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Topic: Serious questions for believers  (Read 6085 times)

queenofnines

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Serious questions for believers
« on: June 04, 2010, 01:53:19 pm »
I want this post to have believers of God to stop and think for a few minutes about something they've probably never considered before.  Hypothetically, if it could be proven to you that god doesn't exist and you now had to accept this, that there is nothing after you die, and if most of your church withdrew their positions of belief in light of scientific evidence:

1) How would you feel? (depressed, neutral, relieved, etc.)
2) How do you think it might change your life?

Basically, no matter the amount of faith you have right now, I want to get you thinking about the alternative if god didn't exist and have some honest answers because it is something I am curious about and think is healthy for people to ponder about.  Would it really be that bad for you if you learned there was no god (that they were all invented by man)?  Again, hypothetically.  ;)

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan


jordandog

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2010, 04:49:39 pm »
Excellent topic queenofnines, good on ya mate!  :thumbsup: This is a thread I will be watching. You already know my stance on the subject, so I am not one to give you an answer, but I think this could be very enlightening. The one obstacle is getting people to actually read and 'follow directions' if you get my drift. I know there are certainly some members here who are capable of doing that. The first response, unfortunately, was not in the scope of what you asked to be done. I hope to see some that are so I can see if they are along the lines of what I have been told when I've posed similar 'what ifs' to my friends.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

queenofnines

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2010, 07:36:06 pm »
The one obstacle is getting people to actually read and 'follow directions' if you get my drift. I know there are certainly some members here who are capable of doing that. The first response, unfortunately, was not in the scope of what you asked to be done.

Yup!  The main question is basically the same one they pose to atheists: What if you're wrong?  I'd like people to really ponder the possibility that there is nothing after they die...does that scare them?

Marieelissa did not fully answer the question because she was quick to be like, "There is no point going there in my thinking because there IS a god!"  Sorry, but that was not following the guidelines for the exercise.  You have to truly pause for a moment and pretend your beliefs are wrong and what does that mean for you.
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

jcribb16

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2010, 08:31:56 pm »
 :cat: It would change my life for the worst.  To know that there would not be eternity with passed loved ones and God, would be a black cloud of despair if I dwelled on it. :'(  Otherwise, once I died, I wouldn't know then because I would be dead and gone.  Thank goodness, I can hold on to my true belief  :angel12: or I would be a worrywart until the end.  Thanks for making us think!

queenofnines

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2010, 05:27:27 am »
Good responses.  :)

I just try to live my life and enjoy the time I have and love every moment and very thankful for my parents who gave me life and brought me here to see things I wouldn't have otherwise seen.

Yep, but have you considered just how lucky you are that you are alive at all?  You beat out 300 million of your brothers and sisters that fateful day you were conceived.  ;)  Had it been a millisecond later or earlier that your parents came together, you would not be here.  More food for thought.
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

jcribb16

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2010, 06:24:53 am »
 :cat: You do some deep thinking about some intense topics.  I don't think a lot of people are able to do that.  At least you can face some hard questions head-on where for some people that's too much to handle.   ;)

klkwid

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2010, 07:10:36 am »
I dont' think it would change the way I act towards other people or towards life.  I'm a live and let live type of person-do unto others...., you know?  I don't think I'd be too bummed or anything, though, because you can't change the way things like that are-make the most of life on Earth.  What really bothers me about some people who believe is that they cling to that as an excuse for anything-they do horrible things to each other, say nasty stuff, then say "well it's OK when I do it because I believe in God and I'm forgiven!!"  I believe in God, but I think he helps those who help themselves.  Actions speak louder than words.  A lot of athiests look at believers who act like that and are completely turned off to the idea-the believers actually drive the athiests further away rather than draw them closer, then the believers look at those people and shun them off as less than "elite" like the other believers and say they don't want anything to do with them because those people are going to hell. 

queenofnines

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2010, 07:51:37 am »
A lot of athiests look at believers who act like that and are completely turned off to the idea-the believers actually drive the athiests further away rather than draw them closer, then the believers look at those people and shun them off as less than "elite" like the other believers and say they don't want anything to do with them because those people are going to hell. 

