundays, after morning service let out we had a lunch rush and you could tell normally the people that had just come from church. Ladies wearing dresses and hats and men wearing their nice suits, kids dressed up....you know. And I approach these tables thinking here are some kindred spirits just having come from church, (I know when I leave church I am in the best mood of the week and I just want to hug everybody I see!) and yet........
These were some of the rudest, short tempered, snobby people that came in the restaurant! And they tipped crap. I couldn't believe it lol. Obviously that's not all Christians behavior because I myself never tip less than 5 even if it's just a cup of coffee and even if I get horrible service I leave a 15% tip. I know what it's like to be in that industry and it's difficult, I hated it and I just can't bear to leave my table knowing my server may have kids to support and God only knows what going in their life. And the majority of my family and friends feel the same as I do.
None the less, I just don't understand people like that. :angry7:
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well, then since we looking at the facts lets look at the bible. if you read the bible im sure you would have to agree that it says no where that gay or lesbian is a sin, yet christians say it is...also it does mention that incest is ok only when it suites gods purpose, that is a bit to faced dont you think not to mention wrong....it also states jesus forgiving a prostitute, but so many today look down on them and talk badly about them. it also states that we are to love each other but why are so many christian leaders supporting war and making war in gods name....why is it that the christian kill so many people, and stole land from any one that wasnt christian.
i am sorry but history proves and the bible proves that christianity is what is wrong with this world, look at the facts again...
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i am sorry but history proves and the bible proves that christianity is what is wrong with this world, look at the facts again...
I don't think you have looked at the facts sir. The bible does say homosexuality is a sin (although some argue the interpretation of the words, a man laying with a man as with a woman is unnatural) but those words are in the bible. Incest is not okay, and Jesus did forgive a prostitute, he forgives every kind of sin. War is unfortunate but necessary in some cases. When evil men with evil plans attempt to oppress people in their lust for power, it is necessary that surrounding nations aid the oppressed in gaining back their freedom. Initially there are pleas for peace but when parties refuse, war ensues.
You seem to have limited knowledge of the bible and an unrealistic view of world peace, on top of the fact that you are willfully ignorant in your opinion of Christianity because I posted statistics and posted links to my statistics showing the effect of religious related conflicts in the 20th century and you apparently didn't feel the need to bother with it and stuck to you opinion. That my friend is rather closed minded I must say.
And on a personal note, Jesus is the best thing that ever happened to me. And I'm not alone in the world to say so. So a great deal many other people within the 2.1 billion Christians on the planet currently, would disagree with your statement.
So unless you want to debate fairly by actually reading peoples' posts and sources then I'm politely declining to respond to you on these matters further. :peace:
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i have to say i did, and yes incest is ok even in bible terms....if not ok then how did we all get here, if there is no record of god creating anyone but adam and eve. for us to be here today adam and eve would have to commit incest which was ok because it suited god at the time.....now again when god destroyed his children with the flood, only noahs and his family was left, so again for us to be here they would have to commit incest which is ok again because it suites gods porpose, so again anything that is a sin is wrong to do unless god says its ok.....
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i have to say i did, and yes incest is ok even in bible terms....if not ok then how did we all get here, if there is no record of god creating anyone but adam and eve. for us to be here today adam and eve would have to commit incest which was ok because it suited god at the time.....now again when god destroyed his children with the flood, only noahs and his family was left, so again for us to be here they would have to commit incest which is ok again because it suites gods porpose, so again anything that is a sin is wrong to do unless god says its ok.....
Ok well I apologize if you did read my sources and posts. Then it appears you hold your opinion despite evidence to the contrary. That's also closed minded but you have a right to your opinion. So I won't argue that point.
As for incest. It is important to distinguish between incestuous relationships prior to God commanding against them (Leviticus 18:6-18), and incest that occurred after God’s commands had been revealed. Until God commanded against it, it was not incest. It was just marrying a close relative.It is undeniable that God allowed incest in the early centuries of humanity. If Adam and Eve were indeed the only two human beings God created, their sons and daughters would have had no other choice but to marry and reproduce with their siblings and close relatives. The second generation would have had to marry their cousins, just as after the flood the grandchildren of Noah would have had to intermarry amongst their cousins. The reason incest is so strongly discouraged in the world today is the understanding that reproduction between closely related individuals has a much higher risk of causing genetic abnormalities. In the early days of humanity, though, this was not a risk due to the fact that the human genetic code was relatively free of defects. http://www.gotquestions.org/incest-in-the-Bible.html
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and yes i do hold my opinions dear.....just as you do....but understand please i am not bashing youfor believeing what you do believe. i am glad you found comfort in christianity. but i do ask in return to see the points of others as well....it is known history fact that christianity also hunted down and killed people of my religion and also to this day preach against my religion, i am pagan and yes a witch as well. i know this to be true for i was at one time a christian and a minister. but cold not any longer preach such lies out of good faith due to my personal opinions and research....and yes i also do think that the research you have done and provided is good but also it is biased toward the christian way of thinking.
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The funny thing is.... out of EVERYONE who would take a "position" on this... if asked..... could not VERIFY ANYTHING..... but "their own" PERSONAL EXPERIENCES n BELIEFS!!! KNOW THIS FOLKS...... anything you cannot verify is FICTION to anyone else...... there is absolutely NO REASON to get "upset" or "worked up" about anyones FICTIONAL OPINIONS!!!
When a group of people have spent the last 500 plus years trying to force their "fiction" onto your people and the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations, then tell me there is nothing to get worked up about. Until then you do you, let everyone else do themselves and try to limit your "opinion" about issues you have absolutely no clue of.
Before I end up making any..... well.... ASSUMPTIONS.... I'd try to VERIFY even your seemingly emotional STATEMENTS.... with a few mere questions of course!!!!
Are you suggesting that the actual attempt to "force" fiction on a group of people... is "RESPONSIBLE" for anyone's death...?
Are you suggesting that any of my OWN opinions.... do NOT "let everyone do themselves".... or that they somehow pass any judgements...?
What "issue"... are you suggesting I have "no clue of" to begin with...?
Are you suggesting that creating a "limit" for my OPINIONS... will in some way create some type of REMEDY.....??
If so..... What are the DAMAGES caused by a "limitless" opinion... that would need such a remedy...?
Whatever your answers are.... wouldn't it seem quite "insane" for me to JUDGE your standing... place a LABEL(right/wrong) on it... and decide to cause you DAMAGES behind it...?
Why exactly is it NOT ok for ANYONE to have these same opinions of RELIGION....?
Do even their opinions cause any DAMAGES to anyone.... by just being DIFFERENT???
Is it possible that it's NOT the belief/opinion itself that "damages" someone... but the ACTIONS taken "in the name" of these beliefs/opinions...??
What is the IMPORTANCE in trying to convince someone else of your beliefs...??
Is it possible that the VIOLENCE that may occur due to a "difference of opinion".... may have an original MOTIVE based on CONTROL....??
Is it possible that NITHER opinion or belief system or any RELIGION is NECESSARY for having an original motive for CONTROL....????
Is it possible that many people have placed BLAME(judgement) on different opinions... for many UNDESIREABLE EVENTS and MOTIVES.... that needed only human will....????
-jussathought-
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and yes i do hold my opinions dear.....just as you do....but understand please i am not bashing youfor believeing what you do believe. i am glad you found comfort in christianity. but i do ask in return to see the points of others as well....it is known history fact that christianity also hunted down and killed people of my religion and also to this day preach against my religion, i am pagan and yes a witch as well. i know this to be true for i was at one time a christian and a minister. but cold not any longer preach such lies out of good faith due to my personal opinions and research....and yes i also do think that the research you have done and provided is good but also it is biased toward the christian way of thinking.
I do see the points of others, just because I can listen to and understand others religious or non religious beliefs does not mean I accept them or agree with them.
Yes Christianity preaches against witchcraft because it is against our faith to practice it. There are groups of Christians who took it too far and took it upon themselves to go witch hunting, that does not represent every other Christian nor even necessarily the majority.
I read materials and view media from every point of view. A statistic is based on numbers not opinions. My research on the statistics of religious conflicts are not biased it is simply a number.
Your mistake along with many others is taking all the bad things Christians have done, along with your own personal negative experience and lumping all Christianity together. That is dishonest and unfair. You are entitled to your opinion but when you make statements so broad as to say that Christianity is the worst thing that ever happened to the world you put me, a person you have never met, and have no place to judge, in that statement.
You may say, "Hey don't take it personally" But what if I said all people who practice witchcraft worship the devil and sacrifice children. You give me statistics and sources saying it isn't the case and I say your statistic and source is biased and therefore I assume that because you practice witchcraft you worship the devil and sacrifice children.
Despite not having met you, knowing practically nothing about you, I make a judgment about you and your faith and then extend my biased opinion of your faith to every single person like you.
I'm sorry sir but when you make statements like you did, you are bashing my religion. And since my faith is personal to me, you are bashing what I believe. Maybe it was not your intention but that is exactly what you did. :dontknow:
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The funny thing is.... out of EVERYONE who would take a "position" on this... if asked..... could not VERIFY ANYTHING..... but "their own" PERSONAL EXPERIENCES n BELIEFS!!! KNOW THIS FOLKS...... anything you cannot verify is FICTION to anyone else...... there is absolutely NO REASON to get "upset" or "worked up" about anyones FICTIONAL OPINIONS!!!
When a group of people have spent the last 500 plus years trying to force their "fiction" onto your people and the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations, then tell me there is nothing to get worked up about. Until then you do you, let everyone else do themselves and try to limit your "opinion" about issues you have absolutely no clue of.
Before I end up making any..... well.... ASSUMPTIONS.... I'd try to VERIFY even your seemingly emotional STATEMENTS.... with a few mere questions of course!!!!
Are you suggesting that the actual attempt to "force" fiction on a group of people... is "RESPONSIBLE" for anyone's death...?
Are you suggesting that any of my OWN opinions.... do NOT "let everyone do themselves".... or that they somehow pass any judgements...?
What "issue"... are you suggesting I have "no clue of" to begin with...?
Are you suggesting that creating a "limit" for my OPINIONS... will in some way create some type of REMEDY.....??
If so..... What are the DAMAGES caused by a "limitless" opinion... that would need such a remedy...?
Whatever your answers are.... wouldn't it seem quite "insane" for me to JUDGE your standing... place a LABEL(right/wrong) on it... and decide to cause you DAMAGES behind it...?
Why exactly is it NOT ok for ANYONE to have these same opinions of RELIGION....?
Do even their opinions cause any DAMAGES to anyone.... by just being DIFFERENT???
Is it possible that it's NOT the belief/opinion itself that "damages" someone... but the ACTIONS taken "in the name" of these beliefs/opinions...??
What is the IMPORTANCE in trying to convince someone else of your beliefs...??
Is it possible that the VIOLENCE that may occur due to a "difference of opinion".... may have an original MOTIVE based on CONTROL....??
Is it possible that NITHER opinion or belief system or any RELIGION is NECESSARY for having an original motive for CONTROL....????
Is it possible that many people have placed BLAME(judgement) on different opinions... for many UNDESIREABLE EVENTS and MOTIVES.... that needed only human will....????
-jussathought-
Ok Dorkbudd, that made my head hurt trying to understand what you were asking in some of them questions, but I will answer a few but briefly for now as I had oral surgery today and really don't feel up to lengthy debate at this time.
yes
yes
genocide
no and n/a
the rest will have to wait for another time
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A common question.
That's a topic for 'one's works'. And believe it or not, the Bible mentions it! It's one thing to ask a question, but let's be sure we aren't answering it ourselves (forming an opinion before even researching the answer).
Scripture makes it clear that works alone will not 'reserve your spot in heaven'.
“NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5)
There is nothing we can do to earn God's grace - He gives it us! How can we say 'But God, I just cured cancer. Doesn't that count?' Of course, if you were to ever do such a thing that would be amazing and wonderful, but changes nothing. There are many people who do amazing things everyday, but if we could 'earn' our way through the door..I think a LOT of people wouldn't come close. Understand His grace and how He wants to be apart of your life. Focus on that, is my suggestion. Because then, I believe, you'll do those works in His name.
I guess it all comes down to understanding the Lord. Without that, we'll ask a lot of questions that already has answers and think the wrong things that are not written and just turn against our Lord altogether simply because we did not understand.
"Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding, but a rod is for the back of him who is devoid of understanding." (Proverb 10:13)
I strongly recommend you to look into this further, IF you really want to learn and are interested in ways of understanding the Lord and seeking heaven. However, if you only care to live your life in whatever fashion of your desire..Then there's no reason to speak of what you believe God wants when you don't even understand. (It's kind of like having an opinion of a research paper without actually doing the research!)
Hope that helps!
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wow I have nothing to say
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It makes totally zero sense to use the bible as a credible reference unless Christians are the only people debating a subject. Honestly, you might as well quote Dr. Suess.
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It makes totally zero sense to use the bible as a credible reference unless Christians are the only people debating a subject. Honestly, you might as well quote Dr. Suess.
Well walks 502 addressed this thread to Christians and Christians use the bible. So in this instance quoting Dr. Suess would not have answered 502's question.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
The point isn't just to do good, but to also do God's will. To honor Him in everything you do and realize he is the one who blessed you and gave you the opportunity to do those things, and to try to spread that word in at least some small way.
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It makes totally zero sense to use the bible as a credible reference unless Christians are the only people debating a subject. Honestly, you might as well quote Dr. Suess.
If someone directs a post to Christians and wants them to answer a question about Christianity it seems only logical they would expect the Bible to be used in the response.
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It makes totally zero sense to use the bible as a credible reference unless Christians are the only people debating a subject. Honestly, you might as well quote Dr. Suess.
If someone directs a post to Christians and wants them to answer a question about Christianity it seems only logical they would expect the Bible to be used in the response.
Sorry Mack, the OP was posted to Xtians, we are now on page 15 and the bible references I am referring to, were directed to NON-christians so no....it makes no sense at all in my opinion.
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Lol my bad walks. I must have misread the post :)
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A common question.
That's a topic for 'one's works'. And believe it or not, the Bible mentions it! It's one thing to ask a question, but let's be sure we aren't answering it ourselves (forming an opinion before even researching the answer).
Scripture makes it clear that works alone will not 'reserve your spot in heaven'.
“NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5)
There is nothing we can do to earn God's grace - He gives it us! How can we say 'But God, I just cured cancer. Doesn't that count?' Of course, if you were to ever do such a thing that would be amazing and wonderful, but changes nothing. There are many people who do amazing things everyday, but if we could 'earn' our way through the door..I think a LOT of people wouldn't come close. Understand His grace and how He wants to be apart of your life. Focus on that, is my suggestion. Because then, I believe, you'll do those works in His name.
I guess it all comes down to understanding the Lord. Without that, we'll ask a lot of questions that already has answers and think the wrong things that are not written and just turn against our Lord altogether simply because we did not understand.
"Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has understanding, but a rod is for the back of him who is devoid of understanding." (Proverb 10:13)
I strongly recommend you to look into this further, IF you really want to learn and are interested in ways of understanding the Lord and seeking heaven. However, if you only care to live your life in whatever fashion of your desire..Then there's no reason to speak of what you believe God wants when you don't even understand. (It's kind of like having an opinion of a research paper without actually doing the research!)
Hope that helps!
Hi, JuletLindo. I noticed you are new in here and would like to first say hi and it's nice to "meet" you! I like what you said in your post. It was written with good points and very eloquently.
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Lol my bad walks. I must have misread the post :)
Ooooooook.....you can come out of the corner now ;o)
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ok well it is clear by a certain some one christianity is the way to go and the supreme law of the land, and i and and anyone else thinking otherwise is nothing more then devel worshipers who sacrifice children.
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ok well it is clear by a certain some one christianity is the way to go and the supreme law of the land, and i and and anyone else thinking otherwise is nothing more then devel worshipers who sacrifice children.
I'm not sure who you are directing your comment to, but that is certainly not what I think about you or anyone else who may not believe as I do. You are cutting non-christians down with your comment, as well.
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ok well it is clear by a certain some one christianity is the way to go and the supreme law of the land, and i and and anyone else thinking otherwise is nothing more then devel worshipers who sacrifice children.
Are you Wiccan? The beauty of religious faiths is there always a person who came from X believe or faith. I know a Jehovah's witness who is an ex Wiccan, catholic, pentecost etc. I'm going to ask the Ex Wiccan some questions to see if I can understand your "mental framework", I watched the craft 8 years ago however 0_0.
I have a question for people who believe in salvation through faith and not good works or both like it should be ???!!!
If you believe in Jesus and still unrepentendly have sex and kids out of wedlock, kill, run slavery rings will you still be saved? Where judged by faith not works right?
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
I have a question for people who believe in salvation through faith and not good works or both like it should be !!!
If you believe in Jesus and still unrepentendly have sex and kids out of wedlock, kill, run slavery rings will you still be saved? Where judged by faith not works right?
I would first have to ask the person if they are really saved by salvation in the Lord, or the idea of them asking but not really believing in the Lord, or were they saved and have done some major backsliding. Secondly, the list of things done by supposed person/s are not works for the Lord - those are done in their own doing. I know I've answered something similar to this before, and I remember Sherene patiently answering this same question several times as well. If a person genuinely believes in the Lord and sincerely is living for the Lord, even though the human part of us is prone to sin, I can't see a person like that committing some of the crimes you mentioned. However, we have to remember, too, that in God's eyes sin is sin, no matter what it is that is done. A Christian, as well, can receive forgiveness from God if it's truly repented of themselves. They will still serve the penalty here on earth, such as probation, jail, community work, prison, etc., but they will be forgiven by God. However, if they continue in crimes then I would have to really suspect that perhaps they were never saved by salvation in the first place.
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
I have a question for people who believe in salvation through faith and not good works or both like it should be !!!
If you believe in Jesus and still unrepentendly have sex and kids out of wedlock, kill, run slavery rings will you still be saved? Where judged by faith not works right?
I would first have to ask the person if they are really saved by salvation in the Lord, or the idea of them asking but not really believing in the Lord, or were they saved and have done some major backsliding. Secondly, the list of things done by supposed person/s are not works for the Lord - those are done in their own doing. I know I've answered something similar to this before, and I remember Sherene patiently answering this same question several times as well. If a person genuinely believes in the Lord and sincerely is living for the Lord, even though the human part of us is prone to sin, I can't see a person like that committing some of the crimes you mentioned. However, we have to remember, too, that in God's eyes sin is sin, no matter what it is that is done. A Christian, as well, can receive forgiveness from God if it's truly repented of themselves. They will still serve the penalty here on earth, such as probation, jail, community work, prison, etc., but they will be forgiven by God. However, if they continue in crimes then I would have to really suspect that perhaps they were never saved by salvation in the first place.
Since where born in sin from the get go, you have to admit it takes some work to try to live a wholesome christian life and not have sex with the stripper you just met at a club or watch soft *bleep* music videos for hours right? They are Works for "the lord" because this is refusing to fornicate and stay away from lust.
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i am following celtic, but also wiccan a little. wiccan akes there teaching from the celtics, just added mor herbal and candles and incence to the works then celtics do...
