This topic is locked, no replies allowed. Inaccurate or out-of-date info may be present.

  • Print

Topic: Are you a good person according to God's standards? Good Enough To Go To...  (Read 20023 times)

amyrouse

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Silver Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1274 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah.  I have yet to meet one that hasn't.  

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

EDIT:

But not only that... the second most important being in the universe?  Uh... so this means you have issues with the trinity?  God-Jesus-Holy Ghost are one and the same, not separate beings... so why would you claim Jesus was the second most important being?  I would think that since, according to Christian belief, Jesus is God that Jesus would be the most important being, not standing in line.  You believe he died to wash away your sin so that salvation is available to you, so who could be more important than that?

I honestly don't understand a great many of the things you profess, although you do seem to be steadfast in your belief.  Either you need to take more time in crafting your responses so they are clearer or you need to do more study because you contradict yourself and you contradict the Bible.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 06:17:33 pm by amyrouse »



Annella

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 2342 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah.  I have yet to meet one that hasn't. 

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

Uh Amy, there are Messianic Jews that believe in Jesus as the Messiah.  There are also organizations called "Jews for Jesus" that believe in Jesus as the Messiah.  There are Jews in my organization (denomination) that believe in Jesus, that He was the Messiah.  While the majority of Jews do not, there are more and more who are coming to the knowledge of Jesus being the Messiah. 

amyrouse

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Silver Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1274 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah.  I have yet to meet one that hasn't. 

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

Uh Amy, there are Messianic Jews that believe in Jesus as the Messiah.  There are also organizations called "Jews for Jesus" that believe in Jesus as the Messiah.  There are Jews in my organization (denomination) that believe in Jesus, that He was the Messiah.  While the majority of Jews do not, there are more and more who are coming to the knowledge of Jesus being the Messiah. 


Messianic are not Jews.  Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah.  Please check out that link.



Annella

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 2342 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God.  You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.

Acts 2:34 reads  34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,

To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?

If you read what I said, I said that g-d does not want us to judge including upon the afterlife.  Any speculation about whether or not someone has ascended to heaven or gone to hell or merely died and is now in non-existence is judgment, and it is not for us to determine.  I have no interest in speculation about the afterlife because it is not for me to know at this point in time.  I will find out (or not find out) soon enough when I die.  My interest lies in reading the holy books, interpreting them to the best of my ability, and living the best life I possibly can.

I will, though, speak up when I see someone making hasty and/or false judgments.

1. I'm not passing judgment the bible is, admittedly though I have to admit the bible saying those lesser then John the baptist doesn't automatically mean he didn't go to heaven according to the bible, though it's clear THE BIBLE NOT ME says David did not ascend to the heavens(meaning he didn't go to heaven)

Acts 2:34 reads  34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,

2. If you don't learn how the afterlife works in this life your going to believe every story about it not knowing if it's true or not. Essentially your going to fall for myths.

3. If the bibles saying something and i'm just showing you what it says is it me or the bible passing judgment for example GOD can't do two things lie and be a man, i'm I passing judgment on his own word(THE BIBLE) says he can't do those things?

Titus 1:2 Reads 2 upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,

Numbers 23:19 Reads

God is not a man that he should tell lies,
Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret.
Has he himself said it and will he not do it,
And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?

Now I ask you again am I passing judgment on God when his own word says he can't lie and is not a man or even son of mankind(JESUS)??!!!


You are taking this scripture out of context, and what was happening at that time.  Balak had gotten Balaam to try to curse Israel.  The scripture was a "parable"(moral teachings) see verse 18.  The parable was for Balak. God was saying (through Balaam), that He was not like Balak (man/sinful flesh), or that He should repent.  Only sinful man needs to repent.....not God.  God could NEVER be sinful flesh......He is God!  Or like Balak, to bless or curse because he wanted to come against Israel.  That the promises to Israel were unbreakable by God.  The blessings upon Israel were not lies or empty promises, and they could not be broken because God spoke them, and established them forever.

Nest verse: Numbers 24:20 - Behold, I have received commandment to bless' and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Balaam speaking).  In other words, God could not reverse it because He established Israel forever. He made this promise and cannot lie as God.

You really need to take scriptures in their proper context and why they were written, what was happening, the dispensation of that happening, the times and customs of the day, etc.

The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses).  Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7.  It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10.