Yes believers can turn atheists off, *but* that is usually not the reason why atheists are atheists.  It is something else I wanted to discuss -- the common mis-conceptions amongst believers as to why there are atheists.  I think believers think atheists:

a) Are just going through a "phase" and will "see the light" later in life before they perish in hell (if the mom is a believer and the child is an atheist, for example)
b) Simply don't understand the godly-spiritual stuff
c) Are mad at god and want to be able to sin freely

All of these are WRONG!

The primary reason for any intelligent atheist not believing god is that there is evidence is against him!  Evidence that cannot be clearly seen when one is being suffocated by the security blanket of religion.
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

queenofnines

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2010, 11:39:31 am »
Yeah, I have thought about how easy it would of been for me not to have been born...it wouldn't have mattered though if I wasn't...It happend the way it did so I could live.

That's kind of the reason I believe in Something greater/larger more intelligent, in control of everything (not necessarily God)

Nope, one of those spermy dudes had to get picked, one of them had to win, and just because it was you relates to the anthropic principle.  All of your brothers and sisters on that day don't exist like you do to ponder the fact that they were the lucky one that got picked.

If you believe you are special, god must have had to make sure the sperm that was you made it to the egg safely and forsook all of the MILLIONS of extra sperms.  Which is ridiculous, btw.
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

queenofnines

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2010, 11:46:33 am »
I think most people are atheists because they don't know if God is there and cannot tell so therefore they just don't believe and move on.

Eh, that is a very small group and should definitely not be stereotyped onto the whole of atheists, because in most cases it is incorrect.  Most atheists were once believers who truly followed said god.  What you don't understand because you are in it is that the belief mindset is one that is on lockdown by delusions and wishful thinking.  Ex-believers are ones who refused to keep quiet when an important question or situation came up; they started to realize their critical thinking skills had been supressed, and in light of heaps of information and common-sense proofs, saw that they were wrong in believing in any god that has a holy book attached to it.
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

jordandog

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2010, 05:29:37 pm »
I don't understand why people who don't believe in God think they are intelligent! It seems like they are the ones that want to talk about God the most.

You don't believe in God, Good for you but really who cares? There is a God or there isn't...so what.

Einstein said it is more important to have an imagination than intelligence.

Just because you don't believe in God does not make you intelligent, it is very easy not to believe in God (cause like wtf is he?) I just want you to know that the belief in God is a freedom in America and atheists should respect that! If someone hurts you because of religion than call the cops.

If anything the belief in God is a delusion ( a false belief)

You know you are intelligent when you come up with something for yourself and quit looking at everyone else.

Exactly who said and where was it said that all atheists think they are intelligent? Exactly who said and where was it said you or anyone else does not have the freedom to believe in God? Exactly who said and where was it said atheists do not respect another's belief in God?

Blanket statements that cannot be backed up and generalizations that don't have a thing to do with what queenofnines asked. Do you purposely take topics off the rails just to get things stirred up?
You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

queenofnines

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2010, 06:01:12 pm »
I don't understand why people who don't believe in God think they are intelligent! It seems like they are the ones that want to talk about God the most.

Hmm, is this a personal attack against me?  A lot of people - atheists and theists alike - think that they are intelligent.  Of course not all who think they are actually are.  ;)  I never said all atheists are intelligent *but* - as a general rule - someone who has been able to break away from the shackles of religion is a lot more likely to be intelligent than someone who hasn't.

And as for talking about god all of the time...you just don't understand.  The subject is something that many atheists are concerned about because religion is a delusional fairytale that the majority of people think is real and will kill and harm in the name of.

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Einstein said it is more important to have an imagination than intelligence.

And imagination is where religion comes from.

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it is very easy not to believe in God (cause like wtf is he?)

If it was that easy to not believe in god, than why do so many of you cling to him so?

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I just want you to know that the belief in God is a freedom in America and atheists should respect that!

