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Topic: Dumbing-down or wising-up?  (Read 14829 times)

falcon9

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2012, 05:16:49 pm »
Well according to my Nations creation stories, it was indeed a very long trip.....no elephants cobras or any of that, just a bit of space travel ;)

Anasazi Pueblo ancestors?

No, I am Tsalagi, although I do live among the Pueblos now.....Taos Pueblo being the nearest...about 12 miles or so.

That's probably different than the Cherokee creation myth commonly-known to us 'white-eyes', (unless Tsalagi isn't a Cherokee tribe as I'd previously thought).
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

walksalone11

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2012, 05:26:57 pm »
Well according to my Nations creation stories, it was indeed a very long trip.....no elephants cobras or any of that, just a bit of space travel ;)

Anasazi Pueblo ancestors?

No, I am Tsalagi, although I do live among the Pueblos now.....Taos Pueblo being the nearest...about 12 miles or so.

That's probably different than the Cherokee creation myth commonly-known to us 'white-eyes', (unless Tsalagi isn't a Cherokee tribe as I'd previously thought).
Cherokee is correct. That name is widely accepted by the Nations but I just have a personal issue with it. Chip on my shoulder I guess you would say and as I have been accused of in here in the past. Actually our language has no "r" based sounds so it is said that we pronounce it Tsalagi which is pronounced Cha-luh-gee in the Giduwa (eastern band) dialect and Cha-luh-gay in the Otali dialect which is most common in Oklahoma. Another version of the story is that back in the day some European asked a member of the Muskogee (Creek) Nation who we were and they said Tsalagi but the Euro. had difficulty pronouncing it and it became corrupted into Cherokee. I figure I will stick with the traditional pronounciation not needing some "non" telling me what to call myself.

falcon9

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2012, 05:31:28 pm »
Cherokee is correct. That name is widely accepted by the Nations but I just have a personal issue with it. Chip on my shoulder I guess you would say and as I have been accused of in here in the past. Actually our language has no "r" based sounds so it is said that we pronounce it Tsalagi which is pronounced Cha-luh-gee in the Giduwa (eastern band) dialect and Cha-luh-gay in the Otali dialect which is most common in Oklahoma. Another version of the story is that back in the day some European asked a member of the Muskogee (Creek) Nation who we were and they said Tsalagi but the Euro. had difficulty pronouncing it and it became corrupted into Cherokee. I figure I will stick with the traditional pronounciation not needing some "non" telling me what to call myself.

I can see where the pronounciation of "Tsalagi" became warped in "Cherokee" from your description of events.  So, I'm still unable to determine if the Tsalagi creation story is equivalent to or, varies from the Cherokee version.
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

walksalone11

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2012, 05:36:48 pm »
Cherokee is correct. That name is widely accepted by the Nations but I just have a personal issue with it. Chip on my shoulder I guess you would say and as I have been accused of in here in the past. Actually our language has no "r" based sounds so it is said that we pronounce it Tsalagi which is pronounced Cha-luh-gee in the Giduwa (eastern band) dialect and Cha-luh-gay in the Otali dialect which is most common in Oklahoma. Another version of the story is that back in the day some European asked a member of the Muskogee (Creek) Nation who we were and they said Tsalagi but the Euro. had difficulty pronouncing it and it became corrupted into Cherokee. I figure I will stick with the traditional pronounciation not needing some "non" telling me what to call myself.

I can see where the pronounciation of "Tsalagi" became warped in "Cherokee" from your description of events.  So, I'm still unable to determine if the Tsalagi creation story is equivalent to or, varies from the Cherokee version.
It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

falcon9

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 05:46:53 pm »
It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

That might be similar to some Anasazi creation stories which I'm aware of, or not.  It's understandable that you'd prefer not to discuss them publically, (although you did bring it up initially *chuckle*).  I was mainly curious from a 'comparative myth' perspective, (in that these are not considered to be 'myth' by those who believe in them).  It's difficult to discuss specifics when only generalities are available however, I'm going to defer this preference to you since your creation story isn't as widely-known as some others, (out of a respect for privacy).
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

walksalone11

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2012, 05:59:49 pm »
It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

That might be similar to some Anasazi creation stories which I'm aware of, or not.  It's understandable that you'd prefer not to discuss them publically, (although you did bring it up initially *chuckle*).  I was mainly curious from a 'comparative myth' perspective, (in that these are not considered to be 'myth' by those who believe in them).  It's difficult to discuss specifics when only generalities are available however, I'm going to defer this preference to you since your creation story isn't as widely-known as some others, (out of a respect for privacy).
Thank you.