However....back to the topic of the thread:  The Bible says none of us are good....not one.  Even the righteousness of the righteous is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).  It also says we are all as an unclean thing. We don't get good to come to God.  We come to God to get good.  Which, is a lifetime of work and submitting to God and His Word.  Nobody can get to heaven by just doing good all the time.  There is a plan of Salvation to follow and steps to take to be redeemed to be found worthy of heaven.  Only God can make us worthy for Heaven.  Man does not have it in himself to be worthy.  God is the potter, and we are the clay.


So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?

Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN

"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses).  Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7.  It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."

I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved?  Righteous overmuch?

Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!

Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.

The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.

More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

You are throwing out scriptures or portions of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other, and confusing the issue being discussed.  God is NOT the author of confusion.  Scripture interprets scripture and the Word flows together.

Many times, God spoke of His humanity (Jesus) or His diety (God).  Sometimes He spoke of both in some scriptures, and sometimes His diety, humanity, and Spirit (Holy Ghost).

In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray.  He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would).  He is God in the midst of them and not man.  He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises.



Now.....get your Bible and read the 7th Chapter of Revelations.  The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, and it lists all 12 tribes, and there were 12,000 taken from each tribe.  These are full Jews (Children of Israel). Now....look at:

Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.  And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So lets recap shall we:

1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb

These were mentioned AFTER the 144,000 were sealed.  This is a multitude without number.  The redeemed.

Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?

We are grafted into the covenant of the Jews promise when we are redeemed (saved).  We are the Children of Abraham by redemption.  However, we are gentiles, grafted into the true vine......not Jewish.  There are feasts, covenants, and recognitions of such that the Jews are ordered to remember forever (Passover). We as gentiles are not.  Circumcision was a covenant that God made with the Hebrew children.  It was a type and shadow now of the redeemed, and being circumcised of the heart. There are many types and shadows of the of the Old Testament, that point to Jesus, and the Salvation plan.  However, I'm a gentile, not a Jew.  Amy is Jewish.  She was born Jewish.  Our redemption grafts us into the promises and covenants, but we are not by flesh...Jews.

Once saved, always saved?  I don't think so:  Where in the Bible does it say that?  In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite.  You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.

Heres a scripture for you if you don't think God was not a man,  He was Jesus!

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two).  We can do that.  However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.  

Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings?  Righteous overmuch?  What do you mean by that?  Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT".  I did not scream anything.  Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't.  I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life.  I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist.  Would you like to compare credentials.  Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge.  I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world.  That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.

 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:03:30 pm by Annella »

jcribb16

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Platinum Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 5309 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 72x
Amy, I firmly believe, according to Scripture, that Jesus is the Messiah.  I'm trying to better understand why Jews don't believe that He hasn't fulfilled the prophecy of Messiah.  I know what I have studied, and I know that in the Old Testament, Israel is the chosen, but something happened to change things with Israel and Jews. And I'm assuming since Jews are still waiting for Jesus to come for the first time (am I correct about this?), that that is why they don't use the New Testament.

Annella, you have given a lot of time to your answers. You are doing great, with Scripture back-up, with clarifying answers. :)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:57:42 pm by jcribb16 »

Annella

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 2342 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah.  I have yet to meet one that hasn't.  

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

Uh Amy, there are Messianic Jews that believe in Jesus as the Messiah.  There are also organizations called "Jews for Jesus" that believe in Jesus as the Messiah.  There are Jews in my organization (denomination) that believe in Jesus, that He was the Messiah.  While the majority of Jews do not, there are more and more who are coming to the knowledge of Jesus being the Messiah.

Messianic are not Jews.  Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy of the Messiah.  Please check out that link.

Messianic assemblies are Jews/non Jews that take Judaism, and some Christian beliefs and combined them.  They mostly believe that Jesus is the second person in the Godhead, which is not correct either.  There are also assemblies that call themselves Jews for Jesus.  These are Jews that believe that Jesus was the Messiah.  While you may not have met any Jews that believe as Christians, some Jews do believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

The majority of Jews....as yourself, do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, because you reject the New Testament and it's teachings.  Christians do believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and my denomination goes one step further and believes that Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

jcribb16

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Platinum Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 5309 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 72x
More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

Uh, whoa... all Jews reject Jesus as being the messiah.  I have yet to meet one that hasn't.  

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

EDIT:

But not only that... the second most important being in the universe?  Uh... so this means you have issues with the trinity?  God-Jesus-Holy Ghost are one and the same, not separate beings... so why would you claim Jesus was the second most important being?  I would think that since, according to Christian belief, Jesus is God that Jesus would be the most important being, not standing in line.  You believe he died to wash away your sin so that salvation is available to you, so who could be more important than that?

