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Discussion Boards => Off-Topic => Debate & Discuss => Topic started by: queenofnines on July 24, 2010, 03:19:41 pm
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Excerpted from:
Why the Christian God is Impossible
by Chad Docterman
"Defining YHWH
Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.
God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.
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Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection
What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
Perfection Begets Imperfection
But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.
What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
The Freewill Argument
The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.
Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.
Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans [and 1/3 of the supposed angels] do differently?
The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering
God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.
Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins
God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.
Belief More Important Than Action
...Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.
Perfection's Imperfect Revelation
The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.
No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us [in an obvious, no-nonsense, clear-as-day manner], rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.
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The Omniscient Changes the Future
A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.
The Omniscient is Surprised
A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.
We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible."
You can read the full article here: http://www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm
THIS THREAD IS DEDICATED TO THE DISCUSSION OF THE LOGICAL ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE EXISTENCE OF PERSONAL GODS (like I posted above).
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Here's another good one:
Drange's argument from nonbelief
If God exists, God:
1) wants all humans to believe God exists before they die;
2) can bring about a situation in which all humans believe God exists before they die;
3) does not want anything that would conflict with and be at least as important as its desire for all humans to believe God exists before they die; and
4) always acts in accordance with what it most wants.
5) If God exists, all humans would believe so before they die (from 1).
6) But not all humans believe God exists before they die.
7) Therefore, God does not exist (from 2 and 3).
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_nonbelief
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This was a good read. I really feel like putting on my christian costume and attacking all of these with christian logic.
It really gets old after awhile!
Shut up, troll.
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Yall should read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins or watch the documentary on youtube: Search ' The God Delusion (1/5) - Richard Dawkins '
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Why Believers Stay Believers:
1) They don't ever realize the logical arguments against the existence of god
2) They don't understand the logical arguments against the existence of god
3) They sort of understand the arguments, but they're too invested in the BENEFITS of believing there's a god (i.e. heaven)
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3) They sort of understand the arguments, but they're too invested in the BENEFITS of believing there's a god (i.e. heaven)
I'd say this above all else.
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3) They sort of understand the arguments, but they're too invested in the BENEFITS of believing there's a god (i.e. heaven)
I'd say this above all else.
Yeah, me too! Nice new avatar, btw. :thumbsup:
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More like it is impossible to tell whether God exists or not
God in general? Yes.
Christian god? Muslim god? Hindu gods? Quite easy to tell they're all :bs:
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Defining Factors of a Cult -- Does Christianity fit the bill?
1) People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations CHECK (Christianity tells you that you're sinful and will burn in hell if you don't devote your life to Jesus)
2) Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized CHECK (Original Sin ring a bell?)
3) They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group CHECK (Jesus, their pastor, their fellow Christians)
4) They get a new identity based on the group CHECK ("Born again", "saved", "new life in Jesus")
5) They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled CHECK (Christians reject real science and civil rights and stick to the Bible)
CULT SCORE: 5/5
(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult)
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More like it is impossible to tell whether God exists or not
God in general? Yes.
Christian god? Muslim god? Hindu gods? Quite easy to tell they're all :bs:
All that matters though is that there is a God... whoever or whatever he may be...I speak of God in general when I speak of God.
Heh, you must really not see how you contradict yourself left and right. YOU just quoted yourself saying "it is impossible to tell", and then you have the audacity to write "there is a god". ???
Once again, the vast majority of people believe in a PERSONAL god, so your statement of god in general is irrelevant. "God in general" doesn't have a holy book that says who deserves to die over what; "god in general" has no explicit rules on what the point to life is.
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Hey guys. Last I checked, this was still AMERICA!.....
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The idea of a god or gods isn't based on logic to begin with. It's part of the human need to believe that life goes on after death and to explain what we don't understand. Now science has come into the picture and we know more, but we still don't have all the answers. As long as some pieces of the puzzle are missing, people will continue to believe in the divine.
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The idea of a god or gods isn't based on logic to begin with. It's part of the human need to believe that life goes on after death and to explain what we don't understand. Now science has come into the picture and we know more, but we still don't have all the answers. As long as some pieces of the puzzle are missing, people will continue to believe in the divine.
It's BECAUSE belief in gods is not based on logic that it loses its credibility. Pretty much everything else in life we depend on logic for; religion should not get a free pass. I agree it is part of the human condition to fear death, because unlike other animals, we've evolved to be CONSCIOUS of the fact that we're going to die. Naturally, this leads many to think what's the point to life, then, if it's just 70 years and then you're dead forever? And so we rely on fantasy to cope with this reality.