Yes I did vaguely refer to it lol.

As you are well aware, many people are not as diligent as yourself in striving to gather true facts.
Many times less scrupulous people will get on some ego trip after hearing some tid bits of something and then make up huge elaborate stories to add to them, thinking it makes them look intelligent.

This has the result of much mis-information.

There are many many people with legit Native ancestry who were never around the culture but are trying to find their way back. They hear these bogus stories and believe them, then retell them. Now you have authentic NDNs spreading these stories and repping them as legit.

Many people say that the way to preserving our culture is to share it. Many of us have a different stance on that. I am not against sharing, just that I am very careful in where and to whom I do speak on these things with, as my way of attempting protect them.

In my view, when/if the authentic culture is lost, then assimilation will be complete, resulting in there being no more NDNs ever....we will all then simply be Americans.

duroz

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2012, 07:45:44 pm »
Whoa!!! For being a serious guy (or a BIG MEANIE mean guy), you're making an awful LOT of funnies here....

You're going to have to rebuild your reputation if you're not careful! ::)  

Bah he is not mean. He is direct. Using words as weapons......

I enjoy reading your posts falcon9. :wave:. I dont think you are mean.......

For crying out LOUD......you people can't POSSIBLY think I was really calling him MEAN....I was poking fun at him, and HE was well aware of that (although he COULD have spoken up in my defense here.  >:( .  Bad dog.)

Anyway, the fact that I was JOKING was rather OBVIOUS, so kindly give this "He's not mean" line a rest.

After my "rant", I want to say that I really enjoyed reading your conversation here, walksalone11 and falcon9, it was both interesting and informative (or maybe enlightening would be a better word). 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 07:56:11 pm by duroz »
                    
How come it won't play?

falcon9

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2012, 08:56:10 pm »
Whoa!!! For being a serious guy (or a BIG MEANIE mean guy), you're making an awful LOT of funnies here....

You're going to have to rebuild your reputation if you're not careful! ::)  

Bah he is not mean. He is direct. Using words as weapons......

I enjoy reading your posts falcon9. :wave:. I dont think you are mean.......

For crying out LOUD......you people can't POSSIBLY think I was really calling him MEAN....I was poking fun at him, and HE was well aware of that (although he COULD have spoken up in my defense here.  >:( .  Bad dog.)

Anyway, the fact that I was JOKING was rather OBVIOUS, so kindly give this "He's not mean" line a rest.

Along the lines of _not_ dumbing-down my replies, the one I made to you, ('There is nothing to fear, not even fear itself, (phobophobia).  ;D' ), may have been too subtle to indicate that I was aware that you were joking.  Beyond that, I'd estimated that the ones you may have thought were referring to your joke had actually meant others.  Of course, that estimation may have been off the mark.  Innocent until demonstrated to be guilty? If it was/wasn't/seems like fun, the offending parties can be tased at an unknown future point.  That means you too, (unless you're settled down by now ... or, if I determine that it'd be fun to tase ya either way ... ) :bootyshake:


After my "rant", I want to say that I really enjoyed reading your conversation here, walksalone11 and falcon9, it was both interesting and informative (or maybe enlightening would be a better word).  

The tangential conversation caught my interest too, even if things were left vague.  That's how it goes sometimes, now how do you really feel concerning either 'dumbing-down' or, 'wising-up'?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

falcon9

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2012, 09:07:30 pm »
It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

That might be similar to some Anasazi creation stories which I'm aware of, or not.  It's understandable that you'd prefer not to discuss them publically, (although you did bring it up initially *chuckle*).  I was mainly curious from a 'comparative myth' perspective, (in that these are not considered to be 'myth' by those who believe in them).  It's difficult to discuss specifics when only generalities are available however, I'm going to defer this preference to you since your creation story isn't as widely-known as some others, (out of a respect for privacy).

Thank you.
Yes I did vaguely refer to it lol.