I honestly don't understand a great many of the things you profess, although you do seem to be steadfast in your belief.  Either you need to take more time in crafting your responses so they are clearer or you need to do more study because you contradict yourself and you contradict the Bible.

The way I've learned it is that God the Father is usually named first in the Trinity. He was the one over all from the Creation forward. Yes, there is God the Son, being Jesus, who was born of a virgin, and so has human qualities, and then there is God the Holy Spirit, who is our Comforter until Jesus comes again.  But, yet, they are all in one: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:00:57 pm by jcribb16 »

amyrouse

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Silver Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1274 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist.  I celebrate the differences in people.  Just wanted to clarify that for you.  I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.

For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile.  By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT.  I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith.  When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted.  I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability.  I hope this makes sense.



teflonfanatic

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 702 (since 2009)
  • Thanked: 2x
If someone goes on how they feel instead of what their holy book says there going on about their own beliefs and not their God.  You said God told us not to judge if he was good or not, however i'm not judging whether he was good or not, on going by one verse that says those lesser then John the baptist will go to heaven. David was clearly a good man but Acts 2:34 clearly says he didn't go to heaven.

Acts 2:34 reads  34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,

To use an Abraham's bosom limbo theory is to explain how people didn't go to hell(common grave) or hellfire according to christendom and still didn't go to heaven is pushing it a bit. Interestingly enough Job 14:13 doesn't use the word hell in most translations but uses the word grave or sheol. It also says God will protect him or conceal him, is this playing with text or does it mean God will protect some in hellfire?

If you read what I said, I said that g-d does not want us to judge including upon the afterlife.  Any speculation about whether or not someone has ascended to heaven or gone to hell or merely died and is now in non-existence is judgment, and it is not for us to determine.  I have no interest in speculation about the afterlife because it is not for me to know at this point in time.  I will find out (or not find out) soon enough when I die.  My interest lies in reading the holy books, interpreting them to the best of my ability, and living the best life I possibly can.

I will, though, speak up when I see someone making hasty and/or false judgments.

1. I'm not passing judgment the bible is, admittedly though I have to admit the bible saying those lesser then John the baptist doesn't automatically mean he didn't go to heaven according to the bible, though it's clear THE BIBLE NOT ME says David did not ascend to the heavens(meaning he didn't go to heaven)

Acts 2:34 reads  34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,

2. If you don't learn how the afterlife works in this life your going to believe every story about it not knowing if it's true or not. Essentially your going to fall for myths.

3. If the bibles saying something and i'm just showing you what it says is it me or the bible passing judgment for example GOD can't do two things lie and be a man, i'm I passing judgment on his own word(THE BIBLE) says he can't do those things?

Titus 1:2 Reads 2 upon the basis of a hope of the everlasting life which God, who cannot lie, promised before times long lasting,

Numbers 23:19 Reads

God is not a man that he should tell lies,
Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret.
Has he himself said it and will he not do it,
And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?

Now I ask you again am I passing judgment on God when his own word says he can't lie and is not a man or even son of mankind(JESUS)??!!!


You are taking this scripture out of context, and what was happening at that time.  Balak had gotten Balaam to try to curse Israel.  The scripture was a "parable"(moral teachings) see verse 18.  The parable was for Balak. God was saying (through Balaam), that He was not like Balak (man/sinful flesh), or that He should repent.  Only sinful man needs to repent.....not God.  God could NEVER be sinful flesh......He is God!  Or like Balak, to bless or curse because he wanted to come against Israel.  That the promises to Israel were unbreakable by God.  The blessings upon Israel were not lies or empty promises, and they could not be broken because God spoke them, and established them forever.

Nest verse: Numbers 24:20 - Behold, I have received commandment to bless' and He hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Balaam speaking).  In other words, God could not reverse it because He established Israel forever. He made this promise and cannot lie as God.

You really need to take scriptures in their proper context and why they were written, what was happening, the dispensation of that happening, the times and customs of the day, etc.

The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses).  Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7.  It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10.

However....back to the topic of the thread:  The Bible says none of us are good....not one.  Even the righteousness of the righteous is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).  It also says we are all as an unclean thing. We don't get good to come to God.  We come to God to get good.  Which, is a lifetime of work and submitting to God and His Word.  Nobody can get to heaven by just doing good all the time.  There is a plan of Salvation to follow and steps to take to be redeemed to be found worthy of heaven.  Only God can make us worthy for Heaven.  Man does not have it in himself to be worthy.  God is the potter, and we are the clay.


