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Topic: Are you a good person according to God's standards? Good Enough To Go To...  (Read 4239 times)

Annella

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So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?

Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN

"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses).  Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7.  It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."

I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved?  Righteous overmuch?

Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!

Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.

The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.

More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

You are throwing out scriptures or portions of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other, and confusing the issue being discussed.  God is NOT the author of confusion.  Scripture interprets scripture and the Word flows together.

Many times, God spoke of His humanity (Jesus) or His diety (God).  Sometimes He spoke of both in some scriptures, and sometimes His diety, humanity, and Spirit (Holy Ghost).

In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray.  He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would).  He is God in the midst of them and not man.  He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises.

Now.....get your Bible and read the 7th Chapter of Revelations.  The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, and it lists all 12 tribes, and there were 12,000 taken from each tribe.  These are full Jews (Children of Israel). Now....look at:

Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.  And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So lets recap shall we:

1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb

These were mentioned AFTER the 144,000 were sealed.  This is a multitude without number.  The redeemed.

Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?

We are grafted into the covenant of the Jews promise when we are redeemed (saved).  We are the Children of Abraham by redemption.  However, we are gentiles, grafted into the true vine......not Jewish.  There are feasts, cove
nants, and recognitions of such that the Jews are ordered to remember forever (Passover). We as gentiles are not. Circumcision was a covenant that God made with the Hebrew children.  It was a type and shadow now of the redeemed, and being circumcised of the heart. There are many types and shadows of the of the Old Testament, that point to Jesus, and the Salvation plan.  However, I'm a gentile, not a Jew.  Amy is Jewish.  She was born Jewish. Our redemption grafts us into the promises and covenants, but we are not by flesh...Jews.

Once saved, always saved?  I don't think so:  Where in the Bible does it say that?  In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite.  You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.

Heres a scripture for you if you don't think God was not a man,  He was Jesus!

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two).  We can do that.  However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.  

Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings?  Righteous overmuch?  What do you mean by that?  Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT".  I did not scream anything.  Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't.  I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life.  I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist.  Would you like to compare credentials.  Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge.  I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world.  That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.[/quote]

Quote
Quotes i'm responding to are numbered in order you said them.

1. "In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray.  He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would).  He is God in the midst of them and not man.  He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises."

Thank you for the context of the verse but he's still saying he's not a man.

2. Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.  And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So lets recap shall we:

1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb

Right but these are after the 144K, that are bought from the earth or sealed as Revelation 7:4 reads

Revelation 14:1-5 makes it clear that the 144K are bought from the earth and are the first fruits of mankind.

14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

The ones that are not of the 144K the other sheep are of the earth, these are the ones that are going to reside on it forever. The verse below is a prophecy(I checked the context)

Psalms 37:29 reads 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

Although it says land in KJ, verses 27 and 28 imply an unlimited time, who possesses a land forever?

3. Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?

Just quoting so I can explain it easier and for emphasis

 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

To show you that the 144K are from all of mankind and not just Hebrews/Israelites, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but no one has been proven by science to be apart of the line of Jesus(that is Hebrew/Israelite) which is the same as being a fleshly Jew(literal Jew) but you can be a spirituality Jewish even though someone is a gentile as I already pointed out in my previous post. Hebrews/Israelites are one people, their not part of the native american tribes, they don't speak Icelandic though it might have been possible during pentecost  :-, Hebrews/Israelites are not hawaiian and they didn't have a nation God didn't approve of(unless they sinned), I can go on and on but I think you get the point. This also corresponds to Revelation 14 because only the 144K are mentioned to be singing a new song and they are also the only ones mentioned to rule as kings over the earth.

This is in harmony with Matthew 22:28-30 28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.


For one thing, we are not talking about who is going to rule the earth.  We are not talking about the proof of trinity over one God either.  However, I addressed this in another thread myself.   Either stay on topic, or you can debate this by yourself.  I've conversed with JW's before, and you all like to confuse the topic with throwing out a bunch of scriptures that don't even pertain to the topic.  It does not lend credence to your side of debate, it only confuses the issue, which I believe you do deliberately.

I wrote down clear and concise scriptures on the 144,000.  You either believe it or not.  I gave proof (in scripture) of the 12 tribes of Israel (are Jews and nobody else), and the 12,000 are taken from each tribe, to total 144,000.  I also pinpointed the redeemed, who is the multitude without number. ALL is in the 7th Chapter of Revelation.

Now.....if you don't believe what the Bible says, then we have nothing to discuss.  What I do see here is you are pulling all kinds of scripture into this that have NOTHING to do with what we are discussing.  