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and i grew up as a jehovah witness, but got shuned
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and i grew up as a jehovah witness, but got shuned
Hmm DF'ed? Probably no point in asking you the reason since you probably feel it was unnecessary.
@Jcribb: What did Paul mean when he said fellow WORKERS to Aquilla and priscilla in Romans 16:3?
P.S. The word work appears 92 times in the NT alone.
Reference work * secret bible encyclopedia* ;D
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
I have a question for people who believe in salvation through faith and not good works or both like it should be !!!
If you believe in Jesus and still unrepentendly have sex and kids out of wedlock, kill, run slavery rings will you still be saved? Where judged by faith not works right?
I would first have to ask the person if they are really saved by salvation in the Lord, or the idea of them asking but not really believing in the Lord, or were they saved and have done some major backsliding. Secondly, the list of things done by supposed person/s are not works for the Lord - those are done in their own doing. I know I've answered something similar to this before, and I remember Sherene patiently answering this same question several times as well. If a person genuinely believes in the Lord and sincerely is living for the Lord, even though the human part of us is prone to sin, I can't see a person like that committing some of the crimes you mentioned. However, we have to remember, too, that in God's eyes sin is sin, no matter what it is that is done. A Christian, as well, can receive forgiveness from God if it's truly repented of themselves. They will still serve the penalty here on earth, such as probation, jail, community work, prison, etc., but they will be forgiven by God. However, if they continue in crimes then I would have to really suspect that perhaps they were never saved by salvation in the first place.
Since where born in sin from the get go, you have to admit it takes some work to try to live a wholesome christian life and not have sex with the stripper you just met at a club or watch soft *bleep* music videos for hours right? They are Works for "the lord" because this is refusing to fornicate and stay away from lust.
I can't speak for anyone else but me, but I wouldn't be visiting a stripper club or buying/leasing soft *bleep* videos in the first place. To follow up on the desire to do that is already going too far. I don't consider them "works" for the Lord if I put myself in that position of temptatation from the get-go.
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
@Jcribb: What did Paul mean when he said fellow WORKERS to Aquilla and priscilla in Romans 16:3?
In Romans 16 Paul greets several people, with the most notable of these being Priscilla and Aquila. Both Aquila and Priscilla were in Rome until about AD 49 when Claudius expelled all the Jews from the city (Acts 18:2). Paul met the couple when he came to Corinth (ca. AD 51). They did further ministry in Ephesus (Acts 18:19) around ca. AD 53. From there they went to Rome. It is likely that they were not the first ones to bring the gospel to Rome. A church was probably already established as it is noted that Paul greets the church that met in the their house (16:5).
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/intros/romans.cfm)
They were fellow workers in the cause of spreading the gospel of Christ throughout Rome. They were more known than others and apparently they had church in their home for Christians.
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ok well it is clear by a certain some one christianity is the way to go and the supreme law of the land, and i and and anyone else thinking otherwise is nothing more then devel worshipers who sacrifice children.
Are you Wiccan? The beauty of religious faiths is there always a person who came from X believe or faith. I know a Jehovah's witness who is an ex Wiccan, catholic, pentecost etc. I'm going to ask the Ex Wiccan some questions to see if I can understand your "mental framework", I watched the craft 8 years ago however 0_0.
I have a question for people who believe in salvation through faith and not good works or both like it should be ???!!!
If you believe in Jesus and still unrepentendly have sex and kids out of wedlock, kill, run slavery rings will you still be saved? Where judged by faith not works right?
Oh, well, watching The Craft makes you an expert on Wicca. ::)
Having sex and kids without being married is wrong? Geez...if I wasn't already hellbound, I'd totes be worried, since my husband and I got married when our daughter was 8 months old. My poor rabbi, since he did her naming ceremony two months before we got married and actually performed the marriage ceremony.
Judgment comes in all forms. Be careful what you say, lest you offend.
For those concerned about works vs. faith:
Try googling the Noachide laws.
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yes it was wrong i think but i got shuned for joining the army
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yes it was wrong i think but i got shuned for joining the army
Mr. Travis, it is wrong. Why? Let's just say that you made the right choice in wanting to serve your country and potentially save people's lives versus staying with a group that does absolutely nothing for this land but go around annoying people on saturday/sunday mornings. I salute you, good sir.
Just remember-- JW's think war is completely wrong and that they shouldn't serve in any military. Little do they realize is that their little religion would have never existed if it wasn't for a specific war that granted us religious freedom.
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falcon
yes i do realize this....but i was laid off work, lost my house, my car, couldnt take care of my wife, jehovah witnesses just told me to pray, but that wasnt paying bills. i had no education, but high school, fresh out of high school. so i did talk to a recruiter to see options, they promised me a steady paycheck, a house and free health insurance, so yes i took it and did 7 years 3 years in iraq, 3 years in germany, 1 year here.....i am proud that i did, my family refuses to talk to me to this day for it, and not wanting to try to go back to the religion....and that i found my own beliefs and my own way(pagan)...which is also a big no-no in jehovah witnesses.....
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JESUS said---" I am the way, the truth and the light, NO ONE cometh to the FATHER EXCEPT BY ME!! "
Hey it is your choice to believe OR NOT to believe in the God of the BIBLE, the creator of Heaven and Earth. It is also your choice to BELIEVE or NOT to believe that He sent His son Jesus Christ to earth to die and pay the price for you and your sins, and that He rose from the dead on the third day, and is now seated at the right hand of THE FATHER God.-----I pray that you make the right choice. :wave: :wave:
Well said Amen
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falcon
yes i do realize this....but i was laid off work, lost my house, my car, couldnt take care of my wife, jehovah witnesses just told me to pray, but that wasnt paying bills. i had no education, but high school, fresh out of high school. so i did talk to a recruiter to see options, they promised me a steady paycheck, a house and free health insurance, so yes i took it and did 7 years 3 years in iraq, 3 years in germany, 1 year here.....i am proud that i did, my family refuses to talk to me to this day for it, and not wanting to try to go back to the religion....and that i found my own beliefs and my own way(pagan)...which is also a big no-no in jehovah witnesses.....
Your family and the JW's refuse to talk to you because you either directly killed for the Government or aided in directly killing for the Government. But right now you don't feel like trying to go back for now.
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yes i do realize this....but i was laid off work, lost my house, my car, couldnt take care of my wife, jehovah witnesses just told me to pray, but that wasnt paying bills. i had no education, but high school, fresh out of high school. so i did talk to a recruiter to see options, they promised me a steady paycheck, a house and free health insurance, so yes i took it and did 7 years 3 years in iraq, 3 years in germany, 1 year here.....i am proud that i did, my family refuses to talk to me to this day for it, and not wanting to try to go back to the religion....and that i found my own beliefs and my own way(pagan)...which is also a big no-no in jehovah witnesses.....
I'm honestly very glad it worked out for you. And I know it's difficult, but don't take your family's "shunning" too personally. It's nothing more than a bullying technique employed by a high-controlling belief system. Hopefully one day they'll wise up and realize what they're doing. I was lucky enough to be given the choice to leave when I was 15-16. My parents disassociated themselves a few years back for various reasons. Glad they did.
Your family and the JW's refuse to talk to you because you either directly killed for the Government or aided in directly killing for the Government.
With this reasoning, Over 20% of your taxes fund this too. Unless the JW's put their money where their mouth is and become something akin to the Amish, the hypocrisy is staggering.
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ok well it is clear by a certain some one christianity is the way to go and the supreme law of the land, and i and and anyone else thinking otherwise is nothing more then devel worshipers who sacrifice children.
This is how I know you are not really reading posts. Either that or you are not comprehending them. Because those words with that meaning were typed by me. I used those things as an example to turn the tables on you to show you how your comments on the Christianity were coming across.
But if you want to play the victim to feel better, go ahead :thumbsup:
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yes it was wrong i think but i got shuned for joining the army
Mr. Travis, it is wrong. Why? Let's just say that you made the right choice in wanting to serve your country and potentially save people's lives versus staying with a group that does absolutely nothing for this land but go around annoying people on saturday/sunday mornings. I salute you, good sir.
Just remember-- JW's think war is completely wrong and that they shouldn't serve in any military. Little do they realize is that their little religion would have never existed if it wasn't for a specific war that granted us religious freedom.
That is exactly right! Freedom doesn't come without sacrifices and unfortunately those sacrifices come in the form of people who are willing to put their life on the line to fight for it. I think it is beyond sad that a person would be shunned for wanting to do something so noble. :(
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yes you are right it isnt free, i lost my family for it, that is the price i paid for it....
yes i did read the posts though, why you seem to continue to think i did not read the post i dont understand, i know that is what you said, so i was simply using your words, not my words.
but clearly you dont read the posts though, unless you just dont wanna exept my sencere apoligies for the way i was talking.....if you dont wanna accept it is fine with me but could atleast let me know....
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yes you are right it isnt free, i lost my family for it, that is the price i paid for it....
yes i did read the posts though, why you seem to continue to think i did not read the post i dont understand, i know that is what you said, so i was simply using your words, not my words.
but clearly you dont read the posts though, unless you just dont wanna exept my sencere apoligies for the way i was talking.....if you dont wanna accept it is fine with me but could atleast let me know....
I accept your apology. It's hard to consider it sincere when you followed it up with another comment about how horrible my religion is and tried to say you weren't trying to bash it. But it doesn't matter to me really. Plenty of ugly generalized comments about my religion and people that believe in God have been made and continue to be made. I was only trying to point out that you wouldn't appreciate it if I, or anyone else, made generalized ugly comments about your religion or beliefs.
So apology accepted. This is a forum of public speech so say whatever you want about whoever you want, you are perfectly within your rights to do so. I apologize to you, if you misunderstood my words as insulting to your beliefs. I don't agree with your beliefs but it wasn't my intent or purpose to insult you. :peace: :heart:
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well although that is true, i also have the right to remain silent, so i am pleading the 5th and getting out of here before i do make some serious damages. again i am sorry for what i have said in here, did not intend to upset anyone or bash anyone. i can see i did just that, so i can say bye now, and you wont here from me again. not on here and on this subject anyway
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well although that is true, i also have the right to remain silent, so i am pleading the 5th and getting out of here before i do make some serious damages. again i am sorry for what i have said in here, did not intend to upset anyone or bash anyone. i can see i did just that, so i can say bye now, and you wont here from me again. not on here and on this subject anyway
Please don't plead the 5th because of me. All ideas and discussions are welcome in this forum from all different points of view. If the only people in here were Christian and agreed with everything I said, it would be rather dull. On top of the fact that I welcome the challenge to search out what I believe to be true. Being in this forum has pushed me to learn some things that I never knew before. Thank God for queenofnines and Falconer and walksalone, jordandog, amyrouse, and a few others who have come and gone that are not Christian and have challenged me on what I have always thought to be truth.
So be silent if you wish, but even in disagreeing we can benefit each other. All I ask for is respectful and civil dialog.
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yes i do realize this....but i was laid off work, lost my house, my car, couldnt take care of my wife, jehovah witnesses just told me to pray, but that wasnt paying bills. i had no education, but high school, fresh out of high school. so i did talk to a recruiter to see options, they promised me a steady paycheck, a house and free health insurance, so yes i took it and did 7 years 3 years in iraq, 3 years in germany, 1 year here.....i am proud that i did, my family refuses to talk to me to this day for it, and not wanting to try to go back to the religion....and that i found my own beliefs and my own way(pagan)...which is also a big no-no in jehovah witnesses.....
I'm honestly very glad it worked out for you. And I know it's difficult, but don't take your family's "shunning" too personally. It's nothing more than a bullying technique employed by a high-controlling belief system. Hopefully one day they'll wise up and realize what they're doing. I was lucky enough to be given the choice to leave when I was 15-16. My parents disassociated themselves a few years back for various reasons. Glad they did.
Your family and the JW's refuse to talk to you because you either directly killed for the Government or aided in directly killing for the Government.
With this reasoning, Over 20% of your taxes fund this too. Unless the JW's put their money where their mouth is and become something akin to the Amish, the hypocrisy is staggering.
Jesus and his family and the early christians paid taxes, so that's why they pay taxes too, are you calling Jesus a hypocrite? If so i'm srry you feel that way.
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yes it was wrong i think but i got shuned for joining the army
Mr. Travis, it is wrong. Why? Let's just say that you made the right choice in wanting to serve your country and potentially save people's lives versus staying with a group that does absolutely nothing for this land but go around annoying people on saturday/sunday mornings. I salute you, good sir.
Just remember-- JW's think war is completely wrong and that they shouldn't serve in any military. Little do they realize is that their little religion would have never existed if it wasn't for a specific war that granted us religious freedom.
That is exactly right! Freedom doesn't come without sacrifices and unfortunately those sacrifices come in the form of people who are willing to put their life on the line to fight for it. I think it is beyond sad that a person would be shunned for wanting to do something so noble. :(
Did Jesus think it was Noble or even condoned it?
Matthew 26:48-54 reads 48 Now his betrayer had given them a sign, saying: “Whoever it is I kiss, this is he; take him into custody.” 49 And going straight up to Jesus he said: “Good day, Rabbi!” and kissed him very tenderly. 50 But Jesus said to him: “Fellow, for what purpose are you present?” Then they came forward and laid hands on Jesus and took him into custody. 51 But, look! one of those with Jesus reached out his hand and drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels? 54 In that case, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that it must take place this way?”
We learned three things here.
1. Jesus didn't want his followers to fight on his behalf
2. Jesus had great power at his disposal but didn't use it to kill and only if the father grants it or let's him(appeal)
3. Jesus asked how would the scriptures by fulfilled, meaning it goes against the fulfillment of scripture.
P.S. If your not fighting for God or Jesus your fighting for someone else either way it's unscriptural.
P.S.S It's true everyone benefits off the GOV's but when it contradicts scripture that's when I side with God's kingdom(or government).
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Jesus and his family and the early christians paid taxes, so that's why they pay taxes too, are you calling Jesus a hypocrite? If so i'm srry you feel that way.
You are NOT actually comparing the two, please, you cannot be that over the top with this stuff! :confused1: We have that funny little thing called the government and the I.R.S. Last time I checked they were NOT taxing us because they sat around a table and asked WWJD?
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Jesus and his family and the early christians paid taxes, so that's why they pay taxes too, are you calling Jesus a hypocrite? If so i'm srry you feel that way.
You are NOT actually comparing the two, please, you cannot be that over the top with this stuff! :confused1: We have that funny little thing called the government and the I.R.S. Last time I checked they were NOT taxing us because they sat around a table and asked WWJD?
Luke 23:1-4 reads So the multitude of them rose, one and all, and led him to Pilate. 2 Then they started to accuse him, saying: “This man we found subverting our nation and forbidding the paying of taxes to Caesar and saying he himself is Christ a king.” 3 Now Pilate asked him the question: “Are you the king of the Jews?” In answer to him he said: “You yourself are saying [it].” 4 Then Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowds: “I find no crime in this man.”
What have we learned here?
1. They accused Jesus of forbidden the paying of taxes
2. Pontius pilate found no fault in him(meaning the accusation was false otherwise he would have been guilty)
3. That's proof Jesus didn't try to get people not to pay taxes.
Jesus said “Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”(Mark 12:17)
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Good works or just being nice to people would not land you in heaven for sure!!! Even if you had a curew for cancer.
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Good works or just being nice to people would not land you in heaven for sure!!! Even if you had a curew for cancer.
Actually mrstina08 most People who just believe in Christ don't even think about good works or trying to live a christian life. For example many believe in Jesus yet live a life completely opposite of a true christian. While it's true that there's no "yard stick" for good and bad in God's eyes you should strive not to do bad.
I.E. Suppose the man and woman in the relationship had faith it will work but never worked on the relationship, do you think that relationship will last forever? However what if they had faith it will work and tried to make it work at the same time, do you think it will last forever now?
P.S. you get what i'm saying?
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Did Jesus think it was Noble or even condoned it?
War is the result of sin (i.e some person or group of people setting out to commit genocide or exert their beliefs and agendas over another group of people). So does God like war? No, but in what sense would God be a just God if we are to stand by in situations like that of Hitler and his regime.
"How could God be called 'good' if He forbade His people to protect their wives from ravishment and strangulation by drunken marauders, or to resist invaders who have come to pick up their children and dash out their brains against the wall? No policy would give freer rein to wickedness and crime than a complete surrender of the right of self-defense on the part of the law-abiding members of society. No more effective way of promoting the cause of Satan and the powers of hell could be devised than depriving law-abiding citizens of all right of self-defense. It is hard to imagine how any deity could be thought 'good' who would ordain such a policy of supine surrender to evil as that advocated by pacifism. All possibility of an ordered society would be removed on the abolition of any sort of police force. No nation could retain its liberty or preserve the lives of its citizens if it were prevented from maintaining any sort of army for its defense. It is therefore incumbent on a 'good God' to include the right of self-defense as the prerogative of His people. He would not be good at all if He were to turn the world over to the horrors of unbridled cruelty perpetrated by violent and *bleep* criminals or the unchecked aggression of invading armies.
Gleason L. Archer (Encyclopedia of Bible difficulties)
We learned three things here.
1. Jesus didn't want his followers to fight on his behalf
2. Jesus had great power at his disposal but didn't use it to kill and only if the father grants it or let's him(appeal)
3. Jesus asked how would the scriptures by fulfilled, meaning it goes against the fulfillment of scripture.
In this particular scripture reference, Jesus was only referring to the fact that he HAD to die on the cross. That was why he came, that was his purpose from Day 1. Any follower of him trying to fight against this happening, was fighting against God's purpose and Christ himself! Fighting wars against evil acts to defend and protect the weak, wronged and defenseless.....are not even in the same category as this situation.
There is war all through the bible for pete's sake! Is every war justified?? People differ in their opinion of the necessity of certain wars in our history. However, it is plain ludicrous in my opinion to suggest that EVERY war is unnecessary and that people are being thrown out their church or disfellowshiped in the case of JW's, for wanting to fight for a just and noble cause. Is freedom a just and noble cause? Most people would say yes.
If you disagree, perhaps you should live for awhile in a country where your practice of Christianity will get you killed. Or read some personal accounts on what it was like to be a colored person in the 1800's.
Prostitution is a form of enslavement that currently involves perhaps 800,000 children under the age of sixteen, bought and sold for a profit that exceeds that of the drug trade or weapons sales or lotteries or sports gambling. Girls as young as 10-12 years old service men in the sex industry. Many of the girls typically have sex with ten to fifteen men every day, and sometimes as many as 20 to 30.
Maybe you could ask some of the girls sold into prostitution if THEY think freedom is a noble cause for war? Or maybe you could look at their bruised broken and abused bodies and maintain a stand of "holy" neutrality and indifference. :angry7:
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Did Jesus think it was Noble or even condoned it?
War is the result of sin (i.e some person or group of people setting out to commit genocide or exert their beliefs and agendas over another group of people). So does God like war? No, but in what sense would God be a just God if we are to stand by in situations like that of Hitler and his regime.