So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?

Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN

"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses).  Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7.  It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."

I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved?  Righteous overmuch?

Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!

Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.

The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.

More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

You are throwing out scriptures or portions of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other, and confusing the issue being discussed.  God is NOT the author of confusion.  Scripture interprets scripture and the Word flows together.

Many times, God spoke of His humanity (Jesus) or His diety (God).  Sometimes He spoke of both in some scriptures, and sometimes His diety, humanity, and Spirit (Holy Ghost).

In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray.  He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would).  He is God in the midst of them and not man.  He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises.



Now.....get your Bible and read the 7th Chapter of Revelations.  The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, and it lists all 12 tribes, and there were 12,000 taken from each tribe.  These are full Jews (Children of Israel). Now....look at:

Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.  And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So lets recap shall we:

1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb

These were mentioned AFTER the 144,000 were sealed.  This is a multitude without number.  The redeemed.

Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?

We are grafted into the covenant of the Jews promise when we are redeemed (saved).  We are the Children of Abraham by redemption.  However, we are gentiles, grafted into the true vine......not Jewish.  There are feasts, cove
nants, and recognitions of such that the Jews are ordered to remember forever (Passover). We as gentiles are not.  Circumcision was a covenant that God made with the Hebrew children.  It was a type and shadow now of the redeemed, and being circumcised of the heart. There are many types and shadows of the of the Old Testament, that point to Jesus, and the Salvation plan.  However, I'm a gentile, not a Jew.  Amy is Jewish.  She was born Jewish.  Our redemption grafts us into the promises and covenants, but we are not by flesh...Jews.

Once saved, always saved?  I don't think so:  Where in the Bible does it say that?  In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite.  You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.

Heres a scripture for you if you don't think God was not a man,  He was Jesus!

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two).  We can do that.  However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.  

Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings?  Righteous overmuch?  What do you mean by that?  Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT".  I did not scream anything.  Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't.  I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life.  I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist.  Would you like to compare credentials.  Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge.  I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world.  That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.

 


Quotes i'm responding to are numbered in order you said them.

1. "In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray.  He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would).  He is God in the midst of them and not man.  He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises."

Thank you for the context of the verse but he's still saying he's not a man.

2. Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.  And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So lets recap shall we:

1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb

Right but these are after the 144K, that are bought from the earth or sealed as Revelation 7:4 reads

Revelation 14:1-5 makes it clear that the 144K are bought from the earth and are the first fruits of mankind.

14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

The ones that are not of the 144K the other sheep are of the earth, these are the ones that are going to reside on it forever. The verse below is a prophecy(I checked the context)

Psalms 37:29 reads 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

Although it says land in KJ, verses 27 and 28 imply an unlimited time, who possesses a land forever?

3. Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?

Just quoting so I can explain it easier and for emphasis

 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

To show you that the 144K are from all of mankind and not just Hebrews/Israelites, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but no one has been proven by science to be apart of the line of Jesus(that is Hebrew/Israelite) which is the same as being a fleshly Jew(literal Jew) but you can be a spirituality Jewish even though someone is a gentile as I already pointed out in my previous post. Hebrews/Israelites are one people, their not part of the native american tribes, they don't speak Icelandic though it might have been possible during pentecost  :-, Hebrews/Israelites are not hawaiian and they didn't have a nation God didn't approve of(unless they sinned), I can go on and on but I think you get the point. This also corresponds to Revelation 14 because only the 144K are mentioned to be singing a new song and they are also the only ones mentioned to rule as kings over the earth.

This is in harmony with Matthew 22:28-30 28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.







teflonfanatic

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 702 (since 2009)
  • Thanked: 2x
Admin please don't warn or delete my post I ran out of room on my quote!!!! Srry for the double post

4. Once saved, always saved?  I don't think so:  Where in the Bible does it say that?  In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite.  You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.

Your right I totally screwed up that one I meant to say I do not believe in once saved always saved, also the JW's DO NOT BELIEVE THIS EITHER, I just wanted to clarify that i'm not yelling or screaming at you just speaking up.

5. 1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I made a thread about most of the trinity "proof texts" already, if you want the link I can give it to you.

6.  Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two).  We can do that.  However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.  

