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Topic: The Proof You Seek  (Read 4857 times)

Annella

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The Proof You Seek
« on: November 15, 2011, 12:49:56 pm »
It has been said many times to us that believers must provide proof of God's existence or the burden of proof rests with us. After much prayer and thought I've realized that there is no way, nor is it our mission to prove that God exists or the Bible is the True Word of God.

Because God set it up like this: Either you believe and then you realize the "proof" of his existence or you go your whole life questioning it, or denying it. Now there are those that have stated that they have tried "religion" and have not found what they were looking for. The thing is to create a "relationship" with God yourself. There is no church or denomination that will save you. If you really come to the Lord with a pure and sincere heart, then He will come and make His abode with you. That is being saved. There are other steps AFTER you believe (Acts 2:38), but the initial process is simple, then everything falls into place after that, and continues as you live your life for Him. The more you live a sanctified life, the more God reveals to you, and you grow in the knowledge of Christ. That's how it works. How God set it up in HIS Wisdom.

I have joined with other people like myself (of like precious faith), and we attend "church". However, the "church" is actually a group of people that follow Christ and adhere to his Word. Not a building. There are some people of different denominations that have found the correct plan of Salvation and are in the "church" or "body of Christ". However, some that profess to be Christians.....are not. It is those that believe and ACT upon the Word of God accordingly in whole. Remember the parable of the wheat and tares?

In Jesus day when He walked the earth and healed all manner of sickness, disease, raised the dead, etc., there were those that saw with their own eyes and still did not believe. Even one of His own disciples turned on Him after seeing all the wonders of God before his eyes. The Bible tells us that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the son of man. It will be a normal day like any other.....business as usual. No matter what miracle we can point to will still not be believed by those who do not want to believe. Even if it's before their very eyes, they will not believe. This is the "hardness of heart" that overcomes unbelievers, mockers and scoffers.

What I'm saying is that we as believers do NOT have any obligation to prove the Lord's existence. It's not our job. If they didn't believe in His time looking upon the miracles with their own eyes, then what can we say to convince them? We are His witness's, but not to the point of proving Him. That's the beauty of it and how God set it up. The "wise" in their own eyes will not find Him. They wanted to see a miracle or signs from the Lord when he was here, but the Lord would not oblige them. I'm talking about the high religious rulers of the day, and high government officials, mockers, scoffers, etc. Jesus knew that even if they saw, they would not believe. However, he did miracles in the presence of those who would believe. God knows our hearts. We look on the outside, but God sees inside. We judge no man. In fact, man judges himself by the choices he makes.

Unless we become as little children and believe (submission), we will perish without God. That's the ironic part here. The wise in their own hearts will not find Him. They will be blocked until they believe and let God come in. We who do know Him only need to live our lives for Him and that is the only testimony we must put forth. There will be those that will ask about the hope that is within you, and they may hear. However, there will also be those who choose occasion to mock your gift and your love for your Master. From such we are to turn away. My brothers and sisters, do not be dismayed if your words seem to be falling to the ground. It's not your job to convince anyone that God exists, or His Word is True. We are only to live it and obey it ourselves for a testimony. The separation is invisible to those who are lost, and the preaching of the Gospel is foolishness unto them.

I've decided to leave this one encouragement before I leave. Keep the Faith, and strive for the Mark of the High Calling of God. My prayers are with you. While we are in this world, we are not of it, and must remember that we are just passing through to a City built without hands where our God has prepared a place for us. Love and blessings to all those who are His alone. In 41 years, I've found Him to be everything to me. He has NEVER failed me in anything and has always been there.....and always will be. Those of you who are real children of God know what I'm talking about.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 03:26:44 pm by Annella »

falcon9

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 01:09:41 pm »
It has been said many times to us that believers must provide proof of God's existence or the burden of proof rests with us. After much prayer and thought I've realized that there is no way, nor is it our mission to prove that God exists or the Bible is the True Word of God.


Since the burden of proof does rest with the claimaint and no evidence is provided to support them, they are empty claims.  Merely declaring that this burden of proof isn't the responsibility of the claimaint is an irrational dodge which is rejected on that basis.

 
Because God set it up like this


There is no evidence for such a claim.  Sans evidence, the claim is empty.


In Jesus day when He walked the earth and healed all manner of sickness, disease, raised the dead


No valid evidence has been presented to support such claims.  Hearsay does not constitute valid evidence.  Such claims are therefore empty.


What I'm saying is that we as believers do NOT have any obligation to prove the Lord's existence.


This is not correct; the one who makes the claim carries the obligation to support their claim with valid evidence or, such a claim is empty.


It's not our job.


Then it is also not your "job" to toss unsubstantiated claims out as if they had any validity.  If you feel you 'must' evangelize and make false claims, then some dissent and opposition is a reasonable expectation.