Also, long before we knew how things like lightning worked, we invented gods to explain it. But I'd say it's mostly being unable to accept death, and even when we one day have almost all of the pieces to where we came from figured out, some people are still going to believe out of fear.
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You can talk until your face turns blue, people are going to do what they want!
Some people, yes. Others (like me) were able to give up their god delusion after realizing the things that other atheists have put out there. So don't discourage my efforts. The more people I can get to live in reality, the better.
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Queenofnines makes a very well thought out and presented argument. I do agree that it is very unlikely that one would convince a Christian that God does not exist as they tend to be very close minded.
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The idea of a god or gods isn't based on logic to begin with. It's part of the human need to believe that life goes on after death and to explain what we don't understand. Now science has come into the picture and we know more, but we still don't have all the answers. As long as some pieces of the puzzle are missing, people will continue to believe in the divine.
It's BECAUSE belief in gods is not based on logic that it loses its credibility. Pretty much everything else in life we depend on logic for; religion should not get a free pass. I agree it is part of the human condition to fear death, because unlike other animals, we've evolved to be CONSCIOUS of the fact that we're going to die. Naturally, this leads many to think what's the point to life, then, if it's just 70 years and then you're dead forever? And so we rely on fantasy to cope with this reality.
Also, long before we knew how things like lightning worked, we invented gods to explain it. But I'd say it's mostly being unable to accept death, and even when we one day have almost all of the pieces to where we came from figured out, some people are still going to believe out of fear.
I'm not saying religion should get a free pass. I'm saying the people who believe are not going to be easily convinced by logical arguments. They're worshiping an entity that they have never seen or heard for themselves. Religion and logic are opposites most days. That's my only point.
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Fuzzy, you're totally right. And so is Queen. You obviously have good and worthy viewpoints. I think what this boils down personally to is not what religion does for comfort, but what it does as a whole. What it does on the exterior that none of the worshippers acknowledge.
I have no problems with someone being spiritual as long as it does not effect my path. But when religious zealots are in our political offices and use it as a re-election card, I am greatly offended. When religions march with the pompous attitude that they're 100% correct although there's ridiculously obvious flaws, I get offended. When they promote hatred, I get offended. When religions preach to convert everyone that does not believe their fantasy character or they'll burn for eternity, I get offended. They may see it as spreading love and think they're rescuing people, but what they don't realize is they're doing nothing more than promoting a superstitious curse. And that is very sad advertising campaign.
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Well to me God exists because how else would we be here. Someone or something had to have created us. A supernatural being. I might be wrong on this but you know when astronauts go in outerspace they can't go near a black hole because they will get sucked in and never come out. My idea is that heaven exists in that black hole. I mean that's just my idea and it may sound crazy. I really don't believe that evolution that scientists like to feed into our brains because had we evolved from monkeys and apes or whatever primate there wouldn't be any of those animals left in the world. Can you tell me when you have seen a monkey turn into a human? I would really like to see that. Only in movies you know. But everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I just had to express mine. Have a great day everyone.
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Did anyone hear about President Obama covering up in God We Trust on the wall behind him in the Oval Office? That to me is messed up and not a good sign!
Where is proof of this or is it just another rumor going around the religious camps again? I could not care less if he did, but I can find nothing about this anywhere, so I have to think it is just another, "Ooooh, let's get all the Christians going with THIS one!"
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you must really believe in God my mother always say that you have to prey and believe :angel12:
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Fuzzy, you're totally right. And so is Queen. You obviously have good and worthy viewpoints. I think what this boils down personally to is not what religion does for comfort, but what it does as a whole. What it does on the exterior that none of the worshippers acknowledge.
I have no problems with someone being spiritual as long as it does not effect my path. But when religious zealots are in our political offices and use it as a re-election card, I am greatly offended. When religions march with the pompous attitude that they're 100% correct although there's ridiculously obvious flaws, I get offended. When they promote hatred, I get offended. When religions preach to convert everyone that does not believe their fantasy character or they'll burn for eternity, I get offended. They may see it as spreading love and think they're rescuing people, but what they don't realize is they're doing nothing more than promoting a superstitious curse. And that is very sad advertising campaign.
I'm with you on all points, but organized religion doesn't work for me and never will. The Crusades still makes me angry and I wasn't even around for that mess.
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when astronauts go in outerspace they can't go near a black hole because they will get sucked in and never come out.
That.... OR That it would take over a thousand years traveling at the speed of light (which is currently impossible because it takes infinite energy to do so) to reach the nearest black hole.