We can do that and thank you for pointing out I was cherry-picking, as for  points that was actually what I was doing, I was sure that the scriptures followed the point I was making though?  :'(

7. Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings?  Righteous overmuch?  What do you mean by that?  Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT".  I did not scream anything.  Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't.  I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life.  I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist.  Would you like to compare credentials.  Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge.  I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world.  That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.

I'll start off by quoting myself "On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved?  Righteous overmuch?" This was a question and not a statement, I was asking a question to all good people go to heaven believers based on the verses in 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 were Paul says the holy ones(that is the born again ones that go to heaven) will judge both the angels and the world(this is paraphrased). As for the scream "OUT OF CONTEXT" comment i've been watching too many debates srry. I never claimed to know all about the bible and I agree we're still learning.  I will also not like to compare credentials.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 09:39:23 pm by teflonfanatic »

jcribb16

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Platinum Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 5309 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 72x
Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist.  I celebrate the differences in people.  Just wanted to clarify that for you.  I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.

For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile.  By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT.  I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith.  When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted.  I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability.  I hope this makes sense.


Thank you, Amy, for clarifying for me.  Let me digest on that a bit, when I'm not so sleep-deprived-headed, and I'll get back with you.  :)

Annella

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 2342 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist.  I celebrate the differences in people.  Just wanted to clarify that for you.  I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.

For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile.  By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT.  I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith.  When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted.  I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability.  I hope this makes sense.

Not really......

Is not Jewish being Hebrew?  Being Jewish is a race is it not?  So you are saying that if I was born Jewish, but got a revelation that Jesus was actually the Messiah, I would not be considered Jewish anymore?  In other words, I would be shunned by my Jewish family and friends?  I have heard of this happening.

What I understand you saying....but I could be wrong.  That in order to be viewed as Jewish, I need to follow Judaism only?  My race is white (caucasian), but I'm a Christian.  Just because I'm a Christian, does not change my race of still being white.

Anybody who is Christian believes in both the OT and NT.  They would not be Christian otherwise. Christians are those who heard the Salvation message and acted on it.  Believing on, and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount to being Christian, and obtaining forgiveness/remission of sins, redemption, and renewing. All needed to enter Heaven.

If you actually believe all the other books (including the Bible) like the Koran, etc., you would have nothing but contradiction and confusion.  As far as Eve eating the forbidden fruit, it was not a positive act that we need to preserve it or honor it in anyway.  It's a lesson in the downfall, and the start of sinful nature in man.  through  the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all born in sinful flesh.


Annella

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 2342 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
Quote
So your agreeing that just being good doesn't guarantee that you go to heaven yes? Also you state that the numbers verse is a parable? Ok, let me get a verse where God actually says so ok?

Hosea 11:8-10 reads I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Here God himself says he is not man(flesh and blood human), his gender on the other hand if it is possible for spirits to have genders anyway will probably be male. Even if you scream OUT OF CONTEXT, it doesn't change the fact that God himself said he was NOT MAN

"The 144,000 are all Jews....not JW's (Jehovah Witnesses).  Taken out of every tribe of Israel (12,000 for each tribe).....Revelation Chapter 7.  It also references the redeemed in Chapters 9-10."

I'm sad you didn't get to read my comment on this here it is again, The article also starts out by saying only 144K JW's will be saved, I never once heard that only JW's were in the 144K in my whole entire life of studying with the witnesses, I was recently taught that it was between the person and God JW or not. Personally I feel i'll be saved(meaning I do believe in once saved always saved) whether i'm chosen to judge the world or if i'm chosen to be subject to Christs co-rulers in the future. On second note why so much emphasis on getting the ability to judge the world(born again) as being saved?  Righteous overmuch?

Now off my comment, you said that Revelation 7 is talking about the 12 tribes of Israel, however even if I was to agree with you the 144K is from every tribe, tongue and nation TODAY!!!!

Revelation 5:9-10 reads . 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

All the Jews were Hebrews, to say that only Hebrews where in every tribe, tongue and people and nation is stretching it.

The verse above is also in harmony with Galatians 3:28-29 which reads 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.

Also Romans 2:28-29 . 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.

More importantly though the majority of Jews rejected the messiah, the second most important being in the universe.

You are throwing out scriptures or portions of scriptures that have nothing to do with each other, and confusing the issue being discussed.  God is NOT the author of confusion.  Scripture interprets scripture and the Word flows together.

Many times, God spoke of His humanity (Jesus) or His diety (God).  Sometimes He spoke of both in some scriptures, and sometimes His diety, humanity, and Spirit (Holy Ghost).

