To the Christian who thinks only those who accept Christ will go to heaven....

[IceKittyNM]

Because he knew what choice you'd make beforehand- him being all-knowing prevents a free will choice because it was predetermined.

Falconer....

"Because He knew": does not mean "He made (forced)"

"what choice you'd make beforehand": she had a choice to make and she made it....God did not force her to do things HIS way.....and THAT IS FREE WILL!!

"him being all-knowing prevents a free will choice because it was predetermined":  God does know what choices we will make before we make them, but He does not force HIS will on us...if He did, we would all be puppets. Just because He knows something beforehand doesn't mean our choices have suddenly disappeared!

[shernajwine]

All I'm trying to state here is this is an unjustified debate due to an unknown variable and it falls on a fallacy.

Then the question 502 asked can't be answered by a Christian. Since no one can say with proof that God put anything in their heart, then no one can answer his question from the belief standpoint. Which, I think is ridiculous, since he was asking Christians.

Because he knew what choice you'd make beforehand- him being all-knowing prevents a free will choice because it was predetermined

Him knowing what choice you would make does not mean that he predetermined it.

Predetermine
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: "

God does not decide or establish our choice in advance


Know
to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty:

to be cognizant or aware of:


God is aware of our choice in advance.

It simply means he knows, you are extrapolating one concept to another.

[Falconer02]

Since no one can say with proof that God put anything in their heart, then no one can answer his question from the belief standpoint. Which, I think is ridiculous, since he was asking Christians.

Ah. True. Seems like you answered his question then!

Him knowing what choice you would make does not mean that he predetermined it.

God does know what choices we will make before we make them, but He does not force HIS will on us...if He did, we would all be puppets. Just because He knows something beforehand doesn't mean our choices have suddenly disappeared!

she had a choice to make and she made it....God did not force her to do things HIS way.....and THAT IS FREE WILL!!

I think you're looking at it with the foundations flipped. Even if this god is just simply aware of the choices in advance and it knows the outcome, the choice is still an illusion since the outcome is already known in advance and inevitable. A christian may have and make a choice, but it is not a free choice since the course of action is known prior to the decision. Ultimately they are powerless to do anything other because of the 'all-knowing' aspect of the god-- an example being a person going against your stacked deck and then they say they will no doubt win the game because the game is fair. You know they're going to lose, but you don't interfere even though you stacked that deck. The cards were already set for them to lose beforehand, so any decision they make will result in losing the game. Choice is just a masked illusion in this sense.

And yes, I see that I was kind of extrapolating there. Though considering christians believe that this god created everything in existence, couldn't one conclude that since god knew from the 'day' the universe was built that everything was decided then due to the all-knowing aspect?

This can now extend beyond religious dogma, but I'm trying not to do that since we'll end up writing 50 pages in this thread.

[walksalone11]

So....you have "free choice" yet someone already knows what you are going to do even before you do it or know that you are going to do it and since it is already known you must do it just as so.....however, you still have the choice to do it even tho that is the only choice you really have available.

***scratches head***

And you still have free choice?

Never mind, you guys are making my brain ache......

[shernajwine]

And yes, I see that I was kind of extrapolating there. Though considering christians believe that this god created everything in existence, couldn't one conclude that since god knew from the 'day' the universe was built that everything was decided then due to the all-knowing aspect?

Well, that's a good question however you are dealing with a God that does not have time limits. Time does not exist for him the way it does for us. I used this example with queen once. We as human beings perceive time on a line we have a beginning and an end, we live out the events of our lives on this line and it is finite. God is timeless, so to him that line is a circle and he is in the middle of it touching all points of time at the same time. So at the same time I'm being born, I'm getting married. On a larger scale, at the same time God was forming the universe, Jesus was being crucified, and my  hamster was eating a carrot. So it is a complex idea and difficult to comprehend because our finite minds have a hard time grasping something outside of our own limitations

But for the sake of argument here, everything was decided from the beginning, but who did the deciding? Just because God knows the decision does not mean he coerced the decision to go a certain way thereby causing the decisions outcome to be what he "knows" will happen. I still make the decision, just because God knew I would make it, doesn't somehow mean that I HAD to make it, it just means God already knew I would. Again, knowing isn't causing.

This particular argument hurts my brain so I hope I made sense lol.

