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Topic: God is a Fake  (Read 123465 times)

falcon9

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #270 on: September 21, 2011, 10:59:03 am »
I don't understand that concept, either.  Are you saying that there is a God but He is fake, or are you saying there is no god, fake or otherwise.  I've read lots of your posts and I believe that YOU may be a fake.   

To whom are you directing your question, loulizee?
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Falconer02

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #271 on: September 21, 2011, 11:06:07 am »
Falcon9- the OP Marieelissa. And yes, she's crazy. Literally.

falcon9

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #272 on: September 21, 2011, 11:14:36 am »
Falcon9- the OP Marieelissa. And yes, she's crazy. Literally.

Ah well, be that as it may, the OP - Marieelisa presented the original claim hasn't bothered to support her contention since.  No doubt this is what Surveymack10 has been riled up about and she remains unable to produce a quote where I'd made any such claim.
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jsuderc

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #273 on: September 21, 2011, 02:25:21 pm »
Falcon9 and Falconer02.

I am not trying to avoid the questions you asked and will reply to them later.

What is it that has made you so bitter to the thought of God? I am not exactly expecting you to answer this question because it is probably personal, but there must be a reason. If you can share some of your story, it might help us understand where you are coming from. I am truly sorry for whatever that may be.

This probably means very little to you based on your attitude throughout this post and many of your other posts, but I just want you to know that I will be praying for you.

Falconer02

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #274 on: September 21, 2011, 03:15:29 pm »
Quote
Marieelisa presented the original claim hasn't bothered to support her contention since.

I don't think she'll be back. She has been gone for a while and she was one of the craziest posters here. 1 day she was an evangelical, the next an atheist, the next agnostic-theist, the next a cultist, etc. This all equals an internet troll.

Quote
What is it that has made you so bitter to the thought of God? I am not exactly expecting you to answer this question because it is probably personal, but there must be a reason. If you can share some of your story, it might help us understand where you are coming from. I am truly sorry for whatever that may be.

The foundation of it isn't really a personal problem. I just grew up and realized that the biblegod is just as real as all the other gods that people said existed throughout history-- long story short, through my research I found it undeniable that they're bogus romanticized stories and the people who praise this god or the stories rarely know what they're talking about when applying them to reality. The thing that really bugs me is that these ancient beliefs still actually have our society still chained to the point where they infect and influence politics and such. In that sense, it's personal.

The contradictions and how the believers hover over them are a frustrating to read though, but it's also funny so I don't know if that counts as a personal problem.

Quote
This probably means very little to you based on your attitude throughout this post and many of your other posts, but I just want you to know that I will be praying for you.

Well thanks...but that's really not necessary. People can take attitudes like this offensively because it can come off as pitying the other individual for irrational reasons which is really rude. Besides, praying is a completely contradictory effort to your god's agenda.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 05:02:38 pm by Falconer02 »

falcon9

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #275 on: September 21, 2011, 04:03:25 pm »
I am not trying to avoid the questions you asked and will reply to them later.

Okay, which questions were those again that you'll be getting around to answering later?

What is it that has made you so bitter to the thought of God?

Why do you presume 'bitterness' must be the reason before asking?  Should I also engage in speculation and hypothesize that your assumption rests solely upon the nature of this particular debate & discussion, which you've determined stems from being "bitter" about something?  It just doesn't occur to you that there could be some other basis, does it?

This probably means very little to you based on your attitude throughout this post and many of your other posts, but I just want you to know that I will be praying for you.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.  The irony of that is your threats on "god's" behalf on the one hand, ("Those who don't believe there is a God will find out that they are wrong, but I really hope that you will realize that before God destroys sin and, with it, those who would not listen to His pleadings to repent." - jsuderc & supposedly, 'god'), while alternatively "praying" for the ones you've threatened on the other.  That's sublime.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

falcon9

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #276 on: September 21, 2011, 04:07:49 pm »
Quote
Marieelisa presented the original claim hasn't bothered to support her contention since.

I don't think she'll be back. She has been gone for a while and she was one of the craziest posters here. 1 day she was an evangelical, the next an atheist, the next agnostic-theist, the next a cultist, etc. This all equals an internet troll.


Surely you're not suggesting that those who assert unfounded claims are merely internet trolls! *gasp*   :P
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

jsuderc

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #277 on: September 21, 2011, 04:28:05 pm »
answers below by number.

I am not trying to avoid the questions you asked and will reply to them later.

Okay, which questions were those again that you'll be getting around to answering later?

1.

What is it that has made you so bitter to the thought of God?

Why do you presume 'bitterness' must be the reason before asking?  Should I also engage in speculation and hypothesize that your assumption rests solely upon the nature of this particular debate & discussion, which you've determined stems from being "bitter" about something?  It just doesn't occur to you that there could be some other basis, does it?