In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray.  He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would).  He is God in the midst of them and not man.  He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises.

Now.....get your Bible and read the 7th Chapter of Revelations.  The 144,000 are from the 12 tribes of Israel, and it lists all 12 tribes, and there were 12,000 taken from each tribe.  These are full Jews (Children of Israel). Now....look at:

Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.  And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So lets recap shall we:

1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb

These were mentioned AFTER the 144,000 were sealed.  This is a multitude without number.  The redeemed.

Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?

We are grafted into the covenant of the Jews promise when we are redeemed (saved).  We are the Children of Abraham by redemption.  However, we are gentiles, grafted into the true vine......not Jewish.  There are feasts, cove
nants, and recognitions of such that the Jews are ordered to remember forever (Passover). We as gentiles are not. Circumcision was a covenant that God made with the Hebrew children.  It was a type and shadow now of the redeemed, and being circumcised of the heart. There are many types and shadows of the of the Old Testament, that point to Jesus, and the Salvation plan.  However, I'm a gentile, not a Jew.  Amy is Jewish.  She was born Jewish. Our redemption grafts us into the promises and covenants, but we are not by flesh...Jews.

Once saved, always saved?  I don't think so:  Where in the Bible does it say that?  In fact, there are scriptures that say just the opposite.  You can lose out with God, if you do not adhere to the scriptures, and live your Salvation day by day.

Heres a scripture for you if you don't think God was not a man,  He was Jesus!

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:  God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Now....if you want to address a thought according to scripture (one or two).  We can do that.  However, when you bounce around, and take a scripture here, and another one there, you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. You are picking and choosing, and taking scripture out of context to make a point which anyone can do.  

Are you making in front of me or being sarcastic about my postings?  Righteous overmuch?  What do you mean by that?  Even if you scream "OUT OF CONTEXT".  I did not scream anything.  Get off your high horse, and either talk to me as another human being or don't.  I did not insult you, and don't appreciate being insulted. Okay, I got that you were raised a JW all your life.  I'm an Ordained Minister/Evangelist.  Would you like to compare credentials.  Nobody knows it all (Bible), and we are all still learning, so if you think you know it all, I will leave you alone in your knowledge.  I don't remember addressing ruling the world scenario, nor put any emphasis on judging or ruling the world.  That's another subject altogether and have no idea why you threw it in there.[/quote]

Quote
Quotes i'm responding to are numbered in order you said them.

1. "In Hosea, again, at the beginning of the Chapter it mentions the promises that God made toward Israel and how Israel/Ephraim went astray.  He is saying although they are as backsliding children, He cannot turn the judgement they deserve because of the promises and covenant He made with them.....again, he is God and not a man to destroy them (as man would).  He is God in the midst of them and not man.  He is saying that they should look to Him as their God and remember His promises."

Thank you for the context of the verse but he's still saying he's not a man.

2. Revelation 7:9-10
After this, I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.  And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So lets recap shall we:

1. They were a great multitude with no number.
2. All Nations, Kindreds, Peoples, and Tongues.
3. Clothed in white robes.
4. Washed in the blood of the Lamb

Right but these are after the 144K, that are bought from the earth or sealed as Revelation 7:4 reads

Revelation 14:1-5 makes it clear that the 144K are bought from the earth and are the first fruits of mankind.

14 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

The ones that are not of the 144K the other sheep are of the earth, these are the ones that are going to reside on it forever. The verse below is a prophecy(I checked the context)

Psalms 37:29 reads 29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.

Although it says land in KJ, verses 27 and 28 imply an unlimited time, who possesses a land forever?

3. Why would you quote Revelations 5:9-10 when it clearly lists who is what in the whole 7th Chapter of Revelation?

Just quoting so I can explain it easier and for emphasis

 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

To show you that the 144K are from all of mankind and not just Hebrews/Israelites, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but no one has been proven by science to be apart of the line of Jesus(that is Hebrew/Israelite) which is the same as being a fleshly Jew(literal Jew) but you can be a spirituality Jewish even though someone is a gentile as I already pointed out in my previous post. Hebrews/Israelites are one people, their not part of the native american tribes, they don't speak Icelandic though it might have been possible during pentecost  :-, Hebrews/Israelites are not hawaiian and they didn't have a nation God didn't approve of(unless they sinned), I can go on and on but I think you get the point. This also corresponds to Revelation 14 because only the 144K are mentioned to be singing a new song and they are also the only ones mentioned to rule as kings over the earth.

This is in harmony with Matthew 22:28-30 28 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.


