Need a quick God related question answered

[liljp617]

the answers were given but skeptics refuse to perceive God as the all powerful being that he is.

Not really.  The issue here, as with most theology, is you start with an untenable position, then spend century upon century trying to worm your way out of the paradoxes instead of just wiping the slate clean and accepting that the original meaning of "omnipotence" was unsupportable to begin with.

when you understand that he didn't have to do PHYSICAL labor to CREATE the boulder all he did was SPEAK it into existence because he is GOD and he can do that

How the stone is created is irrelevant.

how could he make something he can't even lift? NOTHING is impossible for God.

err that's why it's labeled a paradox "/  Because it doesn't make logical sense no matter how you spin it.  The fact is the concept of omnipotence is logically flawed, which is what the paradox points out.  Generations of theologians and apologists then spend their time trying to squirm their way around the simple paradox, rather than come clean and say - neh, if there is a God it is not omnipotent, sorry, we made an error.

now if you are waiting for a scientific answer there is none....God is supernatural not natural. He has left evidence to his power and existence in his creation but he will never be completely provable because of his invisible nature. that's why it requires faith to believe in him.

I need no scientific answer -- the question has a pretty straightforward answer with just a little rational thought concerning the definition and position as a whole.

however it requires MORE faith to believe that our entire universe is entirely random and that evolution is responsible for everything. it's completely ridiculous and sig sounds like an angry person who just wants to antagonize people. if you really wanted answers you got them. it's up to you what to do with the information.

This is a red herring.  Irrelevant to anything I said.

and praying is not passive aggressive. it is the single most powerful thing people can do for each other.

This has nothing to do with my post  

[amyrouse]

I got an answer for ya...

Yes.  But he won't.  Free will, baby.  G-d's got it, too.

Is that suitable?  LOL

[FuzzyCottonsocks]

It would be like asking God to be mean and hateful and pure evil and uncreate Heaven and Uncreate himself and rape little children and if he couldn't do that then he is not God...Come on Now!

What the what?

[sigmapi1501]

So the answer is.....??

mm. Seems the answer to my question is "HOW DARE YOU ASK THIS QUESTION"

Still waiting for one post from any Christian person (one that believes a man really rose from the dead some 200 years ago) to post anything. ANYTHING. That doesn't make them look like a complete crazy person. 

I asked a simple question. I assumed they taught you something intelligent to say when this is brought up in bible school or something. I was merely curious.

[liljp617]

So the answer is.....??

mm. Seems the answer to my question is "HOW DARE YOU ASK THIS QUESTION"

Still waiting for one post from any Christian person (one that believes a man really rose from the dead some 200 years ago) to post anything. ANYTHING. That doesn't make them look like a complete crazy person. 

I asked a simple question. I assumed they taught you something intelligent to say when this is brought up in bible school or something. I was merely curious.

There is no logical answer, because the question is founded on nothing logical.  The only solution available is to throw your hands up and accept the absurdity. Let omnipotent mean what it means: "omni-", totally; "-potent", powerful - and answer "yes" to any question that starts with "can God...," even if that question is beyond absurd: "Can God create a square circle?" "Yes." It's the only way to avoid the paradoxes - because paradoxes only apply when there are logical constraints, and there is simply no way to make God work within logical constraints. Thousands upon thousands of years of trying (with various gods), and it hasn't been done yet.

I don't know why this is so difficult for people to do, but it is.  After all, we're talking about a being of enormous power that is apparently unbound by the laws of causality, and that either emerged fully formed out of nothing or has "always existed". Absurdity seems almost par for the course.

[shernajwine]

liljp, i was addressing more that just your post...and how God created the boulder is completely relevant because it demonstrates his supernatural power. can you say "let there be a boulder" and a boulder appears? NO because you are a physical being, God isn't and the fact that he can speak things into existence shows that the question becomes irrelevant. God is all powerful, plain and simple. if he can create things by speaking why would he need to life a boulder with physical strength? He wouldn't. The question is straight forward and so is the answer but if it makes you feel more intelligent to say  since God is all-powerful He can be not all-powerful....go ahead. but for the rest of us who are free thinkers we will accept the logical answer of an all powerful God who isn't limited by the laws HE created.