Your scripture you threw out there In Matthew 22:28-30, is NOT in harmony at all with what we are discussing (your words above)  It is about a woman marrying and her husbands dying, and who's wife shall she be in the resurrection.....on and on.  Clearly not what we are talking about!!!!

What are the scriptures about possessing the earth?  What has that got to do with the 144,000?  We are not talking about possessing the earth.  That is a total different study and subject altogether.

What in the world does Psalms 37:29 have to do with what we are talking about?  Yes, it says that the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever.  So ???

Since you cannot seem to stay on topic, but are throwing in scriptures here and there that have nothing to do with what we are talking about, I don't have time for games like this.  It's like you are snarling the subject up as much as possible, and trying to hide the true meaning under a bunch of scriptures that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

In Genesis Chapter 49, it tells of the twelve tribe of Israel.
1. Rueben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Zebulun
6. Issachar
7. Dan
8. Gad
9. Asher
10. Naphtali
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin

All Hebrew Children..........

Revelation Chapter 7: 4-8
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
 All the tribes are mentioned in this Chapter of being sealed. Twelve thousand from each tribe.

Another scripture you quoted: In Rev 14:1-5  Yes, they are from the earth, and they are the firstfruits, they have not defiled themselves with women, which lends to them being male, virgins point to them being young. Maybe even the unborn, or children.  Doesn't remove the fact that they are still Jews.

Firstfruits: according to Strongs Concordance (Rev. 14:4) definition in the Old Greek (536):
     aparche, ap-ar-khayd'; from a compound or 575 and 576; a beginning of sacrifice, i.e. the (Jewish) first-
     fruit (fig.) first-fruits (copied verbatim from Concordance Greek definition of firstfruits)

What makes you think that the 144,000, and the righteous are the only ones on earth during the 1,000 year reign or years of peace where the Lion lays down with the lamb, etc. etc?  This is the time when satan is bound for 1,000 years, and life continues on earth in peace. Jesus, and his redeemed will rule and reign with him.  There are still people left on the earth.  The earth doesn't get destroyed until after the devil has been loosed and there is the war to end all wars.  Then there is a new Heaven and new Earth.
 
However, this is off topic.


    

« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 02:44:42 pm by Annella »


amyrouse

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Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist.  I celebrate the differences in people.  Just wanted to clarify that for you.  I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.

For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile.  By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT.  I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith.  When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted.  I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability.  I hope this makes sense.

Not really......

Is not Jewish being Hebrew?  Being Jewish is a race is it not?  So you are saying that if I was born Jewish, but got a revelation that Jesus was actually the Messiah, I would not be considered Jewish anymore?  In other words, I would be shunned by my Jewish family and friends?  I have heard of this happening.

What I understand you saying....but I could be wrong.  That in order to be viewed as Jewish, I need to follow Judaism only?  My race is white (caucasian), but I'm a Christian.  Just because I'm a Christian, does not change my race of still being white.

Anybody who is Christian believes in both the OT and NT.  They would not be Christian otherwise. Christians are those who heard the Salvation message and acted on it.  Believing on, and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount to being Christian, and obtaining forgiveness/remission of sins, redemption, and renewing. All needed to enter Heaven.

If you actually believe all the other books (including the Bible) like the Koran, etc., you would have nothing but contradiction and confusion.  As far as Eve eating the forbidden fruit, it was not a positive act that we need to preserve it or honor it in anyway.  It's a lesson in the downfall, and the start of sinful nature in man.  through  the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all born in sinful flesh.

Your race is your race regardless of your faith.  If you claim to be of the Jewish faith, though, you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.  I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept.  "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" are not of the Jewish faith but Christians because they believe Jesus was the Messiah.  People who practice Judaism do not.  Its all in the link I posted.

I didn't say I actually believed all the other books, just that I read and study them.  I thought my statement was clear when I addressed Jcribb saying that I only profess one faith.  Just because one reads other books doesn't mean they follow that line of thinking.  I read all four Twilight books, but that doesn't mean I believe vampires are real or that Edward Cullen was a dreamboat.

We have already determined that we don't agree on the meaning behind the act of Eve eating the apple.  I can't help but wonder if you are just trying to pick a fight with me here, Annella.   :BangHead:



Annella

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Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist.  I celebrate the differences in people.  Just wanted to clarify that for you.  I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.

For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile.  By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT.  I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith.  When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted.  I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability.  I hope this makes sense.

Not really......

Is not Jewish being Hebrew?  Being Jewish is a race is it not?  So you are saying that if I was born Jewish, but got a revelation that Jesus was actually the Messiah, I would not be considered Jewish anymore?  In other words, I would be shunned by my Jewish family and friends?  I have heard of this happening.