For one thing, we are not talking about who is going to rule the earth.  We are not talking about the proof of trinity over one God either.  However, I addressed this in another thread myself.   Either stay on topic, or you can debate this by yourself.  I've conversed with JW's before, and you all like to confuse the topic with throwing out a bunch of scriptures that don't even pertain to the topic.  It does not lend credence to your side of debate, it only confuses the issue, which I believe you do deliberately.

I wrote down clear and concise scriptures on the 144,000.  You either believe it or not.  I gave proof (in scripture) of the 12 tribes of Israel (are Jews and nobody else), and the 12,000 are taken from each tribe, to total 144,000.  I also pinpointed the redeemed, who is the multitude without number. ALL is in the 7th Chapter of Revelation.

Now.....if you don't believe what the Bible says, then we have nothing to discuss.  What I do see here is you are pulling all kinds of scripture into this that have NOTHING to do with what we are discussing.  

Your scripture you threw out there In Matthew 22:28-30, is NOT in harmony at all with what we are discussing (your words above)  It is about a woman marrying and her husbands dying, and who's wife shall she be in the resurrection.....on and on.  Clearly not what we are talking about!!!!

What are the scriptures about possessing the earth?  What has that got to do with the 144,000?  We are not talking about possessing the earth.  That is a total different study and subject altogether.

What in the world does Psalms 37:29 have to do with what we are talking about?  Yes, it says that the righteous shall inherit the land and dwell therein forever.  So ???

Since you cannot seem to stay on topic, but are throwing in scriptures here and there that have nothing to do with what we are talking about, I don't have time for games like this.  It's like you are snarling the subject up as much as possible, and trying to hide the true meaning under a bunch of scriptures that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

In Genesis Chapter 49, it tells of the twelve tribe of Israel.
1. Rueben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Zebulun
6. Issachar
7. Dan
8. Gad
9. Asher
10. Naphtali
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin

All Hebrew Children..........

Revelation Chapter 7: 4-8
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
 All the tribes are mentioned in this Chapter of being sealed. Twelve thousand from each tribe.

Another scripture you quoted: In Rev 14:1-5  Yes, they are from the earth, and they are the firstfruits, they have not defiled themselves with women, which lends to them being male, virgins point to them being young. Maybe even the unborn, or children.  Doesn't remove the fact that they are still Jews.

Firstfruits: according to Strongs Concordance (Rev. 14:4) definition in the Old Greek (536):
     aparche, ap-ar-khayd'; from a compound or 575 and 576; a beginning of sacrifice, i.e. the (Jewish) first-
     fruit (fig.) first-fruits (copied verbatim from Concordance Greek definition of firstfruits)

What makes you think that the 144,000, and the righteous are the only ones on earth during the 1,000 year reign or years of peace where the Lion lays down with the lamb, etc. etc?  This is the time when satan is bound for 1,000 years, and life continues on earth in peace. Jesus, and his redeemed will rule and reign with him.  There are still people left on the earth.  The earth doesn't get destroyed until after the devil has been loosed and there is the war to end all wars.  Then there is a new Heaven and new Earth.
 
However, this is off topic.


    

« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 02:44:42 pm by Annella »

amyrouse

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Silver Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 1274 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist.  I celebrate the differences in people.  Just wanted to clarify that for you.  I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.

For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile.  By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT.  I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith.  When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted.  I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability.  I hope this makes sense.

Not really......

Is not Jewish being Hebrew?  Being Jewish is a race is it not?  So you are saying that if I was born Jewish, but got a revelation that Jesus was actually the Messiah, I would not be considered Jewish anymore?  In other words, I would be shunned by my Jewish family and friends?  I have heard of this happening.

What I understand you saying....but I could be wrong.  That in order to be viewed as Jewish, I need to follow Judaism only?  My race is white (caucasian), but I'm a Christian.  Just because I'm a Christian, does not change my race of still being white.

Anybody who is Christian believes in both the OT and NT.  They would not be Christian otherwise. Christians are those who heard the Salvation message and acted on it.  Believing on, and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount to being Christian, and obtaining forgiveness/remission of sins, redemption, and renewing. All needed to enter Heaven.

If you actually believe all the other books (including the Bible) like the Koran, etc., you would have nothing but contradiction and confusion.  As far as Eve eating the forbidden fruit, it was not a positive act that we need to preserve it or honor it in anyway.  It's a lesson in the downfall, and the start of sinful nature in man.  through  the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all born in sinful flesh.