"How could God be called 'good' if He forbade His people to protect their wives from ravishment and strangulation by drunken marauders, or to resist invaders who have come to pick up their children and dash out their brains against the wall? No policy would give freer rein to wickedness and crime than a complete surrender of the right of self-defense on the part of the law-abiding members of society. No more effective way of promoting the cause of Satan and the powers of hell could be devised than depriving law-abiding citizens of all right of self-defense. It is hard to imagine how any deity could be thought 'good' who would ordain such a policy of supine surrender to evil as that advocated by pacifism. All possibility of an ordered society would be removed on the abolition of any sort of police force. No nation could retain its liberty or preserve the lives of its citizens if it were prevented from maintaining any sort of army for its defense. It is therefore incumbent on a 'good God' to include the right of self-defense as the prerogative of His people. He would not be good at all if He were to turn the world over to the horrors of unbridled cruelty perpetrated by violent and *bleep* criminals or the unchecked aggression of invading armies.
Gleason L. Archer (Encyclopedia of Bible difficulties)
We learned three things here.
1. Jesus didn't want his followers to fight on his behalf
2. Jesus had great power at his disposal but didn't use it to kill and only if the father grants it or let's him(appeal)
3. Jesus asked how would the scriptures by fulfilled, meaning it goes against the fulfillment of scripture.
In this particular scripture reference, Jesus was only referring to the fact that he HAD to die on the cross. That was why he came, that was his purpose from Day 1. Any follower of him trying to fight against this happening, was fighting against God's purpose and Christ himself! Fighting wars against evil acts to defend and protect the weak, wronged and defenseless.....are not even in the same category as this situation.
There is war all through the bible for pete's sake! Is every war justified?? People differ in their opinion of the necessity of certain wars in our history. However, it is plain ludicrous in my opinion to suggest that EVERY war is unnecessary and that people are being thrown out their church or disfellowshiped in the case of JW's, for wanting to fight for a just and noble cause. Is freedom a just and noble cause? Most people would say yes.
If you disagree, perhaps you should live for awhile in a country where your practice of Christianity will get you killed. Or read some personal accounts on what it was like to be a colored person in the 1800's.
Prostitution is a form of enslavement that currently involves perhaps 800,000 children under the age of sixteen, bought and sold for a profit that exceeds that of the drug trade or weapons sales or lotteries or sports gambling. Girls as young as 10-12 years old service men in the sex industry. Many of the girls typically have sex with ten to fifteen men every day, and sometimes as many as 20 to 30.
Maybe you could ask some of the girls sold into prostitution if THEY think freedom is a noble cause for war? Or maybe you could look at their bruised broken and abused bodies and maintain a stand of "holy" neutrality and indifference. :angry7:
Your comments are in bold
War is the result of sin (i.e some person or group of people setting out to commit genocide or exert their beliefs and agendas over another group of people). So does God like war? No, but in what sense would God be a just God if we are to stand by in situations like that of Hitler and his regime."How could God be called 'good' if He forbade His people to protect their wives from ravishment and strangulation by drunken marauders, or to resist invaders who have come to pick up their children and dash out their brains against the wall? No policy would give freer rein to wickedness and crime than a complete surrender of the right of self-defense on the part of the law-abiding members of society. No more effective way of promoting the cause of Satan and the powers of hell could be devised than depriving law-abiding citizens of all right of self-defense. It is hard to imagine how any deity could be thought 'good' who would ordain such a policy of supine surrender to evil as that advocated by pacifism. All possibility of an ordered society would be removed on the abolition of any sort of police force. No nation could retain its liberty or preserve the lives of its citizens if it were prevented from maintaining any sort of army for its defense. It is therefore incumbent on a 'good God' to include the right of self-defense as the prerogative of His people. He would not be good at all if He were to turn the world over to the horrors of unbridled cruelty perpetrated by violent and *bleep* criminals or the unchecked aggression of invading armies.
Gleason L. Archer (Encyclopedia of Bible difficulties)
Romans 12:17-21 reads 17 Return evil for evil to no one. Provide fine things in the sight of all men. 18 If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with all men. 19 Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” 20 But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by doing this you will heap fiery coals upon his head.” 21 Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.
I know what you mean but that's what scripture says, The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman. Yes there was killing in the OT and there's even killing in the NT(Revelation), but it's God who decides not man, both those acts of killing came from God himself, he Judges not us. BTW, the catholic church and some protestant church groups HELPED hitler. I'm srry if I gave you the idea of pacifism the JW's are not pacifist but apolitical and don't kill people. JW's defend themselves without using weapons and appeal to the Government for their religious freedom when necessary. But they don't kill for that freedom.
In this particular scripture reference, Jesus was only referring to the fact that he HAD to die on the cross. That was why he came, that was his purpose from Day 1. Any follower of him trying to fight against this happening, was fighting against God's purpose and Christ himself! Fighting wars against evil acts to defend and protect the weak, wronged and defenseless.....are not even in the same category as this situation.
You say fighting wars to protect the wronged is not in the same category as this situation yet the disciple attacked the man for wrongly arresting Jesus. The motives of say the CIA or the Navy or Army is to kill first, protect second. There's no religious motive for doing so(God ordained) as there supporting a faction that God didn't support. Consider these 2 verse below
Daniel 2:44 reads And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
Matthew 4:8-9 reads 8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”
We learn 2 things here.
1. God will Crush and put an end to all kingdoms
2. Satan has control over all these Kingdoms because he offers Jesus all these Kingdoms
If you disagree, perhaps you should live for awhile in a country where your practice of Christianity will get you killed. Or read some personal accounts on what it was like to be a colored person in the 1800's.
Prostitution is a form of enslavement that currently involves perhaps 800,000 children under the age of sixteen, bought and sold for a profit that exceeds that of the drug trade or weapons sales or lotteries or sports gambling. Girls as young as 10-12 years old service men in the sex industry. Many of the girls typically have sex with ten to fifteen men every day, and sometimes as many as 20 to 30.
Maybe you could ask some of the girls sold into prostitution if THEY think freedom is a noble cause for war? Or maybe you could look at their bruised broken and abused bodies and maintain a stand of "holy" neutrality and indifference. :angry7:
I know my black history believe it or not. Did you know some of those leaders didn't kill people such as MLK? Killing is a lot different then defending yourself which most people confuse. Also if it gets me killed i'm glad I died faithfully, did you know people died to have the translation of the bible you use now without killing?
As for trafficked kids and kids forced to go into war(that happens in some countries), there pretty much lost for life, I can't speak on behalf of trafficked children and even if I could there chance at knowing God was robbed from them at in early age so they wouldn't be able to follow on standards they never even learned or knew.
I'll ask an ex military or CIA person(if I can find one hey never know) about it, if there's people who killed in the past and seen horrible stuff it will be them.
Bottom line is people who love their neighbor(no matter how evil they are) don't kill. It's hard, it's pretty much unfair if not impossible but true christians love not kill their neighbor.
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The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman
The bible says not to murder, it doesn't say not to kill. If the original Hebrew really translated "Thou shalt not kill" that would constitute a contradiction in God's character since he specifically told people to go to war in the OT.
Not only is a proper and responsible policy of self-defense taught by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but there were occasions when God even commissioned His people to carry out judgment on corrupt and degenerate heathen nations and the complete extermination of cities like Jericho (Joshua 6:21). The rules of war laid down in Deuteronomy 20 represented a control of justice, fairness, and kindness in the use of the sword, and, as such, they truly did reflect the goodness of God.
You say fighting wars to protect the wronged is not in the same category as this situation yet the disciple attacked the man for wrongly arresting Jesus. The motives of say the CIA or the Navy or Army is to kill first, protect second.
Jesus was wrongly arrested. Which is exactly what had to happen. To have fought to protect him was to fight AGAINST God. That is why it is different.
And how can you know the motives of the CIA, the Navy or Army as a whole?? One of the Army's mottos is "This we'll defend"
And again, like Falconer said. Without wars having been fought, you wouldn't have the right to be a JW.
Bottom line is people who love their neighbor(no matter how evil they are) don't kill. It's hard, it's pretty much unfair if not impossible but true christians love not kill their neighbor.
That is quite a noble statement. People who love their neighbor don't kill. I love my neighbor and I don't want anyone to get killed. But if my neighbor came to my house and tried to slaughter my family I would not just stand idly by without fighting back. And if my fighting back resulted in that persons death....well I'm sorry they died but I'm not sorry I defended my family. And that does not go against scripture no matter what you try to pull out to prove otherwise.
And I'm sorry but if you believe that self defense is not scriptural then you believe in a bible that contradicts itself. Does you being a "true" Christian mean that you accept these contradictions and have faith in a God that lies?
The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman. Yes there was killing in the OT and there's even killing in the NT(Revelation), but it's God who decides not man, both those acts of killing came from God himself
So according to you, the bible says don't kill. Unless God tells you to. And somehow that makes breaking that rule okay. If that's the case, anyone can say "God told me to kill em" and who are you to say he didn't??
That sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me and not the God that I love and serve. My bible doesn't contradict itself from my interpretation. So you can think I'm a false Christian if you want but if I really believed what you say I probably wouldn't be a Christian at all.
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I would add also:
Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1 Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to conflicts, and praying for a minimum of casualties among civilians on both sides (Philippians 4:6-7).
This anti war example was fused into Jesus Christ who did not defend himself when questioned by his persecutors (in a court of law), instead he faced them head on, with no weapons, and was turned into a *bleep* mess.
Although Christians are not to oppose the government and its authority, it doesn't mean that we have to agree with them every time.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/just_war_principle.html
The Bible teaches that we have the right to self defense, Exodus 22:2: "If the thief is caught while breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there will be no blood guiltiness on his account." The Bible also tells us to protect the innocent, Deut. 19:10, "So innocent blood will not be shed in the midst of your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance, and blood guiltiness be on you." Also, see "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin," (Deut. 24:16). If we were to apply these principles to war, I would conclude that war is justifiable when it is in self defense and/or when it is to protect the innocent. Therefore, a Christian could rightfully engage in war given those conditions.
http://carm.org/should-christian-go-war
I don't understand how you can say the bible says nothing about defending yourself. :confused1:
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Anyone can author a book and make any claims they wish and call it non-fiction and find a publisher.
Anyone, or any group can adopt any catchy slogan or motto.
Has anyone ever heard of "propaganda"?
As far as translations, reminds me of the person who wanted the tatoos with the Japanese writing that says love or peace or some such fluufy thing and comes out proud and bragging about their new tat that actually translates to dip *bleep* or some other derogatory phrase.
Always verify what you have verified, please.
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The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman
The bible says not to murder, it doesn't say not to kill. If the original Hebrew really translated "Thou shalt not kill" that would constitute a contradiction in God's character since he specifically told people to go to war in the OT.
Not only is a proper and responsible policy of self-defense taught by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but there were occasions when God even commissioned His people to carry out judgment on corrupt and degenerate heathen nations and the complete extermination of cities like Jericho (Joshua 6:21). The rules of war laid down in Deuteronomy 20 represented a control of justice, fairness, and kindness in the use of the sword, and, as such, they truly did reflect the goodness of God.
You say fighting wars to protect the wronged is not in the same category as this situation yet the disciple attacked the man for wrongly arresting Jesus. The motives of say the CIA or the Navy or Army is to kill first, protect second.
Jesus was wrongly arrested. Which is exactly what had to happen. To have fought to protect him was to fight AGAINST God. That is why it is different.
And how can you know the motives of the CIA, the Navy or Army as a whole?? One of the Army's mottos is "This we'll defend"
And again, like Falconer said. Without wars having been fought, you wouldn't have the right to be a JW.
Bottom line is people who love their neighbor(no matter how evil they are) don't kill. It's hard, it's pretty much unfair if not impossible but true christians love not kill their neighbor.
That is quite a noble statement. People who love their neighbor don't kill. I love my neighbor and I don't want anyone to get killed. But if my neighbor came to my house and tried to slaughter my family I would not just stand idly by without fighting back. And if my fighting back resulted in that persons death....well I'm sorry they died but I'm not sorry I defended my family. And that does not go against scripture no matter what you try to pull out to prove otherwise.
And I'm sorry but if you believe that self defense is not scriptural then you believe in a bible that contradicts itself. Does you being a "true" Christian mean that you accept these contradictions and have faith in a God that lies?
The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman. Yes there was killing in the OT and there's even killing in the NT(Revelation), but it's God who decides not man, both those acts of killing came from God himself
So according to you, the bible says don't kill. Unless God tells you to. And somehow that makes breaking that rule okay. If that's the case, anyone can say "God told me to kill em" and who are you to say he didn't??
That sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me and not the God that I love and serve. My bible doesn't contradict itself from my interpretation. So you can think I'm a false Christian if you want but if I really believed what you say I probably wouldn't be a Christian at all.
Well, I believe in God. :angel12: We are all God's children no matter what color or religion. I am a Pagan meaning a country dweller,
And you are right, if we all strive to do good in this world no matter the religion, It's not right for someone or anyone to judge how we as God's children worship God. For example, it's not right for one to judge an African or an Indian because of their rituals in belief of God.
Remember the the saying, ''Thou shalt not judge for thou shall be judged'' and what about the story about the Tower of Babble, If God wanted all of us to be one in religion, he would never have destroyed the Tower to Heaven. No matter of color of race, or religion, we all strive to do good and teach our children to do good. My Father's ancestors are Irish and my Mom's ancestors is Choctaw and Ottahwah Indian, so therefore, I've done my research on both and found out a lot about my history and their rituals. But since God destroyed the tower, we of any race of color has many languages throughout the world instead of having the same language and beliefs.
In the beginning, we the children of God created such a war between Christians, The Jews, the Pagans, and so forth, and that same war is still going on today. Instead of creating such a war, Why can't we do as God says, ''Turn the other Cheek'' ''Thou shall not judge for thou shall be judged''. Why do the Jews of today still stone their own kind to death even their own children when they do wrong?
Why do our schools have to take out school prayer? I believe it should be for anyone who wants to attend, and not force them into it, remember Thy Free Will. If I could I would love to attend a real African ritual as well as for an Indian ritual, or a real Jewish ritual, It would be awesome for me. No matter how old we get, we are never too old to learn something new everyday.
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The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman
The bible says not to murder, it doesn't say not to kill. If the original Hebrew really translated "Thou shalt not kill" that would constitute a contradiction in God's character since he specifically told people to go to war in the OT.
Not only is a proper and responsible policy of self-defense taught by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but there were occasions when God even commissioned His people to carry out judgment on corrupt and degenerate heathen nations and the complete extermination of cities like Jericho (Joshua 6:21). The rules of war laid down in Deuteronomy 20 represented a control of justice, fairness, and kindness in the use of the sword, and, as such, they truly did reflect the goodness of God.
You say fighting wars to protect the wronged is not in the same category as this situation yet the disciple attacked the man for wrongly arresting Jesus. The motives of say the CIA or the Navy or Army is to kill first, protect second.
Jesus was wrongly arrested. Which is exactly what had to happen. To have fought to protect him was to fight AGAINST God. That is why it is different.
And how can you know the motives of the CIA, the Navy or Army as a whole?? One of the Army's mottos is "This we'll defend"
And again, like Falconer said. Without wars having been fought, you wouldn't have the right to be a JW.
Bottom line is people who love their neighbor(no matter how evil they are) don't kill. It's hard, it's pretty much unfair if not impossible but true christians love not kill their neighbor.
That is quite a noble statement. People who love their neighbor don't kill. I love my neighbor and I don't want anyone to get killed. But if my neighbor came to my house and tried to slaughter my family I would not just stand idly by without fighting back. And if my fighting back resulted in that persons death....well I'm sorry they died but I'm not sorry I defended my family. And that does not go against scripture no matter what you try to pull out to prove otherwise.
And I'm sorry but if you believe that self defense is not scriptural then you believe in a bible that contradicts itself. Does you being a "true" Christian mean that you accept these contradictions and have faith in a God that lies?
The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman. Yes there was killing in the OT and there's even killing in the NT(Revelation), but it's God who decides not man, both those acts of killing came from God himself
So according to you, the bible says don't kill. Unless God tells you to. And somehow that makes breaking that rule okay. If that's the case, anyone can say "God told me to kill em" and who are you to say he didn't??
That sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me and not the God that I love and serve. My bible doesn't contradict itself from my interpretation. So you can think I'm a false Christian if you want but if I really believed what you say I probably wouldn't be a Christian at all.
Well, I believe in God. :angel12: We are all God's children no matter what color or religion. I am a Pagan meaning a country dweller,
And you are right, if we all strive to do good in this world no matter the religion, It's not right for someone or anyone to judge how we as God's children worship God. For example, it's not right for one to judge an African or an Indian because of their rituals in belief of God.
Remember the the saying, ''Thou shalt not judge for thou shall be judged'' and what about the story about the Tower of Babble, If God wanted all of us to be one in religion, he would never have destroyed the Tower to Heaven. No matter of color of race, or religion, we all strive to do good and teach our children to do good. My Father's ancestors are Irish and my Mom's ancestors is Choctaw and Ottahwah Indian, so therefore, I've done my research on both and found out a lot about my history and their rituals. But since God destroyed the tower, we of any race of color has many languages throughout the world instead of having the same language and beliefs.
In the beginning, we the children of God created such a war between Christians, The Jews, the Pagans, and so forth, and that same war is still going on today. Instead of creating such a war, Why can't we do as God says, ''Turn the other Cheek'' ''Thou shall not judge for thou shall be judged''. Why do the Jews of today still stone their own kind to death even their own children when they do wrong?
Why do our schools have to take out school prayer? I believe it should be for anyone who wants to attend, and not force them into it, remember Thy Free Will. If I could I would love to attend a real African ritual as well as for an Indian ritual, or a real Jewish ritual, It would be awesome for me. No matter how old we get, we are never too old to learn something new everyday.
The intent of Ceremony, is not to satisfy some curiosity. That is most dis-respectful and selfish. Either one is NDN all day every day....or they're not.
I'm not sure what sources you used to study your NDN heritage, but unless you were gifted this wisdom by your own Relations, then the information offered is, in most all cases in very unreliable.
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well, then since we looking at the facts lets look at the bible. if you read the bible im sure you would have to agree that it says no where that gay or lesbian is a sin, yet christians say it is...also it does mention that incest is ok only when it suites gods purpose, that is a bit to faced dont you think not to mention wrong....it also states jesus forgiving a prostitute, but so many today look down on them and talk badly about them. it also states that we are to love each other but why are so many christian leaders supporting war and making war in gods name....why is it that the christian kill so many people, and stole land from any one that wasnt christian.
i am sorry but history proves and the bible proves that christianity is what is wrong with this world, look at the facts again...
i knw that we all have different beliefs but if you speak on the bible then you should study a little more closely god destroyed cities sodom and gomorra because of the unholy things that were going on there (Genesis chapter 19) that should give you all the info you need on the subject and as far as facts go none of us were there so we r all going on hear say an we have freewill thank god to believe or disbelieve.the choice is yours
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In addition to the rest of the inane, ignorant, uneducated, and ridiculous things posted by this person, this one really took the cake! Walks already addressed the NDN writings and it's HIS place, not mine to do that, but they also offended me greatly for him.
Dianna37:Why do the Jews of today still stone their own kind to death even their own children when they do wrong?
What?! Really?! Just where DID you get this little BS tidbit of incredibly wrong info from?