As you are well aware, many people are not as diligent as yourself in striving to gather true facts.
Many times less scrupulous people will get on some ego trip after hearing some tid bits of something and then make up huge elaborate stories to add to them, thinking it makes them look intelligent.

This has the result of much mis-information.

There are many many people with legit Native ancestry who were never around the culture but are trying to find their way back. They hear these bogus stories and believe them, then retell them. Now you have authentic NDNs spreading these stories and repping them as legit.

Many people say that the way to preserving our culture is to share it. Many of us have a different stance on that. I am not against sharing, just that I am very careful in where and to whom I do speak on these things with, as my way of attempting protect them.

In my view, when/if the authentic culture is lost, then assimilation will be complete, resulting in there being no more NDNs ever....we will all then simply be Americans.

Assuming that much tradition is passed-down orally and that you're aware of the "telephone game" young people have played, (whisper something in one ear and pass it along to the next ear and so on until at least nine people have participated ... the 9th person then says whatever it was aloud - which must be a long sentence/question).  If these assumptions apply, would you estimate that some elements may have already been lost/mis-spoken over such a long period of oral-traditions?
One can lead a horse to water however, if one holds the horse's head under, that horse will drown.

             

Cuppycake

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2012, 07:54:45 am »
It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

That might be similar to some Anasazi creation stories which I'm aware of, or not.  It's understandable that you'd prefer not to discuss them publically, (although you did bring it up initially *chuckle*).  I was mainly curious from a 'comparative myth' perspective, (in that these are not considered to be 'myth' by those who believe in them).  It's difficult to discuss specifics when only generalities are available however, I'm going to defer this preference to you since your creation story isn't as widely-known as some others, (out of a respect for privacy).
Thank you.

Yes I did vaguely refer to it lol.

As you are well aware, many people are not as diligent as yourself in striving to gather true facts.
Many times less scrupulous people will get on some ego trip after hearing some tid bits of something and then make up huge elaborate stories to add to them, thinking it makes them look intelligent.

This has the result of much mis-information.

There are many many people with legit Native ancestry who were never around the culture but are trying to find their way back. They hear these bogus stories and believe them, then retell them. Now you have authentic NDNs spreading these stories and repping them as legit.

Many people say that the way to preserving our culture is to share it. Many of us have a different stance on that. I am not against sharing, just that I am very careful in where and to whom I do speak on these things with, as my way of attempting protect them.

In my view, when/if the authentic culture is lost, then assimilation will be complete, resulting in there being no more NDNs ever....we will all then simply be Americans.

I regret to say I do not know much about my Choctaw Indian family. I do know they are responsible for the use of filé powder (sassafras) in gumbo. I think I was more influenced by the Cajun-French culture around me growing up then by my actual family and it shows in my cooking. I do use filé powder instead of okra in my gumbo though !

Cuppycake

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2012, 07:55:24 am »
Whoa!!! For being a serious guy (or a BIG MEANIE mean guy), you're making an awful LOT of funnies here....

You're going to have to rebuild your reputation if you're not careful! ::)  

Bah he is not mean. He is direct. Using words as weapons......

I enjoy reading your posts falcon9. :wave:. I dont think you are mean.......

For crying out LOUD......you people can't POSSIBLY think I was really calling him MEAN....I was poking fun at him, and HE was well aware of that (although he COULD have spoken up in my defense here.  >:( .  Bad dog.)

Anyway, the fact that I was JOKING was rather OBVIOUS, so kindly give this "He's not mean" line a rest.

After my "rant", I want to say that I really enjoyed reading your conversation here, walksalone11 and falcon9, it was both interesting and informative (or maybe enlightening would be a better word). 

No I didn't think you were !

walksalone11

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2012, 08:35:17 am »
It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

That might be similar to some Anasazi creation stories which I'm aware of, or not.  It's understandable that you'd prefer not to discuss them publically, (although you did bring it up initially *chuckle*).  I was mainly curious from a 'comparative myth' perspective, (in that these are not considered to be 'myth' by those who believe in them).  It's difficult to discuss specifics when only generalities are available however, I'm going to defer this preference to you since your creation story isn't as widely-known as some others, (out of a respect for privacy).