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you must really believe in God my mother always say that you have to prey and believe :angel12:
I'm sure it was an innocent typo, but did anyone pick up on this:"PREY[sic] and believe"? Interesting - I could go somewhere with that one. ;)
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Well to me God exists because how else would we be here. Someone or something had to have created us. A supernatural being. I might be wrong on this but you know when astronauts go in outerspace they can't go near a black hole because they will get sucked in and never come out. My idea is that heaven exists in that black hole. I mean that's just my idea and it may sound crazy. I really don't believe that evolution that scientists like to feed into our brains because had we evolved from monkeys and apes or whatever primate there wouldn't be any of those animals left in the world. Can you tell me when you have seen a monkey turn into a human? I would really like to see that. Only in movies you know. But everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I just had to express mine. Have a great day everyone.
People who write stuff like this should not be allowed to post in religious debates.
YOU JUST LOOK SILLY.
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Well to me God exists because how else would we be here. Someone or something had to have created us. A supernatural being. I might be wrong on this but you know when astronauts go in outerspace they can't go near a black hole because they will get sucked in and never come out. My idea is that heaven exists in that black hole. I mean that's just my idea and it may sound crazy. I really don't believe that evolution that scientists like to feed into our brains because had we evolved from monkeys and apes or whatever primate there wouldn't be any of those animals left in the world. Can you tell me when you have seen a monkey turn into a human? I would really like to see that. Only in movies you know. But everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I just had to express mine. Have a great day everyone.
People who write stuff like this should not be allowed to post in religious debates.
YOU JUST LOOK SILLY.
i agree with you this is just a no no evolution is the answer god can be an explanation for certain things but not this.
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People who write stuff like this should not be allowed to post in religious debates.
YOU JUST LOOK SILLY
Agreed. It should be called the 1st-grade "god-did-it!" answer.
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Some people, yes. Others (like me) were able to give up their god delusion after realizing the things that other atheists have put out there. So don't discourage my efforts. The more people I can get to live in reality, the better.
In all honesty if you see a person walking down the road talking to themselves..... You automatically think crazy!! But why is it when people pray in front of others to themselves, its not crazy?
Why is god selfish???? As said in the bible, put NO other gods before me.. Hmm didn't know there was other gods!!
I am not afriad to die as someone posted earlier we need to bealive to get into heaven,,, no when I die I know I will be dead, as with any living organism there is no after life, no pearly gates! I think with my brain not what cult religions have set forth. And for that matter why was the bible changed so much?? If your a big history buff like my husband & I the bible is sick and twisted. If you have ever read or heard passages from the very first MAN made book.
Just a little food for thought on this one!!
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Don't get me wrong I do not care what others believe in. I just hate small minded people who try and try to prove something they cannot and get pissy when we do not see anything rational that they are saying.
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And for that matter why was the bible changed so much??
And why does it take a theologian and a billion-plus translations to understand it?? Good points, Amy! ;D
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Some people, yes. Others (like me) were able to give up their god delusion after realizing the things that other atheists have put out there. So don't discourage my efforts. The more people I can get to live in reality, the better.
In all honesty if you see a person walking down the road talking to themselves..... You automatically think crazy!! But why is it when people pray in front of others to themselves, its not crazy?
Why is god selfish???? As said in the bible, put NO other gods before me.. Hmm didn't know there was other gods!!
I am not afriad to die as someone posted earlier we need to bealive to get into heaven,,, no when I die I know I will be dead, as with any living organism there is no after life, no pearly gates! I think with my brain not what cult religions have set forth. And for that matter why was the bible changed so much?? If your a big history buff like my husband & I the bible is sick and twisted. If you have ever read or heard passages from the very first MAN made book.
Just a little food for thought on this one!!
Because people praying are not talking to themselves. There are no other God's but people can make them up. You can't even spell believe...should I listen to any knowledge you may think you have? Oh and it is you're (you are)
The only reason you bash on my spelling is because I make you think!! No other reason at all.
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The only reason you bash on my spelling is because I make you think!! No other reason at all.
Amy....don't startle the internet troll...you'll get no where...just ignore her.
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The only reason you bash on my spelling is because I make you think!! No other reason at all.
Amy....don't startle the internet troll...you'll get no where...just ignore her.
LOL I know,, I have a spelling problem O well I can fix that,, but what the world doesn't understand you cannot fix stupid!!!
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The only reason you bash on my spelling is because I make you think!! No other reason at all.
Amy....don't startle the internet troll...you'll get no where...just ignore her.
LOL I know,, I have a spelling problem O well I can fix that,, but what the world doesn't understand you cannot fix stupid!!!
If you ever met me in person...I would put you to shame.
How my dear??
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And that would put me to shame how exactly??
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And that would put me to shame how exactly??
Maybe it wouldn't...you are just a bad person, with no conscience.
Hmmm and coming from you this has no impact on me what so ever!!!