Hey, AmyRouse - tell me honestly. When and who did you and your family last stone to death? Just in case you are also ignorant of this, which IS fact, AmyRouse just happens to be Jewish. I can't wait to see what she has to say about this..... :angry7:
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Anyone can author a book and make any claims they wish and call it non-fiction and find a publisher.
Anyone, or any group can adopt any catchy slogan or motto.
Has anyone ever heard of "propaganda"?
As far as translations, reminds me of the person who wanted the tatoos with the Japanese writing that says love or peace or some such fluufy thing and comes out proud and bragging about their new tat that actually translates to dip *bleep* or some other derogatory phrase.
Always verify what you have verified, please.
I'm not sure if you're addressing this to me walks but since it came right after my post I'll assume so.
The bible is in harmony with recorded historical events. http://www.bible-history.com/
The bible is in harmony with archaeological findings. http://www.uhcg.org/news/is-bible-true.html
Historians and writers outside of biblical writings such as: Tacitus, Suetonius, Flavius Josephus, Thallus, Pliny the Younger all mention Jesus.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html
I think there is enough evidence for me to conclude that bible is not fiction.
As for the motto of the Army. You are right anyone can adopt any motto and the military has carried out actions issued from the government that are no doubt wrong. However, my point being that the motive of the military a whole is to defend. Some individuals within the military may have ahboreous ideas about wiping out people they don't like. Some leaders within the military may have those same ideas. But the point and purpose for the military is defensive in nature. And no one should be excommunicated, shamed, disfellowshipped, shunned, or protested because they choose to join the military.
You mentioned translations. I assume you are referring to my statement that my interpretation of the bible doesn't contradict itself.
I have verified countless times in this forum alone, where a supposed contradiction is not a contradiction. I have referenced original Hebrew and Greek writings to show what a word actually interprets to. I have given explanations to show that supposed passages proving God's evil nature, are not proving any such thing.
I'm not here to proselytize anyone. I have given ample explanations with references and reliable historical facts to defend my position as a Christian. When I'm addressing another Christian I don't try to defend the bible because they believe it the same as me, whether we disagree on interpretation or not. And in this post I was addressing a person who believes the bible (albeit from a wrong interpretation IMO)
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In addition to the rest of the inane, ignorant, uneducated, and ridiculous things posted by this person, this one really took the cake! Walks already addressed the NDN writings and it's HIS place, not mine to do that, but they also offended me greatly for him.
Dianna37:Why do the Jews of today still stone their own kind to death even their own children when they do wrong?
What?! Really?! Just where DID you get this little BS tidbit of incredibly wrong info from?
Hey, AmyRouse - tell me honestly. When and who did you and your family last stone to death? Just in case you are also ignorant of this, which IS fact, AmyRouse just happens to be Jewish. I can't wait to see what she has to say about this..... :angry7:
LMIAO...yeah that caught my eye too. Thought I'd let Amy address that. Still cleaning the mess up off the ant hill from the last time......heh heh heh
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Anyone can author a book and make any claims they wish and call it non-fiction and find a publisher.
Anyone, or any group can adopt any catchy slogan or motto.
Has anyone ever heard of "propaganda"?
As far as translations, reminds me of the person who wanted the tatoos with the Japanese writing that says love or peace or some such fluufy thing and comes out proud and bragging about their new tat that actually translates to dip *bleep* or some other derogatory phrase.
Always verify what you have verified, please.
I'm not sure if you're addressing this to me walks but since it came right after my post I'll assume so.
The bible is in harmony with recorded historical events. http://www.bible-history.com/
The bible is in harmony with archaeological findings. http://www.uhcg.org/news/is-bible-true.html
Historians and writers outside of biblical writings such as: Tacitus, Suetonius, Flavius Josephus, Thallus, Pliny the Younger all mention Jesus.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html
I think there is enough evidence for me to conclude that bible is not fiction.
As for the motto of the Army. You are right anyone can adopt any motto and the military has carried out actions issued from the government that are no doubt wrong. However, my point being that the motive of the military a whole is to defend. Some individuals within the military may have ahboreous ideas about wiping out people they don't like. Some leaders within the military may have those same ideas. But the point and purpose for the military is defensive in nature. And no one should be excommunicated, shamed, disfellowshipped, shunned, or protested because they choose to join the military.
You mentioned translations. I assume you are referring to my statement that my interpretation of the bible doesn't contradict itself.
I have verified countless times in this forum alone, where a supposed contradiction is not a contradiction. I have referenced original Hebrew and Greek writings to show what a word actually interprets to. I have given explanations to show that supposed passages proving God's evil nature, are not proving any such thing.
I'm not here to proselytize anyone. I have given ample explanations with references and reliable historical facts to defend my position as a Christian. When I'm addressing another Christian I don't try to defend the bible because they believe it the same as me, whether we disagree on interpretation or not. And in this post I was addressing a person who believes the bible (albeit from a wrong interpretation IMO)
Perhaps......
"Secret Origins of the Bible" Tim Callahan
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Perhaps......
"Secret Origins of the Bible" Tim Callahan
Secret Origins of the Bible Book Review
http://www.tektonics.org/books/callahan02.html
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Perhaps......
"Secret Origins of the Bible" Tim Callahan
Secret Origins of the Bible Book Review
http://www.tektonics.org/books/callahan02.html
Thank you Mrs. Sherna. That proves my point very well. I have no need to be right here, and we could go back and forth all day find this "authority" or that to dispute the last, but basically all that does is awards one of us the latest "nenner nenner nenner". I know you get what my point is. Where do we draw the line and say that this "man" or that "man" is the finally authority on the subject.
Wisdom is your friend and we should all never cease to seek it out, where ever it leads.
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Dianna37: "and what about the story about the Tower of Babble, If God wanted all of us to be one in religion, he would never have destroyed the Tower to Heaven."
Here again is an atheist (me) clarifying another incorrect point made by a religious (of some type?) person.
The Tower of Babel (NOT Babble, that is where the word BABBLE derived from due to the confusion of language caused by God) was NOT destroyed because of the reason YOU stated. The people who built it all spoke one language and they used manmade materials to build the tower instead of what God had already provided them. He took the tower down and caused them to speak languages NONE could understand because they were building a monument to themselves, to call attention to their own abilities and achievements, instead of giving glory to God. It was to be only their way to get to heaven and not for everyone.
Perhaps you should be opening your Bible up and learning what it actually says. I have apparently remembered more from it than you have known. :P
Okay, I'm done picking at this one. ;) I need to go get some sleep now so I can function at work tonight. Can't wait to see what happens with this mess, lol.
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Perhaps......
"Secret Origins of the Bible" Tim Callahan
Secret Origins of the Bible Book Review
http://www.tektonics.org/books/callahan02.html
Thank you Mrs. Sherna. That proves my point very well. I have no need to be right here, and we could go back and forth all day find this "authority" or that to dispute the last, but basically all that does is awards one of us the latest "nenner nenner nenner". I know you get what my point is. Where do we draw the line and say that this "man" or that "man" is the finally authority on the subject.
Wisdom is your friend and we should all never cease to seek it out, where ever it leads.
I agree walks, completely. And that's why my belief in God and my trust in the bible is based on more than just what so and so says. But when I'm speaking to a person who isn't Christian, the only thing I can give them is, essays, reports, books, records....ect. I can't give them my perspective, I can't give them my affection for God, I can't give them my faith.
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Perhaps......
"Secret Origins of the Bible" Tim Callahan
Secret Origins of the Bible Book Review
http://www.tektonics.org/books/callahan02.html
Thank you Mrs. Sherna. That proves my point very well. I have no need to be right here, and we could go back and forth all day find this "authority" or that to dispute the last, but basically all that does is awards one of us the latest "nenner nenner nenner". I know you get what my point is. Where do we draw the line and say that this "man" or that "man" is the finally authority on the subject.
Wisdom is your friend and we should all never cease to seek it out, where ever it leads.
I agree walks, completely. And that's why my belief in God and my trust in the bible is based on more than just what so and so says. But when I'm speaking to a person who isn't Christian, the only thing I can give them is, essays, reports, books, records....ect. I can't give them my perspective, I can't give them my affection for God, I can't give them my faith.
Grandmother once told me "Be careful of giving your "medicine" away, lest it loses it's power."
I think some gifts are meant for just the recipient, and would not be fully appreciated by another, with the possibility of neglect or mis-use IE disrespect. You find great comfort in what has been gifted to you and should cling to that as long as you do. We can not make others honor our own gifts. Just a little something to ponder.....
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Here again is an atheist (me) clarifying another incorrect point made by a religious (of some type?) person.
I wasn't even going to go there lol. Sometimes you just have to pick and choose your battles and I was more than happy to leave that one alone. Thanks for stepping up Ms. Atheist ;)
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The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman
The bible says not to murder, it doesn't say not to kill. If the original Hebrew really translated "Thou shalt not kill" that would constitute a contradiction in God's character since he specifically told people to go to war in the OT.
Not only is a proper and responsible policy of self-defense taught by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but there were occasions when God even commissioned His people to carry out judgment on corrupt and degenerate heathen nations and the complete extermination of cities like Jericho (Joshua 6:21). The rules of war laid down in Deuteronomy 20 represented a control of justice, fairness, and kindness in the use of the sword, and, as such, they truly did reflect the goodness of God.
You say fighting wars to protect the wronged is not in the same category as this situation yet the disciple attacked the man for wrongly arresting Jesus. The motives of say the CIA or the Navy or Army is to kill first, protect second.
Jesus was wrongly arrested. Which is exactly what had to happen. To have fought to protect him was to fight AGAINST God. That is why it is different.
And how can you know the motives of the CIA, the Navy or Army as a whole?? One of the Army's mottos is "This we'll defend"
And again, like Falconer said. Without wars having been fought, you wouldn't have the right to be a JW.
Bottom line is people who love their neighbor(no matter how evil they are) don't kill. It's hard, it's pretty much unfair if not impossible but true christians love not kill their neighbor.
That is quite a noble statement. People who love their neighbor don't kill. I love my neighbor and I don't want anyone to get killed. But if my neighbor came to my house and tried to slaughter my family I would not just stand idly by without fighting back. And if my fighting back resulted in that persons death....well I'm sorry they died but I'm not sorry I defended my family. And that does not go against scripture no matter what you try to pull out to prove otherwise.
And I'm sorry but if you believe that self defense is not scriptural then you believe in a bible that contradicts itself. Does you being a "true" Christian mean that you accept these contradictions and have faith in a God that lies?
The bible says nothing about defending yourself but says not to kill your fellowman. Yes there was killing in the OT and there's even killing in the NT(Revelation), but it's God who decides not man, both those acts of killing came from God himself
So according to you, the bible says don't kill. Unless God tells you to. And somehow that makes breaking that rule okay. If that's the case, anyone can say "God told me to kill em" and who are you to say he didn't??
That sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me and not the God that I love and serve. My bible doesn't contradict itself from my interpretation. So you can think I'm a false Christian if you want but if I really believed what you say I probably wouldn't be a Christian at all.
Your comments are in bold...
The bible says not to murder, it doesn't say not to kill. If the original Hebrew really translated "Thou shalt not kill" that would constitute a contradiction in God's character since he specifically told people to go to war in the OT.
Not only is a proper and responsible policy of self-defense taught by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but there were occasions when God even commissioned His people to carry out judgment on corrupt and degenerate heathen nations and the complete extermination of cities like Jericho (Joshua 6:21). The rules of war laid down in Deuteronomy 20 represented a control of justice, fairness, and kindness in the use of the sword, and, as such, they truly did reflect the goodness of God.
This wasn't mere self-defense(stopping a person from attacking without killing them) but was actual killing, Those people were able to talk to God through a real prophet and that land was promised by God at least decades in advance So it was God ordained. Atheists and others of the like will say cop out but that's what happened in scripture.
1 And it came about after the death of Moses the servant of Jehovah that Jehovah proceeded to say to Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses: 2 “Moses my servant is dead; and now get up, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land that I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel. 3 Every place upon which the sole of YOUR foot will tread, to YOU people I shall certainly give it, just as I promised to Moses. 4 From the wilderness and this Leb′a·non to the great river, the river Eu·phra′tes, that is, all the land of the Hit′tites, and to the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun YOUR territory will prove to be. 5 Nobody will take a firm stand before you all the days of your life. Just as I proved to be with Moses I shall prove to be with you. I shall neither desert you nor leave you entirely. 6 Be courageous and strong, for you are the one who will cause this people to inherit the land that I swore to their forefathers to give to them.(Joshua 1:1-6)
Jesus was wrongly arrested. Which is exactly what had to happen. To have fought to protect him was to fight AGAINST God. That is why it is different.
I think I understand now God will only let us kill for people who are less then Jesus?
And how can you know the motives of the CIA, the Navy or Army as a whole?? One of the Army's mottos is "This we'll defend"
My aunt's husband used to be in the military, and i've heard from others. My cousin wanted to be in the military and her father said "they aren't going to waste anytime sending you off to Iraq to kill people" as a result she changed her mine. My aunt and my cousin and her Husband are not JW's. The army's version of defense is kill first period, All the technology they have and they can't subdue people without killing them? Do you think it's just to torture people?(waterboarding etc) if you do I feel sorry for you. The defend and properly serve and protect are lies because the system is made for the elect.
"Do you really think a system that's made for the elect can possibly serve and protect?"
Lyrics from Lauren Hill's mystery of iniquity
And again, like Falconer said. Without wars having been fought, you wouldn't have the right to be a JW.
A JW? More like if there was no wars we could of had the bible sooner. The JW's would have likely appealed to the U.K. Government if they hadn't broken off and got permission(eventually), the same thing is happening all over the planet and in some countries THERE ARE JW'S WHO WORSHIP FREELY OUTSIDE THE U.S., some Governments are moist clay(meaning not as stern or hard as say Stalin or Hitler's reign and can be shaped by people), while others are iron(Not shaped by people and is ruled by one person). The latter is obviously less favorable and people like the U.S. Government because they honestly believe they shape it. Either way it's a refuge that's a lie.
That is quite a noble statement. People who love their neighbor don't kill. I love my neighbor and I don't want anyone to get killed. But if my neighbor came to my house and tried to slaughter my family I would not just stand idly by without fighting back. And if my fighting back resulted in that persons death....well I'm sorry they died but I'm not sorry I defended my family. And that does not go against scripture no matter what you try to pull out to prove otherwise.
I treat defending myself like it's the same as defending myself from a woman, I will do anything in my power to not kill the person or even seriously harm them, but I will restain them to the best of my ability. If it actually came down to killing them, I will seriously harm them but only if it came down to killing them. People don't realize the vicious cycle your committing when you do this, someone finds out you killed their family member(especially if it's a gang member and his members find out), then they kill your family member, then you kill his. The cycle won't end.
And I'm sorry but if you believe that self defense is not scriptural then you believe in a bible that contradicts itself. Does you being a "true" Christian mean that you accept these contradictions and have faith in a God that lies?So according to you, the bible says don't kill. Unless God tells you to. And somehow that makes breaking that rule okay. If that's the case, anyone can say "God told me to kill em" and who are you to say he didn't??
That sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me and not the God that I love and serve. My bible doesn't contradict itself from my interpretation. So you can think I'm a false Christian if you want but if I really believed what you say I probably wouldn't be a Christian at all.
I should have clairifed what I meant when I said "the bible doesn't say anything about defending yourself", I thought it was clear when I said the JW's are not pacifists(people who don't defend themselves in any way shape or from). The bible only talks about killing when it's granted BY HIM from a prophet or when it's to "protect his nation". Israel is not under the Israelites anymore but under the U.N. and other political governments that God is going to destroy(Daniel 2:44). So since the Bible never talks about knocking someone out, hitting them over the head with a rock to defend yourself etc. But only not to kill I take it as to do everything in your power not to kill the person but defend yourself. Killing breeds a cycle that never stops and for some people sending people to the hospital will also continue the cycle. But who knows one day that person will be grateful for sparing him and maybe his family.
While I personally feel it's impossible for God to tell them to kill someone directly because there's no prophet between them(unless they make themselves a prophet which is false) and with the reasons for killing I discussed above. I can't judge people actions only God can, I can say I feel Hitler is not coming back or suicide bombers like Islam terrorists who are actually false Islamists to begin with is not coming back it's not my place to decide.
That sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me and not the God that I love and serve. My bible doesn't contradict itself from my interpretation. So you can think I'm a false Christian if you want but if I really believed what you say I probably wouldn't be a Christian at all.
There are many things in the bible that seems like a contradiction on the surface especially with doctrines, but there's always a reason for the differences on the surface. Also the rules God laid down is for humans, there are no rules for God, who are you to Judge the "most high"
P.S. I bolded myself by accident and I don't know how to take it off sorry.
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I think I understand now God will only let us kill for people who are less then Jesus?
No. Jesus' sole purpose for being here was to die. I don't know how I can make it anymore clear that fighting to defend him was actually fighting against him.
There are many things in the bible that seems like a contradiction on the surface especially with doctrines, but there's always a reason for the differences on the surface. Also the rules God laid down is for humans, there are no rules for God, who are you to Judge the "most high"
Mmmm, I'm not judging God. But I don't see any contradiction in the bible and therefore my belief is not defended by making such statements as "There are no rules for God" and leaving it at that. Maybe that's good enough for you. But if there "appears" to be a contradiction then I'm going to find out whether it really is a contradiction. I'm not going to blindly look away and say "Oh well, God has his own rules" and be okay with that.
Being that you seem to be okay with this blaring contradiction of God in your doctrinal beliefs, then I don't see any point in trying to debate this issue further.
But I would say to anyone else reading that not ALL Christians will begrudge you the right to join the military. Every church I have been in respect, pray for, and honor people willing to fight for their country.
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anticipation...anticipa aa aa shun......c'mon Amy, type faster lmiao
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In addition to the rest of the inane, ignorant, uneducated, and ridiculous things posted by this person, this one really took the cake! Walks already addressed the NDN writings and it's HIS place, not mine to do that, but they also offended me greatly for him.
Dianna37:Why do the Jews of today still stone their own kind to death even their own children when they do wrong?
What?! Really?! Just where DID you get this little BS tidbit of incredibly wrong info from?
Hey, AmyRouse - tell me honestly. When and who did you and your family last stone to death? Just in case you are also ignorant of this, which IS fact, AmyRouse just happens to be Jewish. I can't wait to see what she has to say about this..... :angry7:
Dude, I don't know what you're talking about...I stone people on a daily basis. That is the only way to get the dishes done around my house. Besides, Bob Dylan condones it. :thumbsup:
People have all kinds of ignorant and/or misled beliefs. Its my place to share my knowledge with someone badly misinformed. If Jews really do stone people to death, including our families, I would much like to know, because I can think of a few related to me that may badly need it. As far as I have been taught and as far as I have studied, this is not a common practice...although, if you have a room with four Jews sitting in it, you have five different Judaisms. I hope in the case of this statement, though, that it was a simple typo, because if it wasn't, it is a clear case of how ingrained and subconsciously antisemitism runs still in today's society. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.