I respect your freedom to believe but I DO NOT respect your religion.  It is not worthy of respect - it's horrible.  It does horrible things.  I just wish people would force themselves to become a little more educated on matters before settling on "god did it!" because if they did, they might be shocked at what they'd find and feel betrayed by the lies they've docilely believed for years.

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If anything the belief in God is a delusion ( a false belief)

You said it, not me.

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You know you are intelligent when you come up with something for yourself and quit looking at everyone else.

That is all I am arguing for.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 06:03:11 pm by queenofnines »
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

queenofnines

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2010, 07:44:15 pm »
No it wasn't a personal attack but I don't like how the atheists on this forum think they are so smart and call believers morons or whatever else.

If you really have to brag about something it is more than likely it isn't you.

I've never called a believer a moron to their face.  That's mean and usually not the case, anyway.  It has more to do with emotional weakness.

And I don't recall bragging about being intelligent on this forum.
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

Falconer02

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2010, 08:59:32 am »
Quote
Blanket statements that cannot be backed up and generalizations that don't have a thing to do with what queenofnines asked. Do you purposely take topics off the rails just to get things stirred up?

May I remind you she's trolling again. She believes in god and then admits god is a delusion. She's psycho. Don't fall into her obvious cycle-trap.

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1) How would you feel? (depressed, neutral, relieved, etc.)

1.) Very mixed but mostly neutral. The reason I say this is because personally I wouldn't care much due to my stance. What I would care about is what happens to everyone else and how it could effect me. People have such a ground-in definition of god, religion, spirituality, etc. in their heads that taking that away from them could prove disasterous. In cultural cases, delusional thinking can keep the peace.

I speculate that removing this pillow would prove to have negative consequences on peaceful people, but positive side effects on extremists. Peacefuls would realize that there's no need to fear and love an invisible being and might turn violent and careless due to them realizing there's no after-life consequences for their actions. But with the extremists, since they're already violent, I would expect them to come to terms with themselves and realize what awful horrific and monstrous people they really are. Preaching hate, swaying weak minds, blowing people up, etc. throughout history and all in the name of their god-- all for nothing. I would hope they'd lead a life of redemption and do a 180 on what they were bringing to the world.

That, or maybe the suicide rate would sky rocket.

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2) How do you think it might change your life

Other than looking at telescope images of other galaxies and going "WTF!? WHY SO FAR!?", nothing really.

queenofnines

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Re: Serious questions for believers
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2010, 11:16:20 am »
Welcome to the discussion, Falconer!   :D

What I would care about is what happens to everyone else and how it could effect me. People have such a ground-in definition of god, religion, spirituality, etc. in their heads that taking that away from them could prove disasterous. In cultural cases, delusional thinking can keep the peace.

I agree that is a very real possibility and is what makes the whole thing so sad!  It's probably better (and more realistic) to gradually move away from our god delusions than try to change the whole world in a day.

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I speculate that removing this pillow would prove to have negative consequences on peaceful people, but positive side effects on extremists. Peacefuls would realize that there's no need to fear and love an invisible being and might turn violent and careless due to them realizing there's no after-life consequences for their actions. But with the extremists, since they're already violent, I would expect them to come to terms with themselves and realize what awful horrific and monstrous people they really are.

Yeah, I think some people would definitely take the "I can get away with anything now" mentality and run with it, forgetting that there are still real-world consequences and punishments for their behaviors just like there always was.  I would hope most people would realize that without god, life is now much more precious, and would respect their fellow human beings' right to it.  It only requires a brain of moderate goodness and strength to be able to do that.

As for extremists seeing the err of their ways...I dunno, I still think a lot of them would continue on being nuts about something.

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That, or maybe the suicide rate would sky rocket.

Eh, we can't really guess how much it would go up.  It would definitely go up...but hopefully, people would realize that nothing's really changed in life in regards to what makes them happy or what interests them.  That everything that makes life great still makes it worth living, even if it is only for 70 or 80 years.  We are driven by instinct to survive at all costs and it takes real *bleep* to force yourself to overcome that!
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
-- Carl Sagan

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