What I understand you saying....but I could be wrong.  That in order to be viewed as Jewish, I need to follow Judaism only?  My race is white (caucasian), but I'm a Christian.  Just because I'm a Christian, does not change my race of still being white.

Anybody who is Christian believes in both the OT and NT.  They would not be Christian otherwise. Christians are those who heard the Salvation message and acted on it.  Believing on, and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount to being Christian, and obtaining forgiveness/remission of sins, redemption, and renewing. All needed to enter Heaven.

If you actually believe all the other books (including the Bible) like the Koran, etc., you would have nothing but contradiction and confusion.  As far as Eve eating the forbidden fruit, it was not a positive act that we need to preserve it or honor it in anyway.  It's a lesson in the downfall, and the start of sinful nature in man.  through  the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all born in sinful flesh.

Your race is your race regardless of your faith.  If you claim to be of the Jewish faith, though, you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.  I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept.  "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" are not of the Jewish faith but Christians because they believe Jesus was the Messiah.  People who practice Judaism do not.  Its all in the link I posted.

I didn't say I actually believed all the other books, just that I read and study them.  I thought my statement was clear when I addressed Jcribb saying that I only profess one faith.  Just because one reads other books doesn't mean they follow that line of thinking.  I read all four Twilight books, but that doesn't mean I believe vampires are real or that Edward Cullen was a dreamboat.

We have already determined that we don't agree on the meaning behind the act of Eve eating the apple.  I can't help but wonder if you are just trying to pick a fight with me here, Annella.   :BangHead:

No Amy I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your statement was not clear to me.  Don't make this personal because it isn't.  Your correct, we don't agree on a lot of things by far.  However, I really (truthfully) did not understand what you were implying in your post.

Willie353

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The bible tells us that ther is none righteous no not one that includes me too. We could never be good enough to go to heaven that is why jesus camde to give us a ticket to heaven :notworthy:

jcribb16

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The bible tells us that ther is none righteous no not one that includes me too. We could never be good enough to go to heaven that is why jesus camde to give us a ticket to heaven :notworthy:

 :thumbsup:

teflonfanatic

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My answer to your response are in the order you said them. responses 1-7 are here this is a response to ANNELA just in case someone was wondering who I was talking to or if someone continues the conversation that's NOT ANNELA they'll know who I was talking to.

1. For one thing, we are not talking about who is going to rule the earth.  We are not talking about the proof of trinity over one God either.  However, I addressed this in another thread myself.   Either stay on topic, or you can debate this by yourself.  I've conversed with JW's before, and you all like to confuse the topic with throwing out a bunch of scriptures that don't even pertain to the topic.  It does not lend credence to your side of debate, it only confuses the issue, which I believe you do deliberately.

The ones that rule the earth are the ones that go to heaven(they co-rule with christ), you the one who posted the trin proof text not me, I just posted a link about most of them , I think the problem is your continuing a conversation I had with Amy so it's naturally a little crazy and at times off-topic, the God being a man was an example to Amy to show her if the bible says something and I quote what it says i'm not judging the bible is. Admittedly staying on topic is a serious fault with me, it's not an issue about using the bible correctly or even the JW's themselves i've always been like that even if i'm not talking about the bible, I can just be in a normal conversation and still be off-topic. Also i'm not trying to confuse or go off-topic believe it or not, maybe I should explainn why I choose the scriptures in my post instead of just letting the reader figure it out for themselves?  ??? I'm working on it  :'(

2. I wrote down clear and concise scriptures on the 144,000.  You either believe it or not.  I gave proof (in scripture) of the 12 tribes of Israel (are Jews and nobody else), and the 12,000 are taken from each tribe, to total 144,000.  I also pinpointed the redeemed, who is the multitude without number. ALL is in the 7th Chapter of Revelation.

Actually you wrote down one set of scriptures on the 144K and then you wrote about the ones with no number.  There are scriptures about the 144K and theres scriptures about the great crowd of multitude who is on earth(they don't rule with Christ or sing the new song.) I gave you clear scripture showing that they can't all be literal Jews but instead spiritual Jews that's why I showed you Revelation 5:9-10 and then I explained how they can't all be literal which i'll post again shortly. My point is if all good people are in heaven(that is after God chooses who is good or not) then the 144K and Jesus have no one to rule over on earth. I have no issues with Revelation 7 and I do believe it all, is the standing before God mean they are in heaven? Tell me if you think that or not and i'll explain my interpretation of that.  Anyway here's my quote and response, now that you know why I choose the verse which IS talking about the 144K(or at least I hope you know  :'(  )

 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

To show you that the 144K are from all of mankind and not just Hebrews/Israelites, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but no one has been proven by science to be apart of the line of Jesus(that is Hebrew/Israelite) which is the same as being a fleshly Jew(literal Jew) but you can be a spirituality Jewish even though someone is a gentile as I already pointed out in my previous post. Hebrews/Israelites are one people, their not part of the native american tribes, they don't speak Icelandic though it might have been possible during pentecost  :-, Hebrews/Israelites are not hawaiian and they didn't have a nation God didn't approve of(unless they sinned), I can go on and on but I think you get the point. This also corresponds to Revelation 14 because only the 144K are mentioned to be singing a new song and they are also the only ones mentioned to rule as kings over the earth.