 
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Falconer02

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 03:35:20 pm »


That outta wrap things up.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 03:45:04 pm by Falconer02 »

falcon9

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 03:53:11 pm »


That outta wrap things up.


One would think so, even if the one replied to seems to be missing reasoning subroutines in her database, others aren't.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

batmobile

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2011, 01:12:28 pm »
It has been said many times to us that believers must provide proof of God's existence or the burden of proof rests with us. After much prayer and thought I've realized that there is no way, nor is it our mission to prove that God exists or the Bible is the True Word of God.

Because God set it up like this: Either you believe and then you realize the "proof" of his existence or you go your whole life questioning it, or denying it. Now there are those that have stated that they have tried "religion" and have not found what they were looking for. The thing is to create a "relationship" with God yourself. There is no church or denomination that will save you. If you really come to the Lord with a pure and sincere heart, then He will come and make His abode with you. That is being saved. There are other steps AFTER you believe (Acts 2:38), but the initial process is simple, then everything falls into place after that, and continues as you live your life for Him. The more you live a sanctified life, the more God reveals to you, and you grow in the knowledge of Christ. That's how it works. How God set it up in HIS Wisdom.

I have joined with other people like myself (of like precious faith), and we attend "church". However, the "church" is actually a group of people that follow Christ and adhere to his Word. Not a building. There are some people of different denominations that have found the correct plan of Salvation and are in the "church" or "body of Christ". However, some that profess to be Christians.....are not. It is those that believe and ACT upon the Word of God accordingly in whole. Remember the parable of the wheat and tares?

In Jesus day when He walked the earth and healed all manner of sickness, disease, raised the dead, etc., there were those that saw with their own eyes and still did not believe. Even one of His own disciples turned on Him after seeing all the wonders of God before his eyes. The Bible tells us that as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the son of man. It will be a normal day like any other.....business as usual. No matter what miracle we can point to will still not be believed by those who do not want to believe. Even if it's before their very eyes, they will not believe. This is the "hardness of heart" that overcomes unbelievers, mockers and scoffers.

What I'm saying is that we as believers do NOT have any obligation to prove the Lord's existence. It's not our job. If they didn't believe in His time looking upon the miracles with their own eyes, then what can we say to convince them? We are His witness's, but not to the point of proving Him. That's the beauty of it and how God set it up. The "wise" in their own eyes will not find Him. They wanted to see a miracle or signs from the Lord when he was here, but the Lord would not oblige them. I'm talking about the high religious rulers of the day, and high government officials, mockers, scoffers, etc. Jesus knew that even if they saw, they would not believe. However, he did miracles in the presence of those who would believe. God knows our hearts. We look on the outside, but God sees inside. We judge no man. In fact, man judges himself by the choices he makes.

Unless we become as little children and believe (submission), we will perish without God. That's the ironic part here. The wise in their own hearts will not find Him. They will be blocked until they believe and let God come in. We who do know Him only need to live our lives for Him and that is the only testimony we must put forth. There will be those that will ask about the hope that is within you, and they may hear. However, there will also be those who choose occasion to mock your gift and your love for your Master. From such we are to turn away. My brothers and sisters, do not be dismayed if your words seem to be falling to the ground. It's not your job to convince anyone that God exists, or His Word is True. We are only to live it and obey it ourselves for a testimony. The separation is invisible to those who are lost, and the preaching of the Gospel is foolishness unto them.

I've decided to leave this one encouragement before I leave. Keep the Faith, and strive for the Mark of the High Calling of God. My prayers are with you. While we are in this world, we are not of it, and must remember that we are just passing through to a City built without hands where our God has prepared a place for us. Love and blessings to all those who are His alone. In 41 years, I've found Him to be everything to me. He has NEVER failed me in anything and has always been there.....and always will be. Those of you who are real children of God know what I'm talking about.


well, i believe things happen for a reason.  :angel12: lol

noirlupe

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2011, 02:16:43 pm »
I choose to not worry about what others think,  what I believe and how I honor my relationship with God is all that matters.  Proof to me is how I feel when I am spending time with God in Pray and meditation.  What others believe is on them and not my concern.

falcon9

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2011, 06:16:42 pm »
I choose to not worry about what others think ...


Yet, you posted that reply, (inherently suggesting that others can choose not to worry about what you think/believe).  That's curious because one might wonder that, if another is unworried about something, why would they need to say so?


... what I believe and how I honor my relationship with God is all that matters.


It might be "all that matters" to _you_ however, you aren't the only one doing so, (and some are far more strident about it, attempting to affect public policies and so on).


Proof to me is how I feel when I am spending time with God in Pray and meditation.  What others believe is on them and not my concern.


Although a person is free to internally redefine what constitutes actual "proof" to conform to a conclusion they've already arrived at, this does not necessarily constitute objective proof/evidence.  What constitutes external evidence is not a matter of "belief" since the meaning of the term has clear parameters.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

teflonfanatic

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2011, 06:52:22 pm »
Let me try to explain why there's "no proof" in atheist mentality...