[jordandog]

This is not a put-down or an argument, it is an observation. I find it ludicrous that anyone thinks God (or any entity), can possibly keep track of billions upon billions upon billions of predestined cellular/human activities, not to mention the thoughts that come into play. Even as a christian, I found this 'stand' ridiculous to possibly grasp. If you do do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you do NOT do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something and did it and it turned out well, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something, did it, and it turned out bad, there is an argument re God to support that. On and on and on. Lets not even get into the 'degrees of sin'. Bad is bad and good is good in my world. There is no grey area for me to slide into and no one but myself to 'blame' when I do something I know is wrong.

This list can go on forever and it makes every single human being sound like a mindless, uncontrolled machine. If you read through this thread, in particular, you will see that not one 'religious' poster can actually answer a question put to them! It is all a circular argument. Headache from reading it? Small wonder - none of it makes an iota of sense in the actual world. What happened to common sense and self accountability? I'll tell ya what happened to it. It doesn't have to exist if you have something else you can say is running your life. Thanks, but no thanks, I will make my own decisions and take the consequences for my own actions.

[walksalone11]

This is not a put-down or an argument, it is an observation. I find it ludicrous that anyone thinks God (or any entity), can possibly keep track of billions upon billions upon billions of predestined cellular/human activities, not to mention the thoughts that come into play. Even as a christian, I found this 'stand' ridiculous to possibly grasp. If you do do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you do NOT do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something and did it and it turned out well, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something, did it, and it turned out bad, there is an argument re God to support that. On and on and on. Lets not even get into the 'degrees of sin'. Bad is bad and good is good in my world. There is no grey area for me to slide into and no one but myself to 'blame' when I do something I know is wrong.

This list can go on forever and it makes every single human being sound like a mindless, uncontrolled machine. If you read through this thread, in particular, you will see that not one 'religious' poster can actually answer a question put to them! It is all a circular argument. Headache from reading it? Small wonder - none of it makes an iota of sense in the actual world. What happened to common sense and self accountability? I'll tell ya what happened to it. It doesn't have to exist if you have something else you can say is running your life. Thanks, but no thanks, I will make my own decisions and take the consequences for my own actions.

Yeah.....what she said.

I could actually comprehend that......

[teflonfanatic]

This is not a put-down or an argument, it is an observation. I find it ludicrous that anyone thinks God (or any entity), can possibly keep track of billions upon billions upon billions of predestined cellular/human activities, not to mention the thoughts that come into play. Even as a christian, I found this 'stand' ridiculous to possibly grasp. If you do do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you do NOT do something, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something and did it and it turned out well, there is an argument re God to support that. If you thought about something, did it, and it turned out bad, there is an argument re God to support that. On and on and on. Lets not even get into the 'degrees of sin'. Bad is bad and good is good in my world. There is no grey area for me to slide into and no one but myself to 'blame' when I do something I know is wrong.

This list can go on forever and it makes every single human being sound like a mindless, uncontrolled machine. If you read through this thread, in particular, you will see that not one 'religious' poster can actually answer a question put to them! It is all a circular argument. Headache from reading it? Small wonder - none of it makes an iota of sense in the actual world. What happened to common sense and self accountability? I'll tell ya what happened to it. It doesn't have to exist if you have something else you can say is running your life. Thanks, but no thanks, I will make my own decisions and take the consequences for my own actions.

Yeah.....what she said.

I could actually comprehend that......

Umm critique my argument please(it's below)


On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.

[Falconer02]

On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.

Like I've stated before, the choice is an illusion because the course of action/choice was already mapped out prior to the choice. You may make the choice and it may seem like you are free to make it, but with a deity that has all-knowledge and a plan, you really don't have one since it was known beforehand.

Sherna- I'll get back to you. At work.

Jdog- For the most part, I agree. Your post is pretty much why I'm a compatibilist.

[teflonfanatic]

On another note, let's say your parents really know you, they know you so well to the point even if you tell them something they know what your going to do. I.E. They know if you tell them your going to the library then you either go to the library or go to the city to go partying. Now does the fact that the parent knows what the kids going to do means the parent chooses whether the kid goes to the library or not? If it hurts your head read it a few times.

Like I've stated before, the choice is an illusion because the course of action/choice was already mapped out prior to the choice. You may make the choice and it may seem like you are free to make it, but with a deity that has all-knowledge and a plan, you really don't have one since it was known beforehand.

Sherna- I'll get back to you. At work.