Your race is your race regardless of your faith.  If you claim to be of the Jewish faith, though, you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.  I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept.  "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" are not of the Jewish faith but Christians because they believe Jesus was the Messiah.  People who practice Judaism do not.  Its all in the link I posted.

I didn't say I actually believed all the other books, just that I read and study them.  I thought my statement was clear when I addressed Jcribb saying that I only profess one faith.  Just because one reads other books doesn't mean they follow that line of thinking.  I read all four Twilight books, but that doesn't mean I believe vampires are real or that Edward Cullen was a dreamboat.

We have already determined that we don't agree on the meaning behind the act of Eve eating the apple.  I can't help but wonder if you are just trying to pick a fight with me here, Annella.   :BangHead:



Annella

    US flag
    View Profile
  • Gold Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 2342 (since 2010)
  • Thanked: 0x
Jcribb, I have absolutely no issue with those who believe Jesus was the Messiah, and I consider them my brethren just as much as I do Jews, and just as much as I do those who are agnostic or atheist.  I celebrate the differences in people.  Just wanted to clarify that for you.  I read about and study all religion, and profess my faith in one: Judaism.

For everyone else: The thing is, once someone takes the step to believe Jesus was the Messiah, that ceases to make them Jewish in faith, whether they were born Jewish or gentile.  By definition, those who believe Jesus was the Messiah are Christian in faith, whether they practice OT or NT.  I also believe in the Noachide laws, and that, should heaven exist, it is not restricted to just those who practice a certain faith.  When it comes to the TaNaKh, New Testament, Qu'ran, the Tao, or any other religious text, though, I believe that careful study and personal interpretation are warranted.  I believe that once Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that it became imperative that we don't let her act go to waste and use the capacity for that knowledge to the best of our ability.  I hope this makes sense.

Not really......

Is not Jewish being Hebrew?  Being Jewish is a race is it not?  So you are saying that if I was born Jewish, but got a revelation that Jesus was actually the Messiah, I would not be considered Jewish anymore?  In other words, I would be shunned by my Jewish family and friends?  I have heard of this happening.

What I understand you saying....but I could be wrong.  That in order to be viewed as Jewish, I need to follow Judaism only?  My race is white (caucasian), but I'm a Christian.  Just because I'm a Christian, does not change my race of still being white.

Anybody who is Christian believes in both the OT and NT.  They would not be Christian otherwise. Christians are those who heard the Salvation message and acted on it.  Believing on, and accepting the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount to being Christian, and obtaining forgiveness/remission of sins, redemption, and renewing. All needed to enter Heaven.

If you actually believe all the other books (including the Bible) like the Koran, etc., you would have nothing but contradiction and confusion.  As far as Eve eating the forbidden fruit, it was not a positive act that we need to preserve it or honor it in anyway.  It's a lesson in the downfall, and the start of sinful nature in man.  through  the disobedience of Adam and Eve, we are all born in sinful flesh.

Your race is your race regardless of your faith.  If you claim to be of the Jewish faith, though, you don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.  I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept.  "Jews for Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" are not of the Jewish faith but Christians because they believe Jesus was the Messiah.  People who practice Judaism do not.  Its all in the link I posted.

I didn't say I actually believed all the other books, just that I read and study them.  I thought my statement was clear when I addressed Jcribb saying that I only profess one faith.  Just because one reads other books doesn't mean they follow that line of thinking.  I read all four Twilight books, but that doesn't mean I believe vampires are real or that Edward Cullen was a dreamboat.

We have already determined that we don't agree on the meaning behind the act of Eve eating the apple.  I can't help but wonder if you are just trying to pick a fight with me here, Annella.   :BangHead:

No Amy I'm not trying to pick a fight, but your statement was not clear to me.  Don't make this personal because it isn't.  Your correct, we don't agree on a lot of things by far.  However, I really (truthfully) did not understand what you were implying in your post.

  • Print
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
6 Replies
1991 Views
Last post September 01, 2010, 06:59:31 pm
by makedoughonline
13 Replies
3244 Views
Last post May 08, 2010, 05:59:07 am
by Rastov
good gosh

Started by Cubboo « 1 2 » in Offers

15 Replies
3580 Views
Last post January 10, 2013, 03:41:39 pm
by athomas226
2 Replies
956 Views
Last post March 02, 2014, 09:20:49 am
by o2bnocn
14 Replies
1706 Views
Last post May 10, 2020, 10:44:00 am
by Donnamarg323