As for attending a worship service or ceremony...they are not there for entertainment but for worship. I would gladly invite anyone to Shabbos or to a seder with me who was genuinely interested. That someone, though, would be expected to show the service/ceremony the proper respect it deserves.
anticipation...anticipa aa aa shun......c'mon Amy, type faster lmiao
LOL, silly, Walks... rocks are for Jews... ;)
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In addition to the rest of the inane, ignorant, uneducated, and ridiculous things posted by this person, this one really took the cake! Walks already addressed the NDN writings and it's HIS place, not mine to do that, but they also offended me greatly for him.
Dianna37:Why do the Jews of today still stone their own kind to death even their own children when they do wrong?
What?! Really?! Just where DID you get this little BS tidbit of incredibly wrong info from?
Hey, AmyRouse - tell me honestly. When and who did you and your family last stone to death? Just in case you are also ignorant of this, which IS fact, AmyRouse just happens to be Jewish. I can't wait to see what she has to say about this..... :angry7:
Dude, I don't know what you're talking about...I stone people on a daily basis. That is the only way to get the dishes done around my house. Besides, Bob Dylan condones it. :thumbsup:
People have all kinds of ignorant and/or misled beliefs. Its my place to share my knowledge with someone badly misinformed. If Jews really do stone people to death, including our families, I would much like to know, because I can think of a few related to me that may badly need it. As far as I have been taught and as far as I have studied, this is not a common practice...although, if you have a room with four Jews sitting in it, you have five different Judaisms. I hope in the case of this statement, though, that it was a simple typo, because if it wasn't, it is a clear case of how ingrained and subconsciously antisemitism runs still in today's society. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.
As for attending a worship service or ceremony...they are not there for entertainment but for worship. I would gladly invite anyone to Shabbos or to a seder with me who was genuinely interested. That someone, though, would be expected to show the service/ceremony the proper respect it deserves.
anticipation...anticipa aa aa shun......c'mon Amy, type faster lmiao
LOL, silly, Walks... rocks are for Jews... ;)
Wha...whaa...well.....wel....ummmm....o...k....how bout RAWKS!!!! ;o)
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In addition to the rest of the inane, ignorant, uneducated, and ridiculous things posted by this person, this one really took the cake! Walks already addressed the NDN writings and it's HIS place, not mine to do that, but they also offended me greatly for him.
Dianna37:Why do the Jews of today still stone their own kind to death even their own children when they do wrong?
What?! Really?! Just where DID you get this little BS tidbit of incredibly wrong info from?
Hey, AmyRouse - tell me honestly. When and who did you and your family last stone to death? Just in case you are also ignorant of this, which IS fact, AmyRouse just happens to be Jewish. I can't wait to see what she has to say about this..... :angry7:
Dude, I don't know what you're talking about...I stone people on a daily basis. That is the only way to get the dishes done around my house. Besides, Bob Dylan condones it. :thumbsup:
People have all kinds of ignorant and/or misled beliefs. Its my place to share my knowledge with someone badly misinformed. If Jews really do stone people to death, including our families, I would much like to know, because I can think of a few related to me that may badly need it. As far as I have been taught and as far as I have studied, this is not a common practice...although, if you have a room with four Jews sitting in it, you have five different Judaisms. I hope in the case of this statement, though, that it was a simple typo, because if it wasn't, it is a clear case of how ingrained and subconsciously antisemitism runs still in today's society. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.
As for attending a worship service or ceremony...they are not there for entertainment but for worship. I would gladly invite anyone to Shabbos or to a seder with me who was genuinely interested. That someone, though, would be expected to show the service/ceremony the proper respect it deserves.
anticipation...anticipa aa aa shun......c'mon Amy, type faster lmiao
LOL, silly, Walks... rocks are for Jews... ;)
Wha...whaa...well.....wel....ummmm....o...k....how bout RAWKS!!!! ;o)
Toadally.
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I think I understand now God will only let us kill for people who are less then Jesus?
No. Jesus' sole purpose for being here was to die. I don't know how I can make it anymore clear that fighting to defend him was actually fighting against him.
There are many things in the bible that seems like a contradiction on the surface especially with doctrines, but there's always a reason for the differences on the surface. Also the rules God laid down is for humans, there are no rules for God, who are you to Judge the "most high"
Mmmm, I'm not judging God. But I don't see any contradiction in the bible and therefore my belief is not defended by making such statements as "There are no rules for God" and leaving it at that. Maybe that's good enough for you. But if there "appears" to be a contradiction then I'm going to find out whether it really is a contradiction. I'm not going to blindly look away and say "Oh well, God has his own rules" and be okay with that.
Being that you seem to be okay with this blaring contradiction of God in your doctrinal beliefs, then I don't see any point in trying to debate this issue further.
But I would say to anyone else reading that not ALL Christians will begrudge you the right to join the military. Every church I have been in respect, pray for, and honor people willing to fight for their country.
Your comments are in bold
No. Jesus' sole purpose for being here was to die. I don't know how I can make it anymore clear that fighting to defend him was actually fighting against him.
Jesus sole purpose was also providing a model for you to follow closely(1 Peter 2:21). Jesus in his human form never killed anyone, yet defended his God and father and even threw tables at a place of worship because of money-making business and he also made a whip to do God knows what!!!!!(John 2:13-16). If he is God like you say he is I don't think there could have been a better time to execute Judgment. However in Revelation Angels not only fight for him, but actually kill people. Again no killing from humans but instead Jesus acting out his father's behalf (Revelation 19:11-21).
Actually if you can find a verse that has Christ's disciples killing people I'll leave the JW's.
Being that you seem to be okay with this blaring contradiction of God in your doctrinal beliefs, then I don't see any point in trying to debate this issue further.
I'm more level headed now and less heated then I was before, can you please elaborate on what you feel is the contradiction(i'm genuinely interested), I showed from scripture God commanded those to kill to gain a land that he promised and to "protect his nation"(Joshua 1:1-6).
I also showed that the Kingdoms or Governments belong to Satan
8 Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matthew 4:8-10)
God will destory all these kingdoms
44 “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;(Daniel 2:44)
And that's all I have to say, I can't force people to be neutral. Oh one more thing your comment below.
But I would say to anyone else reading that not ALL Christians will begrudge you the right to join the military. Every church I have been in respect, pray for, and honor people willing to fight for their country.
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With all due respect almost every church is praying for those to kill other people sometimes they pray(practically during World War 1 and 2) to kill other christians or people who believe in the same lord. The church has a tremendous history of supporting Nationalistic interests which is in many respects a religion itself. I'll leave one last scripture.
4 Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.( James 4:4)
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Yes, unfortunetly you are not judged by your "works" alone. All things we do on this earth in goodness towards those in need, like u specified, are actually most wonderful acts of kindness and concern for society, but unfortunely do not bring any type of reward without the guidance and leading of The Holy Spirit. This leading is a consistant awesome communion with The Lord, and He is always with us. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith are dead. I have never understood the mind of the athiest, how could u not see the awesome world we live in and not recognize it's Creator? His grace and beauty is in every sunrise and sunset you see. Just how someone could not believe is beyond me. It's such a simple process to become saved. Just believe in your heart that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, that He alone is the very son of God, and that he resurected after 3 days,and ask for forgiveness of your sin. Confessing your sin is not as difficult as you think, it's not like you have to account for every sin that you committed and hope u covered them all in your profession, it's just, Jesus forgive me of my many sins. He knows what they are and it is done. How simple is that. I pray everday that God will renew me, strengthen me, give me peace and joy and walk with me all throughout my day. His love is endless, as far as the east is from the west, which is an infinite circle, you will never regret your admission of faith in The Lord God, but instead you will walk in a light and love that you have never known before, one that makes u wonder how you made it through each day without Him.....Trust me, God is sooooo awesome. I will pray for u daily. God Bless and keep you safe through your admission of faith.
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Actually if you can find a verse that has Christ's disciples killing people I'll leave the JW's.
Peter called death on Annanias and Saphira. You will probably argue that he didn't actually lay a hand to them but there ya go. And it isn't my objective to make you leave the JW's.
I'm more level headed now and less heated then I was before, can you please elaborate on what you feel is the contradiction(i'm genuinely interested), I showed from scripture God commanded those to kill to gain a land that he promised and to "protect his nation"(Joshua 1:1-6).
You claim scripture says you are not allowed to kill. Yet God will let you kill if he gives you the green light. This a contradiction in God's character because nowhere near the listing of this commandment does it say (unless I say it's okay), making God a liar.
I understand that the commandment refers to murder, which is NEVER okay. Also I pointed out where God said not to allow innocent blood to be spilt on the land he gave them. And a scripture showing permission for self defense. Therefore your belief that a country cannot defend itself constitutes a contradiction in scripture, making the bible unreliable.
With all due respect almost every church is praying for those to kill other people sometimes they pray(practically during World War 1 and 2) to kill other christians or people who believe in the same lord. The church has a tremendous history of supporting Nationalistic interests which is in many respects a religion itself. I'll leave one last scripture.
That is an appalling thing to say. You cannot just assert what other people pray for and the intentions in their heart when they pray?! The wars America has fought have not been about going around and asking people if they are Christian and then killing them if they say yes! That is ridiculous. That's tantamount to claiming to be God yourself!
4 Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.( James 4:4)
I'm not even entirely sure what your point is with this scripture. But joining the military is not befriending the world. Our country must have a defense or we are at the will of any person who would come and destroy us.
This whole argument is so insane to me to even be having. It blows my mind that anyone would be looked DOWN on for such a thing.
Listen, you are an intelligent person. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs and I'm truly sorry I got so emotional in my responses to you.
I love my country. I don't necessarily love the way the government runs it but I love what my country stands for and I honor the people willing to die for her. So this issue is too emotional for me to continue with. You have your opinions on it. I believe your interpretation of scripture is in error, but what does that mean to me?
Not much.
I suppose on a bigger scale it means, if you want to fight for your country and be a Christian......don't be a JW.
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Actually if you can find a verse that has Christ's disciples killing people I'll leave the JW's.
Peter called death on Annanias and Saphira. You will probably argue that he didn't actually lay a hand to them but there ya go. And it isn't my objective to make you leave the JW's.
I'm more level headed now and less heated then I was before, can you please elaborate on what you feel is the contradiction(i'm genuinely interested), I showed from scripture God commanded those to kill to gain a land that he promised and to "protect his nation"(Joshua 1:1-6).
You claim scripture says you are not allowed to kill. Yet God will let you kill if he gives you the green light. This a contradiction in God's character because nowhere near the listing of this commandment does it say (unless I say it's okay), making God a liar.
I understand that the commandment refers to murder, which is NEVER okay. Also I pointed out where God said not to allow innocent blood to be spilt on the land he gave them. And a scripture showing permission for self defense. Therefore your belief that a country cannThe ot defend itself constitutes a contradiction in scripture, making the bible unreliable.
Church has a tremendous history of supporting Nationalistic interests which is in many respects a religion itself. I'll leave one last scripture.
That is an appalling thing to say. You cannot just assert what other people pray for and the intentions in their heart when they pray?! The wars America has fought have not been about going around and asking people if they are Christian and then killing them if they say yes! That is ridiculous. That's tantamount to claiming to be God yourself!
4 Adulteresses, do YOU not know that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.( James 4:4)
I'm not even entirely sure what your point is with this scripture. But joining the military is not befriending the world. Our country must have a defense or we are at the will of any person who would come and destroy us.
This whole argument is so insane to me to even be having. It blows my mind that anyone would be looked DOWN on for such a thing.
Listen, you are an intelligent person. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs and I'm truly sorry I got so emotional in my responses to you.
I love my country. I don't necessarily love the way the government runs it but I love what my country stands for and I honor the people willing to die for her. So this issue is too emotional for me to continue with. You have your opinions on it. I believe your interpretation of scripture is in error, but what does that mean to me?
Not much.
I suppose on a bigger scale it means, if you want to fight for your country and be a Christian......don't be a JW.
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Peter called death on Annanias and Saphira. You will probably argue that he didn't actually lay a hand to them but there ya go. And it isn't my objective to make you leave the JW's.
While I will indeed argue he didn't do it directly i'm interested in reading the account(show me please the scripture), becomes slighty open minded.
You claim scripture says you are not allowed to kill. Yet God will let you kill if he gives you the green light. This a contradiction in God's character because nowhere near the listing of this commandment does it say (unless I say it's okay), making God a liar.
in the list it also says you must not steal, however when you take other people's stuff after you capture or kill them that's taking something that waasn't originally yours(stealing). God allowed that to happen after almost every war the Israaelites won, is he still a liar?
That is an appalling thing to say. You cannot just assert what other people pray for and the intentions in their heart when they pray?! The wars America has fought have not been about going around and asking people if they are Christian and then killing them if they say yes! That is ridiculous. That's tantamount to claiming to be God yourself!
I understand what's going on now, you think that only america fights for christianity and not other countries. That's why i'm not getting through. America is not the only christian nation in the world, While your right I can't know the motives of people's prayers, when you see clergy blessing troops what else comes to mine? Here are just some countries that are predominantly christian.
Europe, Russia, the Americas, the Philippines, Southern Africa, Central Africa, East Africa and Oceania
Here is a list of the countries where it's the state religion
Argentina (Roman Catholic Church)[8], Bolivia (Roman Catholic Church and Christianity)[9], Costa Rica (Roman Catholic Church)[10], Denmark (Danish National Church)[11], El Salvador (Roman Catholic Church)[12], England (Church of England)[13], Greece (Church of Greece), Georgia (Georgian Orthodox Church), Iceland (Church of Iceland)[14], Liechtenstein (Roman Catholic Church)[15], Malta (Roman Catholic Church)[16], Monaco (Roman Catholic Church)[17], Norway (Church of Norway)[18], Vatican City (Roman Catholic Church)[19], Switzerland (Roman Catholic Church, Swiss Reformed Church and Christian Catholic Church of Switzerland
And to top it all off Christianity is the second largest religion in the middle east. My dear, this is why I don't want people killed do whatever you can not to kill people, the supporters of Nationalism are going to kill off fellow christians in the name of their respective governments who are supposedly Christian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Defend yourself to the best of your ability without killing.
Here's a vision of the HARLOT(false religion) made drunk with the blood(killing in the name of this B@#$! I mean Harlot) of the holy ones and witnesses of Jesus(Christians) riding on top of the world political powers(Wild beast)(Revelation 17:1-15)
1 And one of the seven angels that had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying: “Come, I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.”
3 And he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit into a wilderness. And I caught sight of a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and was adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls and had in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her fornication. 5 And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.” 6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.
Well, on catching sight of her I wondered with great wonderment. 7 And so the angel said to me: “Why is it you wondered? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns: 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.
9 “Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth [king], but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.
12 “And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast. 13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 14 These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so].”
15 And he says to me: “The waters that you saw, where the harlot is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.
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While I will indeed argue he didn't do it directly i'm interested in reading the account(show me please the scripture), becomes slighty open minded.
Acts 5 I believe
I understand what's going on now, you think that only america fights for christianity and not other countries.
No I don't. Nor did I previously to your post. I am aware of the history of Americas wars and who were her allies and enemies. I may not be an encyclopedia but I am not completely ignorant either.
Like I said I am not debating this issue further. I like you as a person but I dislike the idea that someone was kicked out of their church for joining the military. My views will not change and I have said all I want to say about the matter :-X
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We are in hell period...life is hell to go threw.We all make it to Heaven once we sleep forever(DIE)...*bleep* Hell could be fun if you make it that way.But Heaven is all silent peace forever.
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ok im back just this one last time, and shernajwine this is not for you this time.....
so the bible says its ok to protect yourself but not kill, i get that, but you cant tell me that if the time came it meant to kill to protect your family, (wife,kids,mom,dad,grandparents,husband) iif someone had a gun to there heads and you had a gun next to you you would be stupid to just lay down and let them die, becuase you and i both know just peading to not do it wont work....
and also if the JW remembers about history it isnt the praying or the preaching that freed them to continue to have there religion it was the military that made that possible by defeating hitler, it also freed the jews but they dont seem to have a problem with the military so i go there with them. but yes the military kills and the bible says dont kill, but for the majority of the military it is only from self defense, and yes i was on of them. and yes i read and researched the bible, i found nowhere where it stated that you could not kill from self protection. if you can find that then please tell me where.
and as far as my religion goes i am pagan now, but no im not wiccan, am actually celtic but studing wicca for the 2 are actually very close to each other. and as far as the movie the craft goes its actually more gothic then pagan, and gothic took from pagan a lot but not everything, so watching the craft makes you not a expert on the subject
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ok im back just this one last time, and shernajwine this is not for you this time.....
so the bible says its ok to protect yourself but not kill, i get that, but you cant tell me that if the time came it meant to kill to protect your family, (wife,kids,mom,dad,grandparents,husband) iif someone had a gun to there heads and you had a gun next to you you would be stupid to just lay down and let them die, becuase you and i both know just peading to not do it wont work....
and also if the JW remembers about history it isnt the praying or the preaching that freed them to continue to have there religion it was the military that made that possible by defeating hitler, it also freed the jews but they dont seem to have a problem with the military so i go there with them. but yes the military kills and the bible says dont kill, but for the majority of the military it is only from self defense, and yes i was on of them. and yes i read and researched the bible, i found nowhere where it stated that you could not kill from self protection. if you can find that then please tell me where.
and as far as my religion goes i am pagan now, but no im not wiccan, am actually celtic but studing wicca for the 2 are actually very close to each other. and as far as the movie the craft goes its actually more gothic then pagan, and gothic took from pagan a lot but not everything, so watching the craft makes you not a expert on the subject
Your comments are in bold(hopefully I won't bold myself)
so the bible says its ok to protect yourself but not kill, i get that, but you cant tell me that if the time came it meant to kill to protect your family, (wife,kids,mom,dad,grandparents,husband) iif someone had a gun to there heads and you had a gun next to you you would be stupid to just lay down and let them die, becuase you and i both know just peading to not do it wont work....
Although i'm with the JW's I don't support some of the things they say such as stay away from "apostate content" on the internet(yep I actually try to use my brain to decide for myself). If I was in that situation I would shoot the person in the leg or some body part where I won't kill him. Yeah i'm not allowed to use weapons such as a gun but I value my families life as well and again it doesn't say how to defend yourself but rather don't kill.
and also if the JW remembers about history it isnt the praying or the preaching that freed them to continue to have there religion it was the military that made that possible by defeating hitler, it also freed the jews but they dont seem to have a problem with the military so i go there with them. but yes the military kills and the bible says dont kill, but for the majority of the military it is only from self defense, and yes i was on of them. and yes i read and researched the bible, i found nowhere where it stated that you could not kill from self protection. if you can find that then please tell me where.
You can't say the military did this or that for the JW's because the JW's are worldwide and the U.S. military doesn't fight everywhere at the same time now does it oh wait it does under different names!!!! At the same time the JW's where in that mess because they refused to fight for the military(in every country) remember? So the nationalistic fighting(militaries) is just as responsible for the imprisonment.What gave the JW's there rights was appealing to the Government their rights to preach.
While the bible doesn't say you can't kill for protection, it does say YOU would be killed if you kill. If your reasoning is why must I follow this if i'm going to die anyway read my final comments and scriptures at the bottom of this page.