Thank you.
Yes I did vaguely refer to it lol.

As you are well aware, many people are not as diligent as yourself in striving to gather true facts.
Many times less scrupulous people will get on some ego trip after hearing some tid bits of something and then make up huge elaborate stories to add to them, thinking it makes them look intelligent.

This has the result of much mis-information.

There are many many people with legit Native ancestry who were never around the culture but are trying to find their way back. They hear these bogus stories and believe them, then retell them. Now you have authentic NDNs spreading these stories and repping them as legit.

Many people say that the way to preserving our culture is to share it. Many of us have a different stance on that. I am not against sharing, just that I am very careful in where and to whom I do speak on these things with, as my way of attempting protect them.

In my view, when/if the authentic culture is lost, then assimilation will be complete, resulting in there being no more NDNs ever....we will all then simply be Americans.

Assuming that much tradition is passed-down orally and that you're aware of the "telephone game" young people have played, (whisper something in one ear and pass it along to the next ear and so on until at least nine people have participated ... the 9th person then says whatever it was aloud - which must be a long sentence/question).  If these assumptions apply, would you estimate that some elements may have already been lost/mis-spoken over such a long period of oral-traditions?
There are certain tribal members, of my Nation, that are tasked with learning, memorizing and telling of stories that have been passed down for many generations. Stories often include names of specific Ancestors as well as place settings that are local and usually very familiar. This gives the effect of being much more familiar on a personal level,to said Ancestor then would happen if a more vague reference was mentioned. This is one of the reasons being relocated is such a tragic event. Along with the belief that a persons spirit can not rest unless being buried in the soil made up by the remains of the Ancestors.

Story keepers are allowed license to add to the stories so in answer to your question, yes it would be possible that some bits have been lost along the way, however, in most instances, it isn't extreamly likely. Reason being is that when one is learning the stories they are not allowed to tell them until they have memorized them to the satisfaction of their mentor. Not to say that it never happens.

Getting back to our connection with our environment, we hold the belief that every thing is cyclical. Meaning enter connected and moving in a never ending cycle. We are conceived as the result of biological substances of our parents. It is what we are made of, therefore, we are in reality a part of our parents and in turn all of their forbears. We get our sustenance from products of the soil, which is made up of, and nourished by, the remains of our Ancestors. Thereby re-enforcing the connection in that way. It takes the sun, soil and water to nourish plants, which in turn nourish us as well as the fourlegged and other of our Relatives, which we also partake of. When we harvest any food item we are taught to not only always give thanks but also to give something in return, which may be some sacred offering and/or returning any by products which we don't consume in some way, back to the soil. So we see that all of these things are connected and very necessary to each of our survival. We believe that every organism has some important function so is for that reason sacred and not to be disrespected or attempts made to harm them. That said, I will mash every fly I can in my home lol.

Anyway, this is straying a bit far from your question so I will stop here. Perhaps someone, will get a little something from my musing.....

walksalone11

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2012, 08:44:12 am »
It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

That might be similar to some Anasazi creation stories which I'm aware of, or not.  It's understandable that you'd prefer not to discuss them publically, (although you did bring it up initially *chuckle*).  I was mainly curious from a 'comparative myth' perspective, (in that these are not considered to be 'myth' by those who believe in them).  It's difficult to discuss specifics when only generalities are available however, I'm going to defer this preference to you since your creation story isn't as widely-known as some others, (out of a respect for privacy).
Thank you.

Yes I did vaguely refer to it lol.

As you are well aware, many people are not as diligent as yourself in striving to gather true facts.
Many times less scrupulous people will get on some ego trip after hearing some tid bits of something and then make up huge elaborate stories to add to them, thinking it makes them look intelligent.

This has the result of much mis-information.

There are many many people with legit Native ancestry who were never around the culture but are trying to find their way back. They hear these bogus stories and believe them, then retell them. Now you have authentic NDNs spreading these stories and repping them as legit.

Many people say that the way to preserving our culture is to share it. Many of us have a different stance on that. I am not against sharing, just that I am very careful in where and to whom I do speak on these things with, as my way of attempting protect them.

In my view, when/if the authentic culture is lost, then assimilation will be complete, resulting in there being no more NDNs ever....we will all then simply be Americans.

