I don't believe in the Devil or Hell

[marieelissa]

If he does not, he is imperfect. If you know bad things are going to happen and you could stop it easily, but instead you choose to ignore your foresight, you're either extremely evil or mentally incapable of reasoning. Either way, christians are playing for a dealer with a stacked deck.

Free will, people can make choices without Gods help. It is there in order to live a life.

[travislang]

I am so sorry to hear that, then what so you beleive?  Do you beleive in Heaven and earth?

thanks but dont have to be sorry.   i am pagan following the celtic and wiccan paths....i believe in the earth only, but there are other worlds parrellel universes, known as magical worlds where we go to perform magick, and where we go after death to await till we ready to be reincarnated to try life again

[Falconer02]

Free will, people can make choices without Gods help. It is there in order to live a life

I don't think you understand the example I made. Christian god = all-knowing = knows what's going to happen past/present/future = no free will = he created evil = jerk

[jcribb16]

Or:  Christian God = All-Knowing = knows what's going to happen past/present/future = allows free will = Christian believer = Eternal Life in Heaven. 
Or:  Christian God = All-Knowing = knows what's going to happen past/present/future = allows free will = non-believer = Eternal Punishment

That equation idea was great, Falconer!!! 

[Falconer02]

That equation idea was great, Falconer!!!  

I give you an F since you don't understand the problem   .  Here's your fault- you highlighted 'allows' when the word before that one destroys the idea of allowing things via free will. And eternal punishment for noticing massive problems? Harsh! I'll write that off as a religious defense mechanism-- a very fearful consequence of a belief. Remember that non-believers do not fear myths about eternal torment. As I've demonstrated in the past, it's just an ancient way of saying "screw you".

[walksalone11]

The challenge still stands.  One on one...you and me.  No religion, no evolution, nothing.  You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me.  Here's your chance.  Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.

lol  Okay, place your bets everyone!  Schoolyard fight at 3!  Haha...  I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class.  Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...).  

LMAO what did I miss?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZakwDX23Jo&feature=email

[marieelissa]

The challenge still stands.  One on one...you and me.  No religion, no evolution, nothing.  You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me.  Here's your chance.  Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.

lol  Okay, place your bets everyone!  Schoolyard fight at 3!  Haha...  I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class.  Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...).  

LMAO what did I miss?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZakwDX23Jo&feature=email

lol walks

[amyrouse]

The challenge still stands.  One on one...you and me.  No religion, no evolution, nothing.  You have "slammed" me to others without really addressing me.  Here's your chance.  Let's get this taken care of once and for all. I'd like to ask that everybody else let us do this one on one.

lol  Okay, place your bets everyone!  Schoolyard fight at 3!  Haha...  I have no idea what you're talking about, but all of this sure does sound like you want to have a fist fight in front of the other kids after class.  Hypothetically speaking of course, you would not fair so well here (brawn or...).  

LMAO what did I miss?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZakwDX23Jo&feature=email

That is my ringtone.  I have to put my phone on silent at work.

[teflonfanatic]

That equation idea was great, Falconer!!!  

I give you an F since you don't understand the problem   .  Here's your fault- you highlighted 'allows' when the word before that one destroys the idea of allowing things via free will. And eternal punishment for noticing massive problems? Harsh! I'll write that off as a religious defense mechanism-- a very fearful consequence of a belief. Remember that non-believers do not fear myths about eternal torment. As I've demonstrated in the past, it's just an ancient way of saying "screw you".

Hey Falconor called me an atheist indirectly "Remember that non-believers do not fear myths about eternal torment".

On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.

As for eternal torment the Churchgoer evidently can't answer Acts 24:15 and the resurrection of Lazarus, these two posts alone destroys eternal torment. On top of that the penalty for eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden was DEATH not eternal Torture(when's the last time someone felt pain while they were dead?)
Is God lying? Also Falconor's God is the source of life argument for this doctrine was great as well, might be some hope left for this guy  :

[marieelissa]

God does not put anyone in Hell- His desire is that all follow Him

Actually he does

[marieelissa]

To create the devil no, to create hell umm NO. To create spirit beings with free will who choose to rebel yes, did man make a way to preserve bodies for the dead maybe.

To reiterate another thread I posted on- your god does not grant free will. It's an illusion that gets taken down by a basic argument. If he is all-powerful and all-knowing, then ultimately all christians are fatalists-- everything is predestined due to this god. Since he is all-knowing (past, present, future), he has predetermined every action we take. That kills the idea of having free will since he knows what's going to happen and who's going to do what. And he allows for it. Pretty sadistic, huh? The only way to say that we do have free will with this god is to say he is not all-knowing, and therefore isn't all-powerful or perfect.

God does give free will. You have your own brain to make your own decisions.

[marieelissa]

Your going on the idea he exercises it all the time.

If he does not, he is imperfect. If you know bad things are going to happen and you could stop it easily, but instead you choose to ignore your foresight, you're either extremely evil or mentally incapable of reasoning. Either way, christians are playing for a dealer with a stacked deck.

Angels couldn't even stand in a court with God if he was always exercising his power if he's ALWAYS all-powerful.

Also the fact that God asks questions alone disproves that he always uses his foresight.

Then this alone proves that your god is not all-powerful and not all-knowing. The attributes discussed here are fallible by basic reasoning.

Why should God stop everything we do. That's like a parent getting in their kids way all the time.

[marieelissa]

I know God can't be perfect because there is a fault with him from the get go...he loves and wanted to give life, talk about imperfections.

   Bingo!  Marie, this is the smartest thing I've seen you say lately.  Why can't any of the gods man has invented exist?  Because we made the mistake of endowing them with HUMAN qualities.

A perfect god would not need or want ANYTHING.  He/she/it would be just fine and dandy existing.  Therefore, either god isn't perfect (hah!), or god doesn't exist.  Which is more likely, hmm?

Logic...it's a beautiful thing.  Use it to free yourself from your superstitions!

Yeah I def believe in my own God now.

[Falconer02]

Hey Falconor called me an atheist indirectly

OH NO! Please forgive me! lololol

On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.

Well obviously the child makes a choice, but since it was already set in stone prior to his choice, it really isn't a free choice. It was destined to happen no matter what, and that's why there really isn't free will for the kid. Believing in the christian god leads to fatalism in this respect if one believes he is all-knowing. And if you think this hurts your head...yikes...you should see the massive list of arguments within this idea. It gives me a migraine!

[jcribb16]

I realize I posted this in another similar thread but it fits in here, also.  So I hope you don't mind if I repeat myself from a different thread.  It seems the main disagreement implies that there is an action by God upon a person that negates His freedom to choose. So that would mean the the person making a choice is affected by God's knowledge to such an extent that in essence he really doesn't have that freedom after all.  If that's so, can you prove it logically?

We know that God's knowing what we will choose is a function of His omnipresence, since He is in all places all the time.  That in itself, is hard to understand.  However, this question or disagreement is always going to be unanswerable concretely because when you think about it, we all work in time.  God works outside of time. God deals with the past, present, and future realities and only He knows what has been chosen, is being chose, and will be chosen.  Another idea of this, too, is that the past, present, and future were created for us for our understanding of time.