Matthew 26:52 Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Revelation 13:9-10 10 If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.
and as far as my religion goes i am pagan now, but no im not wiccan, am actually celtic but studing wicca for the 2 are actually very close to each other. and as far as the movie the craft goes its actually more gothic then pagan, and gothic took from pagan a lot but not everything, so watching the craft makes you not a expert on the subject
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your comment about watching a movie doesn't make you an expert is one of the few things we agree on. Actually if anyone claims there an expert on a subject just cause they watched a film needs help. I'll agree that there's truths in all movies even the animated ones but not enough to make you an expert. I'm willing to make threads that are question and answer about various belief systems can I start with yours?
I'm almost 90% sure your going to skip this section, however i'm going to post it anyway and then tell me what you think. Here's some help for what your about to read
Dragon= Devil
Beasts= Political systems
Sea= People
Earth= Established human society
Heads= Kingdoms or governments
13 And it stood still upon the sand of the sea.
And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. 2 Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were as those of a bear, and its mouth was as a lion’s mouth. And the dragon gave to [the beast] its power and its throne and great authority.
3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones.
11 And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. 12 And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and those who dwell in it worship the first wild beast, whose death-stroke got healed. 13 And it performs great signs, so that it should even make fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.
14 And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. 15 And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast.
16 And it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, 17 and that nobody might be able to buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name. 18 Here is where wisdom comes in: Let the one that has intelligence calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.(Revelation 13)
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first know it was the military that made freedom of religion possible, if all it took was the pleading and protesting then hitler was not a military leader history made him out to be, and would have not killed so many people.
and i am not sure what the last part was to mean, i know you claim it talks of the devil the people, the society and all that. but i dont believe there is the devel per say. meaening i believe the devel exists but only in ourselves, not as christianity say he does exists.
and for you to not support everything that JW says or preach, is wrong in there eyes as well. i know i was also asked by them to not ask questions that leads to them not being true. and i was doing this at a young age, i forced to join at 8 years old by my ex step dad and at that time yes i was only asking to learn more, but now i dont ask i research my own to find truth.
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first know it was the military that made freedom of religion possible, if all it took was the pleading and protesting then hitler was not a military leader history made him out to be, and would have not killed so many people.
and i am not sure what the last part was to mean, i know you claim it talks of the devil the people, the society and all that. but i dont believe there is the devel per say. meaening i believe the devel exists but only in ourselves, not as christianity say he does exists.
and for you to not support everything that JW says or preach, is wrong in there eyes as well. i know i was also asked by them to not ask questions that leads to them not being true. and i was doing this at a young age, i forced to join at 8 years old by my ex step dad and at that time yes i was only asking to learn more, but now i dont ask i research my own to find truth.
first know it was the military that made freedom of religion possible, if all it took was the pleading and protesting then hitler was not a military leader history made him out to be, and would have not killed so many people.
The military can't possibly give freedom(all over the world), the JW's are worldwide you can't suggest that the militaries victories gave them freedom all over the world. Even after world wars 1 and 2 the JW's still had to plead for freedom of religion to the Gov's in U.S. and other countries. Why would they have to do that if the U.S. military gave them the freedom? What people plead for and protest is considered by the Gov, depending on the type of Gov and what x group pleads for is what determines Gov's decisions and how long it takes for them to grant it. As for Hitler he did what every Gov today does!!!!! Look after their own country before others and attack those that don't support or call them out for hypocrisy or something unjust(sedition). He was just more extreme and far more racist. Let's just see how racist and evil he is maybe it will have High school FC users asking what about the non Jewish people Hitler attacked!!!!!!!!!
Who Were the Five Million Non-Jewish Holocaust Victims?
Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany.
For Their Race They Were Executed
Like the Jews, the Rom Gypsies were chosen for total annihilation just because of their race. Even though Jews are defined by religion, Hitler saw the Jewish people as a race that he believed needed to be completely annihilated. Like the Jews, the Rom Gypsies also were a nomadic people that were persecuted throughout history. Both groups were denied certain privileges in many European countries. The Germans believed both the Jews and the Gypsies were racially inferior and degenerate and therefore worthless. Like the Jews, the Gypsies were also moved into special areas set up by the Nazis. Half a million Gypsies, almost the entire Eastern European Gypsy population, was wiped out during the Holocaust.
Sterilization for Black Children
Prior to World War I, there were very few dark-skinned people of African descent in Germany. But, during World War I, black African soldiers were brought in by the French during the Allied occupation. Most of the Germans, who were very race conscious, despised the dark-skinned "invasion". Some of these black soldiers married white German women that bore children referred to as "Rhineland Bastards" or the "Black Disgrace". In Mein Kampf, Hitler said he would eliminate all the children born of African-German descent because he considered them an "insult" to the German nation.
"The mulatto children came about through rape or the white mother was a *bleep*," Hitler wrote. "In both cases, there is not the slightest moral duty regarding these offspring of a foreign race." The Nazis set up a secret group, Commission Number 3, to organize the sterilization of these "Rhineland Bastards" to keep intact the purity of the Aryan race. In 1937, all local authorities in Germany were to submit a list of all the mulattos. Then, these children were taken from their homes or schools without parental permission and put before the commission. Once a child was decided to be of black descent, the child was taken immediately to a hospital and sterilized. About 400 children were medically sterilized -- many times without their parents' knowledge.
Priests and Pastors Died for Their Beliefs.
Hitler wanted not only to conquer all of Europe, but Hitler also wanted to create a new religion and to replace Jesus Christ as a person to be worshipped. Hitler expected his followers to worship the *bleep* ideology. Since Catholic priests and Christian pastors were often influential leaders in their community, they were sought out by the Nazis very early. Thousands of Catholic priests and Christian pastors were forced into concentration camps. A special barracks was set up at Dachau, the camp near Munich, Germany, for clergymen. A few survived; some were executed, but most were allowed to die slowly of starvation or disease.
All the above is from this website http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/non-jewishvictims.htm (http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/non-jewishvictims.htm)
The last one is interesting because Hitler turned on one of it's biggest supporters from religion!!!!!!!!!!!(http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm) (http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm))
Don't think for a second any of the stuff above can't happen in any Gov especially the last one where the Gov turns on religion!!!!!!!(Revelation 17:15-16) I think that even Atheists agree this is going to happen.
and for you to not support everything that JW says or preach, is wrong in there eyes as well. i know i was also asked by them to not ask questions that leads to them not being true. and i was doing this at a young age, i forced to join at 8 years old by my ex step dad and at that time yes i was only asking to learn more, but now i dont ask i research my own to find truth.
Some in the JW's view them as the final authority unforunately, others view them(the leadership) as fallible men trying there best to give people practical advice on bible matters. I'm in the latter and you can't please everyone. In the end it's my life and the reason i'm with is because of there worldwide unity despite racial, economic, social and even tribe divisions in some countries. It's true the churches have these traits but are the churches even within the same denomination the same in all the aspects I listed in every country? Your questions were causing doubt which unforunately overzealous people will interpret the wrong way. I'm glad I have my Uncle who really searches this stuff out even though he's a reinstated JW and he does do research on the JW history. How did your ex
step dad force you? Did he "drag you to the halls every week"? My mom who never goes to the meetings anymore(Barack became president and now she pretty much isolated herself from every race but black people) did that to me
when I was 8.
and i am not sure what the last part was to mean, i know you claim it talks of the devil the people, the society and all that. but i dont believe there is the devel per say. meaening i believe the devel exists but only in ourselves, not as christianity say he does exists.
I would love to discuss how you come to that conclusion(in another thread) especially since this will have people talking to themselves in the bible. Also may I know if I can do a question and answer of your belief system in another thread?
If you can go back to my previous post and read Revelation 13 again and ask any questions you may have.
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yes i know it was more then the JW or the jews being tormented by hitler, but i wasnt trying to drag out the post by naming everyone. im not totally retarded here. but yes the mitary can be everywhere, that is why we station our troops everywhere.
and i also just want to thank you so very much, you have opened my eyes now, the thing i thought i was fighting for and was doing wasnt never possible of me to do. the mitary cant give freedoms, so i was wrong, i wasnt fighting to keep our freedoms from being threatened or to help free other countryies as well. thank you for telling me everything i believed i was doing was for the good wasnt.
and since i wont go back to what i believe is to be a hypricritical cult of a religion, i will have to face i am going to hell and meet the devil. as christianity says i will.
but before i do meet him i have one thing else to say. if jehovah is so all powerful and can do anything, then if he does exist i dare him to just strike me down where i sit.
.............................................oops im still here i wander
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if jehovah is so all powerful and can do anything, then if he does exist i dare him to just strike me down where i sit.
.............................................oops im still here i wander
God can do anything, but he doesn't want to strike you where you sit because he loves you. :heart:
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if jehovah is so all powerful and can do anything, then if he does exist i dare him to just strike me down where i sit.
.............................................oops im still here i wander
God can do anything, but he doesn't want to strike you where you sit because he loves you. :heart:
8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. (2 Peter 3:8-9)
@Travis: Make I start a question and answer thread about your beliefs?
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sure you can start if you wish
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The funny thing is.... out of EVERYONE who would take a "position" on this... if asked..... could not VERIFY ANYTHING..... but "their own" PERSONAL EXPERIENCES n BELIEFS!!! KNOW THIS FOLKS...... anything you cannot verify is FICTION to anyone else...... there is absolutely NO REASON to get "upset" or "worked up" about anyones FICTIONAL OPINIONS!!!
When a group of people have spent the last 500 plus years trying to force their "fiction" onto your people and the same "fictional" beliefs are directly responsible for the deaths of in excess of 10 million of your Relations, then tell me there is nothing to get worked up about. Until then you do you, let everyone else do themselves and try to limit your "opinion" about issues you have absolutely no clue of.
Before I end up making any..... well.... ASSUMPTIONS.... I'd try to VERIFY even your seemingly emotional STATEMENTS.... with a few mere questions of course!!!!
Are you suggesting that the actual attempt to "force" fiction on a group of people... is "RESPONSIBLE" for anyone's death...?
Are you suggesting that any of my OWN opinions.... do NOT "let everyone do themselves".... or that they somehow pass any judgements...?
What "issue"... are you suggesting I have "no clue of" to begin with...?
Are you suggesting that creating a "limit" for my OPINIONS... will in some way create some type of REMEDY.....??
If so..... What are the DAMAGES caused by a "limitless" opinion... that would need such a remedy...?
Whatever your answers are.... wouldn't it seem quite "insane" for me to JUDGE your standing... place a LABEL(right/wrong) on it... and decide to cause you DAMAGES behind it...?
Why exactly is it NOT ok for ANYONE to have these same opinions of RELIGION....?
Do even their opinions cause any DAMAGES to anyone.... by just being DIFFERENT???
Is it possible that it's NOT the belief/opinion itself that "damages" someone... but the ACTIONS taken "in the name" of these beliefs/opinions...??
What is the IMPORTANCE in trying to convince someone else of your beliefs...??
Is it possible that the VIOLENCE that may occur due to a "difference of opinion".... may have an original MOTIVE based on CONTROL....??
Is it possible that NITHER opinion or belief system or any RELIGION is NECESSARY for having an original motive for CONTROL....????
Is it possible that many people have placed BLAME(judgement) on different opinions... for many UNDESIREABLE EVENTS and MOTIVES.... that needed only human will....????
-jussathought-
Ok Dorkbudd, that made my head hurt trying to understand what you were asking in some of them questions, but I will answer a few but briefly for now as I had oral surgery today and really don't feel up to lengthy debate at this time.
yes
yes
genocide
no and n/a
the rest will have to wait for another time
I understand..... perhaps YOUR THINKING isn't adequate to expand beyond what you're "told".... verbally OR WRITTEN. It's not that uncommon. Society has LONG been CONDITIONED to "take direction" in their "thinking" and "learning"..... from some OTHER PERSON who belives they "know truth" and YOU DON'T!!!
Here is a more SIMPLE question for you then.....
How much of what you "know" and "stand behind" can YOU VERIFY YOURSELF...???
(excluding someones else's OPINION.... verbal OR WRITTEN)
-thinkaboudid-
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The Lord allows all to have a free will. As for me, I have placed my trust and faith in what the Lord says through His might instruction book, The Holy Bible. He has a plan for me and I believe all that He has promised and pray for those who can't/won't allow the Holy Spirit to open the Truth to their hearts.
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I agree. Jesus wants you to accept Him as your Savior. He loved the world so much that He died for our sins on the cross.
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I think it really depends on how people define "accepting Jesus into their lives". Those reading the Bible literally would take it to mean that only Christians can get into heaven. That means Moses, Wise King Solomon, Noah, King David, etc. are all going to hell, since they all lived before Jesus was born, and therefore could not have known Jesus. What an uncaring God, if that were the case! I tend to favor the teaching more in line with the Catholic doctrine that says if you live your life in line with the teachings of Jesus -- whether you knew about him or not -- that you were living with the spirit of Jesus in your life. This is why those great, holy figures of the past would still be allowed into heaven.
I think that can even extend to atheists that may have heard about Jesus and the Bible, but choose not to believe. Most atheists I know try to rationalize religion to the point that they cannot see how aspects of religion can coincide with their own life experiences. "If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving, why would He allow Hitler to exist or cause such atrocities?" I think it is good and even what God want us to do, to question our lives and use our God-given talent of using our rational mind. I mean, did Jesus banish the apostle Thomas to hell for not believing in Jesus' resurrection without the physical proof? I'm thinking that if Thomas was alive today, he might possibly be that scientist that cured cancer, but remained an atheist because he never had physical proof for God's existence... If an atheist lives a good life helping their fellow man, and their only fault is that by using their God-given talent to rationalize away from religion / God's existence, you could still get into heaven because unknowingly, you've actually accepted Jesus into your life.
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You can call yourself whatever you want but as long as you know and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as the Saviour He is and that He was born of virgin conception, He lived a sinless life, He voluntarily gave His earthly body to take the sins of all believers to the cross of calvary, He was buried, He arose & appeared again in three days, and He is in heaven preparing a wonderful place until time for the rapture. Then He will call the professed believers ~ those that have died already then those still living ~ to meet Him in the air to be with Him during the next seven years of tribulation. He and His Grand Army will then defeat satan and all the demons. We will then live with him for 1,000 years on a wonderfuly restored earth. Then it is heaven forever.
Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Christian, Protestant, etc. are all the same in the Lord's eyes if they have placed their trust in Him and His works. I praise the Lord that He will let any type of sinners repent and enter into His grace.
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I have a few questions.
1. Thessalonians 4:16 is talking about saints, are we all going to be saints someday?
2. How are we restored to a paradise on earth if "all good people go to heaven"?
3. "He and His Grand Army will then defeat satan and all the demons", nowhere in Revelation does Jesus lead angels!!!!!!!!!!!!! does this mean that Jesus is Michael the archangel??!!!!
Ivstephanie hit the nail on the head, accepting Jesus in your life is not empty belief but doing the will of his father in heaven, JESUS WAS JEWISH
Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.(Matthew 7:21 Young's literal)
Also there's going to be a resurrection of unrighteous so those who died before knowing Christ or even his father(Yahweh,Jehovah, Jahweh YHWH etc) will get a second chance.
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.(Acts 24:15 KINGS JAMES VERSION)
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Quote from teflonfanatic:
@Jcribb: What did Paul mean when he said fellow WORKERS to Aquilla and priscilla in Romans 16:3?
In Romans 16 Paul greets several people, with the most notable of these being Priscilla and Aquila. Both Aquila and Priscilla were in Rome until about AD 49 when Claudius expelled all the Jews from the city (Acts 18:2). Paul met the couple when he came to Corinth (ca. AD 51). They did further ministry in Ephesus (Acts 18:19) around ca. AD 53. From there they went to Rome. It is likely that they were not the first ones to bring the gospel to Rome. A church was probably already established as it is noted that Paul greets the church that met in the their house (16:5).
(http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/intros/romans.cfm)
They were fellow workers in the cause of spreading the gospel of Christ throughout Rome. They were more known than others and apparently they had church in their home for Christians.
Right Paul meant the gospel, it's our work as Christians, call it work through grace of faith, but Paul still said that they are WORKERS in Christ.
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My thought is that if god exists why would he behave like humans. From the bible you can see that he is jealous and possessive. Wanting followers to seek only Him. Who would grant free will and then demand obedience. This is how a human would behave. Or better put how one would create a mythical being in order to serve a human's purpose. The world needed obedience, law, order, ethics and morals that is what religion provides. As for heaven and hell I believe them to be tools to get people to comply. We are scared of death and the unknown what better way to play on this fear than to promise heaven awaits you when you die as long as you follow certain rules. It is a nice thought but unrealistic. You only get one life so live your life like you want, treat others as you want to be treated for your own sake and not for God's.
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My thought is that if god exists why would he behave like humans. From the bible you can see that he is jealous and possessive. Wanting followers to seek only Him. Who would grant free will and then demand obedience. This is how a human would behave. Or better put how one would create a mythical being in order to serve a human's purpose. The world needed obedience, law, order, ethics and morals that is what religion provides. As for heaven and hell I believe them to be tools to get people to comply. We are scared of death and the unknown what better way to play on this fear than to promise heaven awaits you when you die as long as you follow certain rules. It is a nice thought but unrealistic. You only get one life so live your life like you want, treat others as you want to be treated for your own sake and not for God's.
Where created in his image to the last detail. Even the Hebrew word for God which is Elohim is used for Judges, mighty ones, ANGELS and rulers.
Most if not all Christian religions teach that God is a type of being. This is false the word God is a title that means what I listed above. God's nature or being is actually spirit as Jesus himself says.
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."(John 4:24 New American Standard Bible)
Angels are also called Elohim(God)
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.(Psalms 82:1 KING JAMES VERSION)
He demands worship because he created all things including Jesus.
14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,(Revelation 3:14 NWT)
11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”(Revelation 4:11 NWT)
While not explicitly stated in scripture it's clear that the almighty(mightiest of the mighty spirit beings) cares about his own vindication more then the blessing of his servants, which is why Satan is allowed to rule this world, to prove that he is a liar and him and humans can't rule without him and he gives us the free will to find that out for ourselves. It's also the reason why the Almighty doesn't always intervene when people are in times of great distress such as the holocaust, trafficking etc.
For more info read the whole entire book of Job...
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Believe What you want to be believe. If you reject Christ as your Lord and Savior. There is a place for you Hell. I hope you find understanding. God is loving and dont want anyone to perish.
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Believe What you want to be believe. If you reject Christ as your Lord and Savior. There is a place for you Hell. I hope you find understanding.
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God is loving and dont want anyone to perish.
=
:bs:
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I believe that everyone that asks God for forgiveness for everything that he/she have done wrong will get into heaven; but we have to remember that unlike people God looks at the heart of a person.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good works won't get you there... and denial of GOD who sent HIS only SON to die for your sin issues a curse. you can take it from there.
good point i don't think that you have to be a christian in order to enter heaven as long as you have faith in him and do his will.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good works won't get you there... and denial of GOD who sent HIS only SON to die for your sin issues a curse. you can take it from there.
good point i don't think that you have to be a christian in order to enter heaven as long as you have faith in him and do his will.
If you do his will you'll put the father and his kingdom first because that's what Jesus prayed for...