Jdog- For the most part, I agree. Your post is pretty much why I'm a compatibilist.

Good argument except you also map out your life and plans thus your own choices are illusions too  . Heck I guess God's own judgments(choices on condemning action) is an illusion too since he mapped those out long before the world began.

[Falconer02]

Good argument except you also map out your life and plans thus your own choices are illusions too  

Well nothing ever goes according to plan since we don't have knowledge of the futue. If this statement were true, I'd be a billionaire and married to the hottest woman on earth.

Heck I guess God's own judgments(choices on condemning action) is an illusion too since he mapped those out long before the world began.

That's a good point. And that's why I think the whole idea here is just insane because people following this deity so adamantly think he's full of love and yet he pulls such an evil move (unless he's imperfect). Like Jdog put it, there's probably some cop-out reasoning to this and that's a major reason why agnostics/atheists don't even bother with religion-- it's to the point where it's just so ludicrous to even assume such things.

[jordandog]

Neglected to add this to last post, don't need any misinterpretation and hurt feelings caused by my words, and I really need to get some sleep before work tonight(!). So here it is.

@Sherene: I think your post about the man and not helping him is very similar to things we have discussed on here before. Your own 'gut' told you not to go back and help him. You said you felt you had missed an opportunity, but I feel you made the right decision. Yes, it might have turned out to be a very sincere and wonderful man, BUT he could just as well turned out to be a rapist and you his next victim. I will not argue with you saying God told you to help him or put the thought in your head because that is your belief system in play and not my business. It is another mind boggling, to me, example of the whole "do it, don't do it, think it because you were told to think it, yada....'. I just never reached that point of total control of every second, minute, action, thought, for ever and ever aspect by God when I did believe.

See you all later on.

[shernajwine]

Well I have assurance from past experience that the urge I had to help the man was God. And I SHOULD have had faith that since I knew it was God that he was not telling me to help a man so I could be raped. I believe that I listened to the wrong voice (satan) feeding me fear and not trusting God. After all I have helped homeless people before without fear. But of course I am coming from a standpoint that the spiritual invisible things of this world are completely real, so for someone who doesn't believe that, it's not easy to understand where I'm coming from and I certainly sound nuts to some but I don't really care.

I let fear overcome an opportunity that God was giving me to help somebody and make a difference.

The history of the human race is the history of ordinary people who have overcome their fears and accomplished extraordinary things.~Brian Tracy

Of course a person should be wise in their decisions and not just follow every impulse they ever have. But believing that God told me to help the man, wisdom would have been obeying that urge and watching God do something great in someones life.

And I disagree that no religious post has given answers. It's just that you disagree with their answers.

[jordandog]

And I disagree that no religious post has given answers. It's just that you disagree with their answers.

The above quote is ONLY for the purpose of this post and is NOT directed specifically at who said it. The only way I can disagree with something is IF I give that something validity to begin with. Since I don't find the see-sawing back and forth combined with giving credence to an omnipotent force valid, I don't disagree with it. I dismiss it, period. If you can all extrapolate as far as God having a different 'sense of time' than humans, part of why he knows everything before it happens, then take it a step further. The rapist, murderer, child molester, who also believes in God and his omnipotence can use the same equation for his/her actions. It is a higher DEGREE of sin, but God already knows THEIR thoughts anyway, so when they contemplate doing an aborrhent act, they can use the same reasoning and justification. God put the thoughts into their head because they too believe in him, God already knew what they were going to do (possibly eons before they were even conceived), so they went forward and acted on their thinking.

I'm sure that this will be looked at as invalid. Why should it be though? You can't apply rules or restrictions to omnipotence when you want to or just to positive situations. If you do, it is NO longer omnipotence and is flawed from the get-go. This is why feathers get ruffled and hackles raise up. Most believers want to work in a magical grey area - speak as a witness to the great and heart warming things, but change the rules when things don't look so hot in the harsh light of reality.

[shernajwine]

God put the thoughts into their head because they too believe in him, God already knew what they were going to do (possibly eons before they were even conceived), so they went forward and acted on their thinking.

I may be misunderstanding you    but God wouldn't put it into someones head to rape or murder or molest somebody so that isn't an excuse to act on those sinful thoughts. And just because God knew a persons sin before they ever committed it doesn't mean that he caused them to sin or that their behavior is justified through the simple fact of God knowing they would do it.