The so-called word of God said magic(miracles) will cease to exist among it's followers therefore God made it impossible for me(the thickheaded know-it-all 12th level intellect) for me to take him seriously?

Any objection Falconor and his cousin/son or whatever Falcon9?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 07:00:39 pm by teflonfanatic »

falcon9

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2011, 07:00:38 pm »
Let me try to explain why there's "no proof" in atheist mentally...

The so-called word of God said magic(miracles) will cease to exist among it's followers therefore God made it impossible for me(the thickheaded know-it-all 12th level intellect) for me to take him seriously?


Since the "proof" reference is to a dubious source, (unverified hearsay), it does not constitute evidence.


Any objection Falconor and his cousin/son or whatever Falcon9?


In addition to the "objection", (dissent based on lack of substantive evidence), I'm completely unrelated to Falconeer02.  The screen name/'nym used on FC is loosely-based on the general habits of falcons.  Whereas I can only guess that, because falconeers handle falcons, an unwarranted connection was made, (which, I assure you, has occurred to us both before you mentioned it).  

Back to the topical point; you referred to the "so-called word of god" in your response.  Was this characterization indicative of the dubious nature of that source reference?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 07:06:31 pm by falcon9 »
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

teflonfanatic

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2011, 07:02:37 pm »
Let me try to explain why there's "no proof" in atheist mentally...

The so-called word of God said magic(miracles) will cease to exist among it's followers therefore God made it impossible for me(the thickheaded know-it-all 12th level intellect) for me to take him seriously?


Since the "proof" reference is to a dubious source, (unverified hearsay), it does not constitute evidence.


Any objection Falconor and his cousin/son or whatever Falcon9?


In addition to the "objection", (dissent based on lack of substantive evidence), I'm completely unrelated to Falconeer02.  The screen name/'nym used on FC is loosely-based on the general habits of falcons.  Whereas I can only guess that, because falconeers handle falcons, an unwarranted connection was made, (which, I assure you, has occurred to us both before you mentioned it).  

Back to the topical point; you referred to the "so-called word of god" in your response.  Was this characterization indicative of the dubious nature of that sorce reference?iated(yes I mispleed that)

I wasn't at all trying to substantiate a book of little books(bible), I was explaining using atheist mentality why it can't be substantiated...

falcon9

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2011, 07:04:35 pm »
I wasn't at all trying to substantiate a book of little books(bible), I was explaining using atheist mentality why it can't be substiant



That wasn't clearly conveyed by your reply.  Perhaps you could clarify why it constitutes "using atheist mentality"?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

teflonfanatic

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2011, 07:54:05 pm »
I wasn't at all trying to substantiate a book of little books(bible), I was explaining using atheist mentality why it can't be substiant



That wasn't clearly conveyed by your reply.  Perhaps you could clarify why it constitutes "using atheist mentality"?

Explaining why it can't be substianted by insulting it and being puffed up with pride(12th level intellect comment),

falcon9

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2011, 08:24:13 pm »
Explaining why it can't be substianted by insulting it and being puffed up with pride(12th level intellect comment)



If the lack of substantiation is characterized as "insulting it", then that same lack is insulting to reasoning.  Adding the "puffed up with pride" unsupported opinion to that is extraneous.  The question was whether or not the "bible", (in any variation), is a credible source, (that is, is it supported by conclusive substantiation?).  Since it has remained inconclusive speculation which lacks substantive evidence since the day it was compiled, it cannot be considered as a credible source.  Being 'insulted' by such a reasonable conclusion has no bearing on the logic involved in reaching it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 08:33:46 pm by falcon9 »
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

teflonfanatic

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2011, 10:04:43 am »
Explaining why it can't be substianted by insulting it and being puffed up with pride(12th level intellect comment)



If the lack of substantiation is characterized as "insulting it", then that same lack is insulting to reasoning.  Adding the "puffed up with pride" unsupported opinion to that is extraneous.  The question was whether or not the "bible", (in any variation), is a credible source, (that is, is it supported by conclusive substantiation?).  Since it has remained inconclusive speculation which lacks substantive evidence since the day it was compiled, it cannot be considered as a credible source.  Being 'insulted' by such a reasonable conclusion has no bearing on the logic involved in reaching it.

This thread is not about substianting the bible but rather explaining why it can't be substianted...

falcon9

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Re: The Proof You Seek
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 11:31:33 am »
This thread is not about substianting the bible but rather explaining why it can't be substianted...



Actually, the OP made it clear that the 'non-proof' relies solely upon "faith", (a lack of substantiation).  The reason that it cannot be substantiated is due to the lack of conclusively attributed evidence on the part of the claimaints that the "bible" constitutes "proof".
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 01:49:05 am by falcon9 »
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

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