[shernajwine]

The solution to this question lies in the fact that the question itself is logically flawed.  It is actually asking multiple questions at once.  And the overarching question itself is logically incoherent.

Part of the problem is that the question is actually trying to answer more than one question at once:
1) Is there any limit to the size of stone God could create?
2) Is there any limit to the size of stone God could lift?

The answer to BOTH questions is "No!"

God can create any size stone. Imagine a stone as big as you like, and God can create one bigger.

God cana lift any size stone. Imagine a stone as big as you like, and God can lift it.

So, when we parse out those two parts to the question, the answers are quite simple to come by. Thus, the answer to the question is simply, "No." God cannot create a stone to big for Him to lift, because He can lift any size stone.

But this does not mean there is a limit in the size stone God can create. It is not as if the answer of "no" to this question means that God can only create a stone yay big, and no bigger. Rather, His omnipotence is equally ultimate in both areas. He is all-powerful in stone creating ability, and He is all-powerful in stone lifting ability. This fact actually *supports* the fact of His omnipotence, rather than detracting from it.

But, then, why is the original question itself such a doozy? It is so problematic because it not only asks two questions at once, but it also simultaneously includes its own incoherence and inconsistency. This fact becomes clearer if we rephrase the question in more general terms. After all, we are not worried about the specifics of giant stones, but about God's power itself, as demonstrated in the creation and lifting of them. So let's rephrase the Omnipotence Paradox thus:


Can an all-powerful being demonstrate such great power that he renders himself powerless?


As you can see, I have substituted "all-powerful" as a synonym for "omnipotent", "great power" for the creation of a big stone, and "powerless" for the inability to lift the big stone.

Once we rephrase the paradox as you see above, I hope you can see why the question itself is hopelessly flawed, and internally incoherent. It is like saying, "Can a number get so close to infinity that it becomes zero?" It is like saying, "Is it possible to get so smart that you become even smarter than yourself?" At the end of the day, the question is asking whether God can be more omnipotent than himself.  But the phrase "more omnipotent" is self-contradictory.  It is simply nonsense.

Thus, trying to answer the question is so baffling, because the question itself is incoherent and flawed, not because there is anything illogical about God's existence.

http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/omnipotenceparadox1.htm

[sigmapi1501]

Really?  REALLY?

[shernajwine]

yes, really. now what is your counter argument?

[sigmapi1501]

My counter argument is that you are utterly insane.

[liljp617]

and how God created the boulder is completely relevant because it demonstrates his supernatural power.

It's not relevant at all, because that isn't the question.  The question is can God do it or not -- that is the extent of the question.  God could sit there and carve the stone into a special shape for 3 million years, go to a nice eternal quarry and pick whatever stone God wanted, take trillions of tiny pebbles and glue them together to form a stone, "breathe it into existence," etc. etc.  It makes no difference how God makes the stone come into existence.  The question does not entail that the stone be brought into existence in any particular fashion, so long as it is brought into existence by God.

can you say "let there be a boulder" and a boulder appears? NO because you are a physical being, God isn't and the fact that he can speak things into existence shows that the question becomes irrelevant.

What I can or can't do has nothing to do with the question.

The question isn't irrelevant; the paradox serves the purpose it was meant to serve.  I don't see why you would attempt to answer it rationally if you thought the whole question was irrelevant.  If the whole discussion is irrelevant, just say that to begin with.  Instead, you've taken multiple attempts at trying to rationalize irrationality.

God is all powerful, plain and simple.

That position brings forth paradoxes of this sort.

if he can create things by speaking why would he need to life a boulder with physical strength? He wouldn't.

It doesn't matter why.  The question doesn't require an answer for why God would or would not do said act.  The paradox is being taken too literal -- the paradox was created merely to make the point that the concept of omnipotence is logically flawed.

The question is straight forward and so is the answer but if it makes you feel more intelligent to say  since God is all-powerful He can be not all-powerful....go ahead. but for the rest of us who are free thinkers we will accept the logical answer of an all powerful God who isn't limited by the laws HE created.