2

This probably means very little to you based on your attitude throughout this post and many of your other posts, but I just want you to know that I will be praying for you.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.  The irony of that is your threats on "god's" behalf on the one hand, ("Those who don't believe there is a God will find out that they are wrong, but I really hope that you will realize that before God destroys sin and, with it, those who would not listen to His pleadings to repent." - jsuderc & supposedly, 'god'), while alternatively "praying" for the ones you've threatened on the other.  That's sublime.

3

1. There were some questions in earlier posts that you asked. I will do my best to answer them later on when I have more time.

2. Perhaps bitterness was not the right word. I do realize that there could be some other basis, but would you be willing to share where you are coming from. All I was saying is that there seems to be something at the root of these feelings against the thought of a God. I am not seeking to offend in any way.

3. I am not trying to threaten you and I am sorry if I came across that way. However, I do not know how else to say what I said. My conviction is that you are making a critical mistake and you feel that you are right. One of us is wrong because we can't both be right. I am not trying to force you to change the way you believe--all I am doing is trying to share my understanding of things in this discussion.

Just a thought: I believe that you are quite intelligent and are making the best decision for yourself based on what you understand and know. Please humor me for a minute--Do you know everything there is to know in the entire universe? If we even knew 1% of what there is to know about everything in the universe, there is still 99% that we don't know about. Could it be that somewhere in the universe, in the part you don't know about, is a God like the one I believe exists? (I am not at all trying to say that I have reached a higher level and know more than you for that would be obnoxious! We are all at different points in our understanding of different things.)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 04:29:36 pm by jsuderc »

SurveyMack10

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #278 on: September 21, 2011, 04:33:42 pm »

That makes no sense considering I made NO claims here.

Your stated claim was as follows:
Reply #175 on: September 05, 2011, 03:56:46 pm, Message ID: 412682
Wherein "SurveyMack10" stated her claim that:

"I am not claiming God is or is not real, I believe He is ..."[/endquote]

You either don't consider your claim to be a claim, (which is an irrelevant consideration since your claim falls under the parameters of making a claim), you're in some sort of pathological/ compulsive denial of making your quoted claim or, you're simply lying.  Which is it?


Repeating myself to you is exhausting- my only claim, if you want to call it that, is to BELIEVE something. I never claimed it was a fact that he existed, it is simply a fact that I believe in him personally.

Yes, your 'belief', (in the reality of "god"), constitutes your claim.  If you are now implying that you believe in something which does not exist, that would be a curious dichotomy.

WRONG- plenty of people BELIEVE in things that are not considered proven facts--- i am not CLAIMING my God's existence is a FACT, I am simply claiming that I BELEIVE IN HIM, hope this makes more sense to ya as I am running out ways to word the same thing.

SurveyMack10

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #279 on: September 21, 2011, 04:35:44 pm »
There are only two sides to this discussion. Let's look at this in a mathematical, logical way. God either exists or he doesn't. That means that there is at least a 50% chance that God exists and a 50% chance God does not exit. He either exists or He doesn't. That is a wager that everybody must take.

Three criteria decide whether or not a wager is intelligent. If you put any wager or gamble into this equation, you will be able to determine whether or not you should take the wager. The three criteria are the size of the prize, the size of the risk, and the chances of actually winning the prize. In a big lottery, the prize is very large and the risk is very small (the cost of the ticket), but the chances of winning are very small. That means that investment of even a small amount of money in such a wager may not be wise. (I do not believe in gambling, but I am not making a case for or against gambling; just bear with me for the point of illustration.)

Let's pretend that all of us who read this are not Christians and think this through logically. Let's take a look at the gospel wager. Since the Bible is the basis of Christianity, let's look at one verse in the Bible that is basically the focal point of the Bible. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

If this is true, what would be the prize? Everlasting life. That is an infinitely incomprehensibly large prize. Living forever means that the first billion years will only be a second in light of living forever. We just can't comprehend that. To look at Christianity by its own claims let's read another verse from the Bible, Mark 10:28-30. In these verses, one of the followers of Jesus, Peter, asks Jesus a question—basically “what do we get from following you, from taking this gospel wager. “Jesus answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.'” Jesus says that if we are obeying and following God, we will have a hundredfold better life in this life and when this story of earth wraps up, we will eternal life. Anyone who has lived a life as a non-christian and has been truly converted can testify to the fact they they are much happier after they become a Christian than before. The possible prize of eternal happiness, both now and for eternity has infinite value.

On its own terms, what is the chance of winning? “Whoever believes” receives the prize. If you have capacity to believe anything, you can win this wager. That means that the chances of winning the prize is 100%—100% of those who take the gospel wager will receive the prize.

What is the risk involved? There is no risk at all. To show that there is risk, you would have to prove that the life of a non-christian was superior in either quantity or quality to the life of a Christian.

The question must be asked, should I choose to live as though God exists or as though God does not exist? The safer choice is to live as though God does exist. If I am  right, I gain everything (infinite happiness) and lose nothing. If wrong, I gain nothing and lose nothing.

The prize is infinitely large; the chance of winning is 100%; and there is absolutely no risk involved. Who wouldn't take a wager like that? If you take this wager, you will lose nothing because there is no risk involved. If you hold to your belief that there is no God and you are wrong, when this life wraps up, you  have lost everything. On the contrary, if I hold to my beliefs that God does exist and choose to live the way He wants me to and I am wrong, when this life is over I will have lost nothing.