3. Your scripture you threw out there In Matthew 22:28-30, is NOT in harmony at all with what we are discussing (your words above)  It is about a woman marrying and her husbands dying, and who's wife shall she be in the resurrection.....on and on.  Clearly not what we are talking about!!!!

Your right i'm srry I that I cited it wrong the scripture below talks about those co-ruling with Christ yes Jehovah(the father) and Jesus are NOT the only ones sitting on thrones during the 1,000 year reign, it also uses the 12 tribes of Israel in a figurative sense, possibly Israel in a spiritual sense and not literal sense.

The scripture is Matthew 19:28-29(I quadruple checked this time) and it says 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU, In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life.


4. What in the world does Psalms 37:29 have to do with what we are talking about?  Yes, it says that the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever.  So ???

Those are the ones who are going to be on Earth and not on heaven those are the multitude who will NOT rule the Earth(co-rule with Christ in heaven, the ones in heaven are to be kings with Christ)

5.  In Genesis Chapter 49, it tells of the twelve tribe of Israel.
1. Rueben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Zebulun
6. Issachar
7. Dan
8. Gad
9. Asher
10. Naphtali
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin

All Hebrew Children..........

Revelation Chapter 7: 4-8
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
 All the tribes are mentioned in this Chapter of being sealed. Twelve thousand from each tribe.

Take another look at the tribe listings they're different. Possibly to show the same order but not literally the same tribes?


6.  Another scripture you quoted: In Rev 14:1-5  Yes, they are from the earth, and they are the firstfruits, they have not defiled themselves with women, which lends to them being male, virgins point to them being young. Maybe even the unborn, or children.  Doesn't remove the fact that they are still Jews.

They are not just from Earth they are bought from earth and they co-rule with Christ(Kings of the earth or Lords of the earth), i'm saying they co-rule with your God the SON in heaven!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7.  What makes you think that the 144,000, and the righteous are the only ones on earth during the 1,000 year reign or years of peace where the Lion lays down with the lamb, etc. etc?  This is the time when satan is bound for 1,000 years, and life continues on earth in peace. Jesus, and his redeemed will rule and reign with him.  There are still people left on the earth.  The earth doesn't get destroyed until after the devil has been loosed and there is the war to end all wars.  Then there is a new Heaven and new Earth.

I've been trying to show you this whole time that heaven is exclusive to the 144K only and you think I was trying to say that they are on EARTH??!!! Man my communication is terrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I'm interested in knowing why you think the great crowd rules with Christ before and after the 1,000 years?  Also who are the people still on earth if they're not the great crowd or redeemed as you say?  Also why do you think the earth will be destroyed is it because of 2 Peter 3:7-10? If so did the Earth and Heaven in Noah's day get destroyed(2 Peter 3:5-6)? Moreover what would fire do to stars and elements in space that are already intensely hot?  ???

I tried to stay on topic and I explained even more why I used the scriptures I used, if i'm still off-topic to you then I don't know what else I can do I tried, if it was because of me mis-citing a scripture then i'm sorry.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 10:10:37 pm by teflonfanatic »

Annella

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Okay, this is getting really messed up and it's time to stop.  Every time you post, you have doubled the questions, and it throws things totally off topic.  You are going in all different directions.  It's impossible to understand a Biblical concept to it's end when it keeps getting mucked up with other questions that have nothing to do with it.  Enough is enough.

There is no way I can untangle everything you are asking in the last post because it sounds as if you are totally confused, and asking 10 things at once, and you have those 10 things in the same hat, and you keep adding more questions and levels to the same 10 things.  Scripture is not hard to interpret because scripture interprets scripture. There are months of study in the questions or statements I believe you are trying to make.  I don't have the time, and these questions are not Salvational issues. You don't need them to be saved.  Time will give us all the answers of Revelation, and what will actually be.

I can gather from some of your posts that we do disagree a lot on scripture, and I'm going to leave it at that. This is getting confusing when it doesn't need to be.  My Bible tells me that God is not the author of confusion, so I end it now.