This isn't about my intelligence.  I certainly wouldn't be on these forums if I was trying to boost my intelligence.

Thousands of theologians and religious apologetics have spent centuries trying to wiggle out of the many paradoxes that arise from an omnipotent, omniscient being (and the numerous other paradoxes throughout theology).  It's nothing new and they've yet to succeed, because the only logically sound answer is that the concept of omnipotence is flawed to begin with and has been since its inception around the 14th century or so.  Of course, they can't accept that, because it means they would have to admit an error in their proposals, and we know that's a big "no-no" in that field.

You're no more of a "free thinker" than anyone else.  You stick straight to your guns at every turn on these forums, that much is obvious.  It's not really a big deal to stick with your views...so long as you don't put on airs about being more open minded than others.  Then it becomes arrogance, on the brink of hypocrisy.

[Falconer02]

  It's not really a big deal to stick with your views...so long as you don't put on airs about being more open minded than others.  Then it becomes arrogance, on the brink of hypocrisy.

*sniff* *sniff* Do I smell....Christianity? Why yes!

[shernajwine]

My counter argument is that you are utterly insane.

LOL! Well, how can I argue with that. You have brought some very insightful and intelligent information from the anti God camp....Let's take a look,

blah. Next.

If I knew I wouldn't ask.  Basically I just wanna see the non-sense that will be spewed in this thread. So far it has not disappointed.

Hey cat lady. I'm obviously NOT Christian. I'm actually going to heaven.
I asked for the Christian response.  What kind of stupid logic is your comment?  "If you were Christian you would know" really? No crap.

And I'd LOVE to see one.   ONE. Just ONE. Please. Please. Some God fearing Christian person post ONE thing that isn't the dumbest thing I have ever heard.   ONCE.  Do it ONCE.

Quoting the Bible doesn't count because the book was written by flawed men.  It is NOT the word of God.  And don't any one of you arrogant mother f*&$ers dare tell me "I'll pray for you"  because that is just passive-aggressive BS at it's best.

And to rip off my favorite comic, I am so confident that No God exist... if he DOES, then may he strike... everyone reading this post dead right now.

Good night. Top that Jesus.

So the answer is.....Huh???

mm. Seems the answer to my question is "HOW DARE YOU ASK THIS QUESTION"

Still waiting for one post from any Christian person (one that believes a man really rose from the dead some 200 years ago) to post anything. ANYTHING. That doesn't make them look like a complete crazy person.

I asked a simple question. I assumed they taught you something intelligent to say when this is brought up in bible school or something. I was merely curious.

So your question was obviously posed so that you could laugh at religious answers...and so far you have called christians the following (in this thread alone)

• they spew nonsense
• have stupid logic
• post dumb things
• have the audacity to pray for people
• crazy
• utterly insane

Well, you have certainly proven us wrong sig! Your logical arguments with sound reasoning and intelligent eloquence can leave no room for doubt.  

Still waiting for one post from any Christian person...  to post anything. ANYTHING. That doesn't make them look like a complete crazy person.

We are still waiting on one post from you, ANYTHING, that brings something to the table to back up what you believe. Insulting people whose beliefs are different doesn't prove you are right, it only serves to make you look ignorant. And I'm sorry to disappoint you but an ignorant person calling me insane just makes me look better.    

[shernajwine]

The question is can God do it or not -- that is the extent of the question

I found an article that I posted prior to this post of yours and I think it deals with the "extent" of the question quite well. I know you have an aversion to replying to copied articles but it's there none the less. And it helped me understand better myself.

Apparently our ideas of what is relevant are different. To me, the very ability to create something supernatural is the answer to how something could be LIFTED supernaturally. It's a contradiction to say that God can make himself so powerful that he is powerless? Creation of the boulder is relevant because the question says 'can God CREATE a boulder so heavy....' .he can create ANY size boulder, so logically he could lift it by the same supernatural power he created it with.

There quite frankly is no paradox but people create them and try to make them sound reasonable and intelligent but then refuse to let a simple and logical answer explain it.

[Falconer02]

We are still waiting on one post from you, ANYTHING, that brings something to the table to back up what you believe.

May I remind you that the burden of proof is on you. Not him.