9“Therefore, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
10 May your kingdom come.
May your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.(Matthew 6:9-10)
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Good works won't get you there... and denial of GOD who sent HIS only SON to die for your sin issues a curse. you can take it from there.
good point i don't think that you have to be a christian in order to enter heaven as long as you have faith in him and do his will.
If you do his will you'll put the father and his kingdom first because that's what Jesus prayed for...
9“Therefore, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
10 May your kingdom come.
May your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.(Matthew 6:9-10)
... as useless as the computer it's typed on, my dear! Why don't you try believing in something you can see with your own two eyes, Hell-take a picture of the lord if you find him, take some video or something with you chatting with him on a summer's day-saying that exact prayer!!!
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
I know what you mean you think it's irrational to believe in a document full of things unseen, but it's about as real to me as feelings and I can't see those, I can rationalize the expressions of people as happy or sad etc but I can't literally see emotions.
Good works won't get you there... and denial of GOD who sent HIS only SON to die for your sin issues a curse. you can take it from there.
good point i don't think that you have to be a christian in order to enter heaven as long as you have faith in him and do his will.
If you do his will you'll put the father and his kingdom first because that's what Jesus prayed for...
9“Therefore, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
10 May your kingdom come.
May your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.(Matthew 6:9-10)
... as useless as the computer it's typed on, my dear! Why don't you try believing in something you can see with your own two eyes, Hell-take a picture of the lord if you find him, take some video or something with you chatting with him on a summer's day-saying that exact prayer!!!
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I belive if you do good things in this life you will be rewarded Hebrews 6:10 "god is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them". buuuut it says nothing about if you dont belive ( dont take my word though cause it might) just do good things and see the outcome maybe youll find faith that theres somthing bigger than you if not than thats your choice but to bring people down and tell them theres nothing out there... now does that seem noble?
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Putting this out the
every person i know that believes in some kind of god is pretty cool and pretty respectful
every atheist i know are complete jerks to all other "believers"
the person that started this post is just backs ups what im saying, but i was taught to forgive
i hope everyone finds God you will find that you will always be loved
Romans 1:16 I am Unashamed of the Good and Holy Jesus Christ.
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Putting this out the
every person i know that believes in some kind of god is pretty cool and pretty respectful
every atheist i know are complete jerks to all other "believers"
Why do you think you see this with those people, Mapl? Because I have seen both 'parties' be both things.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
We can thank GOD that we are only responsible to tell, and if they hear that is good. Or perhaps we plant a seed. We are not required to
do any more. if they refuse to hear, we are to dust our feet and go on. We do not have to answer at Judgment for their sin, only our own.
I know what you mean you think it's irrational to believe in a document full of things unseen, but it's about as real to me as feelings and I can't see those, I can rationalize the expressions of people as happy or sad etc but I can't literally see emotions.
Good works won't get you there... and denial of GOD who sent HIS only SON to die for your sin issues a curse. you can take it from there.
good point i don't think that you have to be a christian in order to enter heaven as long as you have faith in him and do his will.
If you do his will you'll put the father and his kingdom first because that's what Jesus prayed for...
9“Therefore, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
10 May your kingdom come.
May your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.(Matthew 6:9-10)
... as useless as the computer it's typed on, my dear! Why don't you try believing in something you can see with your own two eyes, Hell-take a picture of the lord if you find him, take some video or something with you chatting with him on a summer's day-saying that exact prayer!!!
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that is a good question.. but i would answer it by sayin that 'human's' definition of a 'good person' is different than god's. just because you are smart (which would be a gift that god gave you) doesnt mean that you are worthy of heaven. it's not so much that you have to just accept christ, you have to live the life that he set out for you to live.
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
Teflon, you have given some great answers, but you are speaking to hard hearted individuals who will not look up until GOD
sends them a stroke... you are throwing your pearls before the swine... I wish you well, but I decided to dust my feet and walk.
to Let GOD handle them. HE is able.
I know what you mean you think it's irrational to believe in a document full of things unseen, but it's about as real to me as feelings and I can't see those, I can rationalize the expressions of people as happy or sad etc but I can't literally see emotions.
Good works won't get you there... and denial of GOD who sent HIS only SON to die for your sin issues a curse. you can take it from there.
good point i don't think that you have to be a christian in order to enter heaven as long as you have faith in him and do his will.
If you do his will you'll put the father and his kingdom first because that's what Jesus prayed for...
9“Therefore, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
10 May your kingdom come.
May your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.(Matthew 6:9-10)
... as useless as the computer it's typed on, my dear! Why don't you try believing in something you can see with your own two eyes, Hell-take a picture of the lord if you find him, take some video or something with you chatting with him on a summer's day-saying that exact prayer!!!
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that is a good question.. but i would answer it by sayin that 'human's' definition of a 'good person' is different than god's. just because you are smart (which would be a gift that god gave you) doesnt mean that you are worthy of heaven. it's not so much that you have to just accept christ, you have to live the life that he set out for you to live.
And what was that life pleasing Jesus or pleasing his father?
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it sounds like you don't even understand any of this, it can't be provin exept for what man says and who says that he is even right
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it sounds like you don't even understand any of this, it can't be peovin exept for what man says and who says that he is even right
Kinda like your post? on the way to 30 eh?
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he died on the cross for sure, but for my sins??? I highly doubt it and just because his name is Jesus does not make him the son of GOD. I know quite a few guys named Jesus does that make them the son of God, his parents are Joseph and Mary. so kind of sounds like this god of yours kidnapped Jesus and now is using that to tell people they will go to hell if the do the same thing
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Custer died for your sins :op
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he died on the cross for sure, but for my sins??? I highly doubt it and just because his name is Jesus does not make him the son of GOD. I know quite a few guys named Jesus does that make them the son of God, his parents are Joseph and Mary. so kind of sounds like this god of yours kidnapped Jesus and now is using that to tell people they will go to hell if the do the same thing
What about the fact that he turned water into wine. Walked on water. He caught a large number of fish. He calmed the sea. Giving sight to a blind man.
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Custer died for your sins :op
White Bull ftw!
What about the fact that he turned water into wine. Walked on water. He caught a large number of fish. He calmed the sea. Giving sight to a blind man.
Those aren't facts. Those are myths.
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Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. He said that himself. By thde way, doing good works will never qualify anyone to go to heaven.
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he died on the cross for sure, but for my sins??? I highly doubt it and just because his name is Jesus does not make him the son of GOD. I know quite a few guys named Jesus does that make them the son of God, his parents are Joseph and Mary. so kind of sounds like this god of yours kidnapped Jesus and now is using that to tell people they will go to hell if the do the same thing
What about the fact that he turned water into wine. Walked on water. He caught a large number of fish. He calmed the sea. Giving sight to a blind man.
big deal anyone can toss in food coloring and Vinegar in water and call it wine woohoo *hick* I can walk on water in the winter time(Ice) as for calming the sea..well the storm has got to pass sooner or later and helping the blind man see, he took the blind fold off the poor guy. Someone just put a blind fold on the armless guy. there's my reasoning. now prove it didn't happen that way.
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the bible clearly says the only way to get to heaven is throught the son (Jesus). If you choose not to believe, then you go to hell, its very simple. It does not matter how nice you are, if you dont believe you go to hell
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What about the fact that he turned water into wine. Walked on water. He caught a large number of fish. He calmed the sea. Giving sight to a blind man.
Those aren't facts. Those are myths.
Those aren't "myths", they are miracles and they are fact--- they were witnessed by others and the Bible has FOUR different people writing about them happening instead of just one.
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' (Psalm 53:1)
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Those aren't "myths", they are miracles and they are fact--- they were witnessed by others and the Bible has FOUR different people writing about them happening instead of just one.
They are myths by the definition. Unless you can prove that they were fact? Only 4 people?
The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. - Stephen Roberts
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Those aren't "myths", they are miracles and they are fact--- they were witnessed by others and the Bible has FOUR different people writing about them happening instead of just one.
They are myths by the definition. Unless you can prove that they were fact? Only 4 people?
I can't prove they were fact, I wasn't there. You can't prove they aren't fact because you weren't there either. Someday (and probably not that far into the future) everyone will have all the proof they need to know there were no "myths" in the Bible... (More than 4 people writing about the same events would have been a total random bore---don't you think?)
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
I believe only those who accept christ will go to heaven because if you don't accept him who will you accept in the bible he said he is a jealous God none before him It doesn't matter how good you are living right and believeing he died for your sins is what counts.
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I can't prove they were fact, I wasn't there. You can't prove they aren't fact because you weren't there either.
Considering Lord Raglan's Hero Scale, it's highly likely that it's a heavily romanticized story with a lot of stolen elements of other heroes that came before the story of Jesus. I really don't see how anyone could argue with that unless they're intentionally being irrational.
everyone will have all the proof they need to know there were no "myths" in the Bible... (More than 4 people writing about the same events would have been a total random bore---don't you think?)
I highly doubt this too. They are myths even on a worldly scale- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
And 4 people is furthest from enough to make something legit. If 4 people told you they saw a UFO and each had a different take on the finer details, you'd be a lil skeptical, right? But if 3,000+ different people --including scientists, historians, engineers, etc. etc.) came to you and said they saw the same thing and described it very well with no contradictions, you'd be a little more maleable in believing them.
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This video is, granted, a bit extreme and offensive, but it raises a good point: Accountability is a good thing. There are far too few people who take responsibility for their own actions in this world, and can you think of any reasons why? If nothing I do will ever be good enough, why should I waste my time being good?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWAUhadJzTk&feature=related
I like this video.
the bible clearly says the only way to get to heaven is throught the son (Jesus). If you choose not to believe, then you go to hell, its very simple. It does not matter how nice you are, if you dont believe you go to hell
That sounds like a pretty crappy heaven then because I know a lot of nice people who aren't Christians. I'll take hell. ;D
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
well hear we go again this is a never ending process. first of all am not anthiest i do be live their is a god and by his will and his will only should i accept christ am not saying that you have to attend church to accept him just be live in him and do his wil and do right then you'll be okay.
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Only God knows and God witness everything we do each day so when the time come God will judge and only him nothing else
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Only God knows and God witness everything we do each day so when the time come God will judge and only him nothing else
How do you know?
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So your telling me... that anyone who does not accept christ will be doomed to eternal suffering???
ok.
so what if...... i cured cancer. ended world hunger and made sure every child in the world got and education?... but heres the catch. i was an outspoken athiest who mocked religion and denied it completely. would your god send me to suffer for eternity, despite the fact of all the good i had done?
(http://www.fusioncash.net/sig.php/c6ebf2ba9fbd.png) (http://www.fusioncash.net/?ref=seventh1)
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the bible clearly says the only way to get to heaven is throught the son (Jesus). If you choose not to believe, then you go to hell, its very simple. It does not matter how nice you are, if you dont believe you go to hell
like i have said before the bible was written by man thats why the name KING JAMES is on the bible. there are so many version of that book it's sickning, and as for going to hell..well yeah i live near HELL,Michigan...LMFAO
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502mania, I agree completely. Heaven is not for good people. It is for manipulated people, in my opinion. Say you did cure case. It is not because god popped a thought in your head. It is because your research and education led you to deduce a solution that can prevent and stop cancer.
A serial murderer and rapist can get into heaven if he says at the end of his life "forgive me god for i have sinned" (basically), but an entire life searching for peace and helping people is not enough. This is why I would refuse to worship a god if i believed in one.
This is one of my problems with chrisitianity. It excuses immorality. People will immediately say that somebody who goes to church every sunday is a good person. Well what if me, as an atheist, spent every second a christian spends in church at a charity or helping the hungry and the sick and the poor. I would not be rewarded for it.
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This is one of my problems with chrisitianity. It excuses immorality. People will immediately say that somebody who goes to church every sunday is a good person. Well what if me, as an atheist, spent every second a christian spends in church at a charity or helping the hungry and the sick and the poor. I would not be rewarded for it.
From one atheist to another, welcome to FC. Excellent point made above, that's why I quoted it. I don't know how many things you have had a chance to read here in the forum, especially under Debate/Discuss, but don't be surprised to find out we are def the minority around here and often get some very testy remarks as a result. Don't let that run you off. There are a small group of very respectful, likeable, intelligent, and open-minded 'believers' as I'm sure you will find out and they make all the "You atheists will burn in hell after you get done ruining our country." somewhat palatable. ;)
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the bible clearly says the only way to get to heaven is throught the son (Jesus). If you choose not to believe, then you go to hell, its very simple. It does not matter how nice you are, if you dont believe you go to hell
like i have said before the bible was written by man thats why the name KING JAMES is on the bible. there are so many version of that book it's sickning, and as for going to hell..well yeah i live near HELL,Michigan...LMFAO
I just want to clarify here that King James didn't write the Bible. The Bible was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and some Greek. Then it was translated into Latin. Afterwards, the Puritans went to King James and asked him if he would authorize the translation into English, for understanding. No one was allowed to change anything of the Bible without special authorization or risked being put to death. He appointed approximately 100 scholars (who were all fluent in all of these languages) to translate the Bible. That's why it's considered the King James Version. I may be off slightly or blurred on complete history of it, but this is the main reason it was translated.
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Does this mean that other religion are fake and does not exist?
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This is one of my problems with chrisitianity. It excuses immorality. People will immediately say that somebody who goes to church every sunday is a good person. Well what if me, as an atheist, spent every second a christian spends in church at a charity or helping the hungry and the sick and the poor. I would not be rewarded for it.
From one atheist to another, welcome to FC. Excellent point made above, that's why I quoted it. I don't know how many things you have had a chance to read here in the forum, especially under Debate/Discuss, but don't be surprised to find out we are def the minority around here and often get some very testy remarks as a result. Don't let that run you off. There are a small group of very respectful, likeable, intelligent, and open-minded 'believers' as I'm sure you will find out and they make all the "You atheists will burn in hell after you get done ruining our country." somewhat palatable. ;)
I am a Christian. But being a Christian doesn't excuse immorality. I agree with you, too, that some people say that and I'm with you, here. Just because someone goes to church every Sunday doesn't mean they are a good person. There are all kinds of people who go to church for different reasons. Good works, whether done by Christians or non-christians, aren't the ticket to Heaven and rewards - faith is. No matter who gets out there and helps a charity, the hungry, sick, poor, etc., those people are wonderful for doing that, and I feel, need recognition for their efforts. But, there are just as many who are "active" in church and yet they can't be bothered to help with charities, etc.
I feel I'm rambling in a circle. I guess I'm just trying to say is that Christianity should never be used as an excuse to cover immorality or call someone good just because they go to church. Yes, Christians receive forgiveness for sin, but I don't believe they should spitefully be out there doing things like that, thinking, "Oh, it's okay, I'll just ask forgiveness and it'll be okay." We are all accountable for our actions. You made an excellent point, for sure! :)
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it will happen to to anyone that is not in his church on earth so u knead to fined his one and only church.and not one that is made by man .
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Yes. If you do not accept god as your savior, you will go to hell.
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THE DEVIL IS A LIE. THERE IS A ALMIGHTY GOD UP ABOVE BELIEVE THAT.
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The BIBLE is just another book at a book store
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I'm a Muslim and to go to heaven u must accept there is only 1 god and Jesus is NOT son of god nor god. U only submit to god. Jesus is just a prophet. Stop worshipping him u idiots!
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I'm a Muslim and to go to heaven u must accept there is only 1 god and Jesus is NOT son of god nor god. U only submit to god. Jesus is just a prophet. Stop worshipping him u idiots!
Oddly enough, the Arabic term 'islam' literally means "surrender," or "submission." Islam's believers (known as "Muslims" from the active participle of "islam"), accept surrender to the will of Allah (the Arabic word for God).
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I'm a Muslim and to go to heaven u must accept there is only 1 god and Jesus is NOT son of god nor god. U only submit to god. Jesus is just a prophet. Stop worshipping him u idiots!
I don't accept your islamic god, "Allah", either! Your god is not my God the Father.
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I'm a Muslim and to go to heaven u must accept there is only 1 god and Jesus is NOT son of god nor god. U only submit to god. Jesus is just a prophet. Stop worshipping him u idiots!
I don't accept your islamic god, "Allah", either! Your god is not my God the Father.
This sounds a lot like how the 'crusades' began ... and continue, somewhat less overtly.
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I'm a Muslim and to go to heaven u must accept there is only 1 god and Jesus is NOT son of god nor god. U only submit to god. Jesus is just a prophet. Stop worshipping him u idiots!
Oh man this is gonna be good.
This sounds a lot like how the 'crusades' began ... and continue, somewhat less overtly.
No! Nooooo! You called it too soon! Ugh I just made the popcorn and everything :'(
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I'm a Muslim and to go to heaven u must accept there is only 1 god and Jesus is NOT son of god nor god. U only submit to god. Jesus is just a prophet. Stop worshipping him u idiots!
Oh man this is gonna be good.
This sounds a lot like how the 'crusades' began ... and continue, somewhat less overtly.
No! Nooooo! You called it too soon! Ugh I just made the popcorn and everything :'(
Maybe there'll be a jihad here anyway but somehow, I doubt it.
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502mania: I believe one's eternal destiny, according to my interpretation of the Bible, hangs on whether or not you personally believe and acknowledge that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. Everyone has sinned and noone is good enough to get to heaven on their own. (Romans 3:23) There is nothing we can do to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5). It's by grace that we are saved and not by works...otherwise grace would no longer be "grace". (Romans 11:6) Jesus was born to die for our sins so that we would not have to. Three days after His death, He rose from the grave (Romans 4:25), proving Himself victorious over death. He bridged the gap between God and man so that we may have a personal relationship with Him if we only believe. Most people believe in God, even Satan does. But to receive salvation, we must turn to God, form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him. We must trust in Jesus with everything we have and everything we do. "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:22). The Bible teaches that there is no other way to salvation than through Christ. Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus is the ONLY way of salvation because He is the only One who can pay our sin penalty (Romans 6:23). Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ! “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). IMO, there is a Day of Judgement coming for EVERYONE, God will judge every one at that time. He will know exactly what has been in each person's heart, He knows each person's every thought....He will know every action one ever made. He will know exactly how many times one heard "the message of Christ" and ignored it. He will also know those that never heard the message of Christ (and what happens there I'm not certain but I know He will be fair & just). He will know every motive, there will be no hiding anything from Him. I also kind of think satan will be there "reminding" God of every awful thing a person has done and he will be having a joyful time laying claim to the souls that belong to him. (In my opinion, Judgment Day will be a day when time is UP...GAME OVER and God & Satan will "divide up" what belongs to them. Those that aren't covered by the blood of Christ, those that never wanted to give God a second thought, those that were deceived by satan will now be officially "given" to satan (they now officially belong to satan, God is done wasting His time on them) and they all will be spending eternity in hell and as powerful as satan is...I think one can bet that he will "reign" there. ALL of his evil-ness (most of which the average human has been unaware of while their time on earth) will be "unleashed". He is the total opposite of God and as glorious as God is...I think will be as horrendous as a angry Satan would be. (I don't believe satan will be happy in hell, I think his wrath will be poured out for an eternity on all those who go there with him.) Those that had a personal relationship with Christ, those that are covered by His blood have been forgiven...they are the souls that Satan could NEVER have as they belong to God. He will take them and go on to reign with them in heaven. I don't believe there is anything on earth worth missing Heaven for. I think a person should live their life to make SURE they don't end up in hell someday because the path to heaven IS narrow and it is FEW that find it. (There is NOTHING in the Bible that says a child molester cannot be forgiven if they repent and change their ways. There is nothing in the Bible that says certain races, tribes or religious denominations will be excluded from heaven. I believe there will be a mix including some of every race, tribe and religious denomination both in heaven and in hell. I also think there will be a mix of people that accomplished great things during their time on earth in both heaven and hell.) It isn't about who or what we are, or what great things we have accomplished...ultimately, it's about who our hearts belong to. :heart:
A lot of things seem good in this post except this sentence "Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt."
ompletely erroneous, priests back in the time of the israelites paid for the nations sins by animal sacrifice, Jesus as the lamb of God just happens to be a better sacrifice and last eternally nothing more, nothing less. Also the biggest paradox for the christian is how can a perfect man die when his reward for being perfectly obedient was immortality or eternal life. I beleive Jesus died for our sins but it's still a paradox, not to mention if Jesus was in God nature on earth or at least kept some of it, not only can he not die(because God can't stop living otherwise he wouldn't be immortal), but his sacrifice wouldn't have been an equal ransom, Adam who sinned for mankind was a perfect man not perfect God and perfect man, or Very man/very God etc.