Note:  Following the 12 tribes of Israel, and tracing them through the Bible will tell you why some names are different, but they are the same 12 tribes.  The study spans generations, but the same tribes.  Start there.



« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 01:22:34 am by Annella »

EAngels

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As stated in Titus 3:4-5 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He save us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy.
God knows who repent and accepts HIM as his Saviour. Then, struggling to follow him as Holy no matter how hard it is, in order to be deserving on His kingdom.

teflonfanatic

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Okay, this is getting really messed up and it's time to stop.  Every time you post, you have doubled the questions, and it throws things totally off topic.  You are going in all different directions.  It's impossible to understand a Biblical concept to it's end when it keeps getting mucked up with other questions that have nothing to do with it.  Enough is enough.

There is no way I can untangle everything you are asking in the last post because it sounds as if you are totally confused, and asking 10 things at once, and you have those 10 things in the same hat, and you keep adding more questions and levels to the same 10 things.  Scripture is not hard to interpret because scripture interprets scripture. There are months of study in the questions or statements I believe you are trying to make.  I don't have the time, and these questions are not Salvational issues. You don't need them to be saved.  Time will give us all the answers of Revelation, and what will actually be.

I can gather from some of your posts that we do disagree a lot on scripture, and I'm going to leave it at that. This is getting confusing when it doesn't need to be.  My Bible tells me that God is not the author of confusion, so I end it now.

Note:  Following the 12 tribes of Israel, and tracing them through the Bible will tell you why some names are different, but they are the same 12 tribes.  The study spans generations, but the same tribes.  Start there.





I see questioning your responses throws the topic off and is apparently evil to you. I learn by gaining understanding(being inquisitive) with the help of God's spirit.
Scripture DOESencourage reason and logic and questioning etc

Romans 12:1-2, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, Acts 17:11, Proverbs 2:1-12, 1 John 4:1

1 Peter 3:15 reads But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.

That's what I demanded and you shut me down, i'm going to make a trinity thread next month, i'll ask one question at a time and cite scriptures but I won't post them, I hope you will be there  :'(!

Annella

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Okay, this is getting really messed up and it's time to stop.  Every time you post, you have doubled the questions, and it throws things totally off topic.  You are going in all different directions.  It's impossible to understand a Biblical concept to it's end when it keeps getting mucked up with other questions that have nothing to do with it.  Enough is enough.

There is no way I can untangle everything you are asking in the last post because it sounds as if you are totally confused, and asking 10 things at once, and you have those 10 things in the same hat, and you keep adding more questions and levels to the same 10 things.  Scripture is not hard to interpret because scripture interprets scripture. There are months of study in the questions or statements I believe you are trying to make.  I don't have the time, and these questions are not Salvational issues. You don't need them to be saved.  Time will give us all the answers of Revelation, and what will actually be.

I can gather from some of your posts that we do disagree a lot on scripture, and I'm going to leave it at that. This is getting confusing when it doesn't need to be.  My Bible tells me that God is not the author of confusion, so I end it now.

Note:  Following the 12 tribes of Israel, and tracing them through the Bible will tell you why some names are different, but they are the same 12 tribes.  The study spans generations, but the same tribes.  Start there.





I see questioning your responses throws the topic off and is apparently evil to you. I learn by gaining understanding(being inquisitive) with the help of God's spirit.
Scripture DOESencourage reason and logic and questioning etc

Romans 12:1-2, 1 Thessalonians 5:21, Acts 17:11, Proverbs 2:1-12, 1 John 4:1

1 Peter 3:15 reads But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect.

That's what I demanded and you shut me down, i'm going to make a trinity thread next month, i'll ask one question at a time and cite scriptures but I won't post them, I hope you will be there  :'(!


Nothing is evil to me except the enemy and his works.

Um, you did not ask me about the hope within me.  I also stated that what we were discussing were NOT Salvational issues....am I right?  That would be in accordance of the hope that is within me (Salvation).  We were discussing prophecy.  While you think I'm shutting you down (your words).  I merely realize that I cannot give you what you want.  We interpret the scriptures of prophecy very differently.....that's all.

I have many things to attend to as a Minister, and this forum is just a sideline.  I come here to make my $3 a month with posts.  Please don't "demand" anything, as that is not the right spirit.  In fact, you misquoted the scripture of I Peter 3:15.

I Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. (KJV)

My Salvation is based on Act 2:38 of the Bible.  I've repented, been baptized in Jesus Name, and been filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.  That's the "hope" that is within me.  Christ in me the hope of Glory (Colossians 2:27 (b)).

Take care.......

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