I regret to say I do not know much about my Choctaw Indian family. I do know they are responsible for the use of filé powder (sassafras) in gumbo. I think I was more influenced by the Cajun-French culture around me growing up then by my actual family and it shows in my cooking. I do use filé powder instead of okra in my gumbo though !
sassafrass or as we know it, kastaste or kanasdatsi, was the first wild plant that I was taught of, by my Mother. It was traditionally used for treating bronchitis, in a poultice for sore eyes, in drinks along with pine bark for endurance etc.
My family used it as a spring tonic. I just love the taste of the tea and try to keep a supply on hand. Back east I would harvest it myself but since moving west I am forced to order it from a friend who is an herb dealer. I generally get around 2 or 3 pounds at a time. I drink it often as well as gift it to others.

If I may ask, are your Relatives of the Oklahoma Choctaw, or the Mississippi band? I may know some of them or atleast be able to put you in touch with someone from your Nation, if you would like.

Barbaralynne

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2012, 08:58:01 am »
Dumbing-down or wising-up?

My thought(s) would be "pot luck"...    

This is a forum.  No one in here is perfect.  No one in here knows EVERYTHING.  Every single person in this forum knows at least one thing that someone else does not, everyone "brings something different to the table".      

Everyone is free to contribute and share, and may discover new friendships but insults, criticisms, name-calling, "calling-outs", etc.  are probably going to result in "food-fights".



@duroz---your post above, nicely done! :thumbsup:

Cuppycake

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Re: Dumbing-down or wising-up?
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2012, 09:04:17 am »
It would depend on what story you are referencing. There are several of our own and many more falsely attributed to us. I generally don't speak much publicly on these types of things and I could get into the why's although it would be a bit of a lengthy explanation, however, the story I am speaking of tells of ancients coming coming here from "the Sky Vault" which means basically from some where in space.

That might be similar to some Anasazi creation stories which I'm aware of, or not.  It's understandable that you'd prefer not to discuss them publically, (although you did bring it up initially *chuckle*).  I was mainly curious from a 'comparative myth' perspective, (in that these are not considered to be 'myth' by those who believe in them).  It's difficult to discuss specifics when only generalities are available however, I'm going to defer this preference to you since your creation story isn't as widely-known as some others, (out of a respect for privacy).
Thank you.

Yes I did vaguely refer to it lol.

As you are well aware, many people are not as diligent as yourself in striving to gather true facts.
Many times less scrupulous people will get on some ego trip after hearing some tid bits of something and then make up huge elaborate stories to add to them, thinking it makes them look intelligent.

This has the result of much mis-information.

There are many many people with legit Native ancestry who were never around the culture but are trying to find their way back. They hear these bogus stories and believe them, then retell them. Now you have authentic NDNs spreading these stories and repping them as legit.

Many people say that the way to preserving our culture is to share it. Many of us have a different stance on that. I am not against sharing, just that I am very careful in where and to whom I do speak on these things with, as my way of attempting protect them.

In my view, when/if the authentic culture is lost, then assimilation will be complete, resulting in there being no more NDNs ever....we will all then simply be Americans.

I regret to say I do not know much about my Choctaw Indian family. I do know they are responsible for the use of filé powder (sassafras) in gumbo. I think I was more influenced by the Cajun-French culture around me growing up then by my actual family and it shows in my cooking. I do use filé powder instead of okra in my gumbo though !
sassafrass or as we know it, kastaste or kanasdatsi, was the first wild plant that I was taught of, by my Mother. It was traditionally used for treating bronchitis, in a poultice for sore eyes, in drinks along with pine bark for endurance etc.
My family used it as a spring tonic. I just love the taste of the tea and try to keep a supply on hand. Back east I would harvest it myself but since moving west I am forced to order it from a friend who is an herb dealer. I generally get around 2 or 3 pounds at a time. I drink it often as well as gift it to others.

If I may ask, are your Relatives of the Oklahoma Choctaw, or the Mississippi band? I may know some of them or atleast be able to put you in touch with someone from your Nation, if you would like.
I have never had it as a tea. I think I would like that ! Mississippi. :) I grew up on the coast. My uncle has all the information for them but I moved to Atlanta and haven't seen him in a long while.  You are an awesome person !

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