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Maybe there'll be a jihad here anyway but somehow, I doubt it.
Ah well. Might as well get back to being skeptical of the supernatural claims and pointing out problems then.
I beleive Jesus died for our sins but it's still a paradox, not to mention if Jesus was in God nature on earth or at least kept some of it, not only can he not die(because God can't stop living otherwise he wouldn't be immortal), but his sacrifice wouldn't have been an equal ransom, Adam who sinned for mankind was a perfect man not perfect God and perfect man, or Very man/very God etc.
Here's something that has been perplexing me- how does this qualify a legitimate sacrifice? Life was harsh and people were dying left and right. Sickness was rampant, the gov't was adamant and freedom was sparse and food was nothing like it is today. You'd be lucky if it didn't have sand in it. Obviously the myth is pretty horrid when he is killed, but seeing how he gets to sit up in heaven with his daddy and be powerful and tell him to spare mankind which is a simple point-and-click for an all-powerful god, I don't see what the big deal is. Metaphorically it's like ripping a bandaid off of your arm and getting a billion dollars for doing so and then everyone who witnessed you pulling it off praises you and exclaims "What a terrible sacrifice!"
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Ah well. Might as well get back to being skeptical of the supernatural claims and pointing out problems then.
Maybe a mini-jihad is brewing, hard to tell this soon.
I beleive Jesus died for our sins but it's still a paradox, not to mention if Jesus was in God nature on earth or at least kept some of it, not only can he not die(because God can't stop living otherwise he wouldn't be immortal), but his sacrifice wouldn't have been an equal ransom, Adam who sinned for mankind was a perfect man not perfect God and perfect man, or Very man/very God etc.
Here's something that has been perplexing me- how does this qualify a legitimate sacrifice? Life was harsh and people were dying left and right. Sickness was rampant, the gov't was adamant and freedom was sparse and food was nothing like it is today. You'd be lucky if it didn't have sand in it. Obviously the myth is pretty horrid when he is killed, but seeing how he gets to sit up in heaven with his daddy and be powerful and tell him to spare mankind which is a simple point-and-click for an all-powerful god, I don't see what the big deal is. Metaphorically it's like ripping a bandaid off of your arm and getting a billion dollars for doing so and then everyone who witnessed you pulling it off praises you and exclaims "What a terrible sacrifice!"
The entire concept of 'redemptive sacrifice' makes about as much 'sense' as tossing virgins into volcanos to curry favor. The non-cognitive leap involved, ('faith'), doesn't account for how the sacrificial process used to supposed to obtain the desired result. Even the roots of blood sacrifice rituals as 'gifts to the gods' don't really explain how such "gifts" would help, (beyond forlorn hope).
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The BIBLE is just another book at a book store
If that's what you believe,then why do so many Atheists get so worked up about it?I don't see their kind of reaction over War & Peace. ;D
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502mania: I believe one's eternal destiny, according to my interpretation of the Bible, hangs on whether or not you personally believe and acknowledge that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins. Everyone has sinned and noone is good enough to get to heaven on their own. (Romans 3:23) There is nothing we can do to earn our way to heaven (Titus 3:5). It's by grace that we are saved and not by works...otherwise grace would no longer be "grace". (Romans 11:6) Jesus was born to die for our sins so that we would not have to. Three days after His death, He rose from the grave (Romans 4:25), proving Himself victorious over death. He bridged the gap between God and man so that we may have a personal relationship with Him if we only believe. Most people believe in God, even Satan does. But to receive salvation, we must turn to God, form a personal relationship, turn away from our sins, and follow Him. We must trust in Jesus with everything we have and everything we do. "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:22). The Bible teaches that there is no other way to salvation than through Christ. Jesus says in John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus is the ONLY way of salvation because He is the only One who can pay our sin penalty (Romans 6:23). Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ! “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). IMO, there is a Day of Judgement coming for EVERYONE, God will judge every one at that time. He will know exactly what has been in each person's heart, He knows each person's every thought....He will know every action one ever made. He will know exactly how many times one heard "the message of Christ" and ignored it. He will also know those that never heard the message of Christ (and what happens there I'm not certain but I know He will be fair & just). He will know every motive, there will be no hiding anything from Him. I also kind of think satan will be there "reminding" God of every awful thing a person has done and he will be having a joyful time laying claim to the souls that belong to him. (In my opinion, Judgment Day will be a day when time is UP...GAME OVER and God & Satan will "divide up" what belongs to them. Those that aren't covered by the blood of Christ, those that never wanted to give God a second thought, those that were deceived by satan will now be officially "given" to satan (they now officially belong to satan, God is done wasting His time on them) and they all will be spending eternity in hell and as powerful as satan is...I think one can bet that he will "reign" there. ALL of his evil-ness (most of which the average human has been unaware of while their time on earth) will be "unleashed". He is the total opposite of God and as glorious as God is...I think will be as horrendous as a angry Satan would be. (I don't believe satan will be happy in hell, I think his wrath will be poured out for an eternity on all those who go there with him.) Those that had a personal relationship with Christ, those that are covered by His blood have been forgiven...they are the souls that Satan could NEVER have as they belong to God. He will take them and go on to reign with them in heaven. I don't believe there is anything on earth worth missing Heaven for. I think a person should live their life to make SURE they don't end up in hell someday because the path to heaven IS narrow and it is FEW that find it. (There is NOTHING in the Bible that says a child molester cannot be forgiven if they repent and change their ways. There is nothing in the Bible that says certain races, tribes or religious denominations will be excluded from heaven. I believe there will be a mix including some of every race, tribe and religious denomination both in heaven and in hell. I also think there will be a mix of people that accomplished great things during their time on earth in both heaven and hell.) It isn't about who or what we are, or what great things we have accomplished...ultimately, it's about who our hearts belong to. :heart:
A lot of things seem good in this post except this sentence "Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt."
ompletely erroneous, priests back in the time of the israelites paid for the nations sins by animal sacrifice, Jesus as the lamb of God just happens to be a better sacrifice and last eternally nothing more, nothing less. Also the biggest paradox for the christian is how can a perfect man die when his reward for being perfectly obedient was immortality or eternal life. I beleive Jesus died for our sins but it's still a paradox, not to mention if Jesus was in God nature on earth or at least kept some of it, not only can he not die(because God can't stop living otherwise he wouldn't be immortal), but his sacrifice wouldn't have been an equal ransom, Adam who sinned for mankind was a perfect man not perfect God and perfect man, or Very man/very God etc.
Animal sacrifices were a type of prophesy.A shadow of Christ's Sacrifice to come.They did nothing to actually forgive sins,but was done as an act of obedience.
Jesus is completely God in human form.He voluntarily veiled His Deity,but did not divest Himself of it.
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If that's what you believe,then why do so many Atheists get so worked up about it?I don't see their kind of reaction over War & Peace.
Because a primitive mythological book that has people believing in things like a talking snake shouldn't be promoted or have society by the *bleep*. We should not strive to be a theocracy. That's the basic reason.
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Animal sacrifices were a type of prophesy.A shadow of Christ's Sacrifice to come.They did nothing to actually forgive sins,but was done as an act of obedience.
"Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god", related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of an occultic standardized process or ritual such as animal sacrifice. It was an integral part of witchcraft and has been used in various forms for thousands of years before the advent of christianity."
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@JediJohnnie: Yes it was a foreshadowing but the High priest still paid or atoned for their sins
7 Then Moses said to Aaron: “Go near to the altar and render up your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement in your own behalf and in behalf of your house; and render up the offering of the people and make atonement in their behalf, just as Jehovah has commanded.”(Leviticus 9:7)
If you look up atonement in merriam-websters dictionary it's applied to Jesus, now of course Aaron(first high priest of Israelite nation) was not Jesus but he still atoned for the whole nation.
You say: "Jesus is completely God in human form.He voluntarily veiled His Deity,but did not divest Himself of it."
I say how can you keep something you just emptied?
5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.(Phillipians 2:5-7)
P.S. I am not saying Jesus doesn't have the same nature as God as my religion unforunately and erroneously teaches, i'm saying that when Jesus was on earth to pay for our sins and be an equal ransom he had to be fully man(perfect man) on Earth anything more and it wouldn't be an equal ransom.
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i'm saying that when Jesus was on earth to pay for our sins and be an equal ransom he had to be fully man(perfect man) on Earth anything more and it wouldn't be an equal ransom.
Since I'm not xtian, I hadn't previously considered the 'redemption' concept as a kidnaping/ransom/payoff idea before now. Interestingly, there are two ransom concepts to consider; the first is the ancient idea of ransoming 'royals' back in exchange for geld. The other ransoming occurs even now with kidnappers sometimes being paid off however, they usually aren't paid when the kidnap victim is killed, (sacrificed). It remains unclear how xtians expect to receive a 'pay-off' when the ransom victim was bumped off.
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i'm saying that when Jesus was on earth to pay for our sins and be an equal ransom he had to be fully man(perfect man) on Earth anything more and it wouldn't be an equal ransom.
Since I'm not xtian, I hadn't previously considered the 'redemption' concept as a kidnaping/ransom/payoff idea before now. Interestingly, there are two ransom concepts to consider; the first is the ancient idea of ransoming 'royals' back in exchange for geld. The other ransoming occurs even now with kidnappers sometimes being paid off however, they usually aren't paid when the kidnap victim is killed, (sacrificed). It remains unclear how xtians expect to receive a 'pay-off' when the ransom victim was bumped off.
Jesus proved that if one wanted to he can remain faithful till death, in other words it was proving satan a liar for our cause or trangressions that was the ransom.
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The BIBLE is just another book at a book store
If that's what you believe,then why do so many Atheists get so worked up about it?I don't see their kind of reaction over War & Peace. ;D
:thumbsup:
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i'm saying that when Jesus was on earth to pay for our sins and be an equal ransom he had to be fully man(perfect man) on Earth anything more and it wouldn't be an equal ransom.
Since I'm not xtian, I hadn't previously considered the 'redemption' concept as a kidnaping/ransom/payoff idea before now. Interestingly, there are two ransom concepts to consider; the first is the ancient idea of ransoming 'royals' back in exchange for geld. The other ransoming occurs even now with kidnappers sometimes being paid off however, they usually aren't paid when the kidnap victim is killed, (sacrificed). It remains unclear how xtians expect to receive a 'pay-off' when the ransom victim was bumped off.
Jesus proved that if one wanted to he can remain faithful till death, in other words it was proving satan a liar for our cause or trangressions that was the ransom.
I was about to ask if you could rephrase your response so that it made sense however, since it didn't address the central point of kidnapping and instead, went off into some faith-based rigamorole - nevermind.
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The BIBLE is just another book at a book store
If that's what you believe,then why do so many Atheists get so worked up about it?I don't see their kind of reaction over War & Peace. ;D
:thumbsup:
Hey Mackenzie! How you be sweetie? Happy Thanksgiving with many blessings!
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You can not get to heaven by good deeds alone. So yes even if you did all those great things like cure cancer but did not accept Jesus as your Lord and saviour you would not go to heaven.
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If that's what you believe,then why do so many Atheists get so worked up about it?I don't see their kind of reaction over War & Peace.
Because a primitive mythological book that has people believing in things like a talking snake shouldn't be promoted or have society by the *bleep*. We should not strive to be a theocracy. That's the basic reason.
Your problem stems from failing to correctly interpret the Bible.
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@JediJohnnie: Yes it was a foreshadowing but the High priest still paid or atoned for their sins
7 Then Moses said to Aaron: “Go near to the altar and render up your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement in your own behalf and in behalf of your house; and render up the offering of the people and make atonement in their behalf, just as Jehovah has commanded.”(Leviticus 9:7)
If you look up atonement in merriam-websters dictionary it's applied to Jesus, now of course Aaron(first high priest of Israelite nation) was not Jesus but he still atoned for the whole nation.
You say: "Jesus is completely God in human form.He voluntarily veiled His Deity,but did not divest Himself of it."
I say how can you keep something you just emptied?
5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.(Phillipians 2:5-7)
P.S. I am not saying Jesus doesn't have the same nature as God as my religion unforunately and erroneously teaches, i'm saying that when Jesus was on earth to pay for our sins and be an equal ransom he had to be fully man(perfect man) on Earth anything more and it wouldn't be an equal ransom.
The term you're using (emptied) is not in the handful of biblical translations I have.I'm guessing it's a JW bible you're quoting.
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Animal sacrifices were a type of prophesy.A shadow of Christ's Sacrifice to come.They did nothing to actually forgive sins,but was done as an act of obedience.
"Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god", related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of an occultic standardized process or ritual such as animal sacrifice. It was an integral part of witchcraft and has been used in various forms for thousands of years before the advent of christianity."
Christians didn't sacrifice.It was the Jews that did Animal Sacrifices in accordance with God's Law.You fail to grasp the concept that "because somebody else did it too for a different reason" means nothing.
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Your problem stems from failing to correctly interpret the Bible.
I'm talking about reality. Not how you think your mythological texts should be interpreted.
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Christians didn't sacrifice.
No? I suppose I could link references however, a recent one indicates that the 'Roman catholic church representative, (Archbishop George Daniel, head of the Pretoria archdiocese for the past 25 years), stated that animal sacrifice is not sacrilegious, it is just another facet of the "incultration process." This process takes place when the Roman Church and Catholics in a given country try to find a suitable accommodation between church requirements and traditional practices of the native culture. Traditional Christianity has never rejected the animal sacrifice that is part of its biblical heritage.'
'Although prophets like Isaiah, Amos, Hosea, and Jeremiah denounced animal sacrifices as abominations, those condemnations did not have an affect on either orthodox Jewish or traditional Christian attitudes. Christianity validated sacrificial religion in retrospect, saying that because Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial victim, killing animals on the altars of God was no longer "necessary." ' --wwwDotallcreatures.org/hr/hrasacrificeinchurch.htm
It was the Jews that did Animal Sacrifices in accordance with God's Law.
It wasn't only the jews and it wasn't only according to one "god's law". Animal sacrifices by other cultures and for other purposes had been going on for centuries before there were xtians or jews around.
You fail to grasp the concept that "because somebody else did it too for a different reason" means nothing.
Conversely, you've demonstrated an abject failure to grasp the concept of "incultration"; a process whereby xtian missionaries absorb native pagan practices and alter them on the altar of cultural theft. The concept of someone else doing it first means nothing to xtian cultural thieves.
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Quote from: JediJohnnie:
Your problem stems from failing to correctly interpret the Bible.
I'm talking about reality. Not how you think your mythological texts should be interpreted.
Based entirely upon prior baseless opinion put forth by the pseudo-jedi, a reasonable extrapolation would be his continued failure to discern the difference you emphasized.
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The reason so many Christians think only those who accept Christ will go to Biblical Heaven is because that is what the Bible clearly states. Satan is known as the great deceiver, and he doesn't need anyone's permission to deceive them. I think Satan will have MANY believing that as long as they are "just good people, living a good life" that they will go to Heaven---and he will be laughing at them later because they bought that lie. The Bible clearly states only those that accept Jesus into their hearts and have their sins forgiven will be saved. (The longer one is saved, the more that God will expect from them because Christianity is more than "lip-service".) For God to let anyone else into Heaven for any other reason would be to make Jesus a liar...and that isn't going to happen. Choose whom you're going to serve wisely...you WILL be spending eternity with them.
I don't believe just because you don't believe in God you wont go to heaven. You can still except Jesus and ask for your sins to be forgiven after death. Living a good live by curing cancer, taking care of those less fortunate, carring for the elderly, or being an overly good person I think God will notice. Remeber the bible was written many years ago my power hungry men who used it to better themselves and control others. Look at how horrible women and others have been treated in the name of God by what the bible says. I'm a christian, I believe in God and Jesus.
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Based entirely upon prior baseless opinion put forth by the pseudo-jedi, a reasonable extrapolation would be his continued failure to discern the difference you emphasized.
*sigh* True. There is no try.
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Based entirely upon prior baseless opinion put forth by the pseudo-jedi, a reasonable extrapolation would be his continued failure to discern the difference you emphasized.
*sigh* True. There is no try.
Since the 'force', (of reasoning), is weak in that one, there can be no 'do'.
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@JediJohnnie: Yes it was a foreshadowing but the High priest still paid or atoned for their sins
7 Then Moses said to Aaron: “Go near to the altar and render up your sin offering and your burnt offering, and make atonement in your own behalf and in behalf of your house; and render up the offering of the people and make atonement in their behalf, just as Jehovah has commanded.”(Leviticus 9:7)
If you look up atonement in merriam-websters dictionary it's applied to Jesus, now of course Aaron(first high priest of Israelite nation) was not Jesus but he still atoned for the whole nation.
You say: "Jesus is completely God in human form.He voluntarily veiled His Deity,but did not divest Himself of it."
I say how can you keep something you just emptied?
5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.(Phillipians 2:5-7)
P.S. I am not saying Jesus doesn't have the same nature as God as my religion unforunately and erroneously teaches, i'm saying that when Jesus was on earth to pay for our sins and be an equal ransom he had to be fully man(perfect man) on Earth anything more and it wouldn't be an equal ransom.
The term you're using (emptied) is not in the handful of biblical translations I have.I'm guessing it's a JW bible you're quoting.
From biblos.com we have out of 19 translations...
Gave up his divine privileges(1)
made himself nothing(4)
made himself of no reputation(4)
and last but not least empty himself(9)!!
direct link http://bible.cc/philippians/2-7.htm
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According to what I believe about the bible, Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Having said that, it's not up to me to condemn you to heaven or hell. All I can do is worry about my own salvation and pray for the salvation of others.
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According to what I believe about the bible, Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
What about other beliefs that have just as much merit as your own?
Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Having said that, it's not up to me to condemn you to heaven or hell.
That's kind of pompous. "This is the only way to bake a cake! Having said that, it's not up to me to tell you you're doing it wrong if you're not doing it my way!"
All I can do is worry about my own salvation and pray for the salvation of others.
How does praying work if god has a divine plan? Is he going to change his divine plan because you prayed for it?