Won't you take the wager?

This is a very cool comparison, I have never heard someone put it quite that way and found it very interesting!

SurveyMack10

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #280 on: September 21, 2011, 04:37:14 pm »
Falcon9- the OP Marieelissa. And yes, she's crazy. Literally.

Ah well, be that as it may, the OP - Marieelisa presented the original claim hasn't bothered to support her contention since.  No doubt this is what Surveymack10 has been riled up about and she remains unable to produce a quote where I'd made any such claim.

Talking about me instead of to me- quite mature :)

falcon9

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #281 on: September 21, 2011, 05:03:45 pm »
I am not trying to avoid the questions you asked and will reply to them later.

Okay, which questions were those again that you'll be getting around to answering later?

This probably means very little to you based on your attitude throughout this post and many of your other posts, but I just want you to know that I will be praying for you.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.  The irony of that is your threats on "god's" behalf on the one hand, ("Those who don't believe there is a God will find out that they are wrong, but I really hope that you will realize that before God destroys sin and, with it, those who would not listen to His pleadings to repent." - jsuderc & supposedly, 'god'), while alternatively "praying" for the ones you've threatened on the other.  That's sublime.

[/quote]

1. There were some questions in earlier posts that you asked. I will do my best to answer them later on when I have more time.

Excellent, and which questions were those, specifically?

2. Perhaps bitterness was not the right word. I do realize that there could be some other basis, but would you be willing to share where you are coming from. All I was saying is that there seems to be something at the root of these feelings against the thought of a God. I am not seeking to offend in any way.

To begin with, your "god" doesn't protect me from the follies of 'his' followers.  Those followers are largely 'cultural thieves' in that they swiped much of their altered dogma from previous religions in a cherry-picked manner and the most pertinent basis is that I don't have any particularly strong "feelings" toward something which is merely claimed to exist, (similarly, I harbor no ill will toward "Santa" or, the "easter bunny").

3. I am not trying to threaten you and I am sorry if I came across that way. However, I do not know how else to say what I said.

If you're looking for suggestions on how to rephrase the inherent threat so that the threat isn't a threat afterall, I may be able to assist, (although I haven't given such dissembling much consideration as yet).

My conviction is that you are making a critical mistake and you feel that you are right. One of us is wrong because we can't both be right. I am not trying to force you to change the way you believe--all I am doing is trying to share my understanding of things in this discussion.

The difference is that I'm not the one making an unsupported claim, ("belief in god" -- note that disbelieving someone else's initial claim and requesting substantiation for such a claim is not, in and of itself, a claim).  Certainly I contend that there is an overwhelming possibility that those who make such unfounded claims on the basis of "belief/faith" are drawing invalid conclusions upon that basis.  However, that remains a central point of my assertion, (with substantiation), that some people choose to make irrational choices.

Please humor me for a minute--Do you know everything there is to know in the entire universe? If we even knew 1% of what there is to know about everything in the universe, there is still 99% that we don't know about.

That's a sophist stance since the probability for anything one can imagine, (or, can't imagine yet), to exist is indeterminate.  It does not logically follow that the odds favor such theoretical existigencies.  If one forms a theoretical premise, (in this instance, that "god" may or does exist), one cannot rationally use an indeterminate, ('we don't know everything'), as the supporting basis for such a theory.  What theories are intended to do is take observed phenomenon, (or that which is directly derived from such), and posit the 'how'.  Your 'theory' doesn't do that.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

falcon9

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #282 on: September 21, 2011, 05:08:48 pm »
plenty of people BELIEVE in things that are not considered proven facts--- i am not CLAIMING my God's existence is a FACT, I am simply claiming that I BELEIVE IN HIM, hope this makes more sense to ya as I am running out ways to word the same thing.

To summarize your claim then; you are asserting that you "believe" in something which lacks a factual basis for existance.  In other words, you aren't claiming such an existance as a fact but, are claiming to "believe" in a hypothetical existance.  This is a curious state of affairs.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

falcon9

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #283 on: September 21, 2011, 05:10:56 pm »

[a paraphrased version of Pascal's Wager]

This is a very cool comparison, I have never heard someone put it quite that way and found it very interesting!

It's still Pascal's Wager, no matter how you slice it.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

falcon9

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Re: God is a Fake
« Reply #284 on: September 21, 2011, 05:13:09 pm »
Falcon9- the OP Marieelissa. And yes, she's crazy. Literally.

Ah well, be that as it may, the OP - Marieelisa presented the original claim hasn't bothered to support her contention since.  No doubt this is what Surveymack10 has been riled up about and she remains unable to produce a quote where I'd made any such claim.

Talking about me instead of to me- quite mature :)

I often 'talk' to you, (although I wonder just as often why I bother), and was referencing something you wrote.  You do recall claiming that I made some sort of claim which you remain unable to produce, don't you?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

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